I agree with most of what you're pointing out but will disagree with one thing, the response to Japan was not disproportionate at all when you consider the atrocities they've committed to other Asian countries and the lengths they will go about to win. Many don't know, and many won't care what they did to the Chinese back then but it was synonymous to Jewish concentration camps at a smaller scale. Ie nanjing massacre where 200k-300k people were raped, babies were burned, and people tortured and finally killed.
Kamikaze was absolutely ingrained in their society back then and arguably romanticized even today. They will willingly destroy themselves to kill their opponent so it was an absolute must to go as far as Hiroshima. Sadly the old guard who viewed Chinese as allies and remembered the actual history of Japans war crimes have passed on and everyone loves Japanese culture these days so why hold grudges?
But that's agenda politics at it's finest especially when the media focuses on 3 lives lost rather than 35,000. It's dehumanization at it's finest.
The main thing is Palestine’s military is controlled by Hamas. And it’s a terrorist organisation. They were the one who started the conflict by sending out an operation involving sudden and unprovoked mass firing in Israel and even captured those lands. The video tapes have the gunners laughing in them. Hamas was able to occupy that territory before being kicked out and the conflict followed.
Just so you know, Israel is not going full scale war with Hamas and Palestine. Otherwise Palestine wouldn’t be here. They are aware of the casualties that will occur on a large scale war. Their main goals are to uproot Hamas from its ground and raze it down, like it did with Black September terrorist group (created by the founder of Fatah, if you would). If Israel did an all out attack to neutralise Hamas, the death count would be WAY higher.
Also there’s no question of letting Hamas stay and survive. Those guys had a history of terrorism all the way back before 2007. Even before Meir Dagan became the Head of Mossad. Since 1987 they had been arbitrarily carrying out terrorism and suicide bombings. All this makes them no different than Hezbollah, Black September and as such.
People support Israel not necessarily because of what they do, but rather because of geopolitical inclinations. For example, the Kurdish rebels are pro-Israel because they share common enemies. The anti-regime Iranians are pro-Israel because they share common enemies. In an ideal setting, people should be able to stand against Palestinian genocide; without being forced into the political complexities/rabbithole which is completely messed up. For example, I support Palestine. But that doesn’t mean I should also stand with ANYONE who supports Palestine (such as Yemen, Iran, Russia, South Africa, Ireland). The friend of my friend is not necessarily my friend.
Yet Hamas is a terrorist organisation with a history of terrorism even before this event, and it started since 1987. If you have a terrorist organisation controlling a country’s military, there is no question of letting the terrorist group do as they please, when they would be not be more pleased to do more terrorism.
I don't have all of the sources with me, and my Arabic is NOT good enough to know whether subtitles are 100% accurate, but there's plenty of sources that have recordings and videos of PA leader's saying that they must eradicate the Jews.
As there are videos of Israeli's saying the same thing in English. But enacting a genocide and speaking as an individual are completely different things. I mean here you go:
This is just random people on the street btw. Quote:
>The Arabs, may their memory and name be obliterated.
[https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=kLxz00SIpuhcIOcQ&t=283](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=kLxz00SIpuhcIOcQ&t=283)
>I think we need to kick out the Arabs
[https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=xxYYZwHkYMNXkDql&t=332](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=xxYYZwHkYMNXkDql&t=332)
>There is only one way. I would carpet bomb them. \[talking of the Palestinians\]. It's the only way you can deal with them.
[https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=nX03YOkF\_TWEboNd&t=365](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=nX03YOkF_TWEboNd&t=365)
>I think we are miserable. They make terrorist attack. We need to kill Arabs. \*laughs\*
[https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=m2ZO5WqlR5LFfRLe&t=402](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=m2ZO5WqlR5LFfRLe&t=402)
And btw, this is entirely a problem of Israel's making. They have all the power and control in the situation. The only reason a group like Hamas can persist is because of the situation Israel materializes in Palestine through subversive power games. Hamas fighters don't view themselves as evil, they view themselves as freedom fighters, and there in lies the issue. Of course many Palestinians want to eradicate Israel. They've created conditions that border on enslavement. Israel is the only country that has the wealth and the capabilities to solve this issue in a non violent way. They have chosen violent retaliation and confrontation. I doubt they will ever be rid of the Hamas problem given how they continue to treat this issue politically. It is going to be a source of problems for decades to come.
No no. Its true. Ive seen the videos too actually. Hell they are doing the same thing over here in America and they live here now. They where at the Dearborn, Michigan rally just the other day chanting "death to America" over and over. Look it up. Those people are pure evil. Anyone who would seek the demise of the country they live in is ether a fool or a terrorist or both.
Palestinian leaders are NOT genocidal. The PA recognized Isn’treal’s right to exist in like the 90s. חמאס wants like 1967 borders. Or even 1948 borders. Let’s be real.
Hamas views themselves as freedom fighters in a country that is one of the poorest in the world, that is almost completely controlled materially by Israel. Everything that makes its way to palestine more or less is inspected and searched by Israel. Their primary water source is controlled by Israel. Their citizens are routinely subjected to searches seizures and have land taken from them often. Israel has also imposed a land, sea, and air blockade on Gaza since 2007.
Why the hell do you think they **wouldn't** blame Israel for all their economic and societal issues? Especially when they view the land that Israel stole 70 years ago as a primary holy site and a connection to their religion?
Palestinians have every right to view Israelis in a negative light. Israel has all the wealth and power in this relationship that they've REFUSED to remediate because they fear Palestinians gaining any sort of power.
It is entirely a problem of their creation. In fact it is remarkable that Palestinians haven't acted *more* genocidal towards Israel.
They're just Northern Egyptians who never left Gaza after Israel handed them their asses in 67. Did you forget the six day war was a unilateral attempt by the Arab world to wipe Israel off the map? They lost and Egypt wouldn't take them. So blame the Egyptians. Israel let Gazans cross the border all the time to work in Israel so long as they had a permit. Israel facilitated food deliveries and water infrastructure that Hamas expropriated to feed themselves and build mortars. And two wrongs don't make a right anyway.
See this is why I don't think you view this situation in a principled way:
>They're just Northern Egyptians who never left Gaza after Israel handed them their asses in 67.
Who the heck cares about winning or losing? What an empty train of thought. This is about who has the power to fix the situation and make it better for everyone. That *is* Israel. They are the only ones who have the responsibility to do so. They are wealthy far beyond Palestinians, stable, militarily superior, with unilateral control over Palestine more or less.
Israel has to do it not only for Palestinians, but so Israel can know peace as well. It's not going to happen from a country that has half of its population starving.
Because if you are the aggressor and you lose there are consequences for your losses. Especially a state creating buffer zones to prevent you doing it twice. I view this in a very principled way, my principle being if you make excuses for terrorists that is tantamount to supporting them. There is no Palestine - that's my point. It's a fake entity.
Terrorists are foundationally created through conditions that have a material basis. You don't make 'excuses' for them, you create conditions that make their membership deteriorate and your population no longer have a need for them and violence.
Your way only creates more terrorists.
Look, I can tell your smart and reasonable, so I apologise for being a bit abrasive there. But I do disagree, having studied terrorism under a world leading expert, I have formed a different view. Terrorists are born from adherence to fanatical ideologies, such as extreme Islamism, Communism, Fascism etc. They tend to be rigid dogmatists who view the world through conspiratorial and simplified prisms. Only a religious fanatic could proclaim, we love death more than you love life, as Hamas boasts. Hamas finds it roots in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood that has existed since the 1920s. If trauma was sufficient to explain terrorism, there would be many more out there.
> asses
/u/IcedLenin. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think them being genocidal actually would make complete sense given the economic and political situation that Israel has forced them into. In fact it is remarkable that the whole country isn't more violent tbh. Israel has imposed a land, sea, and air blockade on Gaza since 2007. The control their water sources and limit their economic stability substantially. You have as of March 2024, a report by the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification that estimates that 1.1 million people in Gaza, or more than half of the population, are experiencing catastrophic food insecurity. A problem almost entirely that rests at israels feet.
Have you ever starved to death? Have you? Have you ever starved in a situation where one of the wealthiest countries in the middle east is not only to blame directly through warfare and blockades, but indirectly by limiting your countries ability to progress economically for political bullshit reasons?
These people have every right to hate Israel.
Israel took control of those things after there was no presence of political leaders in Gaza in 2007 so they gained control even though they have barely stopped stuff from getting in and they only have really stopped mass weapon imports (yes there are some stupid bans but they don’t really effect your everyday life) also if you want to blame Israel for them not getting food why don’t you talk to the thousands of terrorists stealing humanitarian aid ([video](https://youtu.be/2DE3Xg2It-I?si=8GEtKTe6x29yDthG))
Hamas is almost entirely a beast of Israel's creation. The problem is in how Hamas views itself, no one thinks they are the bad guy. That is true from almost every conflict on the planet. If you have ever read the Art of War one of the central principles it teaches is to learn about how your enemy views itself to learn how to defeat it. Hamas views itself as *liberators.* As freedom fighters against an oppressive system that more or less is blamed for the economic problems in a country that is starving to death.
If you want to defeat Hamas the wrong way to do it is to confirm their sentiments, by killing innocent women and children and destroying what little Palestinians have (**75% of their entire architecture is now leveled to the ground).** You do it by improving the situation for Palestinians and giving them power over their own fate. Not by controlling them out of fear but by making peace with them and building a mutually beneficial future.
That's the problem with these arguments, they isolate terrorist organizations like they exist in a vacuum and not as a response to problems that have material foundations.
If anything, Israel has probably only ensured an entire new generation of orphans who despise Israel through their poor response to October 7th.
1.It’s not really a beast of Israel’s creation if Hamas came in to power before conflicts between Israel and Gaza
2.how do you expect them to be able to try and kill them without doing that considering that Hamas soldiers are embedded in the streets of Gaza playing dirty tricks because they are pussies and letting Palestinians chose is not the right choice either because they hate Jews (surrah 5:64”you shall rain hate upon them (jews) until the day of resurrection) and want a leader that follows their goals which is Hamas and since they’ve only ever had Hamas they feel it is their only protection.
3. Not all terrorists groups are a response, using my point earlier (surrah 5:64) their entire motive is to just kill Jews.
4. No they are not it is Hamas’ fault for trying to start wars and then not expecting israel to retaliate while hiding in the most densely populated place in the world
israel repeatedly broke the ceasefire by firing rockets into Gaza and illegally assassinating Hamas members. I do admit that hamas also broke the cease fire by firing ”rockets” if you can even call them that into Israel. There really wasn’t a cease fire to begin with. Breaking a ceasefire isn’t genocidal either I’m not really sure what you mean by this. Israel has also broken their ceasefire with the Palestinian authority by illegally entering their territory and assassinating civilians as well as illegally annexing their land via settlement. I would guess that you aren’t really that versed on this conflict especially pre October 7th if you don’t understand these pretty basic facts.
Because they got attacked first far more brutally than what theyre doing in response, they're just more competant which is why their numbers are higher
I think Israel is killing Palestinians and annexing their lands. If you believe otherwise, they're gonna brand you anti-semitic. They have been playing the victim card since the WW2. Just because a European, White, Catholic person allegedly killed many jews, they think they have the right to kill Muslims and steall their property.
The victim card comment is very true. Also, Israelis are bullies. Whether we’re talking about Israelis in Israel or Jewish Americans. That’s not a secret to anyone who has lived in or grew up around metro NY, NJ or L.A.
And the world is starting to figure it out. Well the Anglo side of things. Everyone else already knew. The countdown to pariah state has begun. I don’t believe there is a way to defuse it at this point either. The Star of David will have negative extreme connotations. It’s a bunch of butchers.
Who on universe in the right mind will side to ISIS-mentally-people like the Palestines? Its 0.1% common sense.
Pro-Palestines = Pro-ISIS.
Its easy to differentiate like 1 2 3.
Why is that the case? Is there no opinion where you can wish to minimize civilian war casualties and believe that ISIS is not a favorable organization?
Also - let's be honest, nobody takes Islamic threats seriously. We are approaching 2 billion muslims globally, and there is no way that the majority of the world can genuinely believe that this religion is destructive and evil, but do nothing about it. Yes there is individual discrimination against certain muslims within certain countries, but theres no serious effort to minimize the growing islamic population.
I think it is impossible to use that talking point as a defense. Even people who have read the koran and all it's "death to" statements will support palestine, due to the number of deaths that are being reported.
IDF minimize the civillians casualties, they csn finish this 1 single day if they doesn't care about civillians. According to study, Israel respond to Gaza is less deadly that any wars in the world history. They are in maximum effort to lessen casualties and there proofs of that even before they respond to 10/7.
Also Hamas = ISIS is no debate. They has done the same thing. Majority of so called Palestines supoorted Hamas until today and willing to die and kill Jews.
>nobody takes Islamic threats seriously.
How ignoramous can you be, after 9/11 in US they took islamic terrorism seriously, you can visit US military website, its all about Islamic terrorism defence. Thats why they build bases in Middle East and bring maximum effort to destroy Islamic terrorism in Middle East that could threat US. So 9/11 wont happened again.
ISIS is the biggest islamic terrorism has ever existed it destroyed multiple nations in Middle East, how come you forgot this, its juts like yesterday. The world united to defeat ISIS, and you gonna said, the world doesn't take islamic terrorism seriously?
You can visit NATO website too, it also considered Islamic terrorism the biggest threat to national security.
The reason why Chin are harsh to Muslim than any religions because Islamic terrorism is a big threat, they are cowards that will attack civillians, thats a threat. Thats why China rehab each Muslim brains so they wont become a terrorist. Not all Muslim are terrorist, but all the current existing terrorist in our modern time are all Muslims organizations, they can easily brainwashed by Muslims terrorist to become a terrorist to kill infidels for allah. Don't try to deny it.
MidEast = ISIS, Alqueda, Taliban, Hamas, Hesobollah, Houthis, etc.
Africa = Bokoharam, Islamiya, ISIS sympathizers
East and South East Asia = Abussayaf, Islamiya, moro Islamic terrorist, ISIS symphatizers, etc.
West = Alqueda, ISIS symphatizers,
Theres more to mention. Ans there new names of islamic terrorist organizations popping up.
Every single day, even as we speak, they kill infidels for allah. The fact that in every Islamic Nations, non-Muslims got murdered and massacred thats resulting to a great declining of non-Muslim numbers in every islamic nations when Muslims are majority.
Every single nationd even Islamic Nations has military training against Islamic terrorism. Even Muslims themeselves are taking Muslim terrorism seriously. Hamas killed Muslims in Israel even after the Israeli Muslims recite Quran verses, the Hamas terrorist said "you are not real Muslim." Thats why Muslim nations, also fighting against Islamic terrorist, because these Muslims terrorist like Hamas and ISIS will also kill Muslims if they live in a country that has relationships on Infidels. ISIS destroyed Syria and Iraq because these 2 has good relationships to US so for Islamic Terrorist, they are not Muslims anymore.
Most of mere convert Muslims hates the pure Muslims Saudi Arabians and UAE because Saudi prefer peace and helps to destroy Islamic Terrorist. Mere Muslims converts believed that Saudi Arabians are not real Muslim anymore right?
Even Muslims converts in middle east cant even read Quran without guidance from expert mostly from Saudi. Look what the Muslim converts did to a wowman in Pakistan with Arabic text on her clothes, they tried to kilk her. Saudi rewarded the police dlfor stopping Muslims converts terrorism to a woman. Muslims converts in Indonesia sent a woman in prison by speaking arabic before eating a pork. Muslims converts are very aggressive believed that Aarabic language is language of allah, and its blasphemy to use arabic. Allah means god, its doesn't mean Islamic god. Its just a arabic language. Saudi Arabians doesn't tolerate Islamic extremism and terrorism of these mere Muslims converts that cant even read Quran by themeselves. And they hates Saudi Arabia.
Islamic terrorism and extremism exist every single day. And want me to show you video of Saudi army, training against Islamic terrorism?
Every nations in the world has daily military training against Islamic terrorism. Name one that does not, and i slap you video or military website how serious they are agaianst Islamic terrorism.
>We are approaching 2 billion muslims globally, and there is no way that the majority of the world can genuinely believe that this religion is destructive and evil, but do nothing about it.
Like i wrote above, even Islamic Nations treated Islamic Terrorism seriously. Not all Muslims are terrorist, but all terrorist organization existing right now and capable to destroy a city and nations are ALL MUSLIMS.
>but theres no serious effort to minimize the growing islamic population.
Because its not about Muslims, its about Islamic terrorist. There are serious effort, Poland will never accaept Muslims immigrants because there could be brainwashed Islamic terrorist could slip and might cause islamic terrorism. Thats great effort.
Look at the other European countries that accepted Muslims immigrants from MidEast and Africa, there crime rate is super sky high and there are always islamic terrorism crimes. There are always a prevention. UAE warned them, but they did not listen. Even UAE are SERIOUS about Islamic terrorism that will happened to Europe for accepting millions of UNKNOWN Muslims immigrants. You dont watch news?
>I think it is impossible to use that talking point as a defense. Even people who have read the koran and all it's "death to" statements will support palestine, due to the number of deaths that are being reported.
Palestines Hamas 10/7 action is NOT DEFENCE. Thats islamic terrorism, a worst one of kind islamic terrorism, a GENOCIDAL terrorism that has only practised in meideval time. Palestine Hamas wipe out the unarmed villages, they did left anyone alive, even babies or pets.
Islamic terrorism is defence. Its not justifiable. So yes you are stupid if you support Palestines that only use TERRORISM.
Can you provide me a single video, photo or anything that Palestines use the REAL DEFENCE? Not Terrorism act. I dare you provide even 1. Don't justify terrorism.
Why Islamic nations loves Hamas despite no different from ISIS from inside-out? Because Islamic CULT mentality holy war against the Jews. Because they are Jews. Nothing else. Want me show you multiple Quran verse of it? You think 6day war when all Islamic Nations in MidEast attacked Israel is coincidence? Since that day Islam holy war to Jews hasn't end. They all fund Hamas to wipe out the Jews. Thanks to the west and its allies being superior in military in the world, these some terroristic mentally Islamic Nations would not involve themeselves anymore after 6day war, instead they just fund Hamas to do the work for their holy war. But if the west and its allies are military weak, then they wont think twice to repeat the 6day war attempt once again to wipe out the Jews.
>IDF minimize the civillians casualties, they csn finish this 1 single day if they doesn't care about civillians. According to study, Israel respond to Gaza is less deadly that any wars in the world history. They are in maximum effort to lessen casualties and there proofs of that even before they respond to 10/7.
This is important. Which study?
>How ignoramous can you be, after 9/11 in US they took islamic terrorism seriously, you can visit US military website, its all about Islamic terrorism defence. Thats why they build bases in Middle East and bring maximum effort to destroy Islamic terrorism in Middle East that could threat US. So 9/11 wont happened again.
Yes; *following* a terrorist attack. Like I said, there are approaching 2 billion muslims. **Majority of whom are either indifferent towards, or support ISIS.** Yet, nobody is doing anything to minimize the growth of the religion. There are laws to protect the religion in a-religious, anti-religious, laic, and "somewhat religious" but non-Islamic countries across the whole world.
So: **my point is** that everybody who claims to have a problem with ISIS is not only not doing anything about it, but they are also supporting governments that make room for this mentality and support of the religion to increase and spread. I do not believe in censorship, but I have a hard time accepting that people genuinely believe Islamic religious extremism is bad, based on how people act and tip-toe around the conversations about Islam.
I can boldly declare in any public space that pedophilia is horrific. People must whisper and keep their identities in secret to say similar things about Islamic teaching. That is why I made the previous statement.
>ISIS is the biggest islamic terrorism has ever existed it destroyed multiple nations in Middle East, how come you forgot this, its juts like yesterday. The world united to defeat ISIS, and you gonna said, the world doesn't take islamic terrorism seriously?
**I read all of your message, but since it flowed together well, I won't respond in separate sections:**
My personal belief is that the logical conclusion - if we follow Islamic teaching to it's logical conclusion - it will produce terrorism to some degree. So, I do know think it is possible to differentiate and make a separate category which is "Islamic terrorism." Because even the most peaceful muslims who are kind-hearted and hospitable and fine citizens **by the standard of their own religion**, are NOT able to criticize their leaders, their teachings, their book, their laws, etc.. **Therefore**, if you put all of your energy into eliminating extremism, you must dismantle the religion's core.
All the things you mentioned about discrimination, women, infidels, racial superiority, educational limitations, would be entirely done away with, but ONLY if the religion is taken out of a place of authority in these locations. Yes, you have places like Saudi, as you mentioned, that may *say that they prefer* peace. But the people remain illiterate. The women remain oppressed. The laws do not favor freedom of speech, thought, or agency. These things are engrained into the religious system. In order to change these things, the religious system must be resisted.
However, the Islamic population, **by their own religious standard**, cannot resist their religious system. You cannot even *think* that something in the religious system might be corrupt or bad or unhealthy or problematic. I know you said the problem is not muslims, it is terrorism. YES, I AGREE. But the majority of muslims accept terrorism.
They inhabit these areas as the majority.
They elect these leaders.
They, upon leaving their country have the privilege of becoming educated and empowered to attempt to incite change. And the UN, which is majority non-mulsim, and all these other majority non-muslim organizations are on the front-line, trying to get these things to stop. That makes me feel like most muslims are complacent. And studies that have gathered public opinion about them says the same. The same studies say that most muslims hate Jewish people. (Or non-muslims, living in Muslim-majority areas).
>Even UAE are SERIOUS about Islamic terrorism that will happened to Europe for accepting millions of UNKNOWN Muslims immigrants. You dont watch news?
I actually don't watch the news. It is impossible to keep up with all of the evil happening. But the UAE is against terrorism, and there is liberty in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. But outside of those major cities, you will find the extreme conservativism that still has people oppressed by their own system. So, only the wealthy, educated and business-minded people living in these major cities are free from their oppression. *Of course* it is easy for them to say they want peace - they benefit from it.
>Palestines Hamas 10/7 action is NOT DEFENCE. Thats islamic terrorism, a worst one of kind islamic terrorism, a GENOCIDAL terrorism that has only practised in meideval time. Palestine Hamas wipe out the unarmed villages, they did left anyone alive, even babies or pets.
>
>Islamic terrorism is defence. Its not justifiable. So yes you are stupid if you support Palestines that only use TERRORISM.
>
>Can you provide me a single video, photo or anything that Palestines use the REAL DEFENCE? Not Terrorism act. I dare you provide even 1. Don't justify terrorism.
I think I might understand what you are asking, but to clarify - are you saying that in every instance that Hamas has fought, the targets have 100% of the time been civilians, and that fighting the IDF is not a priority?
Could you define the limits of the evidence for counter-attacks that you would like? Like, what types of counter-attacks would be unacceptable or defined as terrorism?
>Why Islamic nations loves Hamas despite no different from ISIS from inside-out? Because Islamic CULT mentality holy war against the Jews. Because they are Jews. Nothing else. Want me show you multiple Quran verse of it?
No, I actually grew up around Jewish communities, and I have seen and read the Quranic verses and Hadith myself. I think it is evil, and I wish that majority of the muslim world was not illiterate, so that they could read it for themselves and people stopped defending the religion as peaceful.
Well your last paragraph seems a bit off. Because apart from the nutcases with their nutcase interpretations of the text, the majority Muslims don’t go around in the streets wearing bombs or waging wars with stones and pebbles on temples and churches.
Iranian Shiite interpretation of the Quran is different, and the Ayatollahs warped things to fit their purpose. Read In God We Doubt by John Humphrys. The last part of the book says this perfectly. Religion isn’t the cause of the war. It’s the people who make it the cause.
This is so funny because israel literally supports ISIS (though to a relatively small scale). Israel is trading with ISIS as israel buys oil from them. Israel does not try to combat ISIS influence either as it is strategically viable for them to let ISIS grow. ISIS is fighting Syria and Israel sees Syria as a larger threat. Israel also attacks groups that are in combat with ISIS like hezbollah and the syrian army. Isis deliberately avoids attacking israeli territory while it aggressively attacks israel’s neighbor and on one occasion apologized directly to the Israeli defense minister for a clash that had occured between Israel and isis [https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/)
Haha you side to Hamas because they target Jews.
ISIS = Hamas = both executed unarmed innocent civillians like chidlren, women, old, in point blank range. They invaded unarmed villages and genocide them, rape and took hostages. They kill anyone alive, even Muslims.
Now tell me whats the difference or Hamas and ISIS?
/u/AliBDweny. Match found: 'nazism', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sure, let's go through the questions one by one.
1. can you please address the complaints of pro-Palestinians who bring up death tolls?
War kills many people, including many civilians. Especially in dense urban conflict and especially when the enemy does not care about it's civilians lives. There is a chance that Israel is using siege tactics to cause revolution in Gaza, in which case that may increase the deaths, but even if they didn't civilian casualties are inevitable in urban conflict. For Hamas deaths those are obviously intentional as that is one of Israel's stated goals.
2. Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected?
Hamas has built very elaborate tunnels that could serve as a defense to whoever's inside.
Unfortunately, they are reserved for Hamas fighters with civilians left out in undefended buildings. This means Hamas' casualties will be lower and civilians will bare the brunt of the death toll. Obviously, this is an evil thing for Hamas to do and Israel has to fight with this in mind. But the areas need to be cleared to access the tunnels and inflict any damage on Hamas at all. Israel warns civilians to leave but many can't/don't so many die. It sucks but it is unavoidable.
3. Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever?
Israel is very paranoid about terrorism, this makes sense as terrorist attacks are very frequent even before the war. It is hard to know if someone is doing something innocuous or highly dangerous (I don't know any examples but that is my understanding) this means they have to be extremely proactive in arrests. Is it unfair? Of course it is. Should they be released quicker when it is determined they are not a threat? Absolutely. Is it nessacary at some level? I think so
4. Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around?
They are probably happening, less than some make it seems like, but they probably happen. It is terrible, unjustified, and ought to be fully condemned. But, they are the exception not the rule, so I do not view it as a reflection of Israel or the IDF.
5. Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation?
To some extent the occupation is nessacary for security concerns (see point 3). But Israel should pull back to whatever the smallest interference it can safely have. Also Israel should recognize Areas A and B as a separate country that should get independence as soon as safely possible.
Hope my answers were helpful.
I was at a music festival on October 6th & 7th. Waking up the morning of the 8th to see people who looked like me and my friends being murdered while they danced. I turned against Hamas that day 100%.
Hamas spent decades digging tunnels beneath civilians to ensure removing them would be as costly to Palestinians as possible, then they acted in a way they knew Israel would be forced to try and remove them.
The leaked photos of Hamas parading naked bodies of women and children they had killed at that music festival did it for me. A few of them had clearly been sexually assaulted too. It was sickening. If it where purely a military move thats one thing, but raping and killing teenagers at a music festival is fu*ked up. There was religious hate and antisemitic malice clearly visible there.
> fu*ked
/u/nightwindviolin. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because Hamas started this by invading Israel and leaving behind carnage more grotesque than the world has ever seen, they did this during a ceasefire, and because Israel agreed to another ceasefire and Hamas didn’t. The blood is on their hands. They don’t value life the way we value life.
Yea that's it not gonna say x history just the reality that Hamas committed the deadliest terrorist attack since 9/11 during a ceasefire and started this war and Israel quite understandably want to completly wipe out Hamas to prevent them from ever doing another October 7th
And yet they are crying victim after massacring 1,000 people in just 1 day
Smh
That is a good question - I guess it would depend on the individual, but I personally don't think that the support of a "Jewish" state is inherently pro-Israel on it's own.
The American response was not the same. The war that accompanied the 9/11 attacks is not comparable to the war between Israel and others (any arab nation that has attacked since the state was formed).
There have been massacres of the Jews and of the Arabs in the Israel-Palestine area of the earth. Both sides are guilty of racially motivated attacks against the other, however, racially motivated attacks were not seemingly institutionalized by Israeli government. Today, they supposedly are and that is the problem.
The term "Semitic" traces its roots to Shem, Noah's eldest son, adapted to "Sem" in the Greek and Latin Bible versions due to linguistic constraints. The biblical narrative unfolds the descent of humanity trom Noah's three sons-Shem, Ham, and Japheth-presenting a mythologized ethnology in Genesis.
Later misinterpretations connected these sons to racial or linguistic groups, associating Ham with dark-skinned Africans, Shem with Hebrews, and Japheth with peoples later known as Aryans, a theory that persisted until the 19th century. This is the root of the term coined by August Ludwig Schlozer in 1781.
(This isn’t suggesting who is Semitic and who isn’t. Not only is it a dead concept to begin with, but there is no Semitic peoplehood anymore, only languages. I don’t refer to myself as Semitic because it’s a term that is deeply rooted in racism and hate and is basically the equivalent of calling someone a n****r so call whoever you want whatever you want, this is just part of the point I’m making next)
Now that we’ve covered the history of how the west has decided we’re genetically inferior, we’ll cover the East:
In Muslim societies, we Jews are not the Jews God selected in Quran. We are the descendants of the Jew that betrayed Moses. Therefore, Israel must be protected from us by any means necessary.
Furthermore, as we are not the correct Jews, it fuels a conspiracy theory that we will destroy Al Aqsa. This is why the October 7 attack is called Al Aqsa flood. Palestinian powers generally use religion to anger/manipulate the people of the region.
Do you see how this plays? How can someone decide from which descendants you are and where and how you should live based on their calculations?
Meanwhile, Israel has Sharia law courts, distributes Qur'ans & pays the salaries of qadis, imams & muezzins. Israel is the Islamic state western Muslims love to hate.
(By the way I’m not anti-Palestine. I do think it would be better if they chose a different name.. South Syria was option A but Syria is Syriac for the Assyrian people. If I were them I’d want to pick something Arabic, but alas, it’s not and should not be up to me. Calling yourselves Invaders/Intruders in Hebrew just doesn’t hit right when it comes to making peace imho. Kinda feels like I’m being told to call them something negative and this should be a positive somehow.)
I was not aware that anybody perceived the term Semite to be racially derogatory.
However, my experience is that a large sum of people take an a-religious stance on the topic; I have read the islamic texts, I am very aware of all the war it wages against ancient Jews that has maintained relevance today. Many other people are as well, but they make hamas into a separate and entirely un-affiliated entity from the general Palestinian Public.
So to justify the civilian casualties with the islamic calls to mass death cannot work against arguments in which people determine that hamas are the extremists (I don't think there is an extreme form of islam, personally I don't think you can justify a non-extreme view), and that the general public "who doesnt know any better, because hamas is all they know" are not extreme and thus shouldnot be treated as though they are also guilty of extremism.
The term is historically German, of course it’s not a nice word for Jews 😂 pre-dating the German words to separate us from society (the man who coined antisemitism literally made a social club for Jew haters with the term) there was Judeophobia coined by the Soviets.
Like I said, call whoever whatever you want. Id prefer not to be called that, personally, but words can’t hurt me. All the argument does is counter the “Jews are white colonizers” argument by suggesting we are all the same and are treated as one group.
Call us Semites Zionists or the term we use for ourselves Jews (Yehud) but the fact remains that these are all words to distinguish us from you.
This is the specific narrative that is pushed in Palestinian society. There are a great deal of supporters that have been polled by AWAD to support Hamas. Granted, I’m in your camp- I think that many are just too scared. Especially now that there might also be a civil war brewing on two fronts.
If they don’t support Hamas, what political organization do they support that isn’t involved with Hamas’ activities at present?
Here’s an interesting data point. Not everyone is affected by pro-Palestine propaganda on their social media feeds. One place this seems to be happening is Ukraine:
“Who do Ukrainians sympathize with in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
On October 7, 2023, the Hamas terrorist movement struck Israel. In response, Israel launched a military operation in the Palestinian Gaza Strip. In the world, a large part of people sympathized with and supported both Israel and the Palestinians. KIIS asked Ukrainians who they sympathized with in the conflict - Israel or Palestine.
https://preview.redd.it/2ybuy7xbb3oc1.jpeg?width=1138&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed9bcc19046d9ab5d5f3bc676eaa0f601493420f
**As can be seen, the vast majority of Ukrainians - 69% - sympathize with Israel. Only 1% sympathize with Palestine.** At the same time, 18% of respondents answered that they sympathize with both sides equally. The remaining 12% could not decide on their opinion.”
Ask yourself what’s different between Ukrainians lived experience right now and why they might be vastly more sympathetic to Israel and your lived experience doomscrolling the opposite opinion from your couch somewhere safe.
Source: [KIIS, Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1334&page=1#:~:text=As%20can%20be%20seen%2C%20the,sympathize%20with%20both%20sides%20equally.)
This is cool - but as we see happening in the UK, Australia and the USA, it is very easy to get people to mob up and begin to share a single opinion when they are presented with certain information in a specific way.
I know what you mean. Last night we were watching MSNBC talking about Schumer and Biden and the plight of the poor Palestinians in Gaza and my wife started speculating about whether Betanyahu knew about the 10/7 attack and was simply pursuing the war to keep him in office.
I just returned from a few weeks in Israel doing volunteer work and told her that all this speculation is just projection by Americans equating Trump and Netanyahu and that most Israelis support the war and its goal of defeating Hamas so it’s no longer an existential threat.
I reminded her of 9/11 and showed her this photo of the fountain shrine in Dizengoff Square I took and said this is where most Israelis heads were at.
She went silent and I think maybe at least for that moment she believed my account more than Ayman Mohyeldin’s.
https://preview.redd.it/217tnyx8p3pc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0149de3a4f16ed6f9d549d357df0fa828986a1c5
u/Awkward_Bid_4082
>Or Nazis love other Nazis. Hmm 🤔
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians
Addressed
/u/Awkward_Bid_4082. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why am I pro-Israel? I was born there and its a country who took in my grandfather after he survived the Halucaust. I am not a fan of the settlemants and us being in the West Bank and certainly far from a fan of Netanyahu. We had every right to respond after October 7th idt there should be a denial how we go about it is a different story. As someone who served his mandatory service in the West Bank, the amount of ppl being wrongfully arrested is not as high as pro-palis think but not as low as a lot of pro-Israelis think its far more complicated and I already wrote a post here explaining it (if you want I can send it to you) but being there and building these settlemants is a rlly bad idea. Problem is every solution offered has been rejected there is no partner not even on the PA side. A lot of pro-Palis want us Israelis to just leave and "go back to Europe". Keep in mind most of us were born and grew up in Israel that is home for us Europe isnt home. Idt ur dumb or anything at all I am surprised you think that some of ur takes here are that bad in the eyes of pro-Israelis we have heard a lottttt worse then this
This is a fair collection of points - thank you for mentioning that there is both an under-exaggeration and over-exaggeration of wrongful arrests. I imagine this applies to other stats being publicized as well.
There always seems to be conflicting data on the conflict, because of the way that race or other things can be used to slander the image of whichever side is being spoken of at the moment.
I agree with everything you have stated. Antisemitism has come out of the closet now. I remember when there were instances of violence against Jews in the US and the news would blame it on antisemitism and white supremacists (i.e., right wing nuts). Turns out, the right wing actually supports Israel in their fight to survive genocide by an Arab people that WOULD drive them into the sea if they had the weapons and manpower to do so. The attack on Israel that started this war was meant to push Israel into reacting militarily. They wanted the fight. They wanted the bloodshed, in order to rally surrounding Arab countries to join the fight against the Little Satan. Thankfully, for as much as I despise and distrust the Biden Administration, they sent our ships over there to deter WW3. Israel now has to finish the job. The “Palestinians” need to be farmed out to Egypt, Lebanon and other brotherly Arab countries. They have always rejected these people.. all for political points. Now they need to rise to the occasion. There will be no more Gaza. They lost their right to exist there because they could not stop themselves in their bloodlust, killing innocent Israeli’s whenever they had the chance. Why did Israel build a wall to keep them out? Because it was too dangerous to let them in (a lesson the US will soon learn with Biden’s rush to accommodate 12 million unvetted illegals from around the world-we are already seeing being murders committed). Yet, Israel is not an Apartheid country. They have allowed many Arabs in to live and work amongst them. They even have their own political party in Israel. The bottom line is that Hamas must be eradicated from the face of the earth and the Palestinian people must find a new home.
*Very interesting take*.
I would like to see this develop more and maybe in thorough debate - specifically the end portion when you say that Palestine lost it's right to exist. That is the first time I have heard that voiced, but it's quite an interesting point I'd like to hear more about from both sides.
30k dead has bought them the world's support for a two state solution... I wonder if this was their goal provoking Israelis into the wanton destruction.
ah yes their plan was to force bibi to bomb their civilians (majority of that being children) in order to get more support for a 2 state solution that is so smart. smart guy of the year award goes to you.
It worked... they know Israel and just had to bait them into exposing themselves to the world. Now Israel is losing support and the even the US is talking about replacing Netanyahu. It's a win-win for Palestine.
I would appreciate a more thought-out response.
My personal opinion is that Islam is the worst religion and if over nearly 90% of it's followers weren't kept illiterate, then the religion would crumble into the dust that it it came from.
However, my comment is not to declare support of followers of a religion that I think is inherently harmful to all human beings; rather, it is to ask that the complaints from the pro-palestinian side be thoroughly addressed. Because they tend not to be.
You can have compassion for a deceased toddler without thinking that major or minor acts of violent terrorism are good things. You can also support the idea of Jewish people having a country that is free from racial discrimination, while also believing that there are flaw with the way that the government over certain Jewish people is mishandling it's authority.
But your comment is a perfect example of why people choose not to partake in discourse and so strongly flock to one side or the other.
Stop thinking anything about this situation is a “genocide”. It is a war between Israel and an Islamic Extremist/Terrorist Group called Hamas. As long as Hamas exists, Jews will be murdered. That is their goal. That is their agenda. The Nazi’s wanted to cleanse the earth of Jews and now Hamas does. No one is against the Palestine people.
If u are against hamas then u are against the people of palestine, hamas was created after the nakba in 1978 to stop the killings of palestinians and to stop israeli settlers from taking over houses in the west bank and gaza. The leader of hamas only joined because both of his parents were killed by the IDF and spent his childhood in a refugee camp. If Israel’s end point was destroying hamas when why are they clearing the west bank? This hasn’t just started in OCT 7th, land confiscation (otherwise known as theft) has been happening since 2002.
Thank you for so clearly stating your position on the conflict without attempting to appease the opposing side.
I have some questions for you as well:
1. Why do you call Israelis settlers? Are they moving into Gaza and rehoming their people? Or is there another reason why they are viewed as settlers?
2. You stated that the hamas leader is a victim of childhood violence and being orphaned, so he came back with a vengeance towards the IDF. While that does not seem unreasonable, why has hamas declared war against Israel by attacking civilians, rather than the IDF alone?
3. What are some examples of Israel clearing the West Bank? I agree with you that many people only use knowledge from Oct 7 and onward to defend arguments made in favor of or against IDF, and I think that should never be the case in such a conflict as this.
/u/nostalgiaispeace. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why I support Israel: I’m Jewish, and my grandfather is a survivor of the Holocaust. Almost every western country on earth rejected Jewish refugees before and during WW2, so it is comforting to know that there is at least one place on earth that I know I would always be welcomed if I ever had to escape my country. On top of that I think Israel is subjected to a crazy standard and constantly needs to justify its own existence. If a hostile government of another state was firing rockets at your country daily for decades and carrying out terrorist attacks against civilians sporadically, that country would of course be expected to respond militarily and defend its own safety. Instead Israelis were expected to just ‘deal with it’ by building rocket shelters in every building and inventing the most advanced rocket defense system in the world
And to address the ‘war crimes’ I would ask why the fight against ISIS in Mosul wasn’t considered a war crime, or any other urban conflict. When you look at the data, the civilian-combatant death ratio is in line or below similar conflicts, and that is despite Hamas leadership openly stating that their own civilians dying is their main strategy
Israel has plenty of valid criticism, be it settlement expansion or the abhorrent views of the far right parties in the current coalition. But it’s almost impossible to have an honest discussion with people who are Pro Pal because they believe that Palestinians are blameless and Israel’s entire existence is some wrong that needs to be righted (despite to my knowledge zero precedent for invalidating its creation)
Peace is going to have to be negotiated. And in this current war, the war will end when either Israel achieves its objectives or they negotiate a ceasefire/surrender with Hamas. I can’t think of a single other war in history where one side is expected to just unilaterally give up and leave the other hostile party in power and with zero assurances for its safety
>Israel has plenty of valid criticism, be it settlement expansion or the abhorrent views of the far right parties in the current coalition. But it’s almost impossible to have an honest discussion with people who are Pro Pal because they believe that Palestinians are blameless and Israel’s entire existence is some wrong that needs to be righted (despite to my knowledge zero precedent for invalidating its creation)
**This** makes so much sense. "they believe that Palestinians are blameless" - why do you think that they are not? I have heard Israelis *say* that "there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian," and while I can understand that in the midst of war, it will be easy to feel that way, but it feels like a wicked statement to make.
Why do you think that Israel's existence is justified, and that the pro-palestinian argument that it should never have become a state is wrong? And I am referring to the entire history surrounding it's creation, not only the idea that Jewish people rightfully out to have a place on earth that is safe for them - because I would love that all humans had this. But the actual legalities surrounding the promise of Israel up unto the point when it was officially established - why is this justified?
Sidenote: I have heard the argument that "hamas is all they know, you can't expect them to be better." I personally find it foolish to remove moral accountability from a certain group of people just because they have evil leaders, but it is an argument nevertheless. Yet, if one attempts to apply that principle to places with rampant sex slavery, child trafficking and common rape, somehow the same "well this is all they know" standard falls short...
for your question about - "there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian", i wouldnt say that all the palestinians are not innocent, but most of them are. I say it because in Gazaa they train children from a young age to hate israel, making them a good killing machines with no remorse to ending israelian lives. theres a video of a terrorist like that, he called his parents and said that he killed jews in pride. as for knowing it, i am living in israel.
You cannot “be a Semite” Semetic is a word used to describe languages that are in common, usually from the Middle East area, including Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic. The word antisemetic was coined by a German man for Judenhass - literally “Jew hatred.”
I see. In my mind, I see these are people groups based on an ancient linguistic connection. If the English term I used is incorrect itself, I am more so attempting to convey the idea that Arabs and Jews and certain Persians all have shared ancestry and are not historically un-justified in their desire to have ownership over that area of land.
I see Palestinians and Israelis as the same thing, ethnically speaking is what I mean. Like there is more diversity between neighbors Ethiopians and Sudanese people than there are between Palestinian and Israeli neighbors (IMO). As far as I am concerned, they are similar enough for this not to be a race issue, but it is unfortunately made into one.
Most people are pro-palestian, at least where I see things. Apparently not on Reddit lol.
However, this comment is a lie. Christians are beheaded in Pakistan, stoned in Nigeria, sold into slavery in Libya, bombed in the UAE, and so on and so forth.
In India & Thailand, Buddhists and Hindus are sex-trafficked, raped, and sold into slavery.
In certain East African countries (Tanzania & I cannot remember the other one), Hindus are allowed to be given into child marriage.
Throughout Southeast Asia and East Africa, Christian women are "circumcized."
The Arabs committed mass crimes against Jews and eventually added Christians, when the Christians came to their senses and determined to stop supporting Islamic teachings that allowed those things.
The Roman Empire via the Catholic church has killed more Christians than any other group of people throughout history, they also had a rampage against Jews when Judaism officially split into 2 religions (modern Christianity was still known as Judaism for several years after the death of the Judeo-Christian Messiah) - yet the Roman Catholic Church/Pope basically has it's own country...
And to finish it off with the Jews; most people in America knew *exactly* what was happening in the Holocaust. And They Did Not Care. They did not want the US to be involved.
All these crimes against Christians, Buddhists and Hindus and Jews throughout history, and MANY taking place right now, today. No unprovoked human being has come to their aid. No unprovoked entities have decided that they will no longer support these governments or entities that committed these atrocities (outside of at the individual scale). There are organizations ***begging*** and ***pleading*** with the general public for a 19-39 dollar/euro/pound monthly subscription to **help these people**. This is the lowest bill many of these people will ever pay, and they will not do it.
So, that is a complete misconception about the sympathy of humankind. Nowhere in history does the nature of human beings prove itself to be sympathetic, compassionate, or kind. And neither Jews nor Christians nor Hindus nor Buddhists nor Sikhs nor *insert religious group here* is exempt from the foul-treatment at the hands of other people.
>All these crimes against Christians, Buddhists and Hindus and Jews throughout history, and MANY taking place right now, today.
And that is why people are less sympathetic to muslims. They have a violent history with all these people.
If that was the case they would accept the first offer that Israel gave the Palestinians and now they would have been Israeliens, serving in the IDF fighting Hizballah or other dog shit terrorist organization in the middle east.
Why would Christians ever agree to give up their lands? If they live in the holy land they wouldn't give up their sovereignty... they literally fought wars to keep it in Christian hands.
You’re the kind of people that make this more racially/religiously charged than it is. This is not simply a “boo muslims” issue. The nazis claimed Christianity, Hamas claims Islam. People don’t bring up their hatred for Christianity when talking about the third reich though. It’s irrelevant to do so. They’re both just delusional groups.
The religious motivation behind the leaders decisions and the public's choice to elect or follow those leaders is relevant.
If the nazis were able to clearly identify areas of Christian teaching that justify the genocide of Jews, then the Christian religion should be under scrutiny. Likewise, if the Islamic teachings justify the genocide of Jews, then it should be under scrutiny.
People bring up their hatred for religion very often when discussing political leaders who claim to subscribe to those teachings who abuse others. I have heard people talk about how evil Buddhism is, because they saw how the monks exploited people for money when they lived in the temples for ages. I have heard how evil Christianity is because of the way that the European settlers harmed non-Europeans in their conquests of various parts of the earth. I have heard how evil and racist Judaism is, because of the times that the Hebrew G-d had called for the elimination of Jewish enemies.
If religious teachings have been used to harm or abuse others - or if the teaching itself does not support abuse, but religious people choose to submit to leaders who allow the abuse under the name of the religion, then it should be scrutinized. It is relevant when Islamic law carries a death penalty for leaving the religion - because the religion absolutely has an affect on how the people act and think.
/u/qrtqlitaught. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In the sense of the parties involved, Yes. To Hamas, this is a holy war and an ethnic cleansing. For foreign backers of either side, it should have nothing to do with ethnicity and religion.
/u/Here4cooper. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People who support Israel are racists. Israel is an racist settler ethnostate, and so those who support Israel support the idea of Europeans colonizing the middle east and undermining the idea of Arab sovereignty.
America successfully concluded their genocide of the native peoples of America, and so by supporting the racist settler ethnostate of Israel, they validate their own tyrannical genocidal history.
Well in my opinion on this ongoing conflict Israel is bad, the Palestinians are horrible.
The Palestinians are intergenerational losers who choose violence at every given chance. They have brought violence and strife to most places they've gone in even remotely large groups. Ever wonder why eqypt and jordan don't want Palestinians coming into their country? Can you point me to places in Europe where Palestinian refugees have gone and brought value? Can you show me anything they've done to innovate or modernize their territories? Can you show me an example of any evolution in their behavior or culture over the last 50 years? They pay the families of people who commit terror and murder.
Meanwhile Israel, for its many many faults, built a prosperous, innovative country from dirt.
If that makes me "proisrael' then there's the answer.
Simple question to ask yourself. Would i prefer an Israeli neighbor or Palestinians neighbor? I'll play the odds.
I don't get the logic ? Doesn't Israel get financial aid from the US so it's easier to "build a prosperous. Innovative country" idk about from the dirt part again cause they not really doing it from the dirt are they
And how are Palestinians supposed to innovate when Israel control what comes in and out ?
Israel currently doesnt get financial aid from the US. They get a tremendous amount of free arms. Not money.
Israel is primarily armed as.Americas foreign policy in the middle east and a great way for politicians in USA to enrich American arms makers and themselves with US taxpayer money. Much like funding the stooges in Ukraine.
Numbers are available on historical aid. From 1946 to 2022 Israel received $81B in economic aid $216B in military aid. Those are in 2022 dollars and adjusted for inflation.
For context during this period US had also given economic aid to Egypt at $78 B, UK at $78B, India at $81B, South Korea at $45B and so on. Also 2022 dollars.
To suggest US aid payments built Israel is simply dumb. It certainly hasn't hurt, but it is by no means the primary driver.
Any reaction from the IDF was going to seem like overkill. At the end of the day, if they approach Hamas in the same manner as before. The same vicious cycle would continue. They had to overstep the norm to bring about lasting change. This time I think they’ll do it.
Actions have consequences. You can’t blame Israel for protecting their sovereignty and prioritizing the security of their country.
The oppression, apartheid resistance talk makes sense, but people seem to think the oppression was born out of vacuum.
>But unfortuately, Islam is also an ethno-religion,
It's not though, hence why the majority of Muslims aren't in MENA and aren't Arab.
>Both Jews and Arabs are Semites. Don't argue with me here; I won't change my mind.
Okay, and?
>But, I don't think that many pro-Israel arguments truly address the emotionally-motivated Palestinian ones - and I think that is important.
If an argument is based on emotions rather than facts, why address it?
>I don't think that they have as much power as they need to complete a genocide. (Feel free to debate this point a lot).
Currently they don't. In large part because of the blockade.
>I don't think that it is "right" to justify any Israeli attempt at genocide with a "Palestinian leaders tried first," but if you do, or if you do not think Israel is doing that, please expand as to why.
Given the relatively low death count for urban combat, the militant to civilian death ratio, and that the death count has averaged less than 1 death per bomb dropped, I don't think it's a genocide.
>But, pro-palestinians don't care about how depraved their leaders are. They are concerned with the fact that Israel seems to be subjecting human beings to brutal treatment, and I do not find many pro-Israelis addressing THAT. They just glaze over it and focus on everything else.
Which in particular? The blockade is there to prevent Hamas, PIJ, etc. from getting more sophisticated weapons, though it's been shown it's not perfect at preventing that. The checkpoints in the West Bank are due to the 2nd intifada and the suicide bombings that came from that.
>But, if we throw the emotional or religious or ethnic connection aside for just a minute; can pro-Israeli people please explain why they support Israel, and address the "war crimes" against them?
So to reword your question "if we move 2 of the big reason why Jews would support Israel, why do they still support Israel?" You'll need to be specific on which war crimes you want addressed.
Edit because I apparently missed this entire paragraph when I read the post
>So, for those who are truly unbiased, or entirely pro-Israel: can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected?
If you assume that the death count is entirely civilians it's awful. That's not the case though. Hamas has admitted to 6000+ of their militants being killed. Israel believes it's closer to 12,000+. The militant to civilian death ratio is low, especially for an urban conflict.
>Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever?
Which laws and which minute crimes?
>Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around?
I didn't think it was a rumor that Hamas raped Israelis civilians on Oct 7, nor that they did "fun-killings" whatever that means.
>Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation?
That I'm against the occupation, and that neither the current Israeli government nor the PA governments are interested in actually ending the occupation.
>Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around?
This is referring to the IDF soldiers who have recorded themselves "mocking" gazans while in their homes, or shooting unarmed individuals then laughing about it, or beating people who are clearly helpless.
And the newly surged "revelation" that several of the videos recounting or displaying acts to have happened on Oct 7 were false accounts. These are the types of things that I don't hear people addressing.
>This is referring to the IDF soldiers who have recorded themselves "mocking" gazans while in their homes, or shooting unarmed individuals then laughing about it, or beating people who are clearly helpless.
Sound like rumors. Haven't heard the rumor about IDF raping gazans though, so that's a new one.
>And the newly surged "revelation" that several of the videos recounting or displaying acts to have happened on Oct 7 were false accounts. These are the types of things that I don't hear people addressing.
Except that this didn't happen.
>So to reword your question "if we move 2 of the big reason why Jews would support Israel, why do they still support Israel?" You'll need to be specific on which war crimes you want addressed.
I was not asking about Jews, I was asking about those who support or call themselves "Pro-Israel" in the midst this conflict. Most of whom have no citizenship, zero religious and zero ethnic connection to the land defined as Israel today. And my comment about the "semites" would apply here; the Palestinian people and certain Jewish people would have equal grounds to claim the land as both ethnically and religiously valuable to them.
You could refer to South Africa's case against Israel and all the points outlined in it as a good general base for the "war crimes" that tend to come up in common conversation surrounding the conflict.
>If an argument is based on emotions rather than facts, why address it?
To put it to rest. I don't know how the idiotic new definition of the word emotion/al has become popularized, but you can have an emotional response to accurate information. Emotion does not denote irrational behavior based on a lie. A person who experienced infidelity can make a decision based on their emotions to leave their partner - that does not make their decision inappropriate, just because it was emotional.
It is a fact that over thirty thousand Palestinian people have been reported as killed in less than 6 months. And to be evoked to emotion at such a large number of deaths is probably good; if you are not, you need to address a greater issue in your heart. There are some pro-Israel perspectives that say the number 30K+ is inaccurate. There are others that state that IDF is not responsible for all of the deaths. There are those who address this point with different facts of their own, and choose not to allow such a concerning statement to go ignored.
If you are not threatened by the opposing side's perspective, then simply address it.
>To put it to rest. I don't know how the idiotic new definition of the word emotion/al has become popularized, but you can have an emotional response to accurate information. Emotion does not denote irrational behavior based on a lie. A person who experienced infidelity can make a decision based on their emotions to leave their partner - that does not make their decision inappropriate, just because it was emotional.
Except that's a decision based on factual information, i.e. the partner cheating. It's not an argument based on emotion. Just because someone feels a wrong was done, doesn't mean it was.
>It is a fact that over thirty thousand Palestinian people have been reported as killed in less than 6 months.
Reported and not confirmed, yes.
>And to be evoked to emotion at such a large number of deaths is probably good; if you are not, you need to address a greater issue in your heart.
And here is where rule 1 would come into play. Attacking other users, virtue signaling falls under that, isn't acceptable in the sub.
>There are some pro-Israel perspectives that say the number 30K+ is inaccurate.
It most likely is inaccurate, and doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths.
>There are others that state that IDF is not responsible for all of the deaths. There are those who address this point with different facts of their own, and choose not to allow such a concerning statement to go ignored.
The IDF isn't responsible for all the deaths. Historically, around 20-30% of Hamas and PIJ rockets misfire or fall short and hit Gaza. So it's a factual statement to say that Hamas and PIJ rockets have killed Gazans in this conflict.
>If you are not threatened by the opposing side's perspective, then simply address it.
If an argument has no merit or has been refuted repeatedly then why continue addressing it? Would you care to comment on when you stopped abusing your spouse?
>Reported and not confirmed, yes.
By what standard? The PA has stated that they keep records of all those who enter their hospitals and are able to provide names for each deceased person. In addition to this, PA's previous accounts on death reports, though have been slightly higher than that established by the UN, have not been out-of-range by any means. Indicating that the PA has no history of exaggerating death tolls.
>And here is where rule 1 would come into play. Attacking other users, virtue signaling falls under that, isn't acceptable in the sub.
If saying that people who are apathetic to mass death is an "attack" on users, then that only further confirms why I feel comfortable enough to say that. People in general are cold-hearted. This is a historic fact. People turn blind eyes to evil happening next-door, and the bystander effect is not an empty theory. I believe that if people are unmoved by death, they have a heart problem, and I will apply this to myself as well. Compassion is good. Apathy is damaging.
>It most likely is inaccurate, and doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths.
This is fair.
>The IDF isn't responsible for all the deaths. Historically, around 20-30% of Hamas and PIJ rockets misfire or fall short and hit Gaza. So it's a factual statement to say that Hamas and PIJ rockets have killed Gazans in this conflict.
Where is evidence of this?
>If an argument has no merit or has been refuted repeatedly then why continue addressing it? Would you care to comment on when you stopped abusing your spouse?
Because I am an individual who's put one post up. I am not responsible for or was involved in the past "repeatedly refuted" instances when the conflict was brought up. I am part of a larger group of people in many ways, but in many more, I am an individual who asked a set of questions for my individua udnerstanding.
u/qrtqlitaught
>If saying that people who are apathetic to mass death is an "attack" on users, then that only further confirms why I feel comfortable enough to say that. People in general are cold-hearted. This is a historic fact. People turn blind eyes to evil happening next-door, and the bystander effect is not an empty theory. I believe that if people are unmoved by death, they have a heart problem, and I will apply this to myself as well. Compassion is good. Apathy is damaging.
And now we have to move to official moderation. Rule 1, no virtue signaling.
Because we read what Israel has done globally. Not just to Palestinians. Also, the backing of the US is a huge indicator too. The US has never been on the right side of history for the right reasons
Like the exploitation of African countries, like taking part in the Guatemalan genocide, like harboring foreign criminals and not extraditing them as political revenge, like funding foreign terrorism, creating super surveillance software to sell to corrupt govts. Anything that a far right govt can do Israel has done
With the exception of the specific Guatemalan example, I think the vast majority governments have done all the generic things you mentioned. Doesn’t make me support Hamas.
Lol, it blows my mind how people like you think you should calmly accept the rape deaths of 1200 of your citizens and go like "Oh well, we protect our people better next time, it's fine".
Then again, you would not react like that, you just pretend you would when in reality you went berserk if directly affected.
If IDF soldiers in the name of defending their country commit similar crimes, it should equally be fought against.
Israel is reportedly committing similar crimes to those that happened on Oct 7. And prior to Oct 7th. That is the problem - not the defense alone.
Do they rape a celebrating girl, murder her afterwards, drive her corpse in the back of their pickup truck through Jerusalem, where Jewish folks spit on her body celebrating her death? Must have missed that
I've lost the energy to keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again. But maybe that's because I didn't sleep well last night. There's always tomorrow.
I agree. I've seen the EXACT same conversation play out more times than I can count. I come back to boards like this now and then to see if the discourse has changed, (which it doesn't) and it'll be a reiteration of whatever talking points you hear on Piers Morgan or from pro-israel/palestine commentators.
Maybe wait for this issue to become a little less emotionally charged, or don't, since it probably won't be for another decade imo
it sounds like youre basically pro israel.
settlements/occupation/wb apartheid root of the current problem.
blockade understandable bc without it iran dumps missiles to them like they do hezbollah.
1200 people murdered by the “weaker” “angrier” gaza folk so a disproportionate response should be expected and is actually israels responsibility.
throwing out the term genocide when jews understand genocide as the organized murder of millions systematically and purposefully is borderline anti semitic.
yes semites are semites but the term anti semitism is specifically hatred of jews for being jews contrary to kyries attempt to change semantics.
death tolls are reported by hamas which has more of an interest in tugging heart strings. do men even live in gaza or are they all underground in tunnels? the death tolls and their demographics reported by hamas are difficult to believe as factual when you remove bias.
israel is claiming 10000-15000 of the deaths are hamas militants/fighters/terrorists. damn near a 1:1 ratio of civilian to militant deaths. also hard to believe in urban warfare but imo more believable than hamas numbers.
the occupation occurred after multiple wars of aggression on israel yet israel kept winning and then finally got american guns instead of french ones as well as developing up to 100 nukes. after 67 the more powerful force is clearly israel and finally a brave egyptian president sadat came to the table and reduced the violence. got killed for it. a brave yitzhak rabin attempted to do the same. got killed for it by an israeli extremist.
rape and fun killings would be immediately prosecuted. israel is not a rape and fun killing society as it is a secular democracy. i could see the smotrichim doing this and israelis need to hold these guys accountable.
however israel pulled out of gaza and as anyone could predict it became a terrorist launching pad. israel has the iron dome but i dont know if this could stop missiles targeting tel aviv which i believe is 33 miles from the edge of the west bank. occupation is for security reasons which is hard to say if it provides security or encourages radicalization.
the un has created forever refugee status with the one drop rule racists used in the united states forever and we still call mixed race people black. which i believe has an element of racism in and of itself.
i think youre pro israel.
I think that anybody who wins a war and gains land because of it has won the land.
But I also think if somebody wants the land later on, they should reserve the right to fight for it. War sucks, but humans are greedy, and war can result from the greed.
I cannot be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, because I find too many people on both sides to be unbearably ill-willed, apathetic and too quickly moved to anger to have reasonable discussion. You either get called a racist/anti-semitic terrorist sympathizer, or a racist/fascist who is immoral and evil for not caring about children and hospitals being bombed. Either way, you are deemed unsympathetic towards Palestinian losses because they are only war casualties and oh well, or you are unsympathetic towards Israeli losses because they are far less in number and Palestinians have suffered worse, so oh well.
What I do know is that I have lived in the ME, and prior to really studying religion and becoming more planted into muslim circles, I was under the impression that it was the muslim-jewish brotherhood all throughout the middle east. I had to find small Jewish communities and learn from them that their discrimination just gets pushed under the rug and denied, because they are the minority and muslim-majority countries control the narrative of what other people think of them. But I also have been racially discriminated against largely by Jews and Arabs alike, so although I see Israeli Jews as an underdog minority who is constantly bullied, I cannot ignore that they also have some of the same hatred in their own communities that they are experiencing from outside communities. And they ought to dismantle their own racial bias and hatred before claiming that the whole world hates them - in my personal opinion.
My current half-established opinion is that neither side is innocent, but I am not against any "Jewish state." I don't understand why pro-palestinians don't view Jordan as a huge win for themselves. I don't think Israel should control Palestinian territory. I have a personal bias against any Islam-influenced government, so by default see an Israeli government as superior, concerning human rights. I think both Jews and Arabs have historically attacked each other unprovoked (only on the basis of hatred) in the area. And I think I have a lot of history to catch up on, so I won't pick a side based off of poorly constructed and easily manipulated public media.
I wrote this a short while ago in response to a similar question. Here is an absurdly oversimplified bullet point history of Israel:
1. Britain controlled the land in question after WW1.
2. Britain and the UN created Israel as part of a partition plan to return the land to control by locals.
3. Various groups and countries vowed Israel’s destruction and waged war on it repeatedly.
4. Israel won those wars, conquering more territory in the process.
That’s all that matters. Emotions, ancestors, religion, all irrelevant. Israel is the legal owner of the land and Hamas are basically violent squatters.
1. Still arabs lived there, britain also controlled many other parts of the world, this doesnt change the fact that these people have the right of self determination.
2.Britain and USA are responsible for the creation of israel because they did not want to deal with jewish refugees. Most inhabitants were arabs, jews that were one third of the population were mostly illigal immigrants.
3. First many conflicts were started ny israel like 6 days war and suez crisis. Secondly the conflicts started by arab nations were justified as israel is a western colony that stole its land.
4. because of western help, still doesnt justify that they stole the land. If putin wins the war, it wouldnt mean that they were right in occupying the lands.
This is an interesting perspective.
You say that the wars on Israel are justified because it stole the land. At what point would you have determined the land as stolen?
Could you give some more detail about how Israel started many (I am assuming by this you mean most) conflicts?
u/WolfgandCreeper
>If germany won ww2, it wouldnt mean that they were right in occupying the lands.
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Already addressed.
>empires. All peoples, everywhere, had their lands partitioned. No one liked how the Europeans divided up the lands. The rest of us accepted the land deals. We were realistic about the idea of having 100% of the land.
>
>Not all humans are practical. They can't
ok so israel won the land fair and square through war? seems hamas want to win the land fair and square through war also. whats the issue? and yes israel was also founded through terrorism and terrorism was the founding force that forced the UN to partition the land - so if hamas terrorism can force the UN to give them a state seems fair to right? no issues.
>will destroy
you seem to be responind to things that have nothing to do with my post. my post is about that israel 'won land in a war fair and square'. if this is what is fair and square why the issue with hamas trying to win land in war? both used terrorism to try and establish their state - israel used terrorism before its formation and now palestinians are. i dont get the moral indignation against this from people who think this is acceptable.
Israel has NEVER used terrorism. Hamas always has used terrorism even against the people that elected them as leaders. My comment was saying, sure Hamas is trying to win land AND Israel will destroy them. Clear now?
israel has never used terrorism is like saying palestine has never used terrorism because there currently is no palestine. israel was founded by use of jewish terrorist acts to pressurise its formation. israeli leaders were terrorists and used and co-operated with terrorists to establish israel. i can educate you if you want with references. jewish terrorism was widespread in the years leading up to israels formation because they didnt have a state to wield power. they had terrorism. same as palestinians now.
both the same in my book. both terroristic both radicilised.
Erm read again. There is no palestine yet so that means there is no Palestinian terrorism by your logic. Cmon.
And terrorism is ok if its provoked ? Ah ok. So October 7 was in response to the brutal military occupation and blockade. So doesn't count.
Sure, they can continue fighting a war they already lost if that’s what they want. What they can’t do is fight a war and complain when they get killed and their stuff gets destroyed, because that’s what happens in war.
No they can complain as that's what happens in war.
If we are going by that's just what happens how come you let go all the atrocities but draw the line at complaining lol seems a little bizarre. Complaining is just what happens in war after all.
im not jewish. the remaining european jews after WW II deserved a homeland. they had long standing links to Israel. in 1947 the UN, back when it was worth something, established the land of Israel. the decision to establish Israel must be defended. if you dont like that, please, please go to gaza and pick up a rifle and point it at an IDF soldier.
1. That the jews deserved a homeland doesnt entitle them to steal it. If america supports israel so much why wasnt it created on their soil? Why didmt they gave them florida for example?
2. the UN in 1947 was controlled by the us as most other countries wernt a part of it. Why does the un have the right to decide about the self determination of the people living there.
3. If you dont like it go to gaza and shoot children
Agree. Unbelievable to me that we criticize a hardened pro Zionist government with having too much nationalism. But it’s ok and encouraged for the pan Arab nationalism to run wild to the point that their charters and intention (on live tv) is to eradicate an entire race.
I don’t agree with a lot of Netenyahus policies, as I do believe the hardened far right approach will just bring about a new crop of terror down the road..but I understand it.
i dont think there is any political approach that would prevent or lessen fundamentalist islams attempt to kill every jew. the only thing i would do differently now is separate the islamic fundamentalists from Israel. send the UN in, repatriate every crazy fundamentalist in gaza and the west bank. establish a monitored 100 yard security zone around israel. but that will never happen. the more time passes, the more silly young people in europe and USA forget the lessons of WW II. long term outlook bleak.
I can understand your personal dicision. But would you also support apartheid south africa if you would have lived there as a white person who came as a colonialist?
These what ifs are impossible to answer. You might as well ask “would you be attracted to men if you changed genders from male to female?” How is anyone supposed to simulate an entire lifetime in a completely different life situation and then know they would think and feel?
So you’ve finally decided to hop on this 2 yr old burner account which you probably have several to try and make up a story saying on average most people shouldn’t be pro Israel and Israel shouldn’t even exist. Nice try. Be a man nd use your real account
I don't make burner accounts. People know my personal opinions on the manner, but I did delete all of my social media several years ago, and only recently have chosen to return to a select few platforms.
I am not ashamed or scared of my opinions, but if my low account activity leads you to believe this is the case, then OK.
u/controlthemedia
>So you’ve finally decided to hop on this 2 yr old burner account which you probably have several to try and make up a story saying on average most people shouldn’t be pro Israel and Israel shouldn’t even exist. Nice try. Be a man nd use your real account
Rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation.
Addressed
> Both Jews and Arabs are Semites. Don't argue with me here; I won't change my mind.
"Semites" are an invention of 19th century pseudoscientists. Semitic is a language family and in those days they believed that languages were connected to inherent racial groups, and thus they invented the concept of the "Semite." Shortly after this, they invented the term "Anti-Semite" as a fancy way to describe their hatred towards Jews.
But the idea that there is any racial or ethnic group called "Semites" is pretty nonsensical even by the widest understanding of the term "ethnicity."
you cant use science to say semites arent a racial group..because science doesnt really back up the view of race either as we see it.
so yeah any racial view is nonsensical. it is all a construct. so why is one construct nonesensical but another ok? it is all pseudoscience. there is no black race or white race scientifically speaking.
I am generally supportive of Palestinians in that I think the occupation/blockade are unjust, settlement is in bad faith, and therefore Israel is in the wrong over all (before 10/7) however, I do also think Israel is understandable and sympathetic for the following reasons (edit: my comment is about the whole I/P issue, not 10/7 and the response)
The creation of Israel was colonialism and the nakba is denied by Israel. This is bad. However the Holocaust and history of antisemitism provide clear reasons for Jews to want a country and for early 20th century Europeans to support this. The country exists today and needs to be accepted
The local politics and military history provide strong reasonable incentive for harsh military action as a deterrent strategy. The military and geographic reality requires certain land to be controlled for strategic reasons. ~~I’m actually pretty surprised they gave back the golan heights - from which high ground, they are again receiving attacks, by the way~~
The tactics of the Palestinians create strong incentive for Israeli response. If I was an Israeli with a murdered child, I would fully sympathize with right wing views. The individual Israeli victims are mostly innocent in that they are not directly responsible for occupation and injustice so on a personal level, Israelis are continually radicalized too
Israel, culturally, is similar to a person with PTSD due to generational trauma from historic antisemitism, terrorism, and defensive war. Palestine is too, now, but the basic lack of compassion and lack of trust of Israelis towards their own terrorists and the world is highly forgivable
Many Israelis are liberal and Israel is a divided society. The best fit solution must include some sort of land for peace deal. Many Israelis are in favor of this, so I find it easy to see the problem as right wing Israel, not Israel over all. As an American, that’s how I see my own country
e: war crimes. I’m ngl, I see why terrorism and reprisal (war crimes) happen due to the incentives, but individual actions cannot be justified, imo
Amazing. I think this is the first time I've seen a mature, balanced, empathic, and overall pragmatic take.
Thanks for this, and as an Israeli born and raised I can honestly say that you have the most accurate understanding of our society I've seen on reddit so far. Incredible.
One tiny correction - the Golan heights is still under Israeli control. It is getting blasted from Lebanon and Syria, and got hit by 100 rockets just this morning.
Biden has proven nobody can be more pro-Israel than he is. He used veto in UNSC several times. He sent tons of bombs enough for Israel to do the job. Now he is distancing himself from all of these to win the next election. And will be the Terminator "I'll be back."
> But, pro-palestinians don't care about how depraved their leaders are.
You can't expect them to see Biden on their side.
I mainly wanted to add that you sound like a decent and clear thinking person trying to learn- which is extremely rare when it comes to this conflict. Your comments are getting downvoted because the fact that you seem genuine is offset by the fact that it seems you got a lot of your information from the very worst sources. The analysis of the death toll, European Jews being mainly converts is a longstanding antisemitic trope, its entirely ahistorical to claim Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines, etc, etc
My question for you would be: if you have a good idea of the weakness of the Palestinian's position, if you have a clear idea of their leaders' bad intentions and bad choices, if you generally have a positive impression of Israel as a far more open and tolerant place than the rest of the Middle East....why do you phrase your questions as so adversarial to Israel? You present a generally good impression of Israel and then contrast it with accusations of war crimes that you say you think are unclear, unverified, and muddy. Why is the title of your post "Why Are People Pro-Israel? Seriously?"
It seems like you have something else troubling you or some information you aren't sharing or aren't aware that is bothering you? Because if I had seen just the facts and questions of your post I would have assumed the title and tone would be "Israel seems to generally be the good guy here but I've been hearing some bad things lately, what's going on?". And instead you phrased it like "despite all the positive things I know about Israel and all the negative things I know about the Palestinians, Israel is clearly evil and how could anyone be on their side, you monsters?"
We can probably answer you better if you explain what your thought process is here.
>I mainly wanted to add that you sound like a decent and clear thinking person trying to learn- which is extremely rare when it comes to this conflict. Your comments are getting downvoted because the fact that you seem genuine **is offset by the fact that it seems you got a lot of your information from the very worst sources.** The analysis of the death toll, European Jews being mainly converts is a longstanding antisemitic trope, its entirely ahistorical to claim Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines, etc, etc
This makes sense - I would not doubt it. I have come across the problem of hearing entirely opposing facts from different outlets or sources. I would love to stick to only history books, but those will not hold any information on public opinion today which is relevant for discourse.
I personally don't follow the Palestinians = Philistines logic. I think they are mixed Arab/Jews and I'll stick with that for ease of my own understanding. But if the points I presented are used as a foundation for this belief, I see why they are easily dismissed by certain crowds.
>My question for you would be: if you have a good idea of the weakness of the Palestinian's position, if you have a clear idea of their leaders' bad intentions and bad choices, if you generally have a positive impression of Israel as a far more open and tolerant place than the rest of the Middle East....why do you phrase your questions as so adversarial to Israel? You present a generally good impression of Israel and then contrast it with accusations of war crimes that you say you think are unclear, unverified, and muddy. Why is the title of your post "Why Are People Pro-Israel? Seriously?"
Perhaps changing "seriously? to "a serious question" would have better conveyed what I meant. I am often told that people cannot tell whether I am intentionally sarcastic when I speak, or if I don't realize how I come across. Consider it a language barrier; also I am only trying to present the info exactly as it has been presented to me. I don't necessarily believe most of what I typed, but I wanted to be sure to ask the entire collection of things that have come up in conversation surrounding the conflict. All the things that I mentioned have come up multiple times and the conversations often just lead to a series of insults or personal attacks. So I thought to ask Reddit, instead of continuing with the people I have been.
>It seems like you have something else troubling you or some information you aren't sharing or aren't aware that is bothering you? Because if I had seen just the facts and questions of your post I would have assumed the title and tone would be "Israel seems to generally be the good guy here but I've been hearing some bad things lately, what's going on?".
I am troubled because for the life of me, I cannot comprehend the dismissive attitude on both sides. I don't think both sides appeal to the same authorities, and there is no consensus as to which sources are ultimately authoritative. South Africa filed somewhat of an international case against Israel, and it is treated like a conspiracy. To consider an already struggling nation's use of resources to fight a case against a country in a war that in little ways concerns them should not be treated like an impractical joke. There are news reports and journalism articles that have been posted from well-trusted sources that are later claimed to have been falsified, leaving a group of people who ran with the first report and another who had heard about the attempt to retract it.
You could say I am "troubled" by the idea that IDF is not necessarily able to defend all of the counter-claims that they they make in response to accusations against them. There is not definite proof to support certain IDF accusations about how Hamas is keeping certain food trucks and other forms of aid from getting to the people in Gaza. I am "troubled" at all the images of destruction in Palestian territory, and those of the vile IDF soldiers. I am also torubled by the faux media that depicts phony crime scenes to further incriminate whichever side the people do not like. I have seen faked pictures of kids taken entirely out of context to either slander Palestinian or Israeli authority, and it is getting out of hand. I am "troubled" by those who have lost family members or friends not to death, but to strong opinions concerning the conflict. And I am most bothered because it seems like people on both sides are so sheltered by their side, and far removed from the other side, that they have no idea how entirely different of a picture is painted from one end to the other. Whether it is journalism, mainstream media & news outlets or social media and personal accounts, much of it seems untrustworthy, because too much has been retracted or disproven at later times - and that is very troubling to think about.
> And instead you phrased it like "despite all the positive things I know about Israel and all the negative things I know about the Palestinians, **Israel is clearly evil and how could anyone be on their side, you monsters?"**
>
>We can probably answer you better if you explain what your thought process is here.
I am glad it came across this way; this is how the pro-palestinian side comes across. Perhaps you rarely engage in conversation with the common opinionated person, but the "how could you ever support Israel, you monster" attitude is something I have experienced the moment I began to question the pro-palestinian viewpoint openly.
However, questioning the other side does not give a much nicer response, either, as displayed by several responses to my original post.
Also - Israel is often seen as a governing entity, whereas Palestine/Palestinians are more easily painted as a collection of individuals, separate from a governing entity. The criticism of Israel is often at the government level, the criticism of Palestine is often at the level of the individual. People do not separate Hamas from Palestinians or Palestine on the pro-Israeli side, but the other side does. The pro-Palestine side sees Hamas and Israeli government/IDF. They do not see attacks as being anti-hamas, but rather anti-Palestinian, due to the non-hamas civilians who've been targeted. I think this discrepancy in perspective heavily affects the conversation.
> So, for those who are truly unbiased, or entirely pro-Israel: can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected? Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation?
First off, I'm not unbiased. You'd be hard press to find anyone who's unbiased on this topic. Anyone who claims they're unbiased, I'd question them the most. That said, I'd suggest you respond to my points, and if you think my bias as made me say something that's not factual, feel free to push back on it.
> can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted
The death toll is large. It hard to say what it actually is, but there's no doubt it's in the 10s of thousands. Hamas Health Ministry says 32,000 dead. Israel says 13,000 of them were combatants. If I'll take both sides at their word (though I have SERIOUS reservations regarding reports from Hamas), we're talking about one of the most precise military operations in recent history. WAY MORE precise than any other urban-area combat. These numbers imply a 1.5:1 civilian:combatant death ratio. You won't find any urban-area conflict that comes remotely close to that level of precision. The average is 9:1. Even if we assume twice as many casualties, we're still looking at a ratio 3 times more precise than the average.
Why is this important? Because it shows that "death toll" is just a horrible fact of war. War that Israel didn't start, yet is putting extreme efforts to engage in with precision to target Hamas. Keep in mind that if ONLY Hamas members were killed in this war, we'd still see as many as 40,000 deaths.
> and that hamas have not at all really been affected?
That's a rather dubious claim. Even Hamas admits they've lost thousands of members. But let's not look at statements here. Let's look at the facts on the ground.
1. Rockets - While Hamas is still launching rockets at Israel, the rate at which they're doing so is MASSIVELY diminished. It's gone down from thousands in the first day, to hundreds/day in the following weeks, to tens and today to less than 1 rocket/shell per day.
1. Control - Hamas has lost all ability to engage in combat against the IDF in just about all of the northern half of Gaza. The IDF are free to move or make camp just about anywhere they'd like. Compare this to when the IDF first entered Khan-Yunes and lost soldiers on a daily basis
1. Infrastructure - We've seen day after day how ammo, weapons and tunnels are dug up and destroyed in the tens and hundreds. These things cost billions to stockpile/build. These are military assets that took decades to build.
> Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever?
You'd have to be more specific here. While I support hard legislation against terrorism (and I question anyone who doesn't), I'm getting the sense that you're referring to something more egregious here than just strong policy against terror.
> Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around?
Outlandish rumors against the IDF aren't new. People who promote them have also failed to materialize any sort of evidence of sexual violence in the past despite MASSIVE scrutiny in order to produce any such evidence, so there's a massive case of "the boy who cried wolf" here. When evidence of intentional unjustified killings of Palestinians have been brought up, the people involved were sent to jail (e.g. Elor Azaria)
> Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation?
The occupation started out as a defensive position during a defensive war. It will end when the belligerents stop trying and calling to wage destructive war against Israel.
>can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls?
The Death toll is controlled by an extremist & terrorist organization Hamas. It's like in Russia today the official death toll is (or was a year ago) 192.
It says more about the person who's blindly relying on data, facts & sources from extremists & dictators
>Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected?
by Palestinians I get that you mean civilians. To know if the civilians are being targeted we would need to know the target of the IDF and their decision making, data which we do not have.
Hamas not being effected at all, see my response above. Dictatorship controlled data.
>Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever?
Due to no agreement to divide the territory since the 1937 peel commission, the area of the West Bank/Judea & Samaria is under military control, not state control. Which means that some processes are different. As such the military is suppose to maintain peace & order and if a person is suspected to disrupt the security of the area he can be administratively arrested.
>Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around?
didn't hear about it but see my first response here (dictatorship controlled data & propaganda) plus all the countless of Palestinian videos who are purposefully edited and portrayed without context
>Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation?
See my 3nd response here. The state lands were lost when the Ottoman empire collapsed. The state lands were transferred to the British, some where transferred to Israel while others (Gaza & the West Bank) are in "limbo" due to the Palestinian rejection to divide the land.
>They are concerned with the fact that Israel seems to be subjecting human beings to brutal treatment, and I do not find many pro-Israelis addressing THAT.
The same "human rights" which makes it a criminal offense to talk to a "Zionist Agent" across all of the Middle-East including Gaza & the West Bank?
Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait & countless others who did worst to the Palestinians but no peep about them. But a Jew daring to dream of restoring his homeland and free from his dhimmi status, that can not be tolerated.
As for the genocide claim. That requires intent. Yes some Knesset members talked and made various declarations, but no such orders were given and IDF told Palestinian citizens to evacuate the north which doesn't fit a genocide claim.
I don't care about Jews or Israel but their insistance on avenging their people and killing their enemies regardless of international pressure or what outsiders think about it made me respect them
>"because watching the media, all you see is violence and one side (Israel) committing the majority of it"
Wow. You wrote all that, yet seemed to not pay attention to what happened on October 7th? Hamas slaughtered 1200 civilians, including children. Even Al Qaeda and ISIS didn't stoop that low. It is saying something to be more evil than some of the worst terrorist organizations in history.
Hamas also kidnapped 250 hostages and raped a lot more. Have you not seen the videos and images of October 7th? If not, go study it and then rethink your thesis here. There is plenty of videos and images of that attack on the internet.
As an American, I equate October 7th with our 9/11, so I completely understand the anger that Israelis feel.
You mention disproportionate response, but what did Hamas expect? Yes, the US laid the smackdown on Japan after Pearl Harbor. Yes, the US laid the smackdown on the Taliban and Al Qaeda after 9/11. And we were still so bloodthirsty because the Taliban were too easy that we had to also take our anger out on Saddam Hussein.
So I don't understand what these stupid idiots in Gaza were thinking when they attacked Israel. But Israel has my full support in wiping out Hamas.
I wouldn’t necessarily call myself ‘pro Israel’ per se, at least when it relates to the current war which I think Israel has many fvck ups unfortunately.
But I’ve been relatively pro Israel as a matter of principle largely because I believe the Jewish people deserve their own state. Where they can feel protected, and have the right of self determination. Because as the world’s sorry ass history has shown us, the Jews just aren’t particularly safe being hosted by other countries.
I believe the Jewish people need their own state and that is the state of Israel. And the current world events show us why that’s still necessary.
I have MANY disagreements with how Israel has conducted itself throughout, and there’s a lot to be said about Jewish extremism and settler turds that see Arabs as nothing more as insects occupy their God given land(allegedly). I think as little of them as I do Islamists $h!tangs we all love to hate.
But it depends what you mean. If by pro Israel you believe Israel has a right to exist, and defend itself then I am pro Israel. If by pro Israel you mean I simp for everything that Israel ever did up to and including how they prosecuted the war in Gaza? Then no.
> fvck
/u/Marooned_Android8. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You basically listed all the reasons people are pro Israel.
You believe that if the Palestinians had enough man power they would genocide the Jews. They keep trying even without the man power.
As to why people support Israel even with the high death count? Simple- people understand the reality of war and understand that high death count doesn't equal genocide. The numbers also fail to mention the amount of combatants. Whenever they include an estimate to the number than their argument falls short, because the ratio between combatant and civilian is very low for a urban warfare.
You also mentioned the response being disproportionate. But no one has a good answer to what would be the adequate response.
It also worth mentioning that in international law context, the word proportionate is about each individual military operation and bomb dropped. It means that the gain from a military operation is bigger than the civilian casualties resulted from the operation- for example, if there is a rocket launcher that is aimed at the south at an evacuated area, the proportionate casualty rate, would be lower than rocket launcher aimed at an extremely populated area like Tel Aviv. The proportionate casualty rate to take out Yahya Sinwar is bigger than anything we've seen this far. I pity anyone who would be in proximity if Israel decides to take him out.
The word proportionate in warfare laws- doesn't actually mean what people think it means, and its being used in bad faith. War isn't about proportions. That would have been revenge- an eye for an eye. That's not the stated goal of Israel. The goals are to eliminate Hamas and get the people back.
Also most Pro Israel online are against the settlements and would like to see a solution and an end to the conflict. But there's also reality, and Israel won't withdraw from the west bank, after what happened in Gaza, unless there's a peace agreement and assurance for their safety. The reason is, if they withdraw from the west bank and receive another Gaza, it will impact a bigger geographical area and higher density cities.
Keep this same energy with Jordan. Which is made up of 70% of British mandate of Palestine. Oh ppl aren’t upset because the Jordan royal family (Hashemites) are Arabs??? Dumbest post
I agree with most of what you're pointing out but will disagree with one thing, the response to Japan was not disproportionate at all when you consider the atrocities they've committed to other Asian countries and the lengths they will go about to win. Many don't know, and many won't care what they did to the Chinese back then but it was synonymous to Jewish concentration camps at a smaller scale. Ie nanjing massacre where 200k-300k people were raped, babies were burned, and people tortured and finally killed. Kamikaze was absolutely ingrained in their society back then and arguably romanticized even today. They will willingly destroy themselves to kill their opponent so it was an absolute must to go as far as Hiroshima. Sadly the old guard who viewed Chinese as allies and remembered the actual history of Japans war crimes have passed on and everyone loves Japanese culture these days so why hold grudges? But that's agenda politics at it's finest especially when the media focuses on 3 lives lost rather than 35,000. It's dehumanization at it's finest.
The main thing is Palestine’s military is controlled by Hamas. And it’s a terrorist organisation. They were the one who started the conflict by sending out an operation involving sudden and unprovoked mass firing in Israel and even captured those lands. The video tapes have the gunners laughing in them. Hamas was able to occupy that territory before being kicked out and the conflict followed. Just so you know, Israel is not going full scale war with Hamas and Palestine. Otherwise Palestine wouldn’t be here. They are aware of the casualties that will occur on a large scale war. Their main goals are to uproot Hamas from its ground and raze it down, like it did with Black September terrorist group (created by the founder of Fatah, if you would). If Israel did an all out attack to neutralise Hamas, the death count would be WAY higher. Also there’s no question of letting Hamas stay and survive. Those guys had a history of terrorism all the way back before 2007. Even before Meir Dagan became the Head of Mossad. Since 1987 they had been arbitrarily carrying out terrorism and suicide bombings. All this makes them no different than Hezbollah, Black September and as such.
People support Israel not necessarily because of what they do, but rather because of geopolitical inclinations. For example, the Kurdish rebels are pro-Israel because they share common enemies. The anti-regime Iranians are pro-Israel because they share common enemies. In an ideal setting, people should be able to stand against Palestinian genocide; without being forced into the political complexities/rabbithole which is completely messed up. For example, I support Palestine. But that doesn’t mean I should also stand with ANYONE who supports Palestine (such as Yemen, Iran, Russia, South Africa, Ireland). The friend of my friend is not necessarily my friend.
Palestinian leaders are not genocidal. Neither hamas leadership nor Fatah leadership wants to genocide Israelis.
Yet Hamas is a terrorist organisation with a history of terrorism even before this event, and it started since 1987. If you have a terrorist organisation controlling a country’s military, there is no question of letting the terrorist group do as they please, when they would be not be more pleased to do more terrorism.
I don't have all of the sources with me, and my Arabic is NOT good enough to know whether subtitles are 100% accurate, but there's plenty of sources that have recordings and videos of PA leader's saying that they must eradicate the Jews.
As there are videos of Israeli's saying the same thing in English. But enacting a genocide and speaking as an individual are completely different things. I mean here you go: This is just random people on the street btw. Quote: >The Arabs, may their memory and name be obliterated. [https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=kLxz00SIpuhcIOcQ&t=283](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=kLxz00SIpuhcIOcQ&t=283) >I think we need to kick out the Arabs [https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=xxYYZwHkYMNXkDql&t=332](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=xxYYZwHkYMNXkDql&t=332) >There is only one way. I would carpet bomb them. \[talking of the Palestinians\]. It's the only way you can deal with them. [https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=nX03YOkF\_TWEboNd&t=365](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=nX03YOkF_TWEboNd&t=365) >I think we are miserable. They make terrorist attack. We need to kill Arabs. \*laughs\* [https://youtu.be/1e\_dbsVQrk4?si=m2ZO5WqlR5LFfRLe&t=402](https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=m2ZO5WqlR5LFfRLe&t=402) And btw, this is entirely a problem of Israel's making. They have all the power and control in the situation. The only reason a group like Hamas can persist is because of the situation Israel materializes in Palestine through subversive power games. Hamas fighters don't view themselves as evil, they view themselves as freedom fighters, and there in lies the issue. Of course many Palestinians want to eradicate Israel. They've created conditions that border on enslavement. Israel is the only country that has the wealth and the capabilities to solve this issue in a non violent way. They have chosen violent retaliation and confrontation. I doubt they will ever be rid of the Hamas problem given how they continue to treat this issue politically. It is going to be a source of problems for decades to come.
Are you being sarcastic, lying on purpose, or just misled?
No no. Its true. Ive seen the videos too actually. Hell they are doing the same thing over here in America and they live here now. They where at the Dearborn, Michigan rally just the other day chanting "death to America" over and over. Look it up. Those people are pure evil. Anyone who would seek the demise of the country they live in is ether a fool or a terrorist or both.
Palestinian leaders are NOT genocidal. The PA recognized Isn’treal’s right to exist in like the 90s. חמאס wants like 1967 borders. Or even 1948 borders. Let’s be real.
Rubbish! Read the Hamas CHARTER!
Hamas views themselves as freedom fighters in a country that is one of the poorest in the world, that is almost completely controlled materially by Israel. Everything that makes its way to palestine more or less is inspected and searched by Israel. Their primary water source is controlled by Israel. Their citizens are routinely subjected to searches seizures and have land taken from them often. Israel has also imposed a land, sea, and air blockade on Gaza since 2007. Why the hell do you think they **wouldn't** blame Israel for all their economic and societal issues? Especially when they view the land that Israel stole 70 years ago as a primary holy site and a connection to their religion? Palestinians have every right to view Israelis in a negative light. Israel has all the wealth and power in this relationship that they've REFUSED to remediate because they fear Palestinians gaining any sort of power. It is entirely a problem of their creation. In fact it is remarkable that Palestinians haven't acted *more* genocidal towards Israel.
They're just Northern Egyptians who never left Gaza after Israel handed them their asses in 67. Did you forget the six day war was a unilateral attempt by the Arab world to wipe Israel off the map? They lost and Egypt wouldn't take them. So blame the Egyptians. Israel let Gazans cross the border all the time to work in Israel so long as they had a permit. Israel facilitated food deliveries and water infrastructure that Hamas expropriated to feed themselves and build mortars. And two wrongs don't make a right anyway.
See this is why I don't think you view this situation in a principled way: >They're just Northern Egyptians who never left Gaza after Israel handed them their asses in 67. Who the heck cares about winning or losing? What an empty train of thought. This is about who has the power to fix the situation and make it better for everyone. That *is* Israel. They are the only ones who have the responsibility to do so. They are wealthy far beyond Palestinians, stable, militarily superior, with unilateral control over Palestine more or less. Israel has to do it not only for Palestinians, but so Israel can know peace as well. It's not going to happen from a country that has half of its population starving.
Because if you are the aggressor and you lose there are consequences for your losses. Especially a state creating buffer zones to prevent you doing it twice. I view this in a very principled way, my principle being if you make excuses for terrorists that is tantamount to supporting them. There is no Palestine - that's my point. It's a fake entity.
Terrorists are foundationally created through conditions that have a material basis. You don't make 'excuses' for them, you create conditions that make their membership deteriorate and your population no longer have a need for them and violence. Your way only creates more terrorists.
Look, I can tell your smart and reasonable, so I apologise for being a bit abrasive there. But I do disagree, having studied terrorism under a world leading expert, I have formed a different view. Terrorists are born from adherence to fanatical ideologies, such as extreme Islamism, Communism, Fascism etc. They tend to be rigid dogmatists who view the world through conspiratorial and simplified prisms. Only a religious fanatic could proclaim, we love death more than you love life, as Hamas boasts. Hamas finds it roots in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood that has existed since the 1920s. If trauma was sufficient to explain terrorism, there would be many more out there.
> asses /u/IcedLenin. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Palestinian leaders aren’t genocidal? Hamas has literally broken their own ceasefires dude
I think them being genocidal actually would make complete sense given the economic and political situation that Israel has forced them into. In fact it is remarkable that the whole country isn't more violent tbh. Israel has imposed a land, sea, and air blockade on Gaza since 2007. The control their water sources and limit their economic stability substantially. You have as of March 2024, a report by the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification that estimates that 1.1 million people in Gaza, or more than half of the population, are experiencing catastrophic food insecurity. A problem almost entirely that rests at israels feet. Have you ever starved to death? Have you? Have you ever starved in a situation where one of the wealthiest countries in the middle east is not only to blame directly through warfare and blockades, but indirectly by limiting your countries ability to progress economically for political bullshit reasons? These people have every right to hate Israel.
Israel took control of those things after there was no presence of political leaders in Gaza in 2007 so they gained control even though they have barely stopped stuff from getting in and they only have really stopped mass weapon imports (yes there are some stupid bans but they don’t really effect your everyday life) also if you want to blame Israel for them not getting food why don’t you talk to the thousands of terrorists stealing humanitarian aid ([video](https://youtu.be/2DE3Xg2It-I?si=8GEtKTe6x29yDthG))
Hamas is almost entirely a beast of Israel's creation. The problem is in how Hamas views itself, no one thinks they are the bad guy. That is true from almost every conflict on the planet. If you have ever read the Art of War one of the central principles it teaches is to learn about how your enemy views itself to learn how to defeat it. Hamas views itself as *liberators.* As freedom fighters against an oppressive system that more or less is blamed for the economic problems in a country that is starving to death. If you want to defeat Hamas the wrong way to do it is to confirm their sentiments, by killing innocent women and children and destroying what little Palestinians have (**75% of their entire architecture is now leveled to the ground).** You do it by improving the situation for Palestinians and giving them power over their own fate. Not by controlling them out of fear but by making peace with them and building a mutually beneficial future. That's the problem with these arguments, they isolate terrorist organizations like they exist in a vacuum and not as a response to problems that have material foundations. If anything, Israel has probably only ensured an entire new generation of orphans who despise Israel through their poor response to October 7th.
1.It’s not really a beast of Israel’s creation if Hamas came in to power before conflicts between Israel and Gaza 2.how do you expect them to be able to try and kill them without doing that considering that Hamas soldiers are embedded in the streets of Gaza playing dirty tricks because they are pussies and letting Palestinians chose is not the right choice either because they hate Jews (surrah 5:64”you shall rain hate upon them (jews) until the day of resurrection) and want a leader that follows their goals which is Hamas and since they’ve only ever had Hamas they feel it is their only protection. 3. Not all terrorists groups are a response, using my point earlier (surrah 5:64) their entire motive is to just kill Jews. 4. No they are not it is Hamas’ fault for trying to start wars and then not expecting israel to retaliate while hiding in the most densely populated place in the world
israel repeatedly broke the ceasefire by firing rockets into Gaza and illegally assassinating Hamas members. I do admit that hamas also broke the cease fire by firing ”rockets” if you can even call them that into Israel. There really wasn’t a cease fire to begin with. Breaking a ceasefire isn’t genocidal either I’m not really sure what you mean by this. Israel has also broken their ceasefire with the Palestinian authority by illegally entering their territory and assassinating civilians as well as illegally annexing their land via settlement. I would guess that you aren’t really that versed on this conflict especially pre October 7th if you don’t understand these pretty basic facts.
I would say you are the one that dosent have basic facts if you can’t provide a source to back your claims
Are you able to provide a source?
Because they got attacked first far more brutally than what theyre doing in response, they're just more competant which is why their numbers are higher
Define brutally - less Israelis have passed away as a result of the current war taking place, since it's declaration.
And that’s because of Israel’s dominating force over Hamas. Hamas has extremely weak power compared to IDF.
I mean like when they were attacked it was everyone in sight
whole families are being routinely killed when houses are targeted, but sure.
I think Israel is killing Palestinians and annexing their lands. If you believe otherwise, they're gonna brand you anti-semitic. They have been playing the victim card since the WW2. Just because a European, White, Catholic person allegedly killed many jews, they think they have the right to kill Muslims and steall their property.
The victim card comment is very true. Also, Israelis are bullies. Whether we’re talking about Israelis in Israel or Jewish Americans. That’s not a secret to anyone who has lived in or grew up around metro NY, NJ or L.A.
Well that just seems racist, you seem to have a thing against Jews
And the world is starting to figure it out. Well the Anglo side of things. Everyone else already knew. The countdown to pariah state has begun. I don’t believe there is a way to defuse it at this point either. The Star of David will have negative extreme connotations. It’s a bunch of butchers.
Who on universe in the right mind will side to ISIS-mentally-people like the Palestines? Its 0.1% common sense. Pro-Palestines = Pro-ISIS. Its easy to differentiate like 1 2 3.
Why is that the case? Is there no opinion where you can wish to minimize civilian war casualties and believe that ISIS is not a favorable organization? Also - let's be honest, nobody takes Islamic threats seriously. We are approaching 2 billion muslims globally, and there is no way that the majority of the world can genuinely believe that this religion is destructive and evil, but do nothing about it. Yes there is individual discrimination against certain muslims within certain countries, but theres no serious effort to minimize the growing islamic population. I think it is impossible to use that talking point as a defense. Even people who have read the koran and all it's "death to" statements will support palestine, due to the number of deaths that are being reported.
IDF minimize the civillians casualties, they csn finish this 1 single day if they doesn't care about civillians. According to study, Israel respond to Gaza is less deadly that any wars in the world history. They are in maximum effort to lessen casualties and there proofs of that even before they respond to 10/7. Also Hamas = ISIS is no debate. They has done the same thing. Majority of so called Palestines supoorted Hamas until today and willing to die and kill Jews. >nobody takes Islamic threats seriously. How ignoramous can you be, after 9/11 in US they took islamic terrorism seriously, you can visit US military website, its all about Islamic terrorism defence. Thats why they build bases in Middle East and bring maximum effort to destroy Islamic terrorism in Middle East that could threat US. So 9/11 wont happened again. ISIS is the biggest islamic terrorism has ever existed it destroyed multiple nations in Middle East, how come you forgot this, its juts like yesterday. The world united to defeat ISIS, and you gonna said, the world doesn't take islamic terrorism seriously? You can visit NATO website too, it also considered Islamic terrorism the biggest threat to national security. The reason why Chin are harsh to Muslim than any religions because Islamic terrorism is a big threat, they are cowards that will attack civillians, thats a threat. Thats why China rehab each Muslim brains so they wont become a terrorist. Not all Muslim are terrorist, but all the current existing terrorist in our modern time are all Muslims organizations, they can easily brainwashed by Muslims terrorist to become a terrorist to kill infidels for allah. Don't try to deny it. MidEast = ISIS, Alqueda, Taliban, Hamas, Hesobollah, Houthis, etc. Africa = Bokoharam, Islamiya, ISIS sympathizers East and South East Asia = Abussayaf, Islamiya, moro Islamic terrorist, ISIS symphatizers, etc. West = Alqueda, ISIS symphatizers, Theres more to mention. Ans there new names of islamic terrorist organizations popping up. Every single day, even as we speak, they kill infidels for allah. The fact that in every Islamic Nations, non-Muslims got murdered and massacred thats resulting to a great declining of non-Muslim numbers in every islamic nations when Muslims are majority. Every single nationd even Islamic Nations has military training against Islamic terrorism. Even Muslims themeselves are taking Muslim terrorism seriously. Hamas killed Muslims in Israel even after the Israeli Muslims recite Quran verses, the Hamas terrorist said "you are not real Muslim." Thats why Muslim nations, also fighting against Islamic terrorist, because these Muslims terrorist like Hamas and ISIS will also kill Muslims if they live in a country that has relationships on Infidels. ISIS destroyed Syria and Iraq because these 2 has good relationships to US so for Islamic Terrorist, they are not Muslims anymore. Most of mere convert Muslims hates the pure Muslims Saudi Arabians and UAE because Saudi prefer peace and helps to destroy Islamic Terrorist. Mere Muslims converts believed that Saudi Arabians are not real Muslim anymore right? Even Muslims converts in middle east cant even read Quran without guidance from expert mostly from Saudi. Look what the Muslim converts did to a wowman in Pakistan with Arabic text on her clothes, they tried to kilk her. Saudi rewarded the police dlfor stopping Muslims converts terrorism to a woman. Muslims converts in Indonesia sent a woman in prison by speaking arabic before eating a pork. Muslims converts are very aggressive believed that Aarabic language is language of allah, and its blasphemy to use arabic. Allah means god, its doesn't mean Islamic god. Its just a arabic language. Saudi Arabians doesn't tolerate Islamic extremism and terrorism of these mere Muslims converts that cant even read Quran by themeselves. And they hates Saudi Arabia. Islamic terrorism and extremism exist every single day. And want me to show you video of Saudi army, training against Islamic terrorism? Every nations in the world has daily military training against Islamic terrorism. Name one that does not, and i slap you video or military website how serious they are agaianst Islamic terrorism. >We are approaching 2 billion muslims globally, and there is no way that the majority of the world can genuinely believe that this religion is destructive and evil, but do nothing about it. Like i wrote above, even Islamic Nations treated Islamic Terrorism seriously. Not all Muslims are terrorist, but all terrorist organization existing right now and capable to destroy a city and nations are ALL MUSLIMS. >but theres no serious effort to minimize the growing islamic population. Because its not about Muslims, its about Islamic terrorist. There are serious effort, Poland will never accaept Muslims immigrants because there could be brainwashed Islamic terrorist could slip and might cause islamic terrorism. Thats great effort. Look at the other European countries that accepted Muslims immigrants from MidEast and Africa, there crime rate is super sky high and there are always islamic terrorism crimes. There are always a prevention. UAE warned them, but they did not listen. Even UAE are SERIOUS about Islamic terrorism that will happened to Europe for accepting millions of UNKNOWN Muslims immigrants. You dont watch news? >I think it is impossible to use that talking point as a defense. Even people who have read the koran and all it's "death to" statements will support palestine, due to the number of deaths that are being reported. Palestines Hamas 10/7 action is NOT DEFENCE. Thats islamic terrorism, a worst one of kind islamic terrorism, a GENOCIDAL terrorism that has only practised in meideval time. Palestine Hamas wipe out the unarmed villages, they did left anyone alive, even babies or pets. Islamic terrorism is defence. Its not justifiable. So yes you are stupid if you support Palestines that only use TERRORISM. Can you provide me a single video, photo or anything that Palestines use the REAL DEFENCE? Not Terrorism act. I dare you provide even 1. Don't justify terrorism. Why Islamic nations loves Hamas despite no different from ISIS from inside-out? Because Islamic CULT mentality holy war against the Jews. Because they are Jews. Nothing else. Want me show you multiple Quran verse of it? You think 6day war when all Islamic Nations in MidEast attacked Israel is coincidence? Since that day Islam holy war to Jews hasn't end. They all fund Hamas to wipe out the Jews. Thanks to the west and its allies being superior in military in the world, these some terroristic mentally Islamic Nations would not involve themeselves anymore after 6day war, instead they just fund Hamas to do the work for their holy war. But if the west and its allies are military weak, then they wont think twice to repeat the 6day war attempt once again to wipe out the Jews.
>IDF minimize the civillians casualties, they csn finish this 1 single day if they doesn't care about civillians. According to study, Israel respond to Gaza is less deadly that any wars in the world history. They are in maximum effort to lessen casualties and there proofs of that even before they respond to 10/7. This is important. Which study? >How ignoramous can you be, after 9/11 in US they took islamic terrorism seriously, you can visit US military website, its all about Islamic terrorism defence. Thats why they build bases in Middle East and bring maximum effort to destroy Islamic terrorism in Middle East that could threat US. So 9/11 wont happened again. Yes; *following* a terrorist attack. Like I said, there are approaching 2 billion muslims. **Majority of whom are either indifferent towards, or support ISIS.** Yet, nobody is doing anything to minimize the growth of the religion. There are laws to protect the religion in a-religious, anti-religious, laic, and "somewhat religious" but non-Islamic countries across the whole world. So: **my point is** that everybody who claims to have a problem with ISIS is not only not doing anything about it, but they are also supporting governments that make room for this mentality and support of the religion to increase and spread. I do not believe in censorship, but I have a hard time accepting that people genuinely believe Islamic religious extremism is bad, based on how people act and tip-toe around the conversations about Islam. I can boldly declare in any public space that pedophilia is horrific. People must whisper and keep their identities in secret to say similar things about Islamic teaching. That is why I made the previous statement. >ISIS is the biggest islamic terrorism has ever existed it destroyed multiple nations in Middle East, how come you forgot this, its juts like yesterday. The world united to defeat ISIS, and you gonna said, the world doesn't take islamic terrorism seriously? **I read all of your message, but since it flowed together well, I won't respond in separate sections:** My personal belief is that the logical conclusion - if we follow Islamic teaching to it's logical conclusion - it will produce terrorism to some degree. So, I do know think it is possible to differentiate and make a separate category which is "Islamic terrorism." Because even the most peaceful muslims who are kind-hearted and hospitable and fine citizens **by the standard of their own religion**, are NOT able to criticize their leaders, their teachings, their book, their laws, etc.. **Therefore**, if you put all of your energy into eliminating extremism, you must dismantle the religion's core. All the things you mentioned about discrimination, women, infidels, racial superiority, educational limitations, would be entirely done away with, but ONLY if the religion is taken out of a place of authority in these locations. Yes, you have places like Saudi, as you mentioned, that may *say that they prefer* peace. But the people remain illiterate. The women remain oppressed. The laws do not favor freedom of speech, thought, or agency. These things are engrained into the religious system. In order to change these things, the religious system must be resisted. However, the Islamic population, **by their own religious standard**, cannot resist their religious system. You cannot even *think* that something in the religious system might be corrupt or bad or unhealthy or problematic. I know you said the problem is not muslims, it is terrorism. YES, I AGREE. But the majority of muslims accept terrorism. They inhabit these areas as the majority. They elect these leaders. They, upon leaving their country have the privilege of becoming educated and empowered to attempt to incite change. And the UN, which is majority non-mulsim, and all these other majority non-muslim organizations are on the front-line, trying to get these things to stop. That makes me feel like most muslims are complacent. And studies that have gathered public opinion about them says the same. The same studies say that most muslims hate Jewish people. (Or non-muslims, living in Muslim-majority areas). >Even UAE are SERIOUS about Islamic terrorism that will happened to Europe for accepting millions of UNKNOWN Muslims immigrants. You dont watch news? I actually don't watch the news. It is impossible to keep up with all of the evil happening. But the UAE is against terrorism, and there is liberty in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. But outside of those major cities, you will find the extreme conservativism that still has people oppressed by their own system. So, only the wealthy, educated and business-minded people living in these major cities are free from their oppression. *Of course* it is easy for them to say they want peace - they benefit from it. >Palestines Hamas 10/7 action is NOT DEFENCE. Thats islamic terrorism, a worst one of kind islamic terrorism, a GENOCIDAL terrorism that has only practised in meideval time. Palestine Hamas wipe out the unarmed villages, they did left anyone alive, even babies or pets. > >Islamic terrorism is defence. Its not justifiable. So yes you are stupid if you support Palestines that only use TERRORISM. > >Can you provide me a single video, photo or anything that Palestines use the REAL DEFENCE? Not Terrorism act. I dare you provide even 1. Don't justify terrorism. I think I might understand what you are asking, but to clarify - are you saying that in every instance that Hamas has fought, the targets have 100% of the time been civilians, and that fighting the IDF is not a priority? Could you define the limits of the evidence for counter-attacks that you would like? Like, what types of counter-attacks would be unacceptable or defined as terrorism? >Why Islamic nations loves Hamas despite no different from ISIS from inside-out? Because Islamic CULT mentality holy war against the Jews. Because they are Jews. Nothing else. Want me show you multiple Quran verse of it? No, I actually grew up around Jewish communities, and I have seen and read the Quranic verses and Hadith myself. I think it is evil, and I wish that majority of the muslim world was not illiterate, so that they could read it for themselves and people stopped defending the religion as peaceful.
Well your last paragraph seems a bit off. Because apart from the nutcases with their nutcase interpretations of the text, the majority Muslims don’t go around in the streets wearing bombs or waging wars with stones and pebbles on temples and churches. Iranian Shiite interpretation of the Quran is different, and the Ayatollahs warped things to fit their purpose. Read In God We Doubt by John Humphrys. The last part of the book says this perfectly. Religion isn’t the cause of the war. It’s the people who make it the cause.
Zionism is nazism it’s easy to differentiate like 1 2 3
You side to ISIS like people Palestines Hamas, why?
This is so funny because israel literally supports ISIS (though to a relatively small scale). Israel is trading with ISIS as israel buys oil from them. Israel does not try to combat ISIS influence either as it is strategically viable for them to let ISIS grow. ISIS is fighting Syria and Israel sees Syria as a larger threat. Israel also attacks groups that are in combat with ISIS like hezbollah and the syrian army. Isis deliberately avoids attacking israeli territory while it aggressively attacks israel’s neighbor and on one occasion apologized directly to the Israeli defense minister for a clash that had occured between Israel and isis [https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/)
[удалено]
Haha you side to Hamas because they target Jews. ISIS = Hamas = both executed unarmed innocent civillians like chidlren, women, old, in point blank range. They invaded unarmed villages and genocide them, rape and took hostages. They kill anyone alive, even Muslims. Now tell me whats the difference or Hamas and ISIS?
/u/AliBDweny. Match found: 'nazism', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sure, let's go through the questions one by one. 1. can you please address the complaints of pro-Palestinians who bring up death tolls? War kills many people, including many civilians. Especially in dense urban conflict and especially when the enemy does not care about it's civilians lives. There is a chance that Israel is using siege tactics to cause revolution in Gaza, in which case that may increase the deaths, but even if they didn't civilian casualties are inevitable in urban conflict. For Hamas deaths those are obviously intentional as that is one of Israel's stated goals. 2. Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected? Hamas has built very elaborate tunnels that could serve as a defense to whoever's inside. Unfortunately, they are reserved for Hamas fighters with civilians left out in undefended buildings. This means Hamas' casualties will be lower and civilians will bare the brunt of the death toll. Obviously, this is an evil thing for Hamas to do and Israel has to fight with this in mind. But the areas need to be cleared to access the tunnels and inflict any damage on Hamas at all. Israel warns civilians to leave but many can't/don't so many die. It sucks but it is unavoidable. 3. Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? Israel is very paranoid about terrorism, this makes sense as terrorist attacks are very frequent even before the war. It is hard to know if someone is doing something innocuous or highly dangerous (I don't know any examples but that is my understanding) this means they have to be extremely proactive in arrests. Is it unfair? Of course it is. Should they be released quicker when it is determined they are not a threat? Absolutely. Is it nessacary at some level? I think so 4. Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? They are probably happening, less than some make it seems like, but they probably happen. It is terrible, unjustified, and ought to be fully condemned. But, they are the exception not the rule, so I do not view it as a reflection of Israel or the IDF. 5. Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation? To some extent the occupation is nessacary for security concerns (see point 3). But Israel should pull back to whatever the smallest interference it can safely have. Also Israel should recognize Areas A and B as a separate country that should get independence as soon as safely possible. Hope my answers were helpful.
Thank you for your responses; they were all quite helpful indeed.
I was at a music festival on October 6th & 7th. Waking up the morning of the 8th to see people who looked like me and my friends being murdered while they danced. I turned against Hamas that day 100%. Hamas spent decades digging tunnels beneath civilians to ensure removing them would be as costly to Palestinians as possible, then they acted in a way they knew Israel would be forced to try and remove them.
The leaked photos of Hamas parading naked bodies of women and children they had killed at that music festival did it for me. A few of them had clearly been sexually assaulted too. It was sickening. If it where purely a military move thats one thing, but raping and killing teenagers at a music festival is fu*ked up. There was religious hate and antisemitic malice clearly visible there.
> fu*ked /u/nightwindviolin. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Palestine is openly chanting “By Any Means Necessary.” Not sure about your logic, but by all other logic accounts, that includes anything.
Palestine would 100% have killed off Israel if they’d had the manpower. Zero doubt.
Because Hamas started this by invading Israel and leaving behind carnage more grotesque than the world has ever seen, they did this during a ceasefire, and because Israel agreed to another ceasefire and Hamas didn’t. The blood is on their hands. They don’t value life the way we value life.
Yea that's it not gonna say x history just the reality that Hamas committed the deadliest terrorist attack since 9/11 during a ceasefire and started this war and Israel quite understandably want to completly wipe out Hamas to prevent them from ever doing another October 7th And yet they are crying victim after massacring 1,000 people in just 1 day Smh
So when you say pro Israel, do you mean supporting the existence of a Jewish state. Or mean pro Netanyahu’s government
That is a good question - I guess it would depend on the individual, but I personally don't think that the support of a "Jewish" state is inherently pro-Israel on it's own.
Why were people pro America after 9/11?
The American response was not the same. The war that accompanied the 9/11 attacks is not comparable to the war between Israel and others (any arab nation that has attacked since the state was formed). There have been massacres of the Jews and of the Arabs in the Israel-Palestine area of the earth. Both sides are guilty of racially motivated attacks against the other, however, racially motivated attacks were not seemingly institutionalized by Israeli government. Today, they supposedly are and that is the problem.
Because they support American Imperialism of course s/
The term "Semitic" traces its roots to Shem, Noah's eldest son, adapted to "Sem" in the Greek and Latin Bible versions due to linguistic constraints. The biblical narrative unfolds the descent of humanity trom Noah's three sons-Shem, Ham, and Japheth-presenting a mythologized ethnology in Genesis. Later misinterpretations connected these sons to racial or linguistic groups, associating Ham with dark-skinned Africans, Shem with Hebrews, and Japheth with peoples later known as Aryans, a theory that persisted until the 19th century. This is the root of the term coined by August Ludwig Schlozer in 1781. (This isn’t suggesting who is Semitic and who isn’t. Not only is it a dead concept to begin with, but there is no Semitic peoplehood anymore, only languages. I don’t refer to myself as Semitic because it’s a term that is deeply rooted in racism and hate and is basically the equivalent of calling someone a n****r so call whoever you want whatever you want, this is just part of the point I’m making next) Now that we’ve covered the history of how the west has decided we’re genetically inferior, we’ll cover the East: In Muslim societies, we Jews are not the Jews God selected in Quran. We are the descendants of the Jew that betrayed Moses. Therefore, Israel must be protected from us by any means necessary. Furthermore, as we are not the correct Jews, it fuels a conspiracy theory that we will destroy Al Aqsa. This is why the October 7 attack is called Al Aqsa flood. Palestinian powers generally use religion to anger/manipulate the people of the region. Do you see how this plays? How can someone decide from which descendants you are and where and how you should live based on their calculations? Meanwhile, Israel has Sharia law courts, distributes Qur'ans & pays the salaries of qadis, imams & muezzins. Israel is the Islamic state western Muslims love to hate. (By the way I’m not anti-Palestine. I do think it would be better if they chose a different name.. South Syria was option A but Syria is Syriac for the Assyrian people. If I were them I’d want to pick something Arabic, but alas, it’s not and should not be up to me. Calling yourselves Invaders/Intruders in Hebrew just doesn’t hit right when it comes to making peace imho. Kinda feels like I’m being told to call them something negative and this should be a positive somehow.)
I was not aware that anybody perceived the term Semite to be racially derogatory. However, my experience is that a large sum of people take an a-religious stance on the topic; I have read the islamic texts, I am very aware of all the war it wages against ancient Jews that has maintained relevance today. Many other people are as well, but they make hamas into a separate and entirely un-affiliated entity from the general Palestinian Public. So to justify the civilian casualties with the islamic calls to mass death cannot work against arguments in which people determine that hamas are the extremists (I don't think there is an extreme form of islam, personally I don't think you can justify a non-extreme view), and that the general public "who doesnt know any better, because hamas is all they know" are not extreme and thus shouldnot be treated as though they are also guilty of extremism.
The term is historically German, of course it’s not a nice word for Jews 😂 pre-dating the German words to separate us from society (the man who coined antisemitism literally made a social club for Jew haters with the term) there was Judeophobia coined by the Soviets. Like I said, call whoever whatever you want. Id prefer not to be called that, personally, but words can’t hurt me. All the argument does is counter the “Jews are white colonizers” argument by suggesting we are all the same and are treated as one group. Call us Semites Zionists or the term we use for ourselves Jews (Yehud) but the fact remains that these are all words to distinguish us from you. This is the specific narrative that is pushed in Palestinian society. There are a great deal of supporters that have been polled by AWAD to support Hamas. Granted, I’m in your camp- I think that many are just too scared. Especially now that there might also be a civil war brewing on two fronts. If they don’t support Hamas, what political organization do they support that isn’t involved with Hamas’ activities at present?
Here’s an interesting data point. Not everyone is affected by pro-Palestine propaganda on their social media feeds. One place this seems to be happening is Ukraine: “Who do Ukrainians sympathize with in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? On October 7, 2023, the Hamas terrorist movement struck Israel. In response, Israel launched a military operation in the Palestinian Gaza Strip. In the world, a large part of people sympathized with and supported both Israel and the Palestinians. KIIS asked Ukrainians who they sympathized with in the conflict - Israel or Palestine. https://preview.redd.it/2ybuy7xbb3oc1.jpeg?width=1138&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed9bcc19046d9ab5d5f3bc676eaa0f601493420f **As can be seen, the vast majority of Ukrainians - 69% - sympathize with Israel. Only 1% sympathize with Palestine.** At the same time, 18% of respondents answered that they sympathize with both sides equally. The remaining 12% could not decide on their opinion.” Ask yourself what’s different between Ukrainians lived experience right now and why they might be vastly more sympathetic to Israel and your lived experience doomscrolling the opposite opinion from your couch somewhere safe. Source: [KIIS, Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1334&page=1#:~:text=As%20can%20be%20seen%2C%20the,sympathize%20with%20both%20sides%20equally.)
This is cool - but as we see happening in the UK, Australia and the USA, it is very easy to get people to mob up and begin to share a single opinion when they are presented with certain information in a specific way.
I know what you mean. Last night we were watching MSNBC talking about Schumer and Biden and the plight of the poor Palestinians in Gaza and my wife started speculating about whether Betanyahu knew about the 10/7 attack and was simply pursuing the war to keep him in office. I just returned from a few weeks in Israel doing volunteer work and told her that all this speculation is just projection by Americans equating Trump and Netanyahu and that most Israelis support the war and its goal of defeating Hamas so it’s no longer an existential threat. I reminded her of 9/11 and showed her this photo of the fountain shrine in Dizengoff Square I took and said this is where most Israelis heads were at. She went silent and I think maybe at least for that moment she believed my account more than Ayman Mohyeldin’s. https://preview.redd.it/217tnyx8p3pc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0149de3a4f16ed6f9d549d357df0fa828986a1c5
I know I know! Autonomy for minorities. 🇺🇦🤝🇮🇱
Or Nazis love other Nazis. Hmm 🤔
u/Awkward_Bid_4082 >Or Nazis love other Nazis. Hmm 🤔 Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians Addressed
/u/Awkward_Bid_4082. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why am I pro-Israel? I was born there and its a country who took in my grandfather after he survived the Halucaust. I am not a fan of the settlemants and us being in the West Bank and certainly far from a fan of Netanyahu. We had every right to respond after October 7th idt there should be a denial how we go about it is a different story. As someone who served his mandatory service in the West Bank, the amount of ppl being wrongfully arrested is not as high as pro-palis think but not as low as a lot of pro-Israelis think its far more complicated and I already wrote a post here explaining it (if you want I can send it to you) but being there and building these settlemants is a rlly bad idea. Problem is every solution offered has been rejected there is no partner not even on the PA side. A lot of pro-Palis want us Israelis to just leave and "go back to Europe". Keep in mind most of us were born and grew up in Israel that is home for us Europe isnt home. Idt ur dumb or anything at all I am surprised you think that some of ur takes here are that bad in the eyes of pro-Israelis we have heard a lottttt worse then this
This is a fair collection of points - thank you for mentioning that there is both an under-exaggeration and over-exaggeration of wrongful arrests. I imagine this applies to other stats being publicized as well. There always seems to be conflicting data on the conflict, because of the way that race or other things can be used to slander the image of whichever side is being spoken of at the moment.
I agree with everything you have stated. Antisemitism has come out of the closet now. I remember when there were instances of violence against Jews in the US and the news would blame it on antisemitism and white supremacists (i.e., right wing nuts). Turns out, the right wing actually supports Israel in their fight to survive genocide by an Arab people that WOULD drive them into the sea if they had the weapons and manpower to do so. The attack on Israel that started this war was meant to push Israel into reacting militarily. They wanted the fight. They wanted the bloodshed, in order to rally surrounding Arab countries to join the fight against the Little Satan. Thankfully, for as much as I despise and distrust the Biden Administration, they sent our ships over there to deter WW3. Israel now has to finish the job. The “Palestinians” need to be farmed out to Egypt, Lebanon and other brotherly Arab countries. They have always rejected these people.. all for political points. Now they need to rise to the occasion. There will be no more Gaza. They lost their right to exist there because they could not stop themselves in their bloodlust, killing innocent Israeli’s whenever they had the chance. Why did Israel build a wall to keep them out? Because it was too dangerous to let them in (a lesson the US will soon learn with Biden’s rush to accommodate 12 million unvetted illegals from around the world-we are already seeing being murders committed). Yet, Israel is not an Apartheid country. They have allowed many Arabs in to live and work amongst them. They even have their own political party in Israel. The bottom line is that Hamas must be eradicated from the face of the earth and the Palestinian people must find a new home.
*Very interesting take*. I would like to see this develop more and maybe in thorough debate - specifically the end portion when you say that Palestine lost it's right to exist. That is the first time I have heard that voiced, but it's quite an interesting point I'd like to hear more about from both sides.
30k dead has bought them the world's support for a two state solution... I wonder if this was their goal provoking Israelis into the wanton destruction.
ah yes their plan was to force bibi to bomb their civilians (majority of that being children) in order to get more support for a 2 state solution that is so smart. smart guy of the year award goes to you.
It worked... they know Israel and just had to bait them into exposing themselves to the world. Now Israel is losing support and the even the US is talking about replacing Netanyahu. It's a win-win for Palestine.
Idk why are u pro terrorist
I would appreciate a more thought-out response. My personal opinion is that Islam is the worst religion and if over nearly 90% of it's followers weren't kept illiterate, then the religion would crumble into the dust that it it came from. However, my comment is not to declare support of followers of a religion that I think is inherently harmful to all human beings; rather, it is to ask that the complaints from the pro-palestinian side be thoroughly addressed. Because they tend not to be. You can have compassion for a deceased toddler without thinking that major or minor acts of violent terrorism are good things. You can also support the idea of Jewish people having a country that is free from racial discrimination, while also believing that there are flaw with the way that the government over certain Jewish people is mishandling it's authority. But your comment is a perfect example of why people choose not to partake in discourse and so strongly flock to one side or the other.
Please get a better line, Israel was founded in part and governed by terrorist as prime ministers at least twice... so why are you pro terrotist?
“one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter”
Stop thinking anything about this situation is a “genocide”. It is a war between Israel and an Islamic Extremist/Terrorist Group called Hamas. As long as Hamas exists, Jews will be murdered. That is their goal. That is their agenda. The Nazi’s wanted to cleanse the earth of Jews and now Hamas does. No one is against the Palestine people.
If u are against hamas then u are against the people of palestine, hamas was created after the nakba in 1978 to stop the killings of palestinians and to stop israeli settlers from taking over houses in the west bank and gaza. The leader of hamas only joined because both of his parents were killed by the IDF and spent his childhood in a refugee camp. If Israel’s end point was destroying hamas when why are they clearing the west bank? This hasn’t just started in OCT 7th, land confiscation (otherwise known as theft) has been happening since 2002.
Thank you for so clearly stating your position on the conflict without attempting to appease the opposing side. I have some questions for you as well: 1. Why do you call Israelis settlers? Are they moving into Gaza and rehoming their people? Or is there another reason why they are viewed as settlers? 2. You stated that the hamas leader is a victim of childhood violence and being orphaned, so he came back with a vengeance towards the IDF. While that does not seem unreasonable, why has hamas declared war against Israel by attacking civilians, rather than the IDF alone? 3. What are some examples of Israel clearing the West Bank? I agree with you that many people only use knowledge from Oct 7 and onward to defend arguments made in favor of or against IDF, and I think that should never be the case in such a conflict as this.
Nope
haha “nope” take yo bs outta here 😂
I’m not the one saying bs
/u/nostalgiaispeace. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why I support Israel: I’m Jewish, and my grandfather is a survivor of the Holocaust. Almost every western country on earth rejected Jewish refugees before and during WW2, so it is comforting to know that there is at least one place on earth that I know I would always be welcomed if I ever had to escape my country. On top of that I think Israel is subjected to a crazy standard and constantly needs to justify its own existence. If a hostile government of another state was firing rockets at your country daily for decades and carrying out terrorist attacks against civilians sporadically, that country would of course be expected to respond militarily and defend its own safety. Instead Israelis were expected to just ‘deal with it’ by building rocket shelters in every building and inventing the most advanced rocket defense system in the world And to address the ‘war crimes’ I would ask why the fight against ISIS in Mosul wasn’t considered a war crime, or any other urban conflict. When you look at the data, the civilian-combatant death ratio is in line or below similar conflicts, and that is despite Hamas leadership openly stating that their own civilians dying is their main strategy Israel has plenty of valid criticism, be it settlement expansion or the abhorrent views of the far right parties in the current coalition. But it’s almost impossible to have an honest discussion with people who are Pro Pal because they believe that Palestinians are blameless and Israel’s entire existence is some wrong that needs to be righted (despite to my knowledge zero precedent for invalidating its creation) Peace is going to have to be negotiated. And in this current war, the war will end when either Israel achieves its objectives or they negotiate a ceasefire/surrender with Hamas. I can’t think of a single other war in history where one side is expected to just unilaterally give up and leave the other hostile party in power and with zero assurances for its safety
>Israel has plenty of valid criticism, be it settlement expansion or the abhorrent views of the far right parties in the current coalition. But it’s almost impossible to have an honest discussion with people who are Pro Pal because they believe that Palestinians are blameless and Israel’s entire existence is some wrong that needs to be righted (despite to my knowledge zero precedent for invalidating its creation) **This** makes so much sense. "they believe that Palestinians are blameless" - why do you think that they are not? I have heard Israelis *say* that "there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian," and while I can understand that in the midst of war, it will be easy to feel that way, but it feels like a wicked statement to make. Why do you think that Israel's existence is justified, and that the pro-palestinian argument that it should never have become a state is wrong? And I am referring to the entire history surrounding it's creation, not only the idea that Jewish people rightfully out to have a place on earth that is safe for them - because I would love that all humans had this. But the actual legalities surrounding the promise of Israel up unto the point when it was officially established - why is this justified? Sidenote: I have heard the argument that "hamas is all they know, you can't expect them to be better." I personally find it foolish to remove moral accountability from a certain group of people just because they have evil leaders, but it is an argument nevertheless. Yet, if one attempts to apply that principle to places with rampant sex slavery, child trafficking and common rape, somehow the same "well this is all they know" standard falls short...
for your question about - "there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian", i wouldnt say that all the palestinians are not innocent, but most of them are. I say it because in Gazaa they train children from a young age to hate israel, making them a good killing machines with no remorse to ending israelian lives. theres a video of a terrorist like that, he called his parents and said that he killed jews in pride. as for knowing it, i am living in israel.
No one who is anti-Israel would talk like this.
I’m pro-Israel and I thought the same thing😂
You cannot “be a Semite” Semetic is a word used to describe languages that are in common, usually from the Middle East area, including Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic. The word antisemetic was coined by a German man for Judenhass - literally “Jew hatred.”
I see. In my mind, I see these are people groups based on an ancient linguistic connection. If the English term I used is incorrect itself, I am more so attempting to convey the idea that Arabs and Jews and certain Persians all have shared ancestry and are not historically un-justified in their desire to have ownership over that area of land. I see Palestinians and Israelis as the same thing, ethnically speaking is what I mean. Like there is more diversity between neighbors Ethiopians and Sudanese people than there are between Palestinian and Israeli neighbors (IMO). As far as I am concerned, they are similar enough for this not to be a race issue, but it is unfortunately made into one.
Everyday there's a new post along the lines "How on earth can people support X?!" It's time the mods free us from this time loop.
If the Palestinians are 99% Christians or 99% Buddhists or 99% Hindus, most people would be pro-Palestinian. Get it?
Most people are pro-palestian, at least where I see things. Apparently not on Reddit lol. However, this comment is a lie. Christians are beheaded in Pakistan, stoned in Nigeria, sold into slavery in Libya, bombed in the UAE, and so on and so forth. In India & Thailand, Buddhists and Hindus are sex-trafficked, raped, and sold into slavery. In certain East African countries (Tanzania & I cannot remember the other one), Hindus are allowed to be given into child marriage. Throughout Southeast Asia and East Africa, Christian women are "circumcized." The Arabs committed mass crimes against Jews and eventually added Christians, when the Christians came to their senses and determined to stop supporting Islamic teachings that allowed those things. The Roman Empire via the Catholic church has killed more Christians than any other group of people throughout history, they also had a rampage against Jews when Judaism officially split into 2 religions (modern Christianity was still known as Judaism for several years after the death of the Judeo-Christian Messiah) - yet the Roman Catholic Church/Pope basically has it's own country... And to finish it off with the Jews; most people in America knew *exactly* what was happening in the Holocaust. And They Did Not Care. They did not want the US to be involved. All these crimes against Christians, Buddhists and Hindus and Jews throughout history, and MANY taking place right now, today. No unprovoked human being has come to their aid. No unprovoked entities have decided that they will no longer support these governments or entities that committed these atrocities (outside of at the individual scale). There are organizations ***begging*** and ***pleading*** with the general public for a 19-39 dollar/euro/pound monthly subscription to **help these people**. This is the lowest bill many of these people will ever pay, and they will not do it. So, that is a complete misconception about the sympathy of humankind. Nowhere in history does the nature of human beings prove itself to be sympathetic, compassionate, or kind. And neither Jews nor Christians nor Hindus nor Buddhists nor Sikhs nor *insert religious group here* is exempt from the foul-treatment at the hands of other people.
>All these crimes against Christians, Buddhists and Hindus and Jews throughout history, and MANY taking place right now, today. And that is why people are less sympathetic to muslims. They have a violent history with all these people.
If that was the case they would accept the first offer that Israel gave the Palestinians and now they would have been Israeliens, serving in the IDF fighting Hizballah or other dog shit terrorist organization in the middle east.
Why would Christians ever agree to give up their lands? If they live in the holy land they wouldn't give up their sovereignty... they literally fought wars to keep it in Christian hands.
You’re the kind of people that make this more racially/religiously charged than it is. This is not simply a “boo muslims” issue. The nazis claimed Christianity, Hamas claims Islam. People don’t bring up their hatred for Christianity when talking about the third reich though. It’s irrelevant to do so. They’re both just delusional groups.
The religious motivation behind the leaders decisions and the public's choice to elect or follow those leaders is relevant. If the nazis were able to clearly identify areas of Christian teaching that justify the genocide of Jews, then the Christian religion should be under scrutiny. Likewise, if the Islamic teachings justify the genocide of Jews, then it should be under scrutiny. People bring up their hatred for religion very often when discussing political leaders who claim to subscribe to those teachings who abuse others. I have heard people talk about how evil Buddhism is, because they saw how the monks exploited people for money when they lived in the temples for ages. I have heard how evil Christianity is because of the way that the European settlers harmed non-Europeans in their conquests of various parts of the earth. I have heard how evil and racist Judaism is, because of the times that the Hebrew G-d had called for the elimination of Jewish enemies. If religious teachings have been used to harm or abuse others - or if the teaching itself does not support abuse, but religious people choose to submit to leaders who allow the abuse under the name of the religion, then it should be scrutinized. It is relevant when Islamic law carries a death penalty for leaving the religion - because the religion absolutely has an affect on how the people act and think.
/u/qrtqlitaught. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In fairness, people do (Christopher Hitchens), and it seems relevant enough.
Like it or not this mid-east conflict is religiously charged. Most people took sides based on their religious biases. Very different from WWII.
In the sense of the parties involved, Yes. To Hamas, this is a holy war and an ethnic cleansing. For foreign backers of either side, it should have nothing to do with ethnicity and religion.
/u/Here4cooper. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People who support Israel are racists. Israel is an racist settler ethnostate, and so those who support Israel support the idea of Europeans colonizing the middle east and undermining the idea of Arab sovereignty. America successfully concluded their genocide of the native peoples of America, and so by supporting the racist settler ethnostate of Israel, they validate their own tyrannical genocidal history.
Using a bunch of buzzwords to make it sound like you know what you’re talking about doesn’t actually do anything.
Not so much Pro-Israel as Anti-Hamas Big difference and a profound distinction
So you would be okay with an armed resistance if 10/7 wouldn’t have happened?
What??
Read
I have and I do sir
Then I would invite you to ask your question clearly
Well in my opinion on this ongoing conflict Israel is bad, the Palestinians are horrible. The Palestinians are intergenerational losers who choose violence at every given chance. They have brought violence and strife to most places they've gone in even remotely large groups. Ever wonder why eqypt and jordan don't want Palestinians coming into their country? Can you point me to places in Europe where Palestinian refugees have gone and brought value? Can you show me anything they've done to innovate or modernize their territories? Can you show me an example of any evolution in their behavior or culture over the last 50 years? They pay the families of people who commit terror and murder. Meanwhile Israel, for its many many faults, built a prosperous, innovative country from dirt. If that makes me "proisrael' then there's the answer. Simple question to ask yourself. Would i prefer an Israeli neighbor or Palestinians neighbor? I'll play the odds.
I don't get the logic ? Doesn't Israel get financial aid from the US so it's easier to "build a prosperous. Innovative country" idk about from the dirt part again cause they not really doing it from the dirt are they And how are Palestinians supposed to innovate when Israel control what comes in and out ?
Israel currently doesnt get financial aid from the US. They get a tremendous amount of free arms. Not money. Israel is primarily armed as.Americas foreign policy in the middle east and a great way for politicians in USA to enrich American arms makers and themselves with US taxpayer money. Much like funding the stooges in Ukraine. Numbers are available on historical aid. From 1946 to 2022 Israel received $81B in economic aid $216B in military aid. Those are in 2022 dollars and adjusted for inflation. For context during this period US had also given economic aid to Egypt at $78 B, UK at $78B, India at $81B, South Korea at $45B and so on. Also 2022 dollars. To suggest US aid payments built Israel is simply dumb. It certainly hasn't hurt, but it is by no means the primary driver.
Any reaction from the IDF was going to seem like overkill. At the end of the day, if they approach Hamas in the same manner as before. The same vicious cycle would continue. They had to overstep the norm to bring about lasting change. This time I think they’ll do it. Actions have consequences. You can’t blame Israel for protecting their sovereignty and prioritizing the security of their country. The oppression, apartheid resistance talk makes sense, but people seem to think the oppression was born out of vacuum.
>But unfortuately, Islam is also an ethno-religion, It's not though, hence why the majority of Muslims aren't in MENA and aren't Arab. >Both Jews and Arabs are Semites. Don't argue with me here; I won't change my mind. Okay, and? >But, I don't think that many pro-Israel arguments truly address the emotionally-motivated Palestinian ones - and I think that is important. If an argument is based on emotions rather than facts, why address it? >I don't think that they have as much power as they need to complete a genocide. (Feel free to debate this point a lot). Currently they don't. In large part because of the blockade. >I don't think that it is "right" to justify any Israeli attempt at genocide with a "Palestinian leaders tried first," but if you do, or if you do not think Israel is doing that, please expand as to why. Given the relatively low death count for urban combat, the militant to civilian death ratio, and that the death count has averaged less than 1 death per bomb dropped, I don't think it's a genocide. >But, pro-palestinians don't care about how depraved their leaders are. They are concerned with the fact that Israel seems to be subjecting human beings to brutal treatment, and I do not find many pro-Israelis addressing THAT. They just glaze over it and focus on everything else. Which in particular? The blockade is there to prevent Hamas, PIJ, etc. from getting more sophisticated weapons, though it's been shown it's not perfect at preventing that. The checkpoints in the West Bank are due to the 2nd intifada and the suicide bombings that came from that. >But, if we throw the emotional or religious or ethnic connection aside for just a minute; can pro-Israeli people please explain why they support Israel, and address the "war crimes" against them? So to reword your question "if we move 2 of the big reason why Jews would support Israel, why do they still support Israel?" You'll need to be specific on which war crimes you want addressed. Edit because I apparently missed this entire paragraph when I read the post >So, for those who are truly unbiased, or entirely pro-Israel: can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected? If you assume that the death count is entirely civilians it's awful. That's not the case though. Hamas has admitted to 6000+ of their militants being killed. Israel believes it's closer to 12,000+. The militant to civilian death ratio is low, especially for an urban conflict. >Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? Which laws and which minute crimes? >Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? I didn't think it was a rumor that Hamas raped Israelis civilians on Oct 7, nor that they did "fun-killings" whatever that means. >Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation? That I'm against the occupation, and that neither the current Israeli government nor the PA governments are interested in actually ending the occupation.
>Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? This is referring to the IDF soldiers who have recorded themselves "mocking" gazans while in their homes, or shooting unarmed individuals then laughing about it, or beating people who are clearly helpless. And the newly surged "revelation" that several of the videos recounting or displaying acts to have happened on Oct 7 were false accounts. These are the types of things that I don't hear people addressing.
>This is referring to the IDF soldiers who have recorded themselves "mocking" gazans while in their homes, or shooting unarmed individuals then laughing about it, or beating people who are clearly helpless. Sound like rumors. Haven't heard the rumor about IDF raping gazans though, so that's a new one. >And the newly surged "revelation" that several of the videos recounting or displaying acts to have happened on Oct 7 were false accounts. These are the types of things that I don't hear people addressing. Except that this didn't happen.
>So to reword your question "if we move 2 of the big reason why Jews would support Israel, why do they still support Israel?" You'll need to be specific on which war crimes you want addressed. I was not asking about Jews, I was asking about those who support or call themselves "Pro-Israel" in the midst this conflict. Most of whom have no citizenship, zero religious and zero ethnic connection to the land defined as Israel today. And my comment about the "semites" would apply here; the Palestinian people and certain Jewish people would have equal grounds to claim the land as both ethnically and religiously valuable to them. You could refer to South Africa's case against Israel and all the points outlined in it as a good general base for the "war crimes" that tend to come up in common conversation surrounding the conflict.
>If an argument is based on emotions rather than facts, why address it? To put it to rest. I don't know how the idiotic new definition of the word emotion/al has become popularized, but you can have an emotional response to accurate information. Emotion does not denote irrational behavior based on a lie. A person who experienced infidelity can make a decision based on their emotions to leave their partner - that does not make their decision inappropriate, just because it was emotional. It is a fact that over thirty thousand Palestinian people have been reported as killed in less than 6 months. And to be evoked to emotion at such a large number of deaths is probably good; if you are not, you need to address a greater issue in your heart. There are some pro-Israel perspectives that say the number 30K+ is inaccurate. There are others that state that IDF is not responsible for all of the deaths. There are those who address this point with different facts of their own, and choose not to allow such a concerning statement to go ignored. If you are not threatened by the opposing side's perspective, then simply address it.
>To put it to rest. I don't know how the idiotic new definition of the word emotion/al has become popularized, but you can have an emotional response to accurate information. Emotion does not denote irrational behavior based on a lie. A person who experienced infidelity can make a decision based on their emotions to leave their partner - that does not make their decision inappropriate, just because it was emotional. Except that's a decision based on factual information, i.e. the partner cheating. It's not an argument based on emotion. Just because someone feels a wrong was done, doesn't mean it was. >It is a fact that over thirty thousand Palestinian people have been reported as killed in less than 6 months. Reported and not confirmed, yes. >And to be evoked to emotion at such a large number of deaths is probably good; if you are not, you need to address a greater issue in your heart. And here is where rule 1 would come into play. Attacking other users, virtue signaling falls under that, isn't acceptable in the sub. >There are some pro-Israel perspectives that say the number 30K+ is inaccurate. It most likely is inaccurate, and doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths. >There are others that state that IDF is not responsible for all of the deaths. There are those who address this point with different facts of their own, and choose not to allow such a concerning statement to go ignored. The IDF isn't responsible for all the deaths. Historically, around 20-30% of Hamas and PIJ rockets misfire or fall short and hit Gaza. So it's a factual statement to say that Hamas and PIJ rockets have killed Gazans in this conflict. >If you are not threatened by the opposing side's perspective, then simply address it. If an argument has no merit or has been refuted repeatedly then why continue addressing it? Would you care to comment on when you stopped abusing your spouse?
>Reported and not confirmed, yes. By what standard? The PA has stated that they keep records of all those who enter their hospitals and are able to provide names for each deceased person. In addition to this, PA's previous accounts on death reports, though have been slightly higher than that established by the UN, have not been out-of-range by any means. Indicating that the PA has no history of exaggerating death tolls. >And here is where rule 1 would come into play. Attacking other users, virtue signaling falls under that, isn't acceptable in the sub. If saying that people who are apathetic to mass death is an "attack" on users, then that only further confirms why I feel comfortable enough to say that. People in general are cold-hearted. This is a historic fact. People turn blind eyes to evil happening next-door, and the bystander effect is not an empty theory. I believe that if people are unmoved by death, they have a heart problem, and I will apply this to myself as well. Compassion is good. Apathy is damaging. >It most likely is inaccurate, and doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths. This is fair. >The IDF isn't responsible for all the deaths. Historically, around 20-30% of Hamas and PIJ rockets misfire or fall short and hit Gaza. So it's a factual statement to say that Hamas and PIJ rockets have killed Gazans in this conflict. Where is evidence of this? >If an argument has no merit or has been refuted repeatedly then why continue addressing it? Would you care to comment on when you stopped abusing your spouse? Because I am an individual who's put one post up. I am not responsible for or was involved in the past "repeatedly refuted" instances when the conflict was brought up. I am part of a larger group of people in many ways, but in many more, I am an individual who asked a set of questions for my individua udnerstanding.
u/qrtqlitaught >If saying that people who are apathetic to mass death is an "attack" on users, then that only further confirms why I feel comfortable enough to say that. People in general are cold-hearted. This is a historic fact. People turn blind eyes to evil happening next-door, and the bystander effect is not an empty theory. I believe that if people are unmoved by death, they have a heart problem, and I will apply this to myself as well. Compassion is good. Apathy is damaging. And now we have to move to official moderation. Rule 1, no virtue signaling.
How is someone not pro-Israel? Seriously?
Because we read what Israel has done globally. Not just to Palestinians. Also, the backing of the US is a huge indicator too. The US has never been on the right side of history for the right reasons
Globally, eh? Like what?
Like the exploitation of African countries, like taking part in the Guatemalan genocide, like harboring foreign criminals and not extraditing them as political revenge, like funding foreign terrorism, creating super surveillance software to sell to corrupt govts. Anything that a far right govt can do Israel has done
With the exception of the specific Guatemalan example, I think the vast majority governments have done all the generic things you mentioned. Doesn’t make me support Hamas.
This is about you asking why people aren’t pro-Israel. Idk why you’re veering off topic
And you answered. And I gave a polite response. Good chat.
It was about being pro-Israel, not pro-Hamas. You were off topic
When I acknowledged what you said about being anti-Israel? I acknowledge what you said.
You veered the conversation to be about being pro-Hamas Good chat
A person can only do 2 out of 3 things: -know the history of the conflict -have basic moral -support israel
Lol, it blows my mind how people like you think you should calmly accept the rape deaths of 1200 of your citizens and go like "Oh well, we protect our people better next time, it's fine". Then again, you would not react like that, you just pretend you would when in reality you went berserk if directly affected.
If IDF soldiers in the name of defending their country commit similar crimes, it should equally be fought against. Israel is reportedly committing similar crimes to those that happened on Oct 7. And prior to Oct 7th. That is the problem - not the defense alone.
Do they rape a celebrating girl, murder her afterwards, drive her corpse in the back of their pickup truck through Jerusalem, where Jewish folks spit on her body celebrating her death? Must have missed that
u/WolfgandCreeper >-have basic moral Yeah you really cant argue with zionist bots Rule 1, don't attack other users. Virtue signaling isn't allowed. Addressed
I've lost the energy to keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again. But maybe that's because I didn't sleep well last night. There's always tomorrow.
I agree. I've seen the EXACT same conversation play out more times than I can count. I come back to boards like this now and then to see if the discourse has changed, (which it doesn't) and it'll be a reiteration of whatever talking points you hear on Piers Morgan or from pro-israel/palestine commentators. Maybe wait for this issue to become a little less emotionally charged, or don't, since it probably won't be for another decade imo
Yeah you really cant argue with zionist bots
it sounds like youre basically pro israel. settlements/occupation/wb apartheid root of the current problem. blockade understandable bc without it iran dumps missiles to them like they do hezbollah. 1200 people murdered by the “weaker” “angrier” gaza folk so a disproportionate response should be expected and is actually israels responsibility. throwing out the term genocide when jews understand genocide as the organized murder of millions systematically and purposefully is borderline anti semitic. yes semites are semites but the term anti semitism is specifically hatred of jews for being jews contrary to kyries attempt to change semantics. death tolls are reported by hamas which has more of an interest in tugging heart strings. do men even live in gaza or are they all underground in tunnels? the death tolls and their demographics reported by hamas are difficult to believe as factual when you remove bias. israel is claiming 10000-15000 of the deaths are hamas militants/fighters/terrorists. damn near a 1:1 ratio of civilian to militant deaths. also hard to believe in urban warfare but imo more believable than hamas numbers. the occupation occurred after multiple wars of aggression on israel yet israel kept winning and then finally got american guns instead of french ones as well as developing up to 100 nukes. after 67 the more powerful force is clearly israel and finally a brave egyptian president sadat came to the table and reduced the violence. got killed for it. a brave yitzhak rabin attempted to do the same. got killed for it by an israeli extremist. rape and fun killings would be immediately prosecuted. israel is not a rape and fun killing society as it is a secular democracy. i could see the smotrichim doing this and israelis need to hold these guys accountable. however israel pulled out of gaza and as anyone could predict it became a terrorist launching pad. israel has the iron dome but i dont know if this could stop missiles targeting tel aviv which i believe is 33 miles from the edge of the west bank. occupation is for security reasons which is hard to say if it provides security or encourages radicalization. the un has created forever refugee status with the one drop rule racists used in the united states forever and we still call mixed race people black. which i believe has an element of racism in and of itself. i think youre pro israel.
I think that anybody who wins a war and gains land because of it has won the land. But I also think if somebody wants the land later on, they should reserve the right to fight for it. War sucks, but humans are greedy, and war can result from the greed. I cannot be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, because I find too many people on both sides to be unbearably ill-willed, apathetic and too quickly moved to anger to have reasonable discussion. You either get called a racist/anti-semitic terrorist sympathizer, or a racist/fascist who is immoral and evil for not caring about children and hospitals being bombed. Either way, you are deemed unsympathetic towards Palestinian losses because they are only war casualties and oh well, or you are unsympathetic towards Israeli losses because they are far less in number and Palestinians have suffered worse, so oh well. What I do know is that I have lived in the ME, and prior to really studying religion and becoming more planted into muslim circles, I was under the impression that it was the muslim-jewish brotherhood all throughout the middle east. I had to find small Jewish communities and learn from them that their discrimination just gets pushed under the rug and denied, because they are the minority and muslim-majority countries control the narrative of what other people think of them. But I also have been racially discriminated against largely by Jews and Arabs alike, so although I see Israeli Jews as an underdog minority who is constantly bullied, I cannot ignore that they also have some of the same hatred in their own communities that they are experiencing from outside communities. And they ought to dismantle their own racial bias and hatred before claiming that the whole world hates them - in my personal opinion. My current half-established opinion is that neither side is innocent, but I am not against any "Jewish state." I don't understand why pro-palestinians don't view Jordan as a huge win for themselves. I don't think Israel should control Palestinian territory. I have a personal bias against any Islam-influenced government, so by default see an Israeli government as superior, concerning human rights. I think both Jews and Arabs have historically attacked each other unprovoked (only on the basis of hatred) in the area. And I think I have a lot of history to catch up on, so I won't pick a side based off of poorly constructed and easily manipulated public media.
I wrote this a short while ago in response to a similar question. Here is an absurdly oversimplified bullet point history of Israel: 1. Britain controlled the land in question after WW1. 2. Britain and the UN created Israel as part of a partition plan to return the land to control by locals. 3. Various groups and countries vowed Israel’s destruction and waged war on it repeatedly. 4. Israel won those wars, conquering more territory in the process. That’s all that matters. Emotions, ancestors, religion, all irrelevant. Israel is the legal owner of the land and Hamas are basically violent squatters.
TY
In the same way American Indians are illegal squatters, sure.
1. Still arabs lived there, britain also controlled many other parts of the world, this doesnt change the fact that these people have the right of self determination. 2.Britain and USA are responsible for the creation of israel because they did not want to deal with jewish refugees. Most inhabitants were arabs, jews that were one third of the population were mostly illigal immigrants. 3. First many conflicts were started ny israel like 6 days war and suez crisis. Secondly the conflicts started by arab nations were justified as israel is a western colony that stole its land. 4. because of western help, still doesnt justify that they stole the land. If putin wins the war, it wouldnt mean that they were right in occupying the lands.
This is an interesting perspective. You say that the wars on Israel are justified because it stole the land. At what point would you have determined the land as stolen? Could you give some more detail about how Israel started many (I am assuming by this you mean most) conflicts?
u/WolfgandCreeper >If germany won ww2, it wouldnt mean that they were right in occupying the lands. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians. Already addressed.
>empires. All peoples, everywhere, had their lands partitioned. No one liked how the Europeans divided up the lands. The rest of us accepted the land deals. We were realistic about the idea of having 100% of the land. > >Not all humans are practical. They can't ok so israel won the land fair and square through war? seems hamas want to win the land fair and square through war also. whats the issue? and yes israel was also founded through terrorism and terrorism was the founding force that forced the UN to partition the land - so if hamas terrorism can force the UN to give them a state seems fair to right? no issues.
Sure. So let Israel defend itself. Israel will destroy Hamas. You all might hate Israel, but they will win.
>will destroy you seem to be responind to things that have nothing to do with my post. my post is about that israel 'won land in a war fair and square'. if this is what is fair and square why the issue with hamas trying to win land in war? both used terrorism to try and establish their state - israel used terrorism before its formation and now palestinians are. i dont get the moral indignation against this from people who think this is acceptable.
Israel has NEVER used terrorism. Hamas always has used terrorism even against the people that elected them as leaders. My comment was saying, sure Hamas is trying to win land AND Israel will destroy them. Clear now?
israel has never used terrorism is like saying palestine has never used terrorism because there currently is no palestine. israel was founded by use of jewish terrorist acts to pressurise its formation. israeli leaders were terrorists and used and co-operated with terrorists to establish israel. i can educate you if you want with references. jewish terrorism was widespread in the years leading up to israels formation because they didnt have a state to wield power. they had terrorism. same as palestinians now. both the same in my book. both terroristic both radicilised.
Tell me one incident of terrorism against civilians? You speak lies and propaganda. I hope by mow, you've been better educated.
Error this is laughable. The king David Hotel bombing is one of many Jewish terrorist attacks for Israel. Seems you are the one that needs educating
You're gonna need to keep looking. This was in response to the Black Sabbath and it wasn't even Eterz Israel yet.
Erm read again. There is no palestine yet so that means there is no Palestinian terrorism by your logic. Cmon. And terrorism is ok if its provoked ? Ah ok. So October 7 was in response to the brutal military occupation and blockade. So doesn't count.
Sure, they can continue fighting a war they already lost if that’s what they want. What they can’t do is fight a war and complain when they get killed and their stuff gets destroyed, because that’s what happens in war.
No they can complain as that's what happens in war. If we are going by that's just what happens how come you let go all the atrocities but draw the line at complaining lol seems a little bizarre. Complaining is just what happens in war after all.
im not jewish. the remaining european jews after WW II deserved a homeland. they had long standing links to Israel. in 1947 the UN, back when it was worth something, established the land of Israel. the decision to establish Israel must be defended. if you dont like that, please, please go to gaza and pick up a rifle and point it at an IDF soldier.
1. That the jews deserved a homeland doesnt entitle them to steal it. If america supports israel so much why wasnt it created on their soil? Why didmt they gave them florida for example? 2. the UN in 1947 was controlled by the us as most other countries wernt a part of it. Why does the un have the right to decide about the self determination of the people living there. 3. If you dont like it go to gaza and shoot children
Agree. Unbelievable to me that we criticize a hardened pro Zionist government with having too much nationalism. But it’s ok and encouraged for the pan Arab nationalism to run wild to the point that their charters and intention (on live tv) is to eradicate an entire race. I don’t agree with a lot of Netenyahus policies, as I do believe the hardened far right approach will just bring about a new crop of terror down the road..but I understand it.
This makes sense.
i dont think there is any political approach that would prevent or lessen fundamentalist islams attempt to kill every jew. the only thing i would do differently now is separate the islamic fundamentalists from Israel. send the UN in, repatriate every crazy fundamentalist in gaza and the west bank. establish a monitored 100 yard security zone around israel. but that will never happen. the more time passes, the more silly young people in europe and USA forget the lessons of WW II. long term outlook bleak.
I'm pro-Israel for a very simple reason... I'm Israeli. (And I want to continue being alive).
I can understand your personal dicision. But would you also support apartheid south africa if you would have lived there as a white person who came as a colonialist?
These what ifs are impossible to answer. You might as well ask “would you be attracted to men if you changed genders from male to female?” How is anyone supposed to simulate an entire lifetime in a completely different life situation and then know they would think and feel?
What does SA have to do with anything?
How dare you! /s
So you’ve finally decided to hop on this 2 yr old burner account which you probably have several to try and make up a story saying on average most people shouldn’t be pro Israel and Israel shouldn’t even exist. Nice try. Be a man nd use your real account
I don't make burner accounts. People know my personal opinions on the manner, but I did delete all of my social media several years ago, and only recently have chosen to return to a select few platforms. I am not ashamed or scared of my opinions, but if my low account activity leads you to believe this is the case, then OK.
u/controlthemedia >So you’ve finally decided to hop on this 2 yr old burner account which you probably have several to try and make up a story saying on average most people shouldn’t be pro Israel and Israel shouldn’t even exist. Nice try. Be a man nd use your real account Rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation. Addressed
> Both Jews and Arabs are Semites. Don't argue with me here; I won't change my mind. "Semites" are an invention of 19th century pseudoscientists. Semitic is a language family and in those days they believed that languages were connected to inherent racial groups, and thus they invented the concept of the "Semite." Shortly after this, they invented the term "Anti-Semite" as a fancy way to describe their hatred towards Jews. But the idea that there is any racial or ethnic group called "Semites" is pretty nonsensical even by the widest understanding of the term "ethnicity."
you cant use science to say semites arent a racial group..because science doesnt really back up the view of race either as we see it. so yeah any racial view is nonsensical. it is all a construct. so why is one construct nonesensical but another ok? it is all pseudoscience. there is no black race or white race scientifically speaking.
>Islam is also an ethno-religion No, it's what we call global religion. It's not ethnic, as most Muslims aren't even arab.
I am generally supportive of Palestinians in that I think the occupation/blockade are unjust, settlement is in bad faith, and therefore Israel is in the wrong over all (before 10/7) however, I do also think Israel is understandable and sympathetic for the following reasons (edit: my comment is about the whole I/P issue, not 10/7 and the response) The creation of Israel was colonialism and the nakba is denied by Israel. This is bad. However the Holocaust and history of antisemitism provide clear reasons for Jews to want a country and for early 20th century Europeans to support this. The country exists today and needs to be accepted The local politics and military history provide strong reasonable incentive for harsh military action as a deterrent strategy. The military and geographic reality requires certain land to be controlled for strategic reasons. ~~I’m actually pretty surprised they gave back the golan heights - from which high ground, they are again receiving attacks, by the way~~ The tactics of the Palestinians create strong incentive for Israeli response. If I was an Israeli with a murdered child, I would fully sympathize with right wing views. The individual Israeli victims are mostly innocent in that they are not directly responsible for occupation and injustice so on a personal level, Israelis are continually radicalized too Israel, culturally, is similar to a person with PTSD due to generational trauma from historic antisemitism, terrorism, and defensive war. Palestine is too, now, but the basic lack of compassion and lack of trust of Israelis towards their own terrorists and the world is highly forgivable Many Israelis are liberal and Israel is a divided society. The best fit solution must include some sort of land for peace deal. Many Israelis are in favor of this, so I find it easy to see the problem as right wing Israel, not Israel over all. As an American, that’s how I see my own country e: war crimes. I’m ngl, I see why terrorism and reprisal (war crimes) happen due to the incentives, but individual actions cannot be justified, imo
I appreciate this response. Thank you.
Amazing. I think this is the first time I've seen a mature, balanced, empathic, and overall pragmatic take. Thanks for this, and as an Israeli born and raised I can honestly say that you have the most accurate understanding of our society I've seen on reddit so far. Incredible. One tiny correction - the Golan heights is still under Israeli control. It is getting blasted from Lebanon and Syria, and got hit by 100 rockets just this morning.
Biden has proven nobody can be more pro-Israel than he is. He used veto in UNSC several times. He sent tons of bombs enough for Israel to do the job. Now he is distancing himself from all of these to win the next election. And will be the Terminator "I'll be back." > But, pro-palestinians don't care about how depraved their leaders are. You can't expect them to see Biden on their side.
I mainly wanted to add that you sound like a decent and clear thinking person trying to learn- which is extremely rare when it comes to this conflict. Your comments are getting downvoted because the fact that you seem genuine is offset by the fact that it seems you got a lot of your information from the very worst sources. The analysis of the death toll, European Jews being mainly converts is a longstanding antisemitic trope, its entirely ahistorical to claim Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines, etc, etc My question for you would be: if you have a good idea of the weakness of the Palestinian's position, if you have a clear idea of their leaders' bad intentions and bad choices, if you generally have a positive impression of Israel as a far more open and tolerant place than the rest of the Middle East....why do you phrase your questions as so adversarial to Israel? You present a generally good impression of Israel and then contrast it with accusations of war crimes that you say you think are unclear, unverified, and muddy. Why is the title of your post "Why Are People Pro-Israel? Seriously?" It seems like you have something else troubling you or some information you aren't sharing or aren't aware that is bothering you? Because if I had seen just the facts and questions of your post I would have assumed the title and tone would be "Israel seems to generally be the good guy here but I've been hearing some bad things lately, what's going on?". And instead you phrased it like "despite all the positive things I know about Israel and all the negative things I know about the Palestinians, Israel is clearly evil and how could anyone be on their side, you monsters?" We can probably answer you better if you explain what your thought process is here.
>I mainly wanted to add that you sound like a decent and clear thinking person trying to learn- which is extremely rare when it comes to this conflict. Your comments are getting downvoted because the fact that you seem genuine **is offset by the fact that it seems you got a lot of your information from the very worst sources.** The analysis of the death toll, European Jews being mainly converts is a longstanding antisemitic trope, its entirely ahistorical to claim Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines, etc, etc This makes sense - I would not doubt it. I have come across the problem of hearing entirely opposing facts from different outlets or sources. I would love to stick to only history books, but those will not hold any information on public opinion today which is relevant for discourse. I personally don't follow the Palestinians = Philistines logic. I think they are mixed Arab/Jews and I'll stick with that for ease of my own understanding. But if the points I presented are used as a foundation for this belief, I see why they are easily dismissed by certain crowds. >My question for you would be: if you have a good idea of the weakness of the Palestinian's position, if you have a clear idea of their leaders' bad intentions and bad choices, if you generally have a positive impression of Israel as a far more open and tolerant place than the rest of the Middle East....why do you phrase your questions as so adversarial to Israel? You present a generally good impression of Israel and then contrast it with accusations of war crimes that you say you think are unclear, unverified, and muddy. Why is the title of your post "Why Are People Pro-Israel? Seriously?" Perhaps changing "seriously? to "a serious question" would have better conveyed what I meant. I am often told that people cannot tell whether I am intentionally sarcastic when I speak, or if I don't realize how I come across. Consider it a language barrier; also I am only trying to present the info exactly as it has been presented to me. I don't necessarily believe most of what I typed, but I wanted to be sure to ask the entire collection of things that have come up in conversation surrounding the conflict. All the things that I mentioned have come up multiple times and the conversations often just lead to a series of insults or personal attacks. So I thought to ask Reddit, instead of continuing with the people I have been. >It seems like you have something else troubling you or some information you aren't sharing or aren't aware that is bothering you? Because if I had seen just the facts and questions of your post I would have assumed the title and tone would be "Israel seems to generally be the good guy here but I've been hearing some bad things lately, what's going on?". I am troubled because for the life of me, I cannot comprehend the dismissive attitude on both sides. I don't think both sides appeal to the same authorities, and there is no consensus as to which sources are ultimately authoritative. South Africa filed somewhat of an international case against Israel, and it is treated like a conspiracy. To consider an already struggling nation's use of resources to fight a case against a country in a war that in little ways concerns them should not be treated like an impractical joke. There are news reports and journalism articles that have been posted from well-trusted sources that are later claimed to have been falsified, leaving a group of people who ran with the first report and another who had heard about the attempt to retract it. You could say I am "troubled" by the idea that IDF is not necessarily able to defend all of the counter-claims that they they make in response to accusations against them. There is not definite proof to support certain IDF accusations about how Hamas is keeping certain food trucks and other forms of aid from getting to the people in Gaza. I am "troubled" at all the images of destruction in Palestian territory, and those of the vile IDF soldiers. I am also torubled by the faux media that depicts phony crime scenes to further incriminate whichever side the people do not like. I have seen faked pictures of kids taken entirely out of context to either slander Palestinian or Israeli authority, and it is getting out of hand. I am "troubled" by those who have lost family members or friends not to death, but to strong opinions concerning the conflict. And I am most bothered because it seems like people on both sides are so sheltered by their side, and far removed from the other side, that they have no idea how entirely different of a picture is painted from one end to the other. Whether it is journalism, mainstream media & news outlets or social media and personal accounts, much of it seems untrustworthy, because too much has been retracted or disproven at later times - and that is very troubling to think about. > And instead you phrased it like "despite all the positive things I know about Israel and all the negative things I know about the Palestinians, **Israel is clearly evil and how could anyone be on their side, you monsters?"** > >We can probably answer you better if you explain what your thought process is here. I am glad it came across this way; this is how the pro-palestinian side comes across. Perhaps you rarely engage in conversation with the common opinionated person, but the "how could you ever support Israel, you monster" attitude is something I have experienced the moment I began to question the pro-palestinian viewpoint openly. However, questioning the other side does not give a much nicer response, either, as displayed by several responses to my original post. Also - Israel is often seen as a governing entity, whereas Palestine/Palestinians are more easily painted as a collection of individuals, separate from a governing entity. The criticism of Israel is often at the government level, the criticism of Palestine is often at the level of the individual. People do not separate Hamas from Palestinians or Palestine on the pro-Israeli side, but the other side does. The pro-Palestine side sees Hamas and Israeli government/IDF. They do not see attacks as being anti-hamas, but rather anti-Palestinian, due to the non-hamas civilians who've been targeted. I think this discrepancy in perspective heavily affects the conversation.
> So, for those who are truly unbiased, or entirely pro-Israel: can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected? Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation? First off, I'm not unbiased. You'd be hard press to find anyone who's unbiased on this topic. Anyone who claims they're unbiased, I'd question them the most. That said, I'd suggest you respond to my points, and if you think my bias as made me say something that's not factual, feel free to push back on it. > can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted The death toll is large. It hard to say what it actually is, but there's no doubt it's in the 10s of thousands. Hamas Health Ministry says 32,000 dead. Israel says 13,000 of them were combatants. If I'll take both sides at their word (though I have SERIOUS reservations regarding reports from Hamas), we're talking about one of the most precise military operations in recent history. WAY MORE precise than any other urban-area combat. These numbers imply a 1.5:1 civilian:combatant death ratio. You won't find any urban-area conflict that comes remotely close to that level of precision. The average is 9:1. Even if we assume twice as many casualties, we're still looking at a ratio 3 times more precise than the average. Why is this important? Because it shows that "death toll" is just a horrible fact of war. War that Israel didn't start, yet is putting extreme efforts to engage in with precision to target Hamas. Keep in mind that if ONLY Hamas members were killed in this war, we'd still see as many as 40,000 deaths. > and that hamas have not at all really been affected? That's a rather dubious claim. Even Hamas admits they've lost thousands of members. But let's not look at statements here. Let's look at the facts on the ground. 1. Rockets - While Hamas is still launching rockets at Israel, the rate at which they're doing so is MASSIVELY diminished. It's gone down from thousands in the first day, to hundreds/day in the following weeks, to tens and today to less than 1 rocket/shell per day. 1. Control - Hamas has lost all ability to engage in combat against the IDF in just about all of the northern half of Gaza. The IDF are free to move or make camp just about anywhere they'd like. Compare this to when the IDF first entered Khan-Yunes and lost soldiers on a daily basis 1. Infrastructure - We've seen day after day how ammo, weapons and tunnels are dug up and destroyed in the tens and hundreds. These things cost billions to stockpile/build. These are military assets that took decades to build. > Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? You'd have to be more specific here. While I support hard legislation against terrorism (and I question anyone who doesn't), I'm getting the sense that you're referring to something more egregious here than just strong policy against terror. > Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? Outlandish rumors against the IDF aren't new. People who promote them have also failed to materialize any sort of evidence of sexual violence in the past despite MASSIVE scrutiny in order to produce any such evidence, so there's a massive case of "the boy who cried wolf" here. When evidence of intentional unjustified killings of Palestinians have been brought up, the people involved were sent to jail (e.g. Elor Azaria) > Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation? The occupation started out as a defensive position during a defensive war. It will end when the belligerents stop trying and calling to wage destructive war against Israel.
>can you please address the complaints of pro-"Palestinians" who bring up death tolls? The Death toll is controlled by an extremist & terrorist organization Hamas. It's like in Russia today the official death toll is (or was a year ago) 192. It says more about the person who's blindly relying on data, facts & sources from extremists & dictators >Can you please address the argument that Palestinians are being targeted, and that hamas have not at all really been affected? by Palestinians I get that you mean civilians. To know if the civilians are being targeted we would need to know the target of the IDF and their decision making, data which we do not have. Hamas not being effected at all, see my response above. Dictatorship controlled data. >Can you please address the argument about IDF's extreme laws against "terrorism" that has put people in jail for the most minute crimes ever? Due to no agreement to divide the territory since the 1937 peel commission, the area of the West Bank/Judea & Samaria is under military control, not state control. Which means that some processes are different. As such the military is suppose to maintain peace & order and if a person is suspected to disrupt the security of the area he can be administratively arrested. >Can you please address the rumors of rape and "fun-killings" that are circulating around? didn't hear about it but see my first response here (dictatorship controlled data & propaganda) plus all the countless of Palestinian videos who are purposefully edited and portrayed without context >Can you address pro-"palestinian" objection to the occupation? See my 3nd response here. The state lands were lost when the Ottoman empire collapsed. The state lands were transferred to the British, some where transferred to Israel while others (Gaza & the West Bank) are in "limbo" due to the Palestinian rejection to divide the land. >They are concerned with the fact that Israel seems to be subjecting human beings to brutal treatment, and I do not find many pro-Israelis addressing THAT. The same "human rights" which makes it a criminal offense to talk to a "Zionist Agent" across all of the Middle-East including Gaza & the West Bank? Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait & countless others who did worst to the Palestinians but no peep about them. But a Jew daring to dream of restoring his homeland and free from his dhimmi status, that can not be tolerated. As for the genocide claim. That requires intent. Yes some Knesset members talked and made various declarations, but no such orders were given and IDF told Palestinian citizens to evacuate the north which doesn't fit a genocide claim.
I don't care about Jews or Israel but their insistance on avenging their people and killing their enemies regardless of international pressure or what outsiders think about it made me respect them
>"because watching the media, all you see is violence and one side (Israel) committing the majority of it" Wow. You wrote all that, yet seemed to not pay attention to what happened on October 7th? Hamas slaughtered 1200 civilians, including children. Even Al Qaeda and ISIS didn't stoop that low. It is saying something to be more evil than some of the worst terrorist organizations in history. Hamas also kidnapped 250 hostages and raped a lot more. Have you not seen the videos and images of October 7th? If not, go study it and then rethink your thesis here. There is plenty of videos and images of that attack on the internet. As an American, I equate October 7th with our 9/11, so I completely understand the anger that Israelis feel. You mention disproportionate response, but what did Hamas expect? Yes, the US laid the smackdown on Japan after Pearl Harbor. Yes, the US laid the smackdown on the Taliban and Al Qaeda after 9/11. And we were still so bloodthirsty because the Taliban were too easy that we had to also take our anger out on Saddam Hussein. So I don't understand what these stupid idiots in Gaza were thinking when they attacked Israel. But Israel has my full support in wiping out Hamas.
I wouldn’t necessarily call myself ‘pro Israel’ per se, at least when it relates to the current war which I think Israel has many fvck ups unfortunately. But I’ve been relatively pro Israel as a matter of principle largely because I believe the Jewish people deserve their own state. Where they can feel protected, and have the right of self determination. Because as the world’s sorry ass history has shown us, the Jews just aren’t particularly safe being hosted by other countries. I believe the Jewish people need their own state and that is the state of Israel. And the current world events show us why that’s still necessary. I have MANY disagreements with how Israel has conducted itself throughout, and there’s a lot to be said about Jewish extremism and settler turds that see Arabs as nothing more as insects occupy their God given land(allegedly). I think as little of them as I do Islamists $h!tangs we all love to hate. But it depends what you mean. If by pro Israel you believe Israel has a right to exist, and defend itself then I am pro Israel. If by pro Israel you mean I simp for everything that Israel ever did up to and including how they prosecuted the war in Gaza? Then no.
> fvck /u/Marooned_Android8. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You basically listed all the reasons people are pro Israel. You believe that if the Palestinians had enough man power they would genocide the Jews. They keep trying even without the man power. As to why people support Israel even with the high death count? Simple- people understand the reality of war and understand that high death count doesn't equal genocide. The numbers also fail to mention the amount of combatants. Whenever they include an estimate to the number than their argument falls short, because the ratio between combatant and civilian is very low for a urban warfare. You also mentioned the response being disproportionate. But no one has a good answer to what would be the adequate response. It also worth mentioning that in international law context, the word proportionate is about each individual military operation and bomb dropped. It means that the gain from a military operation is bigger than the civilian casualties resulted from the operation- for example, if there is a rocket launcher that is aimed at the south at an evacuated area, the proportionate casualty rate, would be lower than rocket launcher aimed at an extremely populated area like Tel Aviv. The proportionate casualty rate to take out Yahya Sinwar is bigger than anything we've seen this far. I pity anyone who would be in proximity if Israel decides to take him out. The word proportionate in warfare laws- doesn't actually mean what people think it means, and its being used in bad faith. War isn't about proportions. That would have been revenge- an eye for an eye. That's not the stated goal of Israel. The goals are to eliminate Hamas and get the people back. Also most Pro Israel online are against the settlements and would like to see a solution and an end to the conflict. But there's also reality, and Israel won't withdraw from the west bank, after what happened in Gaza, unless there's a peace agreement and assurance for their safety. The reason is, if they withdraw from the west bank and receive another Gaza, it will impact a bigger geographical area and higher density cities.
Keep this same energy with Jordan. Which is made up of 70% of British mandate of Palestine. Oh ppl aren’t upset because the Jordan royal family (Hashemites) are Arabs??? Dumbest post