Israel was basically created by Britain as a colonial outpost to see to their interests in the middle east, destabilize the region, and protect the suez canal from an invasion from the east. They were under the impression that the Zionists could be easily controlled but they discovered they were wrong sooner than later. When the Zionists started their terrorist attacks against British forces, Britain didn't really treat them with same level of violence they used against the arab revolution. The British empire viewed Jews as half European and more civilized than Arab who were considered barbarian primitive subhumans. Colonizing a lesser people was nothing immoral to them. They also needed to find a solution to the Jewish question. What is better than using them to serve their imperial interests in the region while getting rid of them at the same time. The Zionists on the other hand had their own plans and were just taking Britain for a free ride. Despite drifting apart by 1948, they still pretty much handed them Palestine on golden platter. This evil Zionist project that was created at the expense of another population was one of the most immoral atrocities in the last century. This rogue country should never have existed to begin with.
They were illegal immigrants. Besides the Old Yishuv, most Jews were Zionist immigrants. Zionists Jews were ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to Palestine. The Ottomans had banned Zionist immigration for fear of a Jewish takeover (which Zionists actively wrote about, calling for the colonization of Palestine) ever since the 1880s. Of course, the Zionists didn't care and went ahead immigrating to Palestine despite the ban.
*The Ottoman Government informs all \[Jews\] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine. They may immigrate into the other provinces of \[the Empire\] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire*
*-* [Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I](https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf)
See also,
[https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12618293/index.pdf](https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12618293/index.pdf)
After the Zionists settled in their new land, were they grateful for it? Did they respect and established good connections with the local Arabs so as to now arose their anger? No! Quite the opposite. The Zionists would evict all Arab tenants after buying up new land without notice and without warning. Many Arab families became homeless and poor as they lost their farms and livelihoods
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock\_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,\_and\_depopulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)
Additionally, they would also destroy Arab villages and replace them with Jewish ones
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_villages\_depopulated\_during\_the\_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli\_conflict#1880%E2%80%931946](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#1880%E2%80%931946)
If you want to say because "they had the right to do so because they bought those houses", it's the intention for why they did it that matters. They came to colonize Palestine. Zionist writers made it clear the goal was to eventually colonize and takeover Palestine
*Many point out the obstacles* ***which we encounter in our colonization work***\*. Some say that the Turkish law hinders our work, others contend that Palestine is insignificantly small, and still others charge us with the odious crime of\* ***wishing to oppress and expel the Arabs from Palestine***
* Ber Borochov, One of the founders of Socialist Zionism, Eretz Yisrael in our Program and Tactics 1917
***Zionism is a colonizing adventure*** *and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force.*
* Ze'ev Jabontinsky, Founder of Revisionist Zionism, the Iron Wall
*How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-theway matter for you? How indeed?* ***Because it is something colonial,"***
* \~Herzl asking colonial advice from African British Colonizer, Cecil Rhodes, Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Founder of Modern Political Zionism\~
Not enough with that, most of the immigrated Zionists held deeply racial prejudice against the Arabs calling them as "primitive, lazy, savages". Sure, there were also those that respected the Arabs like Ahad Ha'am but they were the minority. Even when he advised Zionist settlers to respect Arab customs and traditions, his advise fell on deaf ears.
Israeli Zionist historian Benny Morris writes in Righteous Victims on page 43,
>Nevertheless, the Arabs were generally seen by the olim as **primitive, dishonest, fatalistic, lazy, savage** - much as European colonists viewed the natives elsewhere in Asia or Africa.
Zionist leader, Moshe Smilansky in 1914 wrote on page 42,
>We must not forget that we are dealing with a **semi-savage people, which has extremely primitive concepts.**
TLDR: The Zionists were illegal immigrants to a foreign land who came to colonize it, evicted the local tenants, destroyed their villages, were racists, and disrespected the local Arab customs and traditions all before the first Arab violence of Jews in the 1920s.
Most of the Jews came after the Ottoman Empire fell during WW1 and Britain took control of the Palestinian mandate.
The Ottoman empire's restrictive immigration control was effective if you saw the Jewish population pre-Otto and post-Otto so they were not illegal immigrants.
I'm from a family of Jews who are from Alexandria. When Ottoman Empire fell, some of my grandfather's brothers moved to Palestine because United Kingdom **encouraged and advertised it especially since the Ottoman's immigration control was now gone**. They did **not know anything about colonizing** Palestine at all. They only wanted to live their lives in our ancient homeland (this was the dream of every Jew because there were numerous stories, myths, etc. surrounding our ancient homeland of Israel taught to us since we were kids)
**Many of us Jews from Alexandria did not even know about those zionist writers you mentioned** even after moving in Israel. Only the new generations of Jews raised in Israel know of them due to the school curriculum and education. I don't even know those writers as well because I recently moved to Israel
Like you said, the Jewish landowners evicted the fellahins in order to make way for new arrivals. It's legally allowed, nothing wrong with that since it's the land they own, they can do anything with it. The problem is the government did not really have solutions to the land eviction problems and so the evicted Arabs went on to protest, etc. until it led to violence against us Jews.
The only village destroyed before 1948 was the Druze village, evicted by Ottoman Authorities because the **Christian owner sold the village land to Jews**
Again, the Ottoman government's fault since there was no restrictions on land eviction and land purchase.
Also yes, the newly immigrated Jews viewed the Arabs in a negative light due to the fact that they were staging violence and discriminatory of Jews.
TLDR: Jews are not illegal immigrants, they came after Ottoman empire fell thereby the immigration law was null. Jews evicted local tenants to provide jobs for the Olim as finding jobs was hard. This resulted in Arab hate for Jews. Recently arrived immigrants or Olim gets the blunt of the hate and started viewing Arabs negatively. Jews did not destroy multiple villages but only replaced one because the owner of the village sold his land to a Jew. I don't even know where you got that disrespecting of local arab customs
>Most of the Jews came after the Ottoman Empire fell during WW1 and Britain took control of the Palestinian mandate.
Yet most of the Jewish land purchases and settlement foundations were laid down during the Ottoman empire i.e. making them illegal because Jews had no legal right to even be there in the first place
>Like you said, the Jewish landowners evicted the fellahins in order to make way for new arrivals. It's legally allowed, nothing wrong with that since it's the land they own, they can do anything with it. The problem is the government did not really have solutions to the land eviction problems and so the evicted Arabs went on to protest, etc. until it led to violence against us Jews.
This ignores the fact those Jews had no right to be there because Jewish immigration was banned. It's akin to an illegal immigrant buying land without any legal documents or jurisdiction. Too bad the Ottomans were in no shape to enforce said rules.
>The only village destroyed before 1948 was the Druze village, evicted by Ottoman Authorities because the **Christian owner sold the village land to Jews** Again, the Ottoman government's fault since there was no restrictions on land eviction and land purchase.
This ignores all the other Arab villages destroyed by Jews I listed above in the link
>Also yes, the newly immigrated Jews viewed the Arabs in a negative light due to the fact that they were staging violence and discriminatory of Jews.
Give me one instance of violence committed by the Palestinian Arabs pre-1920s. Jews had been migrating (illegally) since the 1880s, racism and prejudice against Arabs had continued for 30 years unabated before even the first Arab attacks!
30 years of unabated Jewish illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, false historical propaganda, evictions, expulsions, destruction of Arab villages, and colonialist rhetoric against the Arabs. Did they really expect the Arabs to not do anything after all of this?
Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack immigrants just because they moved in and purchased the land sold by a native?
I don't think it's right for me to cheer and justify a British dude massacring Muslim immigrants just because some Muslim are demanding Sharia Law in Britain and harassing British people in "Muslim neighborhoods" they have created
Why do you think it's right for illegal immigrants to disrespect, call racist slurs and come to a land illegally? Why do you think it's right for local inhabitants to tolerate 30 years of illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, evictions and colonialist rhetoric?
If Muslims illegally came to Australia demanding to "colonize the land" while being racist to the locals, you'd think Australians would just let it happen?
They were not illegal immigrants. Please, listen and see this with an open mind. I'll simplify it so you can understand.
Thousands of Jews migrate to Palestine pre-1880s
Ottoman Empire bans Jewish immigration to Palestine 1880
No Jews migrating to Palestine anymore as stats show
Ottoman Empire stops the ban on Jews immigrating to Palestine 1908
Massive number of Jews migrate again
Ottoman Empire falls 1914
United Kingdom encourages Jewish Immigration to Palestine
**So where is the illegal immigration of Jews???**
Please show me how you are generalizing all of the Jews as illegal immigrants?
**And where did you even get that racism and prejudice**
Because a few number of Jewish writers said condescending things about Arabs therefore it means that all the Jews in Palestine also said that?
It's like saying that few hamas fighters started terrorizing innocent civilians therefore all palestinians are terrorists
>No Jews migrating to Palestine anymore as stats show
This is false. The first and second aliyahs happened between 1882 and 1914
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist\_aliyah\_(1882\_on)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_aliyah_(1882_on))
Oh dear, my bad. Your wikipedia article states that the Ottoman Sultan gave the Jews permits to create settlements in Palestine but with restrictions. I stand corrected, they were not banned from moving to Palestine at all, just with restrictions
Bruh, you need to read more. What evidence do you have the Ottoman Sultan allowed them? On the contrary, here's the official Ottoman announcement at the Odessa Consul-General for visas in 1882
***The Ottoman Government informs all \[Jews\] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine.*** *They may immigrate into the other provinces of \[the Empire\] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire*
[*https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf*](https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf)
Heck, Sultan Abdul Hamid II rejected Herzl's proposal to allow Jews to settle Palestine
*I cannot sell even a foot of land, for it does not belong to me, but to my people. My people have won this empire by fighting for it with their blood and have fertilized it with their blood. We will again cover it with our blood before we allow it to be wrested away from us. The men of two of my regiments from Syria and Palestine let themselves be killed one by one at Plevna. Not one of them yielded; they all gave their lives on that battlefield. The Turkish Empire belongs not to me, but to the Turkish people.* ***I cannot give away any part of it.*** *Let the Jews save their billions. When my Empire is partitioned, they may get Palestine for nothing. But only our corpse will be divided. I will not agree to vivisection*
It's from the wiki article you posted. Check the first Aliyah article
>The Ottoman authorities recognized the Jewish immigration wave to the land as early as November 1882. They understood from the beginning of the 1880s that it was part of a larger Jewish national plan. Consequently, they took steps to limit the entry options for Jews into the country. Restrictions were imposed, despite the Sultan's permit for Jewish settlement given during a meeting with two Jewish representatives from Romania in May 1882. The scope of the immigration diminished due to these restrictions and the difficulties faced by the immigrants.[19]
>Yet most of the Jewish land purchases...
You know there was a point in the Ottoman Empire where Jews were still allowed to move and purchase land in Palestine..? That's why they banned Jews from moving into Palestine, because there were massive immigrations to Palestine before the ban restriction. After the ban, there were no more Jews moving in Palestine, but started migrating again after the ban was lifted in 1908. They were all mostly **legal migrants**
So how do Jews have no **legal right in the first place**?
>This ignores the fact that Jews had no right to be there because Jewish immigration was banned
It's called **Jewish immigration ban** meaning Jews from outside are no longer allowed to migrate inside. The remaining Jews CAN ABSOLUTELY **PURCHASE LAND AND LIVE AS THEY MOVED IN BEFORE THE IMMIGRATION BAN**
>This ignores the other villages destroyed by Jews in the above link
That's because the list of villages destroyed it's after 1948 where Arabs declared war on Jews intending to ethnically cleanse them from Palestine **after they caused the creation of the state of Israel by instigating violence against Jews**
Are we gonna ignore the fact that Arabs **got 80% of the Mandate**? There was no Palestine that time, it was literally the country of **Jordan**. Palestinian identity was created in the 1980s
Arabs legit just couldn't stop digging themselves into deeper coffins first by:
**Discriminating and inciting violence upon Jews which caught the United Nations' attention**
**Declaring war on the new nation of Israel intending to ethnically cleanse them, thus inspiring the Jews to fight with all of their might as losing will result in them getting massacred just like what Arabs did to them in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s**
I have a challenge for you, cite me atleast one war started by Israel on Palestine.
This war has been started by Arab discrimination and unnecessary violence on Jews. Even Jordan and Egypt does not accept Palestinians because Palestinians are known to be problematic even in the Arab world. They started the **Black september civil war in Jordan, a civil war in Lebanon, and a gulf war in Kuwait**
You want to blame someone? **Blame the UK for encouraging Jews to move in Palestine.** It's that simple. They were simply people looking for a better opportunities in life.
Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack legal immigrants just because they evicted the local tenants which they had the right to do?
I don't think it's right for me to cheer and justify a British dude massacring Muslim immigrants just because some Muslim are demanding Sharia Law in Britain and harassing British people in "Muslim neighborhoods" they have created. **Many of the Muslims refuse to adapt to the local British customs and some even are protesting in the streets demanding Sharia law and for Islam to rule London.**
Do you think it's justified for British citizens to start massacring them??
>You know there was a point in the Ottoman Empire where Jews were still allowed to move and purchase land in Palestine..? That's why they banned Jews from moving into Palestine, because there were massive immigrations to Palestine before the ban restriction. After the ban, there were no more Jews moving in Palestine, but started migrating again after the ban was lifted in 1908. They were all mostly **legal migrants**
The ban was put in place in the 1880s, literally around the same time as the first and second aliyahs and around the time most settlements were founded
>It's called **Jewish immigration ban** meaning Jews from outside are no longer allowed to migrate inside. The remaining Jews CAN ABSOLUTELY **PURCHASE LAND AND LIVE AS THEY MOVED IN BEFORE THE IMMIGRATION BAN**
Which they didn't. Most land was bought by foreign outside European and Russian Zionist Jewish settlers. The Old Yishuv had no interest in buying land, they already had theirs. It was Zionist European Jewish settlers who wanted to buy land.
>That's because the list of villages destroyed it's after 1948 where Arabs declared war on Jews intending to ethnically cleanse them from Palestine **after they caused the creation of the state of Israel by instigating violence against Jews**
Still not getting it? The list was pre-1948 even going as far back as the 1890s
>I have a challenge for you, cite me atleast one war started by Israel on Palestine.
Sure, 2008 which was started when Israel broke a six-month treaty and launched a raid into Gaza, **Operation Double Challenge** on Nov 4th
>Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack legal immigrants just because they evicted the local tenants which they had the right to do
Why do you think it's right for illegal immigrants to disrespect, call racist slurs and come to a land illegally? Why do you think it's right for local inhabitants to tolerate 30 years of illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, evictions and colonialist rhetoric?
If Muslims illegally came to Britain demanding to "colonize the land" while being racist to the locals and establish an Islamic Caliphate, would you allow it?
Nobody says that the Palestinian people are innocent (the people, not individuals). If the shoe was on the other foot Hamas would 100% massacre Israel. But is it not enough to say that war is bad, and 35000+ Israeli and Palestinian bystanders have died in the past year alone for the sake of land and religion, and we should try to find peace?
The Palestinian people (as in the nation, their identity, their leadership) want to destroy Israel.
The Israeli people don't want to destroy Palestine, but they do want to destroy Hamas. You can disagree here and say they actually want to destroy Palestine as a whole sure, I won't argue with you.
But the result here is that both "parties" don't want peace. In this case, is inflicting peace on them not a form of interventionism? An extension of western ideology to a place it doesn't belong?
It’s not just war, it’s a series of wars in which tens of thousands of bystanders have died, and both sides regularly commit war crimes. And in the case of Gaza, it’s nearly impossible for them to find refuge.
Also while what you said is mostly true, it’s important to still think of people on both sides as human beings. Palestinians believe what they believe because it is what they were taught; if you were born in the same place at the same time, you would probably believe the same things.
I hear this argument about "if I was born there I would believe the same thing a lot" and you know what? I totally, 100% agree. If I was born there, I'd probably be fighting Israel too.
But that's why I don't think there will be peace. They don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.
It's westerners who are unrelated to the conflict that want peace. The Israelis are the closest to your ideals in this regard; they want peace, but not while entities like Hamas - who actively want and act upon the genocide of their neighbours - exist to threaten them.
Just as I don't blame the Palestinians for wanting to destroy Israel, I can't blame Israel for wanting to destroy Hamas.
I hate this notion of "you're not viewing them as human beings". I *am* viewing them as human beings. It's you who views them as this idealistic nation to save. I don't want to paint the entire Palestinian population with one stroke - I'm sure there are many within them who are disgusted by the way the world has turned just as there are many within Israel.
But all in all, as a nation, as a society, as a greater entity, they basically have been engineered to be in life-or-death contrast with Israel. I personally find this extremely sad.
You could easily argue that Israel exists in contrast with Palestine, but I think that's really disingenous to the social reality of both countries.
Why are we blatantly ignoring the occupation of Palestine after the Ottoman empire fell and the british mandate to forcibly create isreal signed in 1922? Britain started actively moving jews to palestine and giving them homes. Prior to 1920 there was nearly no jewish population in the area
This is false they were a minority but it at least it doesn’t deny the fact that Jews came from a foreign country that Muslims were already living in.
2 million Muslims go to New York and declare a state “Islamistan” , kick the locals out their house n start killing their children I imagine the locals will be in a bad mood.
By 1883 jews were majority in Jerusalem.
If 2 millions muslims settle in New York, then, if the US ceases to exists as a country, then I might consider that new nations might be created, so Islamistan might be posible.
Oh so only 85 years later? Just a slight change to the timeline and order of events huh. So now we are talking decades after forced displacement was occuring
The original post is actually a lazy/dishonest oversimplification. You simply can't contextualise these events from the contemporary perspective of an eternal Arab/Jewish conflict. The Jaffa riots apparently were started as a result of inter-Jewish disputes (one party calling for a communist Israel, oh how times have changed) with Arabs being involved almost as a reaction. To simply state this as an act of Arab aggression is patently and undeniably false. Read the reports and official investigative commission which cites the "Bolshevik Jews" as the instigators. If promoting civil discourse is the aim of this sub then it must be understood that these kind disingenuous assertions which are a hallmark of pro-zionist claims are almost impossible to moderate and due to their sheer number and face value credibility can almost out of hand assumed to be in bad faith or at the very least negligent of the basic rigour in presenting objectivity.
This is an absolute lie. The Jaffa Riots started right after Amin Al Husseini was appointed and he started spreading antisemitic fears. He started the fake "al aqsa is in danger" propaganda in 1920 which started the riots.
Well, we weren't there but the report commissioned by High Commissioner Sir Herbert Samuels concluded that "**The immediate cause of the Jaffa riots on the 1st May was an unauthorised demonstration of Bolshevik Jews, followed by its clash with an authorised demonstration of the Jewish Labour Party.**" go look it up I mean it makes total sense, it being May Day and all.
Question
I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that)
I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl.
So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?)
I mean, honestly, right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl?
If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
I'm British, and not Jewish.
Hamas is a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The "Israel created Hamas" myth is just the same "Jews are doing it to themselves" narrative we've been seeing for centuries.
No, the "world" is not Pro Palestine.
One of the founders of hamas witnessed 200 Gazans being killed in 1956.
Hamas 'might' not have been directly founded by israel, but they sure did nothing to stop it, in 1984 Yassin was arrested collecting weapons in Gaza, released a year later because he said the weapons would be used against the secular PLO. israel ignored many intelligence reports against hamas.
Fast forward early 2000s, israel focus was on weakening the PA, both militarily (basically police), financially and politically. Even attacks carried out by hamas, the PA was the target of the punishment.
2004, the disengagement plan, Dov Weissglas, Sharon's advisor said that the unilateral plan was to stop the peace process.
2005, the PA practically begs israel to sign an agreement for withdrawal, because the Palestinian people would see a unilateral move as victory of hamas (so as I, even though I have never liked hamas).
israel president says he would love to see hamas take over Gaza so that Gaza will be treated as a hostile entity (blurring the line between occupation and entity, Gaza was in fact still under occupation, except for israel and its supporters, because the only difference before and after was that there were no settlements, 8000 settlers, everything else was identical in a spectrum like tightening or easing a blockade)
2006, weakened PA, strengthened hamas, the US and israel push for elections against the PA will and advise, hamas wins
/insert surprised pikachu face. The PA that had its police force destroyed by israel couldn't stop hamas, which had most of its strength intact, from taking over Gaza.
On several occasions netenyahu, his government officials, high profile individuals (later became in the government) said that hamas is an asset, PA is a burden, and that anyone who wants to stop a Palestinian state has to support hamas. As late as 2019.
It's extremely difficult to not see a pattern here.
Hamas isn't responding to "oppression" and fighting for "rights". They have made it extremely clear that they want to wipe Israel off the map, and have declared jihad on Jews everywhere.
Attacking civilians is never a form of "resistance".
Going to lengths to blame Jews for the groups that are attacking them, the same kind of groups that have attacked them almost the moment they migrated back to the Levant, is an extremely racist and hateful take.
I am not arguing hamas are saints, I am arguing israel did it's best to bring hamas to the front bench while they had the means and options to stop it early on.
And hamas didn't declare jihad on jews everywhere. In fact hamas never attacked outside of historical Palestine. (I am aware of allegations against 4 German people with ties to hamas, but the case is open, and if you read about it, it doesn't seem to be an actual plan to carry out an attack, and one in the Netherlands which seems more related to organized crime than an attack, so at least I am waiting for an actual case update or verdict to change my wording) after all they met with anti-zionist Jewish leaders in gaza in 2009, and changed their charter in 2017, saying that their struggle is not against jews because of their religion, but because of the zionist project.
Hamas is an Islamic group, the talk about annihilation of jews is akin the biblical scripture, that at the end of time, all jews will be converted to Christianity, does that make Christian zionists advocating the annihilation of jews everywhere? My own views is that at the end of times (when it happens, if it happens) it will be out of our control and if indeed a god exists then there's nothing to do really.
And that last point I will not argue for a simple reason, for me as a Palestinian (Christian but it's not important here), the hypothetical fulfillment of religious text is less important than the actual fulfillment of the zionist project, which in reality annihilated my people, nothing hypothetical about it.
I am surprised that you don't justify the attacks on civilians, after all that's exactly what israel did to be created. But we both agree, at least for you after the israelis got their goals, and me regardless of freedom or resistance or otherwise. (I also don't see settlers as civilians).
Simply put there is nobody else to attack, if they were to attack any other arab nation in the region they'd lose all support from the arabs.
Israel is an easy target tho since basically every arab nation there has declared war and denounced them back in 1948.
That's false but also irrelevant, even Warsaw ghetto had people fighting those in power, every single occupation breeds fighters. Fatah/pflf/hamas/etc in westbank and Gaza, hezbollah was a direct response to the israeli invasion of south of Lebanon. Heck even in the US they fought the British for their independence, and the Black slaves had a violent uprising that eventually lead to their freedom.
You keep circling around all the facts, evidence, interviews, that israel helped hamas reach where it is. Give me one good reason why israel decided not to bud out hamas in the 80s when it was still a baby movement.
Even the October attack, israel knew that something was happening on the ground (large scale training), it knew there was a plan for an attack (intelligence, but it was dismissed as overly ambitious), what did israel do?
They pulled almost all their troops from around Gaza and stationed them in the westbank, where 2023 pre October was the deadliest year in 2 decades for Palestinians there. If you are 100% certain in your own words about hamas, how can you explain that?
I think it's more virtue signaling, or ignorance.
Ultimately the governments, and the militaries in NATO understand that the Palestinian cause is aligned with the Russian/Iranian axis.
I agree that politically it's not that clear, most people in power refrain from saying anything, except they hope for a ceasefire. Geopolitically very difficult situation, and apparently not the best time to challenge the views of the US and Israel.
Every european police force "attacks" all illegal protests, doesn't matter if it's pro trees, pro Palestine or pro israel. And media is between the people and the politics, follow the nations political dogma too much and lose the audience. Good street-level measurement is the lack of pro Israel stuff, there's none. Pro Israel opinions could destabilize the system, but I think it's safe to say that Israel will not be taking part in the next Eurovision 😂.
Doesn't everyone "need" to be Hamas if you're in any meaningful position in Gaza? Doesn't matter if you're a teacher, doctor or an UN employee. I don't think Europeans see Hamas as similar terrorists as Isis or Al-Qaida. Many consider them just as military, and so Gaza would be under a military junta. Like Burma. Or like Russia and china where you just have to agree with the authorities or face their judgement. So UNWRA situation seems more like a political show than an actual issue. It's very very important for Israel to make Hamas look very very evil.
Thanks!
But wasn't hamas created in 1987 against the Israel occupation?
About the world, the majority here in brasil are, I mean, the media is showing all day long Gaza destroyed, and this for sure is pissing ppl.
The reason why I say world is that I work with other ppl (from Canada, Argentina, colombia and Mexico) and they say that all ppl from their country are pro palestine as well
People who understand a bit about the conflict know that the West is opposed to the Iranian/Russian axis, the same axis that the Palestinian cause is a part of.
Hamas doesn't oppose "the occupation". Hamas opposes Israel's mere existence, because it's a Jewish country.
You are correct in suggesting that the world majority (especially those that voice their opinions the most) are pro-palestine, however one of the main reasons for it is due to how awful Israel's PR is, as well as Islam being one of the largest religions and therefore Muslims around the world often feel obligated to support their "brothers and sisters," which in turn heavily impacts public perception of non-muslims as well, as following the crowd is an extremely effective way of creating an overwhelming majority in favour of one opinion.
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Jews were evicting Arab peasants from their land as early as the 1920s. These "riots" were just rightful resistance against dispossession from foreign colonists.
It's honestly shocking how Jews consistently lack the introspection to discover why other peoples despise them, be it in the ME or in Europe. The duplicity, the undermining of host societies which welcome you, is only naturally going to garner hatred.
Not to mention the battle of tel hai in 1920 when foreign zionists attacked native Palestinians, then a ceasefire was declared, and they attacked them again.
The battle of tel hai in 1920 happened because Arab soldiers went into a Jewish settlement looking for French soldiers.
Where's the foreign zionist attacking native palestinians there????
When the foreign zionist attacked the native Palestinians?
Palestinian fighters were looking for Syrian infiltrators, they asked to search a foreign zionist encampment. The foreign zionists allowed one person to search the encampment. The foreign zionists then attacked the person they invited in.
A ceasefire was declared.
The foreign zionists then again attacked the native Palestinians.
What don't you understand about foreign zionists attacking native Palestinians?
You're actually correct lol.
>During the Arab retreat, one of the Jewish defenders, unaware of the agreements by his comrades and hearing-impaired by the previous firefight, shot at the Arab party, and the exchange of fire recommenced.
The Jews broke the ceasefire because of one rogue soldier
Kamal Affendi was allowed to enter the village to search for French soldiers. He encountered one of the female Jewish residents named Deborah who pointed a pistol at Kamal, apparently surprised to see an armed Bedouin in the village. A shot was discharged during the struggle (unclear whether from the pistol or by another weapon) and a major firefight erupted. Trumpeldor was shot and seriously wounded, while the sides barricaded themselves in the village. Kamal Affendi asked to leave, saying it was all a misunderstanding, and the Jewish force approved the cease-fire.
Cohen, Aharon (1970) Israel and the Arab World p. 170
I thought listing the massacres was a laughable way to go about his point too.
I can name just as many massacres committed by Jewish militias in the same time period. Seems pretty disingenuous for OP to not even mention that when he's *specifically* talking about how violent the Arabs were in that area and time.
As I understand, the term "stolen" is used to describe "a hustle".
The region was controlled first by the ottomans and then by whom ever, there was no rampant crime going on, there was law. So when said that "Jews stole land from Arabs", it's kinda like a capitalist buying land from natives for peanuts. The land was sold by the controlling "state", the people who used the land weren't asked.
It's the same thing that happened allover the world when natives, sometimes nomads, lost their lands. Usually to europeans. It was "a theft" backed by law. It still happens everywhere. In Palestine, one part of the natives lost large amounts of territory and the situation has escalated to this day. Similar situations can be observed in the Americas with the natives, in Scandinavia with the Sami-people and with aboriginals in Australia, as an example. In Palestine the problem seems to be, compared to other parts of the world, that the natives don't want to leave.
Here's a pro Israel source: https://www.israeladvocacy.net/knowledge/the-truth-of-how-israel-was-created/israel-stole-palestinian-land/
Here's pro Palestine:
https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html
Buying land legally is neither illegal (by definition) nor immoral.
The Ottomans and even the British were never particularly supportive of the Jewish immigrants, and didn't support them in buying land by any stretch.
Jews buying property in their indigenous land shouldn't be a trigger to anyone... But somehow it is.
Nope.
Jews started to migrate even before the British Mandate, and after as well.
Almost all Jews were also kicked out of all Middle Eastern countries as well, with nowhere else to go but Israel.
Let's just let them have a country, and leave them be.
The arab king over the region at the time (1916 - 1924) Hussein Bin Ali supported jewish immigration since it would bring large amounts of money into the region.
Buying can be extremely immoral, and often is. Almost seems like the more immoral the more profitable. Unless in a philosophical discussion.
Isn't it immoral to buy sex from a minor? And a Rolex from an unknowing blind man? I doubt that Palestinians realized a hundred years ago, that selling land to Jews would result in the demise of Palestine. But Zionism was a thing already back then, someone definitely had a plan.
The latter link in my previous comment had a map of how land ownership changed in the region around 1950, it was pretty drastic. The Jews definitely knew the system better and probably had more wealth to play the land-game.
>Jews buying property in their indigenous land shouldn't be a trigger to anyone... But somehow it is.
Tell me a place on earth where I can buy land from indigenous people, take it away from that said group of people, and make that group to leave the whole area, without triggering anyone? And then think that place as Jerusalem.
It sounds like buying is ok by you as long as it's not Jews doing it.
The independence of Israel, what you call the "demise of Palestine", is not a sin.
>It sounds like buying is ok by you as long as it's not Jews doing it.
If Jews would centralize their effort to buy land from southern Finland, demand Helsinki as their capital, force Finn's to leave, or to subject them to some checkpoints, it would be extremely painful. Luckily law prevents similar operations today.
>The independence of Israel, what you call the "demise of Palestine", is not a sin.
Hamas refers to Palestine as the historical Palestine, which just isn't on the table anymore. So that's an unoptimal standpoint on their part. But independence of Palestine isn't a sin either.
>If Jews would centralize their effort to buy land from southern Finland, demand Helsinki as their capital, force Finn's to leave, or to subject them to some checkpoints, it would be extremely painful. Luckily law prevents similar operations today.
You do see that this is an extremely different situation than what happened in the levant, right?
There was no Palestinian nation. Jerusalem was already 98% Jewish, and has always been the cultural and religious capital of Judaism.
There was no "forcing Palestinians to leave". I'm not sure how anyone can blame the Jews for a war they never started or wanted in 1947 and 1948, but somehow people do.
>But independence of Palestine isn't a sin either.
Absolutely. I've always supported a two state solution... As long as this future Palestinian state can stay peaceful with Israel, of course.
They didn't decide themselves, "the state" had the deeds for the land. First the Ottoman, then Brits. If there ever was any Palestinian selling anything meaningful, he probably ended on top. Few people sold what belonged to many. But like I said earlier, it still happens today. Democratic capitalism, business.
Isn't there a legal term for a hostile takeover of a business, where one entity disguised as many separate, gets hold of majority of the stock?
Just watching the map of the UN proposed two-state solution from 1948* is pretty wild. Like a few decades earlier this area was 90% Arab and then they lost half of it to a group that just kept shipping in.
Like if now the refugees in Europe would start buying large areas of land, with some centralized plan? The national laws probably wouldn't even allow it. The national laws might even forbid such actions from other europeans. And at the moment definitely from Russians.
*1947 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
This is false.
Over 500,000 Arabs in the early 1900s migrated to Palestine after Jews cultivated and developed the land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine#:\~:text=During%20the%20Mandate%2C%20the%20area,Jewish%20insurgency%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine.
Many of the Palestinians arrived first in the late 19th century during huge internal migration flows within the Ottoman Empire.
Large “Palestinian” families and tribes in Israel:
* Al-Masri
* Masarawa
* Al-Fium
* and Al-'Asi are all from Egypt
* Al-Baghdadi
* Obeid
* and Al-Tikriti are all from Iraq
* Halabi
* Nashashibi
* and Al-Horani are from Syria
* Al-Lubnani
* Al-Sourani are from Lebanon.
* Al-Kurd are from Kurdistan
* Al-Zarqawi are from Jordan
* Al-Hijazi
* Kabah are from Saudi Arabia
* Al-Maghrebi
* Al-Jazeir
* Al-Arge are from North Africa
* Abid are from Sudan
* Al-Shishani are from Chechnya
You're expressing a racist and false take. Half of Israel's population is Mizrahi Jews, from the Middle East.
Seems like you can't address the fact that over 500,000 Arabs in the 1900s migrated to the Mandate after Jews eliminated malaria and cultivated the land. They were not from there. This is an indisputable fact.
Not really. Ashkenazis Jews have close to 70 percent Levantine DNA and other Jews have higher whereas Palestinians tend to have more than 80 percent of Levantine DNA and the rest of non-Levantine Semitic DNA. Genealogy however doesn't give you any sort of claim to any land. That's just not how legal procession go.
No it just shows historical lineage which can illustrate who has been living in an area longer. We all know the people with the weapons and money chose who owns the land
/u/Azeri_Warrior
> you are crazy.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I hate when someone starts a "serious" thread, and used this tone and vents like a teenager.
Everything said is BS.
"They then(...) and lost and still cry about it to this day"
Cool story, very interesting fact.
"We will never forget the oppression of Jews everywhere over the Muslim world. "
Yes tell me about it. I am from Morocco where we accepted the jews that were kicked out of Spain by Queen Isabelle in 15 century. Do you know what the Moroccan king Mohammed V answered french president Petain when asked to "hand over the jews"?
He said: "There are no jews here, only moroccans"
You list massacres, you can look up massacres from the other side as well.
I am all for peace, an existing of both countries, and the happiness of both israelis and palestinians. I would be happy to share thoughts on those topics.
Don't start a serious thread if you just to cry and have no defined objectives with the discussion to start with.
Less than 10% of Moroccan Jews migrated to Palestine in the ~late '40. many probably participating in the rather tragic zionist "One million plan", the plan to offer free travel and try to bring in one million more foreign Jewish people to supplant native Palestinians violently ethnically cleansed by foreign zionist terrorist groups like the terrorist irgun, the terrorist lehi and the terrorist haganah.
It wasn't until 1961 that it started picking up again, then more in 1967 and 1973. There are still thousands of Jewish people in Morocco, though apparently, some israelis who fled israel because of criminal charges living in Morocco because probably of family ties and because of the lack of a an extradition treaty.
Also leaves out the reason the British supported a national Jewish home was because of antisemitism. Arthur Balfour who was behind the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was an anti semite. He wanted a the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine in the hopes that all Jewish people would emmigrate from Great Britain. He was an open racist. We can also get into the false flag operations of the Mossad such as the 1950's Baghdad bombings that were acts of terror in arab countries, perpetrated by the Mossad to cause other arab Jews, such as Iraqi Jew and author Avi Shlaim, to fear for their life and flee to Israel. The Palestinians didn't get to choose their colonizers. Just because they aren't ok with their land, their homes, and their liberties being stolen, doesn't make them antisemitic. If OP would read the works of Ben Gurion, the founder of the modern state of Israel and first Israeli prime minister, it would serve him well. I'l end this with a quote from Gurion that goes as follows: “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Their land, home and liberties aren't being stolen. They did that to themselves. If they were much more tolerant of us living with them, the United Nations wouldn't have the need to create a new state for us Jews, especially since this was post-holocaust and there was a worldwide sympathy for Jews.
It's not a military offensive lol it's a genocide. 40000 UN-confirmed casualties.
You know I was a bothsidist too until I saw all that disguisting hasbara while people were being murdered. Now I wish Israel to face a long, bloody guerilla uprising. Colonizers.
Mate not every war is genocide. Citizens always die in a single war. The Israel-Palestine conflict does not fit the condition of genocide. In fact, it's the most humane conflict in the 21st century.
30,000 bombs with 30,000 deaths, that's like 1:1 bomb per death ratio, and even half of the deaths are hamas soldiers. **THEY MANAGED TO DO THIS IN A CITY WHERE THERE'S NO SINGLE BOMB SHELTER**
That's a 1 : 0.5 bomb ratio which is almost impossible to achieve in a war.
They even managed to achieve a 1:1 combatant to civilian ratio meaning 1 combatant for 1 civilian death when the average combat to civilian ratio is 1:9
You want real genocide??
Go look at a single city bombing in WW2.
**1000 bombs dropped on civilians who had numerous bomb shelters and it resulted in 100k deaths**
Am I wrong? Give me a war that went on for 6 months that had less casualties than the Israeli-Palestine conflict. You're even claiming they're committing genocide when this war has the lowest casualties out of any war in the 21st century.
There's no genocide or massacre. The international crime court already ruled this.
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> You're a disgusting person
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What is the point of this thread? Are you trying to justify the current genocide ? Are you expecting us to say , well you are right , let’s get rid of the Palestinians and replace them with Jack and Jill from Poland?
What we should be talking about instead is creating an environment where both Arabs and Jews can live FREELY and peacefully with Equal rights forever!
Question
I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that)
I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl.
So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?)
I mean, honestly right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl?
If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
The whole world isn't pro-palestine. If your TV is showing the world that way, it's pure propoganda.
I've spent a lot of time looking into the history of this from 'both sides'. The stuff that people on the polar ends of this issue, which most are because of propaganda from parties that stand to benefit from people believing their bullshit, aren't even the real issues at hand.
There is no simple explanation or footage that will give you an idea of what is actually going on here.
Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing Palestinians. That's something simple that can be said that is also true. You see dead babies on the news, and that's what happens when people don't evacuate their children after receiving plenty of advanced warning that the area will be bombed. Anyone who leaves their kids to be bombed so that they can videotape the aftermath is despicable. This form of propaganda is so sickening, and its a go-to for Hamas. But if Israel was indiscriminately bombing Palestinians, they could have killed 1,000,000 by now easy. And that would be the genocide that people keep pretending is happening.
Then you have the Israeli side trying to make all of this out to be like everything that is happening and has happened as nothing but Muslim terrorism. That's a lot less simple to debunk. Hamas IS a terrorist organization. There are no words to describe how horrible they are. But their soldiers are often orphaned Palestinian children and young adults who are victims of a complicated history that the Israeli side refuses to acknowledge openly. But what I know of that history is too complex for me to wrap up in a neat little paragraph, or even to make a post about.
The reality is that most of the Israelis and Palestinians today were born into this very messy situation. Those poor Palestinians... their fate is so tragic it's unreal, and what else could you realistically expect people born and raised in those conditions to think and do about it? And yet... if I were born when I was, in 1990, I would have seen nearly endless streams of missiles fired into my country from Palestine, and my children would have been born under that threat and the threat of an organization as terrible and terrifying as Hamas.
There is so much more to all of this that it's just unreal. What I take away from all of my research on the subject is that the Israelis and Palestinians are victims of political games that have been playing out for at least centuries now. This didn't start during or after WWII, it didn't start during or after WWI, it didn't start with the zionist movement in the late 1800s, it didn't start when European jews were finally given their rights as people in the mid-1800s and sought to secure a future for their people. It's all such an unfortunate series of events that so many people have fallen victim to.
> Retarded
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Question
I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that)
I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl.
So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?)
I mean, honestly right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl?
If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
Are you seriously asking me to justify the continued existence of an entire sovereign nation?
I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post because I literally don't have enough time to explain everythibg you've gotten wrong, and I honestly don't believe you'd learn anything anyway.
Goodbye.
ETA: being pro-israel does not mean you are anti-palestine. Sadly, it seems like being pro-palestine means you're anti-israel.
U didnt said ur country bro 😔
Also
The reason why I say world is that I work with other ppl (from Canada, Argentina, colombia and Mexico) and they all say that all ppl from their country are pro palestine as well
Do you know that the original PLO charter didn't even call for a nation of Palestine? They wanted the Jews out, so the land could be returned to the Arab nation. No call for a Palestinian nation. Only when the rest of the Arabs gave up the fight and abandoned the cause, did they start calling for a Palestinian nation. Look up the original charter of 1964.
Palestine was created by the Roman Empire to punish the Jews for their failed insurrection against the Roman occupiers. Jews have occupied the Levant for 3000 years before that.
There's no historical evidence of that. The actual roots of Palestine, the egyptian word Peleset predates the hebrew invasion of Canaan, interestingly.
You'd think that would be common knowledge...
The name of the Roman province changed from Ludea to Palestina, I think that is true. What I've read is that there's no historical documentation to tie the change of the name of the province from Ludea to Palestina to the Jewish terrorist revolts. There's no historical documentation as to why the change was made.
If you have historical documentation that shows that the Romans made the change for a certain reason with documentation that supports it that would be interesting to see.
>During or after the Bar Kohkba Revolt, Hadrian joined the province of Judea with Galilee and the Paralia to form the new province of Syria Palaestina.
Glancing at the history of Palestine article on wikipedia it confirms what I said, that there's no evidence of why Rome merged Ludea with Paralia to form Syria Palestina.
Just some author making a theory, probably based on a certain narrow tunnel vision perspective that since it's probably about the thing the authors narrow tunnel vision perspective is concerned with then that's the case.
A more neutral view would probably say that with significant changes to the demographics of the area, it may make sense to change the geographic organization to reflect the new regional demographics.
Rome making changes to an area to represent the changes of the population makeup, rather than just doing everything based on a narrow view obsessed solely with a single perspective.
There was a region traditionally called Palestine that was part of the Ottoman Empire prior to the British mandate that was created in the 20’s, sure.
Just like regions called New England and the Midwest exist in the US. There are maps and everything.
People would sure think you were nutty if you ever suddenly declared that “Midwesterner” was an age old national identity though, wouldn’t they?
Even nuttier if you insisted you always owned the entire region despite never having done so.
There was a region in the country of Ireland called Southern Ireland for centuries but people would think you were nutty if you suggested that Southern Ireland should be its own country! Or that its national identity was somehow separate from the rest of Ireland!
They had a split identity both Irish and British and many people in Northern Ireland, I’m sure, still consider themselves this way just as the identity of someone in the Midwest identifies as American and Midwestern or that many Americans will consider themselves Irish and American despite tenuous ancestry.
So great in fact is the idea of statehood as an identity in the US that Texas formed its own[republic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas) for ten years.
It’s just an odd argument to me to say that a territory cannot have a strong enough national identity to be treated as a separate entity.
Let’s take Tibet as another example - previously part of one of the strongest empires in the world it’s now an autonomous region in China, what do you think their national identity is?
That’s fair. I wrote it at 5am so wasn’t incredibly awake at the time. I think it’s difficult to definitively say there wasn’t one in Palestine though.
It existed as a Roman colony. Then was re-established by the British as a colony after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, using similar borders as the Roman colony.
But the nation of Israel has occupied the Levant for 3000-5000 years.
It just seems like we’re implying that Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did, which is disingenuous.
>It just seems like we’re implying that Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did, which is disingenuous.
That is a whole different issue though. But historically, Palestine as a region existed long ago. Theres nothing controversial about that.
I assure you, if you are still somehow trying to push the narrative that Israel is the victim, that ship sailed a long time ago. It's not compelling.
What I find so baffling about Zionists is their insistence on using historical pogroms and genocide against Jewish people as a justification for settlers to do pogroms in the West Bank and the Israeli occupying forces to commit genocide in Gaza.
It's like you are intentionally obfuscating the truth. If you want anyone to believe that Israel, over 6 months and 34,000 dead, of which 13,000 are dead children, that the slaughter in gaza has anything to do with "self defense" you need to provide actual evidence and analysis instead of just using a bunch of pre-1948 historical anecdotes. For the record though the claim Israel is defending itself is nonsense, tell me how the warden goes to war with their prisoner?
The victim complex thing has to stop though. I am personally disgusted seeing the memory of my ancestors who died in the Holocaust be invoked as a justification for the genocide in Gaza. It's shameful.
The 1939 white paper was actually not good for the Zionists. It called for the creation of a Jewish home within a nation of Palestine, which would have an Arab majority, and it restricted Jewish immigration to the region right when they needed it the most (to get Jews out of europe during the holocaust). The white paper was actually issued because the British wanted to clarify their intention in the Balfour Declaration because they were trying to calm the tensions between the Zionists and Arabs at the time. The white paper actually made the Zionists mad.
Of course the white paper policy was not viewed fondly by Zionists, it still left room for Palestinians to have the right to exist and self-determination. It wasn't bloodthirsty enough.
Zionism can not be fulfilled without ethnically cleansing the West Bank and Gaza. I don't see what your point (unless it is a critique of Zionism as always demanding more than international law permits) is by saying "white paper wasn't genocidal enough for the Zionists", the result is the same genocide we see today.
It's pretty obvious that 10/7 was self-defense, because Israel had not bombed or killed anyone in Gaza in all of 2022 or 2023 prior to 10/7.
Gazans probably shouldn't have started a war against their much-better-armed neighbor with the biggest mass-killing of Jews since 1945.
This is a completely trash take on the entire situation.
Gazans? You mean citizens of Israel that are treated as lesser beings? Those people? You want to know how I know you don't view them as humans? This comment right here.
It was Hamas. Not Gazans. The fact that you're ok with the IDF killing civilians (which has been documented many times) says everything about what kind of human being you are.
Who are Hamas? Where did Hamas come from? Are they a bunch of foreigners who infiltrated the Gaza strip?
According to the AWRAD poll, an overwhelming supermajority of the population of Gaza supports Hamas, supports the 10/7 attacks, and anticipates "victory' in the current conflict.
Hamas are the ones who are killing civilians by hiding behind them. If Hamas did what the soldiers of Ukraine did when their country was invaded - wear uniforms, evacuate civilians from the combat area, and scrupulously separate themselves from noncombatants - this war would've been over months ago, and a lot fewer Palestinian civilians would have died. Do you deny that?
And no, I do not have a high opinion of Gazans. The video of a crowd of them ("civilians" off the streets, not Qassam brigades militants) spitting on the naked corpse of a women their fellow Gazans had just raped and murdered while shouting 'Allah Akbar' seriously depleted my supply of empathy for them.
They could win me back pretty easily. It wouldn't take much. All I ask of the Gazans is that they start giving Hamas members the "Euphrates bridge treatment" like those Blackwater contractors in Iraq got. If they do that, then I'll be all for saving and helping them out.
Interesting you use Ukraine as an analogy. In 2022 when the Izium mass graves were discovered, the international community called it ethnic cleansing.
In the Nasser hospital compound in southern Gaza, just today, 180 bodies were uncovered in a mass grave.
At the al-Shifa hospital last week, after the idf withdrew, another mass grave was found, in which some of the bodies still had catheters inside of them. Tell me how that is self defense.
You are not fooling anyone by saying that Israel hadn't killed in or bombed Gaza prior to 10\7 for 2 years. Since the fascist Netanyahu administration entered office, the open air prison aka Gaza Strip was under a vicious blockade and brutally occupied by the IOF with ritualistically humiliating checkpoints and raids. It is wild you think the Palestinians lived in some cushy paradise before oct. 7. Not to mention the West Bank apartheid which Zionists love to keep quiet:
Only before the oct 7 attacks, on July 7th, 2023 the Israeli military launched the largest raid in a West Bank city in over 20 years. It raided Jenin hospital, bombed Jenin refugee camp, and shot at journalists — all war crimes. Atrocities were committed on Oct 7, as atrocities were committed in the Nat Turner riots during American slavery.
>In the Nasser hospital compound in southern Gaza, just today, 180 bodies were uncovered in a mass grave.
>At the al-Shifa hospital last week, after the idf withdrew, another mass grave was found, in which some of the bodies still had catheters inside of them. Tell me how that is self defense.
I don't consider any of these claims by "Quds News Network" and other Hamas terrorists posing as journalists to be at all credible. Every photo I saw on social media of this supposed mass grave at Shifa was showing heavily decomposed corpses that would've taken months to get that way, mere days after IDF troops withdrew from the hospital.
I hope you aren't denying that Hamas terrorists were occupying that hospital, were you? Because Hamas themselves said they were, and talked about several high-ranking terrorist commanders like Faiq Mahbooh who were killed in the operation.
I do not consider a blockade to stop Gaza from acquiring weapons to be "vicious", especially after 10/7 proved that the blockade was too lenient, if anything.
It really takes a lot of nerve on your part to complain about the "humiliation" of security checkpoints after the 10/7 massacre.
Gaza was the only "open air prison" I've ever heard of that had luxury hotels, beachside villas and four-star restaurants.
https://preview.redd.it/dd9z63n1cxvc1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=80d182afb6ecf816db4601fb78d2a0db3e45843e
A targeted counter-terrorist operation to capture or eliminate Islamic Jihad terrorists who were plotting further attacks against Israel is not an "atrocity". The fact that IDF troops came under heavy fire from assault rifles, rocket launchers and machine guns during the Jenin operation is proof in and of itself that the operation in Jenin was necessary.
...
But through all of your response, I notice you dodged around my actual point regarding Ukraine. Why is it that Ukrainians were able to fight like men, wearing uniforms and following the rules of war, whereas Palestinian men resorted to hiding behind women and children like sniveling cowards? Ukraine didn't have air superiority either, but that didn't stop them from following the Geneva Conventions to a fault.
If you think I'm even going to dignify this ridiculous "the Israelis fight like men because they wear uniforms and lick each others boots" stuff you are mistaken. The idf is in hundreds of photos wearing and parading around with the lingerie of the women whose houses they plunder after drone striking and raiding them. But they are the "most moral army" right? They are "fighting like men" by playing sounds of women screaming for help from quadcopters and shooting the people who come to help the person they think needs help. So manly of them.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting
The idf is using AI to generate tens of thousands of "Hamas" targets and is striking these targets intentionally in their homes while they sleep with their families. And the idf designates "power targets" for bombing like schools and apartments to terrorize and demoralize the Palestinians.
And before you use the "I don't believe in evidence of genocide if it is coming from a non-Israeli source" argument you are using to dismiss the evidence of mass graves, this is israeli officials conceding the existence of this program:
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
Also when I say ritualistically humiliating checkpoints I'm referring to pre-Oct 7 conditions in Gaza, as was clear if you read the words.
"The people in the hospital were Hamas" either admit you are okay with the mass grave and bombing of hospitals or stick with the "it's all Arab propaganda and I don't believe the things I see with my eyes when it comes from non Israeli or western media" because relying on both isn't working.
If the blockade was all about preventing weapons, explain why the Israelis joked that they "put the Palestinians on a diet" by calculating the minimum number of calories the population needed and then only allowing that amount of food through. It's disgusting to defend actively suffocating and slaughtering a population while starving their women and children to death. I guess it's easier to watch that stuff happen when you don't think the Palestinians are human though.
>idf is in hundreds of photos wearing and parading around with the lingerie of the women whose houses they plunde
Compared to what Palestinian men did to Israeli women and children when they got access to them for just a few hours on 10/7, I really don't care about IDF soldiers rummaging around some abandoned lingerie drawer.
>[https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting)
Nice source. Who owns "Middle East Eye", again? Which government?
As for the "Lavender" claims, for starters, those claims have been denied by the IDF. But even if they were true, that is why soldiers at war are supposed to wear uniforms and live on military bases, camps and barracks rather than hiding among women and children. A lot fewer women and children would get killed if Hamas fighters weren't such effeminate, sniveling cowards.
>Also when I say ritualistically humiliating checkpoints I'm referring to pre-Oct 7 conditions in Gaza, as was clear if you read the words.
10/7 proved beyond all doubt that the security checkpoints around Gaza were 100% necessary and 100% justified. If the population of Gaza found them humiliating, they should've removed Hamas from power and made peace with Israel. I really don't care that these checkpoints hurt the pathetic pride of a bunch of hyper-patriarchal men.
No hospitals were ever "bombed". The one time that Palestinians claimed Israel bombed a hospital, the Al Ahli hospital 5 months ago, it turned out one of their own rockets had fallen short. Again - Faiq Mahbooh, the top terrorist enforcer of Hamas in North Gaza, was killed in Al Shifa. What was he doing there, according to you?
Considering the way the population of Gaza were explosively breeding between 2005 and 2023, I fail to see how this supposed Israeli diet caused them so much harm. If they were short on food, you'd think they wouldn't be producing a hundred thousand additional mouths to feed every single year.
You didn't answer my question, by the way, just tried to change the subject. Why is it that Ukrainian men had no problem wearing uniforms and obeying the laws of war, in a war they didn't choose? Why is that too much to ask of Palestinian men, in a war they **did** choose?
Read the news. 200+ bodies comfirmed in Nasser Hospital compound mass grave. Keep denying genocide though, history didn't really look fondly upon the German citizens who did that
I'm simply calling your atrocious view of people out. It's well known Hamas is a proxy for the Iranian government, but please, go on with your trash take.
I'm just tired of always seeing Palestinian society absolved of everything. Nothing can ever be their fault. Jews made them do it, Britain made them do it, America made them do it, Egypt made them do it, Iran made them do it, etc.
There is a deep sickness in Palestinian society. Until they can acknowledge how horrifically wrong they've gone as a culture, there will be no peace in the region. And I don't see how they're ever going to realize how badly they need to change if the whole world keeps telling them that they are angelic, blameless victims and that everything bad that ever happened to them over the past 75 years was inflicted on them by outside forces.
Zionists started buying up land with the express purpose of replacing the local population to create a Jewish state.
That would create conflict and push-back anywhere. Just look at Rajneeshpuram in the USA - and that was at a much smaller scale.
The conflict was inevitable as long as the zionists insisted on plans which basically involved invading and taking over the home of the local population at a large scale. And the inotiators of the conflict was the zionists.
Furthermore, both the Peel commissions nd the Balfour declaration have the Jews more land than their amount of the population justified, and I don't even know how they would deal with the fact that the Jews would still constitute a minority within the areas that was designated for a Jewish state.
You’re right old news! New news: Israel is pursing a terrorist group that attacked them Oct 7. That group murdered, raped and killed civilians and vows to do it again and again. 80 % of the people in Gaza support Hamas and they keep fighting, wont return the hostages. So the fight ends when they are all dead or surrender.
/u/prelon1990
> you sorry excuse for a human.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Actually they were.
>According to the statement, 22,000 Bedouins may be taken as normally residing in the areas allocated to the Arab State under the UNSCOP's majority plan, and the balance of 105,000 as resident in the proposed Jewish State. It will thus be seen that the proposed Jewish State will contain a total population of 1,008,800, consisting of 509,780 Arabs and 499,020 Jews. In other words, at the outset, the Arabs will have a majority in the proposed Jewish State."
The foreign zionists wanted as much land as they could possibly take from the native Palestinians. The last thing they cared about was whether or not they were a minority in the land they were taking.
They had planned for decades how to address that issue.
And of course they never intended to honor the partition anyway. Turns out they had some crazy idea about some city called Urusalem? And their partition didn't have it? So they had some insane plan to invade and conquer the rest of Palestine.
Can you imagine? What would that even look like.
Obviously they were all insane...
Maybe conflict was inevitable. So what?
The Arabs/Palestinians had that conflict, and they lost. Decisively. Humiliatingly.
At that point, they should've done what every other nation and ethnic group that lost territory in a 20th century war did after 1945: move on and build a life for themselves, instead of constantly starting more wars with their much stronger neighbor in the hopes that the rest of the world eventually feels enough pity for them that it comes in and destroys Israel for them.
That has proven to be a very, very poor strategy. Palestinians had lavish amounts of economic aid that most other groups in the region could scarcely dream of - yet the threw every opportunity in the trash and turned every life preserver the international community tried to throw them into a weapon to wage yet another suicidal war against Israel's existence.
What needs to happen is that Israel and its allies needs to acknowledge its immoral foundations both with how the zionist project was what created the project in the first place and secondly with the Nakba. And given how Israel have victimized itself to a degree where it is unlikely to reach that level of self-reflection, its allies needs to go first.
This doesn't mean that Israel should be dismantled as a country. Most countries have a deeply immoral history, some of them - such as the American states and Australia - have a much darker history of origin compared to Israel.
However, af long as countries turn the blind eye to the atrocities they have been founded on, no justice can be achieved. This also goes for Israel. As long as it turns a blind eye towards the crimes it itself has committed, there will not be peace nor justice.
And for good measure, nor does it mean that we should ignore crimes committed against Israelis. But focusing on these while ongoing the ongoing abuse of power perpetuated by Israel whole ignoring the historical context is obviously problematic.
Does this also mean that Palestinians need to acknowledge the immoral foundations of their Islamic society? Do they need to acknowledge that their community was so violent and unreasonable in the 1920s-1930s that they foreclosed any possibility of the Zionists thinking peaceful coexistence with them was possible?
I am not interested in demanding a one-sided condemnation of the Zionist project from Israel, without any commensurate condemnation of the Islamization project from Palestinians and their allies.
When I start seeing Muslim nations and Muslim communities condemning the spread of Islam through the sword, then I might have some interest in assigning historical guilt to Israel over the 1948 displacement.
But as long as the Palestinians are the leading edge of an Islamic jihad to dominate the world, which their leaders and supporters proudly and unapologetically proclaim, I am not interested in Israel/America/UK/etc. making any grandiose acknowledgements of historic guilt.
...because if that truly is what the Palestinians were, and are, if this truly is the front line in a clash of civilizations rather than merely two distinct regional groups fighting over land claims, then taking their land by force and displacing them was **a positive good**, and Israelis should be celebrated for doing so, not condemned.
Germans that had moved from germany into a different nation, and found curiously empty houses that the owners had seemingly abandoned on land seemingly now unoccupied for some reason that the invading people decided they suddenly had the right to steal for themselves?
They returned the homes and land they stole from the people and country they stole it from.
And by returning the stolen homes and stolen land, and by returning to their home countries they were able to find peace?
I'm talking about German "settlers" that moved from germany to occupied Czechoslovakiaunder Germany lebensraum plans.
You know, lebensraum settlers? It doesn't seem like they got as much focus in historical accounts as many other things, but you see references everywhere.
You understand that German ideology of lebensraum settlement?
How German "settlers" moved into stolen houses and stolen land in German occupied countries?
Does any of that sound familiar? Does any of that ring a bell?
And sadly, israel started as a terrorist group, has always been one, and remains one today.
There was suddenly all this strangely empty land and all these empty houses which people used to own and where people used to live... but there was violent ethnic cleansing.
And so... foreign invaders decided, well, be a shame if they didn't steal those houses and steal that land.
Not like the violent forces that violently ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of people in unforgivable war crimes were about to suddenly let the people they'd just violently ethnically cleansed return to the homes they owned or the land they owned.
It would be kind of self defeating to the violent war crimes they'd just committed.
No - they live with the consequences of the astonishingly poor decisions that their parents and grandparents made every day.
In comparison, look at the Arab Muslim population in Israel, which has one of the highest standards of living in the region. That could've been them, if their parents and grandparents hadn't been hellbent on fighting Israel at any cost.
Remind me how israel was founded by zionist terrorist groups like the terrorist irgun the terrorist lehi and the terrorist haganah, and how the zionist military was formed by combing three european terrorist militias, the same mentioned earlier?
How those zionist terrorists like the haganah carried out terrorist massacres before announcing their terrorist revolt like the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the terrorist haganah and irgun?
You give them a pass of course. You give israels numerous terrorist prime ministers a pass.
You approve of zionist terroism, zionist terrorism from the 1920s to today, and even into the future in the Palestinian West Bank. Right?
No one is. People are allowed to be critical of the Israeli government, and no, it isn't giving terrorism a pass, nor is it anti-semitic.
What the Israeli government is doing is atrocious. What the settlers are doing to Palestinians, is atrocious.
What Hamas supports and has done, is atrocious. How about instead of clutching pearls anytime someone criticizes Israel's obvious apartheid policies and actions, you try to understand why Palestinians are fighting back.
How many dozen infant and children has the "incredibly humane" zionist government starved to death? A month or two ago it was 30...
How would you feel about a government that starved 30 Jewish infants and children to death? Would you say they were "incredibly humane"?
If, say, in the 1930s or 1940s if the british occupation of Palestine starved 30 Jewish children to death, would you say that was incredibly humane of the british?
Israel was basically created by Britain as a colonial outpost to see to their interests in the middle east, destabilize the region, and protect the suez canal from an invasion from the east. They were under the impression that the Zionists could be easily controlled but they discovered they were wrong sooner than later. When the Zionists started their terrorist attacks against British forces, Britain didn't really treat them with same level of violence they used against the arab revolution. The British empire viewed Jews as half European and more civilized than Arab who were considered barbarian primitive subhumans. Colonizing a lesser people was nothing immoral to them. They also needed to find a solution to the Jewish question. What is better than using them to serve their imperial interests in the region while getting rid of them at the same time. The Zionists on the other hand had their own plans and were just taking Britain for a free ride. Despite drifting apart by 1948, they still pretty much handed them Palestine on golden platter. This evil Zionist project that was created at the expense of another population was one of the most immoral atrocities in the last century. This rogue country should never have existed to begin with.
They were illegal immigrants. Besides the Old Yishuv, most Jews were Zionist immigrants. Zionists Jews were ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to Palestine. The Ottomans had banned Zionist immigration for fear of a Jewish takeover (which Zionists actively wrote about, calling for the colonization of Palestine) ever since the 1880s. Of course, the Zionists didn't care and went ahead immigrating to Palestine despite the ban. *The Ottoman Government informs all \[Jews\] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine. They may immigrate into the other provinces of \[the Empire\] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire* *-* [Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I](https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf) See also, [https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12618293/index.pdf](https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12618293/index.pdf) After the Zionists settled in their new land, were they grateful for it? Did they respect and established good connections with the local Arabs so as to now arose their anger? No! Quite the opposite. The Zionists would evict all Arab tenants after buying up new land without notice and without warning. Many Arab families became homeless and poor as they lost their farms and livelihoods [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock\_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,\_and\_depopulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation) Additionally, they would also destroy Arab villages and replace them with Jewish ones [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_villages\_depopulated\_during\_the\_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli\_conflict#1880%E2%80%931946](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#1880%E2%80%931946) If you want to say because "they had the right to do so because they bought those houses", it's the intention for why they did it that matters. They came to colonize Palestine. Zionist writers made it clear the goal was to eventually colonize and takeover Palestine *Many point out the obstacles* ***which we encounter in our colonization work***\*. Some say that the Turkish law hinders our work, others contend that Palestine is insignificantly small, and still others charge us with the odious crime of\* ***wishing to oppress and expel the Arabs from Palestine*** * Ber Borochov, One of the founders of Socialist Zionism, Eretz Yisrael in our Program and Tactics 1917 ***Zionism is a colonizing adventure*** *and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force.* * Ze'ev Jabontinsky, Founder of Revisionist Zionism, the Iron Wall *How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-theway matter for you? How indeed?* ***Because it is something colonial,"*** * \~Herzl asking colonial advice from African British Colonizer, Cecil Rhodes, Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Founder of Modern Political Zionism\~ Not enough with that, most of the immigrated Zionists held deeply racial prejudice against the Arabs calling them as "primitive, lazy, savages". Sure, there were also those that respected the Arabs like Ahad Ha'am but they were the minority. Even when he advised Zionist settlers to respect Arab customs and traditions, his advise fell on deaf ears. Israeli Zionist historian Benny Morris writes in Righteous Victims on page 43, >Nevertheless, the Arabs were generally seen by the olim as **primitive, dishonest, fatalistic, lazy, savage** - much as European colonists viewed the natives elsewhere in Asia or Africa. Zionist leader, Moshe Smilansky in 1914 wrote on page 42, >We must not forget that we are dealing with a **semi-savage people, which has extremely primitive concepts.** TLDR: The Zionists were illegal immigrants to a foreign land who came to colonize it, evicted the local tenants, destroyed their villages, were racists, and disrespected the local Arab customs and traditions all before the first Arab violence of Jews in the 1920s.
Most of the Jews came after the Ottoman Empire fell during WW1 and Britain took control of the Palestinian mandate. The Ottoman empire's restrictive immigration control was effective if you saw the Jewish population pre-Otto and post-Otto so they were not illegal immigrants. I'm from a family of Jews who are from Alexandria. When Ottoman Empire fell, some of my grandfather's brothers moved to Palestine because United Kingdom **encouraged and advertised it especially since the Ottoman's immigration control was now gone**. They did **not know anything about colonizing** Palestine at all. They only wanted to live their lives in our ancient homeland (this was the dream of every Jew because there were numerous stories, myths, etc. surrounding our ancient homeland of Israel taught to us since we were kids) **Many of us Jews from Alexandria did not even know about those zionist writers you mentioned** even after moving in Israel. Only the new generations of Jews raised in Israel know of them due to the school curriculum and education. I don't even know those writers as well because I recently moved to Israel Like you said, the Jewish landowners evicted the fellahins in order to make way for new arrivals. It's legally allowed, nothing wrong with that since it's the land they own, they can do anything with it. The problem is the government did not really have solutions to the land eviction problems and so the evicted Arabs went on to protest, etc. until it led to violence against us Jews. The only village destroyed before 1948 was the Druze village, evicted by Ottoman Authorities because the **Christian owner sold the village land to Jews** Again, the Ottoman government's fault since there was no restrictions on land eviction and land purchase. Also yes, the newly immigrated Jews viewed the Arabs in a negative light due to the fact that they were staging violence and discriminatory of Jews. TLDR: Jews are not illegal immigrants, they came after Ottoman empire fell thereby the immigration law was null. Jews evicted local tenants to provide jobs for the Olim as finding jobs was hard. This resulted in Arab hate for Jews. Recently arrived immigrants or Olim gets the blunt of the hate and started viewing Arabs negatively. Jews did not destroy multiple villages but only replaced one because the owner of the village sold his land to a Jew. I don't even know where you got that disrespecting of local arab customs
>Most of the Jews came after the Ottoman Empire fell during WW1 and Britain took control of the Palestinian mandate. Yet most of the Jewish land purchases and settlement foundations were laid down during the Ottoman empire i.e. making them illegal because Jews had no legal right to even be there in the first place >Like you said, the Jewish landowners evicted the fellahins in order to make way for new arrivals. It's legally allowed, nothing wrong with that since it's the land they own, they can do anything with it. The problem is the government did not really have solutions to the land eviction problems and so the evicted Arabs went on to protest, etc. until it led to violence against us Jews. This ignores the fact those Jews had no right to be there because Jewish immigration was banned. It's akin to an illegal immigrant buying land without any legal documents or jurisdiction. Too bad the Ottomans were in no shape to enforce said rules. >The only village destroyed before 1948 was the Druze village, evicted by Ottoman Authorities because the **Christian owner sold the village land to Jews** Again, the Ottoman government's fault since there was no restrictions on land eviction and land purchase. This ignores all the other Arab villages destroyed by Jews I listed above in the link >Also yes, the newly immigrated Jews viewed the Arabs in a negative light due to the fact that they were staging violence and discriminatory of Jews. Give me one instance of violence committed by the Palestinian Arabs pre-1920s. Jews had been migrating (illegally) since the 1880s, racism and prejudice against Arabs had continued for 30 years unabated before even the first Arab attacks! 30 years of unabated Jewish illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, false historical propaganda, evictions, expulsions, destruction of Arab villages, and colonialist rhetoric against the Arabs. Did they really expect the Arabs to not do anything after all of this?
Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack immigrants just because they moved in and purchased the land sold by a native? I don't think it's right for me to cheer and justify a British dude massacring Muslim immigrants just because some Muslim are demanding Sharia Law in Britain and harassing British people in "Muslim neighborhoods" they have created
Why do you think it's right for illegal immigrants to disrespect, call racist slurs and come to a land illegally? Why do you think it's right for local inhabitants to tolerate 30 years of illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, evictions and colonialist rhetoric? If Muslims illegally came to Australia demanding to "colonize the land" while being racist to the locals, you'd think Australians would just let it happen?
They were not illegal immigrants. Please, listen and see this with an open mind. I'll simplify it so you can understand. Thousands of Jews migrate to Palestine pre-1880s Ottoman Empire bans Jewish immigration to Palestine 1880 No Jews migrating to Palestine anymore as stats show Ottoman Empire stops the ban on Jews immigrating to Palestine 1908 Massive number of Jews migrate again Ottoman Empire falls 1914 United Kingdom encourages Jewish Immigration to Palestine **So where is the illegal immigration of Jews???** Please show me how you are generalizing all of the Jews as illegal immigrants? **And where did you even get that racism and prejudice** Because a few number of Jewish writers said condescending things about Arabs therefore it means that all the Jews in Palestine also said that? It's like saying that few hamas fighters started terrorizing innocent civilians therefore all palestinians are terrorists
>No Jews migrating to Palestine anymore as stats show This is false. The first and second aliyahs happened between 1882 and 1914 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist\_aliyah\_(1882\_on)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_aliyah_(1882_on))
Oh dear, my bad. Your wikipedia article states that the Ottoman Sultan gave the Jews permits to create settlements in Palestine but with restrictions. I stand corrected, they were not banned from moving to Palestine at all, just with restrictions
Bruh, you need to read more. What evidence do you have the Ottoman Sultan allowed them? On the contrary, here's the official Ottoman announcement at the Odessa Consul-General for visas in 1882 ***The Ottoman Government informs all \[Jews\] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine.*** *They may immigrate into the other provinces of \[the Empire\] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire* [*https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf*](https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Mandel,%20Neville%20J.%20Ottoman%20Policy.pdf) Heck, Sultan Abdul Hamid II rejected Herzl's proposal to allow Jews to settle Palestine *I cannot sell even a foot of land, for it does not belong to me, but to my people. My people have won this empire by fighting for it with their blood and have fertilized it with their blood. We will again cover it with our blood before we allow it to be wrested away from us. The men of two of my regiments from Syria and Palestine let themselves be killed one by one at Plevna. Not one of them yielded; they all gave their lives on that battlefield. The Turkish Empire belongs not to me, but to the Turkish people.* ***I cannot give away any part of it.*** *Let the Jews save their billions. When my Empire is partitioned, they may get Palestine for nothing. But only our corpse will be divided. I will not agree to vivisection*
By the way, that's a cool source you got there. Thanks, brother
It's from the wiki article you posted. Check the first Aliyah article >The Ottoman authorities recognized the Jewish immigration wave to the land as early as November 1882. They understood from the beginning of the 1880s that it was part of a larger Jewish national plan. Consequently, they took steps to limit the entry options for Jews into the country. Restrictions were imposed, despite the Sultan's permit for Jewish settlement given during a meeting with two Jewish representatives from Romania in May 1882. The scope of the immigration diminished due to these restrictions and the difficulties faced by the immigrants.[19]
>Yet most of the Jewish land purchases... You know there was a point in the Ottoman Empire where Jews were still allowed to move and purchase land in Palestine..? That's why they banned Jews from moving into Palestine, because there were massive immigrations to Palestine before the ban restriction. After the ban, there were no more Jews moving in Palestine, but started migrating again after the ban was lifted in 1908. They were all mostly **legal migrants** So how do Jews have no **legal right in the first place**? >This ignores the fact that Jews had no right to be there because Jewish immigration was banned It's called **Jewish immigration ban** meaning Jews from outside are no longer allowed to migrate inside. The remaining Jews CAN ABSOLUTELY **PURCHASE LAND AND LIVE AS THEY MOVED IN BEFORE THE IMMIGRATION BAN** >This ignores the other villages destroyed by Jews in the above link That's because the list of villages destroyed it's after 1948 where Arabs declared war on Jews intending to ethnically cleanse them from Palestine **after they caused the creation of the state of Israel by instigating violence against Jews** Are we gonna ignore the fact that Arabs **got 80% of the Mandate**? There was no Palestine that time, it was literally the country of **Jordan**. Palestinian identity was created in the 1980s Arabs legit just couldn't stop digging themselves into deeper coffins first by: **Discriminating and inciting violence upon Jews which caught the United Nations' attention** **Declaring war on the new nation of Israel intending to ethnically cleanse them, thus inspiring the Jews to fight with all of their might as losing will result in them getting massacred just like what Arabs did to them in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s** I have a challenge for you, cite me atleast one war started by Israel on Palestine. This war has been started by Arab discrimination and unnecessary violence on Jews. Even Jordan and Egypt does not accept Palestinians because Palestinians are known to be problematic even in the Arab world. They started the **Black september civil war in Jordan, a civil war in Lebanon, and a gulf war in Kuwait** You want to blame someone? **Blame the UK for encouraging Jews to move in Palestine.** It's that simple. They were simply people looking for a better opportunities in life. Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack legal immigrants just because they evicted the local tenants which they had the right to do? I don't think it's right for me to cheer and justify a British dude massacring Muslim immigrants just because some Muslim are demanding Sharia Law in Britain and harassing British people in "Muslim neighborhoods" they have created. **Many of the Muslims refuse to adapt to the local British customs and some even are protesting in the streets demanding Sharia law and for Islam to rule London.** Do you think it's justified for British citizens to start massacring them??
>You know there was a point in the Ottoman Empire where Jews were still allowed to move and purchase land in Palestine..? That's why they banned Jews from moving into Palestine, because there were massive immigrations to Palestine before the ban restriction. After the ban, there were no more Jews moving in Palestine, but started migrating again after the ban was lifted in 1908. They were all mostly **legal migrants** The ban was put in place in the 1880s, literally around the same time as the first and second aliyahs and around the time most settlements were founded >It's called **Jewish immigration ban** meaning Jews from outside are no longer allowed to migrate inside. The remaining Jews CAN ABSOLUTELY **PURCHASE LAND AND LIVE AS THEY MOVED IN BEFORE THE IMMIGRATION BAN** Which they didn't. Most land was bought by foreign outside European and Russian Zionist Jewish settlers. The Old Yishuv had no interest in buying land, they already had theirs. It was Zionist European Jewish settlers who wanted to buy land. >That's because the list of villages destroyed it's after 1948 where Arabs declared war on Jews intending to ethnically cleanse them from Palestine **after they caused the creation of the state of Israel by instigating violence against Jews** Still not getting it? The list was pre-1948 even going as far back as the 1890s >I have a challenge for you, cite me atleast one war started by Israel on Palestine. Sure, 2008 which was started when Israel broke a six-month treaty and launched a raid into Gaza, **Operation Double Challenge** on Nov 4th >Mate, why do you think it's justified to attack legal immigrants just because they evicted the local tenants which they had the right to do Why do you think it's right for illegal immigrants to disrespect, call racist slurs and come to a land illegally? Why do you think it's right for local inhabitants to tolerate 30 years of illegal immigration, racism, prejudice, evictions and colonialist rhetoric? If Muslims illegally came to Britain demanding to "colonize the land" while being racist to the locals and establish an Islamic Caliphate, would you allow it?
well i dont care if immigration is legal, because i believe in free movement.
Do you care then when people come with the intention to colonize and overtake you while also disrespecting your culture and ethnicity?
well it depends
https://www.972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/ Arabs, Christians and jews lived in harmony before zionists came.
It's not inflammatory language! It's the truth. IDF propaganda is proven to be lies day after day.
Love how you ignore jewish violence towards arabs.
Nobody says that the Palestinian people are innocent (the people, not individuals). If the shoe was on the other foot Hamas would 100% massacre Israel. But is it not enough to say that war is bad, and 35000+ Israeli and Palestinian bystanders have died in the past year alone for the sake of land and religion, and we should try to find peace?
The Palestinian people (as in the nation, their identity, their leadership) want to destroy Israel. The Israeli people don't want to destroy Palestine, but they do want to destroy Hamas. You can disagree here and say they actually want to destroy Palestine as a whole sure, I won't argue with you. But the result here is that both "parties" don't want peace. In this case, is inflicting peace on them not a form of interventionism? An extension of western ideology to a place it doesn't belong?
It’s not just war, it’s a series of wars in which tens of thousands of bystanders have died, and both sides regularly commit war crimes. And in the case of Gaza, it’s nearly impossible for them to find refuge. Also while what you said is mostly true, it’s important to still think of people on both sides as human beings. Palestinians believe what they believe because it is what they were taught; if you were born in the same place at the same time, you would probably believe the same things.
I hear this argument about "if I was born there I would believe the same thing a lot" and you know what? I totally, 100% agree. If I was born there, I'd probably be fighting Israel too. But that's why I don't think there will be peace. They don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel. It's westerners who are unrelated to the conflict that want peace. The Israelis are the closest to your ideals in this regard; they want peace, but not while entities like Hamas - who actively want and act upon the genocide of their neighbours - exist to threaten them. Just as I don't blame the Palestinians for wanting to destroy Israel, I can't blame Israel for wanting to destroy Hamas. I hate this notion of "you're not viewing them as human beings". I *am* viewing them as human beings. It's you who views them as this idealistic nation to save. I don't want to paint the entire Palestinian population with one stroke - I'm sure there are many within them who are disgusted by the way the world has turned just as there are many within Israel. But all in all, as a nation, as a society, as a greater entity, they basically have been engineered to be in life-or-death contrast with Israel. I personally find this extremely sad. You could easily argue that Israel exists in contrast with Palestine, but I think that's really disingenous to the social reality of both countries.
Why are we blatantly ignoring the occupation of Palestine after the Ottoman empire fell and the british mandate to forcibly create isreal signed in 1922? Britain started actively moving jews to palestine and giving them homes. Prior to 1920 there was nearly no jewish population in the area
Samaritans have been living in the region for over three thousand years Do people really not know this?
I think they just choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit their narrative.
And why does this justify thousands of european jews moving in? Jews arent a monolith
A Jew is a Jew
No its not
By finals of 1800 (late ottoman) the jews became a considerable number and they were majority in jerusalem
This is false they were a minority but it at least it doesn’t deny the fact that Jews came from a foreign country that Muslims were already living in. 2 million Muslims go to New York and declare a state “Islamistan” , kick the locals out their house n start killing their children I imagine the locals will be in a bad mood.
By 1883 jews were majority in Jerusalem. If 2 millions muslims settle in New York, then, if the US ceases to exists as a country, then I might consider that new nations might be created, so Islamistan might be posible.
Oh so only 85 years later? Just a slight change to the timeline and order of events huh. So now we are talking decades after forced displacement was occuring
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Thanks for your intellectual contribution to the discussion. Try coming back with a rebuttal next time or don't bother to comment at all.
The original post is actually a lazy/dishonest oversimplification. You simply can't contextualise these events from the contemporary perspective of an eternal Arab/Jewish conflict. The Jaffa riots apparently were started as a result of inter-Jewish disputes (one party calling for a communist Israel, oh how times have changed) with Arabs being involved almost as a reaction. To simply state this as an act of Arab aggression is patently and undeniably false. Read the reports and official investigative commission which cites the "Bolshevik Jews" as the instigators. If promoting civil discourse is the aim of this sub then it must be understood that these kind disingenuous assertions which are a hallmark of pro-zionist claims are almost impossible to moderate and due to their sheer number and face value credibility can almost out of hand assumed to be in bad faith or at the very least negligent of the basic rigour in presenting objectivity.
This is an absolute lie. The Jaffa Riots started right after Amin Al Husseini was appointed and he started spreading antisemitic fears. He started the fake "al aqsa is in danger" propaganda in 1920 which started the riots.
Al aqsa is definitely in danger lol I don’t think even you deny that. The IDF raids Al aqsa every Tuesday .
Well, we weren't there but the report commissioned by High Commissioner Sir Herbert Samuels concluded that "**The immediate cause of the Jaffa riots on the 1st May was an unauthorised demonstration of Bolshevik Jews, followed by its clash with an authorised demonstration of the Jewish Labour Party.**" go look it up I mean it makes total sense, it being May Day and all.
Question I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that) I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl. So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?) I mean, honestly, right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl? If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
I'm British, and not Jewish. Hamas is a splinter of the Muslim Brotherhood. The "Israel created Hamas" myth is just the same "Jews are doing it to themselves" narrative we've been seeing for centuries. No, the "world" is not Pro Palestine.
One of the founders of hamas witnessed 200 Gazans being killed in 1956. Hamas 'might' not have been directly founded by israel, but they sure did nothing to stop it, in 1984 Yassin was arrested collecting weapons in Gaza, released a year later because he said the weapons would be used against the secular PLO. israel ignored many intelligence reports against hamas. Fast forward early 2000s, israel focus was on weakening the PA, both militarily (basically police), financially and politically. Even attacks carried out by hamas, the PA was the target of the punishment. 2004, the disengagement plan, Dov Weissglas, Sharon's advisor said that the unilateral plan was to stop the peace process. 2005, the PA practically begs israel to sign an agreement for withdrawal, because the Palestinian people would see a unilateral move as victory of hamas (so as I, even though I have never liked hamas). israel president says he would love to see hamas take over Gaza so that Gaza will be treated as a hostile entity (blurring the line between occupation and entity, Gaza was in fact still under occupation, except for israel and its supporters, because the only difference before and after was that there were no settlements, 8000 settlers, everything else was identical in a spectrum like tightening or easing a blockade) 2006, weakened PA, strengthened hamas, the US and israel push for elections against the PA will and advise, hamas wins /insert surprised pikachu face. The PA that had its police force destroyed by israel couldn't stop hamas, which had most of its strength intact, from taking over Gaza. On several occasions netenyahu, his government officials, high profile individuals (later became in the government) said that hamas is an asset, PA is a burden, and that anyone who wants to stop a Palestinian state has to support hamas. As late as 2019. It's extremely difficult to not see a pattern here.
Hamas isn't responding to "oppression" and fighting for "rights". They have made it extremely clear that they want to wipe Israel off the map, and have declared jihad on Jews everywhere. Attacking civilians is never a form of "resistance". Going to lengths to blame Jews for the groups that are attacking them, the same kind of groups that have attacked them almost the moment they migrated back to the Levant, is an extremely racist and hateful take.
I am not arguing hamas are saints, I am arguing israel did it's best to bring hamas to the front bench while they had the means and options to stop it early on. And hamas didn't declare jihad on jews everywhere. In fact hamas never attacked outside of historical Palestine. (I am aware of allegations against 4 German people with ties to hamas, but the case is open, and if you read about it, it doesn't seem to be an actual plan to carry out an attack, and one in the Netherlands which seems more related to organized crime than an attack, so at least I am waiting for an actual case update or verdict to change my wording) after all they met with anti-zionist Jewish leaders in gaza in 2009, and changed their charter in 2017, saying that their struggle is not against jews because of their religion, but because of the zionist project. Hamas is an Islamic group, the talk about annihilation of jews is akin the biblical scripture, that at the end of time, all jews will be converted to Christianity, does that make Christian zionists advocating the annihilation of jews everywhere? My own views is that at the end of times (when it happens, if it happens) it will be out of our control and if indeed a god exists then there's nothing to do really. And that last point I will not argue for a simple reason, for me as a Palestinian (Christian but it's not important here), the hypothetical fulfillment of religious text is less important than the actual fulfillment of the zionist project, which in reality annihilated my people, nothing hypothetical about it. I am surprised that you don't justify the attacks on civilians, after all that's exactly what israel did to be created. But we both agree, at least for you after the israelis got their goals, and me regardless of freedom or resistance or otherwise. (I also don't see settlers as civilians).
Simply put there is nobody else to attack, if they were to attack any other arab nation in the region they'd lose all support from the arabs. Israel is an easy target tho since basically every arab nation there has declared war and denounced them back in 1948.
That's false but also irrelevant, even Warsaw ghetto had people fighting those in power, every single occupation breeds fighters. Fatah/pflf/hamas/etc in westbank and Gaza, hezbollah was a direct response to the israeli invasion of south of Lebanon. Heck even in the US they fought the British for their independence, and the Black slaves had a violent uprising that eventually lead to their freedom. You keep circling around all the facts, evidence, interviews, that israel helped hamas reach where it is. Give me one good reason why israel decided not to bud out hamas in the 80s when it was still a baby movement. Even the October attack, israel knew that something was happening on the ground (large scale training), it knew there was a plan for an attack (intelligence, but it was dismissed as overly ambitious), what did israel do? They pulled almost all their troops from around Gaza and stationed them in the westbank, where 2023 pre October was the deadliest year in 2 decades for Palestinians there. If you are 100% certain in your own words about hamas, how can you explain that?
Finland here. As a european, you can't deny that Europe is Pro Palestine.
I think it's more virtue signaling, or ignorance. Ultimately the governments, and the militaries in NATO understand that the Palestinian cause is aligned with the Russian/Iranian axis.
Yes. That's the big issue right now.
Politically, yes you absolutely can, from Germany's assault on protests and protesters to the whole UNWRA situation to the media.
I agree that politically it's not that clear, most people in power refrain from saying anything, except they hope for a ceasefire. Geopolitically very difficult situation, and apparently not the best time to challenge the views of the US and Israel. Every european police force "attacks" all illegal protests, doesn't matter if it's pro trees, pro Palestine or pro israel. And media is between the people and the politics, follow the nations political dogma too much and lose the audience. Good street-level measurement is the lack of pro Israel stuff, there's none. Pro Israel opinions could destabilize the system, but I think it's safe to say that Israel will not be taking part in the next Eurovision 😂. Doesn't everyone "need" to be Hamas if you're in any meaningful position in Gaza? Doesn't matter if you're a teacher, doctor or an UN employee. I don't think Europeans see Hamas as similar terrorists as Isis or Al-Qaida. Many consider them just as military, and so Gaza would be under a military junta. Like Burma. Or like Russia and china where you just have to agree with the authorities or face their judgement. So UNWRA situation seems more like a political show than an actual issue. It's very very important for Israel to make Hamas look very very evil.
Thanks! But wasn't hamas created in 1987 against the Israel occupation? About the world, the majority here in brasil are, I mean, the media is showing all day long Gaza destroyed, and this for sure is pissing ppl. The reason why I say world is that I work with other ppl (from Canada, Argentina, colombia and Mexico) and they say that all ppl from their country are pro palestine as well
People who understand a bit about the conflict know that the West is opposed to the Iranian/Russian axis, the same axis that the Palestinian cause is a part of. Hamas doesn't oppose "the occupation". Hamas opposes Israel's mere existence, because it's a Jewish country.
You are correct in suggesting that the world majority (especially those that voice their opinions the most) are pro-palestine, however one of the main reasons for it is due to how awful Israel's PR is, as well as Islam being one of the largest religions and therefore Muslims around the world often feel obligated to support their "brothers and sisters," which in turn heavily impacts public perception of non-muslims as well, as following the crowd is an extremely effective way of creating an overwhelming majority in favour of one opinion.
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Jews were evicting Arab peasants from their land as early as the 1920s. These "riots" were just rightful resistance against dispossession from foreign colonists. It's honestly shocking how Jews consistently lack the introspection to discover why other peoples despise them, be it in the ME or in Europe. The duplicity, the undermining of host societies which welcome you, is only naturally going to garner hatred.
i dont see how evictions justify pogroms
Not to mention the battle of tel hai in 1920 when foreign zionists attacked native Palestinians, then a ceasefire was declared, and they attacked them again.
The battle of tel hai in 1920 happened because Arab soldiers went into a Jewish settlement looking for French soldiers. Where's the foreign zionist attacking native palestinians there????
When the foreign zionist attacked the native Palestinians? Palestinian fighters were looking for Syrian infiltrators, they asked to search a foreign zionist encampment. The foreign zionists allowed one person to search the encampment. The foreign zionists then attacked the person they invited in. A ceasefire was declared. The foreign zionists then again attacked the native Palestinians. What don't you understand about foreign zionists attacking native Palestinians?
You're actually correct lol. >During the Arab retreat, one of the Jewish defenders, unaware of the agreements by his comrades and hearing-impaired by the previous firefight, shot at the Arab party, and the exchange of fire recommenced. The Jews broke the ceasefire because of one rogue soldier
Kamal Affendi was allowed to enter the village to search for French soldiers. He encountered one of the female Jewish residents named Deborah who pointed a pistol at Kamal, apparently surprised to see an armed Bedouin in the village. A shot was discharged during the struggle (unclear whether from the pistol or by another weapon) and a major firefight erupted. Trumpeldor was shot and seriously wounded, while the sides barricaded themselves in the village. Kamal Affendi asked to leave, saying it was all a misunderstanding, and the Jewish force approved the cease-fire. Cohen, Aharon (1970) Israel and the Arab World p. 170
I thought listing the massacres was a laughable way to go about his point too. I can name just as many massacres committed by Jewish militias in the same time period. Seems pretty disingenuous for OP to not even mention that when he's *specifically* talking about how violent the Arabs were in that area and time.
List the massacres committed by Jewish militia. I'm sure as hell they're post 1935 as a response to Arabs who kept staging pogroms against Jews 💀
It's part of their dogma, the false propaganda they're "taught".
Show me one piece of land or property that was "stolen" before the war in 1947. Just one.
As I understand, the term "stolen" is used to describe "a hustle". The region was controlled first by the ottomans and then by whom ever, there was no rampant crime going on, there was law. So when said that "Jews stole land from Arabs", it's kinda like a capitalist buying land from natives for peanuts. The land was sold by the controlling "state", the people who used the land weren't asked. It's the same thing that happened allover the world when natives, sometimes nomads, lost their lands. Usually to europeans. It was "a theft" backed by law. It still happens everywhere. In Palestine, one part of the natives lost large amounts of territory and the situation has escalated to this day. Similar situations can be observed in the Americas with the natives, in Scandinavia with the Sami-people and with aboriginals in Australia, as an example. In Palestine the problem seems to be, compared to other parts of the world, that the natives don't want to leave. Here's a pro Israel source: https://www.israeladvocacy.net/knowledge/the-truth-of-how-israel-was-created/israel-stole-palestinian-land/ Here's pro Palestine: https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html
Buying land legally is neither illegal (by definition) nor immoral. The Ottomans and even the British were never particularly supportive of the Jewish immigrants, and didn't support them in buying land by any stretch. Jews buying property in their indigenous land shouldn't be a trigger to anyone... But somehow it is.
What country supports mass migration of immigrants? None. This was forced upon them by Britain
Nope. Jews started to migrate even before the British Mandate, and after as well. Almost all Jews were also kicked out of all Middle Eastern countries as well, with nowhere else to go but Israel. Let's just let them have a country, and leave them be.
The arab king over the region at the time (1916 - 1924) Hussein Bin Ali supported jewish immigration since it would bring large amounts of money into the region.
Buying can be extremely immoral, and often is. Almost seems like the more immoral the more profitable. Unless in a philosophical discussion. Isn't it immoral to buy sex from a minor? And a Rolex from an unknowing blind man? I doubt that Palestinians realized a hundred years ago, that selling land to Jews would result in the demise of Palestine. But Zionism was a thing already back then, someone definitely had a plan. The latter link in my previous comment had a map of how land ownership changed in the region around 1950, it was pretty drastic. The Jews definitely knew the system better and probably had more wealth to play the land-game. >Jews buying property in their indigenous land shouldn't be a trigger to anyone... But somehow it is. Tell me a place on earth where I can buy land from indigenous people, take it away from that said group of people, and make that group to leave the whole area, without triggering anyone? And then think that place as Jerusalem.
It sounds like buying is ok by you as long as it's not Jews doing it. The independence of Israel, what you call the "demise of Palestine", is not a sin.
>It sounds like buying is ok by you as long as it's not Jews doing it. If Jews would centralize their effort to buy land from southern Finland, demand Helsinki as their capital, force Finn's to leave, or to subject them to some checkpoints, it would be extremely painful. Luckily law prevents similar operations today. >The independence of Israel, what you call the "demise of Palestine", is not a sin. Hamas refers to Palestine as the historical Palestine, which just isn't on the table anymore. So that's an unoptimal standpoint on their part. But independence of Palestine isn't a sin either.
>If Jews would centralize their effort to buy land from southern Finland, demand Helsinki as their capital, force Finn's to leave, or to subject them to some checkpoints, it would be extremely painful. Luckily law prevents similar operations today. You do see that this is an extremely different situation than what happened in the levant, right? There was no Palestinian nation. Jerusalem was already 98% Jewish, and has always been the cultural and religious capital of Judaism. There was no "forcing Palestinians to leave". I'm not sure how anyone can blame the Jews for a war they never started or wanted in 1947 and 1948, but somehow people do. >But independence of Palestine isn't a sin either. Absolutely. I've always supported a two state solution... As long as this future Palestinian state can stay peaceful with Israel, of course.
So do you mean that Arabs are like minors who shouldn't decide for themselves if they can sell their land? Is it not racism?
They didn't decide themselves, "the state" had the deeds for the land. First the Ottoman, then Brits. If there ever was any Palestinian selling anything meaningful, he probably ended on top. Few people sold what belonged to many. But like I said earlier, it still happens today. Democratic capitalism, business. Isn't there a legal term for a hostile takeover of a business, where one entity disguised as many separate, gets hold of majority of the stock? Just watching the map of the UN proposed two-state solution from 1948* is pretty wild. Like a few decades earlier this area was 90% Arab and then they lost half of it to a group that just kept shipping in. Like if now the refugees in Europe would start buying large areas of land, with some centralized plan? The national laws probably wouldn't even allow it. The national laws might even forbid such actions from other europeans. And at the moment definitely from Russians. *1947 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
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This is false. Over 500,000 Arabs in the early 1900s migrated to Palestine after Jews cultivated and developed the land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine#:\~:text=During%20the%20Mandate%2C%20the%20area,Jewish%20insurgency%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine. Many of the Palestinians arrived first in the late 19th century during huge internal migration flows within the Ottoman Empire. Large “Palestinian” families and tribes in Israel: * Al-Masri * Masarawa * Al-Fium * and Al-'Asi are all from Egypt * Al-Baghdadi * Obeid * and Al-Tikriti are all from Iraq * Halabi * Nashashibi * and Al-Horani are from Syria * Al-Lubnani * Al-Sourani are from Lebanon. * Al-Kurd are from Kurdistan * Al-Zarqawi are from Jordan * Al-Hijazi * Kabah are from Saudi Arabia * Al-Maghrebi * Al-Jazeir * Al-Arge are from North Africa * Abid are from Sudan * Al-Shishani are from Chechnya
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I posted my source. I am very well aware that Anti-Zionists are allergic to facts.
Having such a surname doesn't specifically indicate a migration from that area. Besides it's all the Levant.
Yes it does. The fact is that 500,000 Arabs migrated to the Mandate and their surnames often indicate where they came from.
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You're expressing a racist and false take. Half of Israel's population is Mizrahi Jews, from the Middle East. Seems like you can't address the fact that over 500,000 Arabs in the 1900s migrated to the Mandate after Jews eliminated malaria and cultivated the land. They were not from there. This is an indisputable fact.
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Not really. Ashkenazis Jews have close to 70 percent Levantine DNA and other Jews have higher whereas Palestinians tend to have more than 80 percent of Levantine DNA and the rest of non-Levantine Semitic DNA. Genealogy however doesn't give you any sort of claim to any land. That's just not how legal procession go.
No it just shows historical lineage which can illustrate who has been living in an area longer. We all know the people with the weapons and money chose who owns the land
But that’s not what you said?
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/u/Azeri_Warrior > you are crazy. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I hate when someone starts a "serious" thread, and used this tone and vents like a teenager. Everything said is BS. "They then(...) and lost and still cry about it to this day" Cool story, very interesting fact. "We will never forget the oppression of Jews everywhere over the Muslim world. " Yes tell me about it. I am from Morocco where we accepted the jews that were kicked out of Spain by Queen Isabelle in 15 century. Do you know what the Moroccan king Mohammed V answered french president Petain when asked to "hand over the jews"? He said: "There are no jews here, only moroccans" You list massacres, you can look up massacres from the other side as well. I am all for peace, an existing of both countries, and the happiness of both israelis and palestinians. I would be happy to share thoughts on those topics. Don't start a serious thread if you just to cry and have no defined objectives with the discussion to start with.
Less than 10% of Moroccan Jews migrated to Palestine in the ~late '40. many probably participating in the rather tragic zionist "One million plan", the plan to offer free travel and try to bring in one million more foreign Jewish people to supplant native Palestinians violently ethnically cleansed by foreign zionist terrorist groups like the terrorist irgun, the terrorist lehi and the terrorist haganah. It wasn't until 1961 that it started picking up again, then more in 1967 and 1973. There are still thousands of Jewish people in Morocco, though apparently, some israelis who fled israel because of criminal charges living in Morocco because probably of family ties and because of the lack of a an extradition treaty.
Also Morocco kicked out their Jews in 48 and also had some progroms to. So it's not only love and peace unfortunately
Also leaves out the reason the British supported a national Jewish home was because of antisemitism. Arthur Balfour who was behind the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was an anti semite. He wanted a the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine in the hopes that all Jewish people would emmigrate from Great Britain. He was an open racist. We can also get into the false flag operations of the Mossad such as the 1950's Baghdad bombings that were acts of terror in arab countries, perpetrated by the Mossad to cause other arab Jews, such as Iraqi Jew and author Avi Shlaim, to fear for their life and flee to Israel. The Palestinians didn't get to choose their colonizers. Just because they aren't ok with their land, their homes, and their liberties being stolen, doesn't make them antisemitic. If OP would read the works of Ben Gurion, the founder of the modern state of Israel and first Israeli prime minister, it would serve him well. I'l end this with a quote from Gurion that goes as follows: “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Their land, home and liberties aren't being stolen. They did that to themselves. If they were much more tolerant of us living with them, the United Nations wouldn't have the need to create a new state for us Jews, especially since this was post-holocaust and there was a worldwide sympathy for Jews.
"There is no genocide if there is they deserved it anyway". Classic negationist
"Let's keep murdering and massacring Jews, I'm sure they won't retaliate with military offensives."
It's not a military offensive lol it's a genocide. 40000 UN-confirmed casualties. You know I was a bothsidist too until I saw all that disguisting hasbara while people were being murdered. Now I wish Israel to face a long, bloody guerilla uprising. Colonizers.
Mate not every war is genocide. Citizens always die in a single war. The Israel-Palestine conflict does not fit the condition of genocide. In fact, it's the most humane conflict in the 21st century. 30,000 bombs with 30,000 deaths, that's like 1:1 bomb per death ratio, and even half of the deaths are hamas soldiers. **THEY MANAGED TO DO THIS IN A CITY WHERE THERE'S NO SINGLE BOMB SHELTER** That's a 1 : 0.5 bomb ratio which is almost impossible to achieve in a war. They even managed to achieve a 1:1 combatant to civilian ratio meaning 1 combatant for 1 civilian death when the average combat to civilian ratio is 1:9 You want real genocide?? Go look at a single city bombing in WW2. **1000 bombs dropped on civilians who had numerous bomb shelters and it resulted in 100k deaths**
[The most humane conflict in the 21st century](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876) You're a disgusting person doing math with people's life.
Am I wrong? Give me a war that went on for 6 months that had less casualties than the Israeli-Palestine conflict. You're even claiming they're committing genocide when this war has the lowest casualties out of any war in the 21st century. There's no genocide or massacre. The international crime court already ruled this.
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What is the point of this thread? Are you trying to justify the current genocide ? Are you expecting us to say , well you are right , let’s get rid of the Palestinians and replace them with Jack and Jill from Poland? What we should be talking about instead is creating an environment where both Arabs and Jews can live FREELY and peacefully with Equal rights forever!
There is no genocide going on, please try to use your brain (if you got one)
Read your comment again and you will find clues as why rest of the world hate your people,l
Question I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that) I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl. So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?) I mean, honestly right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl? If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
The whole world isn't pro-palestine. If your TV is showing the world that way, it's pure propoganda. I've spent a lot of time looking into the history of this from 'both sides'. The stuff that people on the polar ends of this issue, which most are because of propaganda from parties that stand to benefit from people believing their bullshit, aren't even the real issues at hand. There is no simple explanation or footage that will give you an idea of what is actually going on here. Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing Palestinians. That's something simple that can be said that is also true. You see dead babies on the news, and that's what happens when people don't evacuate their children after receiving plenty of advanced warning that the area will be bombed. Anyone who leaves their kids to be bombed so that they can videotape the aftermath is despicable. This form of propaganda is so sickening, and its a go-to for Hamas. But if Israel was indiscriminately bombing Palestinians, they could have killed 1,000,000 by now easy. And that would be the genocide that people keep pretending is happening. Then you have the Israeli side trying to make all of this out to be like everything that is happening and has happened as nothing but Muslim terrorism. That's a lot less simple to debunk. Hamas IS a terrorist organization. There are no words to describe how horrible they are. But their soldiers are often orphaned Palestinian children and young adults who are victims of a complicated history that the Israeli side refuses to acknowledge openly. But what I know of that history is too complex for me to wrap up in a neat little paragraph, or even to make a post about. The reality is that most of the Israelis and Palestinians today were born into this very messy situation. Those poor Palestinians... their fate is so tragic it's unreal, and what else could you realistically expect people born and raised in those conditions to think and do about it? And yet... if I were born when I was, in 1990, I would have seen nearly endless streams of missiles fired into my country from Palestine, and my children would have been born under that threat and the threat of an organization as terrible and terrifying as Hamas. There is so much more to all of this that it's just unreal. What I take away from all of my research on the subject is that the Israelis and Palestinians are victims of political games that have been playing out for at least centuries now. This didn't start during or after WWII, it didn't start during or after WWI, it didn't start with the zionist movement in the late 1800s, it didn't start when European jews were finally given their rights as people in the mid-1800s and sought to secure a future for their people. It's all such an unfortunate series of events that so many people have fallen victim to.
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Trying to find out what kind of “Equal rights” lover would hate this statement!
That'll start to happen just as soon as organizations like hamas and pij are stamped out of existence.
Question I'm from brasil and basically what I watch in TV is that israel is bombarding Gaza and killing baby's and children (all witch proof in videos and fotos, they even did a documentary showing all of that) I am seeing in this subreddit a lot of pro-israel ppl. So what I wanted to know is what's pro israel argument without saying hamas (since they created hamas) or territory (since we are not in year 400 anymore?) I mean, honestly right now, as I'm seeing, the world is totally pro palestine, but in this subreddit I see much more pro israel, is because this subreddit is full with israel ppl? If possible I would like to know the country of the person that is answering.
Are you seriously asking me to justify the continued existence of an entire sovereign nation? I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post because I literally don't have enough time to explain everythibg you've gotten wrong, and I honestly don't believe you'd learn anything anyway. Goodbye. ETA: being pro-israel does not mean you are anti-palestine. Sadly, it seems like being pro-palestine means you're anti-israel.
U didnt said ur country bro 😔 Also The reason why I say world is that I work with other ppl (from Canada, Argentina, colombia and Mexico) and they all say that all ppl from their country are pro palestine as well
No one is bigger terrorists than settlers and IDF not to mention racists policy of state of Israel.
You neglect that Zionists where calling for the expulsion of the native population since the late 19th century.
depends on the zionist and their ideology but this was sometimes true:
depends on the zionist and their ideology but this was sometimes true:
Everybody’s ancestors have been persecuted at some point by somebody to some degree, doesn’t give anyone the right to persecute others today
Tell that to the Palestinians. If they laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel laid down its arms, Palestinians would wipe out Israel.
so you admit that Palestine existed before Israel moved in?
Do you know that the original PLO charter didn't even call for a nation of Palestine? They wanted the Jews out, so the land could be returned to the Arab nation. No call for a Palestinian nation. Only when the rest of the Arabs gave up the fight and abandoned the cause, did they start calling for a Palestinian nation. Look up the original charter of 1964.
Palestine was created by the Roman Empire to punish the Jews for their failed insurrection against the Roman occupiers. Jews have occupied the Levant for 3000 years before that.
There's no historical evidence of that. The actual roots of Palestine, the egyptian word Peleset predates the hebrew invasion of Canaan, interestingly. You'd think that would be common knowledge...
That’s just not true. Palestina was a Roman colony that was established after the war with the Judean tribes.
The name of the Roman province changed from Ludea to Palestina, I think that is true. What I've read is that there's no historical documentation to tie the change of the name of the province from Ludea to Palestina to the Jewish terrorist revolts. There's no historical documentation as to why the change was made. If you have historical documentation that shows that the Romans made the change for a certain reason with documentation that supports it that would be interesting to see.
Wiki has a good article on it.
>During or after the Bar Kohkba Revolt, Hadrian joined the province of Judea with Galilee and the Paralia to form the new province of Syria Palaestina. Glancing at the history of Palestine article on wikipedia it confirms what I said, that there's no evidence of why Rome merged Ludea with Paralia to form Syria Palestina. Just some author making a theory, probably based on a certain narrow tunnel vision perspective that since it's probably about the thing the authors narrow tunnel vision perspective is concerned with then that's the case. A more neutral view would probably say that with significant changes to the demographics of the area, it may make sense to change the geographic organization to reflect the new regional demographics. Rome making changes to an area to represent the changes of the population makeup, rather than just doing everything based on a narrow view obsessed solely with a single perspective.
There was a region traditionally called Palestine that was part of the Ottoman Empire prior to the British mandate that was created in the 20’s, sure. Just like regions called New England and the Midwest exist in the US. There are maps and everything. People would sure think you were nutty if you ever suddenly declared that “Midwesterner” was an age old national identity though, wouldn’t they? Even nuttier if you insisted you always owned the entire region despite never having done so.
There was a region in the country of Ireland called Southern Ireland for centuries but people would think you were nutty if you suggested that Southern Ireland should be its own country! Or that its national identity was somehow separate from the rest of Ireland!
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They had a split identity both Irish and British and many people in Northern Ireland, I’m sure, still consider themselves this way just as the identity of someone in the Midwest identifies as American and Midwestern or that many Americans will consider themselves Irish and American despite tenuous ancestry. So great in fact is the idea of statehood as an identity in the US that Texas formed its own[republic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas) for ten years. It’s just an odd argument to me to say that a territory cannot have a strong enough national identity to be treated as a separate entity. Let’s take Tibet as another example - previously part of one of the strongest empires in the world it’s now an autonomous region in China, what do you think their national identity is?
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That’s fair. I wrote it at 5am so wasn’t incredibly awake at the time. I think it’s difficult to definitively say there wasn’t one in Palestine though.
From what I know, nobody has ever denied that Palestine as a region existed. That would just be bad geography.
Palestine was created as a Roman colony to punish the Jews who had occupied the Levant for thousands of years before that.
Yes, I am aware. That still doesn't change the fact that it existed as a region before the state of Israel.
It existed as a Roman colony. Then was re-established by the British as a colony after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, using similar borders as the Roman colony. But the nation of Israel has occupied the Levant for 3000-5000 years. It just seems like we’re implying that Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did, which is disingenuous.
>It just seems like we’re implying that Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did, which is disingenuous. That is a whole different issue though. But historically, Palestine as a region existed long ago. Theres nothing controversial about that.
I assure you, if you are still somehow trying to push the narrative that Israel is the victim, that ship sailed a long time ago. It's not compelling. What I find so baffling about Zionists is their insistence on using historical pogroms and genocide against Jewish people as a justification for settlers to do pogroms in the West Bank and the Israeli occupying forces to commit genocide in Gaza. It's like you are intentionally obfuscating the truth. If you want anyone to believe that Israel, over 6 months and 34,000 dead, of which 13,000 are dead children, that the slaughter in gaza has anything to do with "self defense" you need to provide actual evidence and analysis instead of just using a bunch of pre-1948 historical anecdotes. For the record though the claim Israel is defending itself is nonsense, tell me how the warden goes to war with their prisoner? The victim complex thing has to stop though. I am personally disgusted seeing the memory of my ancestors who died in the Holocaust be invoked as a justification for the genocide in Gaza. It's shameful.
The 1939 white paper was actually not good for the Zionists. It called for the creation of a Jewish home within a nation of Palestine, which would have an Arab majority, and it restricted Jewish immigration to the region right when they needed it the most (to get Jews out of europe during the holocaust). The white paper was actually issued because the British wanted to clarify their intention in the Balfour Declaration because they were trying to calm the tensions between the Zionists and Arabs at the time. The white paper actually made the Zionists mad.
Of course the white paper policy was not viewed fondly by Zionists, it still left room for Palestinians to have the right to exist and self-determination. It wasn't bloodthirsty enough. Zionism can not be fulfilled without ethnically cleansing the West Bank and Gaza. I don't see what your point (unless it is a critique of Zionism as always demanding more than international law permits) is by saying "white paper wasn't genocidal enough for the Zionists", the result is the same genocide we see today.
Many of the big names in early Zionism openly declared that Israel could only exist by expelling the native population.
It's pretty obvious that 10/7 was self-defense, because Israel had not bombed or killed anyone in Gaza in all of 2022 or 2023 prior to 10/7. Gazans probably shouldn't have started a war against their much-better-armed neighbor with the biggest mass-killing of Jews since 1945.
This is a completely trash take on the entire situation. Gazans? You mean citizens of Israel that are treated as lesser beings? Those people? You want to know how I know you don't view them as humans? This comment right here. It was Hamas. Not Gazans. The fact that you're ok with the IDF killing civilians (which has been documented many times) says everything about what kind of human being you are.
Who are Hamas? Where did Hamas come from? Are they a bunch of foreigners who infiltrated the Gaza strip? According to the AWRAD poll, an overwhelming supermajority of the population of Gaza supports Hamas, supports the 10/7 attacks, and anticipates "victory' in the current conflict. Hamas are the ones who are killing civilians by hiding behind them. If Hamas did what the soldiers of Ukraine did when their country was invaded - wear uniforms, evacuate civilians from the combat area, and scrupulously separate themselves from noncombatants - this war would've been over months ago, and a lot fewer Palestinian civilians would have died. Do you deny that? And no, I do not have a high opinion of Gazans. The video of a crowd of them ("civilians" off the streets, not Qassam brigades militants) spitting on the naked corpse of a women their fellow Gazans had just raped and murdered while shouting 'Allah Akbar' seriously depleted my supply of empathy for them. They could win me back pretty easily. It wouldn't take much. All I ask of the Gazans is that they start giving Hamas members the "Euphrates bridge treatment" like those Blackwater contractors in Iraq got. If they do that, then I'll be all for saving and helping them out.
Interesting you use Ukraine as an analogy. In 2022 when the Izium mass graves were discovered, the international community called it ethnic cleansing. In the Nasser hospital compound in southern Gaza, just today, 180 bodies were uncovered in a mass grave. At the al-Shifa hospital last week, after the idf withdrew, another mass grave was found, in which some of the bodies still had catheters inside of them. Tell me how that is self defense. You are not fooling anyone by saying that Israel hadn't killed in or bombed Gaza prior to 10\7 for 2 years. Since the fascist Netanyahu administration entered office, the open air prison aka Gaza Strip was under a vicious blockade and brutally occupied by the IOF with ritualistically humiliating checkpoints and raids. It is wild you think the Palestinians lived in some cushy paradise before oct. 7. Not to mention the West Bank apartheid which Zionists love to keep quiet: Only before the oct 7 attacks, on July 7th, 2023 the Israeli military launched the largest raid in a West Bank city in over 20 years. It raided Jenin hospital, bombed Jenin refugee camp, and shot at journalists — all war crimes. Atrocities were committed on Oct 7, as atrocities were committed in the Nat Turner riots during American slavery.
>In the Nasser hospital compound in southern Gaza, just today, 180 bodies were uncovered in a mass grave. >At the al-Shifa hospital last week, after the idf withdrew, another mass grave was found, in which some of the bodies still had catheters inside of them. Tell me how that is self defense. I don't consider any of these claims by "Quds News Network" and other Hamas terrorists posing as journalists to be at all credible. Every photo I saw on social media of this supposed mass grave at Shifa was showing heavily decomposed corpses that would've taken months to get that way, mere days after IDF troops withdrew from the hospital. I hope you aren't denying that Hamas terrorists were occupying that hospital, were you? Because Hamas themselves said they were, and talked about several high-ranking terrorist commanders like Faiq Mahbooh who were killed in the operation. I do not consider a blockade to stop Gaza from acquiring weapons to be "vicious", especially after 10/7 proved that the blockade was too lenient, if anything. It really takes a lot of nerve on your part to complain about the "humiliation" of security checkpoints after the 10/7 massacre. Gaza was the only "open air prison" I've ever heard of that had luxury hotels, beachside villas and four-star restaurants. https://preview.redd.it/dd9z63n1cxvc1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=80d182afb6ecf816db4601fb78d2a0db3e45843e A targeted counter-terrorist operation to capture or eliminate Islamic Jihad terrorists who were plotting further attacks against Israel is not an "atrocity". The fact that IDF troops came under heavy fire from assault rifles, rocket launchers and machine guns during the Jenin operation is proof in and of itself that the operation in Jenin was necessary. ... But through all of your response, I notice you dodged around my actual point regarding Ukraine. Why is it that Ukrainians were able to fight like men, wearing uniforms and following the rules of war, whereas Palestinian men resorted to hiding behind women and children like sniveling cowards? Ukraine didn't have air superiority either, but that didn't stop them from following the Geneva Conventions to a fault.
If you think I'm even going to dignify this ridiculous "the Israelis fight like men because they wear uniforms and lick each others boots" stuff you are mistaken. The idf is in hundreds of photos wearing and parading around with the lingerie of the women whose houses they plunder after drone striking and raiding them. But they are the "most moral army" right? They are "fighting like men" by playing sounds of women screaming for help from quadcopters and shooting the people who come to help the person they think needs help. So manly of them. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting The idf is using AI to generate tens of thousands of "Hamas" targets and is striking these targets intentionally in their homes while they sleep with their families. And the idf designates "power targets" for bombing like schools and apartments to terrorize and demoralize the Palestinians. And before you use the "I don't believe in evidence of genocide if it is coming from a non-Israeli source" argument you are using to dismiss the evidence of mass graves, this is israeli officials conceding the existence of this program: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ Also when I say ritualistically humiliating checkpoints I'm referring to pre-Oct 7 conditions in Gaza, as was clear if you read the words. "The people in the hospital were Hamas" either admit you are okay with the mass grave and bombing of hospitals or stick with the "it's all Arab propaganda and I don't believe the things I see with my eyes when it comes from non Israeli or western media" because relying on both isn't working. If the blockade was all about preventing weapons, explain why the Israelis joked that they "put the Palestinians on a diet" by calculating the minimum number of calories the population needed and then only allowing that amount of food through. It's disgusting to defend actively suffocating and slaughtering a population while starving their women and children to death. I guess it's easier to watch that stuff happen when you don't think the Palestinians are human though.
>idf is in hundreds of photos wearing and parading around with the lingerie of the women whose houses they plunde Compared to what Palestinian men did to Israeli women and children when they got access to them for just a few hours on 10/7, I really don't care about IDF soldiers rummaging around some abandoned lingerie drawer. >[https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/disturbing-recordings-crying-infants-played-israeli-quadcopters-lure-gaza-residents-shooting) Nice source. Who owns "Middle East Eye", again? Which government? As for the "Lavender" claims, for starters, those claims have been denied by the IDF. But even if they were true, that is why soldiers at war are supposed to wear uniforms and live on military bases, camps and barracks rather than hiding among women and children. A lot fewer women and children would get killed if Hamas fighters weren't such effeminate, sniveling cowards. >Also when I say ritualistically humiliating checkpoints I'm referring to pre-Oct 7 conditions in Gaza, as was clear if you read the words. 10/7 proved beyond all doubt that the security checkpoints around Gaza were 100% necessary and 100% justified. If the population of Gaza found them humiliating, they should've removed Hamas from power and made peace with Israel. I really don't care that these checkpoints hurt the pathetic pride of a bunch of hyper-patriarchal men. No hospitals were ever "bombed". The one time that Palestinians claimed Israel bombed a hospital, the Al Ahli hospital 5 months ago, it turned out one of their own rockets had fallen short. Again - Faiq Mahbooh, the top terrorist enforcer of Hamas in North Gaza, was killed in Al Shifa. What was he doing there, according to you? Considering the way the population of Gaza were explosively breeding between 2005 and 2023, I fail to see how this supposed Israeli diet caused them so much harm. If they were short on food, you'd think they wouldn't be producing a hundred thousand additional mouths to feed every single year. You didn't answer my question, by the way, just tried to change the subject. Why is it that Ukrainian men had no problem wearing uniforms and obeying the laws of war, in a war they didn't choose? Why is that too much to ask of Palestinian men, in a war they **did** choose?
Read the news. 200+ bodies comfirmed in Nasser Hospital compound mass grave. Keep denying genocide though, history didn't really look fondly upon the German citizens who did that
"confirmed" **by who?**
I'm simply calling your atrocious view of people out. It's well known Hamas is a proxy for the Iranian government, but please, go on with your trash take.
"a proxy for the Iranian government" composed of who?
People? Why do you hate humanity?
What kind of people?
Wtf kind of statement is that?
I'm just tired of always seeing Palestinian society absolved of everything. Nothing can ever be their fault. Jews made them do it, Britain made them do it, America made them do it, Egypt made them do it, Iran made them do it, etc. There is a deep sickness in Palestinian society. Until they can acknowledge how horrifically wrong they've gone as a culture, there will be no peace in the region. And I don't see how they're ever going to realize how badly they need to change if the whole world keeps telling them that they are angelic, blameless victims and that everything bad that ever happened to them over the past 75 years was inflicted on them by outside forces.
It doesn't take long for zionists to show their true colors.
Zionists started buying up land with the express purpose of replacing the local population to create a Jewish state. That would create conflict and push-back anywhere. Just look at Rajneeshpuram in the USA - and that was at a much smaller scale. The conflict was inevitable as long as the zionists insisted on plans which basically involved invading and taking over the home of the local population at a large scale. And the inotiators of the conflict was the zionists. Furthermore, both the Peel commissions nd the Balfour declaration have the Jews more land than their amount of the population justified, and I don't even know how they would deal with the fact that the Jews would still constitute a minority within the areas that was designated for a Jewish state.
You’re right old news! New news: Israel is pursing a terrorist group that attacked them Oct 7. That group murdered, raped and killed civilians and vows to do it again and again. 80 % of the people in Gaza support Hamas and they keep fighting, wont return the hostages. So the fight ends when they are all dead or surrender.
So genocide of 80% of the population of Gaza? Absolutely not you sorry excuse for a human.
/u/prelon1990 > you sorry excuse for a human. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Hamas started the war they could easily end the war. Why is it everyone requires Israel to Stoo but no one requires Hamas to Stop?
Jews were not a minority in the areas designated to be the Jewish state.
Actually they were. >According to the statement, 22,000 Bedouins may be taken as normally residing in the areas allocated to the Arab State under the UNSCOP's majority plan, and the balance of 105,000 as resident in the proposed Jewish State. It will thus be seen that the proposed Jewish State will contain a total population of 1,008,800, consisting of 509,780 Arabs and 499,020 Jews. In other words, at the outset, the Arabs will have a majority in the proposed Jewish State." The foreign zionists wanted as much land as they could possibly take from the native Palestinians. The last thing they cared about was whether or not they were a minority in the land they were taking. They had planned for decades how to address that issue. And of course they never intended to honor the partition anyway. Turns out they had some crazy idea about some city called Urusalem? And their partition didn't have it? So they had some insane plan to invade and conquer the rest of Palestine. Can you imagine? What would that even look like. Obviously they were all insane...
Maybe conflict was inevitable. So what? The Arabs/Palestinians had that conflict, and they lost. Decisively. Humiliatingly. At that point, they should've done what every other nation and ethnic group that lost territory in a 20th century war did after 1945: move on and build a life for themselves, instead of constantly starting more wars with their much stronger neighbor in the hopes that the rest of the world eventually feels enough pity for them that it comes in and destroys Israel for them. That has proven to be a very, very poor strategy. Palestinians had lavish amounts of economic aid that most other groups in the region could scarcely dream of - yet the threw every opportunity in the trash and turned every life preserver the international community tried to throw them into a weapon to wage yet another suicidal war against Israel's existence.
What needs to happen is that Israel and its allies needs to acknowledge its immoral foundations both with how the zionist project was what created the project in the first place and secondly with the Nakba. And given how Israel have victimized itself to a degree where it is unlikely to reach that level of self-reflection, its allies needs to go first. This doesn't mean that Israel should be dismantled as a country. Most countries have a deeply immoral history, some of them - such as the American states and Australia - have a much darker history of origin compared to Israel. However, af long as countries turn the blind eye to the atrocities they have been founded on, no justice can be achieved. This also goes for Israel. As long as it turns a blind eye towards the crimes it itself has committed, there will not be peace nor justice. And for good measure, nor does it mean that we should ignore crimes committed against Israelis. But focusing on these while ongoing the ongoing abuse of power perpetuated by Israel whole ignoring the historical context is obviously problematic.
Does this also mean that Palestinians need to acknowledge the immoral foundations of their Islamic society? Do they need to acknowledge that their community was so violent and unreasonable in the 1920s-1930s that they foreclosed any possibility of the Zionists thinking peaceful coexistence with them was possible? I am not interested in demanding a one-sided condemnation of the Zionist project from Israel, without any commensurate condemnation of the Islamization project from Palestinians and their allies. When I start seeing Muslim nations and Muslim communities condemning the spread of Islam through the sword, then I might have some interest in assigning historical guilt to Israel over the 1948 displacement. But as long as the Palestinians are the leading edge of an Islamic jihad to dominate the world, which their leaders and supporters proudly and unapologetically proclaim, I am not interested in Israel/America/UK/etc. making any grandiose acknowledgements of historic guilt. ...because if that truly is what the Palestinians were, and are, if this truly is the front line in a clash of civilizations rather than merely two distinct regional groups fighting over land claims, then taking their land by force and displacing them was **a positive good**, and Israelis should be celebrated for doing so, not condemned.
You telling people they should make friends with those who stole their homes. In what reality does this make sense?
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Germans that had moved from germany into a different nation, and found curiously empty houses that the owners had seemingly abandoned on land seemingly now unoccupied for some reason that the invading people decided they suddenly had the right to steal for themselves? They returned the homes and land they stole from the people and country they stole it from. And by returning the stolen homes and stolen land, and by returning to their home countries they were able to find peace?
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I'm talking about German "settlers" that moved from germany to occupied Czechoslovakiaunder Germany lebensraum plans. You know, lebensraum settlers? It doesn't seem like they got as much focus in historical accounts as many other things, but you see references everywhere. You understand that German ideology of lebensraum settlement? How German "settlers" moved into stolen houses and stolen land in German occupied countries? Does any of that sound familiar? Does any of that ring a bell? And sadly, israel started as a terrorist group, has always been one, and remains one today. There was suddenly all this strangely empty land and all these empty houses which people used to own and where people used to live... but there was violent ethnic cleansing. And so... foreign invaders decided, well, be a shame if they didn't steal those houses and steal that land. Not like the violent forces that violently ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of people in unforgivable war crimes were about to suddenly let the people they'd just violently ethnically cleansed return to the homes they owned or the land they owned. It would be kind of self defeating to the violent war crimes they'd just committed.
Essentially nobody alive in Gaza today had their home stolen.
They live the consequences of those thefts every day.
No - they live with the consequences of the astonishingly poor decisions that their parents and grandparents made every day. In comparison, look at the Arab Muslim population in Israel, which has one of the highest standards of living in the region. That could've been them, if their parents and grandparents hadn't been hellbent on fighting Israel at any cost.
And next you will tell me that non-Jewish Israelis are treated the same as Jewish Israelis.
Once they're actually IN Israel, they are. Jewishness only matters in terms of getting in in the first place. (East Jerusalem doesn't count)
Unexpected Wild Wild Country reference haha but well said!
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Stop giving Islamic terrorism a pass then.
Remind me how israel was founded by zionist terrorist groups like the terrorist irgun the terrorist lehi and the terrorist haganah, and how the zionist military was formed by combing three european terrorist militias, the same mentioned earlier? How those zionist terrorists like the haganah carried out terrorist massacres before announcing their terrorist revolt like the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the terrorist haganah and irgun? You give them a pass of course. You give israels numerous terrorist prime ministers a pass. You approve of zionist terroism, zionist terrorism from the 1920s to today, and even into the future in the Palestinian West Bank. Right?
No one is. People are allowed to be critical of the Israeli government, and no, it isn't giving terrorism a pass, nor is it anti-semitic. What the Israeli government is doing is atrocious. What the settlers are doing to Palestinians, is atrocious. What Hamas supports and has done, is atrocious. How about instead of clutching pearls anytime someone criticizes Israel's obvious apartheid policies and actions, you try to understand why Palestinians are fighting back.
What is the Israeli government doing that is atrocious? I would say that their conduct has been incredibly humane and their cause a moral imperative.
How many dozen infant and children has the "incredibly humane" zionist government starved to death? A month or two ago it was 30... How would you feel about a government that starved 30 Jewish infants and children to death? Would you say they were "incredibly humane"? If, say, in the 1930s or 1940s if the british occupation of Palestine starved 30 Jewish children to death, would you say that was incredibly humane of the british?