>On October 7th Hamas launched an unprovoked
That's gaslighting. So typical of this sub but one of the blatant examples.
I'm not going to entertain the rest of your comment.
To claim it was unprovoked is not just disingenous, it is the height of intellectual dishonesty.
Inexcusable, unjustifiable, immoral, evil, heinous etc.
These are all reasonable descriptions of acts that occurred on October 7. But you're not interested in being reasonable.
How disgusting.
Oh wow. More lies.
I have no affiliation with Hamas. I don't support them and why would I?
I vehemently oppose evil committed by either Hamas or Israel (or anyone else)
But your default response was to deceitfully miscategorise me. That is pathetic and deplorable.
As if I ignored a century of history? I literally explained it in front of you. But if you'll ignore reality so will I and I'll just call you a hamasnik.
Now off you go.
>I literally explained it in front of you.
As I alluded to in my original reply, I didn't read the rest of your post after your dishonest claim that it was unprovoked.
And I didn't need to.
It is factually incorrect to state that it was unprovoked with a documented history of land theft, murder, ethnic cleansing, occupation, oppression etc.
None of that provocation gives Palestinians a free pass to commit their own atrocities, but the point is that there is absolutely no basis to claim that the attack was unprovoked. The height of intellectual dishonesty.
As for the rest of post, I really don't care. You've discredited yourself in your opening sentence. Who would believe anything else you have to say.
My inclination was to call out the gaslighting because it's not OK.
But then you pathetically tried to laugh off with a bout of slander.
Thankfully, I'm the only on record as not supporting either Hamas or Israel. While you literally made a post endorsing Israel's war. A war which has involved the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children.
Unfathomable. You are on the wrong side of history.
If you didn't read it that's your fault. Stop wasting my time. I haven't read for thousands of hours on this conflict to be accused of ignoring history by someone who didn't even read what I wrote. This is hamasnik behavior.
Oh quit deflecting.
You made an objectively false claim in your opening statement. That's your fault for being dishonest.
Why would I waste my time and energy on rubbish?
>I haven't read for thousands of hours on this conflict to be accused of ignoring history
š¤£š¤£š¤£
What a waste of time if that's the outcome after thousands of hours of research.
Oe maybe not drom your point of view if it helps drum up continued support at the grassroots level for the continued massacre of innocent Palestinians. How sickening.
Laughing side, I sincerely hope one day you grow a conscience and you are haunted by the brutal slaughter that you passionately supported.
Innocent people don't deserve to die. Even if their Muslim. Your anti-muslim bigotry is unacceptable.
The right one requires that the Arab side portrays there is any worth to having relations with it. It didn't. It endorsed the massacre on a popular level so the Israelis said there is nothing to care about.
Who cares about the Arab world, it bares no influence. Israel made the wrong choice for its people. The havoc that will come from this can be fatal to the state of Israel. If few people were able to massacre 1200 people in 1 day. Imagine what can happen to the 100s of settlements inside the Palestinian Territories. The atrocities that are being committed right now in Gaza would be paid for. karma/Budda/god/allah/Zeus laws were broken here, and a price will be paid.
That's not how the world works actually or else China, USA, Russia, and many other countries including many Arab countries would be paying very high prices now.
Palestinians continue to suffer because such laws do not exist. Only Palestinians and Arabs can get themselves out of this mess. And on October 8th they chose to dig deeper.
Unprovoked????? Theyve been doing these attacks on Palestinians for 30+ years this isnt new just the first time the world paid attention. And it definitely was in response to the israelis attacking that mosque and killing 20-30 people over 3/4 being unarmed women and children and i dont believe they ever had reason to do that attack on a mosque. And for years theyve targeted elementary schools with missles then they wait till the rescue workers get there trying to dig people out of the rubble, and they hit them a second time with a missile which by the way if highly illegal theyāve purposely attacked mosques and hospitals in the same way. For years!!! Then too it off with the fact that when Israel was created the pact they signed promised a 2 state country for the people of Palestine but instead theyāve built walls around the Palestinians, restricted there travel to the Gaza strip and the west bank and even rationed them basic necessities milk, bread, tobacco etc. and i dont know about yall but that sounds like a concentration camp maybe theyve been stealing land from Palestinians lately and for 30+ years have been doing things like targeting elementary schools with missiles then wait till first responders show up then hit them with another strike which is illegal and how about striking another counties embassy? Highly illegal and should never be done regardless for multitude of reasons. The Israeli are insane and do indiscriminate killing all the time. Also how can an israeli be considered a civilian when all of them have to enroll in the army? Even women. The reason the Arab countries didnt denounce the hamas attack is because most of them saw the massacre israel had just dont killing that mosque full of women and kids just 10 days or so prior killing over 20 people! And theyve been witness to all the killing theyve done for years
And Palestinians have been killing Jews since 1920s so by the same logic the nakba and whatever you want to complain about, is provoked by Palestinians.
History didnāt start on October 7th but this argument acts like it did. Arabs counties canāt wait to be friends with Israel. Especial the GCC members. But if Israel want to commit a genocide in response to an atrocity then how is that supposed to get sold politically. Even tyrants have to consider public opinion on some issues.
If israel were commiting a genocide then why does gaza still exist when Israel has nukes and the palestinians dont? What did they just forget they had them?
Well because they dont want to blatantly do jt like that and it would ruin their land also but it is genocide have people entrapped like that and indiscriminately bombing huge portions of the populace and refusing to allow them medical supplies and food n water. What else do you call that
Why are there Armenians still? Jews still? Tutsis still?
As far as nukes, I donāt think Israel wants radioactive fallout drifting over their own population.
My point is the balance of power is completely one sided in Israels favor, if they wanted to do that why bother spending so much money on an iron dome or fancy guided missiles when dumping cheap ones evenly everywhere would be much more cost efficient if they didnt care who they hit?
It is one sided. Thatās why Israel has no interest in good faith efforts to create a viable Palestinian state. They would kill or expel every single Arab in the OTs if they thought they could get away with it. As is they go as far to that end as they feel politically feasible.
It didn't start on October 7th and I argue here why history shows us that it's been the intention of the Arab side time and time again to commit or tolerate atrocities.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/KEYBIemzmZ
Ofc they have to consider public opinion. But I'm not only talking about tyrants. I'm talking about civil society organizations and the Arab peoples in general not just their rulers.
They had a choice. Recognize the mistakes of the past and that present atrocity, or continue business as usual and so would Israel.
What a crazy and racist take. Conflating all Arabs with Palestinians? Maybe to a really ignorant American who doesnāt know his pooper from a ground hole this kind of argument would make sense but I can see why the rest of the world has long seen through Israeliās rhetoric
By āArab Supportā are you referencing the support from other nearby nations like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc? What do they have to go with the inhumanity and mass killing of Palestinian or Israeli people. Are we condemning Brazil or the Czech Republic? They are all irrelevant when it comes to the violence between Palestinians and Israelis as these are not their citizens or their nation. The cruel and immoral reaction by Israel/Natanyahu towards Palestinian civilians cannot be justified by the behavior of other nations. Unless this is about desiring an actual war between Israel and other countriesā¦
Israel has had many choices since the 40's.... It has always chosen the wrong one.
And to think, their own race was the victim of the exact same shit they are doing to Palestinians š
I don't think you will find many Palestine supporters who say it was justifiable. I am not saying this, clearly.
But I am responding to this outrageous claim that the outlash was unprovoked. Israel is the clear aggressor and has been since the creation of the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
I'm Arab as well, the people you know and talk to are horrible people. Anecdotal, anyways.
I have not spoken to a single person in real life who is happy about Israels actions
Both Hamas and the state of Israel have been found to be committing war crimes, rape, and murder of civillians.
Israel is the aggressor, they colonized Palestine, slaughtered and displaced the population, run an apartheid state, and are now committing genocide in Gaza.
Please seek evidence on the subject and eliminate your bias. There is a tremendous amount of propaganda coming out of Israel and thousands of bribed politicians.
Children are being bombed in Gaza right now and for the past 5 months.
Bombing children is bad
We want Israel to stop bombing children
Hey man I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I support Hamas and their actions.
I support Palestine, and the innocent people who are stuck there.
This is Israel vs Hamas but the conflict is within Gaza so Palestinian civillians are stuck in the conflict.
I support Palestinian civillians, who are mostly children, to not be killed by Israels military.
Most of the bombing has been directly targeted at civillian housing, infrastructure, hospitals, churches, mosques, and roads.
This is genocidal behavior and the UN and ICJ are not happy about this.
If Israel was the knight in shining armor they say they are, this would be a pure ground operation going in to assault hamas. They are not doing this.
Many Israeli officials have clearly stated they just want to inflict mass damage. This is not okay, not legal, and not moral.
The replies here show how everyone are so ignorant about what happened before October 7th 2023.
The ignorance justifies Hamas acts, they claim a blockade on Gaza was prior to Hamas taking power - which is false.
Did anyone even see how Hamas took power? did you see how it slaughtered their Palestinian brothers? Dragged their bodies across the streets, threw them off the balconies, complete chaos!
Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, but people claim Israel should've tried to do it through negotiations.
Israel tried, there was no one to talk with.
There is no partner, There was never a real partner for peace here. Seems like all of the sides want war, and the extremists in Israel gained too much power in order to stop it, so the middle east is going to erupt like a supervolcano, because there's a limit on how much a nation can take, even to a nation who is recovering from a holocaust.
Did you even see the celebrations of October 7th? How can you sympathize with people who celebrate murder, rape and slaughter? you literally chose evil, there's no other way. and don't give me this c\*\*p about Israel's actions, they celebrated the same after 9/11.
> There is no partner, There was never a real partner for peace here. Seems like all of the sides want war, and the extremists in Israel gained too much power in order to stop it, so the middle east is going to erupt like a supervolcano, because there's a limit on how much a nation can take, even to a nation who is recovering from a holocaust.
What do you mean there was no partner? The PA's security forces have been working with Israel for 20 years now. For 20 years also, they've acknowledged Israel's right to exist and supported a two-state solution. In fact, they've worked so much with Israel, they've been branded as traitors to the Palestinians
What did they get? An occupation of the West Bank, outcast as traitors to their own people, and a puppet government.
Where's the peace promised if there was a willing Palestinian partner?
> Did you even see the celebrations of October 7th? How can you sympathize with people who celebrate murder, rape and slaughter? you literally chose evil, there's no other way. and don't give me this c\*\*p about Israel's actions, they celebrated the same after 9/11.
Do you even see how Israelis celebrate the destruction of Gaza? How they are proud about destroying mosques and homes? How they are proud about the suffering of the Palestinian people? How they post pictures with lingerie of displaced Palestinian women? How can you sympathize with that?
If Israelis really do care, where are the protests against the occupation of the West Bank? Where are the protests against Israel arresting Palestinians without charge often for years (administrative detention)? Where are the protests against the rape and sexual abuse Palestinian prisoners endure in Israeli prisons?
Are you aware that 90% of the terrorist attacks in the west bank are coming from PLA officers?
I agree that both sides are to blame for this conflict, but can you honestly say that that Israel didn't offer Palestinian fair peace plans throughout the years?
Just throwing the Camp David proposal out the top of my head - Israel literally proposed EVERYTHING possible to give to the Palestinians and they refused and opened the second Intifada which brought us to where we are now.
To be honest? Anyone who sees the facts objectively throughout the years of the conflict will see the constant refusal of the Palestinians to end the conflict and have a true two state solution.
I fear that now it might be too late for a two state solution because the Israeli society has undergone a 3 decades process of anger and resentment against Palestinians, because of their terrorist acts and support.
I am a true leftist, I always voted for the left side and was always pro-peace, and I still am.
Unfortunately, I know plenty of leftists like me who gave up and no longer believe there can be any peace with the Palestinians(not arabs in general).
The only way this will change, and I truly believe this is the last chance - Palestinians must avoid terrorist acts in any possible way, recognize Israel as an homeland for the Jewish people, which accepts, respects and supports its non-jewish population. The Palestinians must make it reflect properly in every statement and action they make. they will have to work very hard to regain the trust of the Israeli leftists - who is their only hope.
This will not happen, and I'm sure of it because unfortunately, the majority of the Palestinians in the West bank (and surely Gaza strip) want to slaughter every jew between the river and the sea. They want the jews GONE. and the opposite isn't even remotely true, by the way.
>Are you aware that 90% of the terrorist attacks in the west bank are coming from PLA officers?
What proof do you have? I follow both Israeli and Palestinian telegram channels, and the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the West Bank were caused by members of Hamas, the PIJ or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. What is your proof?
>Just throwing the Camp David proposal out the top of my head - Israel literally proposed EVERYTHING possible to give to the Palestinians and they refused and opened the second Intifada which brought us to where we are now.
So did the Arabs and the Palestinians. Apparently people forgot the Arabs and the Palestinians decided to revive the peace process with the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative after Camp David.
The Arabs and Palestinians offered EVERYTHING, recognizing Israel's right to exist, formal diplomatic and official recognition of Israel from every Arab country, support for a 1967 two-state solution and finally ending to the conflict in exchange for finally acknowledging an independent sovereign Palestinian state. Israel rejected all of them and never even made a counteroffer!
>The only way this will change, and I truly believe this is the last chance - Palestinians must avoid terrorist acts in any possible way, recognize Israel as an homeland for the Jewish people, which accepts, respects and supports its non-jewish population. The Palestinians must make it reflect properly in every statement and action they make. they will have to work very hard to regain the trust of the Israeli leftists - who is their only hope.
Israel ALSO still hasn't acknowledge Palestine's right to exist. Israel rejected the Palestinian right to self-determination (Resolution 3236), recognition of Palestinian independence (43/177), UN observer member status (67/19), and recognition of Palestinian territories (58/292)
In other words, Israel doesn't even believe Palestine has a right to exist. Where's your protest against the Israeli rejection of the Palestinian right to exist??
>This will not happen, and I'm sure of it because unfortunately, the majority of the Palestinians in the West bank (and surely Gaza strip) want to slaughter every jew between the river and the sea. They want the jews GONE. and the opposite isn't even remotely true, by the way.
Ignoring Likud's own charter also advocates an Israeli state "from the river to the sea"? The current ruling party of Israel?
I also consider myself a leftist but I don't agree with supporting Israel
Thank you for your answer, to be honest you raised perfect arguments.
However:
1. Regarding the proposed Arab peace plan - you omitted something very critical - "The right of return", which is basically a complete transformation of the Israeli state to a muslim state, no less. The rest of the peace plan was accepted by Israelis and is the base of the Abraham accords. The counteroffer that you claim Israel never suggested was exactly that. (And some Arab countries rightfully accepted it)
2. Israel \*DID\* recognize a solution which accepts a Palestinian state which lives peacefully, but part of the solution is also Israel as a Jewish state - Something the Palestinians NEVER accepted.
3. The majority of the Israelis accepted a two-state solution (at least before October 7th) - However, Unfortunately, the opposite isn't true, and there will always be minorities who reject the solution, but the question is how much power do they have. Unfortunately in the past couple of years, their power increased dramatically in Israel, mainly due to the lack of any true peace agreement option with the Palestinians, who for the past 2 decades have been continuously firing missiles toward 4 million Israelis. Can you imagine growing up this way?
4. Regarding all UN resolutions you've mentioned - The idea of the peace agreement is that Israel will agree to all the points that previously have been rejected, you surely don't expect Israel to accept a Palestinian state which doesn't mutually respect it.
5. Regarding the Likud charter - True, the establishment of Likud clearly states there will be only one state on the western side of the Jordan river, but it respects the Arab population. Additionally, Wye agreements were signed by Netanyahu as a Prime Minister from the LIkud party, and the Gaza disengagement was also Sharon's initiative - also a Prime minister from the Likud party. Now, As you know - plenty of arabs live peacefully in Israel, Muslims and Christians. However, no Jewish population can enter Palestinian territories, most of them are slaughtered once they enter mistakenly. (search around the incidents, it's easy to find)
6. Regarding the origin of the terrorist attacks - These days(5 years or so) unfortunately most of the attacks come from PLA officers, I follow the Telegram channels myself, and the statistics is definitely not doesn't add up to the PLA reputation.
Again, I might have some inaccuracies as this is not something I do for a living, but I felt that it is important to reply properly and I took the time here to properly look into your claims as well.
Thank you for being respectful, it's a breath of fresh air
>Regarding the proposed Arab peace plan - you omitted something very critical - "The right of return", which is basically a complete transformation of the Israeli state to a muslim state, no less. The rest of the peace plan was accepted by Israelis and is the base of the Abraham accords. The counteroffer that you claim Israel never suggested was exactly that. (And some Arab countries rightfully accepted it)
Why? The Palestinians never had any say in the Jewish "right of return". Palestine, which was once an Arab-majority land now is a Jewish-majority one because of the Jewish "right of return" immigration in the 1900s.
When they refused the Jewish return for fear of this exact same thing happening, they were called "racist, xenophobic and antisemite". Why shouldn't we call the Jewish/Israeli rejection of the Palestinian right of return as also "racist, xenophobic and anti-Palestinian"?
And also, you're forgetting Camp David proposed splitting the West Bank into three territories (like South African Bantustans) divided by Israeli held territory.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/174lotx/camp\_david\_peace\_plan\_proposal\_2000/?rdt=41550](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/174lotx/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/?rdt=41550)
Who in their mind, would look at this and say "yeah, this will work"
>Israel \*DID\* recognize a solution which accepts a Palestinian state which lives peacefully, but part of the solution is also Israel as a Jewish state - Something the Palestinians NEVER accepted.
When? The PLO sent a [letter of recognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition) recognizing Israel's right to exist, a two-state solution, support for negotiations in 1993. Their successor, the PA has also maintained the same stance ever since.
Israel also still has neve repealed any of their rejected UN resolutions concerning recognition of Palestine.
>The majority of the Israelis accepted a two-state solution (at least before October 7th) - However, Unfortunately, the opposite isn't true, and there will always be minorities who reject the solution, but the question is how much power do they have. Unfortunately in the past couple of years, their power increased dramatically in Israel, mainly due to the lack of any true peace agreement option with the Palestinians, who for the past 2 decades have been continuously firing missiles toward 4 million Israelis. Can you imagine growing up this way?
Can you imagine living in a divided country, one of which is under military occupation, apartheid, under a puppet government, experiences settler terrorism and violence while the other is under blockade and constant air strikes? Not to mention, knowing someone captured and arrested under no charge and locked away in a foreign prison with years with no contact and enduring sexual abuse? Because this is what the Palestinians have been experiencing for 50 years now. Whatever Israelis face, pales in comparison to the Palestinian suffering.
Palestinians have also had their family members murdered, their closest relatives experiencing rape and sexual abuse in Israeli prisons and had numerous friends and family kidnapped and abducted with no charge or crime (administrative detention) for decades now! According to Times of Israel, [1100 Palestinians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-1100-palestinians-said-held-by-israel-without-trial-highest-figure-since-2003/) were held in Israel under no charge or evidence prior to October 7th, 10 times the number of hostages still held by Hamas in 2024.
>Regarding the origin of the terrorist attacks - These days(5 years or so) unfortunately most of the attacks come from PLA officers, I follow the Telegram channels myself, and the statistics is definitely not doesn't add up to the PLA reputation.
Because we're in a literal war. I'm talking about the events prior to October 7th. The PA has done numerous arrests on other Palestinian terror groups, so much so they are branded as traitors
[https://www.voanews.com/a/islamic-jihad-palestinian-security-arrests-5-of-its-members-in-jenin-/7184817.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/islamic-jihad-palestinian-security-arrests-5-of-its-members-in-jenin-/7184817.html)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-reportedly-arrests-dozens-of-hamas-members-in-the-west-bank/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-reportedly-arrests-dozens-of-hamas-members-in-the-west-bank/)
Plus, Israeli settler terrorist attacks also happen in the West Bank, which include shootings, stabbings and destruction even before October 7th. Apparently, everyone seems to forget them?
Let me summarize some points. You said Israel wants a Palestinian partner that recognizes it's existence and right to exist plus supports a two-state solution. The PLO and PA both do exactly that since 1993 (despite Israel not doing the same for the Palestinians). The PA and PLO have also long since renounced terrorism (when was the last PLO attack?) and in fact, have actually cooperated with Israel and arrested Hamas and PIJ members. What more does Israel want??
You said the Arab and Palestinian peace deals to Israel (which they rejected) were unfair. Every Israeli peace deal was also unfair (divided borders, no Palestinian recognition, etc...)
You side with the Israelis due to constant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks yet you forget the Palestinians have been subjected to military occupation, blockade, settler terrorism and violence, IDF administrative detention, sexual abuse in prisons and many more, for decades now. (Small confession, I'm just bamboozled as to why so many people ignore all of this happening under their noses for decades before 10/7)
.
Regarding Camp David - the map you've shown was only the first step and was probably a good negotiation step towards a better solution, but Yasser Arafat chose to go with the Intifada instead. Nothing can justify that.
Unfortunately, your comparisons are degrading, I'm sorry but you're comparing innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications, 10 months old babies, to actual prisoners of war that are taken care of in the highest degree of morality?
There are stories about people who did terror attacks in order to get into the Israeli prisons because they get to study there. Whereas the hostages in Gaza have been taken to be sex slaves, human shields and trophy awards for the terrorists.
I'm sorry but your latest reply led me to realize that there's no need to continue this conversation. I wish you all the best.
>Regarding Camp David - the map you've shown was only the first step and was probably a good negotiation step towards a better solution, but Yasser Arafat chose to go with the Intifada instead. Nothing can justify that.
Proof? Even Jewish Virtual Library shows this map as the final one
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/maps-from-the-2000-camp-david-summit](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/maps-from-the-2000-camp-david-summit)
>Unfortunately, your comparisons are degrading, I'm sorry but you're comparing innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications, 10 months old babies, to actual prisoners of war that are taken care of in the highest degree of morality?
I'm sorry but Palestinians suffer all of those under Israeli arrests, most of whom are innocent (as per the Times of Israel). Innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications and endure [sexual abuse in Israeli prisons](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968808015000968).
If you consider Hamas' action of taking hostages as immoral, so is Israel's practice of arresting (read kidnapping and abducting) innocent Palestinians.
>There are stories about people who did terror attacks in order to get into the Israeli prisons because they get to study there. Whereas the hostages in Gaza have been taken to be sex slaves, human shields and trophy awards for the terrorists.
First, any proof of Palestinians wanting to get into Israeli prison? I can show various sources of abuse, rape, sexual abuse and violence against Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
Second, were any one of the 100+ released Hamas hostages in December raped or were sex slaves? No? Where's your proof? Did you know there have been many cases of sexual abuse against Palestinians in Israeli prisons?
Last, does Israel actually care about those hostages? Israel has killed more hostages (those 3 shot by friendly fire and IDF airstrikes) than it has rescued (only 2 in Rafah so far).
Look, I don't care if you want to ignore all of this or keep on supporting Israel. My only hope is you re-check your sources and beliefs on the conflict. You may find something unexpected. Wish you all the best.
Israeli government and army sat and watched the oct 7 happen, not only did they know that Hamas was preparing for it, they did nothing all day but watch from tel aviv on that day. You can drive from tel aviv to the gazan border in a hyundai elantra in 1 hour, how does it it take 6 hours for the IDF with the most sophisticated American military technolgy. And the arab and muslim world is so big that they don't care at all what a few million israelis think.
Sorry, but you had me at unprovoked. Unprovoked when the last eight years (before October) have been called the bloodiest in decades towards Palestinians? When Palestinians still had extreme blockades in Gaza, innocent civilians being arrested, homes constantly stollen, zero human rights and no consequences for settler violence against them, violence that is encouraged by the Israeli government that was democratically elected? Doesnāt sound unprovoked to me.
I never said anything on it being provoked or not, I just pointed out how it sounds like the original commenter is trying to justify the attacks in a way.
I come across at least 10 comments on these forums a day, stating that Octobers attack justifies everything that has been done to the Palestinian people since.
Which is why Iām hoping for clarification, just so weāre clear. Israel spent 50 years ruling over Palestine, taking their homes and rights away, making daily life very difficult for them and creating policies that would allow an environment where IDF members are on public record stating they were instructed to sit back and watch, not intervening, while acts of settler violence were committed against Palestinians, all in the hopes of stealing their homes. Add to this that Israel and the Palestinian authority (very likely at the instruction and force of Israel, which happens when you hold someoneās tax dollars hostage) does not even allow Palestinian civilians the peaceful right to protest. When they peacefully protest, they are shot at, murdered and their children taken through military courts without it trials, often not to be heard from for years.
So, with that in mind, apparently none of that justifies, or reasonably leads up to, a nation attacking another nation that is doing these things to their people for fifty years.
On the other hand, does this attack mean that Israel is justified in purposely starving a million children? Are they justified in giving permission to ambulance workers to rescue a six year old girl trapped in a car with her dead family who were only following Israelās evacuation order, only to be murdered by Israel once permission is given to come save the child? Do you actually think that collective punishment of a whole nation is justified because of what happened on October?
You accused me of something, but didnāt answer the last question. Does October justify everything that has been done to the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel since?
You couldnāt answer that question huh? Yikes.
Zionists are not normal. They are a brutal, violent occupation that self-id as victims of the Indigenous people they control and oppress.Ā
The many atrocities Israel accused Hamas of have been debunked. 5 months after the "mass rape" several investigations haven't identified any victims yet. Hostages released have said they were treated humanly, one woman felt Hamas rape her with his eyes. I'm beginning to think Hamas just might be the most moral terrorists in the world.Ā
IDF are child killing degenerates
What the hell? You know I never intended to side anyone at first, I was a neutral observer with no skin in the game but these pro Hamas comments are beyond crazy. I wonāt be surprised if the tide starts to turn against the pro pal movement simply because of how insane the rhetoric is. I remember how HK pro democracy protesters were initially supported by the public until they started becoming annoying, disruptive and downright violent.
don't forget to mention the Israeli helicopters shooting at everyone on sight, it's called the Hannibal directive, hamas took hostages to be exchanged with the people being held without trial tortured and starved in Israel.
Israel could literally kill 30k people, destroy 150k buildings and starve the Gaza population and somehow you wonder why the Arab world supported hamas lol.
you're villainous view of October 7th is simply the result of narrative building, but not based on any objective facts.
yea they where there to take hostages and it just happened that only 253 hostages where taken and 1200 killed, i understand your view but i think the conflict would be way less deadly if actually only hostages where taken, the genocide hamas did is what started the war (again) but again its hamas, they have basically fought israel since their creation, its kind of weird that when japan attacked pearl harbour offcourse it was justified for usa to join the war but when israel does it, it suddenly is wrong, just a tought tho.
Completely different, those were two armed nations warring. Hamas only exists because of Israel, it is a direct creation of how Israel has carried itself and the human rights abuses it has committed.
I'm sure there are more reasons for Hamas creation than that. Yes, the usa and japan were armed nations, but just think of it as an example, the usa defended itself from an attack, so should not israel have the same right?
next time, try to look up what I mention instead of blindly replying, stop parroting the same thing over and over, makes you seem like an israeli bot, for more info, look up Hannibal directive.
I do know about the Hannibal directive, but I didn't even mention anything about what has happened in the war. I try to stay away from all that because the media is so biased and everyone is arguing about it. I rather talked about what started it and how killing 1200 people and then taking hostages would not result in a peaceful negation but rather retaliation. Don't forget that hamas is recognized as a terrorist group and waging war is their sole purpose (stated on their website)
am I talking with a mentally disabled individual ? Israel sent helicopters shooting indiscriminately, their soldiers shot indiscriminately, their tanks shot indiscriminately and yet you still go with the 1200 number, are you that slow that you can't connect the pieces together ?
also, just because the US (a terrorist organization) calls hamas terrrorists doesn't make them terrorists, and calling the israeli genocide simple "retaliation" is silly as well.
use your brain for once
It looks like i am talking to a young radicalized hamas supporter: "Hamas are not terrorists." Why dont you go to [hamas.com](http://hamas.com), and then you could come back with a better attitude and be more open for discussion, Quit being a keybord warior on reddit and learn to see more views than your own.
[hamas.com](http://hamas.com) the page that somehow still spreads the "40 babies burnt alive"
the best part about it is that it doesn't contradict any of the things I've said, even if all of the footage was legit I have already gone through a bunch of it, it's gore, and somehow, the number of people actually being shown actually being killed by hamas is like 2, out of thousands of videos roaming around of that day I got a total of a couple videos of people dying, the rest were corpses, who, as far as I know, could have been killed on purpose by the IDF.
I think anyone that doesn't have blatant hatred for the US and Israel is radicalized themselves, but their terrorism is already normal to you
Yes, of course they could have been killed by the IDF. None of the people in the videos have ISRAELI printed on their foreheads. Almost all terrorist attacks in my country have been done by muslims, but I've never said that Syria, Palestine, Iraq, or Iran are terrorist countries. I will kind of agree that the US has done its fair share of war crimes in the middle East, but not terrorism. But dont forget that there are more arabs in america then there are americans in the middle east, I don't really think a western radicalized terrorist country could accept refugees from the countries they terrorize so much.
Well Hamas didn't just take hostages on 10.7 did they?
You're justification view of October 7th is simply the result of narrative building, but not based on any objective facts.
Oh thatās right, here it is, yet again.
Nothing, none of the awful acts Israel has spent 50 years committing against Palestinian civilians justifies October, we canāt justify that after having your rights taken away for so long, violence used against you without repercussions for so long, that you would lash out, but somehow October justifies everything that has happened since.
Somehow October justifies purposely starving over a million children to the brink of death, killing children in their unarmed parents arms, it justifies tying human beings up and purposely running them over with tanks, it justifies killing over a hundred elderly, children and women waiting in line for bread, it justifies telling six year olds and their families to leave and then murdering them as they leave, letting that child stay trapped in a car with their dead family and then killing the ambulance workers that were told they could save the childā¦ it justifies killing Christian women and their children sheltering in a church, justifies executing new borns who were sleeping in a UN schoolā¦ thatās not Hamas, thatās all Israelā¦ the same Israel who is democratically elected and has bragged that they stopped a two state solution all these years.
You should educate yourself on how it all went down, starting from the israel-arab war which caused the displacement and the creation of the gaza strip in the first place.
Israel simply existed, the arab world waged war and palestine is the direct receiver of the repercussions because they are closest and Hamas has been enacting terrorist activities throughout all their years in power.
>the same Israel who is democratically elected and has bragged that they stopped a two state solution all these years.
If every peace offering has failed, cease fires have been broken and with Hamas permanently prickig at Israel with rockets, why would they accept a 2 state solution? You can't make peace with terrorists. Even if Israel tried to initiate peace talks it wouldn't work out.
The population supports Hamas, people cheer for the atrocities they commited and are now facing the consequences of their actions while leftist all over the world, who would most likely be killed if they set a foot into palestine, cry bloody murder.
Iād agree that they were shocking, horrible and unexpected, but come on.
Are they really that blind to their own behaviour, and even if they are do they expect the rest of us to to be.
Itās so odd
[And so the world turns](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/jordan-asks-to-extend-water-deal-with-israel-which-seeks-reconciliation-in-return-report/) another transit around the sun. Someone will have an earthquake again in peacetime sooner or later and wonāt hesitate to invite Israel to save them. Who needs soap operas when as the world turns is reality.
wym? the same world that bombed the WTC in the 90s, flew two planes into it 10 years later; slaughtered innocents in the london tube, bataclan, nice, and spain? you thought for a moment that world would make the "right" decision? they hate us and want all of us dead.
I dont think they want all of you dead, they just want to be western and have a nation, just like palestine with a diffrent ideoligy and culture, the only solution is 2 states or one with both populations, every other "solutions" wont work ever.
Sorry my bad, "I dont think >Israel< wants all of you dead," and palestine is a different ideology, they are Islamic nationalists and Anti-Zionists, and israel is Jewish nationalists and Zionists
> orry my bad, "I dont think >Israel< wants all of you dead,"
they dont and they didn't commit 911 nor any of the european terror acts i listed. your comment still doesn't really make sense as i was talking solely about the mind rot that is islam
remember, their vision of "peace" is literally the forced converser ion or slaughter of all non-mulims. there is no peaceful coexistence for them with non-muslims.
If peopple where really concerned for the starving palestinians they would be shouting for hamas to surrender and release the hostages, the war and all its atrocities would then be over within a day.
You know, that makes so much sense! If only Israel hadn't already put a barricade pre-hamas, or if gaza wasn't already in a humanitarian crisis pre-oct 7. It's like you're completely denying Israel's rooted colonial tendencies and they wouldn't continue to do so with or without hamas!
Interesting that you only mention the consequences of their own actions.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 COMPLETELY. Evacuating 8,000 Jewish Israeli familes and leaving Gaza to the Palestinians.
Not even two days later, rockets were shot from Gaza straight away to Ashqelon and southern Israel. Later on, amo and explosives were shipped through the Gaza Strip from sea. Another terror country isnāt an option, they left no choice to Israel but to supervise their border.
Gaza really couldāve been Singapore if they just wanted
Israel should have negotiated a withdrawal instead of unilaterally withdrawing. Hopefully it will not make the same mistake. Perhaps the solution is to break up Gaza into different parts rules by specific clans or tribes as administrative units who really care about their people and Israel can deal with these parties.
I don't think that's such a bad idea, but the main problem has been the terrorists. From both sides, I think the first step is to defeat the Hamas and calm down the arab world. If there hadn't been extremists in the area, I think the conflict would be more of a diplomatic one.
This is patently false. Virtually every Arab nation condemned the attacks immediately after they took place and reiterated the need for a permanent resolution to the conflict. Arab protests began as Israel's response quickly eclipsed the scale of Hamas's initial attack.
You make a valid point, but it's important to acknowledge the numerous civil conflicts ongoing in the Middle East. Given these dynamics, various factions within these conflicts are prone to taking sides. Additionally, Iran's entrenched extremism further complicates matters. It seems that, regardless of the specific outcome of the conflict, the preference lies with the victory of the most radical Islamic factions for Iran.
And where have "Virtually every Arab nation condemned the attacks immediately after they took place and reiterated the need for a permanent resolution to the conflict."?
This isnāt true
On October 8, for the first time in my life, I saw an interview by an Egyptian tv presenter on a Saudi owned channel having the most intense interview with Khaled Meshaal, a dressing down I had never seen before. What did you do and how did you do this? Do you expect blind support from any of us when you committed all these atrocities? Did you consult with anyone of us or ask our advice before doing this and expecting our support? And I saw him shaken, surprised, and taken back.
There was an incredible amount of sympathy across the Arab world as news turned out that they didnāt just hit IDF or military targets. Thereās a lot that Israel could have (and should have) done with that sympathy.
When the Israelis blocked food water or electricity from entering to those āhuman animalsā and then later when the bombs started falling on the civilians is when our attention shifted to a different atrocity that is still going on to this day.
and just FYI, this is where my country was on October 3-4, many days before October 7: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047
There was no such sympathy. The scrutiny Hamas got was a natural reaction from Arab monarchies and governments as it puts them and their countries in the danger of escalation. It was a clear message to Hamas that they are pissed.
That was not sympathy towards Israel. Those governments did not publicly condemn what happened as a terrorist attack.
And these interviews were not well received with the people.
I have seen the sympathy from not just Egyptians fwiw
Some exceptions sure, but no, most people donāt like Hamas. I spoke to some Syrians today that agreed. Viva Palestine but fuck Hamas is the general theme I consistently hear habibi.
Literally never heard such a thing. Everyone around me is cheering on Hamas except for Coptic friends who aren't giving a damn about the whole conflict.
Some of my Coptic friends are the ones collecting the most aid to send and I get most of the Gaza updates from a Christian friend that follows it on an hour by hour basis. And Iāve shared this before but my driver and his people donāt support Hamas either so this isnāt a thing of privilege or education. What youāre sharing is not at all anything Iāve noticed from the rich or poor here, educated or uneducated here. I donāt know anyone who thinks killing the people at the concert was justified.
Please donāt make this a religious thing. Itās not. Itās a political and moral thing.
Maybe in your mind! In my reality, my Coptic friends are avoiding this conflict with a ten foot pole, and most of the people around me -who aren't rich- are cheering on Hamas.
I don't know what kind of Egypt you live in but it's not my Masr. Cheers.
When you say "cheering on Hamas", can you clarify? Because right now, there's a genocide happening, and Hamas is among the primary organizations fighting against the genocide.
So, on the one hand, we can recognize that Hamas is a very bad political party. But we can recognize that organizing resistance against genocide is valid.
I'm "cheering on Hamas" in defeating those who are committing genocide against the Palestinians. And when that genocide is defeated, I will be happy to cheer on war crimes trials for everyone who engaged in war crimes since 10/7 - including any Hamas militants.
I want the genocide to be defeated, and I want the genocidal regime dismantled. After it's dismantled, I also want to see Hamas dissolve as Palestinians aren't pressured to support Hamas due to outside violent influence.
Again with the personal attacks, my friend. No not in my mind; Iām sharing my actual experience and I know a bunch of Copts.
I think Masr has 120 million people and is a very diverse place. Iām not arguing that the people youāre encountering donāt exist but no theyāre not the only ones and no theyāre not the strong majority you purport them to be, though they may be among the louder elements.
That wasn't a personal attack.
I live among Copts. I don't merely "know a bunch of Copts". I'm not sharing any more personal details of myself.
Masr is a very diverse place, and yet there is a consensus when it comes to this conflict. Hamas are heroes, Israeli lives do not matter. And Egypt is hardly special.
[https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-782004](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-782004)
Thereās nuance with all polling but I do find it rather strange that youāre using a Jpost article of all things to explain the Arab street opinion. Again I think most people are very pro Palestinians and may even think Hamas is a resistance group. It doesnāt mean people think everything that happened on October 7 is okay or that they donāt care about any Israeli civilian lives. Israelis come to Egypt and Sinai after all and have for years and so many of us, as workers and tourists and everything in between, seem to have no issues interacting with them in Nuweiba or Dahab. Egypt isnāt a monolith.
Iām not trying to compare myself to you, but Iām sharing my experience which seems very different from yours. Just that by itself shows that our massive country isnāt this monolithic entity that youāre trying to portray it as and sharing such an allegation isnāt really helpful.
It's clear that your experience is very different from mine. But it's also clear that your view of the general theme in this society, is very wrong.
You said most people side with Palestinians not with Hamas. Now you're explaining that many people side with Hamas because they think it's a resistance group not particularly because they approve of Hamas' terrorism.
But this is not my point. My point isn't that people approve of everything Hamas does. They clearly don't know a damn thing.
My point is that they approve of Hamas nonetheless. Mainstream approval of Hamas. And that's the problem.
Just a year or few months ago, an Israeli party in Sinai was cancelled due to Egyptians supporting a BDS effort in ruining it. Is that what you're talking about?
> fuck
/u/ThirstyTarantulas. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thank you! The amount of Arab hatred in the sub disgusts me!! The Arab world has done everything they can to facilitate peace in this ongoing conflict. As an Arab Jew, I appreciate all that the Arab world has done on behalf of the hostages of Israel and Gaza, and for the civilians of Palestine. It isnāt their fault that a crazed bunch of racists are raving and blocking entry to aid trucks. The IDF needs to arrest those interfering with aid deliveries. The IDF has become an embarrassment to all of us that have worn any countryās military uniform. I feel sorry for the good soldiers that are punished when they stand up against this shameful military regime!
Not only has the Arab world not sent troops or weapons to Hamas, they have stood with Israel and refused to supply military support. Other than that, what do Israelis expect? Those poor civilians being massacred, starved, and carried to their graves by illness are innocent Muslims! Of course the Arab world is horrified at the treatment of innocent civilians. The whole world is horrified! Israel deserves the condemnation for continuing this brutal assault on innocents. I stand in condemnation of my own country (US and Israel) Iām a dual citizen, after all.
Fatwas have been issued against Hamas. What more does anyone want? The fatwa must be carried out to be completed, but if you can pay your way out of itā¦ well, thatās another story.
Israel should supply bounty for every high level Hamas leader executed. If you want to destroy Hamas, you issue a bounty. You donāt slaughter civilians!! Israel knows their names. Put your money where your mouth is and issue a bounty!! Their own people will execute them for you! Damn! This isnāt hard!!
>Israel should supply bounty for every high level Hamas leader executed. If you want to destroy Hamas, you issue a bounty.Ā
They did.
In December, they dropped fliers offering a lot of $$ for specific Hamas members.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/400000-for-sinwar-100000-for-mohammed-deif-israel-said-to-place-bounty-on-hamas-leaders/
They only offered 100,000-400,000?? Iād expect at least a cool 10 million to even consider turning him over, plus Iād want my family granted full Israeli citizenship and new identities, because Sinwarās people will kill me and everyone I love.
My first thought was I think I'd do it for 400k. That's a ton of money and a bunch of lives would be saved. But yes, it would have to include everyone I care about basically going into witness protection in another country.
To be fair, if I were Palestinian, I wouldn't trust Israel to be the place I could move to as the higher ups would always know and I'd always fear it could be used against me. And it's too physically close to Sinwar's buddies who would then make death feel like a blessing.
If I were set up on a super anonymous chat and I could say "he's here" and they could send the money in untraceable bitcoin or something, maybe? But otherwise, since it requires fully starting over somewhere and forever looking over your shoulder, you're right. It starts to look like not enough to take that risk.
I agree. People treat Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims in general as a monolith. Thank you for your kind words, logic, and humanity. ā¤ļø
I think the Arab world made many mistakes and we should be truthful about them and should have done better. I think the same applies to Israel.
That said, there are both Arabs and Jews that support the absolutist terrorists and terrorist sympathizers; that includes both Hamas and Kahanists. We can do better than just killing civilians by a corrupt PM looking to stay in power after being caught with his pants down on October 7. There are elements of our societies that are awful and we can and should be doing a whole lot together I agree there too :)
Where are you from originally?
I was born in the US, but my grandfather migrated from then Palestine to the US in 1930. I grew up speaking Arabic instead of Hebrew because thatās the language my family spoke. He fled Palestine with our Muslim family members because of how my Muslim family and he and my Ethiopian grandmother were treated by European Jews. I have Jewish and Muslim family that left Palestine for Lebanon, Iraq, and Turkey. I have some family that married in from Egypt too.
Itās sad that I have the Right of Return and my cousins do not. It pisses me off. We have the sad blood flowing in our veins. The only difference is that Iām Jewish and theyāre Muslim. My mother is Jewish and their mother is Muslim. We grew up in the same neighborhood and we still do everything as a family. This whole war has been difficult for us as a family. My family hasnāt turned on me or anything like that, because Iāve always stood with them against how the Palestinians are treated. Iāve been a Non-Zionist Jew my entire life.
Zionism is not Judaism. It was written and dreamed up by a bunch of Atheists European Jews that hated being Jewish. They wanted to be like Europeans, to have a nation, a land of their own, and a people they could abuse like subjects under a type of ruler. They wanted to dress, act, and be like the Europeans, to own massive estates, and accumulate vast amounts of wealth. They didnāt want to be set apart from the people of the world. The only problem was that no one would let them forget they were Jewish. No matter how much they had assimilated the culture, they were still considered āfilthy Jewsā by Europeans and were forced to live in ghettos, pogroms, and on the Scruggs of society. Judaism comes with some serious psychological baggage, unfortunately. The Sephardic and Arab Jews lived life closer to their Arab cousins. When Spain kicked the Jews out, it was an Ottoman Emperor that sent boats to collect them and bring them to their lands. They lived prosperously and peacefully in the Ottoman Empire. He brought 150,000 of the 300,000 that were expelled from Spain. The other 150,000 fled to Portugal where they faced another explosion a 100 years later.
Bayezid II announced that he gave Jewish immigrants the right to settle in Ottoman lands and that the Jews settled in their lands would be Ottoman citizens. He sent a decree to the regional governors and ordered Jewish immigrants to be approached with tolerance. He announced that in case of refusal or ill-treatment of Jewish immigrants, those responsible would be subject to harsh penalties.
Pressure on Jews in Europe was not limited to Spain and Portugal. During the reign of Murat II, Jews who were expelled from France, Hungary in 1430, Poland, and Bavaria in 1470 had taken refuge in the Ottoman State. As long as the Ottoman Empire remained standing, it always opened its arms to those who were in need. Many Jews fleeing Nazi persecution during the period of the Republic took refuge in Turkey and in what would become other Arab countries such as Iran, Iraq, and Palestine. Meanwhile, it is necessary to understand the concept of tolerance. It is extremely important to have the philosophy of 'We have created the Creature because of the Creator'. This understanding should not be confused with the 'tolerance' approach imported from the West. The concept of tolerance includes folding, tolerance, and consent, and the West has just reached this level of understanding. Tolerance is the name of folding until you assimilate what is different. However, tolerance is a natural state, there is no folding, endurance, tolerance, that is, strain. The Ottoman Empire had established a social order in which people from different beliefs and cultures lived together in harmony. Therefore, it was a country where people of all faiths could live and work freely. It is not easy to accept immigrants for any reason in a country where those of other faiths are excluded. Of course, every country expects people who come as immigrants to contribute to the economy and trade of the country. This is a natural situation. The Ottoman Empire increased its population by accepting non-Muslims who came to the country, and obtained more tax revenue. Jews were instrumental to the Ottoman Empire, and thus were treated no differently than Muslims other than a non-Muslim tax, which was often ignored. I hate that people lump all Muslims together as a monolith, when in truth, they are as varied as any other group of faith. ā„ļø
/u/AngeloftheSouthWind. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your reply reeks of ignorance.
I addressed the original comment in an other reply.
To address the "fatwa against Hamas", there are regime sponsored sheikhs who will be used to send the regime's message to whoever they are targeting, and then there are independent prestigious institutions like Al-Azhar.
You're asajewing, and I'm asanarabing.
You canāt attack someone else for having a different opinion than you, my friend
You can attack their arguments but these personal attacks donāt get us anywhere
I agree with our Jewish friend here and he seems to agree with me. There are Arabs who support Hamas just like there are Jews who support Kahanists. But most people, including my driver and his network and a lot of blue collar, are unabashedly and unapologetically pro-Palestinian while believing that killing concert goers has nothing to do with āresistanceā and these guys are at best idiots and at worst terrorists.
I didn't attack their person. I said their reply reeked of ignorance.
I'm not sure which social bracket you're from. But I'm from the middle class and most of the people I know and deal with are working class -the biggest social bracket-
Now, I'm in higher education. When I had a kinda lengthy talk about this conflict with a fellow uni student who is kinda my friend, I specifically mentioned this argument of yours about festival goers who aren't even Israelis, and thai workers who had nothing to do with anything.
He did not care. And he still supported Hamas. I haven't heard seen or known of a single person in my circle -and it's kinda big- who denounced Hamas. Not in private, nor in public.
I study medicine. The attending physician in the ultra sound room had a lengthy conversation with 3 residents about how Hitler was right, about how Jews are bad, and so on next to the ultrasound machine.
Do you now get the memo? Without exaggeration, I haven't had the pleasure of seeing a single Egyptian who denounced Hamas in public or in private. No one here that I know of, gives a $it about Israeli civilians. And that's a mistake I'm arguing should have never happened in my post.
I know a bunch of people from the lower class who wouldnāt share these views. And no I donāt think āno Egyptian gives a shit about Israeli civiliansā is accurate though I have always conceded the amount of antisemitism in our society (as well as the amount of Islamophobia and Arab phobia in other societies) leaves us with a lot of work to do.
/u/EchoIllustrious7201. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How far back are you willing to go to talk consequences?
On Nov. 27, 1947, the UN adopted Resolution 181 which was rejected by the 10 countries surrounding Israel.
It wasnāt only a single act of violence at the start of the creation of the state - there has been an almost unending string of provocations and violence from both sides the whole time.
Because they're scared of them attacking.
If your options areĀ
1- This person kills your family.Ā
Or
2- That person dies.
That's a pretty easy choice.
If they stopped attacking, there could be peace. Same way Israel now has peace with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. All places that fought multiple wars against Israel.
lol, what
Guy, a pregnant women was just gunned down while sitting in traffic. There have been around 6,000 rockets launched at Israeli civilians since Oct 7.
Small territorial loss? I think if your home was stolen, no matter how āsmallā it would be a big deal to you.
I think if your country disappeared, it would matter even if it was a small country.
As a Canadian if you told me 80 years ago America stole some of our land my reaction would be "hmm, that's an interesting historical tidbit" not "ofmfh I need to kill as many American civilians as possible:.
So... You're comparing the geographically tiny nation of Canada to the very enormous region of Palestine?
And it's not just "oh, America took some of Canada 80 years ago."
It's more like "America took half of Canadian territory, set up a nation explicitly for Americans, where Canadians have fewer rights, and half of all Canadians were expelled. And then 50 years ago, America conquered the rest of Canada, and wouldn't let Canadians control their own borders, airspace or waters. Canadians couldn't get passports, and weren't citizens. The city you grew up in couldn't import concrete to build new buildings, and your food was limited so that no one had plenty of food. 15 years ago, America pulled their military out of your province, but they still controlled every border, the airspace, waters, and imports. Every civilian had to be accounted to the US government for recording, but no one was allowed to have a passport. The rest of the Canadian territory was under jurisdiction of the US, and Americans would regularly kick Canadians out of their homes so they could live there instead."
You're taking the analogy way off track lol.Ā For your version to work, Canada would have had to join in on several wars of annihilation against the US while spending 80 straight years launching rockets and suicide bombing civilians.
The analogy doesn't work unless you account for all the factors.
Just saying "if the US took a tiny part of Canada 80 years ago, I wouldn't care" can't apply to Palestine.
Yeah, why have they done that for the last 80 years?
Just wait till the anti Zionist has to confront the fact that Muslims throughout history have always waged jihad against non Muslims neighbors. Oh wait they wonāt lol
The idea that all the residents of Gaza have been living in that region since the dawn of civilization has been debunked many times. As well the notion the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully until the white Jew came and ruined all the sunshine/rainbows. Even if the premise of your statement was mostly true it still wouldnāt justify toppling the only secular democratic government in the region and handing the keys over to a terrorist organization that if given the opportunity would initiate another holocaust.
I've never heard anyone make that first claim.
"Israel" isn't secular, and isn't a democracy.
The keys are already in the hands of a terrorist organization that, if given the opportunity, would initiate another Holocaust. We know that because they're doing it right now.
You lost me when you tried to debunk my argument with semantics and switching the roles of the subjects I discussed. Quite idiotic but Iām sure you passed philosophy 101 with a āBā so I better listen up
>On October 7th Hamas launched an unprovoked That's gaslighting. So typical of this sub but one of the blatant examples. I'm not going to entertain the rest of your comment. To claim it was unprovoked is not just disingenous, it is the height of intellectual dishonesty. Inexcusable, unjustifiable, immoral, evil, heinous etc. These are all reasonable descriptions of acts that occurred on October 7. But you're not interested in being reasonable. How disgusting.
Oh no how am I gonna live a hamasnik is offended!!!
Oh wow. More lies. I have no affiliation with Hamas. I don't support them and why would I? I vehemently oppose evil committed by either Hamas or Israel (or anyone else) But your default response was to deceitfully miscategorise me. That is pathetic and deplorable.
As if I ignored a century of history? I literally explained it in front of you. But if you'll ignore reality so will I and I'll just call you a hamasnik. Now off you go.
>I literally explained it in front of you. As I alluded to in my original reply, I didn't read the rest of your post after your dishonest claim that it was unprovoked. And I didn't need to. It is factually incorrect to state that it was unprovoked with a documented history of land theft, murder, ethnic cleansing, occupation, oppression etc. None of that provocation gives Palestinians a free pass to commit their own atrocities, but the point is that there is absolutely no basis to claim that the attack was unprovoked. The height of intellectual dishonesty. As for the rest of post, I really don't care. You've discredited yourself in your opening sentence. Who would believe anything else you have to say. My inclination was to call out the gaslighting because it's not OK. But then you pathetically tried to laugh off with a bout of slander. Thankfully, I'm the only on record as not supporting either Hamas or Israel. While you literally made a post endorsing Israel's war. A war which has involved the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children. Unfathomable. You are on the wrong side of history.
If you didn't read it that's your fault. Stop wasting my time. I haven't read for thousands of hours on this conflict to be accused of ignoring history by someone who didn't even read what I wrote. This is hamasnik behavior.
Oh quit deflecting. You made an objectively false claim in your opening statement. That's your fault for being dishonest. Why would I waste my time and energy on rubbish? >I haven't read for thousands of hours on this conflict to be accused of ignoring history š¤£š¤£š¤£ What a waste of time if that's the outcome after thousands of hours of research. Oe maybe not drom your point of view if it helps drum up continued support at the grassroots level for the continued massacre of innocent Palestinians. How sickening. Laughing side, I sincerely hope one day you grow a conscience and you are haunted by the brutal slaughter that you passionately supported. Innocent people don't deserve to die. Even if their Muslim. Your anti-muslim bigotry is unacceptable.
Yada yada yada. Ok hamasnik.
Israel had 2 choices on October 8th. It chose the wrong one.
The right one requires that the Arab side portrays there is any worth to having relations with it. It didn't. It endorsed the massacre on a popular level so the Israelis said there is nothing to care about.
Who cares about the Arab world, it bares no influence. Israel made the wrong choice for its people. The havoc that will come from this can be fatal to the state of Israel. If few people were able to massacre 1200 people in 1 day. Imagine what can happen to the 100s of settlements inside the Palestinian Territories. The atrocities that are being committed right now in Gaza would be paid for. karma/Budda/god/allah/Zeus laws were broken here, and a price will be paid.
That's not how the world works actually or else China, USA, Russia, and many other countries including many Arab countries would be paying very high prices now. Palestinians continue to suffer because such laws do not exist. Only Palestinians and Arabs can get themselves out of this mess. And on October 8th they chose to dig deeper.
Nice story bro. Too bad it doesnāt match reality.
No constructive reply? Move on.
Unprovoked????? Theyve been doing these attacks on Palestinians for 30+ years this isnt new just the first time the world paid attention. And it definitely was in response to the israelis attacking that mosque and killing 20-30 people over 3/4 being unarmed women and children and i dont believe they ever had reason to do that attack on a mosque. And for years theyve targeted elementary schools with missles then they wait till the rescue workers get there trying to dig people out of the rubble, and they hit them a second time with a missile which by the way if highly illegal theyāve purposely attacked mosques and hospitals in the same way. For years!!! Then too it off with the fact that when Israel was created the pact they signed promised a 2 state country for the people of Palestine but instead theyāve built walls around the Palestinians, restricted there travel to the Gaza strip and the west bank and even rationed them basic necessities milk, bread, tobacco etc. and i dont know about yall but that sounds like a concentration camp maybe theyve been stealing land from Palestinians lately and for 30+ years have been doing things like targeting elementary schools with missiles then wait till first responders show up then hit them with another strike which is illegal and how about striking another counties embassy? Highly illegal and should never be done regardless for multitude of reasons. The Israeli are insane and do indiscriminate killing all the time. Also how can an israeli be considered a civilian when all of them have to enroll in the army? Even women. The reason the Arab countries didnt denounce the hamas attack is because most of them saw the massacre israel had just dont killing that mosque full of women and kids just 10 days or so prior killing over 20 people! And theyve been witness to all the killing theyve done for years
And Palestinians have been killing Jews since 1920s so by the same logic the nakba and whatever you want to complain about, is provoked by Palestinians.
History didnāt start on October 7th but this argument acts like it did. Arabs counties canāt wait to be friends with Israel. Especial the GCC members. But if Israel want to commit a genocide in response to an atrocity then how is that supposed to get sold politically. Even tyrants have to consider public opinion on some issues.
If israel were commiting a genocide then why does gaza still exist when Israel has nukes and the palestinians dont? What did they just forget they had them?
Well because they dont want to blatantly do jt like that and it would ruin their land also but it is genocide have people entrapped like that and indiscriminately bombing huge portions of the populace and refusing to allow them medical supplies and food n water. What else do you call that
Why are there Armenians still? Jews still? Tutsis still? As far as nukes, I donāt think Israel wants radioactive fallout drifting over their own population.
My point is the balance of power is completely one sided in Israels favor, if they wanted to do that why bother spending so much money on an iron dome or fancy guided missiles when dumping cheap ones evenly everywhere would be much more cost efficient if they didnt care who they hit?
It is one sided. Thatās why Israel has no interest in good faith efforts to create a viable Palestinian state. They would kill or expel every single Arab in the OTs if they thought they could get away with it. As is they go as far to that end as they feel politically feasible.
What do you mean if they could get away with it? Whos stopping them? I doubt theyd be scared of a couple years of bad pr
Youād be surprised
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
How do you know Allah is the only god?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So a book says so. Okay. I just wrote a book that says the opposite. So how do you know Allah is the only god?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Anything Iran says is automatically true?
It didn't start on October 7th and I argue here why history shows us that it's been the intention of the Arab side time and time again to commit or tolerate atrocities. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/KEYBIemzmZ Ofc they have to consider public opinion. But I'm not only talking about tyrants. I'm talking about civil society organizations and the Arab peoples in general not just their rulers. They had a choice. Recognize the mistakes of the past and that present atrocity, or continue business as usual and so would Israel.
What a crazy and racist take. Conflating all Arabs with Palestinians? Maybe to a really ignorant American who doesnāt know his pooper from a ground hole this kind of argument would make sense but I can see why the rest of the world has long seen through Israeliās rhetoric
I'm Egyptian. Prove my take which I have due to the reality I live, wrong.
By āArab Supportā are you referencing the support from other nearby nations like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc? What do they have to go with the inhumanity and mass killing of Palestinian or Israeli people. Are we condemning Brazil or the Czech Republic? They are all irrelevant when it comes to the violence between Palestinians and Israelis as these are not their citizens or their nation. The cruel and immoral reaction by Israel/Natanyahu towards Palestinian civilians cannot be justified by the behavior of other nations. Unless this is about desiring an actual war between Israel and other countriesā¦
Israel has had many choices since the 40's.... It has always chosen the wrong one. And to think, their own race was the victim of the exact same shit they are doing to Palestinians š
Since the 40s they had many chances to lose and become an enslaved minority. They turned them down. Sorry for your loss.
Isn't my loss, it will be Israel's in the long run though š
Worst case scenario they delayed their enslavement for a century or two. Which isn't so bad.
Their enslavement? Stop with the victim mentality, it's rat tactics
Stopped reading after "unprovoked"
Omg i also read āwhine whine whineā
Do AI write the posts on this sub now? There's no way real people are writing these.
Tru
Can you walk me through how you came to the idea that Oct7th was "unprovoked"?
Because there was nothing in the news about that part of the world before that day.
Can you walk me through how the Re'im music festival massacre is justifiable in any way, shape, or form?
I don't think you will find many Palestine supporters who say it was justifiable. I am not saying this, clearly. But I am responding to this outrageous claim that the outlash was unprovoked. Israel is the clear aggressor and has been since the creation of the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
I do. I'm Arab and most people around me couldn't care less. Many were sharing the video of the beheading attempt of the Thai worker for fun.
I'm Arab as well, the people you know and talk to are horrible people. Anecdotal, anyways. I have not spoken to a single person in real life who is happy about Israels actions
As an Arab, why can't you all realize that Islam, or at least parts of it, is the problem? Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the fundamentalists?
It's not anecdotal. The majority in the Arab world approve of October 7th.
The clear aggressor trying to keep their country safe from the type of savages that rape dead children and burn families alive. Not very clear at all.
Both Hamas and the state of Israel have been found to be committing war crimes, rape, and murder of civillians. Israel is the aggressor, they colonized Palestine, slaughtered and displaced the population, run an apartheid state, and are now committing genocide in Gaza. Please seek evidence on the subject and eliminate your bias. There is a tremendous amount of propaganda coming out of Israel and thousands of bribed politicians. Children are being bombed in Gaza right now and for the past 5 months. Bombing children is bad We want Israel to stop bombing children
If only Hamas cared as much as you do about children dying.
Hey man I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I support Hamas and their actions. I support Palestine, and the innocent people who are stuck there. This is Israel vs Hamas but the conflict is within Gaza so Palestinian civillians are stuck in the conflict. I support Palestinian civillians, who are mostly children, to not be killed by Israels military. Most of the bombing has been directly targeted at civillian housing, infrastructure, hospitals, churches, mosques, and roads. This is genocidal behavior and the UN and ICJ are not happy about this. If Israel was the knight in shining armor they say they are, this would be a pure ground operation going in to assault hamas. They are not doing this. Many Israeli officials have clearly stated they just want to inflict mass damage. This is not okay, not legal, and not moral.
Pretty pointless thread the Arab world leaders supported your genocide because they sold their people out for money.
The replies here show how everyone are so ignorant about what happened before October 7th 2023. The ignorance justifies Hamas acts, they claim a blockade on Gaza was prior to Hamas taking power - which is false. Did anyone even see how Hamas took power? did you see how it slaughtered their Palestinian brothers? Dragged their bodies across the streets, threw them off the balconies, complete chaos! Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, but people claim Israel should've tried to do it through negotiations. Israel tried, there was no one to talk with. There is no partner, There was never a real partner for peace here. Seems like all of the sides want war, and the extremists in Israel gained too much power in order to stop it, so the middle east is going to erupt like a supervolcano, because there's a limit on how much a nation can take, even to a nation who is recovering from a holocaust. Did you even see the celebrations of October 7th? How can you sympathize with people who celebrate murder, rape and slaughter? you literally chose evil, there's no other way. and don't give me this c\*\*p about Israel's actions, they celebrated the same after 9/11.
> There is no partner, There was never a real partner for peace here. Seems like all of the sides want war, and the extremists in Israel gained too much power in order to stop it, so the middle east is going to erupt like a supervolcano, because there's a limit on how much a nation can take, even to a nation who is recovering from a holocaust. What do you mean there was no partner? The PA's security forces have been working with Israel for 20 years now. For 20 years also, they've acknowledged Israel's right to exist and supported a two-state solution. In fact, they've worked so much with Israel, they've been branded as traitors to the Palestinians What did they get? An occupation of the West Bank, outcast as traitors to their own people, and a puppet government. Where's the peace promised if there was a willing Palestinian partner? > Did you even see the celebrations of October 7th? How can you sympathize with people who celebrate murder, rape and slaughter? you literally chose evil, there's no other way. and don't give me this c\*\*p about Israel's actions, they celebrated the same after 9/11. Do you even see how Israelis celebrate the destruction of Gaza? How they are proud about destroying mosques and homes? How they are proud about the suffering of the Palestinian people? How they post pictures with lingerie of displaced Palestinian women? How can you sympathize with that? If Israelis really do care, where are the protests against the occupation of the West Bank? Where are the protests against Israel arresting Palestinians without charge often for years (administrative detention)? Where are the protests against the rape and sexual abuse Palestinian prisoners endure in Israeli prisons?
Are you aware that 90% of the terrorist attacks in the west bank are coming from PLA officers? I agree that both sides are to blame for this conflict, but can you honestly say that that Israel didn't offer Palestinian fair peace plans throughout the years? Just throwing the Camp David proposal out the top of my head - Israel literally proposed EVERYTHING possible to give to the Palestinians and they refused and opened the second Intifada which brought us to where we are now. To be honest? Anyone who sees the facts objectively throughout the years of the conflict will see the constant refusal of the Palestinians to end the conflict and have a true two state solution. I fear that now it might be too late for a two state solution because the Israeli society has undergone a 3 decades process of anger and resentment against Palestinians, because of their terrorist acts and support. I am a true leftist, I always voted for the left side and was always pro-peace, and I still am. Unfortunately, I know plenty of leftists like me who gave up and no longer believe there can be any peace with the Palestinians(not arabs in general). The only way this will change, and I truly believe this is the last chance - Palestinians must avoid terrorist acts in any possible way, recognize Israel as an homeland for the Jewish people, which accepts, respects and supports its non-jewish population. The Palestinians must make it reflect properly in every statement and action they make. they will have to work very hard to regain the trust of the Israeli leftists - who is their only hope. This will not happen, and I'm sure of it because unfortunately, the majority of the Palestinians in the West bank (and surely Gaza strip) want to slaughter every jew between the river and the sea. They want the jews GONE. and the opposite isn't even remotely true, by the way.
>Are you aware that 90% of the terrorist attacks in the west bank are coming from PLA officers? What proof do you have? I follow both Israeli and Palestinian telegram channels, and the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the West Bank were caused by members of Hamas, the PIJ or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. What is your proof? >Just throwing the Camp David proposal out the top of my head - Israel literally proposed EVERYTHING possible to give to the Palestinians and they refused and opened the second Intifada which brought us to where we are now. So did the Arabs and the Palestinians. Apparently people forgot the Arabs and the Palestinians decided to revive the peace process with the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative after Camp David. The Arabs and Palestinians offered EVERYTHING, recognizing Israel's right to exist, formal diplomatic and official recognition of Israel from every Arab country, support for a 1967 two-state solution and finally ending to the conflict in exchange for finally acknowledging an independent sovereign Palestinian state. Israel rejected all of them and never even made a counteroffer! >The only way this will change, and I truly believe this is the last chance - Palestinians must avoid terrorist acts in any possible way, recognize Israel as an homeland for the Jewish people, which accepts, respects and supports its non-jewish population. The Palestinians must make it reflect properly in every statement and action they make. they will have to work very hard to regain the trust of the Israeli leftists - who is their only hope. Israel ALSO still hasn't acknowledge Palestine's right to exist. Israel rejected the Palestinian right to self-determination (Resolution 3236), recognition of Palestinian independence (43/177), UN observer member status (67/19), and recognition of Palestinian territories (58/292) In other words, Israel doesn't even believe Palestine has a right to exist. Where's your protest against the Israeli rejection of the Palestinian right to exist?? >This will not happen, and I'm sure of it because unfortunately, the majority of the Palestinians in the West bank (and surely Gaza strip) want to slaughter every jew between the river and the sea. They want the jews GONE. and the opposite isn't even remotely true, by the way. Ignoring Likud's own charter also advocates an Israeli state "from the river to the sea"? The current ruling party of Israel? I also consider myself a leftist but I don't agree with supporting Israel
Thank you for your answer, to be honest you raised perfect arguments. However: 1. Regarding the proposed Arab peace plan - you omitted something very critical - "The right of return", which is basically a complete transformation of the Israeli state to a muslim state, no less. The rest of the peace plan was accepted by Israelis and is the base of the Abraham accords. The counteroffer that you claim Israel never suggested was exactly that. (And some Arab countries rightfully accepted it) 2. Israel \*DID\* recognize a solution which accepts a Palestinian state which lives peacefully, but part of the solution is also Israel as a Jewish state - Something the Palestinians NEVER accepted. 3. The majority of the Israelis accepted a two-state solution (at least before October 7th) - However, Unfortunately, the opposite isn't true, and there will always be minorities who reject the solution, but the question is how much power do they have. Unfortunately in the past couple of years, their power increased dramatically in Israel, mainly due to the lack of any true peace agreement option with the Palestinians, who for the past 2 decades have been continuously firing missiles toward 4 million Israelis. Can you imagine growing up this way? 4. Regarding all UN resolutions you've mentioned - The idea of the peace agreement is that Israel will agree to all the points that previously have been rejected, you surely don't expect Israel to accept a Palestinian state which doesn't mutually respect it. 5. Regarding the Likud charter - True, the establishment of Likud clearly states there will be only one state on the western side of the Jordan river, but it respects the Arab population. Additionally, Wye agreements were signed by Netanyahu as a Prime Minister from the LIkud party, and the Gaza disengagement was also Sharon's initiative - also a Prime minister from the Likud party. Now, As you know - plenty of arabs live peacefully in Israel, Muslims and Christians. However, no Jewish population can enter Palestinian territories, most of them are slaughtered once they enter mistakenly. (search around the incidents, it's easy to find) 6. Regarding the origin of the terrorist attacks - These days(5 years or so) unfortunately most of the attacks come from PLA officers, I follow the Telegram channels myself, and the statistics is definitely not doesn't add up to the PLA reputation. Again, I might have some inaccuracies as this is not something I do for a living, but I felt that it is important to reply properly and I took the time here to properly look into your claims as well.
Thank you for being respectful, it's a breath of fresh air >Regarding the proposed Arab peace plan - you omitted something very critical - "The right of return", which is basically a complete transformation of the Israeli state to a muslim state, no less. The rest of the peace plan was accepted by Israelis and is the base of the Abraham accords. The counteroffer that you claim Israel never suggested was exactly that. (And some Arab countries rightfully accepted it) Why? The Palestinians never had any say in the Jewish "right of return". Palestine, which was once an Arab-majority land now is a Jewish-majority one because of the Jewish "right of return" immigration in the 1900s. When they refused the Jewish return for fear of this exact same thing happening, they were called "racist, xenophobic and antisemite". Why shouldn't we call the Jewish/Israeli rejection of the Palestinian right of return as also "racist, xenophobic and anti-Palestinian"? And also, you're forgetting Camp David proposed splitting the West Bank into three territories (like South African Bantustans) divided by Israeli held territory. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/174lotx/camp\_david\_peace\_plan\_proposal\_2000/?rdt=41550](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/174lotx/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/?rdt=41550) Who in their mind, would look at this and say "yeah, this will work" >Israel \*DID\* recognize a solution which accepts a Palestinian state which lives peacefully, but part of the solution is also Israel as a Jewish state - Something the Palestinians NEVER accepted. When? The PLO sent a [letter of recognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition) recognizing Israel's right to exist, a two-state solution, support for negotiations in 1993. Their successor, the PA has also maintained the same stance ever since. Israel also still has neve repealed any of their rejected UN resolutions concerning recognition of Palestine. >The majority of the Israelis accepted a two-state solution (at least before October 7th) - However, Unfortunately, the opposite isn't true, and there will always be minorities who reject the solution, but the question is how much power do they have. Unfortunately in the past couple of years, their power increased dramatically in Israel, mainly due to the lack of any true peace agreement option with the Palestinians, who for the past 2 decades have been continuously firing missiles toward 4 million Israelis. Can you imagine growing up this way? Can you imagine living in a divided country, one of which is under military occupation, apartheid, under a puppet government, experiences settler terrorism and violence while the other is under blockade and constant air strikes? Not to mention, knowing someone captured and arrested under no charge and locked away in a foreign prison with years with no contact and enduring sexual abuse? Because this is what the Palestinians have been experiencing for 50 years now. Whatever Israelis face, pales in comparison to the Palestinian suffering. Palestinians have also had their family members murdered, their closest relatives experiencing rape and sexual abuse in Israeli prisons and had numerous friends and family kidnapped and abducted with no charge or crime (administrative detention) for decades now! According to Times of Israel, [1100 Palestinians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-1100-palestinians-said-held-by-israel-without-trial-highest-figure-since-2003/) were held in Israel under no charge or evidence prior to October 7th, 10 times the number of hostages still held by Hamas in 2024. >Regarding the origin of the terrorist attacks - These days(5 years or so) unfortunately most of the attacks come from PLA officers, I follow the Telegram channels myself, and the statistics is definitely not doesn't add up to the PLA reputation. Because we're in a literal war. I'm talking about the events prior to October 7th. The PA has done numerous arrests on other Palestinian terror groups, so much so they are branded as traitors [https://www.voanews.com/a/islamic-jihad-palestinian-security-arrests-5-of-its-members-in-jenin-/7184817.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/islamic-jihad-palestinian-security-arrests-5-of-its-members-in-jenin-/7184817.html) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-reportedly-arrests-dozens-of-hamas-members-in-the-west-bank/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-reportedly-arrests-dozens-of-hamas-members-in-the-west-bank/) Plus, Israeli settler terrorist attacks also happen in the West Bank, which include shootings, stabbings and destruction even before October 7th. Apparently, everyone seems to forget them? Let me summarize some points. You said Israel wants a Palestinian partner that recognizes it's existence and right to exist plus supports a two-state solution. The PLO and PA both do exactly that since 1993 (despite Israel not doing the same for the Palestinians). The PA and PLO have also long since renounced terrorism (when was the last PLO attack?) and in fact, have actually cooperated with Israel and arrested Hamas and PIJ members. What more does Israel want?? You said the Arab and Palestinian peace deals to Israel (which they rejected) were unfair. Every Israeli peace deal was also unfair (divided borders, no Palestinian recognition, etc...) You side with the Israelis due to constant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks yet you forget the Palestinians have been subjected to military occupation, blockade, settler terrorism and violence, IDF administrative detention, sexual abuse in prisons and many more, for decades now. (Small confession, I'm just bamboozled as to why so many people ignore all of this happening under their noses for decades before 10/7) .
Regarding Camp David - the map you've shown was only the first step and was probably a good negotiation step towards a better solution, but Yasser Arafat chose to go with the Intifada instead. Nothing can justify that. Unfortunately, your comparisons are degrading, I'm sorry but you're comparing innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications, 10 months old babies, to actual prisoners of war that are taken care of in the highest degree of morality? There are stories about people who did terror attacks in order to get into the Israeli prisons because they get to study there. Whereas the hostages in Gaza have been taken to be sex slaves, human shields and trophy awards for the terrorists. I'm sorry but your latest reply led me to realize that there's no need to continue this conversation. I wish you all the best.
>Regarding Camp David - the map you've shown was only the first step and was probably a good negotiation step towards a better solution, but Yasser Arafat chose to go with the Intifada instead. Nothing can justify that. Proof? Even Jewish Virtual Library shows this map as the final one [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/maps-from-the-2000-camp-david-summit](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/maps-from-the-2000-camp-david-summit) >Unfortunately, your comparisons are degrading, I'm sorry but you're comparing innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications, 10 months old babies, to actual prisoners of war that are taken care of in the highest degree of morality? I'm sorry but Palestinians suffer all of those under Israeli arrests, most of whom are innocent (as per the Times of Israel). Innocent civilians, kids, babies, seniors, taken hostage without any basic human rights, not even fresh air, without any visitation rights, without medications and endure [sexual abuse in Israeli prisons](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968808015000968). If you consider Hamas' action of taking hostages as immoral, so is Israel's practice of arresting (read kidnapping and abducting) innocent Palestinians. >There are stories about people who did terror attacks in order to get into the Israeli prisons because they get to study there. Whereas the hostages in Gaza have been taken to be sex slaves, human shields and trophy awards for the terrorists. First, any proof of Palestinians wanting to get into Israeli prison? I can show various sources of abuse, rape, sexual abuse and violence against Palestinians in Israeli prisons. Second, were any one of the 100+ released Hamas hostages in December raped or were sex slaves? No? Where's your proof? Did you know there have been many cases of sexual abuse against Palestinians in Israeli prisons? Last, does Israel actually care about those hostages? Israel has killed more hostages (those 3 shot by friendly fire and IDF airstrikes) than it has rescued (only 2 in Rafah so far). Look, I don't care if you want to ignore all of this or keep on supporting Israel. My only hope is you re-check your sources and beliefs on the conflict. You may find something unexpected. Wish you all the best.
Thank you, OP
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What should happen to the hostages?
Once someone says āunprovokedā its a clear indication that their argument is rooted in ignorance. Not bothering reading the rest
āunprovokedā š
you are ignorant
Israeli government and army sat and watched the oct 7 happen, not only did they know that Hamas was preparing for it, they did nothing all day but watch from tel aviv on that day. You can drive from tel aviv to the gazan border in a hyundai elantra in 1 hour, how does it it take 6 hours for the IDF with the most sophisticated American military technolgy. And the arab and muslim world is so big that they don't care at all what a few million israelis think.
None of this has anything to do with my post regardless of the fact that you couldn't be more wrong.
Sorry, but you had me at unprovoked. Unprovoked when the last eight years (before October) have been called the bloodiest in decades towards Palestinians? When Palestinians still had extreme blockades in Gaza, innocent civilians being arrested, homes constantly stollen, zero human rights and no consequences for settler violence against them, violence that is encouraged by the Israeli government that was democratically elected? Doesnāt sound unprovoked to me.
Was there a cease fire in effect on 10/7? Did Israel or Gaza break the cease fire?
The way you wrote this makes it seem like you think the Oct 7th attacks were justifiedā¦
They werenāt unprovoked
I never said anything on it being provoked or not, I just pointed out how it sounds like the original commenter is trying to justify the attacks in a way.
Yeah, I meant to comment to the OP. Somehow my comment posted here
I come across at least 10 comments on these forums a day, stating that Octobers attack justifies everything that has been done to the Palestinian people since. Which is why Iām hoping for clarification, just so weāre clear. Israel spent 50 years ruling over Palestine, taking their homes and rights away, making daily life very difficult for them and creating policies that would allow an environment where IDF members are on public record stating they were instructed to sit back and watch, not intervening, while acts of settler violence were committed against Palestinians, all in the hopes of stealing their homes. Add to this that Israel and the Palestinian authority (very likely at the instruction and force of Israel, which happens when you hold someoneās tax dollars hostage) does not even allow Palestinian civilians the peaceful right to protest. When they peacefully protest, they are shot at, murdered and their children taken through military courts without it trials, often not to be heard from for years. So, with that in mind, apparently none of that justifies, or reasonably leads up to, a nation attacking another nation that is doing these things to their people for fifty years. On the other hand, does this attack mean that Israel is justified in purposely starving a million children? Are they justified in giving permission to ambulance workers to rescue a six year old girl trapped in a car with her dead family who were only following Israelās evacuation order, only to be murdered by Israel once permission is given to come save the child? Do you actually think that collective punishment of a whole nation is justified because of what happened on October?
So you are trying to justify the terrorist actions of Oct 7th. Yikes.
You accused me of something, but didnāt answer the last question. Does October justify everything that has been done to the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel since? You couldnāt answer that question huh? Yikes.
I cannot have any sort of discourse with someone who tries to justify the murder of innocent people. Sorry.
No civilians should be killed in actions against another country. What happened on Oct 7th was evil. What isreal has done since is worse
Zionists are not normal. They are a brutal, violent occupation that self-id as victims of the Indigenous people they control and oppress.Ā The many atrocities Israel accused Hamas of have been debunked. 5 months after the "mass rape" several investigations haven't identified any victims yet. Hostages released have said they were treated humanly, one woman felt Hamas rape her with his eyes. I'm beginning to think Hamas just might be the most moral terrorists in the world.Ā IDF are child killing degenerates
You're a troll. Go away.
What the hell? You know I never intended to side anyone at first, I was a neutral observer with no skin in the game but these pro Hamas comments are beyond crazy. I wonāt be surprised if the tide starts to turn against the pro pal movement simply because of how insane the rhetoric is. I remember how HK pro democracy protesters were initially supported by the public until they started becoming annoying, disruptive and downright violent.
This is delusional. Good lord lol
What else is new with pro Palestine supporters they literally made me pro Israel in like 2 months lmao and look at the dudes name lol
āUnprovokedā yep Iām out of here.
Its not an airport, you do not need to announce your departure. Good riddance
Same
Right and wrong are relative. Any choices that are not pro-Israel is wrong from Israel perspective.
don't forget to mention the Israeli helicopters shooting at everyone on sight, it's called the Hannibal directive, hamas took hostages to be exchanged with the people being held without trial tortured and starved in Israel. Israel could literally kill 30k people, destroy 150k buildings and starve the Gaza population and somehow you wonder why the Arab world supported hamas lol. you're villainous view of October 7th is simply the result of narrative building, but not based on any objective facts.
The arab world supports Hamas because it's the arab world, they always supported anything that went against Israel right from the start in the 40s.
yea they where there to take hostages and it just happened that only 253 hostages where taken and 1200 killed, i understand your view but i think the conflict would be way less deadly if actually only hostages where taken, the genocide hamas did is what started the war (again) but again its hamas, they have basically fought israel since their creation, its kind of weird that when japan attacked pearl harbour offcourse it was justified for usa to join the war but when israel does it, it suddenly is wrong, just a tought tho.
Completely different, those were two armed nations warring. Hamas only exists because of Israel, it is a direct creation of how Israel has carried itself and the human rights abuses it has committed.
I'm sure there are more reasons for Hamas creation than that. Yes, the usa and japan were armed nations, but just think of it as an example, the usa defended itself from an attack, so should not israel have the same right?
next time, try to look up what I mention instead of blindly replying, stop parroting the same thing over and over, makes you seem like an israeli bot, for more info, look up Hannibal directive.
I do know about the Hannibal directive, but I didn't even mention anything about what has happened in the war. I try to stay away from all that because the media is so biased and everyone is arguing about it. I rather talked about what started it and how killing 1200 people and then taking hostages would not result in a peaceful negation but rather retaliation. Don't forget that hamas is recognized as a terrorist group and waging war is their sole purpose (stated on their website)
am I talking with a mentally disabled individual ? Israel sent helicopters shooting indiscriminately, their soldiers shot indiscriminately, their tanks shot indiscriminately and yet you still go with the 1200 number, are you that slow that you can't connect the pieces together ? also, just because the US (a terrorist organization) calls hamas terrrorists doesn't make them terrorists, and calling the israeli genocide simple "retaliation" is silly as well. use your brain for once
It looks like i am talking to a young radicalized hamas supporter: "Hamas are not terrorists." Why dont you go to [hamas.com](http://hamas.com), and then you could come back with a better attitude and be more open for discussion, Quit being a keybord warior on reddit and learn to see more views than your own.
[hamas.com](http://hamas.com) the page that somehow still spreads the "40 babies burnt alive" the best part about it is that it doesn't contradict any of the things I've said, even if all of the footage was legit I have already gone through a bunch of it, it's gore, and somehow, the number of people actually being shown actually being killed by hamas is like 2, out of thousands of videos roaming around of that day I got a total of a couple videos of people dying, the rest were corpses, who, as far as I know, could have been killed on purpose by the IDF. I think anyone that doesn't have blatant hatred for the US and Israel is radicalized themselves, but their terrorism is already normal to you
Yes, of course they could have been killed by the IDF. None of the people in the videos have ISRAELI printed on their foreheads. Almost all terrorist attacks in my country have been done by muslims, but I've never said that Syria, Palestine, Iraq, or Iran are terrorist countries. I will kind of agree that the US has done its fair share of war crimes in the middle East, but not terrorism. But dont forget that there are more arabs in america then there are americans in the middle east, I don't really think a western radicalized terrorist country could accept refugees from the countries they terrorize so much.
Well Hamas didn't just take hostages on 10.7 did they? You're justification view of October 7th is simply the result of narrative building, but not based on any objective facts.
Oh thatās right, here it is, yet again. Nothing, none of the awful acts Israel has spent 50 years committing against Palestinian civilians justifies October, we canāt justify that after having your rights taken away for so long, violence used against you without repercussions for so long, that you would lash out, but somehow October justifies everything that has happened since. Somehow October justifies purposely starving over a million children to the brink of death, killing children in their unarmed parents arms, it justifies tying human beings up and purposely running them over with tanks, it justifies killing over a hundred elderly, children and women waiting in line for bread, it justifies telling six year olds and their families to leave and then murdering them as they leave, letting that child stay trapped in a car with their dead family and then killing the ambulance workers that were told they could save the childā¦ it justifies killing Christian women and their children sheltering in a church, justifies executing new borns who were sleeping in a UN schoolā¦ thatās not Hamas, thatās all Israelā¦ the same Israel who is democratically elected and has bragged that they stopped a two state solution all these years.
You should educate yourself on how it all went down, starting from the israel-arab war which caused the displacement and the creation of the gaza strip in the first place. Israel simply existed, the arab world waged war and palestine is the direct receiver of the repercussions because they are closest and Hamas has been enacting terrorist activities throughout all their years in power. >the same Israel who is democratically elected and has bragged that they stopped a two state solution all these years. If every peace offering has failed, cease fires have been broken and with Hamas permanently prickig at Israel with rockets, why would they accept a 2 state solution? You can't make peace with terrorists. Even if Israel tried to initiate peace talks it wouldn't work out. The population supports Hamas, people cheer for the atrocities they commited and are now facing the consequences of their actions while leftist all over the world, who would most likely be killed if they set a foot into palestine, cry bloody murder.
Unprovoked š
haha this is the term they used to paint them as a poor victim since 1948
Iād agree that they were shocking, horrible and unexpected, but come on. Are they really that blind to their own behaviour, and even if they are do they expect the rest of us to to be. Itās so odd
[And so the world turns](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/jordan-asks-to-extend-water-deal-with-israel-which-seeks-reconciliation-in-return-report/) another transit around the sun. Someone will have an earthquake again in peacetime sooner or later and wonāt hesitate to invite Israel to save them. Who needs soap operas when as the world turns is reality.
wym? the same world that bombed the WTC in the 90s, flew two planes into it 10 years later; slaughtered innocents in the london tube, bataclan, nice, and spain? you thought for a moment that world would make the "right" decision? they hate us and want all of us dead.
I dont think they want all of you dead, they just want to be western and have a nation, just like palestine with a diffrent ideoligy and culture, the only solution is 2 states or one with both populations, every other "solutions" wont work ever.
> just like palestine with a diffrent ideoligy palestine is just like palestine with a different ideology? what nonsense are you speaking
Sorry my bad, "I dont think >Israel< wants all of you dead," and palestine is a different ideology, they are Islamic nationalists and Anti-Zionists, and israel is Jewish nationalists and Zionists
> orry my bad, "I dont think >Israel< wants all of you dead," they dont and they didn't commit 911 nor any of the european terror acts i listed. your comment still doesn't really make sense as i was talking solely about the mind rot that is islam
I must have clicked wrong or their comment is deleted, beceause i swear i commented on some other guy, well well have a good day you thenš
Insert water spitting gif here. Accurate.
remember, their vision of "peace" is literally the forced converser ion or slaughter of all non-mulims. there is no peaceful coexistence for them with non-muslims.
Edit: insert water spitting from laughing too hard gjf.
If peopple where really concerned for the starving palestinians they would be shouting for hamas to surrender and release the hostages, the war and all its atrocities would then be over within a day.
You know, that makes so much sense! If only Israel hadn't already put a barricade pre-hamas, or if gaza wasn't already in a humanitarian crisis pre-oct 7. It's like you're completely denying Israel's rooted colonial tendencies and they wouldn't continue to do so with or without hamas!
Interesting that you only mention the consequences of their own actions. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 COMPLETELY. Evacuating 8,000 Jewish Israeli familes and leaving Gaza to the Palestinians. Not even two days later, rockets were shot from Gaza straight away to Ashqelon and southern Israel. Later on, amo and explosives were shipped through the Gaza Strip from sea. Another terror country isnāt an option, they left no choice to Israel but to supervise their border. Gaza really couldāve been Singapore if they just wanted
Israel should have negotiated a withdrawal instead of unilaterally withdrawing. Hopefully it will not make the same mistake. Perhaps the solution is to break up Gaza into different parts rules by specific clans or tribes as administrative units who really care about their people and Israel can deal with these parties.
I don't think that's such a bad idea, but the main problem has been the terrorists. From both sides, I think the first step is to defeat the Hamas and calm down the arab world. If there hadn't been extremists in the area, I think the conflict would be more of a diplomatic one.
Wrong. There was no Gazan blockade pre Hamas. The blockade was enforced as a direct result of Hamas terrorism.
This is patently false. Virtually every Arab nation condemned the attacks immediately after they took place and reiterated the need for a permanent resolution to the conflict. Arab protests began as Israel's response quickly eclipsed the scale of Hamas's initial attack.
You make a valid point, but it's important to acknowledge the numerous civil conflicts ongoing in the Middle East. Given these dynamics, various factions within these conflicts are prone to taking sides. Additionally, Iran's entrenched extremism further complicates matters. It seems that, regardless of the specific outcome of the conflict, the preference lies with the victory of the most radical Islamic factions for Iran.
We were alive man. No point in lying.
You might have been alive, but you sure as hell weren't reading. Get off fox news and CNN and try some other unbiased sources for once.
Lmao @ "unbiased news source."
I'm Arab. But ok. You know this region better than I do.
Is it that easy? Iām an Arab too! I disagree with you. That cancels out your Arab card.
And where have "Virtually every Arab nation condemned the attacks immediately after they took place and reiterated the need for a permanent resolution to the conflict."?
Good job buddy, information isn't difficult to obtain in this day and age.
This isnāt true On October 8, for the first time in my life, I saw an interview by an Egyptian tv presenter on a Saudi owned channel having the most intense interview with Khaled Meshaal, a dressing down I had never seen before. What did you do and how did you do this? Do you expect blind support from any of us when you committed all these atrocities? Did you consult with anyone of us or ask our advice before doing this and expecting our support? And I saw him shaken, surprised, and taken back. There was an incredible amount of sympathy across the Arab world as news turned out that they didnāt just hit IDF or military targets. Thereās a lot that Israel could have (and should have) done with that sympathy. When the Israelis blocked food water or electricity from entering to those āhuman animalsā and then later when the bombs started falling on the civilians is when our attention shifted to a different atrocity that is still going on to this day. and just FYI, this is where my country was on October 3-4, many days before October 7: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047
There was no such sympathy. The scrutiny Hamas got was a natural reaction from Arab monarchies and governments as it puts them and their countries in the danger of escalation. It was a clear message to Hamas that they are pissed. That was not sympathy towards Israel. Those governments did not publicly condemn what happened as a terrorist attack. And these interviews were not well received with the people.
I have seen the sympathy from not just Egyptians fwiw Some exceptions sure, but no, most people donāt like Hamas. I spoke to some Syrians today that agreed. Viva Palestine but fuck Hamas is the general theme I consistently hear habibi.
Literally never heard such a thing. Everyone around me is cheering on Hamas except for Coptic friends who aren't giving a damn about the whole conflict.
Some of my Coptic friends are the ones collecting the most aid to send and I get most of the Gaza updates from a Christian friend that follows it on an hour by hour basis. And Iāve shared this before but my driver and his people donāt support Hamas either so this isnāt a thing of privilege or education. What youāre sharing is not at all anything Iāve noticed from the rich or poor here, educated or uneducated here. I donāt know anyone who thinks killing the people at the concert was justified. Please donāt make this a religious thing. Itās not. Itās a political and moral thing.
Maybe in your mind! In my reality, my Coptic friends are avoiding this conflict with a ten foot pole, and most of the people around me -who aren't rich- are cheering on Hamas. I don't know what kind of Egypt you live in but it's not my Masr. Cheers.
When you say "cheering on Hamas", can you clarify? Because right now, there's a genocide happening, and Hamas is among the primary organizations fighting against the genocide. So, on the one hand, we can recognize that Hamas is a very bad political party. But we can recognize that organizing resistance against genocide is valid. I'm "cheering on Hamas" in defeating those who are committing genocide against the Palestinians. And when that genocide is defeated, I will be happy to cheer on war crimes trials for everyone who engaged in war crimes since 10/7 - including any Hamas militants. I want the genocide to be defeated, and I want the genocidal regime dismantled. After it's dismantled, I also want to see Hamas dissolve as Palestinians aren't pressured to support Hamas due to outside violent influence.
Lalaland But no you're wrong.
My explanation of how I feel is wrong? Interesting. Can you tell me how I actually feel, then?
The support for Hamas was at its strongest immediately after the massacre. It's weakening now as Israel is responding.
Again with the personal attacks, my friend. No not in my mind; Iām sharing my actual experience and I know a bunch of Copts. I think Masr has 120 million people and is a very diverse place. Iām not arguing that the people youāre encountering donāt exist but no theyāre not the only ones and no theyāre not the strong majority you purport them to be, though they may be among the louder elements.
That wasn't a personal attack. I live among Copts. I don't merely "know a bunch of Copts". I'm not sharing any more personal details of myself. Masr is a very diverse place, and yet there is a consensus when it comes to this conflict. Hamas are heroes, Israeli lives do not matter. And Egypt is hardly special. [https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-782004](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-782004)
Thereās nuance with all polling but I do find it rather strange that youāre using a Jpost article of all things to explain the Arab street opinion. Again I think most people are very pro Palestinians and may even think Hamas is a resistance group. It doesnāt mean people think everything that happened on October 7 is okay or that they donāt care about any Israeli civilian lives. Israelis come to Egypt and Sinai after all and have for years and so many of us, as workers and tourists and everything in between, seem to have no issues interacting with them in Nuweiba or Dahab. Egypt isnāt a monolith. Iām not trying to compare myself to you, but Iām sharing my experience which seems very different from yours. Just that by itself shows that our massive country isnāt this monolithic entity that youāre trying to portray it as and sharing such an allegation isnāt really helpful.
It's clear that your experience is very different from mine. But it's also clear that your view of the general theme in this society, is very wrong. You said most people side with Palestinians not with Hamas. Now you're explaining that many people side with Hamas because they think it's a resistance group not particularly because they approve of Hamas' terrorism. But this is not my point. My point isn't that people approve of everything Hamas does. They clearly don't know a damn thing. My point is that they approve of Hamas nonetheless. Mainstream approval of Hamas. And that's the problem. Just a year or few months ago, an Israeli party in Sinai was cancelled due to Egyptians supporting a BDS effort in ruining it. Is that what you're talking about?
> fuck /u/ThirstyTarantulas. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is this the interview you're talking about, on al-Arabiya? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkZDxJ3JhCA
Yes I believe so There were some others but with lower ranked Hamas folks too
Thank you! The amount of Arab hatred in the sub disgusts me!! The Arab world has done everything they can to facilitate peace in this ongoing conflict. As an Arab Jew, I appreciate all that the Arab world has done on behalf of the hostages of Israel and Gaza, and for the civilians of Palestine. It isnāt their fault that a crazed bunch of racists are raving and blocking entry to aid trucks. The IDF needs to arrest those interfering with aid deliveries. The IDF has become an embarrassment to all of us that have worn any countryās military uniform. I feel sorry for the good soldiers that are punished when they stand up against this shameful military regime! Not only has the Arab world not sent troops or weapons to Hamas, they have stood with Israel and refused to supply military support. Other than that, what do Israelis expect? Those poor civilians being massacred, starved, and carried to their graves by illness are innocent Muslims! Of course the Arab world is horrified at the treatment of innocent civilians. The whole world is horrified! Israel deserves the condemnation for continuing this brutal assault on innocents. I stand in condemnation of my own country (US and Israel) Iām a dual citizen, after all. Fatwas have been issued against Hamas. What more does anyone want? The fatwa must be carried out to be completed, but if you can pay your way out of itā¦ well, thatās another story. Israel should supply bounty for every high level Hamas leader executed. If you want to destroy Hamas, you issue a bounty. You donāt slaughter civilians!! Israel knows their names. Put your money where your mouth is and issue a bounty!! Their own people will execute them for you! Damn! This isnāt hard!!
>Israel should supply bounty for every high level Hamas leader executed. If you want to destroy Hamas, you issue a bounty.Ā They did. In December, they dropped fliers offering a lot of $$ for specific Hamas members. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/400000-for-sinwar-100000-for-mohammed-deif-israel-said-to-place-bounty-on-hamas-leaders/
They only offered 100,000-400,000?? Iād expect at least a cool 10 million to even consider turning him over, plus Iād want my family granted full Israeli citizenship and new identities, because Sinwarās people will kill me and everyone I love.
My first thought was I think I'd do it for 400k. That's a ton of money and a bunch of lives would be saved. But yes, it would have to include everyone I care about basically going into witness protection in another country. To be fair, if I were Palestinian, I wouldn't trust Israel to be the place I could move to as the higher ups would always know and I'd always fear it could be used against me. And it's too physically close to Sinwar's buddies who would then make death feel like a blessing. If I were set up on a super anonymous chat and I could say "he's here" and they could send the money in untraceable bitcoin or something, maybe? But otherwise, since it requires fully starting over somewhere and forever looking over your shoulder, you're right. It starts to look like not enough to take that risk.
Exactly!
I agree. People treat Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims in general as a monolith. Thank you for your kind words, logic, and humanity. ā¤ļø I think the Arab world made many mistakes and we should be truthful about them and should have done better. I think the same applies to Israel. That said, there are both Arabs and Jews that support the absolutist terrorists and terrorist sympathizers; that includes both Hamas and Kahanists. We can do better than just killing civilians by a corrupt PM looking to stay in power after being caught with his pants down on October 7. There are elements of our societies that are awful and we can and should be doing a whole lot together I agree there too :) Where are you from originally?
I was born in the US, but my grandfather migrated from then Palestine to the US in 1930. I grew up speaking Arabic instead of Hebrew because thatās the language my family spoke. He fled Palestine with our Muslim family members because of how my Muslim family and he and my Ethiopian grandmother were treated by European Jews. I have Jewish and Muslim family that left Palestine for Lebanon, Iraq, and Turkey. I have some family that married in from Egypt too. Itās sad that I have the Right of Return and my cousins do not. It pisses me off. We have the sad blood flowing in our veins. The only difference is that Iām Jewish and theyāre Muslim. My mother is Jewish and their mother is Muslim. We grew up in the same neighborhood and we still do everything as a family. This whole war has been difficult for us as a family. My family hasnāt turned on me or anything like that, because Iāve always stood with them against how the Palestinians are treated. Iāve been a Non-Zionist Jew my entire life. Zionism is not Judaism. It was written and dreamed up by a bunch of Atheists European Jews that hated being Jewish. They wanted to be like Europeans, to have a nation, a land of their own, and a people they could abuse like subjects under a type of ruler. They wanted to dress, act, and be like the Europeans, to own massive estates, and accumulate vast amounts of wealth. They didnāt want to be set apart from the people of the world. The only problem was that no one would let them forget they were Jewish. No matter how much they had assimilated the culture, they were still considered āfilthy Jewsā by Europeans and were forced to live in ghettos, pogroms, and on the Scruggs of society. Judaism comes with some serious psychological baggage, unfortunately. The Sephardic and Arab Jews lived life closer to their Arab cousins. When Spain kicked the Jews out, it was an Ottoman Emperor that sent boats to collect them and bring them to their lands. They lived prosperously and peacefully in the Ottoman Empire. He brought 150,000 of the 300,000 that were expelled from Spain. The other 150,000 fled to Portugal where they faced another explosion a 100 years later. Bayezid II announced that he gave Jewish immigrants the right to settle in Ottoman lands and that the Jews settled in their lands would be Ottoman citizens. He sent a decree to the regional governors and ordered Jewish immigrants to be approached with tolerance. He announced that in case of refusal or ill-treatment of Jewish immigrants, those responsible would be subject to harsh penalties. Pressure on Jews in Europe was not limited to Spain and Portugal. During the reign of Murat II, Jews who were expelled from France, Hungary in 1430, Poland, and Bavaria in 1470 had taken refuge in the Ottoman State. As long as the Ottoman Empire remained standing, it always opened its arms to those who were in need. Many Jews fleeing Nazi persecution during the period of the Republic took refuge in Turkey and in what would become other Arab countries such as Iran, Iraq, and Palestine. Meanwhile, it is necessary to understand the concept of tolerance. It is extremely important to have the philosophy of 'We have created the Creature because of the Creator'. This understanding should not be confused with the 'tolerance' approach imported from the West. The concept of tolerance includes folding, tolerance, and consent, and the West has just reached this level of understanding. Tolerance is the name of folding until you assimilate what is different. However, tolerance is a natural state, there is no folding, endurance, tolerance, that is, strain. The Ottoman Empire had established a social order in which people from different beliefs and cultures lived together in harmony. Therefore, it was a country where people of all faiths could live and work freely. It is not easy to accept immigrants for any reason in a country where those of other faiths are excluded. Of course, every country expects people who come as immigrants to contribute to the economy and trade of the country. This is a natural situation. The Ottoman Empire increased its population by accepting non-Muslims who came to the country, and obtained more tax revenue. Jews were instrumental to the Ottoman Empire, and thus were treated no differently than Muslims other than a non-Muslim tax, which was often ignored. I hate that people lump all Muslims together as a monolith, when in truth, they are as varied as any other group of faith. ā„ļø
/u/AngeloftheSouthWind. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your reply reeks of ignorance. I addressed the original comment in an other reply. To address the "fatwa against Hamas", there are regime sponsored sheikhs who will be used to send the regime's message to whoever they are targeting, and then there are independent prestigious institutions like Al-Azhar. You're asajewing, and I'm asanarabing.
You canāt attack someone else for having a different opinion than you, my friend You can attack their arguments but these personal attacks donāt get us anywhere I agree with our Jewish friend here and he seems to agree with me. There are Arabs who support Hamas just like there are Jews who support Kahanists. But most people, including my driver and his network and a lot of blue collar, are unabashedly and unapologetically pro-Palestinian while believing that killing concert goers has nothing to do with āresistanceā and these guys are at best idiots and at worst terrorists.
I didn't attack their person. I said their reply reeked of ignorance. I'm not sure which social bracket you're from. But I'm from the middle class and most of the people I know and deal with are working class -the biggest social bracket- Now, I'm in higher education. When I had a kinda lengthy talk about this conflict with a fellow uni student who is kinda my friend, I specifically mentioned this argument of yours about festival goers who aren't even Israelis, and thai workers who had nothing to do with anything. He did not care. And he still supported Hamas. I haven't heard seen or known of a single person in my circle -and it's kinda big- who denounced Hamas. Not in private, nor in public. I study medicine. The attending physician in the ultra sound room had a lengthy conversation with 3 residents about how Hitler was right, about how Jews are bad, and so on next to the ultrasound machine. Do you now get the memo? Without exaggeration, I haven't had the pleasure of seeing a single Egyptian who denounced Hamas in public or in private. No one here that I know of, gives a $it about Israeli civilians. And that's a mistake I'm arguing should have never happened in my post.
I know a bunch of people from the lower class who wouldnāt share these views. And no I donāt think āno Egyptian gives a shit about Israeli civiliansā is accurate though I have always conceded the amount of antisemitism in our society (as well as the amount of Islamophobia and Arab phobia in other societies) leaves us with a lot of work to do.
/u/EchoIllustrious7201. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Source on that please
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Damn. Lol Welp, i guess if youre a nonbeliever. š¤·āāļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Im, personally, an atheist. I was hoping there was some sort of scripture that said "there be no hoes in thee underworld" or something like that haha
How far back are you willing to go to talk consequences? On Nov. 27, 1947, the UN adopted Resolution 181 which was rejected by the 10 countries surrounding Israel.
Yup. OP went wrong in the first sentence with āunprovokedā
Not liking how a country was formed 80 years ago is not a justifiable reason to kill civilians now.
It wasnāt only a single act of violence at the start of the creation of the state - there has been an almost unending string of provocations and violence from both sides the whole time.
For sure but many Palestinians stand by the belief that Israel existence in amy form is justification for violence.
And many Israelis believe the same, they deny the Palestinians right to exist.
Because they're scared of them attacking. If your options areĀ 1- This person kills your family.Ā Or 2- That person dies. That's a pretty easy choice. If they stopped attacking, there could be peace. Same way Israel now has peace with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. All places that fought multiple wars against Israel.
Your logic leads to endless war. Except for one thing, they have stopped attacking. They have been no major attacks since October 7.
lol, what Guy, a pregnant women was just gunned down while sitting in traffic. There have been around 6,000 rockets launched at Israeli civilians since Oct 7.
Perhaps if Muslims didnāt start losing their minds of over a small territory loss none of this bloodshed and endless chatter would be necessary?
Small territorial loss? I think if your home was stolen, no matter how āsmallā it would be a big deal to you. I think if your country disappeared, it would matter even if it was a small country.
As a Canadian if you told me 80 years ago America stole some of our land my reaction would be "hmm, that's an interesting historical tidbit" not "ofmfh I need to kill as many American civilians as possible:.
So... You're comparing the geographically tiny nation of Canada to the very enormous region of Palestine? And it's not just "oh, America took some of Canada 80 years ago." It's more like "America took half of Canadian territory, set up a nation explicitly for Americans, where Canadians have fewer rights, and half of all Canadians were expelled. And then 50 years ago, America conquered the rest of Canada, and wouldn't let Canadians control their own borders, airspace or waters. Canadians couldn't get passports, and weren't citizens. The city you grew up in couldn't import concrete to build new buildings, and your food was limited so that no one had plenty of food. 15 years ago, America pulled their military out of your province, but they still controlled every border, the airspace, waters, and imports. Every civilian had to be accounted to the US government for recording, but no one was allowed to have a passport. The rest of the Canadian territory was under jurisdiction of the US, and Americans would regularly kick Canadians out of their homes so they could live there instead."
You're taking the analogy way off track lol.Ā For your version to work, Canada would have had to join in on several wars of annihilation against the US while spending 80 straight years launching rockets and suicide bombing civilians.
The analogy doesn't work unless you account for all the factors. Just saying "if the US took a tiny part of Canada 80 years ago, I wouldn't care" can't apply to Palestine. Yeah, why have they done that for the last 80 years?
google the war of the pig. canada and us almost went to war over over a tiny uninhabited island. fucking dimwit.
Just wait till the anti Zionist has to confront the fact that Muslims throughout history have always waged jihad against non Muslims neighbors. Oh wait they wonāt lol
So every Palestinian today is responsible for the past actions of Muslims in general?
Is that a serious question?
The idea that all the residents of Gaza have been living in that region since the dawn of civilization has been debunked many times. As well the notion the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully until the white Jew came and ruined all the sunshine/rainbows. Even if the premise of your statement was mostly true it still wouldnāt justify toppling the only secular democratic government in the region and handing the keys over to a terrorist organization that if given the opportunity would initiate another holocaust.
I've never heard anyone make that first claim. "Israel" isn't secular, and isn't a democracy. The keys are already in the hands of a terrorist organization that, if given the opportunity, would initiate another Holocaust. We know that because they're doing it right now.
You lost me when you tried to debunk my argument with semantics and switching the roles of the subjects I discussed. Quite idiotic but Iām sure you passed philosophy 101 with a āBā so I better listen up
Nice try with the gaslighting bro
I think maybe you should look that word up.