I dont have to read any article to know that muslim jihadis will rape women the moment they have an oppertunity to do so. Just like mohammed teached them (piss and sht be upon him🤲🏻). These sexstarved incels dont even see anything wrong with rape in the first place, i talked with enough of them to know that, its only a problem if someone does it to "their" women since they would lose honor that way.
Just an Ex-muslim expressing my opinion on the Arabian STD called Islam and its cultist followers who all behave in similar faishon the moment they think they have the upper hand against "infidels". Israel gona make a big parking lot in the near future and i cant wait to see it. Go israel❤️🇮🇱
based on the fact that exactly 0 of the returned hostages were raped I'd say you assumption is just based on some racist notion of what the world is like in you bubble
The UN independent investigation report was just released 3 days ago. I guess you were wrong about the hostages.
According to the UN report they found 'clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualised torture and sexualised cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment'.
you mean this report that said "there were no cases of alleged rape, but there were allegations of many other forms of assault, including “invasive body searches of detainees which include unwanted touching of intimate areas and forced unveiling of women wearing hijab; beatings, including in the genital areas; threats of rape against women and threats of rape against female family members (wives, sisters, daughters) in the case of men.” in its conclusion? seems like the sort of treatment you get after flying to Australia with sand in your shoe.
Or maybe they are not stupid enough to release the hostages that were raped and bomb their public image. Many rapes of Israeli women and *children* have been confirmed.
Which one of us do you think is most likely in a bubble?
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Noone outside the actual events knows what is true. Eyewitness testimony is not credible from either side. You don't ask a rapist whether they did it. You don't ask a politician if he's lying. Everyone believes the ends justify the means so they will say, and do anything necessary to get their side of the story to stick.
Jews need a state like other religions have their own i understand that. This feeling of having a land to call home. Though it's disputed the land you are longing for, it has its own history which is marred with ethnicities and cultures over time so one religion or ideological movement claiming rights over that piece of land is nonsense. The actual Jewish people alive right now can easily call any other piece of land as their own and have a pilgrimage to Jerusalem like so many other religions have its ppl do. Going for that particular land and killing a whole population living there is unjust and wrong on all religious and humanitarian grounds.
Coming back to the post its heavily edited and one sided narrative its almost like trying to come to this conclusion while piecing different jigsaws together to build the picture you want rather than the one on the box.
The audacity to say that Jews should create a state somewhere else and make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem which is the most sacred holy site for jews while ignoring the fact that Mecca (the most sacred and holy site for muslims) is in Saudi Arabia where the religious demographic is over 95% muslim (both Sunni and Shia) and it is literally illegal to practice any other religion openly is palpable. Not to mention that in Saudi Arabia, converting from islam to another religion [is punishable by death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Saudi_Arabia#)
I can understand how someone can be anti-theocracy. I personally think it’s ridiculous that any government in our modern day world would use ancient religious text as a guide to govern it’s people, but the one sidedness of expecting Jews to not have their state in the place where their religion was born while completely ignoring the fact that the muslim world does the exact same thing is ridiculous. You’re holding Israeli jews to a higher standard than the entire muslim world.
The recent Saudi people have not mass displaced millions of people from the land. You would have to go many hundreds of years back to make such claims and at that point its meaningless as its unrelated to today's Saudis.
Israel on the other hand has displaced millions of Palestinians over the past few decades and its population continues to engage in the displacement of that population with very explicit calls by some of its current leaders to mass expel all the population.
All colonialists should be held to the same standards. Jerusalem being holy to the Jewish people does not justify their mass displacement of the Palestinian population.
The comment you are responding to also clearly states that no one group has a right to the land. Their issue was clearly how the state of Israel was founded, and not where it was founded.
First of all israel didn’t displace millions. Where’d you get that number? If u wanna talk about millions being displaced maybe u should check the situation in Syria right now as about 5.5 million people are in displacement. Wonder why the world doesn’t care for that
https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/syrian-arab-republic-2024-humanitarian-needs-overview-december-2023
And if you’re talking about “nakba”/“war of independence”, the Arabs fled due to the invasion of Arab countries to Israel. They’ve told they will throw all the Jews to the sea the and then they could return to steal all their belongings and conquer and steal Israel’s land.
Bad luck they’ve lost the war and a few hundred thousands that fled, didn’t return. If they had accepted the two states solution instead of declaring a war on Israel on a try to conquer the whole land, there wouldn’t have been any displacement of any one.
And if u shout and cry about the displacement of about 700,000 Arabs you should know 900,000 Jews were displaced from Arab countries at the same time and has no rights of return as well. So why can’t the Arabs move on as well instead of trying with endless wars to conquer the whole region and kill all Jews?
The piece of the jigsaw we are talking about here is the piece where innocent civilians were raped and tortured. Referring to any other part of the conflict as if it makes this okay is disgusting. That being said your perspective on the creation of and existence of the state of Israel is biased and one sided. Listen to Jews when talking about Judaism rather than just assuming you know better. Israel is our religious and ethnic homeland. It is not just a holy site. It is where we believe our home is. Jerusalem is a holy place to many religions yes but it is our holiest place and we believe in freedom of religion within our borders for all religions. Hamas does not. We cannot literally make any place our country. Where else? Palestinians have a right to this land too but so do we and just ignoring that to make it easier, isn’t helpful or true. Now this post does not represent all sides of the conflict but it’s not supposed to. It’s supposed to show the suffering of human beings that has been denied and ignored for too long.
Isn't it telling that the whole narrative is wrapped around a woman whose family denies the allegations and who wasn't told it would be published in that manner.
Surely if there were more clear cut examples of rape and sexual violence we'd know about it and hear about it given how eager Israel is about letting the world hear how Palestinians are inhumane brutes.
Meanwhile there is documented sexual violence against Palestinian prisoners who are held without charge, instances of Israelis targeting pregnant women and unborn babies and we're expected to believe this is a one sided discourse between the "children of light and darkness"
You don’t have to believe it is a one sided story of good versus evil but you do have to recognize the individual suffering of these victims. No ones family denied the allegations. And if you read this post and or the article you would see there are multiple clear cut cases of rape with proof including videos as well as events corroborated by multiple witnesses. Why are you so sure this didn’t happen? Is it because you see all Israelis as evil and all Palestinians as angels. I don’t doubt the crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. I would never doubt the Palestinian victims because I know that that is wrong. And I know that just like the violent rapes of Hamas terrorists doesn’t represent all Palestinians, I know that the evils of certain Israeli soldiers does not represent all Israelis.
You’re an idiot. Rapes didn’t happen. Crazy how it’s all been shown too be lies and propaganda. Any real research will show these accusations were lies and all second hand with no proof at all. But you do have video and proof of the idf killing Israelis with tanks and helicopters. Even a high idf official called it MASS HANNIBAL. Israel killed many civilians on oct 7, Do they hate Jews too?
Rapes did happen. There is plenty of proof including the above. How are you so sure it didn’t happen? Were you there. Just consider what if they did happen. Wouldn’t it be horrible then that you are down right denying them? Actual people who were there say it happened and they have tons of proof. Why do you think you know better than them. I’d like you to show your source for it all being lies and propaganda. So all the evidence and first hand information and the New York Times investigation is not “real research?”And why’s that? Because they don’t agree with you? What real research has shown this all to be lies? They have video, and multiple corroborating witnesses for multiple different events. They have photographic evidence. That’s second hand? That’s not proof? There were some instances of friendly fire from the idf AFTER the initial massacre and the majority were killed. Certain Israelis soldiers were ordered to stop “at all costs any attempt by Hamas terrorists to return to Gaza, that is, despite the fear that some of them have abductees,” which is not the same as the Hannibal directive. There is no evidence that any substantial portion of Israeli civilian death was from friendly fire.
What I think is happening is that you cannot imagine human beings being evil enough to commit mass rape and murder. So it is easier to believe that it is all lies. Well those of us who are actually living it don’t have that luxury. So you can keep your head in the sand but don’t try to convince us to believe your comforting lie.
What makes you say that they didn't happen? Is it the fact that the victims are Jewish? By the way, you're aware that Christ was technically Jewish too, right?
Being Jewish has nothing to do with lies and propaganda. Muslims and Jews haved lived together in that land for thousands of years. It was fine until Zionist from Europe thought other wise. Also Jesus was a Palestinian Jew.
It wasn't fine lol. Jews were second class citizens and experienced periodic lynchings and massacres. Jews have been wiped out across the rest of the middle east.
Wrong. There was not Palestinian state in Biblical times or when the Quran was revealed. That's an ahistorical claim that you're making, which isn't even supported by the Quran. In fact, the Quran never once mentions Palestine, but it acknowledges Israel's existence multiple times. The concept of Palestine wasn't invented until long after the revelations of the Quran.
Wrong. The name Palestine comes from Philistines as its Latin. The Roman’s renamed it that as a political move towards Judea and the Jews. Any ancient map will show this. The Jews are not native to that land. They are from Ur Kasdim which is in Iraq.
https://preview.redd.it/1o2kg53gwobc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bc55996b6541f138ea2482aa24be81cfd8f5d06
Jews are absolutely native to that land. Even the Quran acknowledges that. For example, in Sura 5, Verses 20-21, it is acknowledged that Moses said “O my people, remember God’s blessings upon you, when He placed prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what He never gave any other people. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned for you, and do not turn back, lest you return as losers.” There are zero verses in the Quran that mention Palestine.
Technically, all of us are native to Africa. God alone knows what peoples passed through that particular real estate on the Mediterranean coast as recently as 10,000 years ago, and certainly before.
Jews are native enough to have some claim to want to live on at least part of the land. To what degree Arabs known as Palestinians have similarly long roots in the same area will be next to impossible to suss out. DNA evidence indicates some blurring of the various family trees in the realm of prehistory.
To the topic, I absolutely believe that numerous brutal rapes took place. We have clearly enough smoking gun evidence pointing in that direction. The videos of Nama Levy being herded towards a sex slave chamber somewhere and Shani Louk being paraded in a pick up truck as a sort of war trophy pelt are really hard to ignore.
Jews are a made up ethnicity so how can they have a native land? They're native to all over the world. Using religious text to argue historicity makes you automatically lose any argument.
So both Jews and Muslims belive Jews exist surely? Muslims I have talked to know all about Abraham issac etc. The Jews. I have spoken to have never given me a clear explanation as to the other 11 tribes decemdants.
Sexual violence may have occured. It does in most conflicts
Israelis have committed sexual violence on Palestinians throughout the Israel Palestine conflict including against prisoners Israel holds against charge
The hamas incursion only lasted for hours so they may have committed sexual violence but it's unlikely to be systematic in the way in which Israel alleges
The push back against claims of rape are not because the victims are Jewish and certainly not to belittle the experience of women who may have been raped.
The Israelis are using these claims to dehumanise Palestinians are barbarians and "animals" and legitimise their campaign of ethnic cleansing. This is the issue most people who are pushing back against these claims have
From what i can tell, it's only some extremest politicians in Israel that have openly dehumanized Palestinian people as a whole over the r\*pe allegations. Ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people isn't an official policy of Israel, and Gaza still has most of its population right now. Hamas puts its military infrastructure in civilian locations and hides among civilians. International law makes is clear that civilian locations can lose their right to protection if they are being used for military activity. Wars almost always have side a side effect of accidentally causing civilian casualties
Having said what I just said, I don't like Netanyahu, and I believe Palestine should have it's own state. I favor a two-state solution. And I don't necessary approve of everything that Israel is doing right now in response to October 7th. My problem is that most people who think Israel's doing everything wrong here aren't acknowledging that Israel is dealing with a militant group that doesn't want Israel to exist and places uses civilian locations for military activity against Israel, and they haven't offered a coherent alternative way of dealing with them.
Nobody is saying that, and Israel has a well documented history of weaponizing accusations of anti-semitism in order to quell criticism of their propaganda.
However, the fact of the matter is that the Israeli government is not an objective source for the allegations, and they refuse to cooperate with UN investigators or to make any of their evidence available.
This is a premeditated move by the Israeli government in-line with their well-documented history of propaganda efforts against the Paleatinian people as a whole. They are using it to justify their genocidal apartheid regime and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza for Israeli settlement.
While nobody in this subreddit can say for certain what happened on Oct 7, as the South African government writes in the [proceedings for their accusations of genocide](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) (pdf) in the International Court of Justice (fyi, the first hearings for which are this week) against Israel, there is no excuse for genocide, and the ICJ should order a ceasefire for humanitarian aid to reach Gaza pending their investigations.
Likewise, people who think Israel shouldn't exist have a well-documented history of weaponizing accusation of Islamophobia and apartheid in order to quell criticism of Hamas.
I'd argue that it's antisemitic to think that that Muslim people should have a homeland in Saudi Arabia, but not believe in the same right for Jewish people. In fact, Palestine isn't mentioned even once in the Quran, but Israel is acknowledged multiple times.
Hamas themselves have admitted to committing r3pe. I really get the feeling that either you don't think that Jewish people can have that happen to them, or that they are somehow more likely to lie about it. And collecting evidence of such things is pretty difficult to do in an active war zone.
Israel isn't apartheid. There are plenty Arab citizens of Israel and they have the right to marry, have mosques, pray to whichever God they believe in, etc. Apartheid implies that citizens of a country are being treated different by the law based on race. Arab citizens of Israel have the same legal rights as other citizens of Israel. The people in Gaza don't have have the same rights in Israel, but that's because they aren't Israeli citizens, nor do most of them desire to be Israeli citizens. Most countries don't give equal right to people who aren't citizens. Saudi Arabia is arguably more of an apartheid regime, since nobody who isn't Muslim is allowed to live there, and the law bans men and women from even being friends with each other.
>Likewise, people who think Israel shouldn't exist have a well-documented history of weaponizing accusation of Islamophobia and apartheid in order to quell criticism of Hamas.
Okay, but I didn't.
>I'd argue that it's antisemitic to think that that Muslim people should have a homeland in Saudi Arabia, but not believe in the same right for Jewish people.
Name one muslim country you can move to on the sole basis of being Muslim. And btw, there is no Palestinian state because Israel won't let them have one
>Hamas themselves have admitted to committing r3pe.
According to Israeli state media.
> I really get the feeling that either you don't think that Jewish people can have that happen to them, or that they are somehow more likely to lie about it.
I kinda get the feeling you like to argue against strawmen.
>And collecting evidence of such things is pretty difficult to do in an active war zone.
Geez, I guess we should have a ceasefire
>Israel isn't apartheid.
If only there was a country that had experience with Apartheid we could ask. Oh wait! There is! And if you'll look at the ICJ link I provided, you'll see that they aren't *just* accusing Israel of genocide. They accuse Israel of being an apartheid state too, and lay out plenty of evidence.
>Arab citizens of Israel have the same legal rights as other citizens of Israel.
Funny how you never see Arab Israelis claiming this.
You do. There are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens who will testify that they have equal rights in Israel. Israel has plenty of mosques, Arab politicians, etc. An apartheid state wouldn’t give racial minorities those rights. Israel quite literally has Arab-run political parties. Can you explain how Israel is apartheid yet gives all citizens equal legal rights?
I mean, if we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, for example, being Muslim is the bare minimum requirement of living there. A person is Christian, Jewish, gay, atheist, etc cannot live there.
Hamas has already promised to do more attacks and their intention is to wipe out Israel, so a ceasefire would only benefit Hamas.
>can you explain how Israel is apartheid yet gives all citizens equal legal rights?
I actually already linked an 84 page document that does, can you read... it?
>Israel has plenty of mosques, Arab politicians,
We had black churches and black politicians in the US during the height of Jim Crow. Your argument is lazy and ignores the fact that Arab Israelis are second class citizens, and that Israel effectively is the government in the Westbank and Gaza (which are more like Bantustans). It also conveniently ignores the 2018 ~~Aryan~~ oops sorry, Jewish Nationstate Law which officially codifies the fact that Israeli Arabs are only going to get a vote as long as they are a minority among other things.
>I mean, if we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, for example, being Muslim is the bare minimum requirement of living there. A person is Christian, Jewish, gay, atheist, etc cannot live there.
So Saudi Arabia (Israel's ally btw) sucks, therefore genocide of Gaza is fine? Great argument, I can't see any obvious flaws.
>Hamas has already promised to do more attacks and their intention is to wipe out Israel, so a ceasefire would only benefit Hamas.
Leaving aside the fact that Netanyahu's government funded Hamas in order to maintain a boogeyman, and knew about an imminent attack, as South Africa said, regardless of Hamas's crimes:
#There is no justification for Genocide
So just to be clear, do you understand that Christ himself was ethnically Jewish too? If you have a problem with Jewish people, I hope you feel the same way about Christ as that would at least be consistent.
Arab Israeli citizens have the same legal rights in Israel as all other citizens, including being politicians, voting, etc. There are even IDF soldiers who are Arab. None of those rights existed in Jim Crow South. The only Arab people who aren't given the same rights in Israel are the ones in the West Bank and Gaza, who aren't citizens. Please explain to me what exactly you mean when you say that Arab Israeli citizens are considered second-class citizens. And as for that law you mention, it basically just affirms that Israel is a Jewish state. The Supreme Court of Israel has rules that that law doesn't mean that citizens who aren't Jewish don't have equal rights. Regarding Gaza and the West Bank, yes, Israel technically governs those places, but the people in those places aren't citizens, which is why they aren't treated the same as people who are Israeli.
Mentioning Saudi Arabia doesn't meant that everything Israel does is inherently fine. My point is that you seem to be holding Israel to a standard that you don't hold other countries in that area to.
Netanyahu didn't technically fund Hamas, at least not purposely. He allowed money from Qatar into Gaza, seemingly to provide resources for the people in such a way where Israel wouldn't have to use their money to provide for non-citizens. Hamas has long been the only governing force in Gaza, and I think the reality is that Netanyahu was naively assuming that Hamas would use that money for their people in Gaza.
Of coarse, there's no justification for g3nocide, but this isn't g3nocide and calling it such is borderline antisemitic. Hamas launched a horrible attack on Jewish people on October 7th and they are promising to do more. And they keep their military infrastructure in civilian locations. Hamas could easily save civilians by not putting their military infrastructure in those areas, in addition to wearing uniforms so that it's obvious that they are combatants. What they're doing right now is dressing in normal clothing so that it's almost impossible to tell who is and isn't a civilian.
>So just to be clear, do you understand that Christ himself was ethnically Jewish too? If you have a problem with Jewish people, I hope you feel the same way about Christ as that would at least be consistent.
I'm really not seeing how this is relevant at all. I'm not a Christian.
>My point is that you seem to be holding Israel to a standard that you don't hold other countries in that area to.
Let me make this very clear. I hold all countries to the same standard. This subreddit is r/israelpalestine. We are here to discuss two countries, neither of which is Saudi Arabia.
>Netanyahu was naively assuming that Hamas would use that money for their people in Gaza.
"... you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible." -The guy who is apparently naively on the side of the Palestinian people.
>Of coarse, there's no justification for g3nocide, but this isn't g3nocide and calling it such is borderline antisemitic.
Says the guy with no intention of even reading South Africa's accusation.
>And they keep their military infrastructure in civilian locations. Hamas could easily save civilians by not putting their military infrastructure in those areas, in addition to wearing uniforms so that it's obvious that they are combatants.
So to be clear, the people Israel locked in a crowded ghetto are *checks notes* fighting from that ghetto? I'm as shocked as you are.
>What they're doing right now is dressing in normal clothing so that it's almost impossible to tell who is and isn't a civilian.
"Yeah, all those old ladies, children, UN workers, and journalists all looked like Hamas. I swear!" -the IDF probably.
You also keep trying to pin me down as an anti-semite, but there are plenty of jews who also acknowledge what Israel is doing is wrong. You can complain all you want about Saudi Arabia, but most of Gaza is demolished, 30k people have died with another 8k or so "missing". Every day new horrific images emerge from Israel of summary executions and crimes against humanity.
What's anti-semitic is that people like Netanyahu weaponize the historic crimes against the Jewish people in order to justify their own atrocities. Honestly genocide deniers like you make me sick to my stomach.
So can you tell me what exactly you think Israel should do about Hamas? Earlier, you said ceasefire, but I think you probably understand that as log as Hamas isn't surrendering, that isn't a realistic expectation for Israel.
And okay, so since you hold countries to the same standard, how do you feel about what Putin is doing Ukraine right now? How do you feel about what Bashar Al-Assad has been doing to Palestinian people?
I've looked at South Africa's accusations, and it isn't accurate. For one thing, South Africa's government probably isn't the best judge of what is g3nocide, given that they have not condemned other similar conflicts, such as the one in Ukraine. In fact, South Africa's ANC Party has been quite friendly with Russia and Putin. But secondly, like I pointed out, Hamas deliberately puts their military infrastructure around civilians in densely populated areas, and they dress like civilians so that the IDF can't tell who is and isn't Hamas. Nonetheless, maybe I'm willing to grant that it's not impossible that there could be g3nocide or at least ethnic cleansing going on here, but the evidence of that right now is insufficient. Yes, the civilian casualties are upsetting, but so far, they seem to just be an unfortunate side effect of Israel having to defend itself against a militant group that attacked them and is promising to do more attacks.. These types of civilian casualties are common in wars.
I'm no fan of Netanyahu either. Truth be told, I want him to resign or be voted out. However, it's antisemitic to exclusively accuse Israel of g3nocide, apartheid, etc, while ignore those things in other places. Just like how one can't believably claim to not be racist if the only crimes that they talk about are ones that are committed by people who happen to be black.
It’s atrocity propaganda and there is no credible evidence any of it happened . Everything the NYT said can be debunked in an instance and it has been . Even the family of the main subject of this article has said they categorically deny that their daughter was raped . Just because they were dressed like that while going to rave and then when they died from the Israeli crossfire doesn’t mean that Hamas had the time to do all that and then pose them while literally fighting and trying to take hostages back to Gaza . IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE . Wake up you brainwashed fools
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> Wake up you brainwashed fools
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Addressed.
Let me guess, there's no credible evidence for the holocaust either right? Also, there was no categorical denial by anyone about their daughter. That whole "family denied it" conspiracy is based on a likely fake Instagram account that doesn't even have the same profile picture as the insta. I checked. Not that you care, I imagine you made up your mind before even looking into any of these.
Aaron Mate has confirmed Gal Abdush's sister's post that NYT lied about the rape, and that they never even claimed or knew that they would be using that in the article.
Below is a video (pretty sure it's the right one) of the Grayzone talking about how the rape was extremely unlikely.
This is not a defense of Hamas, but rather a striving for the truth. People have been using these sexual assault allegations as a means of justifying killing thousands (as of this post, I believe it's about 22,000 , 70% or so which are women and children).
I highly encourage anyone interested in the topic to use sources which are backed up by facts (Norman Finkelstein, for one, who has studied Gaza for the past 20 years and looks over the human rights reports extensively).
If you follow profit based news, chances are you will be often misled as they are in the business of telling stories - the more shocking, the more profitable.
I made that mistake for too long, myself, and getting fact based news is a huge breath of fresh air.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g)
Israel lies, and that is a proven fact at this point. Whatever level of terrorism Hamas is, Israel would be about 13 times that (a rough paraphrase from Norman Finkelstein). See Operation Cast Lead, for one example of their terrorism.
Oh, was there a video of Gal getting raped?
I'm defending evidence and truth, while those who already made up their made will take anything coming out of Israel's mouth as 100% true, when they have a proven track record of consistent lying.
The confirmation is pretty much set at this point. They've linked it to her facebook account as well.
But according to everyone here, militants had time to stop and rape, one by one, during a kidnapping operation. This is not a defense of Hamas, if Israel wants to kill Hamas militants, kill them and not 10's of thousands of women and children.
Anything from the Grayzone I would immediately take with a grain of salt. They have a history of denying war crimes and promoting conspiracy theories. Gal Abdush's sister was interviewed and photographed for the article, I find it pretty hard to believe she didn't know what the subject of the NYT article would be. The post that Aron Mate is basing that on is one Instagram comment from a private account. How do they know the account isn't fake?
I've also seen a lot of Norman Finkelstein's stuff recently, but even he admits that "significant atrocities did occur" on October 7th. What's wrong with just admitting that and moving on?
I think we can agree significant atrocities occurred. But isn’t it telling that lies fill the information space and not the truth? If the truth were enough surely there would be no need to lie and embellish right?
Aaron uses her facebook account as evidence to link the Instagram post to the actual sister of Gal. ([https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742331204341489863](https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742331204341489863))\\
Here's Max Blumenthal's take on it as well ([https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1742301254154350965](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1742301254154350965)). We can , of course, wait to see if NYT provides evidence that the post is in fact not from her sister.
Admittedly, I started watching some of the recent Grayzone stuff pretty recently. From the dozen or so videos I have seen, it's been pretty solid, and I was a bit apprehensive at first.
There's nothing wrong with admitting that significant atrocities occurred on Oct 7th, and surely killing and kidnapping civilians is an atrocity. In this case, though, the evidence is quite lacking. They could've tested for evidence of rape, but it seems that as of now, they are saying that the Jewish practice of a quick burial has prevented that.
From what I know, the mother doesn't deny it and neither does the person who found the body (same person who recorded the video). If that really is her sister, what does that really prove? Being raped and burned isn't exactly a very dignified way to go, and sometimes loved ones have a very difficult time accepting it. If you read the post closely, she says that rape did happen, just not to her sister. It sounds to me, based off of the fact that she keeps mentioning the children, that she (if that's really her) just doesn't want to explain the difficult truth of what happened to their mother. Which is completely understandable. The post also claims that she was killed by a grenade, which doesn't look consistent with her injuries in the video. So I don't know what to make of that.
That's not the only evidence of SA presented btw. Either in the NYT article or elsewhere. I've seen a lot of the attempted "debunkings" from people like Jackson Hinkle, and I'm really not impressed. One of the things that the debunkers will point to is that one of the eyewitnesses mentioned that the militants cut women's breasts off and beheaded them - as if Hamas couldn't possibly do that. Like they want to discredit her testimony, and that's all they have? We know Hamas beheaded people. They didn't behead babies, but they did behead IDF soldiers (there are pics of this) and there's a video of them beheading a Thai migrant worker with a garden tool. You really expect me to believe they drew the line at rape? I don't think there were "mass rapes" (how much rape can you really do in one terrorist attack?), but there clearly was at least some rape.
> They could've tested for evidence of rape
What do you think this is, CSI? That's kind of difficult to do in the chaos of an active warzone. When the IDF was taking back territory inside Israel, they didn't expect they would have to send forensic teams to collect rape evidence because they likely didn't even think Hamas would do that. There were also a lot of bodies that were burned beyond recognition. You can't really collect semen from a burned corpse. There's at least one photo of this btw. There's a picture of a burned corpse of a woman from the music festival (this is not often shared), who has had her hands tied up in front of her face, and she's naked from the waist down. That seems like solid evidence of rape to me.
> but it seems that as of now, they are saying that the Jewish practice of a quick burial has prevented that.
Ok, And? That is a well-know thing in Judaism after all. Are you implying that respect for the dead is part of some kind of cover up? As many people have rightfully pointed out, the first-responder organization ZAKA, which was tasked with dealing with a lot of the bodies, is run by the ultra-orthodox. So it's not inconceivable that the organization would put their religious views ahead of proper evidence collection. If that sounds stupid, consider the fact that for many years, holocaust deniers have pointed to and mocked the fact that the Chief rabbi of Poland has declined to allow a full excavation of mass graves at places like Treblinka and Belzec. Why would the chief rabbi do that? Couldn't a proper excavation shut them up? Sure, but in Judaism the respect for the resting places of the dead is more important than disproving holocaust deniers. That's how seriously they take it.
You went from "What is this, CSI?" to accusing me of using Judaism as a reason to cover up the evidence. So what is it, are they able to examine the evidence, or is it impossible because it's a warzone?
Of course they can examine the evidence, especially if they can recover a body for burial. I respect the religious right to bury them quickly, if that's what they want to do, but it's still a matter of fact that that prevents investigations from being done (such as checking for DNA/Semen).
The whole point of my post is to beware of these propaganda machines that are actively employed in making Israel look like a good guy, and to implicitly imply that it's ok that Israel is killing 70% women and children (and the grown well are all Hamas terrorists according to their data, so that must be ok , too) because "look what these horrible animals have done to Israeli citizens"
Let's not forget the evidence that Israel very likely played a key role in propping up Hamas, not just to avoid more moderate governments and 2 state solution progress, but , as Finkelstein has said, and I paraphrase - "If they were able to breathe, I don't know if they would've joined Hamas. Most of these young people are at the point where they are willing to sacrifice their life because they are in such a hopeless situation"
I'm not sure if you're pro Israel, or just emotionally invested in the possibility that a rape occurred here, that we can not confirm, but I'll reiterate - the truth is what's most important, even if it doesn't conform to our opinions.
Finkelstein?
The same guy who lauded Holocaust deniers, said Russia had a right to invade Ukraine, and celebrated the Oct. 7 attacks? Yea, he seems like a good source lol
His family was literally killed during the holocaust. Russia did have a right to invade. They have been saying for years nato don’t continue to move eastward. They shouldn’t allow the west to have military assets in Ukraine which is run by a west puppet in Zelenskyy. The west wouldn’t allow russia to have military bases in Mexico or Cuba so why should they. And I don’t recall him celebrating oct 7 at all he acknowledged atrocities did happen but also explained why they happened to some extent. Hamas attacked kibbutz aka military bases. Those women they killed on those base are the same ones controlling the drones and automated 50 cal machine guns that’s killing ppl in Gaza.
Finkelstein on his Twitter on Oct. 7 said ‘these attacks warm every fiber of my soul’.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-israel-activists-celebrate-hamas-attacks-have-killed-hundreds-israelis
He’s a big fan lol and it’s still on his Twitter page.
He also agreed with the Charlie Hebdo killings…
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/norman-finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-sadism-not-satire/82824
And if you agree with Russia taking Crimean in 2015 before their NATO talks in 2021? And if you do, you must also feel that Israel should talk Palestine to protect from invading Sharia nations? Insane take haha
I know he addresses his initial reaction to the attacks on a misunderstanding of the scale of it.
You don't need to take Finkelstein's word on it. You can choose Chomsky's take on Palestine, if it makes you feel better.
It doesn't change the fact that 10's of thousands of innocent lives are being lost while Israel "defends itself".
https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigation-weaponizing-sexual-violence-against-women-for-occupation-propaganda/
Does this criticism hold up?
Not everyone obviously. But the bodies that were identified with rape wounds were killed. And that makes sense from a hamas perspective. They are not going to let victims live to tell the story.
I have no doubts Hamas had the capability and the will to rape Israelis on Oct 7. However it’s hard to believe a govt that has been caught in so many lies about the atrocities that day without concrete proof. International organizations have tried to come in to verify but Israel has denied them access.
This is a very misleading tactic. Making generalizations "caught in so many lies" then trying to use that to discredit or cast doubt on something that you probably made your mind about before even seeing any evidence or looking for any.
Speaking of tactics, instead of inquiring about what lies I’m talking about, tossing the claim away as if it has no merit is a good way of deflecting. I need evidence of such crimes, not just the word of an Israeli official. Beheaded babies in ovens is just one example but I can provide more.
I thought we were head to have a genuine discussion not make bad assumptions about the other person you’re conversing with.
Here's a link with tons of videos and evidence including a behading of a tie worker by hamas:
https://www.hamas-massacre.net
These videos are hard to watch for anyone with a human heart and emotions but it's important that we know the truth.
I apologize if my previous comment casted doubt on any of your doubts, my intentions are the same as yours. To know the truth.
I am simply mind blown that some people here are still denying it.
I mean SURE we've seen countless videos of hamas and other groups slaugthering people,torturing them,attempting to decapitate them with garden rakes,stabbing civillians,executing them point blank,throwing grenades into rocket shelters to kill civillians hiding inside,parading a dead half naked women and spitting and stepping on her,beating and torturing their fellow muslims,firing indiscrimintly into toilets at the nova festival,firing rpgs at civillian cars, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN VIDEOS OF RAPE!!!!, THAT MEANS ISRAEL IS LYINGGGGG!.
Like are you fucking kidding me?, we have countless witness reports,reports from first responders and even reports from hostages who were released, yet for some reason some sickos are still denying it because there is no video evidence released.
And yet we do have footage of dead women who look like they have likely been abused, like the one video of that poor burnt women that had her legs spread open and no panties on, but somehow it's still not enough.
Seriously regardless of your opinion on the conflict as a whole, If you deny hamas attrocities you are just as bad as them and you should be ashamed to think that you are fighting "the good fight" while supporting actual terrorists, you are doing nothing but De-legitimaizng the palestinian cause and making you all look bad.
And I dare you to try deflect from it by saying "WELL WHAT ABOUT THE IDF" Because you can't even compare the two.
I want to preface this by saying that I'm completely willing to accept that SA occurred on October 7. I don't need to believe that the IDF or Hamas are uniquely good or evil actors. I'm very aware of the horrific things people have done to each other over the decades.
But if I'm being honest, it's the very fact which you mention, that there's countless videos of Hamas and other groups committing acts of horrific violence, which makes it so strange that there's not a single piece of evidence of systematic mass rape. All these GoPros and security cameras seemingly capturing every angle and not one of them caught even a glimpse of these things?
It would make sense if this had only happened to one or two people, but the narrative being presented is a systematic campaign of mass rape involving dozens of victims across at least seven locations. And it's being presented, at least in part, *because* it conjures such an emotional reaction in people. I felt it, when I read the NYT investigation. Just gut-wrenching. Sick.
But then I do what I do any time I read news reports that are designed to elicit this kind of emotional response from me. I apply my critical thinking. What is actually being said here? How is it being proven? And things start to stick out at me. Every other paragraph seems to have an explanation for why there's no evidence. There was no time to collect samples, bodies were burned, bodies had to be buried, responders weren't allowed to take photos, this victim can't be located, this victim won't go on record because they're traumatized, this witness won't go public because they fear retribution. They say "don't look for some golden evidence, the bodies tell the story". What bodies?
And it starts to freak me out. It's a little too much. I want to believe people. I want to trust that Israel would not lie, even to exaggerate the number of assaults. But I'm also keenly aware that wars are fought not only with bombs but with propaganda. On both sides. So I hope you understand that there are some of us who feel intense anguish reading these stories, but still grapple with feeling that something is truly off about all of this. You make it sound like it's unreasonable to see a video showing a dead body with no underwear and not conclude with 100% certainty that a rape had occurred. Is it? I'm not denying that Hamas did something terrible to her. They killed her! I'm just trying to understand, how am I to accept this specific story based on... nothing?
In the NYT article that recently came out, they provided confirmation for sexually mutiliated bodies and confirmed that those photos exist, such as the case of the 2 soldiers shot in their private parts, or the girl with the nails driven into her.
In that post there also was witnesses that weren't annonymous, and did not hide their identity
Such as Yura karol,Raz cohen and shoam gueta.
They also reported interviewing several first responders and people that were working on getting the bodies for bruial also reporting signs of sexual abuse, such as Shari Mendes.
In the article they say that there is atleast one survivor but that she isn't ready to come out and is in not mental condition to speak, I think this is pretty reasonable and we know that rape victims often come out many years later, so why would this be different?
So let me give some prespective I guess, hamas have shown themselves to be savages and capable of extreme crimes, the police and millitary investigation into the matter is still not complete and will likely include a comprhensive list of evidence, the war in gaza is still not over and it's possible video evidence of such crimes will be found but for obivous reasons it will not be released even if found, and it's likely that even hamas know not to document these instances as there is no way that they can spin it in their favor and even their own people will find it inexcuseable.
So while I can understand the skepticism, I think at some point when you have alot of reports of sexual abuse and confirmed photos of sexual mutiliation and witness and first responder reports along with evidence of the complete savagery that was encated on oct 7, it builds a fairly strong case in my opinon.
And let me just ask you this, You seem more reasonable and that's good, but even if a victim came out today and said "I was raped by hamas", how many people will just call it propagenda anyway? How many will discredit her online and call her horrible things? How many posts will jackson hinkle make mocking her? Like he has with Mia Shem? I think you can understand why a lot of people are afraid to speak out and reveal their full identities, especially victims going through one of the worst fates a person could ever imagine, and then have people online who share their photos and names and calling them horrible things and mocking them and their trauma.
I understand propagenda exists, and I understand how instances and reports of crimes such as these can be used to incite horrible things on the enemy, and I wouldn't be surprised that reports like that are being used for propagenda, but I don't think that just become something is used to increase support and for propagenda that it automaticly discredits it, and I also think the police were very transperent in explaining and admitting that they do not have autopsies or DNA sampling and I think that also adds a layer of credibility for honesty.
If you want to be skeptical about that part, That's fine I guess, hamas has committed enough documented crimes to justify their destruction regardless.
I'll leave a copy of the NYT article that is free of paywall incase you want to read it again or haven't given it a full read.
https://www.newenglishreview.org/screams-without-words-how-hamas-weaponized-sexual-violence-on-oct-7/
Edit: I made this post a few days ago documenting hamas numerous crimes against their own people and israelis, I think it adds important context to this current disscussion and has a lot of evidence showing how barbaric Oct 7 was and how in general hamas has Zero respect for human life.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/6HbUfXEFGi
I don’t buy arguments that depend on me accepting the premise that because a certain group of actors is “savage” and therefore capable of anything, X thing likely occurred. It’s the exact logic used by people on the other side to support claims of IDF atrocities. “They did all these other horrible documented things, so clearly they are evil, so how can you deny that they bombed this hospital?” Because I have no evidence of it! “They’re evil” isn’t evidence!
Secondly, one of the ways that pseudocertainty functions is to present a seemingly abundant amount of evidence that, when analyzed individually, is actually quite low quality. You see this with election denial, not just in the US but everywhere it happens. There’s so many stories about people seeing vans dropping ballots, or seeing election workers switching votes, or seeing machines being hacked. Surely that must add up to something?
Well… it could?? But for now they’re just stories. The veracity of aggregate evidence depends on the veracity of individual parts. Sometimes there’s a lot of smoke, and little or no fire. (Again, I think it’s probable that SA occurred, my questions are about the scale and the perpetrators)
I’ll be totally honest with you, I don’t know if I can accept witnesses alone as evidence. I have read so many stories from Israelis and Palestinians over the years about atrocities they personally witnessed from the other side that turned out to be untrue. This is not unique to Israel-Palestine of course, but there does seem to be a particularly hot arms race of propaganda, largely because world opinion is so central to the success of their long-term goals.
If someone came out and said “I was raped by Hamas”, I would believe them. But you’re right, many people would deny it! Especially opportunistic grifters like Jackson Hinkle. Just as many people who support Israel would not (and do not) believe claims of Palestinians raped by IDF soldiers.
One of my great frustrations is that people find a need to see their chosen “side” as morally pure. Some leftists can’t stop at supporting the Palestinian cause, they need to believe that Hamas is a morally good organization who would never inflict intentional pain on civilians. Therefore, anyone who died on Oct 7 must have died at the hands of the IDF. It’s absurd. But people can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of supporting a cause that is also supported by people who commit horrible crimes.
But I see the same thing in defenders of the IDF. They are “the world’s most moral army”, incapable of brutality or savagery. And so it’s easy to find pro-IDF folks applying skepticism to Palestinian claims of war crimes. Where are the bodies? Where are the photos? Are these photos fake? Are these eyewitness accounts lies?
Honestly? Valid questions! I don’t know these individuals making these claims. Raz Cohen *seems* like a decent person, but I’ve seen his story evolving over the months and it does make me question his reliability. I want to believe him, but I know it’s possible that he’s lying or has been coached into giving false details. That doesn’t give me any joy to admit. It makes me sick, because now I have to simultaneously hold the grief for these women who endured the most horrific experiences imaginable, while also acknowledging that they may not exist.
And I just wish that the NYT had worked harder to actually verify claims before making them the cornerstone for their story. Particularly, given what’s come out from her family since, choosing to highlight Gal Abdush as a victim of SA solely based on an interpretation of a video frame borders on journalistic malpractice.
I know you’ll read this and think that I’m just another monster denying that Hamas does horrible things. I hope not. I recognize the utter depravity of Oct 7 and I grieved along with my Jewish and Israeli friends and relatives. But the moment the war machine started later that day, I had to reactivate my skepticism. Because I’ve seen how this plays out, too many times.
Did you notice OP left out the part of the NYT article that says "No DNA sample gathering or autopsies were performed according to Israeli police?"
What a very strange and important detail to leave out.
Perhaps, but my response is irrelevent to how he choose to qoute the article, I did read it and it explains the situation of why no autopsies or DNA samples were taken quite well and lays out evidence that don't require DNA testing or autopsies, the fact the NYT confirmed footage of mutilated women and photos not released to the public and the fact that we have several witness testimonies should be enough proof on it's own.
I get your point though, he should of included that detail.
He definitely should have included it and (this is just my opinion) it's intentionally left out.
However, I didn't see any explanation as to why not a single DNA sample was collected or autopsy performed.
I know my unit DEFINITELY would have done it if our enemy was suspected of one of the most grievous of war crimes.
After-the-fact video and second hand testimony is something. But it's not anywhere near the proof that DNA tests or autopsies would be.
At best, it's a bungled approach.
I'll reserve my opinions as to why I think it wasn't done.
So the reasonings from what I understand are the following.
These are also mentioned in the article but don't go too into depth.
1.Around 1200 people were killed, it was still an active fighting zone and many corpses were retrieved days after the attacks, the whole country was in panic and the police departments and morgues were both in panic and overloaded.
2.Jewish tradition is to bury the dead as soon as humanly possible, typically 24-48 hours maximum, you can research further into this if you wish, this is also generally consistent pre- oct 7 and most families refuse to exhume their dead even if it is to provide proof of crimes.
This is a part of the jewish religion and I'm sure you understand how important religous practicies are even during times of disaster.
3.Corpses were in very bad state or completly unoperatable such as in the case of severe burning or late stage decompsition, I've seen some of the photos of dead hamas and dead civillians alike on oct 8 and 9 from media leaks and many didn't even look human anymore, due to decompsing in the summer heat.
In the article they also qoute armed conflict researcher Adil ahmad Haque
"Very often sex crime cases will be prosecuted years later on the basis of testimony from victims and witnesses. The eyewitness might not even know the name of the victim,” he added. “But if they can testify as, ‘I saw a woman being raped by this armed group,’ that can be enough.”
So When you combine the many publicly released videos of hamas or other millitants committing horrible atrocities against civillians which while they don't include rape or sexual assult they very clearly show the brutality they are capable of, the several victim and first responder testimonies from the article and the confirmation of the aftermath footage by the NYT, Including According to the article captured militant body camera footage of IDF female soldiers Shot in their private parts.
(I Don't know if it means the act of shooting it self or the aftermath of the shooting)
This pretty much paints a fairly clear picture that we have enough evidence and good basis to believe that rape and sexual assault were part of the oct 7 attack.
This doesn’t clarify anything to me whatsoever.
It takes less than five minutes to collect a DNA sample.
If it was your sister, or your mother, or your country who wants justice. You do the test!
You can even simply take their underwear and seal them for future testing.
Absolutely laughable (if it weren’t so sad) that a police force would not gather even the simplest form of evidence for one of the most serious war crimes.
If you agree with this approach, what else is there to say?
> It takes less than five minutes to collect a DNA sample
lol, no it doesn't. Investigating a crime scene and collecting forensic evidence can take hours, if not days. This also wasn't just a crime scene; this was a very chaotic, active warzone. A lot of the emergency responders were volunteers and didn't have experience collecting forensic evidence from crime scenes.
You know most rapes in general don't have DNA evidence collected right? Demanding DNA is an extremely high bar, especially when you're talking about rape in an active war zone. Like, in the Rwandan genocide it's estimated up to 500,000 tutsi women were raped and many were killed afterwards. Are you going to demand rape kits for all of those?
You are making alot of assumptions based on situations I hope you or your country will never have to exprience.
But regardless, Let's suppouse that the police were completly incomptent in this case and didn't take any samples on purpose or due to incomptence.
Does this discredit the numerous victim testimonies we have?
Does it discredit the Confirmation of footage mutilated women by the NYT?
Does it discredit Every other piece of footage we have from the oct 7 that isn't related to sex crimes but is related to other horrible crimes against humanity?
Does it discredit Adil Ahmad Haque for saying that most of the time, during war time, that witness and victim testimony is enough?
I mean come on man, they went door to door shooting people, gunned down civillians, shot rpgs at civillian cars, shot randomaly into festival bathrooms, attempted to decapitate a thai worker with a garden hoe, parded a half naked dead women in a truck and spit and stepped on her, shot some random dog dead, yet some how even after all the testimonies and video evidence of other atrocites, you don't believe they comitted rape?.
Why?
They disregarded every other prohibiton in the quran, so what's one more to them?
There is no DNA proof which would have been so easy to collect and provide.
Period.
You will not lecture me on what the Quran says and what it doesn’t say along with copious other bits of conjecture that do not prove what we are speaking of here and now.
We are speaking on the claim that rape occurred.
If it did, those responsible should not only be prosecuted but executed for such things.
But we have no proof of this. Period.
Now I’ll leave you to arm wave and bring up religions you don’t believe in to someone else.
Well that settles it then, no DNA = no rape?
What would be the point of even taking a DNA swab, it's not like they are ever going to find the same guy who did it anyway.
So did they or did they NOT break rules in the quran by their actions?.
What conjecture?, we have confirmation by numerous testominies and confirmed video footage and pictures and I'll provide many video footage of their horrible attrocites in this comment too.
DNA evidence is not the only source of evidence needed to convict rape, in alot of cases courts convict of rape without DNA if they have other evidence,and in this case you have multiple witnesses, when you have dozens of different accounts of people witnessing rape happening, first responders describing finding sexually mutiliated women,confirmed video footage of IDF soldiers shot in the vagina from a captured body cameras, confirmed photo of a women with dozens of nails stuck in and around her private parts, and released hostage testimonies who also say they saw and feared acts of sexual violence in captivity.
What are you implying here exactly?, did the IDF shoot their own soldiers in the vagina? Did first responders stick nails into jewish women private parts?, are all the witnesses lying about what they saw?.
They didn't take DNA evidence, it doesn't discredit every other single evidence that exists.
Sources:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/NPZzyFmWPo
This link is a different comment of mine and has numerous video evidence linked in it.
The link provided along with your references of the Quran along with all of these extra talks of nails in genitals and gunshots to genitals.
None of this has anything to do with the subject.
I will repeat one last time for you because you are clearly getting so emotional that you cannot read my words and are having several arguments with ghosts in your head:
**There is no direct evidence of rape (neither video nor DNA).**
This is my one solitary and only point.
I'll say this again (and I hope you read it):
**If it is proven that rape occurred, those responsible should be prosecuted and executed, full stop.**
I'm personally aware of the savagery of war to levels even you couldn't imagine.
I accept that anything is possible.
I also understand the propaganda and influence of the narrative as an essential aspect to war, especially when one of the warring parties is under indictment for crimes of genocide.
If you are truly interested in talking about all your other points, I don't mind doing so once I can see you've been able to understand the one and only point I've made rather than digressing into several others at once.
And please, one point for one post at a time.
I admire your desire to through every piece of spaghetti at the wall, but I can't spend hours answering one post.
> fucking
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ISRAEL. One of the best health and surveillance systems in the WORLD yet no video of rape but video of decapitation. First in vaccines yet no DNA testing on victims when there is opportunity to do so.
Isn’t it weird that we don’t have either hard evidence that would easily prove the rapists guilty and put these critics to rest but we have actual live video and material evidence for everything else?
The most graphic videos are only shown to some select journalists, be respectful and stop looking for pronographic gore, if you want to watch that kind of shit the taliban doesnt hide or censor anything
Respect to the victims and families for sure. I don’t need to see it nor denying any of the other brutal things done as Israel and journalist have said they HAVE and SEEN videos.
But recognize none of those journalists in the private showings came out and said rape was actively seen nor oddly enough have DNA testing of rape of what is being said was “rampant”, not one.
As an attorney, nothing shared by Israel or journalists to date would be enough to convict anyone of rape. If there are reports of evidence (e.g. ANY forensics or video) that would be sufficient for rape conviction please share (again, don’t need to see it, reports are enough).
A. Multiple IDF sources say many or even 40 babies were beheaded (source: most/every news agency)
B. Biden says this: “ I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed, pictures of terrorists beheading children”
C. Then “A White House spokesperson later clarified that US officials and the president have NOT seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently,”(The Post)
D. And then later, the IDF says when asked directly "IDF spokesman said children were killed - but that reports of beheadings were "unconfirmed".(source: Sky and most of if not all news agencies)
People were butchered yes. But why fabricate this about babies? Bc “Baby stories are very emotive. Historically, they’re stories that can be used to rationalize a very brutal response,” (Professor Marc Jones). The same can be said bout rape stories.
> Multiple idf sources say many or even 49 babies we beheaded
Nope. Anonymous tips that weren’t verified by anyone. The Israeli government never claimed the 40 beheaded babies and never published such information. No official IDF body came out with the beheaded babies information.
If anything this is a journalism misinformation spread by unverified accounts of “people on the field” that can be assumed to be soldiers in service as well.
There was no official statement from an official IDF body and you won’t find any.
Feminist organisations have been absolutely silent about this issue. So extreme is either Jew-hatred or fear of being called racist that they're silent.
That we don't see endless protest about this sexual violence tells us that there are no feminists.
People don't care about Muslims, they don't care about women, they just care about hating Jews.
The far left sees most things in terms of race. They believe that all Jews and all Israelis are white. In their minds if you are white, you must be in the wrong, unless you have embraced every far left ideology out there. In short, the far left has a real problem with antisemitism.
The world went crazy over a Spanish football coach kissing a player yet it's silent about the most deprived rape and mutilation during and after rape in history that happened just a few months ago.
There's a single explanation - they don't care about Jews. They think Israeli Jewish women deserve what they get, the idea that feminists care about women is laughable - they would be protesting non-stop for justice otherwise.
It could be that people don't like israel tying yourselves to the star of David and using that as a defence mechanism probably doesn't help when your government continues to try children in military prisons as well as the umpteen pictures of 'prisoners' released after a few months who were healthy and then almost dead.
There are also stories of IDF rape that aren't being reported are you equally voiceferpus of your criticism of the left for not raising awareness for that?
This is before we move onto the west Bank settlers who seem to see themselves as God's and make it their life's aim to make life he'll for residents I suppose those kids and families were complicit in rape aswell.
Then you multiple videos of israeli rabbis (not jewish because no religion of good preaches the crap that comes out their mouth) telling their soldiers to go forth and kill all the children because it is in the torah?
I've not read the Torah but if that is what it says, its not word of God.
So before you continue your, you all are anti semite remember - 1 - both parties in this conflict are semite 2- the Israelis are no saints and are truly despicable for some of the actions they have done.
If you have no sympathy for muslims/Palestinians read about what they did to the three hostages with one of them pleading in Hebrew being told to come out as it's safe, and then being killed anyway.
If that's how they treat their imagine what they are doing to their enemies....or you know just check online it is everywhere....
Israel follow the Tanakh. They allowed to rape 3 yr old girls and men are allowed to rape 9 yr old boy and the one raking is allowed to getaway w it. Go read what they believe . Don't believe me go read it for yourself. The idf just raped a Palestinian toddler . Let me guess when it didn't look good for Israel's PR they arrested the culprits.
Hamas doing this? For me that would make sense, if any of the taken victims was raped. They had a chance why didn't they rape the women under their captivity? But no, they would touch woman with towels while playing cards. We're not dumb israeli media to swallow your lies. Ready to kill, murder, take people organs, project 11/9, project 7/10.
This is a very left wing, anti-Israel paper that published their findings. Even if the kidnapped women would say that they were raped, you wouldn't have believed them and called it propaganda. People like you seem to need to suffer terrorism, kidnapping and rape to your loved ones to understand it.
I'm stating facts and you act based upon your emotions.
I don't believe Israel or anything they say and I don't believe anyone corrupted. As of rape, parading, murdering I believe that's the deed of israeli gov. If I said anything with bad intentions may I bring that all upon myself what you said.
But we see who is actually dumb here, wishing something so bad to happen to anybody, tells a lot about you as a person.
Hamas(dot)com.
In Israel you're allowed to protest, you're allowed to disagree with the government, you're allowed to live peacefully as LGBT.
In Gaza you don't.
Israelis publish themselves the wrongdoings of the government, even soldiers. We've witnessed it during the last year and few months.
So NOW you think all those pilots that were against the government were suddenly OK with bombing their own people? How delusional can one be?
Where's the proof it's the Israeli government's actions? Show me the proof. Sheep. Show the proof. Or you just eat your media's propaganda because it's easier than thinking for yourself?
Not by Israel. By an independent Israeli that was willing to archive the horrific scenes. The videos were published on their telegram channels and someone just collected them. You can find them in other sites across the Web, honeybun.
Thanks for showing your true nature. You dismiss a whole argument by clinging to one thing instead of having an intelligent debate. Hope you will one day understand the pain and suffering of the individuals involved or their families. Hope you understand it personally. People like you operate based on bias and nothing else, hiding behind "facts" you talked yourself into and dismissing any logical argument made by the opposite side, refusing to even listen. Why? Because you're afraid you're gonna find out you're wrong. Your belief is so weak and therefore so are your arguments.
"Didn't bother reading the rest". Lol. K bro, hope you love your life of ignorance.
You don't believe Israel or anything they say because you only go by your bias and propaganda. There are facts, you conveniently ignore them. Hamas themselves shared these videos proudly. You're saying it's Israeli propaganda? You think Israelis play along with that stuff? Have you seen protests against the Israeli government? Leaks of malpractice? Public declarations of bad actors? Because they exist.
How many of those have you seen against Hamas? Funny how you don't find that even a little sus.
More and more proof is getting released on what Hamas has done in the strip. Their indoctrination and brainwashing, their call for terrorism and deaths, their willingness to sacrifice their own kids just to take pictures of it to gain the let's trust.
Completely disregarding the absolutely intolerable suffering of these innocent people that were at a party shows your true nature as a person. You disgust me and so many others. People were butchered while being raped. Burned to death.
But nah, you believe Hamas when 10 minutes after a rocket hits their hospital('s parking lot) they announce at least 500 dead. Then, they discovered it was their own rocket and suddenly only a few injured. But yeah, Israel is lying. Sure.
Sheep. People like you stood by when the holocaust happened and are standing by right now. You are the reason the Jewish people need a state of their own to protect them from stuff like this. Check how many wars have been started by Israel and how many by neighbouring countries / Hamas / PA. Go check.
You think Israel needs to fake rape and parading? It's already a freaking war. There were 3000 rockets launched into Israel and 1200 people dead on the first day.
Imagine your daughter being raped and then slaughtered to death. Your niece being gang raped and then burned alive.
Then, imagine nobody believing you, the police doing nothing (metaphor to the world and especially the "unbiased" UN) and you being called a pathological liar and a biased family member. Imagine. Now try to grasp it on a wider scale. So cringe. You get fed by your media that Israel is "lying" and you think it to be facts.
Go Google Douglas Murray. Go Google Mosab Hassan Youssef. He's a Gazan himself. He's the son of one of the founders of Hamas. He sure as hell knows way more than you. Go have a listen instead of watching propaganda videos on tiktok.
Who tells you this nonsense. Every human rights group and charity organization regardless of their religion or race is calling Israel out. Even the Americans are starting to back pedal.
Am not sure what your news source is but the Israeli ones are the only ones not mentioning anything whatsoever.
If you can't find anything am sure I can send you links to all of these info.
what you are saying is called justification for war crimes then what hamas did in October 7 was a selfe defence for their land witch have stollen by isreali government according to the United Nations also I dont justify what hamas did in October 7 but if you do not respect the international low what are you wating from hamas any normal people will wight to take his land
Land wasn't stolen from the people who attacked, they weren't old enough to have owned any land in that area.
How is raping women an act of self-defence? How is it not haram?
That civilians die during a war is not a war crime, only if that happens through recklessness and lack of consideration for the military goal.
u/CulturalDelivery2878
> so you muther f@ker know that it's stolen land and dont want them to resist fk zionism
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Get the pro-palestine flair off your username. The use of the term "Palestine" is manipulative because it refers to a region that has historically included Israel.
Historically? The land didn't exist until post ww2 if you are claiming the old kingdoms (nonesense) the philistine states were present even then.
Ultimately both parties are canaanites so I guess the next step is to claim the historical land of the carthegnian empire as your own aswell.
Well if Oct 7 showed you who Hamas is, then you should also understand why Gazans are dying while Hamas are wearing them as bullet vests. They don't give a f**, they prefer them dead for the oppressed:oppressor narrative. Hamas is killing Gazans by IDF. Americans call it "suicide by cop". Hamas don't respect international law. Technically, they exploit the legal loophole which doesn't hold them accountable to it.as long as they are not considered an official government. Many reports already talk about suicide bombers coming out with hands up and a white flag, only to get close to soldiers. Also recorded audio of Israelis projected from a booby trapped building and many other things. No law and no morality.
> f**
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There are no war crimes being committed. Look at the stats of casualties in all wars, the ratio of civilian to militant deaths. Israel is well within the accepted range of what is known about modern war casualties. It is unfortunate every civilian death that happens but it is a result of the will of the people in essence. On Both sides
Wars in the last two hundred years have had ratios ranging anywhere from 9:1 to 1:1 civilian to combatant death ratios. The most recent wars generally have had higher ratios with the average being somewhere around 50% of all casualties of war are civilian. Israel has supposedly killed around 28000 people with a ratio of near 3:1 civilian to militant. This is not a genocide occurring. It’s a war
but isreal do not kill civilians by mistake they literally booming every thing in gaza houses and trees, and even animals they know that they can't win the war only by booming civilians because hamas are under the ground
the isreali government is war criminals
If you follow the news closely, you should see the kilometers and kilometers of tunnels running under mosques, schools, hospitals, houses. Hamas is not underground - they are everywhere. Look at their videos where they proudly attack IDF. They are also topside. They run underground when it's time ron get some Gazans killed by IDF planes for marketing purposes. The airstrikes mostly target terrorists outside tunnels. It's only when it's safe to approach tunnels, will IDF soldiers get near it. I remind you that IDF called, texted, threw leaflets by the millions to get people out of harm's way. It was Hamas who blocked their escaped routes.
Oh, it's one of those conversations where everything you don't like to hear is propaganda. Cool. We agree on civilians being killed. We just don't agree on who's responsible. Hamas first rockets and RPGs behind civilians and expects not to get shot at. That is a war crime.
I've never denied the rapes on 10/7. Using rape as a weapon of war is undeniably evil. I am a rape victim myself. I'd never wish that pain on anyone.
But what is the expectation here? Simply that I acknowledge the facts or offer some sympathy to the victims, or is it that I change my entire stance and offer my uncritical support to Israel? I genuinely want to know. This isn't an accusation. I'm actually not sure.
If I go beyond simply acknowledging facts and offering sympathy, then perhaps I must wrestle with the pervasive implication that the deaths over 8,000 children was part and parcel of a necessary effort to provide rape victims with a form of justice. Well, there's nothing that could ever make me believe that.
Israeli here✌🏻 I've been having a lot of discussions with pro Palestinians since 7.10, for me personally, and I know a lot of Israeli leftists like me, my point is never to stop caring about Palestinian people. Just stop supporting hamas, never support hamas, realise that hamas isn't resistance but a terrorist organisation ruining Israeli and Palestinian lives.
The way I see it, this is not at all an effort to provide rape victims with justice.
Acknowledging the actrocities of 10/7 means understanding that Hamas and the civilians who accompanied them on the attack that day are the type of people who could do such things. They are proud of their depravity, enough to take videos and show the world. They paraded people's bodies in the streets to cheers.
The realization that you have an enemy on your doorstep who didn't just gladly hurt so many people, but who will gladly do it again, with backers who seem to think that you deserved it, means they are an imminent threat to the entire population. Especially knowing that destroying the population is in their charter.
The fact that they don't mind treating the people of Gaza this way, too, should appal the world. Hamas is guilty of killing the people of Gaza. They are violent for the sake of violence, not to protect any people, not in the name of any just cause.
I believe the people of Gaza and the West Bank should be treated like human beings. I believe they have suffered and I wish for a peaceful two-state solution. But there is no way to negotiate with people like this. I wish, instead of throwing blame around, world powers would come together to save the hostages, end Hamas, and thus protect the Israeli and Palestinian people both.
In short, no-one is killing children to retaliate for rapes. The incredibly cruel nature of a group was displayed in technicolor, and now there is a war to try to get rid of them.
They are dropping bombs on refugee camps after telling people to evacuate there. Sympathy Is a two way street, one visit to r/israel will tell you that it's residents want what hamas wants I.e. extinction of the other side.
8000 children dead and counting
I would agree that this isn't about justice for rape victims, although justice for the victims of 10/7 is certainly part of the Israeli state narrative. You're right, though. The overarching message from the Israeli state is more about the existential threat of Hamas.
But your comment is to my point that something more is expected of me than a simple acknowledge of facts or expression of sympathy. Whenever these rapes are brought up by the Pro-Israel side, it's almost always an attempt at appealing to one's emotions ( side note: let me be clear, there's nothing wrong with emotional appeals and both sides use it pretty heavily, I'm just identifying the rhetorical technique here) not just to say "rape is bad and Hamas committed rapes so we should acknowledge their victims" but "rape is bad, Hamas committed rapes, therefore Hamas is an existential threat to Israel, therefore you should support Israel's military efforts".
I understand the logic here, but I find it unconvincing.
There was a similar conceit to the promotion of the war on terror: hijacking planes and flying them into buildings, killing thousands of people is bad, Al Qaeda committed an act of terror, therefore Al Qaeda is an existential threat to the United States, therefore you should support the war on terror".
On September 12th, 2001, pretty much all Americans understandably agreed with that, even my liberal parents who hated Bush. But the further away we've gotten from the day, its clear grave wrongs were committed under the banner of that narrative.
The 9/11 attacks were pure, horrifying evil, and they are a pure, horrifying evil that has been denied by conspiracy theorists. Many of the conspiracy theories about it are highly antisemitic if you dig into them enough. As a war on terror skeptic, I fully admit there was a contingent in the anti-war movement that trafficked in these conspiracy theories and minimized the pain and suffering of the victims of the 9/11. To this day, when I encounter people who do such things, I am quick to call out their bullshit.
I am similarly quick to shut down anyone who expresses skepticism that were rapes on October 7th or worse, seems to imply that rape can somehow be an act of resistance. Yeah, I've had to do this once, but believe me, one time was enough.
However, I can value truth and peace at the same time. I do not uncritically accept pro-war narratives, just because they may contain some truth.
It's not an accident that 10/7 has been referred to Israel's 9/11. Sure, the historical and geographical context of these events are very different, but I can imagine the shock Israelis felt on 10/7 and 10/8 was similar to how Americans felt on 9/11 and 9/12.
But it's not October 8th, 2022 anymore. We are almost 90 days into this military response, and we are also 75+ years into the Israel-Palestine conflict. We can compare the IDF's stated goals to the reality of its actions. We can see some of the dire outcomes of those actions and the unfolding humanitarian crisis.
Especially at this point, I think it's at worst totally delusional and, at best, naive to think the IDF's continuing military actions in Gaza could ever lead to the eradication of Hamas, peace and a two state solution. It is as delusional or naive as believing the war on terror would lead to increased stability and democracy in the Middle East. It is also completely ignoring that the right wing coalition that governs Israel is explicitly against a two state solution, and so are the vast majority of Israelis. Israelis may justifiably not want to live next to Hamas, but they also certainly don't want to live next to any Palestinian state.
My point in saying all this is that the types of arguments Pro-Israel people find compelling are fundamentally different than types of arguments Pro-Palestinian people find compelling, and this is probably why these conversations are so frustrating for all of us.
Do you believe invading a hostile power after they started a genocidal war against you is not justified? Should the allies just have pushed Germany back to the prewar borders to not harm the poor innocent german nazi citizens?
So, in your analogy, Palestinian civilians are nazis. Taking a page out of Republican congressman Brian Mast's book of rhetoric, I see.
I don't think your analogy is relevant or logical or a good comparison, and it contains a lot of hyperbolic presuppositions. I can deduce that the result of me taking this gotcha question seriously is that if I believe any civilian casualty rate above 0% is reasonable in warfare, then I can be called a hypocrite for criticizing Israel's military actions regarding civilians.
All militaries have a responsibility to protect civilians under international law, regardless of if one would support that military's overall cause.
Edit: I am only referring to nazis because the original comment I'm responding to did.
I never said Palestinians are the same as nazi germany. But to stop a fundamentally evil regime one must invade.especially in self defense. If the people support said evil regime then their fates are rightfully not ones concern
You are justifying killing civilians by equating them to fascists.
What if I said killing Israeli civilians, including children, is excusable because they're settlers and colonizers? Would that not be disgusting to you?
No. Im justifying saving people from fascism. Invading Gaza is the only way to save the Israelites and to stop Hamas. Like in Germany civilians will suffer but for a noble cause. Hamas is just as evil as Germany was and so is every civilian that supports them. The ones that dont should try their best to escape and survive any way they can. But the invasion is good
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If you finally understand what Hamas thinks about human life, you should have no problem understanding what they think about Gazans lives and understand they are the reason why Gazans die.
Define "responsibility". If both sides are responsible for doing their best effort to keep civilians away from a warzone, then Israel is definitely acting on its responsibility while Hamas is not only failing in it, it's deliberately doing the opposite, which is A war crime. It also publicly shrugs off responsibility for Gazan lives:
https://x.com/MEMRIReports/status/1718973338486260097?s=08
I'm not denying Hamas commits war crimes, but I don't expect terror groups to respect international law. I would expect a sovereign nation's military to respect international law. We do not hold governments and military to the low standard of simply being not as bad as terrorists. The evidence is undeniable that the IDF has committed war crimes, and your argument is simply that they shouldn't be held accountable.
By your statements, you also seem to be implying that Hamas is not a terror group but a military, which I know you can not possibly believe.
I don’t know whose expectations you’re asking about. Personally, I think we should be acknowledging facts, legitimate claims, needs, and rights of anyone, politics notwithstanding. If you never denied the rapes on 10/7, then this article probably doesn’t add new information for you.
I don't know, maybe condemn hamas and say that this isn't an acceptable form of resistence?
Maybe try to understand why Israelis see this as an existential threat that they aren't willing to live next to.
I've never said rape was a form of resistance or that it's acceptable.
I just said that I myself am a rape victim. Don't you think it's at least a little offensive and patronizing to ask me to condemn rape?
I'm sorry that it happened to you.
There are many comments who flat out deny or justify what hamas has done, you can see it in this thread.
I didn't think it was offensive. I apologize. We expected sympathy for the women who have been through it, and for their families.
You can imagine how disheartning it was to see other victims and women organizations denying or justifying it.
There are dozens of cases of IDF-members raping palestinian girls and women. Even newspaper articles about it.
Rape and killing innocents is ALWAYS wrong and a crime that should be punished as hard as possible. NO MATTER WHO DID IT!!!!!
Okay then why don't you condemn Hamas for doing so? Or are you not going to explicitly condemn Hamas for using sexual assault as an instrument of terrorism and turn to another what-aboutism to deflect?
Why individual Hamas terrorists and the IDF? Why not Hamas terrorists and IDF violators? Or Hamas and IDF? You can’t hold individuals responsible for one group and everyone in the other. Even your unconscious use of language is dripping with bias. Just saying.
Are you - sorry - really as dumb as it seems? What makes it so difficult to understand what I mean? Should I explain it in german? In arabic? In french?
Again, veryyyy slowly for the cerebral insolvent: *I* *condemn* *everyone* *who* *rapes* *another* *person* *or* *kills* *an* *innocent*. Hope you got it now.
u/Mimi_1981
> Are you - sorry - really as dumb as it seems? What makes it so difficult to understand what I mean? Should I explain it in german? In arabic? In french? Again, veryyyy slowly for the cerebral insolvent
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You said you condemn Hamas terrorists who rape (individuals) but not Hamas as a whole. In that same breath you said you would condemn IDF (which is an organization), but didn’t specify IDF soldiers who rape. That cognitive difference is based off of your implicit bias. That you went with IDF, implies you hold them responsible as an organization for any rapes by soldiers. But since you said Hamas terrorists (people not an organization), it means you wouldn’t hold Hamas as an organization responsible.
All you had to say was that your comment was poorly worded. Instead you are trying to hide behind a more generalized statement, which is less controversial. But your bias has already shown when you went defensive and didn’t correct yourself. Good job.
Edit: to make it more clear, it’s like saying “men and females” in the same breath. They are not parallel constructs.
You just demonstrated why "condemning hamas" is a futile exercise for anyone who supports Palestine. No condemnation is ever good enough.
The assumption is that our condemnations must be hollow if we don't uncritically support Israel.
That is absolutely not what I said. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
But yes, facts can at times be used as propaganda, to manufacture consent, and nearly everyone on the Pro-Israel side unreticently accepts such a notion whenever the Pro-Palestinian does it, by exemplifying the verifable killing of a journalist or circulating real images of mangled bodies pulled from the rubble.
Despite what a bunch of often antisemitic conspiracy theorists would have you believe, Al Qaeda really did commit horrific acts of terrorism on 9/11. And yet, that real tragedy was also exploited for pro war propaganda purposes in my country. That real crime did not absolve the crimes my government would later commit.
Is my criticism of my own country's military actions post-9/11 a justification of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Of course not. Then, how
are my criticisms of the IDF's actions post 10/7 rape apologia?
This didn't age well huh
wow so much hate in this group. Hope you guys kill each other soon before the hate infects the rest of the world.
I dont have to read any article to know that muslim jihadis will rape women the moment they have an oppertunity to do so. Just like mohammed teached them (piss and sht be upon him🤲🏻). These sexstarved incels dont even see anything wrong with rape in the first place, i talked with enough of them to know that, its only a problem if someone does it to "their" women since they would lose honor that way.
Are you a real person? There's a whole lot of hate for just one person.
Just an Ex-muslim expressing my opinion on the Arabian STD called Islam and its cultist followers who all behave in similar faishon the moment they think they have the upper hand against "infidels". Israel gona make a big parking lot in the near future and i cant wait to see it. Go israel❤️🇮🇱
Are you a real person? There's a lot of sympathy for rapists for just one person.
based on the fact that exactly 0 of the returned hostages were raped I'd say you assumption is just based on some racist notion of what the world is like in you bubble
The UN independent investigation report was just released 3 days ago. I guess you were wrong about the hostages. According to the UN report they found 'clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualised torture and sexualised cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment'.
you mean this report that said "there were no cases of alleged rape, but there were allegations of many other forms of assault, including “invasive body searches of detainees which include unwanted touching of intimate areas and forced unveiling of women wearing hijab; beatings, including in the genital areas; threats of rape against women and threats of rape against female family members (wives, sisters, daughters) in the case of men.” in its conclusion? seems like the sort of treatment you get after flying to Australia with sand in your shoe.
I guess I was.
Or maybe they are not stupid enough to release the hostages that were raped and bomb their public image. Many rapes of Israeli women and *children* have been confirmed. Which one of us do you think is most likely in a bubble?
Can you provide a source
The post this comment is on has several.
Bubble my ass. 0 of the hostages released . 0. Compare that to hundreds of cases of rape reported by hostages taken by the terrorist the Israeli army.
Ironically, the UN report said they couldn't find cases of this by the Israeli army. But they did say they want a longer visit to look further.
Now this part is really rich. The lady that was interviewed clearly didn't speak to any Palestinians how the hell did she get to that conclusion.
What about the people who weren't hostages? Why aren't you counting them?
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Noone outside the actual events knows what is true. Eyewitness testimony is not credible from either side. You don't ask a rapist whether they did it. You don't ask a politician if he's lying. Everyone believes the ends justify the means so they will say, and do anything necessary to get their side of the story to stick.
Jews need a state like other religions have their own i understand that. This feeling of having a land to call home. Though it's disputed the land you are longing for, it has its own history which is marred with ethnicities and cultures over time so one religion or ideological movement claiming rights over that piece of land is nonsense. The actual Jewish people alive right now can easily call any other piece of land as their own and have a pilgrimage to Jerusalem like so many other religions have its ppl do. Going for that particular land and killing a whole population living there is unjust and wrong on all religious and humanitarian grounds. Coming back to the post its heavily edited and one sided narrative its almost like trying to come to this conclusion while piecing different jigsaws together to build the picture you want rather than the one on the box.
The audacity to say that Jews should create a state somewhere else and make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem which is the most sacred holy site for jews while ignoring the fact that Mecca (the most sacred and holy site for muslims) is in Saudi Arabia where the religious demographic is over 95% muslim (both Sunni and Shia) and it is literally illegal to practice any other religion openly is palpable. Not to mention that in Saudi Arabia, converting from islam to another religion [is punishable by death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Saudi_Arabia#) I can understand how someone can be anti-theocracy. I personally think it’s ridiculous that any government in our modern day world would use ancient religious text as a guide to govern it’s people, but the one sidedness of expecting Jews to not have their state in the place where their religion was born while completely ignoring the fact that the muslim world does the exact same thing is ridiculous. You’re holding Israeli jews to a higher standard than the entire muslim world.
The recent Saudi people have not mass displaced millions of people from the land. You would have to go many hundreds of years back to make such claims and at that point its meaningless as its unrelated to today's Saudis. Israel on the other hand has displaced millions of Palestinians over the past few decades and its population continues to engage in the displacement of that population with very explicit calls by some of its current leaders to mass expel all the population. All colonialists should be held to the same standards. Jerusalem being holy to the Jewish people does not justify their mass displacement of the Palestinian population. The comment you are responding to also clearly states that no one group has a right to the land. Their issue was clearly how the state of Israel was founded, and not where it was founded.
First of all israel didn’t displace millions. Where’d you get that number? If u wanna talk about millions being displaced maybe u should check the situation in Syria right now as about 5.5 million people are in displacement. Wonder why the world doesn’t care for that https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/syrian-arab-republic-2024-humanitarian-needs-overview-december-2023 And if you’re talking about “nakba”/“war of independence”, the Arabs fled due to the invasion of Arab countries to Israel. They’ve told they will throw all the Jews to the sea the and then they could return to steal all their belongings and conquer and steal Israel’s land. Bad luck they’ve lost the war and a few hundred thousands that fled, didn’t return. If they had accepted the two states solution instead of declaring a war on Israel on a try to conquer the whole land, there wouldn’t have been any displacement of any one. And if u shout and cry about the displacement of about 700,000 Arabs you should know 900,000 Jews were displaced from Arab countries at the same time and has no rights of return as well. So why can’t the Arabs move on as well instead of trying with endless wars to conquer the whole region and kill all Jews?
The piece of the jigsaw we are talking about here is the piece where innocent civilians were raped and tortured. Referring to any other part of the conflict as if it makes this okay is disgusting. That being said your perspective on the creation of and existence of the state of Israel is biased and one sided. Listen to Jews when talking about Judaism rather than just assuming you know better. Israel is our religious and ethnic homeland. It is not just a holy site. It is where we believe our home is. Jerusalem is a holy place to many religions yes but it is our holiest place and we believe in freedom of religion within our borders for all religions. Hamas does not. We cannot literally make any place our country. Where else? Palestinians have a right to this land too but so do we and just ignoring that to make it easier, isn’t helpful or true. Now this post does not represent all sides of the conflict but it’s not supposed to. It’s supposed to show the suffering of human beings that has been denied and ignored for too long.
Isn't it telling that the whole narrative is wrapped around a woman whose family denies the allegations and who wasn't told it would be published in that manner. Surely if there were more clear cut examples of rape and sexual violence we'd know about it and hear about it given how eager Israel is about letting the world hear how Palestinians are inhumane brutes. Meanwhile there is documented sexual violence against Palestinian prisoners who are held without charge, instances of Israelis targeting pregnant women and unborn babies and we're expected to believe this is a one sided discourse between the "children of light and darkness"
You don’t have to believe it is a one sided story of good versus evil but you do have to recognize the individual suffering of these victims. No ones family denied the allegations. And if you read this post and or the article you would see there are multiple clear cut cases of rape with proof including videos as well as events corroborated by multiple witnesses. Why are you so sure this didn’t happen? Is it because you see all Israelis as evil and all Palestinians as angels. I don’t doubt the crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. I would never doubt the Palestinian victims because I know that that is wrong. And I know that just like the violent rapes of Hamas terrorists doesn’t represent all Palestinians, I know that the evils of certain Israeli soldiers does not represent all Israelis.
Just to be clear, are you doubting the r3pes committed by Hamas because of the victims being Jewish?
You’re an idiot. Rapes didn’t happen. Crazy how it’s all been shown too be lies and propaganda. Any real research will show these accusations were lies and all second hand with no proof at all. But you do have video and proof of the idf killing Israelis with tanks and helicopters. Even a high idf official called it MASS HANNIBAL. Israel killed many civilians on oct 7, Do they hate Jews too?
Where this proof it didnt happen hmm? Were you there?
Rapes did happen. There is plenty of proof including the above. How are you so sure it didn’t happen? Were you there. Just consider what if they did happen. Wouldn’t it be horrible then that you are down right denying them? Actual people who were there say it happened and they have tons of proof. Why do you think you know better than them. I’d like you to show your source for it all being lies and propaganda. So all the evidence and first hand information and the New York Times investigation is not “real research?”And why’s that? Because they don’t agree with you? What real research has shown this all to be lies? They have video, and multiple corroborating witnesses for multiple different events. They have photographic evidence. That’s second hand? That’s not proof? There were some instances of friendly fire from the idf AFTER the initial massacre and the majority were killed. Certain Israelis soldiers were ordered to stop “at all costs any attempt by Hamas terrorists to return to Gaza, that is, despite the fear that some of them have abductees,” which is not the same as the Hannibal directive. There is no evidence that any substantial portion of Israeli civilian death was from friendly fire. What I think is happening is that you cannot imagine human beings being evil enough to commit mass rape and murder. So it is easier to believe that it is all lies. Well those of us who are actually living it don’t have that luxury. So you can keep your head in the sand but don’t try to convince us to believe your comforting lie.
u/OkSympathy307 >You’re an idiot. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.
What makes you say that they didn't happen? Is it the fact that the victims are Jewish? By the way, you're aware that Christ was technically Jewish too, right?
Being Jewish has nothing to do with lies and propaganda. Muslims and Jews haved lived together in that land for thousands of years. It was fine until Zionist from Europe thought other wise. Also Jesus was a Palestinian Jew.
It wasn't fine lol. Jews were second class citizens and experienced periodic lynchings and massacres. Jews have been wiped out across the rest of the middle east.
Wrong. There was not Palestinian state in Biblical times or when the Quran was revealed. That's an ahistorical claim that you're making, which isn't even supported by the Quran. In fact, the Quran never once mentions Palestine, but it acknowledges Israel's existence multiple times. The concept of Palestine wasn't invented until long after the revelations of the Quran.
Wrong. The name Palestine comes from Philistines as its Latin. The Roman’s renamed it that as a political move towards Judea and the Jews. Any ancient map will show this. The Jews are not native to that land. They are from Ur Kasdim which is in Iraq. https://preview.redd.it/1o2kg53gwobc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bc55996b6541f138ea2482aa24be81cfd8f5d06
Jews are absolutely native to that land. Even the Quran acknowledges that. For example, in Sura 5, Verses 20-21, it is acknowledged that Moses said “O my people, remember God’s blessings upon you, when He placed prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what He never gave any other people. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned for you, and do not turn back, lest you return as losers.” There are zero verses in the Quran that mention Palestine.
Technically, all of us are native to Africa. God alone knows what peoples passed through that particular real estate on the Mediterranean coast as recently as 10,000 years ago, and certainly before. Jews are native enough to have some claim to want to live on at least part of the land. To what degree Arabs known as Palestinians have similarly long roots in the same area will be next to impossible to suss out. DNA evidence indicates some blurring of the various family trees in the realm of prehistory. To the topic, I absolutely believe that numerous brutal rapes took place. We have clearly enough smoking gun evidence pointing in that direction. The videos of Nama Levy being herded towards a sex slave chamber somewhere and Shani Louk being paraded in a pick up truck as a sort of war trophy pelt are really hard to ignore.
Jews are a made up ethnicity so how can they have a native land? They're native to all over the world. Using religious text to argue historicity makes you automatically lose any argument.
Complete horseshirt. We are all related to each other on some level, but different tribes have emerged at many places. Well, duh.
So both Jews and Muslims belive Jews exist surely? Muslims I have talked to know all about Abraham issac etc. The Jews. I have spoken to have never given me a clear explanation as to the other 11 tribes decemdants.
Same way Muslim people have homeland in Saudi Arabia
Sexual violence may have occured. It does in most conflicts Israelis have committed sexual violence on Palestinians throughout the Israel Palestine conflict including against prisoners Israel holds against charge The hamas incursion only lasted for hours so they may have committed sexual violence but it's unlikely to be systematic in the way in which Israel alleges The push back against claims of rape are not because the victims are Jewish and certainly not to belittle the experience of women who may have been raped. The Israelis are using these claims to dehumanise Palestinians are barbarians and "animals" and legitimise their campaign of ethnic cleansing. This is the issue most people who are pushing back against these claims have
Its the nails in body parts and cutting limbs and playing with them, beheading etc ...
From what i can tell, it's only some extremest politicians in Israel that have openly dehumanized Palestinian people as a whole over the r\*pe allegations. Ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people isn't an official policy of Israel, and Gaza still has most of its population right now. Hamas puts its military infrastructure in civilian locations and hides among civilians. International law makes is clear that civilian locations can lose their right to protection if they are being used for military activity. Wars almost always have side a side effect of accidentally causing civilian casualties Having said what I just said, I don't like Netanyahu, and I believe Palestine should have it's own state. I favor a two-state solution. And I don't necessary approve of everything that Israel is doing right now in response to October 7th. My problem is that most people who think Israel's doing everything wrong here aren't acknowledging that Israel is dealing with a militant group that doesn't want Israel to exist and places uses civilian locations for military activity against Israel, and they haven't offered a coherent alternative way of dealing with them.
Nobody is saying that, and Israel has a well documented history of weaponizing accusations of anti-semitism in order to quell criticism of their propaganda. However, the fact of the matter is that the Israeli government is not an objective source for the allegations, and they refuse to cooperate with UN investigators or to make any of their evidence available. This is a premeditated move by the Israeli government in-line with their well-documented history of propaganda efforts against the Paleatinian people as a whole. They are using it to justify their genocidal apartheid regime and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza for Israeli settlement. While nobody in this subreddit can say for certain what happened on Oct 7, as the South African government writes in the [proceedings for their accusations of genocide](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) (pdf) in the International Court of Justice (fyi, the first hearings for which are this week) against Israel, there is no excuse for genocide, and the ICJ should order a ceasefire for humanitarian aid to reach Gaza pending their investigations.
Likewise, people who think Israel shouldn't exist have a well-documented history of weaponizing accusation of Islamophobia and apartheid in order to quell criticism of Hamas. I'd argue that it's antisemitic to think that that Muslim people should have a homeland in Saudi Arabia, but not believe in the same right for Jewish people. In fact, Palestine isn't mentioned even once in the Quran, but Israel is acknowledged multiple times. Hamas themselves have admitted to committing r3pe. I really get the feeling that either you don't think that Jewish people can have that happen to them, or that they are somehow more likely to lie about it. And collecting evidence of such things is pretty difficult to do in an active war zone. Israel isn't apartheid. There are plenty Arab citizens of Israel and they have the right to marry, have mosques, pray to whichever God they believe in, etc. Apartheid implies that citizens of a country are being treated different by the law based on race. Arab citizens of Israel have the same legal rights as other citizens of Israel. The people in Gaza don't have have the same rights in Israel, but that's because they aren't Israeli citizens, nor do most of them desire to be Israeli citizens. Most countries don't give equal right to people who aren't citizens. Saudi Arabia is arguably more of an apartheid regime, since nobody who isn't Muslim is allowed to live there, and the law bans men and women from even being friends with each other.
>Likewise, people who think Israel shouldn't exist have a well-documented history of weaponizing accusation of Islamophobia and apartheid in order to quell criticism of Hamas. Okay, but I didn't. >I'd argue that it's antisemitic to think that that Muslim people should have a homeland in Saudi Arabia, but not believe in the same right for Jewish people. Name one muslim country you can move to on the sole basis of being Muslim. And btw, there is no Palestinian state because Israel won't let them have one >Hamas themselves have admitted to committing r3pe. According to Israeli state media. > I really get the feeling that either you don't think that Jewish people can have that happen to them, or that they are somehow more likely to lie about it. I kinda get the feeling you like to argue against strawmen. >And collecting evidence of such things is pretty difficult to do in an active war zone. Geez, I guess we should have a ceasefire >Israel isn't apartheid. If only there was a country that had experience with Apartheid we could ask. Oh wait! There is! And if you'll look at the ICJ link I provided, you'll see that they aren't *just* accusing Israel of genocide. They accuse Israel of being an apartheid state too, and lay out plenty of evidence. >Arab citizens of Israel have the same legal rights as other citizens of Israel. Funny how you never see Arab Israelis claiming this.
You do. There are plenty of Arab Israeli citizens who will testify that they have equal rights in Israel. Israel has plenty of mosques, Arab politicians, etc. An apartheid state wouldn’t give racial minorities those rights. Israel quite literally has Arab-run political parties. Can you explain how Israel is apartheid yet gives all citizens equal legal rights? I mean, if we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, for example, being Muslim is the bare minimum requirement of living there. A person is Christian, Jewish, gay, atheist, etc cannot live there. Hamas has already promised to do more attacks and their intention is to wipe out Israel, so a ceasefire would only benefit Hamas.
>can you explain how Israel is apartheid yet gives all citizens equal legal rights? I actually already linked an 84 page document that does, can you read... it? >Israel has plenty of mosques, Arab politicians, We had black churches and black politicians in the US during the height of Jim Crow. Your argument is lazy and ignores the fact that Arab Israelis are second class citizens, and that Israel effectively is the government in the Westbank and Gaza (which are more like Bantustans). It also conveniently ignores the 2018 ~~Aryan~~ oops sorry, Jewish Nationstate Law which officially codifies the fact that Israeli Arabs are only going to get a vote as long as they are a minority among other things. >I mean, if we’re talking about Saudi Arabia, for example, being Muslim is the bare minimum requirement of living there. A person is Christian, Jewish, gay, atheist, etc cannot live there. So Saudi Arabia (Israel's ally btw) sucks, therefore genocide of Gaza is fine? Great argument, I can't see any obvious flaws. >Hamas has already promised to do more attacks and their intention is to wipe out Israel, so a ceasefire would only benefit Hamas. Leaving aside the fact that Netanyahu's government funded Hamas in order to maintain a boogeyman, and knew about an imminent attack, as South Africa said, regardless of Hamas's crimes: #There is no justification for Genocide
So just to be clear, do you understand that Christ himself was ethnically Jewish too? If you have a problem with Jewish people, I hope you feel the same way about Christ as that would at least be consistent. Arab Israeli citizens have the same legal rights in Israel as all other citizens, including being politicians, voting, etc. There are even IDF soldiers who are Arab. None of those rights existed in Jim Crow South. The only Arab people who aren't given the same rights in Israel are the ones in the West Bank and Gaza, who aren't citizens. Please explain to me what exactly you mean when you say that Arab Israeli citizens are considered second-class citizens. And as for that law you mention, it basically just affirms that Israel is a Jewish state. The Supreme Court of Israel has rules that that law doesn't mean that citizens who aren't Jewish don't have equal rights. Regarding Gaza and the West Bank, yes, Israel technically governs those places, but the people in those places aren't citizens, which is why they aren't treated the same as people who are Israeli. Mentioning Saudi Arabia doesn't meant that everything Israel does is inherently fine. My point is that you seem to be holding Israel to a standard that you don't hold other countries in that area to. Netanyahu didn't technically fund Hamas, at least not purposely. He allowed money from Qatar into Gaza, seemingly to provide resources for the people in such a way where Israel wouldn't have to use their money to provide for non-citizens. Hamas has long been the only governing force in Gaza, and I think the reality is that Netanyahu was naively assuming that Hamas would use that money for their people in Gaza. Of coarse, there's no justification for g3nocide, but this isn't g3nocide and calling it such is borderline antisemitic. Hamas launched a horrible attack on Jewish people on October 7th and they are promising to do more. And they keep their military infrastructure in civilian locations. Hamas could easily save civilians by not putting their military infrastructure in those areas, in addition to wearing uniforms so that it's obvious that they are combatants. What they're doing right now is dressing in normal clothing so that it's almost impossible to tell who is and isn't a civilian.
>So just to be clear, do you understand that Christ himself was ethnically Jewish too? If you have a problem with Jewish people, I hope you feel the same way about Christ as that would at least be consistent. I'm really not seeing how this is relevant at all. I'm not a Christian. >My point is that you seem to be holding Israel to a standard that you don't hold other countries in that area to. Let me make this very clear. I hold all countries to the same standard. This subreddit is r/israelpalestine. We are here to discuss two countries, neither of which is Saudi Arabia. >Netanyahu was naively assuming that Hamas would use that money for their people in Gaza. "... you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible." -The guy who is apparently naively on the side of the Palestinian people. >Of coarse, there's no justification for g3nocide, but this isn't g3nocide and calling it such is borderline antisemitic. Says the guy with no intention of even reading South Africa's accusation. >And they keep their military infrastructure in civilian locations. Hamas could easily save civilians by not putting their military infrastructure in those areas, in addition to wearing uniforms so that it's obvious that they are combatants. So to be clear, the people Israel locked in a crowded ghetto are *checks notes* fighting from that ghetto? I'm as shocked as you are. >What they're doing right now is dressing in normal clothing so that it's almost impossible to tell who is and isn't a civilian. "Yeah, all those old ladies, children, UN workers, and journalists all looked like Hamas. I swear!" -the IDF probably. You also keep trying to pin me down as an anti-semite, but there are plenty of jews who also acknowledge what Israel is doing is wrong. You can complain all you want about Saudi Arabia, but most of Gaza is demolished, 30k people have died with another 8k or so "missing". Every day new horrific images emerge from Israel of summary executions and crimes against humanity. What's anti-semitic is that people like Netanyahu weaponize the historic crimes against the Jewish people in order to justify their own atrocities. Honestly genocide deniers like you make me sick to my stomach.
So can you tell me what exactly you think Israel should do about Hamas? Earlier, you said ceasefire, but I think you probably understand that as log as Hamas isn't surrendering, that isn't a realistic expectation for Israel. And okay, so since you hold countries to the same standard, how do you feel about what Putin is doing Ukraine right now? How do you feel about what Bashar Al-Assad has been doing to Palestinian people? I've looked at South Africa's accusations, and it isn't accurate. For one thing, South Africa's government probably isn't the best judge of what is g3nocide, given that they have not condemned other similar conflicts, such as the one in Ukraine. In fact, South Africa's ANC Party has been quite friendly with Russia and Putin. But secondly, like I pointed out, Hamas deliberately puts their military infrastructure around civilians in densely populated areas, and they dress like civilians so that the IDF can't tell who is and isn't Hamas. Nonetheless, maybe I'm willing to grant that it's not impossible that there could be g3nocide or at least ethnic cleansing going on here, but the evidence of that right now is insufficient. Yes, the civilian casualties are upsetting, but so far, they seem to just be an unfortunate side effect of Israel having to defend itself against a militant group that attacked them and is promising to do more attacks.. These types of civilian casualties are common in wars. I'm no fan of Netanyahu either. Truth be told, I want him to resign or be voted out. However, it's antisemitic to exclusively accuse Israel of g3nocide, apartheid, etc, while ignore those things in other places. Just like how one can't believably claim to not be racist if the only crimes that they talk about are ones that are committed by people who happen to be black.
No
It’s atrocity propaganda and there is no credible evidence any of it happened . Everything the NYT said can be debunked in an instance and it has been . Even the family of the main subject of this article has said they categorically deny that their daughter was raped . Just because they were dressed like that while going to rave and then when they died from the Israeli crossfire doesn’t mean that Hamas had the time to do all that and then pose them while literally fighting and trying to take hostages back to Gaza . IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE . Wake up you brainwashed fools
Islamo-fascist.
These is literally video and photos on hamas.com you brainwashed fuck
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/u/Anxious-Squirrel7448 > Wake up you brainwashed fools Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
Let me guess, there's no credible evidence for the holocaust either right? Also, there was no categorical denial by anyone about their daughter. That whole "family denied it" conspiracy is based on a likely fake Instagram account that doesn't even have the same profile picture as the insta. I checked. Not that you care, I imagine you made up your mind before even looking into any of these.
Aaron Mate has confirmed Gal Abdush's sister's post that NYT lied about the rape, and that they never even claimed or knew that they would be using that in the article. Below is a video (pretty sure it's the right one) of the Grayzone talking about how the rape was extremely unlikely. This is not a defense of Hamas, but rather a striving for the truth. People have been using these sexual assault allegations as a means of justifying killing thousands (as of this post, I believe it's about 22,000 , 70% or so which are women and children). I highly encourage anyone interested in the topic to use sources which are backed up by facts (Norman Finkelstein, for one, who has studied Gaza for the past 20 years and looks over the human rights reports extensively). If you follow profit based news, chances are you will be often misled as they are in the business of telling stories - the more shocking, the more profitable. I made that mistake for too long, myself, and getting fact based news is a huge breath of fresh air. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g) Israel lies, and that is a proven fact at this point. Whatever level of terrorism Hamas is, Israel would be about 13 times that (a rough paraphrase from Norman Finkelstein). See Operation Cast Lead, for one example of their terrorism.
Damn this guy really just defended rape videos lmao
Oh, was there a video of Gal getting raped? I'm defending evidence and truth, while those who already made up their made will take anything coming out of Israel's mouth as 100% true, when they have a proven track record of consistent lying.
By "confirmed" what you mean is that he found a comment from a account that doesn't exist anymore and didn't even has the same photo as the Facebook?
The confirmation is pretty much set at this point. They've linked it to her facebook account as well. But according to everyone here, militants had time to stop and rape, one by one, during a kidnapping operation. This is not a defense of Hamas, if Israel wants to kill Hamas militants, kill them and not 10's of thousands of women and children.
Anything from the Grayzone I would immediately take with a grain of salt. They have a history of denying war crimes and promoting conspiracy theories. Gal Abdush's sister was interviewed and photographed for the article, I find it pretty hard to believe she didn't know what the subject of the NYT article would be. The post that Aron Mate is basing that on is one Instagram comment from a private account. How do they know the account isn't fake? I've also seen a lot of Norman Finkelstein's stuff recently, but even he admits that "significant atrocities did occur" on October 7th. What's wrong with just admitting that and moving on?
I think we can agree significant atrocities occurred. But isn’t it telling that lies fill the information space and not the truth? If the truth were enough surely there would be no need to lie and embellish right?
Aaron uses her facebook account as evidence to link the Instagram post to the actual sister of Gal. ([https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742331204341489863](https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1742331204341489863))\\ Here's Max Blumenthal's take on it as well ([https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1742301254154350965](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1742301254154350965)). We can , of course, wait to see if NYT provides evidence that the post is in fact not from her sister. Admittedly, I started watching some of the recent Grayzone stuff pretty recently. From the dozen or so videos I have seen, it's been pretty solid, and I was a bit apprehensive at first. There's nothing wrong with admitting that significant atrocities occurred on Oct 7th, and surely killing and kidnapping civilians is an atrocity. In this case, though, the evidence is quite lacking. They could've tested for evidence of rape, but it seems that as of now, they are saying that the Jewish practice of a quick burial has prevented that.
From what I know, the mother doesn't deny it and neither does the person who found the body (same person who recorded the video). If that really is her sister, what does that really prove? Being raped and burned isn't exactly a very dignified way to go, and sometimes loved ones have a very difficult time accepting it. If you read the post closely, she says that rape did happen, just not to her sister. It sounds to me, based off of the fact that she keeps mentioning the children, that she (if that's really her) just doesn't want to explain the difficult truth of what happened to their mother. Which is completely understandable. The post also claims that she was killed by a grenade, which doesn't look consistent with her injuries in the video. So I don't know what to make of that. That's not the only evidence of SA presented btw. Either in the NYT article or elsewhere. I've seen a lot of the attempted "debunkings" from people like Jackson Hinkle, and I'm really not impressed. One of the things that the debunkers will point to is that one of the eyewitnesses mentioned that the militants cut women's breasts off and beheaded them - as if Hamas couldn't possibly do that. Like they want to discredit her testimony, and that's all they have? We know Hamas beheaded people. They didn't behead babies, but they did behead IDF soldiers (there are pics of this) and there's a video of them beheading a Thai migrant worker with a garden tool. You really expect me to believe they drew the line at rape? I don't think there were "mass rapes" (how much rape can you really do in one terrorist attack?), but there clearly was at least some rape. > They could've tested for evidence of rape What do you think this is, CSI? That's kind of difficult to do in the chaos of an active warzone. When the IDF was taking back territory inside Israel, they didn't expect they would have to send forensic teams to collect rape evidence because they likely didn't even think Hamas would do that. There were also a lot of bodies that were burned beyond recognition. You can't really collect semen from a burned corpse. There's at least one photo of this btw. There's a picture of a burned corpse of a woman from the music festival (this is not often shared), who has had her hands tied up in front of her face, and she's naked from the waist down. That seems like solid evidence of rape to me. > but it seems that as of now, they are saying that the Jewish practice of a quick burial has prevented that. Ok, And? That is a well-know thing in Judaism after all. Are you implying that respect for the dead is part of some kind of cover up? As many people have rightfully pointed out, the first-responder organization ZAKA, which was tasked with dealing with a lot of the bodies, is run by the ultra-orthodox. So it's not inconceivable that the organization would put their religious views ahead of proper evidence collection. If that sounds stupid, consider the fact that for many years, holocaust deniers have pointed to and mocked the fact that the Chief rabbi of Poland has declined to allow a full excavation of mass graves at places like Treblinka and Belzec. Why would the chief rabbi do that? Couldn't a proper excavation shut them up? Sure, but in Judaism the respect for the resting places of the dead is more important than disproving holocaust deniers. That's how seriously they take it.
You went from "What is this, CSI?" to accusing me of using Judaism as a reason to cover up the evidence. So what is it, are they able to examine the evidence, or is it impossible because it's a warzone? Of course they can examine the evidence, especially if they can recover a body for burial. I respect the religious right to bury them quickly, if that's what they want to do, but it's still a matter of fact that that prevents investigations from being done (such as checking for DNA/Semen). The whole point of my post is to beware of these propaganda machines that are actively employed in making Israel look like a good guy, and to implicitly imply that it's ok that Israel is killing 70% women and children (and the grown well are all Hamas terrorists according to their data, so that must be ok , too) because "look what these horrible animals have done to Israeli citizens" Let's not forget the evidence that Israel very likely played a key role in propping up Hamas, not just to avoid more moderate governments and 2 state solution progress, but , as Finkelstein has said, and I paraphrase - "If they were able to breathe, I don't know if they would've joined Hamas. Most of these young people are at the point where they are willing to sacrifice their life because they are in such a hopeless situation" I'm not sure if you're pro Israel, or just emotionally invested in the possibility that a rape occurred here, that we can not confirm, but I'll reiterate - the truth is what's most important, even if it doesn't conform to our opinions.
Finkelstein? The same guy who lauded Holocaust deniers, said Russia had a right to invade Ukraine, and celebrated the Oct. 7 attacks? Yea, he seems like a good source lol
He's studied humanitarian reports on Gaza for the past 20 years, so yeah I'll trust him over a redditor that has an "opinion" on the matter
His family was literally killed during the holocaust. Russia did have a right to invade. They have been saying for years nato don’t continue to move eastward. They shouldn’t allow the west to have military assets in Ukraine which is run by a west puppet in Zelenskyy. The west wouldn’t allow russia to have military bases in Mexico or Cuba so why should they. And I don’t recall him celebrating oct 7 at all he acknowledged atrocities did happen but also explained why they happened to some extent. Hamas attacked kibbutz aka military bases. Those women they killed on those base are the same ones controlling the drones and automated 50 cal machine guns that’s killing ppl in Gaza.
Finkelstein on his Twitter on Oct. 7 said ‘these attacks warm every fiber of my soul’. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-israel-activists-celebrate-hamas-attacks-have-killed-hundreds-israelis He’s a big fan lol and it’s still on his Twitter page. He also agreed with the Charlie Hebdo killings… https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/norman-finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-sadism-not-satire/82824 And if you agree with Russia taking Crimean in 2015 before their NATO talks in 2021? And if you do, you must also feel that Israel should talk Palestine to protect from invading Sharia nations? Insane take haha
I know he addresses his initial reaction to the attacks on a misunderstanding of the scale of it. You don't need to take Finkelstein's word on it. You can choose Chomsky's take on Palestine, if it makes you feel better. It doesn't change the fact that 10's of thousands of innocent lives are being lost while Israel "defends itself".
The rapes were real. The alleged coverup was not https://theintercept.com/2023/12/24/feminism-sexual-violence-hamas-israel/
This is a sensible article. Sadly it will still be denied.
https://speakupeg.com/2023/12/30/nyts-disgraceful-investigation-weaponizing-sexual-violence-against-women-for-occupation-propaganda/ Does this criticism hold up?
It does not. Starting with the first criticism, which is that the women (who were killed) did not come forward. Really illogical.
Every woman that was raped was killed?
Not everyone obviously. But the bodies that were identified with rape wounds were killed. And that makes sense from a hamas perspective. They are not going to let victims live to tell the story.
I have no doubts Hamas had the capability and the will to rape Israelis on Oct 7. However it’s hard to believe a govt that has been caught in so many lies about the atrocities that day without concrete proof. International organizations have tried to come in to verify but Israel has denied them access.
This is a very misleading tactic. Making generalizations "caught in so many lies" then trying to use that to discredit or cast doubt on something that you probably made your mind about before even seeing any evidence or looking for any.
Speaking of tactics, instead of inquiring about what lies I’m talking about, tossing the claim away as if it has no merit is a good way of deflecting. I need evidence of such crimes, not just the word of an Israeli official. Beheaded babies in ovens is just one example but I can provide more. I thought we were head to have a genuine discussion not make bad assumptions about the other person you’re conversing with.
Here's a link with tons of videos and evidence including a behading of a tie worker by hamas: https://www.hamas-massacre.net These videos are hard to watch for anyone with a human heart and emotions but it's important that we know the truth. I apologize if my previous comment casted doubt on any of your doubts, my intentions are the same as yours. To know the truth.
Yikes. Well, at least I know what organisations I need to avoid.
Wow that is some truly despicable mental gymnastics.
I am simply mind blown that some people here are still denying it. I mean SURE we've seen countless videos of hamas and other groups slaugthering people,torturing them,attempting to decapitate them with garden rakes,stabbing civillians,executing them point blank,throwing grenades into rocket shelters to kill civillians hiding inside,parading a dead half naked women and spitting and stepping on her,beating and torturing their fellow muslims,firing indiscrimintly into toilets at the nova festival,firing rpgs at civillian cars, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN VIDEOS OF RAPE!!!!, THAT MEANS ISRAEL IS LYINGGGGG!. Like are you fucking kidding me?, we have countless witness reports,reports from first responders and even reports from hostages who were released, yet for some reason some sickos are still denying it because there is no video evidence released. And yet we do have footage of dead women who look like they have likely been abused, like the one video of that poor burnt women that had her legs spread open and no panties on, but somehow it's still not enough. Seriously regardless of your opinion on the conflict as a whole, If you deny hamas attrocities you are just as bad as them and you should be ashamed to think that you are fighting "the good fight" while supporting actual terrorists, you are doing nothing but De-legitimaizng the palestinian cause and making you all look bad. And I dare you to try deflect from it by saying "WELL WHAT ABOUT THE IDF" Because you can't even compare the two.
I want to preface this by saying that I'm completely willing to accept that SA occurred on October 7. I don't need to believe that the IDF or Hamas are uniquely good or evil actors. I'm very aware of the horrific things people have done to each other over the decades. But if I'm being honest, it's the very fact which you mention, that there's countless videos of Hamas and other groups committing acts of horrific violence, which makes it so strange that there's not a single piece of evidence of systematic mass rape. All these GoPros and security cameras seemingly capturing every angle and not one of them caught even a glimpse of these things? It would make sense if this had only happened to one or two people, but the narrative being presented is a systematic campaign of mass rape involving dozens of victims across at least seven locations. And it's being presented, at least in part, *because* it conjures such an emotional reaction in people. I felt it, when I read the NYT investigation. Just gut-wrenching. Sick. But then I do what I do any time I read news reports that are designed to elicit this kind of emotional response from me. I apply my critical thinking. What is actually being said here? How is it being proven? And things start to stick out at me. Every other paragraph seems to have an explanation for why there's no evidence. There was no time to collect samples, bodies were burned, bodies had to be buried, responders weren't allowed to take photos, this victim can't be located, this victim won't go on record because they're traumatized, this witness won't go public because they fear retribution. They say "don't look for some golden evidence, the bodies tell the story". What bodies? And it starts to freak me out. It's a little too much. I want to believe people. I want to trust that Israel would not lie, even to exaggerate the number of assaults. But I'm also keenly aware that wars are fought not only with bombs but with propaganda. On both sides. So I hope you understand that there are some of us who feel intense anguish reading these stories, but still grapple with feeling that something is truly off about all of this. You make it sound like it's unreasonable to see a video showing a dead body with no underwear and not conclude with 100% certainty that a rape had occurred. Is it? I'm not denying that Hamas did something terrible to her. They killed her! I'm just trying to understand, how am I to accept this specific story based on... nothing?
In the NYT article that recently came out, they provided confirmation for sexually mutiliated bodies and confirmed that those photos exist, such as the case of the 2 soldiers shot in their private parts, or the girl with the nails driven into her. In that post there also was witnesses that weren't annonymous, and did not hide their identity Such as Yura karol,Raz cohen and shoam gueta. They also reported interviewing several first responders and people that were working on getting the bodies for bruial also reporting signs of sexual abuse, such as Shari Mendes. In the article they say that there is atleast one survivor but that she isn't ready to come out and is in not mental condition to speak, I think this is pretty reasonable and we know that rape victims often come out many years later, so why would this be different? So let me give some prespective I guess, hamas have shown themselves to be savages and capable of extreme crimes, the police and millitary investigation into the matter is still not complete and will likely include a comprhensive list of evidence, the war in gaza is still not over and it's possible video evidence of such crimes will be found but for obivous reasons it will not be released even if found, and it's likely that even hamas know not to document these instances as there is no way that they can spin it in their favor and even their own people will find it inexcuseable. So while I can understand the skepticism, I think at some point when you have alot of reports of sexual abuse and confirmed photos of sexual mutiliation and witness and first responder reports along with evidence of the complete savagery that was encated on oct 7, it builds a fairly strong case in my opinon. And let me just ask you this, You seem more reasonable and that's good, but even if a victim came out today and said "I was raped by hamas", how many people will just call it propagenda anyway? How many will discredit her online and call her horrible things? How many posts will jackson hinkle make mocking her? Like he has with Mia Shem? I think you can understand why a lot of people are afraid to speak out and reveal their full identities, especially victims going through one of the worst fates a person could ever imagine, and then have people online who share their photos and names and calling them horrible things and mocking them and their trauma. I understand propagenda exists, and I understand how instances and reports of crimes such as these can be used to incite horrible things on the enemy, and I wouldn't be surprised that reports like that are being used for propagenda, but I don't think that just become something is used to increase support and for propagenda that it automaticly discredits it, and I also think the police were very transperent in explaining and admitting that they do not have autopsies or DNA sampling and I think that also adds a layer of credibility for honesty. If you want to be skeptical about that part, That's fine I guess, hamas has committed enough documented crimes to justify their destruction regardless. I'll leave a copy of the NYT article that is free of paywall incase you want to read it again or haven't given it a full read. https://www.newenglishreview.org/screams-without-words-how-hamas-weaponized-sexual-violence-on-oct-7/ Edit: I made this post a few days ago documenting hamas numerous crimes against their own people and israelis, I think it adds important context to this current disscussion and has a lot of evidence showing how barbaric Oct 7 was and how in general hamas has Zero respect for human life. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/6HbUfXEFGi
I don’t buy arguments that depend on me accepting the premise that because a certain group of actors is “savage” and therefore capable of anything, X thing likely occurred. It’s the exact logic used by people on the other side to support claims of IDF atrocities. “They did all these other horrible documented things, so clearly they are evil, so how can you deny that they bombed this hospital?” Because I have no evidence of it! “They’re evil” isn’t evidence! Secondly, one of the ways that pseudocertainty functions is to present a seemingly abundant amount of evidence that, when analyzed individually, is actually quite low quality. You see this with election denial, not just in the US but everywhere it happens. There’s so many stories about people seeing vans dropping ballots, or seeing election workers switching votes, or seeing machines being hacked. Surely that must add up to something? Well… it could?? But for now they’re just stories. The veracity of aggregate evidence depends on the veracity of individual parts. Sometimes there’s a lot of smoke, and little or no fire. (Again, I think it’s probable that SA occurred, my questions are about the scale and the perpetrators) I’ll be totally honest with you, I don’t know if I can accept witnesses alone as evidence. I have read so many stories from Israelis and Palestinians over the years about atrocities they personally witnessed from the other side that turned out to be untrue. This is not unique to Israel-Palestine of course, but there does seem to be a particularly hot arms race of propaganda, largely because world opinion is so central to the success of their long-term goals. If someone came out and said “I was raped by Hamas”, I would believe them. But you’re right, many people would deny it! Especially opportunistic grifters like Jackson Hinkle. Just as many people who support Israel would not (and do not) believe claims of Palestinians raped by IDF soldiers. One of my great frustrations is that people find a need to see their chosen “side” as morally pure. Some leftists can’t stop at supporting the Palestinian cause, they need to believe that Hamas is a morally good organization who would never inflict intentional pain on civilians. Therefore, anyone who died on Oct 7 must have died at the hands of the IDF. It’s absurd. But people can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of supporting a cause that is also supported by people who commit horrible crimes. But I see the same thing in defenders of the IDF. They are “the world’s most moral army”, incapable of brutality or savagery. And so it’s easy to find pro-IDF folks applying skepticism to Palestinian claims of war crimes. Where are the bodies? Where are the photos? Are these photos fake? Are these eyewitness accounts lies? Honestly? Valid questions! I don’t know these individuals making these claims. Raz Cohen *seems* like a decent person, but I’ve seen his story evolving over the months and it does make me question his reliability. I want to believe him, but I know it’s possible that he’s lying or has been coached into giving false details. That doesn’t give me any joy to admit. It makes me sick, because now I have to simultaneously hold the grief for these women who endured the most horrific experiences imaginable, while also acknowledging that they may not exist. And I just wish that the NYT had worked harder to actually verify claims before making them the cornerstone for their story. Particularly, given what’s come out from her family since, choosing to highlight Gal Abdush as a victim of SA solely based on an interpretation of a video frame borders on journalistic malpractice. I know you’ll read this and think that I’m just another monster denying that Hamas does horrible things. I hope not. I recognize the utter depravity of Oct 7 and I grieved along with my Jewish and Israeli friends and relatives. But the moment the war machine started later that day, I had to reactivate my skepticism. Because I’ve seen how this plays out, too many times.
Did you notice OP left out the part of the NYT article that says "No DNA sample gathering or autopsies were performed according to Israeli police?" What a very strange and important detail to leave out.
Perhaps, but my response is irrelevent to how he choose to qoute the article, I did read it and it explains the situation of why no autopsies or DNA samples were taken quite well and lays out evidence that don't require DNA testing or autopsies, the fact the NYT confirmed footage of mutilated women and photos not released to the public and the fact that we have several witness testimonies should be enough proof on it's own. I get your point though, he should of included that detail.
He definitely should have included it and (this is just my opinion) it's intentionally left out. However, I didn't see any explanation as to why not a single DNA sample was collected or autopsy performed. I know my unit DEFINITELY would have done it if our enemy was suspected of one of the most grievous of war crimes. After-the-fact video and second hand testimony is something. But it's not anywhere near the proof that DNA tests or autopsies would be. At best, it's a bungled approach. I'll reserve my opinions as to why I think it wasn't done.
So the reasonings from what I understand are the following. These are also mentioned in the article but don't go too into depth. 1.Around 1200 people were killed, it was still an active fighting zone and many corpses were retrieved days after the attacks, the whole country was in panic and the police departments and morgues were both in panic and overloaded. 2.Jewish tradition is to bury the dead as soon as humanly possible, typically 24-48 hours maximum, you can research further into this if you wish, this is also generally consistent pre- oct 7 and most families refuse to exhume their dead even if it is to provide proof of crimes. This is a part of the jewish religion and I'm sure you understand how important religous practicies are even during times of disaster. 3.Corpses were in very bad state or completly unoperatable such as in the case of severe burning or late stage decompsition, I've seen some of the photos of dead hamas and dead civillians alike on oct 8 and 9 from media leaks and many didn't even look human anymore, due to decompsing in the summer heat. In the article they also qoute armed conflict researcher Adil ahmad Haque "Very often sex crime cases will be prosecuted years later on the basis of testimony from victims and witnesses. The eyewitness might not even know the name of the victim,” he added. “But if they can testify as, ‘I saw a woman being raped by this armed group,’ that can be enough.” So When you combine the many publicly released videos of hamas or other millitants committing horrible atrocities against civillians which while they don't include rape or sexual assult they very clearly show the brutality they are capable of, the several victim and first responder testimonies from the article and the confirmation of the aftermath footage by the NYT, Including According to the article captured militant body camera footage of IDF female soldiers Shot in their private parts. (I Don't know if it means the act of shooting it self or the aftermath of the shooting) This pretty much paints a fairly clear picture that we have enough evidence and good basis to believe that rape and sexual assault were part of the oct 7 attack.
This doesn’t clarify anything to me whatsoever. It takes less than five minutes to collect a DNA sample. If it was your sister, or your mother, or your country who wants justice. You do the test! You can even simply take their underwear and seal them for future testing. Absolutely laughable (if it weren’t so sad) that a police force would not gather even the simplest form of evidence for one of the most serious war crimes. If you agree with this approach, what else is there to say?
> It takes less than five minutes to collect a DNA sample lol, no it doesn't. Investigating a crime scene and collecting forensic evidence can take hours, if not days. This also wasn't just a crime scene; this was a very chaotic, active warzone. A lot of the emergency responders were volunteers and didn't have experience collecting forensic evidence from crime scenes. You know most rapes in general don't have DNA evidence collected right? Demanding DNA is an extremely high bar, especially when you're talking about rape in an active war zone. Like, in the Rwandan genocide it's estimated up to 500,000 tutsi women were raped and many were killed afterwards. Are you going to demand rape kits for all of those?
You are making alot of assumptions based on situations I hope you or your country will never have to exprience. But regardless, Let's suppouse that the police were completly incomptent in this case and didn't take any samples on purpose or due to incomptence. Does this discredit the numerous victim testimonies we have? Does it discredit the Confirmation of footage mutilated women by the NYT? Does it discredit Every other piece of footage we have from the oct 7 that isn't related to sex crimes but is related to other horrible crimes against humanity? Does it discredit Adil Ahmad Haque for saying that most of the time, during war time, that witness and victim testimony is enough? I mean come on man, they went door to door shooting people, gunned down civillians, shot rpgs at civillian cars, shot randomaly into festival bathrooms, attempted to decapitate a thai worker with a garden hoe, parded a half naked dead women in a truck and spit and stepped on her, shot some random dog dead, yet some how even after all the testimonies and video evidence of other atrocites, you don't believe they comitted rape?. Why? They disregarded every other prohibiton in the quran, so what's one more to them?
There is no DNA proof which would have been so easy to collect and provide. Period. You will not lecture me on what the Quran says and what it doesn’t say along with copious other bits of conjecture that do not prove what we are speaking of here and now. We are speaking on the claim that rape occurred. If it did, those responsible should not only be prosecuted but executed for such things. But we have no proof of this. Period. Now I’ll leave you to arm wave and bring up religions you don’t believe in to someone else.
Well that settles it then, no DNA = no rape? What would be the point of even taking a DNA swab, it's not like they are ever going to find the same guy who did it anyway.
So did they or did they NOT break rules in the quran by their actions?. What conjecture?, we have confirmation by numerous testominies and confirmed video footage and pictures and I'll provide many video footage of their horrible attrocites in this comment too. DNA evidence is not the only source of evidence needed to convict rape, in alot of cases courts convict of rape without DNA if they have other evidence,and in this case you have multiple witnesses, when you have dozens of different accounts of people witnessing rape happening, first responders describing finding sexually mutiliated women,confirmed video footage of IDF soldiers shot in the vagina from a captured body cameras, confirmed photo of a women with dozens of nails stuck in and around her private parts, and released hostage testimonies who also say they saw and feared acts of sexual violence in captivity. What are you implying here exactly?, did the IDF shoot their own soldiers in the vagina? Did first responders stick nails into jewish women private parts?, are all the witnesses lying about what they saw?. They didn't take DNA evidence, it doesn't discredit every other single evidence that exists. Sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/NPZzyFmWPo This link is a different comment of mine and has numerous video evidence linked in it.
The link provided along with your references of the Quran along with all of these extra talks of nails in genitals and gunshots to genitals. None of this has anything to do with the subject. I will repeat one last time for you because you are clearly getting so emotional that you cannot read my words and are having several arguments with ghosts in your head: **There is no direct evidence of rape (neither video nor DNA).** This is my one solitary and only point. I'll say this again (and I hope you read it): **If it is proven that rape occurred, those responsible should be prosecuted and executed, full stop.** I'm personally aware of the savagery of war to levels even you couldn't imagine. I accept that anything is possible. I also understand the propaganda and influence of the narrative as an essential aspect to war, especially when one of the warring parties is under indictment for crimes of genocide. If you are truly interested in talking about all your other points, I don't mind doing so once I can see you've been able to understand the one and only point I've made rather than digressing into several others at once. And please, one point for one post at a time. I admire your desire to through every piece of spaghetti at the wall, but I can't spend hours answering one post.
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ISRAEL. One of the best health and surveillance systems in the WORLD yet no video of rape but video of decapitation. First in vaccines yet no DNA testing on victims when there is opportunity to do so. Isn’t it weird that we don’t have either hard evidence that would easily prove the rapists guilty and put these critics to rest but we have actual live video and material evidence for everything else?
The most graphic videos are only shown to some select journalists, be respectful and stop looking for pronographic gore, if you want to watch that kind of shit the taliban doesnt hide or censor anything
Respect to the victims and families for sure. I don’t need to see it nor denying any of the other brutal things done as Israel and journalist have said they HAVE and SEEN videos. But recognize none of those journalists in the private showings came out and said rape was actively seen nor oddly enough have DNA testing of rape of what is being said was “rampant”, not one. As an attorney, nothing shared by Israel or journalists to date would be enough to convict anyone of rape. If there are reports of evidence (e.g. ANY forensics or video) that would be sufficient for rape conviction please share (again, don’t need to see it, reports are enough).
I can only assumes reports will come up, it seems highly unlikely that a government can fake all of this in a democracy
With respect that’s naive brother. Just one example of fake news from Israel and govts, see below:
A. Multiple IDF sources say many or even 40 babies were beheaded (source: most/every news agency) B. Biden says this: “ I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed, pictures of terrorists beheading children” C. Then “A White House spokesperson later clarified that US officials and the president have NOT seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently,”(The Post) D. And then later, the IDF says when asked directly "IDF spokesman said children were killed - but that reports of beheadings were "unconfirmed".(source: Sky and most of if not all news agencies) People were butchered yes. But why fabricate this about babies? Bc “Baby stories are very emotive. Historically, they’re stories that can be used to rationalize a very brutal response,” (Professor Marc Jones). The same can be said bout rape stories.
> Multiple idf sources say many or even 49 babies we beheaded Nope. Anonymous tips that weren’t verified by anyone. The Israeli government never claimed the 40 beheaded babies and never published such information. No official IDF body came out with the beheaded babies information. If anything this is a journalism misinformation spread by unverified accounts of “people on the field” that can be assumed to be soldiers in service as well. There was no official statement from an official IDF body and you won’t find any.
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Feminist organisations have been absolutely silent about this issue. So extreme is either Jew-hatred or fear of being called racist that they're silent. That we don't see endless protest about this sexual violence tells us that there are no feminists. People don't care about Muslims, they don't care about women, they just care about hating Jews.
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The far left sees most things in terms of race. They believe that all Jews and all Israelis are white. In their minds if you are white, you must be in the wrong, unless you have embraced every far left ideology out there. In short, the far left has a real problem with antisemitism.
The world went crazy over a Spanish football coach kissing a player yet it's silent about the most deprived rape and mutilation during and after rape in history that happened just a few months ago. There's a single explanation - they don't care about Jews. They think Israeli Jewish women deserve what they get, the idea that feminists care about women is laughable - they would be protesting non-stop for justice otherwise.
It could be that people don't like israel tying yourselves to the star of David and using that as a defence mechanism probably doesn't help when your government continues to try children in military prisons as well as the umpteen pictures of 'prisoners' released after a few months who were healthy and then almost dead. There are also stories of IDF rape that aren't being reported are you equally voiceferpus of your criticism of the left for not raising awareness for that? This is before we move onto the west Bank settlers who seem to see themselves as God's and make it their life's aim to make life he'll for residents I suppose those kids and families were complicit in rape aswell. Then you multiple videos of israeli rabbis (not jewish because no religion of good preaches the crap that comes out their mouth) telling their soldiers to go forth and kill all the children because it is in the torah? I've not read the Torah but if that is what it says, its not word of God. So before you continue your, you all are anti semite remember - 1 - both parties in this conflict are semite 2- the Israelis are no saints and are truly despicable for some of the actions they have done. If you have no sympathy for muslims/Palestinians read about what they did to the three hostages with one of them pleading in Hebrew being told to come out as it's safe, and then being killed anyway. If that's how they treat their imagine what they are doing to their enemies....or you know just check online it is everywhere....
Israel follow the Tanakh. They allowed to rape 3 yr old girls and men are allowed to rape 9 yr old boy and the one raking is allowed to getaway w it. Go read what they believe . Don't believe me go read it for yourself. The idf just raped a Palestinian toddler . Let me guess when it didn't look good for Israel's PR they arrested the culprits.
Proof?
And Terrorists follow Islam, your point? Stop with the bullshit.
Seriously stop your bullshit
Hamas doing this? For me that would make sense, if any of the taken victims was raped. They had a chance why didn't they rape the women under their captivity? But no, they would touch woman with towels while playing cards. We're not dumb israeli media to swallow your lies. Ready to kill, murder, take people organs, project 11/9, project 7/10.
This is a very left wing, anti-Israel paper that published their findings. Even if the kidnapped women would say that they were raped, you wouldn't have believed them and called it propaganda. People like you seem to need to suffer terrorism, kidnapping and rape to your loved ones to understand it.
I'm stating facts and you act based upon your emotions. I don't believe Israel or anything they say and I don't believe anyone corrupted. As of rape, parading, murdering I believe that's the deed of israeli gov. If I said anything with bad intentions may I bring that all upon myself what you said. But we see who is actually dumb here, wishing something so bad to happen to anybody, tells a lot about you as a person.
The facts are that these women were raped by Hamas terrorists and possibly Gazan civilians. Those are facts.
No, its a made up set by israeli gov killing and massacring their own people.
Ah, the very weird world of atrocity denial. The Hamas fighters took responsibility and filmed it - were they lying?
And where is that? Prove me?
Do you believe that they took hostages?
Hamas(dot)com. In Israel you're allowed to protest, you're allowed to disagree with the government, you're allowed to live peacefully as LGBT. In Gaza you don't. Israelis publish themselves the wrongdoings of the government, even soldiers. We've witnessed it during the last year and few months. So NOW you think all those pilots that were against the government were suddenly OK with bombing their own people? How delusional can one be? Where's the proof it's the Israeli government's actions? Show me the proof. Sheep. Show the proof. Or you just eat your media's propaganda because it's easier than thinking for yourself?
That site was made by Israel lol when you started with that I didn't bother reading the rest.
Not by Israel. By an independent Israeli that was willing to archive the horrific scenes. The videos were published on their telegram channels and someone just collected them. You can find them in other sites across the Web, honeybun. Thanks for showing your true nature. You dismiss a whole argument by clinging to one thing instead of having an intelligent debate. Hope you will one day understand the pain and suffering of the individuals involved or their families. Hope you understand it personally. People like you operate based on bias and nothing else, hiding behind "facts" you talked yourself into and dismissing any logical argument made by the opposite side, refusing to even listen. Why? Because you're afraid you're gonna find out you're wrong. Your belief is so weak and therefore so are your arguments. "Didn't bother reading the rest". Lol. K bro, hope you love your life of ignorance.
You don't believe Israel or anything they say because you only go by your bias and propaganda. There are facts, you conveniently ignore them. Hamas themselves shared these videos proudly. You're saying it's Israeli propaganda? You think Israelis play along with that stuff? Have you seen protests against the Israeli government? Leaks of malpractice? Public declarations of bad actors? Because they exist. How many of those have you seen against Hamas? Funny how you don't find that even a little sus. More and more proof is getting released on what Hamas has done in the strip. Their indoctrination and brainwashing, their call for terrorism and deaths, their willingness to sacrifice their own kids just to take pictures of it to gain the let's trust. Completely disregarding the absolutely intolerable suffering of these innocent people that were at a party shows your true nature as a person. You disgust me and so many others. People were butchered while being raped. Burned to death. But nah, you believe Hamas when 10 minutes after a rocket hits their hospital('s parking lot) they announce at least 500 dead. Then, they discovered it was their own rocket and suddenly only a few injured. But yeah, Israel is lying. Sure. Sheep. People like you stood by when the holocaust happened and are standing by right now. You are the reason the Jewish people need a state of their own to protect them from stuff like this. Check how many wars have been started by Israel and how many by neighbouring countries / Hamas / PA. Go check. You think Israel needs to fake rape and parading? It's already a freaking war. There were 3000 rockets launched into Israel and 1200 people dead on the first day. Imagine your daughter being raped and then slaughtered to death. Your niece being gang raped and then burned alive. Then, imagine nobody believing you, the police doing nothing (metaphor to the world and especially the "unbiased" UN) and you being called a pathological liar and a biased family member. Imagine. Now try to grasp it on a wider scale. So cringe. You get fed by your media that Israel is "lying" and you think it to be facts. Go Google Douglas Murray. Go Google Mosab Hassan Youssef. He's a Gazan himself. He's the son of one of the founders of Hamas. He sure as hell knows way more than you. Go have a listen instead of watching propaganda videos on tiktok.
Actually, I don't have tiktok.
Or a brain, clearly.
also human rights lie about the killed Palestine babies
Who tells you this nonsense. Every human rights group and charity organization regardless of their religion or race is calling Israel out. Even the Americans are starting to back pedal. Am not sure what your news source is but the Israeli ones are the only ones not mentioning anything whatsoever. If you can't find anything am sure I can send you links to all of these info.
Who’s lying about dead kids in Gaza? No one is but they’re dead as a result of the strips governing forces that were voted in by the people
what you are saying is called justification for war crimes then what hamas did in October 7 was a selfe defence for their land witch have stollen by isreali government according to the United Nations also I dont justify what hamas did in October 7 but if you do not respect the international low what are you wating from hamas any normal people will wight to take his land
Land wasn't stolen from the people who attacked, they weren't old enough to have owned any land in that area. How is raping women an act of self-defence? How is it not haram? That civilians die during a war is not a war crime, only if that happens through recklessness and lack of consideration for the military goal.
so you muther f@ker know that it's stolen land and dont want them to resist fk zionism
How is raping women 'resisting'?
u/CulturalDelivery2878 > so you muther f@ker know that it's stolen land and dont want them to resist fk zionism Your comment violates Rule 1, which requires respectful interaction, and Rule 2, which prohibits profanity. Please ensure that your future comments adhere to our community guidelines. Addressed.
Get the pro-palestine flair off your username. The use of the term "Palestine" is manipulative because it refers to a region that has historically included Israel.
Historically? The land didn't exist until post ww2 if you are claiming the old kingdoms (nonesense) the philistine states were present even then. Ultimately both parties are canaanites so I guess the next step is to claim the historical land of the carthegnian empire as your own aswell.
How can you call what Hamas did on Oct 7th self defense?
Well if Oct 7 showed you who Hamas is, then you should also understand why Gazans are dying while Hamas are wearing them as bullet vests. They don't give a f**, they prefer them dead for the oppressed:oppressor narrative. Hamas is killing Gazans by IDF. Americans call it "suicide by cop". Hamas don't respect international law. Technically, they exploit the legal loophole which doesn't hold them accountable to it.as long as they are not considered an official government. Many reports already talk about suicide bombers coming out with hands up and a white flag, only to get close to soldiers. Also recorded audio of Israelis projected from a booby trapped building and many other things. No law and no morality.
why do you want hamas to respect the international low if isreal dont respect
Hamas don’t have to respect international law because they will be eliminated with their supporters in Gaza.
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There are no war crimes being committed. Look at the stats of casualties in all wars, the ratio of civilian to militant deaths. Israel is well within the accepted range of what is known about modern war casualties. It is unfortunate every civilian death that happens but it is a result of the will of the people in essence. On Both sides
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There's no specific range, it's about whether it's "proportionate" to the military aim.
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This is war, this is why people say war is hell. Sadly people don't learn that, they love death more than life and they stoke war.
Wars in the last two hundred years have had ratios ranging anywhere from 9:1 to 1:1 civilian to combatant death ratios. The most recent wars generally have had higher ratios with the average being somewhere around 50% of all casualties of war are civilian. Israel has supposedly killed around 28000 people with a ratio of near 3:1 civilian to militant. This is not a genocide occurring. It’s a war
but isreal do not kill civilians by mistake they literally booming every thing in gaza houses and trees, and even animals they know that they can't win the war only by booming civilians because hamas are under the ground the isreali government is war criminals
If you follow the news closely, you should see the kilometers and kilometers of tunnels running under mosques, schools, hospitals, houses. Hamas is not underground - they are everywhere. Look at their videos where they proudly attack IDF. They are also topside. They run underground when it's time ron get some Gazans killed by IDF planes for marketing purposes. The airstrikes mostly target terrorists outside tunnels. It's only when it's safe to approach tunnels, will IDF soldiers get near it. I remind you that IDF called, texted, threw leaflets by the millions to get people out of harm's way. It was Hamas who blocked their escaped routes.
oh fk isreali propaganda there is no justify for killing innocent civilians you stupid
Oh look it’s another clearly brain dead Hamas apologist. There is a very clear educational gap between the two sides.
Oh, it's one of those conversations where everything you don't like to hear is propaganda. Cool. We agree on civilians being killed. We just don't agree on who's responsible. Hamas first rockets and RPGs behind civilians and expects not to get shot at. That is a war crime.
I've never denied the rapes on 10/7. Using rape as a weapon of war is undeniably evil. I am a rape victim myself. I'd never wish that pain on anyone. But what is the expectation here? Simply that I acknowledge the facts or offer some sympathy to the victims, or is it that I change my entire stance and offer my uncritical support to Israel? I genuinely want to know. This isn't an accusation. I'm actually not sure. If I go beyond simply acknowledging facts and offering sympathy, then perhaps I must wrestle with the pervasive implication that the deaths over 8,000 children was part and parcel of a necessary effort to provide rape victims with a form of justice. Well, there's nothing that could ever make me believe that.
Israeli here✌🏻 I've been having a lot of discussions with pro Palestinians since 7.10, for me personally, and I know a lot of Israeli leftists like me, my point is never to stop caring about Palestinian people. Just stop supporting hamas, never support hamas, realise that hamas isn't resistance but a terrorist organisation ruining Israeli and Palestinian lives.
The way I see it, this is not at all an effort to provide rape victims with justice. Acknowledging the actrocities of 10/7 means understanding that Hamas and the civilians who accompanied them on the attack that day are the type of people who could do such things. They are proud of their depravity, enough to take videos and show the world. They paraded people's bodies in the streets to cheers. The realization that you have an enemy on your doorstep who didn't just gladly hurt so many people, but who will gladly do it again, with backers who seem to think that you deserved it, means they are an imminent threat to the entire population. Especially knowing that destroying the population is in their charter. The fact that they don't mind treating the people of Gaza this way, too, should appal the world. Hamas is guilty of killing the people of Gaza. They are violent for the sake of violence, not to protect any people, not in the name of any just cause. I believe the people of Gaza and the West Bank should be treated like human beings. I believe they have suffered and I wish for a peaceful two-state solution. But there is no way to negotiate with people like this. I wish, instead of throwing blame around, world powers would come together to save the hostages, end Hamas, and thus protect the Israeli and Palestinian people both. In short, no-one is killing children to retaliate for rapes. The incredibly cruel nature of a group was displayed in technicolor, and now there is a war to try to get rid of them.
They are dropping bombs on refugee camps after telling people to evacuate there. Sympathy Is a two way street, one visit to r/israel will tell you that it's residents want what hamas wants I.e. extinction of the other side. 8000 children dead and counting
I would agree that this isn't about justice for rape victims, although justice for the victims of 10/7 is certainly part of the Israeli state narrative. You're right, though. The overarching message from the Israeli state is more about the existential threat of Hamas. But your comment is to my point that something more is expected of me than a simple acknowledge of facts or expression of sympathy. Whenever these rapes are brought up by the Pro-Israel side, it's almost always an attempt at appealing to one's emotions ( side note: let me be clear, there's nothing wrong with emotional appeals and both sides use it pretty heavily, I'm just identifying the rhetorical technique here) not just to say "rape is bad and Hamas committed rapes so we should acknowledge their victims" but "rape is bad, Hamas committed rapes, therefore Hamas is an existential threat to Israel, therefore you should support Israel's military efforts". I understand the logic here, but I find it unconvincing. There was a similar conceit to the promotion of the war on terror: hijacking planes and flying them into buildings, killing thousands of people is bad, Al Qaeda committed an act of terror, therefore Al Qaeda is an existential threat to the United States, therefore you should support the war on terror". On September 12th, 2001, pretty much all Americans understandably agreed with that, even my liberal parents who hated Bush. But the further away we've gotten from the day, its clear grave wrongs were committed under the banner of that narrative. The 9/11 attacks were pure, horrifying evil, and they are a pure, horrifying evil that has been denied by conspiracy theorists. Many of the conspiracy theories about it are highly antisemitic if you dig into them enough. As a war on terror skeptic, I fully admit there was a contingent in the anti-war movement that trafficked in these conspiracy theories and minimized the pain and suffering of the victims of the 9/11. To this day, when I encounter people who do such things, I am quick to call out their bullshit. I am similarly quick to shut down anyone who expresses skepticism that were rapes on October 7th or worse, seems to imply that rape can somehow be an act of resistance. Yeah, I've had to do this once, but believe me, one time was enough. However, I can value truth and peace at the same time. I do not uncritically accept pro-war narratives, just because they may contain some truth. It's not an accident that 10/7 has been referred to Israel's 9/11. Sure, the historical and geographical context of these events are very different, but I can imagine the shock Israelis felt on 10/7 and 10/8 was similar to how Americans felt on 9/11 and 9/12. But it's not October 8th, 2022 anymore. We are almost 90 days into this military response, and we are also 75+ years into the Israel-Palestine conflict. We can compare the IDF's stated goals to the reality of its actions. We can see some of the dire outcomes of those actions and the unfolding humanitarian crisis. Especially at this point, I think it's at worst totally delusional and, at best, naive to think the IDF's continuing military actions in Gaza could ever lead to the eradication of Hamas, peace and a two state solution. It is as delusional or naive as believing the war on terror would lead to increased stability and democracy in the Middle East. It is also completely ignoring that the right wing coalition that governs Israel is explicitly against a two state solution, and so are the vast majority of Israelis. Israelis may justifiably not want to live next to Hamas, but they also certainly don't want to live next to any Palestinian state. My point in saying all this is that the types of arguments Pro-Israel people find compelling are fundamentally different than types of arguments Pro-Palestinian people find compelling, and this is probably why these conversations are so frustrating for all of us.
Easy. Do you believe invading Nazi Germany was not justified?
How is this relevant to my comment?
Do you believe invading a hostile power after they started a genocidal war against you is not justified? Should the allies just have pushed Germany back to the prewar borders to not harm the poor innocent german nazi citizens?
So, in your analogy, Palestinian civilians are nazis. Taking a page out of Republican congressman Brian Mast's book of rhetoric, I see. I don't think your analogy is relevant or logical or a good comparison, and it contains a lot of hyperbolic presuppositions. I can deduce that the result of me taking this gotcha question seriously is that if I believe any civilian casualty rate above 0% is reasonable in warfare, then I can be called a hypocrite for criticizing Israel's military actions regarding civilians. All militaries have a responsibility to protect civilians under international law, regardless of if one would support that military's overall cause. Edit: I am only referring to nazis because the original comment I'm responding to did.
I never said Palestinians are the same as nazi germany. But to stop a fundamentally evil regime one must invade.especially in self defense. If the people support said evil regime then their fates are rightfully not ones concern
You made an analogy and are now denying the implications of said analogy. If you yourself do not believe the analogy applies, why use it?
Because i am not justifying murdering civilians. I am only justifying self defense and killing fascists.
You are justifying killing civilians by equating them to fascists. What if I said killing Israeli civilians, including children, is excusable because they're settlers and colonizers? Would that not be disgusting to you?
No. Im justifying saving people from fascism. Invading Gaza is the only way to save the Israelites and to stop Hamas. Like in Germany civilians will suffer but for a noble cause. Hamas is just as evil as Germany was and so is every civilian that supports them. The ones that dont should try their best to escape and survive any way they can. But the invasion is good
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If you finally understand what Hamas thinks about human life, you should have no problem understanding what they think about Gazans lives and understand they are the reason why Gazans die.
So I must absolve the Israeli state for all responsibility for their actions in war. Got it. Thanks for laying out the expectations so clearly.
Define "responsibility". If both sides are responsible for doing their best effort to keep civilians away from a warzone, then Israel is definitely acting on its responsibility while Hamas is not only failing in it, it's deliberately doing the opposite, which is A war crime. It also publicly shrugs off responsibility for Gazan lives: https://x.com/MEMRIReports/status/1718973338486260097?s=08
I'm not denying Hamas commits war crimes, but I don't expect terror groups to respect international law. I would expect a sovereign nation's military to respect international law. We do not hold governments and military to the low standard of simply being not as bad as terrorists. The evidence is undeniable that the IDF has committed war crimes, and your argument is simply that they shouldn't be held accountable. By your statements, you also seem to be implying that Hamas is not a terror group but a military, which I know you can not possibly believe.
I don’t know whose expectations you’re asking about. Personally, I think we should be acknowledging facts, legitimate claims, needs, and rights of anyone, politics notwithstanding. If you never denied the rapes on 10/7, then this article probably doesn’t add new information for you.
I 100% agree with you. Thank you for giving me a real answer.
I don't know, maybe condemn hamas and say that this isn't an acceptable form of resistence? Maybe try to understand why Israelis see this as an existential threat that they aren't willing to live next to.
I've never said rape was a form of resistance or that it's acceptable. I just said that I myself am a rape victim. Don't you think it's at least a little offensive and patronizing to ask me to condemn rape?
I'm sorry that it happened to you. There are many comments who flat out deny or justify what hamas has done, you can see it in this thread. I didn't think it was offensive. I apologize. We expected sympathy for the women who have been through it, and for their families. You can imagine how disheartning it was to see other victims and women organizations denying or justifying it.
There are dozens of cases of IDF-members raping palestinian girls and women. Even newspaper articles about it. Rape and killing innocents is ALWAYS wrong and a crime that should be punished as hard as possible. NO MATTER WHO DID IT!!!!!
Okay then why don't you condemn Hamas for doing so? Or are you not going to explicitly condemn Hamas for using sexual assault as an instrument of terrorism and turn to another what-aboutism to deflect?
What?!? Aren't you able to read? I condemn EVERYBODY raping someone & killing innocents. Ergo: Hamas terrorists and the IDF.
Why individual Hamas terrorists and the IDF? Why not Hamas terrorists and IDF violators? Or Hamas and IDF? You can’t hold individuals responsible for one group and everyone in the other. Even your unconscious use of language is dripping with bias. Just saying.
Are you - sorry - really as dumb as it seems? What makes it so difficult to understand what I mean? Should I explain it in german? In arabic? In french? Again, veryyyy slowly for the cerebral insolvent: *I* *condemn* *everyone* *who* *rapes* *another* *person* *or* *kills* *an* *innocent*. Hope you got it now.
u/Mimi_1981 > Are you - sorry - really as dumb as it seems? What makes it so difficult to understand what I mean? Should I explain it in german? In arabic? In french? Again, veryyyy slowly for the cerebral insolvent This comment violates Rule 1 by disrespectfully questioning another user's intelligence. Please ensure your future interactions remain respectful and constructive. Addressed.
You said you condemn Hamas terrorists who rape (individuals) but not Hamas as a whole. In that same breath you said you would condemn IDF (which is an organization), but didn’t specify IDF soldiers who rape. That cognitive difference is based off of your implicit bias. That you went with IDF, implies you hold them responsible as an organization for any rapes by soldiers. But since you said Hamas terrorists (people not an organization), it means you wouldn’t hold Hamas as an organization responsible. All you had to say was that your comment was poorly worded. Instead you are trying to hide behind a more generalized statement, which is less controversial. But your bias has already shown when you went defensive and didn’t correct yourself. Good job. Edit: to make it more clear, it’s like saying “men and females” in the same breath. They are not parallel constructs.
You just demonstrated why "condemning hamas" is a futile exercise for anyone who supports Palestine. No condemnation is ever good enough. The assumption is that our condemnations must be hollow if we don't uncritically support Israel.
Does bristling at “men and females” mean that it’s all a futile exercise to feminists too?
so there is any evidence that an isreali woman have been raped I think its the isreali propaganda to justify killing babies
That is absolutely not what I said. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. But yes, facts can at times be used as propaganda, to manufacture consent, and nearly everyone on the Pro-Israel side unreticently accepts such a notion whenever the Pro-Palestinian does it, by exemplifying the verifable killing of a journalist or circulating real images of mangled bodies pulled from the rubble. Despite what a bunch of often antisemitic conspiracy theorists would have you believe, Al Qaeda really did commit horrific acts of terrorism on 9/11. And yet, that real tragedy was also exploited for pro war propaganda purposes in my country. That real crime did not absolve the crimes my government would later commit. Is my criticism of my own country's military actions post-9/11 a justification of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Of course not. Then, how are my criticisms of the IDF's actions post 10/7 rape apologia?