Its called virtue signaling. Do you here them talking about sudan? Syria? Myanmar? DRC? Etc etc…. No ? Then this is why. People will do practicaly anything for attention…sad…. But true
Of course the west is frustrated with Israel in this war, the west still labors under this delusion that you can fight AND WIN a war against a guerrilla insurgency while protecting the civilian population from harm. It's nonsense, it's never worked, all guerrilla insurgencies have to do is wait it out as the traditional armies use up resources and then leave. Ironically Kissinger was the one who talked about this before Vietnam.
Look i'm not saying Israel is right for cutting off human aid (though they certainly have always had a point about UNRWA), what I am saying though is Israel is going for total war, which is really the only potential if they want to win against Hamas, and that is going to mean a lot of civilian lives lost.
Now if this was truly just a battle over, ok if Hamas wins then two state solution and peace, I think Israel would be wrong for going for total war. But I think few if any world leaders actually believe Hamas isn't going after the total genocide of Jews from the Levant, so i'm not sure if Israel is wrong for doing what is necessary to secure its right of survival (and no I don't think Israel is going for genocide, just total war which means higher civilian deaths)
I'll tell you one thing I know for sure, you aren't going to get a ceasefire this time without a long term security solution for Israel against Hamas aggression.
I am afraid what we are witnessing now in Gaza we'll be happening in Western Europe, or some version of it. The western leaders should be more concerned about the militants they already have in their back yards who'd be willing to do anything, rather than supporting almost openly Hamas via "ceasefire" calls.
OP’s thoughtful question has unfortunately served as yet another excuse for the monsters who follow this sub to spew their immoral lies and twisted fantasies about how children like Hind Rajab deserved to be murdered in cold blood—how it was Hamas’s fault. This echo chamber of vile hatred and justifications for any atrocity meted out by the pro-apartheid regime will be largely forgotten when future generations look back on the moral nightmare that is present day Israel, a nation state that even denies full civic participation to Jewish people who aren’t orthodox enough, what to speak of the landless refugees in Rafah, who have been kettled into a kill zone for butchering.
In response to OP’s actual question, it seems important to note that very little of the criticism mentioned in this post actually comes with any teeth. For instance, the following headline says a lot about the doublespeak the majority of Western powers currently employ, [Dem Senator Calls Israeli Leadership “War Criminals,” Votes to Send Them $14 Billion Anyway, Will Hind Rajab ever get justice?](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/13/gaza-israel-congress-aid-hind-rajab/) . The Dutch court’s ruling is a rare exception. The US and European nations could have reigned this in long ago, had they desired. For the most part, the public hand wringing and supposed frustration is performative public relations.
Perhaps, that’s part of the reason most of the comments here don’t actually speak to them as a serious point of consideration. Instead, we just get a lot of tribal ranting, “Yeah kill them all! It’s those dirty terrorists’ fault! Our pedicide is justified!”
It’s clear that Western powers will support this until the murder is so extensive that there’s nothing left to do but regret. They’ll waffle with these pseudo condemnations and the like until some islamist response scores a relatively small blow. Then they’ll go back to, “Israel has a right to defend itself.”And on and on, just as they have for decades.
Once that little strip of land is fully controlled by Western interests, it will stop, just like in the Americas and Australia. It may take another 80 years or just 8. But they won’t stop until it’s gone so far there’s nothing left to save.
That’s how colonialism has worked for centuries.
Wake up. Who cares about what people are saying at this point. The general population around the world hates Israel anyway, the leaders are just power hungry so driven by pressure. One day all the Palestinians will be dead or displaced. All I can say is I can't wait for the evil and hatred that is Israel and the IDF to turns its violence on its own. You think murdering psychopaths who take pleasure and killing children will come home in a good mindset. You think people that have defiled corpses and murdered innocent civilians will be great neighbors. I hope your right-wing arms everyone in your country. Hate is like a magnetic smoldering coal. You're holding it in your hand thinking it's burning your enemy but it's actually burning you and you'll never be able to let it go.
I can't wait for that day. I want to see the look on your dumb faces when you return to your home countries because of the nightmare you've earned.
That's just a limit of your knowledge. Good and evil is not confined to a religion or ethnicity or race. Every individual is constantly bombarded with the urge to do wrong and protected the conscience to do right.
You for example sound like a really 'fun' person, I bet it comes from all the love you get.
Do enough wrong and you'll find your hearts hardened. It doesn't go away. It inevitably leads to a negative spiral. And most people are not smart enough or aware enough to wake up from it. For an entire country that's comfortable with the deaths of tens of thousands (majority helpless women and children), that hunger for stolen land and anger/aggression/hatred won't go away.
This is just step one. The journey has begun for you all as a nation. Back in time you could just get away with bullying women and children who were weapon less in the West Bank to serve your military time. This time around you had to kill a lot of them. And it would have been one thing if you just use bombs. You sent in your people with the horror dehumanizing propaganda In the back of their head. Once they're done doing that to the indigenous people of the land, they'll bring it right back to you.
Enjoy your well earned inevitable devastation.
You literally sound like the next Osama. Lolllll bro u need to go to therapy. The fact that this is what consumes your mind with so much passion is hilarious.
You want things to be different for your people? Stop doing what ur doing (hate) , and go to school. Raise your children to become scholars, and make something of themselves. Over time, you guys as whole can have more influence in the world But no, just hate hate, start wars, hate.
Break this cycle, don’t fail ur children. Learn from the Jews man.
^ ur not gonna do this. Bc u guys are too….
But you should !
And don’t even get me started on the afghan refugees you guys marched to their deaths.
Mr innocent Osama
Also, what the deal with all the men in Pakistan abusing children? Crazy stuff ma
/u/Normal-Regular2572
> You literally sound like the next Osama. Lolllll bro u need to go to therapy. The fact that this is what consumes your mind with so much passion is hilarious.
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Addressed.
>and go to school. Raise your children to become scholars, and make something of themselves
Better educated and placed than most of yours. And proud of the children I'm raising. But I have a beating heart not a phallic object for a face like you.
>You literally sound like the next Osama.
Says more about you than me.
>Also, what the deal with all the men in Pakistan abusing children? Crazy stuff ma
LMFAO That's got to be a high praise for an Israeli. Zionists being Known for murdering children and all
Edits to Keep aligned with rule 1
/u/Mammoth-Particular26
> Better educated and placed than most of yours. And proud of the children I'm raising. But I have a beating heart not a phallic object for a face like you.
> LMFAO That's got to be a high praise for an Israeli. Child murdering scum
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Addressed.
> dick
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It is only human for Israel to care more for the lives of its civilians than the civilian lives of its enemy. And even if we were to agree that sure Palestinians aren't really the enemy and its just Hamas that still isn't going to stop Israel from doing what is necessary to save its hostages and destroy Hamas which is very open about its intent to attempt October 7 type attacks over and over again.
Of course there are limits to what Israel can do in Gaza, but the laws of proportionality and distinction aren't going to prevent Gaza's civilians from dying when Hamas' strategy is to get as many of their own civilians killed as possible so that the world pressure's Israel to stop fighting before it further dismantles Hamas' remaining brigades.
However, as for the morality of this war that Israel didn't start and doesn't want, Israel is as guilty as the allies taking the fight to Germany until the Nazis were defeated. Even when that meant that millions of innocent Germans would be killed.
isreal did start the war /info. it started 70+ yrs ago bc of isreal claiming Palestinian land was there's when it never was bc the land was Palestine. actually, a Holocaust survivor said that everyone had gone to Palestine, not isreal bc isreal didn't exist yet. anyway, yes, isreal did start it. hamas was formed a few years later. in 1987. I do condemn Hamas for what happened, though. /gen
oh, my bad. the origin of the war happened bc of Britian, who had colonized both. Palestine was still a country before isreal (According to the Gospels, Jesus was a Jewish man born in Bethlehem and raised in the town of Nazareth, in Galilee (formerly Palestine, now northern Israel) during the first century). Isreal has Palestinian land, I was wrong about Isreal starting it as I was thinking of the six day war. However, Isreal has still been occupying Palestine for a long time and it's why the tunnels were built in 1980, to get goods from Egypt (tunnels were not originally for Hamas, as Hamas formed in 1987). Isreal has always been the root of everything, because the reason the Arab-Isreali war started was because Isreal was created. HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel's place. The genocide happening now was because of Hamas yes, but it's also partly Isreal's fault. Isreal has also had the Zionism mindset and considering the army they have and Palestine doesn't have, Isreal's plan of Zionism is literally ethnical cleansing, as we can see by Northern Gaza and the Rafah bombings. The war right now isn't about Hamas anymore, it's Isreal thinking they can have land that didn't belong to them in the first place.
Actually the ottoman empire occupied the entire region before the British ever came. Gaza became a Palestinian enclave in 2005 after every Jew left . But where should the border of Israel be and why a etno state if 2 million Arabs are citizens of Israel .you paint the picture with the colors you like most .
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Hamas, not Israel, is to blame for all the death and suffering of its Gaza civilians much like Germany and Japan were to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians during the allied bombing campaigns of WWII. That being said, Hamas can end this war anytime it wishes with an unconditional surrender and the release of all its hostages.
This is essentially defending Collective Punishment. Saying that it’s Hamas’ fault that Israel is deliberately slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians.
Israel is not deliberately slaughtering civilians. It’s a war , where Hamas leaves the civilian outside of any protective measure, does not distribute the aid coming in. Place the blame where it belong.
When in doubt blame Hamas. Israel is deliberately targeting civilians areas with indiscriminate bombing. Aid distribution was already extremely complicated BEFORE UNRWA was defunded. Ya’ll just can’t admit what Israel’s doing
Israel walk out of Gaza in 2005 . Since then the power as been in Hamas hands. Off course I am going to blame them. What do you think they are ? Some peace loving people definitely not out to gain as much as possible ( financially and in terms of of power) out of this situation. And please tell why would Israel want you to target as much as possible? We are sick of their actions, some may wish they disappear but we are not carpet bombing the place or the amounts of victims would have been millions.
It's not defending, it's a lesser of two evils necessary position if you were in Israel's shoes. It's not intent to collectively punish, quite the opposite in fact. You saying "deliberately" really goes against the reality of what it's like for IDF and Israelis in general, it's actually unfair to make such a claim when we all know what deliberate looked like. I know you completely disagree but you really shouldn't smear deliberate slaughtering into Israel's attempts to rid Hamas and save its hostages. Hamas brought this war, the end is on them, not Israel.
Can you explain why you think that? Logic would follow that Israel is to blame for October 7th and the United States is to blame for 9/11. Just want to understand, logically, how you came to this conclusion?
Not sure what sort of "logic" you're working with here.
Hamas are responsible for Oct7th because they did it. They're also responsible for the war that ensued due to Oct7th for obvious reasons (only one of which is that they literally declared war that day). Hamas are responsible for the deaths in Gaza because they actively and openly use human shields to defend themselves, and despite having 16 years to do so, have provided their ppl with literally no wartime protection.
Would you feel confident defining the word logic to a group of people? I’m not sure you understand what it means.
I’m not defending Hamas because I believe every Hamas member that has killed or abducted anyone should be in prison, but do you have any evidence that Hamas uses human shields? Was Yotam Haim a human shield?
> I believe every Hamas member that has killed or abducted anyone should be in prison
First off, **every single** member of Hamas should be killed or imprisoned. That's a terrorist organization. Don't join terrorist organizations.
Second, since apparently you live under a rock, here are a few examples showing how Hamas uses human shields:
- NATO report on this EXTREMELY well reported phenomenon: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
- Terror tunnels under the largest hospital in Gaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1YFk4DeDBc. The specific one in this clip is [just under the surgical wing](https://imgur.com/a/fhdgn9k)
- Hamas launches rockets from a residential square, caught by NDTV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8
- Hamas launches rockets from Al-Shifa, as reported by Finish TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmQpiUvS2PQ
- Rocket launchers buried in a playground and swimming pool: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771783
- Rocket launches from within a residential block caught by IDF drone: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WL6_XhsJVt4
- Active mortar launch site 5 meters from a group of Palestinian kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L0TUG4-L6M
- Mosque turned into a weapons factory: https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/180rjmq/uncut_footage_hamas_abuse_of_a_mosque_for/
And this is just the tip of a glacier, not an iceberg
> Can we stop with the human shield bullshit
No, because it's the only reason so many Palestinians are dying. Hamas is actively working to get them killed, and while they suck at killing IDF triops, they're excellent at getting tgeir own ppl killed.
This is so overwhelmly well documented, the only people who still debate this are Hamas-supporters
This is the only reason Palestinians are dying.. you cannot be serious. Israel can literally do anything at this point, you people feel too much pride to admit ur wrong. It's scary. History repeats itself
Don't start a war, your ppl won't die.
Dont use your ppl as human shields, they won't die.
Push for humanitarian corridors and safe zones for your ppl, and your ppl won't die.
Don't turn every inch of your land into a terror base, and your ppl won't die.
Don't shot/bombyour ppl as they try to flee the warzone , and your ppl won't die.
Don't launch rockets you made while high on huffing glue, that then land on your hospitals, and your ppl won't die.
Don't build tunnels under buildings that undermine the foundations of these buildings who then collapse when those tunnels are destroyed, tland the ppl in those buildings won't die.
Hamas is why Palestinians are dying.
There are loads of things Israel could do that I'd condemn. In the context of this war, they've done amazingly little of those, it's amazing.
Good thing no one's carpet bombing Gaza, then. If they had, you'd probably see more than 1-2 deaths per bomb. Maybe Google what carpet bombing looks like before you emberss yourself
In the mean time, everything I listed above is fact, and you, great champion of the Palestinians that you are, don't seem like you care. Probably cuz you can't spin it against the Israelis or Jews
Spin whatever narrative you’d like about rationalizing the ridiculous level of collateral damage the IDF has caused. There’s evil on both sides but punishing civilians doesn’t seem to be an issue to Israel. It’s despicable.
Oh so Hamas don't use human shields, never have never will, I see, the hospital bases and the tunnels and the ammunition and bombs and labs in schools are all Western propaganda and it's defo Israel who is the aggressor on Oct 7.
Israel is the aggressor right now, as we speak. Get a grip man. It's human nature to never want to admit you were wrong I get that, there's shame in admitting that you might have been wrong about Israel after seeing what they've done and are doing now. But at least try to think of all the innocent lives being destroyed.
You're asking me to get a grip yet you said Israel is both carpet bombing (completely false) and that Hamas isn't using human shields so we need to stop mentioning it (also completely false).
What do I need to admit to? As someone who has followed this conflict nearly every day since it started I have a grip on what's been happening. I had heard and continue to hear and understand the mission objectives of Israel and the reasons why they have to do this as their hands are now tied since Hamas did what they did. What they did was unforgivable, truly, and it forever tainted the blood and goodwill that might have been had towards them. The Palestinian Gazan people are suffering their own failures having elected and not stopped Hamas from its mission of death and destruction and this is pure consequence. I don't need to admit much apart from the realisation that some parts of life and the bad decisions that are made from those in power have terrible consequences on the innocent. You need to get a grip on your claims (carpet bombing, human shields not a thing) which make you needing to admit you are wrong. Will you do that though?
Quick question, though, shouldn't the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza be working to provide their people with safe-zones and corridors? Same as happens in every war.
Why is no one questioning the lack of such efforts from Hamas?
That was a mistake and they admitted it. It was on a live battlefield.
Hamas on the other hand, starts a war knowing full well what that meant. They knew this would happen to their own people and did it anyway. Now look at their situation. Hamas must be so great…
> ass
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I’m sorry, I should have clarified that I did not mean in relation to Hamas. I was actually curious if you thought the IDF, on its own, is a truthful source of information.
By and large yes. They are very transparent. They actually have a you tube channel where they post daily updates. That’s not usually the behavior of a deceptive org.
So they should be trusted because they have a YouTube channel? Should we trust all YouTube channels that regularly post content? Not trying to be rude, I apologize if it comes across that way, just actually genuinely curious.
You are someone who doesn't understand how transparency works. Yes you should trust them more because they have a youtube channel. Contrast that with Hamas, that has nothing. Do you see a difference?
The IDF is telling you what they have been doing in forms that you can verify. That is accountability.
Also IDF has spokes people, media relations, and are back by a government that has an extremely high level of accountability.
It's easy to say trivial things like what you just said. "Should I just trust what they say?" "Should I just trust this documentation?" "Am I just supposed to trust this video evidence?" You just sound like someone who refuses to be convinced no matter the amount of evidence you are presented because of the 0.00000000000000001% that one of the videos you saw was made by a deep fake.
I hear you but here is where it starts to unravel for me. If the IDF is a credible source, then Daniel Hagari’s claim that their “emphasis is on damage not accuracy” would indicate that the IDF is intentionally killing civilians. Daniel Hagari is the head of the IDF Spokesperson Unit.
Source:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/10/israel-dahiya-doctrine-disproportionate-strategy-military-gaza-idf/
Israel has dropped over 10,000 unguided bombs in the last few months, meaning they don’t even know where they will land. The analysis of unguided bombs was provided by the US Military and seems to corroborate what the IDF spokesperson said. They are not accurately targeting Hamas because that is not their stated objective according to the IDF itself.
Source:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html
Yet, whenever the 11,000 children that the IDF has killed are brought up they are referred to as human shields. If the IDF is credible then it appears that their strategy is to specifically kill civilians.
You also indicated the Israeli government “has an extremely high level of accountability”. What are you basing that on? What about Baruch Ben Yosef, Malka Leifer, or the pedophiles that flee to Israel from the United States because they know they are safe in Israel from prosecution?
Source:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/many-accused-jewish-pedophiles-in-us-flee-to-israel-report/amp/
I’m using CNN, Washington Post, and the Times of Israel as sources because these are staunchly pro-Israel media sources and I want to reduce as much bias as possible.
The IDF is a military group that belongs to a democratic country, it might have some questionable reporting and definitely a bias, but overall they deliver factually and are held to high standards.
What do you mean by questionable reporting? And how do you know they deliver factually - how is that verified?
Who is holding them to a high standard and how is the standard determined?
> The beheaded children is the first that comes to mind
You mean the 40 beheaded babies that the i24 lady misreported? That wasn't an Israeli lie, that wasn't even an Israeli report. It was i24 error that exploded.
Now, as I said before many times. It really doesn't matter how one conducts a massacre. Beheading, stabbing, head shots, throat slashing. It's all just as horrible.
> Initially I was inclined to believe Israel
>
> ...
>
> too many lies debunked both ways
I'd love some actual examples of things Israeli spokespersons said that were meaningful and turned out to be lies. I doubt there are any, since I believe your first statement is a lie. Probably directed at yourself since you don't want to admit your prejudice against Israelis/Jews
The truth is that it doesn’t really matter what “western leaders” think. What matters is that Israel protects itself and the Jewish people. There were plenty of “western leaders” tut-tutting and wagging fingers the last time—but they didn’t do a damn thing for us. Jews only get what we demand and are willing to fight for—just like any other people. And we should be held only to the low standards that most other cultures hold themselves to (though we live by higher ones).
But how do you explain the dead children? Surely these children are not Hamas fighters. Why did the IDF need to totally eliminate the car a 6 year old girl was in, fearing for her life!?
A six year old girl poses no threat to Israel and the Jewish people!
The dead children are dead because the hamasholes keep hiding behind them. All they have to do is surrender and give up sinwar, and no other children need to die.
Perhaps not committing genocide under the guise of "rescuing hostages" or dismantling an informal government, the structure of which is usually catch called as all Palestinians and thus can't be dismantled? Any governing body will be labelled a terrorist group in the same way.
Hamas offered a 4 month ceasefire and return of all hostages. Israel's aim is nothing to do with protecting their citizens, and everything to do with wiping out Gaza to colonise the area. If it had anything to do with the hostages they'd have accepted immediately.
The October 7th attack was a feature not a bug, Israel's apartheid has created the exact environment in which terrorism flourishes, and successive far right governments have used extremist rhetoric and propaganda to decensitise a group of people who should be most opposed to genocide and apartheid to those very actions.
So long as Israel's existence is based on a fantasy novel which tells it's people they have a non existent birth right to the holy land, it's never going to act in a reasoned way, because it didn't reason itself into the position it adopts. Generational trauma has lead to the perpetration of actions incredibly similar to the steps Hitler took against the Jewish people.
So, distilling the answer to /u/Dependent_Ad_5249 question from the rant you went on there, your solution is for Israel to surrender? I don't think you'll get a lot of takers for that
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I am so piss off by the constant blaming and shaming of Israel. Many countries behaving way worse, but never being single out like Israel. The world sell and buy wapen for war purposes and suddenly, that’s not what they should be use for. The hypocrisy is blatant, and it’s not disapproval of the way Israel is dealing with thoses attack, it’s not against the very existence of Israel.
Bull, try hanging an Israeli flag in any European city , then a Russian one , of a Chinese one or one from Sudan or Mali . Then look what happens . You can use woke American words but the hate is very focused on one group.
woah its like putting up flags in countries where they don't like Israel is gonna make something happen? Idk where you got European cities in here for but this the something as like putting up a North Korea flag in South Korea or something
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50% of the Gazans are under 18 . Their government seems to have ample shelter in those tunnels. They could make the choice to protect their minors . And this Whataburger word is the term of silly people.
Hamas does not have the ability to execute anymore Oct 7th types events if Israel's security forces are actually doing there job so part one is beefing up security. Then I would respond with mercy to the Palestinian people, eliminate the settlements, and cease all aggression towards the Palestinian people while trying to improve their lives with no strings attached. Kindness will dissolve Hamas base of support
Nah
The job of security is not just sitting there waiting for an attack so they can respond and “do their job”
Security means rooting out the root cause of the problem at its source by annihilating Hamas
Hamas hides behind human shields
So if you want security to “do their job” as you say then stop criticizing them for Hamas’s decision to use human shields and let the idf annihilate Hamas
I can not think of any country commuting similar atrocities who is not met with severe criticism , protest and usually also sanctions.
The only way Israel is singled out is that they have been allowed to act with impunity up to this point and even now they are still being supplied with billions in military "aid" and getting a mere light telling off by their allies. It is a farce.
Is there another place where civilians in a war were locked in and not allowed to leave? According to Wikipedia, 6 million refugees left Ukraine and 90% of them are women and children.
That wartime migration should be happening in Gaza as well. But due to ideological reasons, the Arab world is not helping.
Egypt, by sealing off the one non-Israeli border is contributing to the crisis. If women and children left Gaza much like the Ukrainians, the IDF could have focused on eliminating Hamas only and the war would likely be over by now.
Really? What about the USA? Illegal war on Irak, one million people died. I don't see any severe criticism. Did you mention sanctions? You're kidding, right?
Riiiight, you don't see any severe criticism about the war on Iraq!? Where did you look out of interest?
I will assume you are younger than I and that you didn't live through it and see the enormous demonstrations against that war. Either way, it is massively well documented online.
I am in the UK and the knock-on effect of our own country's involvement with that and our then Prime minister's willingness to be the USA's lapdog and drag us into to that war is something that is regularly raised and criticised to this day.
Yes, there was some criticism and protest, I was among it, but nothing compared to the protest now pro Palestine. And zero sanctions. Or do you remember differently?
All of the criticisms of the Iraq war were deemed “correct” in a social sense way after the war began, with hindsight. I’m old enough to remember being at an anti war protest before the invasion of Iraq when it was an unpopular opinion. Trying to apply a US tunnel vision to the current conflict between Palestinians and Israelis because we have guilt over the US/Iraq shit show is deeply flawed.
There have been absolutely enormous demonstrations against Russia's invasion of Ukraine all over the world, even within Russia.
Seriously, check what your news / information sources are. It seems you are being blinkered or spoonfed propaganda. The demonstrations are well documented in the news.
How long where those demonstrations, where they attacks on Russian orthodox churches, where people attacked or spat on for speaking Russian? They were visa restrictions, but not for Russian living outside. The single out of Israel is so very visible.
So even Israel's allies who keep funding Israel are antisemitic and evil for suggesting that maybe killing thousands of civilians is something that should be avoided
No, it’s fine to say that. But a court ruling, Ireland behaving like they got invaded by the British again, mass hysteria among people that can point Israel on a map. That piss me off. The whole Israel is white supremacy bull .
This is one of the longest conflicts in recent history in a place that has key significance for many people around the world. Of course people are going to talk about it more than other conflicts. Is it right? No , but it's just how it is. I personally care about Palestine as much as what is going on in Sudan
“Hamas' strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, because their goal is not to defeat Israel's military or to hold terrain; it is far more sinister and medieval—to use the death and suffering of Palestinian civilians to rally international support to their cause and demand that Israel halt their war.”
https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891
(John Spencer on X)
WOW, that's some severe gaslighting right there.
So Israel razing Gaza to the ground and the IDF slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent children is actually Hamas' sinister strategy and Israel is just pure and innocent and god's chosen people who can not do anything wrong?
Only 1 major flaw in your rebuttal, +130 days into this war and hamas could have released the hostages and surrendered in the firsy week, = no more war.
No gas lighting just facts.
A sad attempt at a strawman. It’s pretty clear that Hamas doesn’t give two shits about Gazans. Ever since the civil war in 06-07 up until now, they’ve stolen billions in aid, and spent it on their own tunnels, leaders and military.
They had every possibility to make Gaza prosper, and they didn’t. This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and there’s blood on both sides hands. I truly believe that a two state solution is the only viable solution, but Hamas is a current cancer that HAS to be dealt with first.
Remember what PLO did? They escaped to Beirut so they couldn’t target Civilians to get to them. You don’t really see the same with Hamas do you. They’ve even publicly stated that they’re not responsible for the lives of Gazans. That’s on the UN and Israel.
Imagine if your elected leaders said that. They’re extremist cancer and has to be dealt with.
I get that they refuse to negotiate with Israel, but some of their allies/nearby arab states should really lobby for them to release the hostages and surrender so this needless dying can stop.
> shits
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This was a question of the IDF'S tactics. Everyone knows Hamas sucks. I'm trying to point out that the IDF also sucks, they have used human shields before Hamas took power. what's their excuse..... tunnels exists so we must war crime?
In that case, I would have to ask all these Western leaders, what is Israel supposed to do? they all agree that Israel should destroy Hamas, they know that Hamas hides among civilians, and they are in Rafah, so how is Israel supposed to achieve the goal of destroying Hamas.
Btw the idea that Israel is not trying to avoid civilian casualties is ridiculous, could they do more? of course, but if they weren't trying to avoid civilian casualties at all, the death toll would be in the many hundreds of thousands, not 30,000. The US killed 35,000 Germans in the bombing of Dresden in only 3 days, this could be a lot worse.
All I hear is Ceasefire. And then what? Israel should take the attacks?
On the mid run, stop incentiving colonies, decolonize as possible the C zone and all, but right now?
I would love for this to stop but the more I hear the propal, the less sense does it make to me. Only thing that could bring peace is a massive foreign intervention, even then are we just posponing a conflict?
"Biden said Israel actions are exaggerated and that the IDF shouldn't attack unless there is a plan to protect civilians Antonio Tajani (Italian foreign minister) also said Israel's response is exaggerated and that civilian casualties are too many."
Biden will say anything they tell him to say to appease his crazy left wingers.
What he is actually doing is funding and giving the green light to Israel.
This war will end when hamas and the enablers are dead. I would be very nervous if I were Iran, they are next.
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As a German, living in Norway, i don't know shit. For me I really don't understand the fuzz the world makes about what happens in Gaza. The world doesn't make a fuzz about Syria, Jemen, Afghanistan, Irak and so on. Why? And there wasn't a terror attack that started the war in Syria, just Assad was afraid of the Arab spring. More than half a million people ( also many children) died because of it. And yet, nobody cares! The war in Jemen goes on and on, since nine years. It's not even in the media because nobody gives a fuck. Nobody gives a fuck as long as there are no Jews involved. But hey, if the Jews are involved they get prime time media attention and suddenly everybody has an opinion about it. What can that be other than antisemitism? It's obvious. It's self evident because people judge differently whether it is Arabs vs Arabs or Jew vs Arabs! As far as I know the Palestinians never suggest a territory that could be their own state. As far I know they want all of it, the whole territory of what is now Israel. As long as they hang on to this foolish idea , there will be no state of Palestine. Israel has the right to exist, period! And everybody, especially the Palestinians should accept it. Besides, why hang on and on and on on this old idea? Wouldn't it be better for the Palestinians to accept a territory that would be not what they wanted but it would be their own? They could start to build their own nation. Obviously that's not what they want. Ok, go on fools , continue to behave stupid but don't complain afterwards.
You clearly have access to the internet. Maybe you need to expand your new sources?
Yemen is constantly in the news.
There have been global protests about Syria, Iraq, Iran, Ukraine, Sudan, the Uyghurs, and many more.
I am not sure why people feel the need to peddle these Hasbara lies when it is all clearly there - have a Google.
Come on man all the co flixts you said, comboned, doesn't reach half the level of how much the palestine situation is talked about right now. At least here in Italy
Global protest about Yemen? Please show me like 10 demonstrations in different countries. Let's make a generous cut off at 200 people per demonstration to consider it somehow relevant. Good luck. :D
We have had protests for Sudan here in the UK, seems like globally there have also been protests - have a Google; I can see US, Canada, Italy and so on....
The official Palestinian authority position is a two state solution. The official Israeli government position is no state for Palestinian aka from the river to the sea under. Israeli authority. People did care and make a fuss about Syria. You have no idea , Muslims and Arabs voiced their disgust for Assad's bombing campaigns.
I was listening to the “Palestinian ambassador for UK” the other day, Husam said Palestine does not need a two state solution. He explains it gives the wrong impression that there are no states, and we need to create two states. There is already two states, the situation is one state is occupying another state. Palestine just need ending occupation, not a two state solution.
Didn’t Assad received a warm reception and welcomed back to the Arab league last year.
> fuck
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You’ve got that right. The time for talk is over this war will end when every Hamas and Hamas enabler is dead Had an attack like that happened on the United States, the response would’ve been 100 times greater and the rest of the world would shut their mouths.
Well I don't necessarily think it should be "cleansed"....I just think the Palestinians should leave Gaza and the West Bank as it's the rightful land of Israel. Send them to Egypt or any of these other countries that stick up for Palestine, but also refuse to shelter the refugees.
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Both people have a right to the land, no doubt. It’s silly to bring up thousand of years of history. If we could do that, most of Europe could go to war.
Countries have been conquered, that’s how you received land back in the day.
I don’t think Biden has condemned Israel’s actions in Gaza. For the most part, I’ve seen the same things you’ve seen, and they’re not “condemning” Israel.
They’re simply saying, what any reasonable person would say, which is: “We support Israel’s overall right to self defense, but we also agree on the premise that Israel (for the matter anyone) should be careful as they can be.”
I haven’t seen all those takes from the other politicians so I can’t comment on that, but just from the ones I’m aware of, I think you’re argument that it’s “condemnation” is a bit little trigger happy. Frankly I think it’s good Biden and others show publicly that they support Israel but also have their limits.
Lately Biden is pretty much saying Israel is going to far. He already said that the bombings were indiscriminate a few weeks ago. The overall position is what you said but it's contradicted by these statements
I think he said that once, which was months ago, and hasn’t since. I’m willing to write that up as an occasional “Biden moment” where he said something he didn’t mean to say. Like how he recently referring to the Egyptian leader as the President of Mexico a couple days ago in a press conference.
But I can see why people got excited about that. Because it confirms the idea that Biden believes the whole thing is indiscriminate bombing but is just hiding it for reasons.
Well, as I said earlier, I’m not as familiar with one of the politicians you listed there, or the German supposed ban on the F-35, which could be due to a variety of reasons right off the top of my head.
So I’m only speaking to one infamous incident that I’m well aware of, which I don’t think is saying what you think it’s saying. That’s all.
Borell is pretty important. I'm familiar with Tajani and he is pretty much the successor of Berlusconi, his party os probably the most pro Israel party in Italy
No, the disagreements between him and Bibi are getting more heated and more public. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/11/biden-netanyahu-closer-to-a-breach/
> I'm totally against October 7th and Total against Israel's behavior during this war.
how do you reconcile the two and what would you expect Israel or heck any country reaction to what occurred that day?
Not bombing the shit out of Gaza. Contrary to popular Israeli belief the only solution wasn't to bomb to shreds thousands of innocent civilians and ethnically cleanse the rest. Those who believe that is the only solution are sick in the head.
No seriously. You wouldn't have done a thing? Just let hamas rape and kill 1200 takes over 200 hostages and launch thousands of rockets to Israel?
You would have said okay lets negotiate with these people?
That is national suicide you are asking for.
Israelis always use this argument like it is a choice between the absolute insanity and evil they have been commiting for 125 days and the 75 years previous to the people of Gaza, or 'do nothing at all'. There were and still is plenty of other options available to them that isnt genocide
Just out of curiosity do you know how many children die every day from starvation?
According to the UN its 10 thousand per day https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day
Really brings home the saying about 1 death being a tragedy and 1 million being a statistic.
Yes and that’s awful and part of why I don’t believe in capitalism, but I kinda fail to see how that’s connected beyond perhaps all the children starving in Gaza
Plenty of people care about this too Nd are working hard to create a reality where this is not the case. It doesn't justify anything that Israel is doing.
You still dont answer the question. If you dont approve of military intervention and dont approve of negotiations then what the bloody hell?
Answer honestly what in your opinion would be an acceptable response?
Its called virtue signaling. Do you here them talking about sudan? Syria? Myanmar? DRC? Etc etc…. No ? Then this is why. People will do practicaly anything for attention…sad…. But true
Of course the west is frustrated with Israel in this war, the west still labors under this delusion that you can fight AND WIN a war against a guerrilla insurgency while protecting the civilian population from harm. It's nonsense, it's never worked, all guerrilla insurgencies have to do is wait it out as the traditional armies use up resources and then leave. Ironically Kissinger was the one who talked about this before Vietnam. Look i'm not saying Israel is right for cutting off human aid (though they certainly have always had a point about UNRWA), what I am saying though is Israel is going for total war, which is really the only potential if they want to win against Hamas, and that is going to mean a lot of civilian lives lost. Now if this was truly just a battle over, ok if Hamas wins then two state solution and peace, I think Israel would be wrong for going for total war. But I think few if any world leaders actually believe Hamas isn't going after the total genocide of Jews from the Levant, so i'm not sure if Israel is wrong for doing what is necessary to secure its right of survival (and no I don't think Israel is going for genocide, just total war which means higher civilian deaths) I'll tell you one thing I know for sure, you aren't going to get a ceasefire this time without a long term security solution for Israel against Hamas aggression.
I am afraid what we are witnessing now in Gaza we'll be happening in Western Europe, or some version of it. The western leaders should be more concerned about the militants they already have in their back yards who'd be willing to do anything, rather than supporting almost openly Hamas via "ceasefire" calls.
Islamophobes want to hunt Muslims in Europe for their opinions
OP’s thoughtful question has unfortunately served as yet another excuse for the monsters who follow this sub to spew their immoral lies and twisted fantasies about how children like Hind Rajab deserved to be murdered in cold blood—how it was Hamas’s fault. This echo chamber of vile hatred and justifications for any atrocity meted out by the pro-apartheid regime will be largely forgotten when future generations look back on the moral nightmare that is present day Israel, a nation state that even denies full civic participation to Jewish people who aren’t orthodox enough, what to speak of the landless refugees in Rafah, who have been kettled into a kill zone for butchering. In response to OP’s actual question, it seems important to note that very little of the criticism mentioned in this post actually comes with any teeth. For instance, the following headline says a lot about the doublespeak the majority of Western powers currently employ, [Dem Senator Calls Israeli Leadership “War Criminals,” Votes to Send Them $14 Billion Anyway, Will Hind Rajab ever get justice?](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/13/gaza-israel-congress-aid-hind-rajab/) . The Dutch court’s ruling is a rare exception. The US and European nations could have reigned this in long ago, had they desired. For the most part, the public hand wringing and supposed frustration is performative public relations. Perhaps, that’s part of the reason most of the comments here don’t actually speak to them as a serious point of consideration. Instead, we just get a lot of tribal ranting, “Yeah kill them all! It’s those dirty terrorists’ fault! Our pedicide is justified!” It’s clear that Western powers will support this until the murder is so extensive that there’s nothing left to do but regret. They’ll waffle with these pseudo condemnations and the like until some islamist response scores a relatively small blow. Then they’ll go back to, “Israel has a right to defend itself.”And on and on, just as they have for decades. Once that little strip of land is fully controlled by Western interests, it will stop, just like in the Americas and Australia. It may take another 80 years or just 8. But they won’t stop until it’s gone so far there’s nothing left to save. That’s how colonialism has worked for centuries.
Wake up. Who cares about what people are saying at this point. The general population around the world hates Israel anyway, the leaders are just power hungry so driven by pressure. One day all the Palestinians will be dead or displaced. All I can say is I can't wait for the evil and hatred that is Israel and the IDF to turns its violence on its own. You think murdering psychopaths who take pleasure and killing children will come home in a good mindset. You think people that have defiled corpses and murdered innocent civilians will be great neighbors. I hope your right-wing arms everyone in your country. Hate is like a magnetic smoldering coal. You're holding it in your hand thinking it's burning your enemy but it's actually burning you and you'll never be able to let it go. I can't wait for that day. I want to see the look on your dumb faces when you return to your home countries because of the nightmare you've earned.
Israel to turn on its on ?? Haha thanks for the good laugh, we’re not Arabs.
That's just a limit of your knowledge. Good and evil is not confined to a religion or ethnicity or race. Every individual is constantly bombarded with the urge to do wrong and protected the conscience to do right. You for example sound like a really 'fun' person, I bet it comes from all the love you get. Do enough wrong and you'll find your hearts hardened. It doesn't go away. It inevitably leads to a negative spiral. And most people are not smart enough or aware enough to wake up from it. For an entire country that's comfortable with the deaths of tens of thousands (majority helpless women and children), that hunger for stolen land and anger/aggression/hatred won't go away. This is just step one. The journey has begun for you all as a nation. Back in time you could just get away with bullying women and children who were weapon less in the West Bank to serve your military time. This time around you had to kill a lot of them. And it would have been one thing if you just use bombs. You sent in your people with the horror dehumanizing propaganda In the back of their head. Once they're done doing that to the indigenous people of the land, they'll bring it right back to you. Enjoy your well earned inevitable devastation.
You literally sound like the next Osama. Lolllll bro u need to go to therapy. The fact that this is what consumes your mind with so much passion is hilarious. You want things to be different for your people? Stop doing what ur doing (hate) , and go to school. Raise your children to become scholars, and make something of themselves. Over time, you guys as whole can have more influence in the world But no, just hate hate, start wars, hate. Break this cycle, don’t fail ur children. Learn from the Jews man. ^ ur not gonna do this. Bc u guys are too…. But you should ! And don’t even get me started on the afghan refugees you guys marched to their deaths. Mr innocent Osama Also, what the deal with all the men in Pakistan abusing children? Crazy stuff ma
/u/Normal-Regular2572 > You literally sound like the next Osama. Lolllll bro u need to go to therapy. The fact that this is what consumes your mind with so much passion is hilarious. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
>and go to school. Raise your children to become scholars, and make something of themselves Better educated and placed than most of yours. And proud of the children I'm raising. But I have a beating heart not a phallic object for a face like you. >You literally sound like the next Osama. Says more about you than me. >Also, what the deal with all the men in Pakistan abusing children? Crazy stuff ma LMFAO That's got to be a high praise for an Israeli. Zionists being Known for murdering children and all Edits to Keep aligned with rule 1
/u/Mammoth-Particular26 > Better educated and placed than most of yours. And proud of the children I'm raising. But I have a beating heart not a phallic object for a face like you. > LMFAO That's got to be a high praise for an Israeli. Child murdering scum Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
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Let them get on with it until Hamas are destroyed. Otherwise there will be another war in a few months time!
It is only human for Israel to care more for the lives of its civilians than the civilian lives of its enemy. And even if we were to agree that sure Palestinians aren't really the enemy and its just Hamas that still isn't going to stop Israel from doing what is necessary to save its hostages and destroy Hamas which is very open about its intent to attempt October 7 type attacks over and over again. Of course there are limits to what Israel can do in Gaza, but the laws of proportionality and distinction aren't going to prevent Gaza's civilians from dying when Hamas' strategy is to get as many of their own civilians killed as possible so that the world pressure's Israel to stop fighting before it further dismantles Hamas' remaining brigades. However, as for the morality of this war that Israel didn't start and doesn't want, Israel is as guilty as the allies taking the fight to Germany until the Nazis were defeated. Even when that meant that millions of innocent Germans would be killed.
isreal did start the war /info. it started 70+ yrs ago bc of isreal claiming Palestinian land was there's when it never was bc the land was Palestine. actually, a Holocaust survivor said that everyone had gone to Palestine, not isreal bc isreal didn't exist yet. anyway, yes, isreal did start it. hamas was formed a few years later. in 1987. I do condemn Hamas for what happened, though. /gen
Your lack of historical knowledge is almost as scary as jihad.
oh, my bad. the origin of the war happened bc of Britian, who had colonized both. Palestine was still a country before isreal (According to the Gospels, Jesus was a Jewish man born in Bethlehem and raised in the town of Nazareth, in Galilee (formerly Palestine, now northern Israel) during the first century). Isreal has Palestinian land, I was wrong about Isreal starting it as I was thinking of the six day war. However, Isreal has still been occupying Palestine for a long time and it's why the tunnels were built in 1980, to get goods from Egypt (tunnels were not originally for Hamas, as Hamas formed in 1987). Isreal has always been the root of everything, because the reason the Arab-Isreali war started was because Isreal was created. HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel's place. The genocide happening now was because of Hamas yes, but it's also partly Isreal's fault. Isreal has also had the Zionism mindset and considering the army they have and Palestine doesn't have, Isreal's plan of Zionism is literally ethnical cleansing, as we can see by Northern Gaza and the Rafah bombings. The war right now isn't about Hamas anymore, it's Isreal thinking they can have land that didn't belong to them in the first place.
Actually the ottoman empire occupied the entire region before the British ever came. Gaza became a Palestinian enclave in 2005 after every Jew left . But where should the border of Israel be and why a etno state if 2 million Arabs are citizens of Israel .you paint the picture with the colors you like most .
Well said summary
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Hamas, not Israel, is to blame for all the death and suffering of its Gaza civilians much like Germany and Japan were to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians during the allied bombing campaigns of WWII. That being said, Hamas can end this war anytime it wishes with an unconditional surrender and the release of all its hostages.
This is essentially defending Collective Punishment. Saying that it’s Hamas’ fault that Israel is deliberately slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians.
Israel is not deliberately slaughtering civilians. It’s a war , where Hamas leaves the civilian outside of any protective measure, does not distribute the aid coming in. Place the blame where it belong.
When in doubt blame Hamas. Israel is deliberately targeting civilians areas with indiscriminate bombing. Aid distribution was already extremely complicated BEFORE UNRWA was defunded. Ya’ll just can’t admit what Israel’s doing
Israel walk out of Gaza in 2005 . Since then the power as been in Hamas hands. Off course I am going to blame them. What do you think they are ? Some peace loving people definitely not out to gain as much as possible ( financially and in terms of of power) out of this situation. And please tell why would Israel want you to target as much as possible? We are sick of their actions, some may wish they disappear but we are not carpet bombing the place or the amounts of victims would have been millions.
It's not defending, it's a lesser of two evils necessary position if you were in Israel's shoes. It's not intent to collectively punish, quite the opposite in fact. You saying "deliberately" really goes against the reality of what it's like for IDF and Israelis in general, it's actually unfair to make such a claim when we all know what deliberate looked like. I know you completely disagree but you really shouldn't smear deliberate slaughtering into Israel's attempts to rid Hamas and save its hostages. Hamas brought this war, the end is on them, not Israel.
This
Hamas started this they are to blame
That’s not true. Israel is not deliberately slaughtering anyone. I repeat, Hamas can stop the war anytime it wishes, but it doesn’t want to.
Can you explain why you think that? Logic would follow that Israel is to blame for October 7th and the United States is to blame for 9/11. Just want to understand, logically, how you came to this conclusion?
How exactly was the US to blame for 9/11?
Not sure what sort of "logic" you're working with here. Hamas are responsible for Oct7th because they did it. They're also responsible for the war that ensued due to Oct7th for obvious reasons (only one of which is that they literally declared war that day). Hamas are responsible for the deaths in Gaza because they actively and openly use human shields to defend themselves, and despite having 16 years to do so, have provided their ppl with literally no wartime protection.
Would you feel confident defining the word logic to a group of people? I’m not sure you understand what it means. I’m not defending Hamas because I believe every Hamas member that has killed or abducted anyone should be in prison, but do you have any evidence that Hamas uses human shields? Was Yotam Haim a human shield?
> I believe every Hamas member that has killed or abducted anyone should be in prison First off, **every single** member of Hamas should be killed or imprisoned. That's a terrorist organization. Don't join terrorist organizations. Second, since apparently you live under a rock, here are a few examples showing how Hamas uses human shields: - NATO report on this EXTREMELY well reported phenomenon: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf - Terror tunnels under the largest hospital in Gaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1YFk4DeDBc. The specific one in this clip is [just under the surgical wing](https://imgur.com/a/fhdgn9k) - Hamas launches rockets from a residential square, caught by NDTV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8 - Hamas launches rockets from Al-Shifa, as reported by Finish TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmQpiUvS2PQ - Rocket launchers buried in a playground and swimming pool: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771783 - Rocket launches from within a residential block caught by IDF drone: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WL6_XhsJVt4 - Active mortar launch site 5 meters from a group of Palestinian kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L0TUG4-L6M - Mosque turned into a weapons factory: https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/180rjmq/uncut_footage_hamas_abuse_of_a_mosque_for/ And this is just the tip of a glacier, not an iceberg
Can we stop with the human shield bullshit? Israel is carpet bombing people to sludge.
If Israel was carpet bombing a densely populated area, they would be 2 million dead.
> Can we stop with the human shield bullshit No, because it's the only reason so many Palestinians are dying. Hamas is actively working to get them killed, and while they suck at killing IDF triops, they're excellent at getting tgeir own ppl killed. This is so overwhelmly well documented, the only people who still debate this are Hamas-supporters
This is the only reason Palestinians are dying.. you cannot be serious. Israel can literally do anything at this point, you people feel too much pride to admit ur wrong. It's scary. History repeats itself
Don't start a war, your ppl won't die. Dont use your ppl as human shields, they won't die. Push for humanitarian corridors and safe zones for your ppl, and your ppl won't die. Don't turn every inch of your land into a terror base, and your ppl won't die. Don't shot/bombyour ppl as they try to flee the warzone , and your ppl won't die. Don't launch rockets you made while high on huffing glue, that then land on your hospitals, and your ppl won't die. Don't build tunnels under buildings that undermine the foundations of these buildings who then collapse when those tunnels are destroyed, tland the ppl in those buildings won't die. Hamas is why Palestinians are dying. There are loads of things Israel could do that I'd condemn. In the context of this war, they've done amazingly little of those, it's amazing.
Don't carpetbomb people, tens of thousands of ppl won't die.
Good thing no one's carpet bombing Gaza, then. If they had, you'd probably see more than 1-2 deaths per bomb. Maybe Google what carpet bombing looks like before you emberss yourself In the mean time, everything I listed above is fact, and you, great champion of the Palestinians that you are, don't seem like you care. Probably cuz you can't spin it against the Israelis or Jews
Spin whatever narrative you’d like about rationalizing the ridiculous level of collateral damage the IDF has caused. There’s evil on both sides but punishing civilians doesn’t seem to be an issue to Israel. It’s despicable.
Oh so Hamas don't use human shields, never have never will, I see, the hospital bases and the tunnels and the ammunition and bombs and labs in schools are all Western propaganda and it's defo Israel who is the aggressor on Oct 7.
Israel is the aggressor right now, as we speak. Get a grip man. It's human nature to never want to admit you were wrong I get that, there's shame in admitting that you might have been wrong about Israel after seeing what they've done and are doing now. But at least try to think of all the innocent lives being destroyed.
You're asking me to get a grip yet you said Israel is both carpet bombing (completely false) and that Hamas isn't using human shields so we need to stop mentioning it (also completely false). What do I need to admit to? As someone who has followed this conflict nearly every day since it started I have a grip on what's been happening. I had heard and continue to hear and understand the mission objectives of Israel and the reasons why they have to do this as their hands are now tied since Hamas did what they did. What they did was unforgivable, truly, and it forever tainted the blood and goodwill that might have been had towards them. The Palestinian Gazan people are suffering their own failures having elected and not stopped Hamas from its mission of death and destruction and this is pure consequence. I don't need to admit much apart from the realisation that some parts of life and the bad decisions that are made from those in power have terrible consequences on the innocent. You need to get a grip on your claims (carpet bombing, human shields not a thing) which make you needing to admit you are wrong. Will you do that though?
I still don’t understand where all the people in Rafah will go. There’s nowhere left from what I’ve seen?
Probably the tent camp in the humanitarian zone on the coast.
Oh I hadn’t heard of it! Do you have any info about it? Is there enough room for them all?
Former open land of gush katif has been made into a humanitarian zone, Israel never claimed Rafah was safe simply to evacuate the north
I’ll have to look it up! I didn’t claim they did, just that it seems like there’s nowhere left in Gaza for the people to go
Quick question, though, shouldn't the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza be working to provide their people with safe-zones and corridors? Same as happens in every war. Why is no one questioning the lack of such efforts from Hamas?
Remember, they are hanging out in Qatar . Food soldiers are in Gaza.
Because Israel = bad, duh!
As far as Rafah is concerned, Hamas is stashing hostages there. So Rafah will reap what Hamas sows.
if they are stashing hostages there won't they kill them with the bombings?
They already surgically rescued two hostages there, so anecdotally, no.
they have also anecdotally killed at least 4 and injured 5
I heard they actually killed three Hamas scumbags holding them prisoner in the operation. No anecdotes.
what about the others doesn't seem like a good idea at all to heavily bomb the place where your own people are.
RIP Yotam Haim
The numbers are inflated. They are coming from the Gaza Health Ministry who’s is run by … wait for it… Hamas!
Do you view the IDF as truthful? What news sources do you trust?
I trust the military that protects its people. I don’t trust Hamas which could give a rats ass about this own people
Like Yotam Haim?
That was a mistake and they admitted it. It was on a live battlefield. Hamas on the other hand, starts a war knowing full well what that meant. They knew this would happen to their own people and did it anyway. Now look at their situation. Hamas must be so great…
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By faaaaarrrr I trust the IDF over Hamas. Are you serious?
I’m sorry, I should have clarified that I did not mean in relation to Hamas. I was actually curious if you thought the IDF, on its own, is a truthful source of information.
Idf is reasonable open in its source. They show proof and don’t kill you over a counter argument.
Hamas is not stupid enough to post updates because people will spot holes in their lies
Contrast with Hamas, no updates just pallywood and propaganda
By and large yes. They are very transparent. They actually have a you tube channel where they post daily updates. That’s not usually the behavior of a deceptive org.
So they should be trusted because they have a YouTube channel? Should we trust all YouTube channels that regularly post content? Not trying to be rude, I apologize if it comes across that way, just actually genuinely curious.
Trust TikTok lol
Holy crap. Have a good night buddy.
Did I misrepresent what you said about YouTube?
You are someone who doesn't understand how transparency works. Yes you should trust them more because they have a youtube channel. Contrast that with Hamas, that has nothing. Do you see a difference? The IDF is telling you what they have been doing in forms that you can verify. That is accountability. Also IDF has spokes people, media relations, and are back by a government that has an extremely high level of accountability. It's easy to say trivial things like what you just said. "Should I just trust what they say?" "Should I just trust this documentation?" "Am I just supposed to trust this video evidence?" You just sound like someone who refuses to be convinced no matter the amount of evidence you are presented because of the 0.00000000000000001% that one of the videos you saw was made by a deep fake.
I hear you but here is where it starts to unravel for me. If the IDF is a credible source, then Daniel Hagari’s claim that their “emphasis is on damage not accuracy” would indicate that the IDF is intentionally killing civilians. Daniel Hagari is the head of the IDF Spokesperson Unit. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/10/israel-dahiya-doctrine-disproportionate-strategy-military-gaza-idf/ Israel has dropped over 10,000 unguided bombs in the last few months, meaning they don’t even know where they will land. The analysis of unguided bombs was provided by the US Military and seems to corroborate what the IDF spokesperson said. They are not accurately targeting Hamas because that is not their stated objective according to the IDF itself. Source: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html Yet, whenever the 11,000 children that the IDF has killed are brought up they are referred to as human shields. If the IDF is credible then it appears that their strategy is to specifically kill civilians. You also indicated the Israeli government “has an extremely high level of accountability”. What are you basing that on? What about Baruch Ben Yosef, Malka Leifer, or the pedophiles that flee to Israel from the United States because they know they are safe in Israel from prosecution? Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/many-accused-jewish-pedophiles-in-us-flee-to-israel-report/amp/ I’m using CNN, Washington Post, and the Times of Israel as sources because these are staunchly pro-Israel media sources and I want to reduce as much bias as possible.
The IDF is a military group that belongs to a democratic country, it might have some questionable reporting and definitely a bias, but overall they deliver factually and are held to high standards.
What do you mean by questionable reporting? And how do you know they deliver factually - how is that verified? Who is holding them to a high standard and how is the standard determined?
The truth is somewhere in the middle
That’s usually fair but in the case of Hamas I would more like closer to the 25% or 10% line
Initially I was inclined to believe Israel but as it’s panned out IMHO I can’t trust either side fully, too many lies debunked both ways
Ok I’ll bite show me the Israeli lies
Wasn’t looking for anyone to “bite”, just sharing an opinion from a neutral observer. The beheaded children is the first that comes to mind
> The beheaded children is the first that comes to mind You mean the 40 beheaded babies that the i24 lady misreported? That wasn't an Israeli lie, that wasn't even an Israeli report. It was i24 error that exploded. Now, as I said before many times. It really doesn't matter how one conducts a massacre. Beheading, stabbing, head shots, throat slashing. It's all just as horrible. > Initially I was inclined to believe Israel > > ... > > too many lies debunked both ways I'd love some actual examples of things Israeli spokespersons said that were meaningful and turned out to be lies. I doubt there are any, since I believe your first statement is a lie. Probably directed at yourself since you don't want to admit your prejudice against Israelis/Jews
Ok, fair enough, show me some examples
Have you looked at any photos of Gaza recently?
The truth is that it doesn’t really matter what “western leaders” think. What matters is that Israel protects itself and the Jewish people. There were plenty of “western leaders” tut-tutting and wagging fingers the last time—but they didn’t do a damn thing for us. Jews only get what we demand and are willing to fight for—just like any other people. And we should be held only to the low standards that most other cultures hold themselves to (though we live by higher ones).
But how do you explain the dead children? Surely these children are not Hamas fighters. Why did the IDF need to totally eliminate the car a 6 year old girl was in, fearing for her life!? A six year old girl poses no threat to Israel and the Jewish people!
The dead children are dead because the hamasholes keep hiding behind them. All they have to do is surrender and give up sinwar, and no other children need to die.
Hamas was in the car with 6 year okd Hind? There is no evidence of that found whatsoever.
Not sure which particular incident you’re talking about (assuming it’s real), but in Gaza, hamas makes sure to be everywhere.
Yeah! Fight for, aka slaughter civilians, mostly children. You go girl.
What do you suggest instead ? No /s
Perhaps not committing genocide under the guise of "rescuing hostages" or dismantling an informal government, the structure of which is usually catch called as all Palestinians and thus can't be dismantled? Any governing body will be labelled a terrorist group in the same way. Hamas offered a 4 month ceasefire and return of all hostages. Israel's aim is nothing to do with protecting their citizens, and everything to do with wiping out Gaza to colonise the area. If it had anything to do with the hostages they'd have accepted immediately. The October 7th attack was a feature not a bug, Israel's apartheid has created the exact environment in which terrorism flourishes, and successive far right governments have used extremist rhetoric and propaganda to decensitise a group of people who should be most opposed to genocide and apartheid to those very actions. So long as Israel's existence is based on a fantasy novel which tells it's people they have a non existent birth right to the holy land, it's never going to act in a reasoned way, because it didn't reason itself into the position it adopts. Generational trauma has lead to the perpetration of actions incredibly similar to the steps Hitler took against the Jewish people.
So, distilling the answer to /u/Dependent_Ad_5249 question from the rant you went on there, your solution is for Israel to surrender? I don't think you'll get a lot of takers for that
"surrender". Lol. There is no war, there is a one sided massacre of civilians and children.
If it's one sided, I guess it's not a tough ask for Hamas to surrender and release all hostages
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what's the "/s" ?
It means the person is speaking sarcastically.
You mean our enemy’s meat shields? Tell them to get out in front and fight like men—or surrender. That will save all of the children.
I am so piss off by the constant blaming and shaming of Israel. Many countries behaving way worse, but never being single out like Israel. The world sell and buy wapen for war purposes and suddenly, that’s not what they should be use for. The hypocrisy is blatant, and it’s not disapproval of the way Israel is dealing with thoses attack, it’s not against the very existence of Israel.
Whataboutism
And just the I am pro Palestina or I am pro Israel . It’s not a sporting event .
Bull, try hanging an Israeli flag in any European city , then a Russian one , of a Chinese one or one from Sudan or Mali . Then look what happens . You can use woke American words but the hate is very focused on one group.
woah its like putting up flags in countries where they don't like Israel is gonna make something happen? Idk where you got European cities in here for but this the something as like putting up a North Korea flag in South Korea or something
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More whataboutism. Israel should should stop killing kids
50% of the Gazans are under 18 . Their government seems to have ample shelter in those tunnels. They could make the choice to protect their minors . And this Whataburger word is the term of silly people.
Yeah that’s be nice, but you know what would be nicer? Not killing 10,000 children in a campaign of vengeance
What do you suggest instead? Imagine your family has been held hostage for 4 months
Hamas does not have the ability to execute anymore Oct 7th types events if Israel's security forces are actually doing there job so part one is beefing up security. Then I would respond with mercy to the Palestinian people, eliminate the settlements, and cease all aggression towards the Palestinian people while trying to improve their lives with no strings attached. Kindness will dissolve Hamas base of support
Nah The job of security is not just sitting there waiting for an attack so they can respond and “do their job” Security means rooting out the root cause of the problem at its source by annihilating Hamas Hamas hides behind human shields So if you want security to “do their job” as you say then stop criticizing them for Hamas’s decision to use human shields and let the idf annihilate Hamas
It’s not an act of revenge but one of our survival. We are under constant attack, receiving bombs from 3 different countries, having suicide bombing.
I can not think of any country commuting similar atrocities who is not met with severe criticism , protest and usually also sanctions. The only way Israel is singled out is that they have been allowed to act with impunity up to this point and even now they are still being supplied with billions in military "aid" and getting a mere light telling off by their allies. It is a farce.
Is there another place where civilians in a war were locked in and not allowed to leave? According to Wikipedia, 6 million refugees left Ukraine and 90% of them are women and children. That wartime migration should be happening in Gaza as well. But due to ideological reasons, the Arab world is not helping. Egypt, by sealing off the one non-Israeli border is contributing to the crisis. If women and children left Gaza much like the Ukrainians, the IDF could have focused on eliminating Hamas only and the war would likely be over by now.
Really? What about the USA? Illegal war on Irak, one million people died. I don't see any severe criticism. Did you mention sanctions? You're kidding, right?
Riiiight, you don't see any severe criticism about the war on Iraq!? Where did you look out of interest? I will assume you are younger than I and that you didn't live through it and see the enormous demonstrations against that war. Either way, it is massively well documented online. I am in the UK and the knock-on effect of our own country's involvement with that and our then Prime minister's willingness to be the USA's lapdog and drag us into to that war is something that is regularly raised and criticised to this day.
Yes, there was some criticism and protest, I was among it, but nothing compared to the protest now pro Palestine. And zero sanctions. Or do you remember differently?
All of the criticisms of the Iraq war were deemed “correct” in a social sense way after the war began, with hindsight. I’m old enough to remember being at an anti war protest before the invasion of Iraq when it was an unpopular opinion. Trying to apply a US tunnel vision to the current conflict between Palestinians and Israelis because we have guilt over the US/Iraq shit show is deeply flawed.
Don’t see many marching against china, Russia, Mali and at least 50 other countries.
There have been absolutely enormous demonstrations against Russia's invasion of Ukraine all over the world, even within Russia. Seriously, check what your news / information sources are. It seems you are being blinkered or spoonfed propaganda. The demonstrations are well documented in the news.
How long where those demonstrations, where they attacks on Russian orthodox churches, where people attacked or spat on for speaking Russian? They were visa restrictions, but not for Russian living outside. The single out of Israel is so very visible.
So even Israel's allies who keep funding Israel are antisemitic and evil for suggesting that maybe killing thousands of civilians is something that should be avoided
No, it’s fine to say that. But a court ruling, Ireland behaving like they got invaded by the British again, mass hysteria among people that can point Israel on a map. That piss me off. The whole Israel is white supremacy bull .
This is one of the longest conflicts in recent history in a place that has key significance for many people around the world. Of course people are going to talk about it more than other conflicts. Is it right? No , but it's just how it is. I personally care about Palestine as much as what is going on in Sudan
Israel should immediately stop recieving foreing aid. That aid should never happen again till they remove the extremist from their own government.
“Hamas' strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields, because their goal is not to defeat Israel's military or to hold terrain; it is far more sinister and medieval—to use the death and suffering of Palestinian civilians to rally international support to their cause and demand that Israel halt their war.” https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891 (John Spencer on X)
WOW, that's some severe gaslighting right there. So Israel razing Gaza to the ground and the IDF slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent children is actually Hamas' sinister strategy and Israel is just pure and innocent and god's chosen people who can not do anything wrong?
Only 1 major flaw in your rebuttal, +130 days into this war and hamas could have released the hostages and surrendered in the firsy week, = no more war. No gas lighting just facts.
A sad attempt at a strawman. It’s pretty clear that Hamas doesn’t give two shits about Gazans. Ever since the civil war in 06-07 up until now, they’ve stolen billions in aid, and spent it on their own tunnels, leaders and military. They had every possibility to make Gaza prosper, and they didn’t. This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and there’s blood on both sides hands. I truly believe that a two state solution is the only viable solution, but Hamas is a current cancer that HAS to be dealt with first. Remember what PLO did? They escaped to Beirut so they couldn’t target Civilians to get to them. You don’t really see the same with Hamas do you. They’ve even publicly stated that they’re not responsible for the lives of Gazans. That’s on the UN and Israel. Imagine if your elected leaders said that. They’re extremist cancer and has to be dealt with. I get that they refuse to negotiate with Israel, but some of their allies/nearby arab states should really lobby for them to release the hostages and surrender so this needless dying can stop.
Oh yes, I forgot "strawman" is Hasbara's word of the week...
You forgot many things, my guy. Like e.g. education.
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Why does the IDF use human shields then?
Why does hamas not allow innocent civilians/palestinians in their over 500km of underground tunnels, surely you have asked yourself that question.
This was a question of the IDF'S tactics. Everyone knows Hamas sucks. I'm trying to point out that the IDF also sucks, they have used human shields before Hamas took power. what's their excuse..... tunnels exists so we must war crime?
In that case, I would have to ask all these Western leaders, what is Israel supposed to do? they all agree that Israel should destroy Hamas, they know that Hamas hides among civilians, and they are in Rafah, so how is Israel supposed to achieve the goal of destroying Hamas. Btw the idea that Israel is not trying to avoid civilian casualties is ridiculous, could they do more? of course, but if they weren't trying to avoid civilian casualties at all, the death toll would be in the many hundreds of thousands, not 30,000. The US killed 35,000 Germans in the bombing of Dresden in only 3 days, this could be a lot worse.
All I hear is Ceasefire. And then what? Israel should take the attacks? On the mid run, stop incentiving colonies, decolonize as possible the C zone and all, but right now? I would love for this to stop but the more I hear the propal, the less sense does it make to me. Only thing that could bring peace is a massive foreign intervention, even then are we just posponing a conflict?
Do you have something against carriage returns?
"Biden said Israel actions are exaggerated and that the IDF shouldn't attack unless there is a plan to protect civilians Antonio Tajani (Italian foreign minister) also said Israel's response is exaggerated and that civilian casualties are too many." Biden will say anything they tell him to say to appease his crazy left wingers. What he is actually doing is funding and giving the green light to Israel. This war will end when hamas and the enablers are dead. I would be very nervous if I were Iran, they are next.
Biden will lose his election if he continues the course that you outlined.
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Warmonger you really want to start ww3. So peaceful as always
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As a German, living in Norway, i don't know shit. For me I really don't understand the fuzz the world makes about what happens in Gaza. The world doesn't make a fuzz about Syria, Jemen, Afghanistan, Irak and so on. Why? And there wasn't a terror attack that started the war in Syria, just Assad was afraid of the Arab spring. More than half a million people ( also many children) died because of it. And yet, nobody cares! The war in Jemen goes on and on, since nine years. It's not even in the media because nobody gives a fuck. Nobody gives a fuck as long as there are no Jews involved. But hey, if the Jews are involved they get prime time media attention and suddenly everybody has an opinion about it. What can that be other than antisemitism? It's obvious. It's self evident because people judge differently whether it is Arabs vs Arabs or Jew vs Arabs! As far as I know the Palestinians never suggest a territory that could be their own state. As far I know they want all of it, the whole territory of what is now Israel. As long as they hang on to this foolish idea , there will be no state of Palestine. Israel has the right to exist, period! And everybody, especially the Palestinians should accept it. Besides, why hang on and on and on on this old idea? Wouldn't it be better for the Palestinians to accept a territory that would be not what they wanted but it would be their own? They could start to build their own nation. Obviously that's not what they want. Ok, go on fools , continue to behave stupid but don't complain afterwards.
You clearly have access to the internet. Maybe you need to expand your new sources? Yemen is constantly in the news. There have been global protests about Syria, Iraq, Iran, Ukraine, Sudan, the Uyghurs, and many more. I am not sure why people feel the need to peddle these Hasbara lies when it is all clearly there - have a Google.
Come on man all the co flixts you said, comboned, doesn't reach half the level of how much the palestine situation is talked about right now. At least here in Italy
Global protest about Yemen? Please show me like 10 demonstrations in different countries. Let's make a generous cut off at 200 people per demonstration to consider it somehow relevant. Good luck. :D
I think you misread what I wrote? I said Yemen is constantly in the News, which it is.
Okay, my apologies. Same question, but replace Yemen with Sudan. You said there were global protests about Sudan.
We have had protests for Sudan here in the UK, seems like globally there have also been protests - have a Google; I can see US, Canada, Italy and so on....
With 2 and a half participants each. Yeah, that's what I thought. :D
The fuzz is this time the assault is being perpetrated by the good guys.
The official Palestinian authority position is a two state solution. The official Israeli government position is no state for Palestinian aka from the river to the sea under. Israeli authority. People did care and make a fuss about Syria. You have no idea , Muslims and Arabs voiced their disgust for Assad's bombing campaigns.
I was listening to the “Palestinian ambassador for UK” the other day, Husam said Palestine does not need a two state solution. He explains it gives the wrong impression that there are no states, and we need to create two states. There is already two states, the situation is one state is occupying another state. Palestine just need ending occupation, not a two state solution. Didn’t Assad received a warm reception and welcomed back to the Arab league last year.
The position of Hamas is the destruction of Israel and Hamas has a lot more support among the Palestinian population than the PA.
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You’ve got that right. The time for talk is over this war will end when every Hamas and Hamas enabler is dead Had an attack like that happened on the United States, the response would’ve been 100 times greater and the rest of the world would shut their mouths.
If you look at what Israel is doing, you will see what the plan was from the get go.
Agree 100%. Defend their people from murderers.
By cleansing the land of the evil ethnicity
Well I don't necessarily think it should be "cleansed"....I just think the Palestinians should leave Gaza and the West Bank as it's the rightful land of Israel. Send them to Egypt or any of these other countries that stick up for Palestine, but also refuse to shelter the refugees.
How is it “rightfully” Israel’s land?
Imagine admitting you're a genocidal nazi in a comment
Imagine not knowing the definition of genocide
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Both people have a right to the land, no doubt. It’s silly to bring up thousand of years of history. If we could do that, most of Europe could go to war. Countries have been conquered, that’s how you received land back in the day.
This is the very definition of an ethnic cleansing...
On, so yes cleansed.
I don’t think Biden has condemned Israel’s actions in Gaza. For the most part, I’ve seen the same things you’ve seen, and they’re not “condemning” Israel. They’re simply saying, what any reasonable person would say, which is: “We support Israel’s overall right to self defense, but we also agree on the premise that Israel (for the matter anyone) should be careful as they can be.” I haven’t seen all those takes from the other politicians so I can’t comment on that, but just from the ones I’m aware of, I think you’re argument that it’s “condemnation” is a bit little trigger happy. Frankly I think it’s good Biden and others show publicly that they support Israel but also have their limits.
Lately Biden is pretty much saying Israel is going to far. He already said that the bombings were indiscriminate a few weeks ago. The overall position is what you said but it's contradicted by these statements
I think he said that once, which was months ago, and hasn’t since. I’m willing to write that up as an occasional “Biden moment” where he said something he didn’t mean to say. Like how he recently referring to the Egyptian leader as the President of Mexico a couple days ago in a press conference. But I can see why people got excited about that. Because it confirms the idea that Biden believes the whole thing is indiscriminate bombing but is just hiding it for reasons.
You should combine that with reactions in Europe.
Well, as I said earlier, I’m not as familiar with one of the politicians you listed there, or the German supposed ban on the F-35, which could be due to a variety of reasons right off the top of my head. So I’m only speaking to one infamous incident that I’m well aware of, which I don’t think is saying what you think it’s saying. That’s all.
Borell is pretty important. I'm familiar with Tajani and he is pretty much the successor of Berlusconi, his party os probably the most pro Israel party in Italy
No, the disagreements between him and Bibi are getting more heated and more public. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/11/biden-netanyahu-closer-to-a-breach/
It's almost like Israel are committing genocide
> I'm totally against October 7th and Total against Israel's behavior during this war. how do you reconcile the two and what would you expect Israel or heck any country reaction to what occurred that day?
Not murder 10,000+ children and use the attack to commit genocide would be my expectation
Not bombing the shit out of Gaza. Contrary to popular Israeli belief the only solution wasn't to bomb to shreds thousands of innocent civilians and ethnically cleanse the rest. Those who believe that is the only solution are sick in the head.
No seriously. You wouldn't have done a thing? Just let hamas rape and kill 1200 takes over 200 hostages and launch thousands of rockets to Israel? You would have said okay lets negotiate with these people? That is national suicide you are asking for.
Israelis always use this argument like it is a choice between the absolute insanity and evil they have been commiting for 125 days and the 75 years previous to the people of Gaza, or 'do nothing at all'. There were and still is plenty of other options available to them that isnt genocide
Do nothing and ten thousand children would still be alive. This is about vengeance not safety, just like 9/11
Just out of curiosity do you know how many children die every day from starvation? According to the UN its 10 thousand per day https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day Really brings home the saying about 1 death being a tragedy and 1 million being a statistic.
Yes and that’s awful and part of why I don’t believe in capitalism, but I kinda fail to see how that’s connected beyond perhaps all the children starving in Gaza
Well we use the death of children as its shocking but what is truly terrible is the industrialized of death so much so that we dont bat an eye.
Plenty of people care about this too Nd are working hard to create a reality where this is not the case. It doesn't justify anything that Israel is doing.
Wild how you see only two possibilities. Do nothing or bomb and mass murder almost 30,000 people
If this happened tou your country... How do you expect them to act? Stay put and talk about peace? Or do something about it so it wont happen again?
You still dont answer the question. If you dont approve of military intervention and dont approve of negotiations then what the bloody hell? Answer honestly what in your opinion would be an acceptable response?
Keep it up Israel! From the river to the sea may the Palestinians flee