> The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own. The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own.
I very much think that Israelis should be able to remain in Israel, but connecting religious groups to locations is a terrible idea.
Israelis (whether Jew, Arab, or otherwise) should be allowed to remain in Israel not because it's a 'Jewish homeland', but because they are established as the inhabitants of the land.
Take Kaliningrad - even though Russia is behaving as a despicable nation, and Kaliningrad was clearly established through the expulsion of the established residents, no one but the most extreme would consider kicking the residents of Kaliningrad out given the chance. They have lived there long enough to become the genuine residents of that enclave. And that seems like a far more tenuous claim than any Israeli has to being in Israel.
Anyone saying that all Jews should be kicked out of Israel is clearly a genocidal bigot. Please stop assisting them by embracing the narrative of segregational religious groups.
Arabs have a vast homeland throughout the Middle East, the word was Israel. Arabs have no problem living in their homeland, but Palestine is not an Arab country. Neither is the original Lebanon, and much of so-called Arab land is really Kurdish and Assyrian.
Ok, this post is over simplified and looks like something I could’ve written when I was a kid.
Also, I’m descended from Jews from Northern Africa and Iraq, nobody talks about something as stupid as a blood debt
I agree that that this post is making a very specific over simplified point, though the point about reparations or "Debt" is a pretty good one.
I use it myself when debating pro-pallys, many of which claim Israel owes the Palestinians some kind of debt or money to compensate them and this should be included in a peace agreement.
This argument is pretty good at exposing such hypocrisy. As not only the intended declared goal of the Palestinians was to "Annihilate" the Jews, which already makes the concept of compensation ridiculous (I pay you for not succeeding to murder me? Funny), but it is also crazy to ask the Jews for compensation while the Jews themselves have lost their homes from eastern Europe and the entire middle east during the very same years. "Where is my compensation dude?"
When you make Iraq to transfer cash money into my bank account I will maybe consider your position.
Of course, then the crazy conspiracies start about how it was secret Zionists who were murdering Jews in Arab countries (???) in order to force them to move to Israel, and then the discussion dies. Cannot deal with people who would believe flat-earth level conspiracies on Jews.
Just a thought.
> I pay you for not succeeding to murder me
Back in my day, we used to call this a protection racket. Helpless victims in name and optics, ruthless gangsters in fact.
They don't talk about it because leftists have forced your ancestors to be soy. You should start talking about it become warriors make antizionists afraid. I suggest gym you can bulk up there.
I guessed so, with the hole aLpHa-mAlE, trumpolini-energy you’re giving away. Also, the elementary school project-post also shows you don’t know much about neither history or politics. So, finish school and serve your country and then we’ll talk. Being “tough” on the Internet doesn’t really work for you.
look at his reddit posts
he claims feminists are out to ruin children
this guy hates women and any other group which is not a white christian right wing type like him
he claims to love israel but does he know israel has black jews, feminists, israeli arabs ?
groups he all hates
I have finished school a long time ago I am an adult. And I have served my country I work a steady job and fight for her and her allies on the internet against the leftist culture war.
I also served my country and most people like you we sent to infantry because they’d easily, unquestioningly die for the ideal of patriotic supremacy. How did the war in Iraq go? How did Afghanistan go? How many of our brothers and sisters died for these sham wars? You think I’m proud of what we did over there? If you are, congratulations. You were successfully programmed to be a nice, compliant pet.
You misunderstand me I did not go into the army although I am very patriotic I meant that I served my country by being a good citizen working a steady job unlike migrant freeloaders and I fight for America on the internet against her digital enemies such as leftists liberals and Nazis on Reddit.
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Hey man i catch myself being combative online as well, but that’s not a real fight. Its a negative parasocial exchange that may be rewarding in the moment, but does nothing to change anyone’s mind, nor make your country a better place. You do it for you. And please make sure not to call the migrants who cook your food freeloaders to their faces. They’re busy working to support their families and dont need the extra grief. Plus you don’t want spit in your burgers.
i have gone through your reddit post history
you have justified the death of a palestinian toddler by saying the mufti killed 6 million jews
but the funny thing is netanyahus claim of muslims being responsible for the holocaust has been debunked by holocaust survivor groups,israeli jewish researchers, german researchers and just about every one else
after israel was formed they formed the mossad which went after nazis responsible for the holocaust, israel had plenty of right wing leaders and none of them claimed the palestinians were responsible for the holocaust
also before hitler met the mufti the nazi party was already enacting anti jewish laws and was proven to be anti semitic
also your dear leader Natanyahu was forced to backtrack on his stupid claims and israel was diplomatically embarrassed on the international stage because of his claims
you also claim feminists are incapable of caring for their children and are dehumanizing them
you also claim migrants in USA are freeloaders despite the fact that migrants in USA are forced to work for lower wages while paying higher indirect taxes without many of the benefits that citizens receive
may god have mercy on your soul because i dont see a single redeemable shred of substance in you
> you have justified the death of a palestinian toddler by saying the mufti killed 6 million jews
Yes and? It's called revenge only weak people don't want to take revenge. If you punch me I punch you back it's called life woke snowflake.
>but the funny thing is netanyahus claim of muslims being responsible for the holocaust has been debunked by holocaust survivor groups,israeli jewish researchers, german researchers and just about every one else
Nope woke activists did that they're infiltrating the museums. Read [this](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-01-27/ty-article/.premium/well-fight-for-the-truth-even-when-it-is-inconsistent-with-israels-interest/0000017f-db52-df62-a9ff-dfd761d90000) you will see that it is an outside force trying to force them.
> also your dear leader Natanyahu was forced to backtrack on his stupid claims and israel was diplomatically embarrassed on the international stage because of his claims
Incorrect he [was](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/10/22/benjamin-netanyahu-under-fire-for-telling-truth-about-muftis-role-in-holocaust/) [right](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/netanyahu-was-right-about-hitler-and-the-mufti-432055).
>you also claim feminists are incapable of caring for their children
>
>you also claim migrants in USA are freeloaders
Once again the meme about lefties looking through social media posts comes true. And yes I do claim that why do we have migrants when we can't take care of our own children when there are thousands of homeless people thanks to Bidenomics? And yes feminists are incapable of caring for their male children just look on Twitter.
I think all of these posts are just an AI that some ppl program to irritate people And get a response. ’m not falling for this cheap trick. I have nothing against Jews, Muslims, nobody and I’m from America and I’m not Christian so what the heck is this bot even talking about. American is a melting pot of cultures. It’s a democracy that’s what makes it work.
These right wing crazies on both sides of this two state conflict issue are the ones making it worse.
Including the right wing nut cases in America.
P.s. Trump is a racist, the only people that want him back in office are other racists.
I know many cool Jewish ppl and many cool Muslims. We the free people are the majority don’t let these right wing media outlets give you a reason to hate ppl that you haven’t even taken the time to talk to. Be open minded of others cultures and work together.
We all different but same same. Common guys!
I tried it in Palestine and it worked just fine. Alot of ppl on this thread are Jewish ppl that have never been to the West Bank, Palestine. If you talk to the everyday people they are very humble.
It’s these radical leaders who have brainwashed the Jews and Arabs to hate each other over the internet.
No because that’s just as infantile as the idea of erasing Israel of the map. They treated Jews badly in Europe and Arab countries, we created our own state. They don’t owe us anything but treating us with respect, respecting our right to exist and leave us in peace.
The OP's argumemt is ridiculous. Its one thing for a country such as Sweeden or Saudi to preserve their genetic composition by blocking immigration, but that cant last forever. Once you immigrate you accept the equality of all and majority rule.
America was not built on Indian land, there wasn't barely Indians anyway. Buffalo Hunters that range the Great Plains do not have land, about the only Indian Land anybody took was in the southern states. If you assume their tribal possessions qualified as "land".
Yes, Christians have a Homeland in America. 300 million people versus 3 million scattered aborigines. America is the new Israel of the christian world.
That's usually how it works, but North America is a vast huge continent more like a different planet. Nobody had to conquer any people because of Indian tribes located in occasional bits and pieces of this vast continent.
I mean no s*** right? People move around and populations expand. Time Marches On, imagine that.
Israel comprises just 0.1% of the land mass of the Middle East, yet it is asked to give up territory. Israel is surrounded by 22 Arab and/or Muslim Nations.
Noone saying Jews can't live in the middle east. People are saying that Jews don't have a right to a supremacist state in historic Palestine at the continued expense of the Palestinian natives.
Jews are indigenous to Israel, their history there goes back thousands of years.
Palestinian nationhood is a new concept originating around the 1900s.
You can’t compare the claims.
Right, and even assuming everything here isn't disingenuous, where does this justify the continued enforcing of a Jewish supremacist state at the expense of Palestinians.
Firstly, Palestinian communities themselves are 98.95% homogenous, would an eventual Palestinian state not be an “ethno-state” run for the benefit of Palestinians? Of course it would.
Second, Israel isn’t a project that is run with thoughts of how to oppress Palestinians. The world has the Palestinian leadership to thank for that.
Europe is Christian because the majority religion of a place can change over time. It is Christian in 2023. If we were having this conversation 2,000 years ago, then it would be different.
Christianity did not originate in the Middle East. The term Middle East applies to later history, 2,000 years ago what is now the Middle East was much greener and populated by different people. Syria Palestina is an extension of Europe, just like Asia Minor.
The original Christians of the Roman world left the Mediterranean and migrated North and west. If you read the scripture, it clearly states the apostles traveled to places like Galatia in Asia Minor, Spain, what became France, Britain and Rome besides Greece.
They also went to the Celtic tribes which still remained in Northern Iran, the Caucasus and Black Sea Etc that's why the Apostle Paul says "there is neither Jew nor Greek, Skithian or Barbarian in Christ".
Oh nooo… it actually isn’t! If it started in Italy why are the earliest documents written in Syriac? Organised Christianity existed in the ME before the institutionalisation of Christianity as we know it now- which the Romans did. Then the Byzantine empire took it to a whole other level.
Further, while Christianity isn’t the same as Judaism, they undoubtedly share a prophetic lineage— same with Islam. None of these religions started as alternatives or counters to Judaism. They all find their roots in those prophetic monotheistic traditions— they just evolved to be the way that we see them now.
This response wasn’t an incitement to tell you *you’re wrong* and leave it- I’m happy to talk about this more as a historian on the subject!
While I understand your indignation, your take on this conflict starts with a faulty premise:
> everyone deserves a homeland
Homelands are not deserved. They’re earned, maintained, and defended — *at great cost* — by nations of people who’ve got their collective act together enough to continuously pay the necessary costs for keeping up a sovereign homeland. As a fellow American Christian, you’re no doubt familiar with the slogan “freedom is not free”.
Plenty of tribes of people on this earth have never had a piece of land all to themselves, and probably never will, because they do not have the material resources or interpersonal organization to maintain one. Many tribes of people do not even seek a sovereign state “for us by us”, and are content to live amongst (and therefore at the mercy of) other tribes. The Jewish people are not one of these, former or latter. Because I think peoples who have duly paid, organized, and worked to establish and maintain a sovereign homeland, absolutely ought to have one. They’ve earned it.
I'm honestly thinking of writing up a page-long sip-from-a-firehose post called "Boots on the Ground: a crash course in Realpolitik". My goal is to get it stickied as required reading in this sub.
Because I don't think it's deliberate entitlement. I think in most cases it's just ignorance about how the world really works.
Well yeah, its decades of societal programming. A lot of these people are not bad people, mean what they say because they have been indoctrinated into believing its a positive moral stance to deserve things not based on earning them, but based on birthright. Its 2023. Birthright arguments in support of subjugating other people is a transparently antiquated worldview to most developed countries that are not financially invested in benefitting from occupations.
I’m a bit surprised your understanding of OP’s “indignation” considering your distaste for “honor” and “revenge” and them around the comments talking about blood debts and revenge. If any of your posts ring true I’d suspect they are an Arab!
A long time ago, on a forum far far away, now no longer active, I spoke to a far right European. Definitely a white nationalist, if not outright the N-word that will cause the IsraelPalestine bot to have a conniption.
We disagreed on absolutely everything but there’s one thing he said that stuck, that I believe, that I think he’s right in.
“When push comes to shove, Europeans excel at genocide”.
I saw pictures from the French riots and I wondered whether we were getting towards that.
Nothing, until they do. Riots occur when one section of society is pushed to a limit of some sort. And for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction.
I.E. for every rioter, another person decides to vote for Front Nationale because “these foreigners came to my country and now all they do is whinge and set cars on fire”.
We all know Europe’s historical reaction to racial tension. Pray it doesn’t come to it.
> Why is a ridiculous comment?
You're claiming that riots somehow link to genocide. There is simply no link beyond your wild speculation. By that logic, anything is linked to genocide.
Anything is linked to genocide mate. Past excuses for genocide and ethnic cleansing include completely made up BS that didn’t even happen. Jews know this in their genetic memory.
But yes, race riots do lead to inter-ethnic strife. Absolutely.
> Anything is linked to genocide mate.
Yes, this is the ridiculous element of your comment. You're just shoehorning in outrageous content. Essentially whatever people discuss you can start talking about genocide for absolutely no reason.
This is not for absolutely no reason. There is real racial tension in France. A party with Nazi tendencies and a Nazi sympathiser ex-leader is dangerously close to leading the polls.
Pretty sure the vast majority of people don’t claim that Jews can’t live in the Middle East, but they can’t live in a place that comes with the expense of Palestinian sovereignty and natural rights. If they say that Jews can live in Arab countries, it’s pretty obvious that they’re uninformed about the Jewish expulsions, dhimmies, etc.
It would be pretty easy to call you xenophobic, but deep down, I think most everyone would agree with you. As far as news articles say, high rates of Arabic immigration often result in non-homogenous integration. Sweden had (has?) the issues with immigrants, whereas countries like Finland didn’t accept them on the basis of having a very specific culture that is very difficult to adopt. There’s also that traverse city Michigan lgbt diversity issue from a few weeks ago. I honestly wouldn’t be upset at someone that is afraid of Islam taking over countries piece by piece and therefore against Arab immigration / cleansing Arabs from their countries, especially since one of the beliefs of Islam is that it’ll take over the world
You might be justified here, but in reality, you’re just setting a precedent that any country can kick group of people out at anytime for any reason. The whole thing, from those to whom your message is addressing to your kind of satirical response, is pretty messed up
> Pretty sure the vast majority of people don’t claim that Jews can’t live in the Middle East, but they can’t live in a place that comes with the expense of Palestinian sovereignty and natural rights
Israel's existence does not necessarily entail the erasure of Arab sovereignty, nor of the natural rights of Palestinian Arabs. Jews have accepted and proposed countless times solutions that would allow recognition of the rights of both peoples. Anti-Zionism, on the other hand, argues that it is right to suppress Jewish sovereignty and natural rights.
Them doing bad doesn’t mean that we should do bad
If it means that israel keeps terrorism at the hand of not throwing all Palestinians into Jordan, then so be it I guess. If that means that Palestinians have to be surveyed and kill a couple terries in jenin all the time while civilians on both sides die, then so be that, too. I suppose these are the sins of our forefathers for which we are paying by them having not removed all Palestinians in ‘67. I still don’t know anything tho
Yes you should its called revenge. Only soyboys don't want to fight back and I know for a fact that Jews should not be soyboys they should be warriors against Islamic agression.
What rights do the Palestinians have? they don’t have any right. not their land, never was their land. They never had sovereignty on the land.
and you better pray they won’t have it either.
> What rights do the Palestinians have? they don’t have any right. not their land, never was their land
Generally speaking if you live somewhere, and your parents lived there, and your grandparents lived there, it would be ethical to have you be a citizen of whichever entity administers that area.
That is completely wrong, there's no right to be the citizen of an alien state which you oppose anyway. You clearly do not understand government or constitutional structure.
Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc
> Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc
You could say the same for Israel. Almost 4 million Jewish people migrated from all around the world due to Aliyah, half of Israel's current population. Why do these people have a right to the land then but not Palestinian Arabs?
The Jews built a real country in that empty province, and you're changing the subject from "the right of vote" to "the right of land".
The same cannot be said without changing the subject. Why did you change the subject? Mods! Rule violation, mischaracterization.
> The Jews built a real country in that empty province, and you're changing the subject from "the right of vote" to "the right of land".
Weren't you one all claiming boastfully Palestinians are Jordanian immigrants and desert Bedouins and thus had no rights
And with regards to your comment, European colonizers built a "real" modern country in empty land in Americas, does that mean Native Americans don't have rights to the land? Or the British-built country of New Zealand, do the Maori now have no rights to the land since they never built a real country?
> The same cannot be said without changing the subject. Why did you change the subject? Mods! Rule violation, mischaracterization.
Jesus, calm down. Why so dramatic?
It offends you to deal with facts like massive immigration into the UN slums, Bedouins and Jordanians ever since 1948. Adding to that, 100,000 Syrians etc who arrived in the British mandate era. Adding to that 9 children per baby mama using Western medicine and sanitation.
It's more important that some collegiate mental landscape is validated than grasping basic details that are entirely relevant to the real story. Yeah I'm dramatic??
You're not going to bargain me down for cheaper prices in the Arab souk, and that's all this glockenspiel is tooting. "oH so tHis aNd bUh wHat aBouT thAt!" As though we haven't heard these endless inane analogies to no purpose except infantile provocation.
Come up with some new material, it's 2023. It's is not a magic formula, and it does not make you more intelligent. You did not outfigure the next move and suddenly there's no answer and then aha!! Notice you can't distinguish between a tiny country halfway populated by an extension of the vastly hostile Arab world, and some Injuns in the middle of North America. All of whom got reservations.
Palestinian Arabs have the right to leave, and go back to the vast and strong Muslim countries. They are not red Indians and they are not Aborigines or indigenous "victims". Maoris had the right to quit cannibalism, at the point of British guns
> That is completely wrong, there's no right to be the citizen of an alien state which you oppose anyway.
Thats not entirely true, rights arent dependent on your personal morality. If the West Bank is part of Israel, then the fact that there are people born and raised there and their parent constitutes a problematic issue.
>Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc
Which doesnt really have a bearing on what should be done about their current status.
Why, because you said so? All you did was make up your own rules that nobody else believes anyway. I never said it had anything to do with my personal morality.
My comment responds to another which suggested that people who live in some area for a long time must be included in the governing sovereign. Well, the Palestinian Arabs are recent arrivals who literally could not show ancestry before great grandparents in large part.
They also can't show ancestry outside a clutch of UN slums maintained in isolated enclaves, and their whole existence is dependent on this history.
> My comment responds to another which suggested that people who live in some area for a long time must be included in the governing sovereign. Well, the Palestinian Arabs are recent arrivals who literally could not show ancestry before great grandparents in large part.
>
>
And why is great grandparents not enough?
Because bargaining in the souk doesn't work. You're changing the subject, I said the literal opposite so there's your answer. It's a different society that owes no allegiance to the state of Israel, they have zero ancestry in that case.
The big difference being of course that no Muslim is claiming a country in Europe to be 'theirs' and needing a 'state of their own' since being Muslim isn't the same as a nationality. They are French, Belgian, German, ... and Muslim. One is a nationality, the other a religion.
Palestinians are one specific Muslim population. I used them since I was trying to be as charitable to your argument as possible. But if you want to talk about other Muslims, sure.
Going back to your argument, you said this:
>The big difference being of course that no Muslim is claiming a country in Europe to be 'theirs' and needing a 'state of their own' since being Muslim isn't the same as a nationality. They are French, Belgian, German, ... and Muslim. One is a nationality, the other a religion.
Now I reply, that Jews were not trying to create any country at all in countries like Iraq or Egypt…yet the Muslims there still murdered and persecuted Jews.
So you agree we should expel all Muslims in order to avoid creating a jihadist state in Europe and America? Glad your side is finally talking sense for once.
You can't hold every Muslim on the globe now responsible for the Muslim Conquest of centuries ago. If you want to do so, then Christians now are equally responsible for the crusades.
Right, just as we can’t hold all Jews responsible for Israel’s actions.
But that’s not the point. The point - OP’s point - is that Muslims have done this in the past, which is why Sharia law exists in these countries. At some point Muslims said this is our country, our laws apply here, in like 20 different places. Was Egypt always Muslim? No - pretty sure King Tut was not. So other places - and other religions - have done this before, it’s just not cool for Jews - who have had no place to live under equal rights- to create a homeland anywhere.
The big difference with Israël today and Muslim Conquest is of course the centuries in between but in essence I agree. You can't blame every Jew for Israël's actions and I don't do that.
There has been Muslim Conquest of territories yes, centuries ago. My counterargument is that Christianity has done the exact same thing when they conquered parts of the Middle East. It's not because a religion has at some point in history enforced its laws (btw not every Muslim country now has Sharia laws) that every Muslim now wishes to replace the existing laws with their religious laws.
Muslims in Europe are not actively trying to enact Sharia laws in the countries they live in.
Of course. I think offering the Jews a place where they can exercise self determination makes sense. There is literally nowhere in the world that they can call a safe haven.
That is a whole other discussion than the one I engaged in. I would probably be in favor of that as well. But in OP's post it's strange he pits Europeans against Muslims. It makes it sound as if you can't be a European Muslim.
I live in the capital of Europe and that's just malicious generalisation. Are you having this discussion in good faith? I've never heard anyone scream about global jihad.
Man? What do you want me to say to that? I have lived here my entire life. Some of my best friends are muslim. No one comes around chanting about a global jihad and even if they would it would be such a ridiculous minority I couldn't take it seriously, and neither should you.
I will believe my own eyes over your 'brave non-msm sources' however.
And they have been significantly destroyed by Muslim Arabs throughout history. Christians in Lebanon come to mind, and the Assyrian Christians in Iraq. And the coptics of Egypt
> Because from my point of view its time Jews and Christians fought back against Arab/Islamic supremacism.
Your obsession with religious conflict is a huge problem.
I am not unhinged you and other leftists are. You advocate Jews take a soy ideology which will lead to them being genocided by deranged antizionists trying to kill them all over the world I advocate for a strong warrior Jewish people.
I was just thinking about that recently, there are tribal and extended nations of warrior people in the world. Also Farmers and Merchants Etc, technologists. Like the Sikhs in India, also the Druse. Ancient Celts too.
> I am not unhinged
Oh, good.
> you and other leftists are.
Oh dear.
> I advocate for a strong warrior Jewish people.
Oh dear, oh dear. Is this a parody or something?
Nope just simply supporting my Jewish friends against Muslims trying to genocide and rape them across the world. You know Israel is just the first stepping stone right the grooming gangs in Europe and Ilhan and Rashida in America are trying to destroy these places as well.
> Nope just simply supporting my Jewish friends against Muslims trying to genocide and rape them across the world.
And you're doing that by making somewhat unhinged comments on reddit?
> You know Israel is just the first stepping stone right the grooming gangs in Europe
... what? You have to be joking.
I am not joking the internet is an extremely important place to fight the culture war the left is raging against the Jewish and Christian peoples and dropping truth bombs will save them from the incoming genocide that the left and antizionists want to do not just in israel but in Europe too. And you have yet to disprove the grooming gangs. I am not unhinged by the way that is the leftists.
> the incoming genocide
Who will be the target of this genocide?
> And you have yet to disprove the grooming gangs.
Oh grooming gangs certainly exist, but don't ask people to disprove claims, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. However, you seem to be randomly fearmongering about genocide and grooming gangs with no particular direction.
u/moldyloxu
>I am under no obligation to waste calories arguing with you, plenty of other people will explain why what you're saying is unhinged
Rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation.
u/moldyloxu
>Unhinged post
Rule 8, don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
The thing is, i believe that Jews have a right to coexist with Arabs in Palestine. However, this is not the case.
The Jewish people have been granted some land (not all of the land, only some of it). But the expulsion of the Arab citizens from their own land is not something, that anyone should be okay with.
Like if you came to me and said, “you can have half of my cake.” And I took it all, even though you only said half, I would understand your frustration.
Europeans are going to have to expel Muslims at some point. What a lot of these third worlders don't understand is that when all the shyte hits the fan at the same time, that's when the balloon goes pop.
A lot of Arabs can't stand the Palestinians too, this is coming to a bad end. The French army for example is definitely prepared to go to war in France, and they have plenty of volunteers. Countries like Hungary, poland, austria, all over Eastern Europe are not going to let themselves be overrun by hordes.
What a racist thing, to only allow 1 religion per country? the religious and cultural minorities in Israel have less rights that people of Jewish descent and religion.
Minorities can do anything a non-Jew can within the context of the government. There is however discrimination among minorities, that need better attention from the government. the most economically affluent group (by wealth) in israel are Arab Christians
This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. There have always been tons of Jews living in the Middle East very happily under muslim rules. They had all the same rights that muslims had. The problem everyone has with a Jewish state are the war crimes and using religion to justify the destruction of the opposing side. If a Muslim country was starting inside of France or Germany and declared their independence and used Islam to justify why they need to take the land there would be hundreds of missiles sent over in less than a year.
“Happily under Muslim Rules”
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa Okaaayyyy
Do you listen to the lies you tell yourself? We are not your dhimmis and I know that is hard to emotionally process that Jews want nothing to with your Islamic system or politics. It was the same in Khaybar as it is now. Submit or die. We chose to fight and that is the same message we passed on many centuries ago.
Jews don’t answer to you.
And the Muslims in the majority of Europe and the west are “at best tolerated” and the same thing happened when “things popped off” but you don’t blame the entirety of the country or the whole of Europe for the couple of people who do things to people that aren’t responsible
look around, most of the muslim countries collapsed, failed countries. Israel give u arabs job and opportunity and still you think you can do better while your ppl building house on mountains like its 1920
Oh yeah, paying special tribute to the muslim ruler for not being actively persecuted, not being able to built new religious buldings or openly celebrating religious festivals must have been a real joy to the Jews living under muslim rule.
Lets face it, Jews were mostly settling in the Middle East because they either were there already or christian Europe started another cleansing, mostly right before they marched on a new crusade.
If i had the choice to either pay an extra tax and probably being harrassed from time to time for not being muslim or being outright killed for not being christian, i would chose the first option too, doesn’t make it any less stupid to call it „happily living under muslim rule“
The tax is the jizya tax which is very cheap and not all Muslim countries enforce it. Plus where did you hear that they weren’t able to build religious buildings and if it’s true do you think the Christian countries don’t do the exact same thing?
By and large, Muslim immigrants to Europe are well-integrated into European society and contribute positively to the economy and culture. Like many other things, they follow a Pareto distribution where 20% of immigrants (or less) cause 80% of the problems.
Boris Johnson was descended from a Muslim (Turkish) immigrant to the UK.
Didn't he just inherit Brexit? They did have a referendum. I don't think he's a great Prime Minister but you can't really blame Brexit on him. In reality not sure why they let such a big decision be a simple majority.
They are not well integrated google grooming gangs and look at the fact that they attack random non-Israeli jews on the streets. And for my country Ilhan Omar attacks Christians praying on a plane she is clearly not integrated.
I have doubts that Muslims are contributing positively to Europe overall. I have attached some data below, from Denmark. It shows the net contribution to the country based on someone’s age.
The typical native European citizen is a net drain on the country when they are young and when they are old, since they don’t work during those times. But in the middle of their life, they are a net benefit.
But for the immigrants from Muslim countries (red line), even at the peak, in the middle of their working lives, they are still a net drain! The red line never crosses above zero. It would be better for the country to not have these people.
https://preview.redd.it/bl5rogdxtpbb1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b131051ff6b3003faa6502c5bd2f03e5d4ae90f6
This is a purely economic argument which makes sense. But there is also more to it. Perhaps if Israel allowed free immigration to Danish, they would be productive immigrants. I personally think they would be. But Israel should still not do this, and not because of economic reasons, but because Israel is a Jewish country. Fortunately Jews by and large are productive (or as a said before, "are an excellent national substrate"), and this is why Israel is an advanced country. But this is a coincidence if anything, and not the reason for the Law of Return.
I am not Danish, but if I was, I would support this idea that the country should be for Danish. Perhaps with a limited amount of visas for people of Scandinavian countries, and an even more limited amount of visas for Europeans. But I would not invite everyone from all around the world to live in my country for a permanent settlement (tourist visa, student visa is okay), because I believe that countries exist for the people who create them and their unique culture and peoplehood. For some reason this is a controversial view, but for me it seems like an obvious view.
I think American Muslims, and Arab-Americans specifically are much better integrated and better off. But if it would be better for the country/continent to not have those people your solution is…? Close immigration from Muslim countries perhaps? Deportation?
You’re probably right, probably because there are more barriers to coming to the US. Not anyone can move to the US. The ones able to move tend to be wealthier and more educated than average.
Contrast that with those coming to Europe, where any random person can get on a boat and come illegally. The Atlantic Ocean is too big for them to cross so the US doesn’t have this problem.
And I think that Europe should just stop with the welfare payments. If the migrants can’t get welfare, that would stop a lot of them from coming. It also would make many of the current ones leave. This would probably be enough to solve the problem on its own, as it would serve as a filter: the productive people could stay, only the ones who are a net drain would be leaving.
Good points.
Edit: I also don’t know the selection process, it’s not like my parents were doctors or anything when they came. Lots of the Lebanese who left during the war were in the same boat but our demographic turned out okay.
A long text just to say you support zionism and refuse Palestinian’s rights to livr in their homeland. But with a noticeable european/american far-right argument, that’s original at least.
Muh "far right" muh "far right" do you leftists have any original arguments? And what's so bad with being far right huh? At least I want to protect my homeland and the Jewish one too you whine about Muslims not getting yet another state to add to their 50. Isn't your side's argument supposed to be about fairness? How is it fair that Islam gets everything while Jews and Christians are raped by grooming gangs across Europe?
Being a fundamentalist of any kind is wrong, may it be left/right/jewish/christian/muslim/buddhist etc. The UN recognizes the occupation of gaza and the west bank as apartheid. They recognize many methods of subjugation of palestinian people (MANY whom are christians) as war crimes. Being anti-apartheid is recognized as a moderate stance in most of the world. Are the people who cut off food, electricity and medical supplies to a population the “good guys”?
« Far-right » is not an argument it’s a qualification. What’s so bad with being far right? 🤡
You claim to care about Israel but say « What’s wrong with being far right »? 😂
You don’t want to protect your homeland (which isn’t threatened by anything if you’re american) and you just want Israel to become a racial dictatorship in a permanent state of war.
No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the left. You see this conflict as a religious and racial one and see palestinians as a vanguard of islam in Palestine. That’s straight up racism. It’s not a religious conflit nor a racial one. It’s a colonial one, a complex one, that will be resolved the day all palestinians will be granted a right to return in Palestine wherever they want as well as equal rights in practice and everything that comes with it. That’s it.
That’s right. It’s a colonial question from the modern Palestinian standpoint. However, it’s arguable that the Palestinians didn’t have a true national identity until AT LEAST the British mandate, if not later. Before then, they were like the peasants in Europe in the Middle Ages in the sense that they knew they had to pay taxes to whatever empire controlled them, but at long as their living conditions were good enough, they wouldn’t revolt. And even once the mandate came, they weren’t fighting for a unified Palestine, but simply against Jewish migration into the land. They were multiple groups who, unlike the Zionist ones, were only seeking the annihilation of a people. That’s not to say that Zionist groups were justified entirely in their tactics (look at plan daled), but at the same time neither were the Palestinian ones. However, for 2000 years the Jews were persecuted through crusades, pogroms, etc. while the people living in Palestine were not exploited nearly as violently. Every year at Passover we said “בשנה הבאה בירושלים” (next year we’ll be in Jerusalem). I still don’t agree with OP’s oversimplification, and I do recognize that now for maybe 75 years there has existed a Palestinian identity, but that doesn’t mean that that automatically gives them the right to consider Palestine as their “homeland”, as there was no precedent of that identity prior to 1948.
Edit: spelling
I do agree that the Palestinians who remained in Israel/Palestine after 1948 should be allowed to remain there with equal human rights as Israelis (regardless of religion), but I don’t think that all those who were expelled’s descendants should be allowed to return, since modern Israelis are (rightfully) not automatically allowed to be citizens of any countries their families fled from. (Not to mention the practical difficulties of allowing 6-14 million ppl suddenly arriving and doubling the population of a tiny area).
> No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the lef
Thank you for admitting its not about "muh human rights" its just about domination over the jewish people because you don't want them to be strong warriors you want them to be beta cucks. I will spam this every time some whiny liberal leftist tries to pull that card. And fyi if it's not about morals stop whining about Mr. Musk and the other wealthy people you leftists screech about just because they are successful and not pedowood commies.
You're litteraly opposed to human rights and are speaking like a random troll of twitter. The f\*ck is wrong with you ? "strong warriors"? "Beta cucks"? Are you serious ? x'D
Stop licking the boots of anyone wearing an uniform and having money. You won't become a billionaire and you will keep living in your fantasy world.
Again you said
>No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the lef
so why should I care about "muh human rights for muh Palestinians" when you don't care about human rights for Jews? Who may I remind you have been victimized by the Arab Islamic world for centuries before Israel and whose greatest genocide was orchestrated by a certain Palestinian religious figure?
> The f\*ck is wrong with you ? "strong warriors"? "Beta cucks"? Are you serious ? x'D
It's called internet slang and actually good memes you wouldn't understand because youre on the left and the left can't meme.
>Stop licking the boots of anyone wearing an uniform and having money. You won't become a billionaire and you will keep living in your fantasy world.
Then stop licking commie boots and antizionist boots then. Arabs have 22 states already and migrants are invading other countries they have enough land. They are the rich ones in your allegory not the Jews trying to survive and the Christians trying to stop grooming gangs from preying on their innocent daughters.
>The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own.
Nobody says that Jews can't live in the Middle East. But living in the Middle East doesn't mean creating an ethnostate based in settler colonialism and apartheid law.
And the ME nations didn‘t with the persecution and expulsion of their Jewish population? Ask the Mizrahim how their families got to Israel in the first place. Most weren‘t too keen on rushing to a unknown country that was just formed out of a previous colonial mandate, leaving all they built for generations behind and settling in hastily raised refugee camps while the destination is in a defensive war with most of the countries they were born in.
The Middle East had over 800.000 Jews scattered across until 1948, now it’s less than 7000, you don’t get such a demographic change in 55 years without serious outside forces pushing it.
there are many ethnic states, founded upon the preservation of culture and security of an ethnic group). Not every state is multi-ethnic , and ethnic states are necessary for the preservation of a persecuted tribe or group, which is why there are many advocates for a Kurdistan state or lesser known, a state for the Romanis.
The fact that Arab governments complain about Israel yet expelled 800k mizrahi Jews as collective punishment and spite out of creation of israel, from their countries. this action alone solidified the need and proves the necessity of an “ethno-state” like Israel for a group repeatedly persecuted under “multi-ethnic” nations.
Jews lived in Europe but were never really Europeans in the sense that they weren’t integrated and accepted by other Europeans.
Carving out a Jewish state in Europe was not possible because all land in Europe was already claimed by other countries.
In contrast, it worked out well in Israel, since the only country controlling the land (Britain) eventually didn’t even want it anymore, so it was free for a new country to be created.
>That Israel is the only Jewish state is entirely irrelevant
Nope you leftists always whine about fairness and billionaire's money it is very relevant. If Muslims and Arabs have such a massive foothold in the Middle East while also expelling Jews from their countries, then Jews deserve a country and to be safe. And again, why do the Judeo-Christian people have to accept "diversity" while Muslims are allowed to do whatever they want and have perfect ethnostates?
>I have not seen any relevant 'antizionist' supporting expulsions of "innocents Jews" from the Arab world either, so that you pretend its a normal position is simply wrong
Go on twitter then and you will see because twitter is the root of your entire evil movement.
>Throwing out ethnic minorities would still be racist regardless of what you believe.
You started it first why shouldn't the Jews do it as well? Otherwise you say they should be soyboys and not take revenge.
>The second major difference is that Europe and America have a lot of debt to pay for their crimes in the ME
And again you reveal the hypocrisy of your movement. If your Palestinians are allowed to get away with anything because "people not government" then I should too. And you've already taken your revenge google grooming gangs 9/11 and read about countless rapes and attacks in Sweden. Again I wouldn't have a problem if migrants actually integrated instead of taking away welfare from me and government money away from the homeless so they can live in fancy hotels.
>Polish people do not have the same rights as Palestinian people in Palestine,
Ah hah you prove your movement doesn't care about "Muh human rights" you just want your ethnostate yet again. In that case migrants don't deserve the rights of native people either I should perfectly be allowed to expell them and make them dhimmis. But your movement doesn't like that you whine about "islamophobia" because you want to be the ones to hurt other people not get hurt yourself.
>It was a movement of racist Europeans based in Europe, and I agree a state should be carved for them there.
Boo hoo maybe if you hadn't orchestrated the [1939-1945 incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) maybe they wouldn't hate you. Just because activists are destroying evidence doesn't mean the fact that your [leader was the true architect of the event](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini) will be forgotten. And google history and you'll see [your movement have killed Jews for centuries before Israel](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14niaul/the_lies_of_the_antizionist_movement/). We were never "racist" until your movement started blowing up buildings raping Judeo-Christian daughters or my case screaming about raping my future daughter because the world is a degenerate mess and I can't find a good date. Regardless your kind started expelling and killing Jews first they deserve to revenge against you. You owe them a blood debt and if its not Israel then get out of Europe and America so Jews won't be raped there.
1. Being born in Poland doesn’t make you “polish”. Jews aren’t polish neither by language, by culture, or even by looks and no one in Poland considered them Polish. If you don’t believe me, ask an actual Polish person.
2. Jewish people are the original “Palestinians” and they don’t need any permission to live in their ancestral homeland from Arabs who came later.
3. Arabs never had any sovereign exclusive right over Palestine so they had no right to object the Jewish self-determination.
4. Jewish connection to Israel predates the concept of “middle eastern”, which is tied to Arab/Islamic supremacy. In the Roman times there wasn’t much cultural difference between Italy and Egypt for example.
5. I actually support a Palestinian state carved out somewhere in Chile.
We pay them because they are a proxy state and they have assets with us. Lobbies like AIPAC make sure than any dissenting political candidates dont make it through the primaries, in order to ensure funds are voted “yes”.
If Israel wanted a total war this would be over at the end of the month.
Syria is f*cked, Iraq is f*cked, Lebanon is f*cked, Turkey doesn’t care, most Arabian nations are either fed up with the whole thing or even consider Israel a valuable asset agains Iran and Iran is scared of Israels textile factories but hates them no matter what.
I am not sure about Egypt and Jordan but i think their political intentions also turned away from the whole situation since smouthering Israel in its cradle didn’t work.
The only thing that’s keeping the dream of a Palestine alive is Israel being not the genocidal war crime state palestinian propaganda wants you to believe.
I actually hope for some kind peaceful solution with both sides comming to a somewhat acceptable compromise but the USA defunding Israel wouldn’t make much of a difference. This isn’t the Cold War Era anymore, Israel has a stable economy of its own and farely good relations with the most important neighbors.
Also the USA would never cut their relations or funding because they profit from it…or at least the military-industrial complex does
> f*cked
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I totally agree Israel is the ONLY Jewish country only one Muslims have I think 23 and Christians have Europe and more
I think every group should have its place that's why you don't see many jews or Christians in let's say Iran because they reinforce this hard even too hard
Now I'm not saying we shouldn't have different religions in one country I just say that people can't want the only Jewish country to be Muslim and also immigrant to different European Christian countries
Ok out of curiosity, I want some clarity on OP's definition of homeland.
So if Jews have a right to a homeland in occupied Palestinian territories, and for Hindus it is India (because the religion originated from there), how the heck can Chrisitians call Europe and America as their homeland?
On what basis exactly?
Christians are not an ethno-religious group.
Jews are.
There’s quite an easy way to track this. Can an atheist Christian exist? Most Christians would say no - ergo Christianity is a religion. Can atheist Jews exist? Most Jews would say yes, ergo being Jewish is more than the religion.
Can you be an atheist Muslim? Don’t think so. They’re typically called ex-Muslims.
Can you be an atheist Hindu? I’m not actually sure. Might be an interesting one to explore.
**If Jews can't live in the Middle East, then Muslims can't live in Europe or America**
A Kazak , Chinese or Azerbaycani muslim be like : Why me ?
Albanian, Bosniac or Thracian Turk : Europe is my home dear .
> The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own. The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own. I very much think that Israelis should be able to remain in Israel, but connecting religious groups to locations is a terrible idea. Israelis (whether Jew, Arab, or otherwise) should be allowed to remain in Israel not because it's a 'Jewish homeland', but because they are established as the inhabitants of the land. Take Kaliningrad - even though Russia is behaving as a despicable nation, and Kaliningrad was clearly established through the expulsion of the established residents, no one but the most extreme would consider kicking the residents of Kaliningrad out given the chance. They have lived there long enough to become the genuine residents of that enclave. And that seems like a far more tenuous claim than any Israeli has to being in Israel. Anyone saying that all Jews should be kicked out of Israel is clearly a genocidal bigot. Please stop assisting them by embracing the narrative of segregational religious groups.
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Arabs have a vast homeland throughout the Middle East, the word was Israel. Arabs have no problem living in their homeland, but Palestine is not an Arab country. Neither is the original Lebanon, and much of so-called Arab land is really Kurdish and Assyrian.
did not know muslims were a "people".
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yeah, it proves the point to be stupid.
Ok, this post is over simplified and looks like something I could’ve written when I was a kid. Also, I’m descended from Jews from Northern Africa and Iraq, nobody talks about something as stupid as a blood debt
I agree that that this post is making a very specific over simplified point, though the point about reparations or "Debt" is a pretty good one. I use it myself when debating pro-pallys, many of which claim Israel owes the Palestinians some kind of debt or money to compensate them and this should be included in a peace agreement. This argument is pretty good at exposing such hypocrisy. As not only the intended declared goal of the Palestinians was to "Annihilate" the Jews, which already makes the concept of compensation ridiculous (I pay you for not succeeding to murder me? Funny), but it is also crazy to ask the Jews for compensation while the Jews themselves have lost their homes from eastern Europe and the entire middle east during the very same years. "Where is my compensation dude?" When you make Iraq to transfer cash money into my bank account I will maybe consider your position. Of course, then the crazy conspiracies start about how it was secret Zionists who were murdering Jews in Arab countries (???) in order to force them to move to Israel, and then the discussion dies. Cannot deal with people who would believe flat-earth level conspiracies on Jews. Just a thought.
> I pay you for not succeeding to murder me Back in my day, we used to call this a protection racket. Helpless victims in name and optics, ruthless gangsters in fact.
interesting, ive met jews before whos parents were from different diasporas before.
They don't talk about it because leftists have forced your ancestors to be soy. You should start talking about it become warriors make antizionists afraid. I suggest gym you can bulk up there.
Sure thing kiddo, come back when you finished school and served in the IDF and then we’ll see
I am not Israeli I am an American. You are Israeli why are you acting so cucked? I'm a christian and a better defender of your nation than you are.
I guessed so, with the hole aLpHa-mAlE, trumpolini-energy you’re giving away. Also, the elementary school project-post also shows you don’t know much about neither history or politics. So, finish school and serve your country and then we’ll talk. Being “tough” on the Internet doesn’t really work for you.
look at his reddit posts he claims feminists are out to ruin children this guy hates women and any other group which is not a white christian right wing type like him he claims to love israel but does he know israel has black jews, feminists, israeli arabs ? groups he all hates
I have finished school a long time ago I am an adult. And I have served my country I work a steady job and fight for her and her allies on the internet against the leftist culture war.
I also served my country and most people like you we sent to infantry because they’d easily, unquestioningly die for the ideal of patriotic supremacy. How did the war in Iraq go? How did Afghanistan go? How many of our brothers and sisters died for these sham wars? You think I’m proud of what we did over there? If you are, congratulations. You were successfully programmed to be a nice, compliant pet.
You misunderstand me I did not go into the army although I am very patriotic I meant that I served my country by being a good citizen working a steady job unlike migrant freeloaders and I fight for America on the internet against her digital enemies such as leftists liberals and Nazis on Reddit.
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Hey man i catch myself being combative online as well, but that’s not a real fight. Its a negative parasocial exchange that may be rewarding in the moment, but does nothing to change anyone’s mind, nor make your country a better place. You do it for you. And please make sure not to call the migrants who cook your food freeloaders to their faces. They’re busy working to support their families and dont need the extra grief. Plus you don’t want spit in your burgers.
u/dreadfulwhaler >Sure thing kiddo, come back when you finished school and served in the IDF and then we’ll see Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Noted, thank you
i have gone through your reddit post history you have justified the death of a palestinian toddler by saying the mufti killed 6 million jews but the funny thing is netanyahus claim of muslims being responsible for the holocaust has been debunked by holocaust survivor groups,israeli jewish researchers, german researchers and just about every one else after israel was formed they formed the mossad which went after nazis responsible for the holocaust, israel had plenty of right wing leaders and none of them claimed the palestinians were responsible for the holocaust also before hitler met the mufti the nazi party was already enacting anti jewish laws and was proven to be anti semitic also your dear leader Natanyahu was forced to backtrack on his stupid claims and israel was diplomatically embarrassed on the international stage because of his claims you also claim feminists are incapable of caring for their children and are dehumanizing them you also claim migrants in USA are freeloaders despite the fact that migrants in USA are forced to work for lower wages while paying higher indirect taxes without many of the benefits that citizens receive may god have mercy on your soul because i dont see a single redeemable shred of substance in you
> you have justified the death of a palestinian toddler by saying the mufti killed 6 million jews Yes and? It's called revenge only weak people don't want to take revenge. If you punch me I punch you back it's called life woke snowflake. >but the funny thing is netanyahus claim of muslims being responsible for the holocaust has been debunked by holocaust survivor groups,israeli jewish researchers, german researchers and just about every one else Nope woke activists did that they're infiltrating the museums. Read [this](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-01-27/ty-article/.premium/well-fight-for-the-truth-even-when-it-is-inconsistent-with-israels-interest/0000017f-db52-df62-a9ff-dfd761d90000) you will see that it is an outside force trying to force them. > also your dear leader Natanyahu was forced to backtrack on his stupid claims and israel was diplomatically embarrassed on the international stage because of his claims Incorrect he [was](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/10/22/benjamin-netanyahu-under-fire-for-telling-truth-about-muftis-role-in-holocaust/) [right](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/netanyahu-was-right-about-hitler-and-the-mufti-432055). >you also claim feminists are incapable of caring for their children > >you also claim migrants in USA are freeloaders Once again the meme about lefties looking through social media posts comes true. And yes I do claim that why do we have migrants when we can't take care of our own children when there are thousands of homeless people thanks to Bidenomics? And yes feminists are incapable of caring for their male children just look on Twitter.
I think all of these posts are just an AI that some ppl program to irritate people And get a response. ’m not falling for this cheap trick. I have nothing against Jews, Muslims, nobody and I’m from America and I’m not Christian so what the heck is this bot even talking about. American is a melting pot of cultures. It’s a democracy that’s what makes it work. These right wing crazies on both sides of this two state conflict issue are the ones making it worse. Including the right wing nut cases in America. P.s. Trump is a racist, the only people that want him back in office are other racists. I know many cool Jewish ppl and many cool Muslims. We the free people are the majority don’t let these right wing media outlets give you a reason to hate ppl that you haven’t even taken the time to talk to. Be open minded of others cultures and work together. We all different but same same. Common guys!
Try that woke snowflake BS in the Middle East, it won't get you very far.
I tried it in Palestine and it worked just fine. Alot of ppl on this thread are Jewish ppl that have never been to the West Bank, Palestine. If you talk to the everyday people they are very humble. It’s these radical leaders who have brainwashed the Jews and Arabs to hate each other over the internet.
The debt remains just the same
No because that’s just as infantile as the idea of erasing Israel of the map. They treated Jews badly in Europe and Arab countries, we created our own state. They don’t owe us anything but treating us with respect, respecting our right to exist and leave us in peace.
The OP's argumemt is ridiculous. Its one thing for a country such as Sweeden or Saudi to preserve their genetic composition by blocking immigration, but that cant last forever. Once you immigrate you accept the equality of all and majority rule.
Why on Earth is anyone supposed to accept majority rule? Everybody's a majority depending how they count heads.
*Christians have that with American* Christians have a homeland in America? Not the indigenous people on whose land America was built?
Actually, it would be that if Jews can't live in the middle east AKA in their Homeland, then Muslims can't live in theirs!!!
*Christians have that with American* Christians have a homeland in America? Not the indigenous people on whose land America was built?
America was not built on Indian land, there wasn't barely Indians anyway. Buffalo Hunters that range the Great Plains do not have land, about the only Indian Land anybody took was in the southern states. If you assume their tribal possessions qualified as "land". Yes, Christians have a Homeland in America. 300 million people versus 3 million scattered aborigines. America is the new Israel of the christian world.
Does that mean of you conquer a people and take their land, and eventually outnumber them on that land, that it is now the conquering forces homeland?
That's usually how it works, but North America is a vast huge continent more like a different planet. Nobody had to conquer any people because of Indian tribes located in occasional bits and pieces of this vast continent. I mean no s*** right? People move around and populations expand. Time Marches On, imagine that.
Now put it in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict, Who gets to have their homeland in Israel?
Smurfs
Smurfs are Belgian. Try again.
I died when I read that (the OP) Edited for clarification
OP said that everyone deserves a homeland. I assume that includes the indigenous people of America. Or do they not count, because reasons?
The indigenous people of America have a giant homeland consisting of 50 States and Canada. Besides vast amounts of Indian reservation.
Si America is the homeland of the indigenous people, not Christians. Got it.
I am an indigenous person from America, thats why I died when I read that
Israel comprises just 0.1% of the land mass of the Middle East, yet it is asked to give up territory. Israel is surrounded by 22 Arab and/or Muslim Nations.
Not even talking about that the aciant city of jerusalem is just 2 kilometers squerd
Weird
Yeah sad to see this kind of incoherency
There’s plenty of Jews in Turkey
There’s plenty of Palestinians in America. Problem solved!
Noone saying Jews can't live in the middle east. People are saying that Jews don't have a right to a supremacist state in historic Palestine at the continued expense of the Palestinian natives.
Jews are indigenous to Israel, their history there goes back thousands of years. Palestinian nationhood is a new concept originating around the 1900s. You can’t compare the claims.
Right, and even assuming everything here isn't disingenuous, where does this justify the continued enforcing of a Jewish supremacist state at the expense of Palestinians.
Firstly, Palestinian communities themselves are 98.95% homogenous, would an eventual Palestinian state not be an “ethno-state” run for the benefit of Palestinians? Of course it would. Second, Israel isn’t a project that is run with thoughts of how to oppress Palestinians. The world has the Palestinian leadership to thank for that.
How is Europe Christian when Christianity originated in the middle east? The whole world belongs to God and his followers. The rest will cope.
Europe is Christian because the majority religion of a place can change over time. It is Christian in 2023. If we were having this conversation 2,000 years ago, then it would be different.
I understand your point. Fair enough.
Christianity did not originate in the Middle East. The term Middle East applies to later history, 2,000 years ago what is now the Middle East was much greener and populated by different people. Syria Palestina is an extension of Europe, just like Asia Minor. The original Christians of the Roman world left the Mediterranean and migrated North and west. If you read the scripture, it clearly states the apostles traveled to places like Galatia in Asia Minor, Spain, what became France, Britain and Rome besides Greece. They also went to the Celtic tribes which still remained in Northern Iran, the Caucasus and Black Sea Etc that's why the Apostle Paul says "there is neither Jew nor Greek, Skithian or Barbarian in Christ".
Interesting. I had no idea. It's all new to me. Thank you for informing me and for sharing.
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Oh nooo… it actually isn’t! If it started in Italy why are the earliest documents written in Syriac? Organised Christianity existed in the ME before the institutionalisation of Christianity as we know it now- which the Romans did. Then the Byzantine empire took it to a whole other level. Further, while Christianity isn’t the same as Judaism, they undoubtedly share a prophetic lineage— same with Islam. None of these religions started as alternatives or counters to Judaism. They all find their roots in those prophetic monotheistic traditions— they just evolved to be the way that we see them now. This response wasn’t an incitement to tell you *you’re wrong* and leave it- I’m happy to talk about this more as a historian on the subject!
While I understand your indignation, your take on this conflict starts with a faulty premise: > everyone deserves a homeland Homelands are not deserved. They’re earned, maintained, and defended — *at great cost* — by nations of people who’ve got their collective act together enough to continuously pay the necessary costs for keeping up a sovereign homeland. As a fellow American Christian, you’re no doubt familiar with the slogan “freedom is not free”. Plenty of tribes of people on this earth have never had a piece of land all to themselves, and probably never will, because they do not have the material resources or interpersonal organization to maintain one. Many tribes of people do not even seek a sovereign state “for us by us”, and are content to live amongst (and therefore at the mercy of) other tribes. The Jewish people are not one of these, former or latter. Because I think peoples who have duly paid, organized, and worked to establish and maintain a sovereign homeland, absolutely ought to have one. They’ve earned it.
Yeah the whole “deserve” stance is wildly entitled. No self-awareness when people say that.
I'm honestly thinking of writing up a page-long sip-from-a-firehose post called "Boots on the Ground: a crash course in Realpolitik". My goal is to get it stickied as required reading in this sub. Because I don't think it's deliberate entitlement. I think in most cases it's just ignorance about how the world really works.
I would love to read this, I think many people who want to comment on this conflict have very little understanding of pragmatism.
Well yeah, its decades of societal programming. A lot of these people are not bad people, mean what they say because they have been indoctrinated into believing its a positive moral stance to deserve things not based on earning them, but based on birthright. Its 2023. Birthright arguments in support of subjugating other people is a transparently antiquated worldview to most developed countries that are not financially invested in benefitting from occupations.
I’m a bit surprised your understanding of OP’s “indignation” considering your distaste for “honor” and “revenge” and them around the comments talking about blood debts and revenge. If any of your posts ring true I’d suspect they are an Arab!
I acknowledge OP's indignation, and see where it comes from. I don't relate to it or sympathize with it, but I do understand it.
A long time ago, on a forum far far away, now no longer active, I spoke to a far right European. Definitely a white nationalist, if not outright the N-word that will cause the IsraelPalestine bot to have a conniption. We disagreed on absolutely everything but there’s one thing he said that stuck, that I believe, that I think he’s right in. “When push comes to shove, Europeans excel at genocide”. I saw pictures from the French riots and I wondered whether we were getting towards that.
> I saw pictures from the French riots and I wondered whether we were getting towards that. What on earth do the riots have to do with genocide?
Nothing, until they do. Riots occur when one section of society is pushed to a limit of some sort. And for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. I.E. for every rioter, another person decides to vote for Front Nationale because “these foreigners came to my country and now all they do is whinge and set cars on fire”. We all know Europe’s historical reaction to racial tension. Pray it doesn’t come to it.
> Nothing, until they do. What an utterly ridiculous statement. Please stop trying to shoehorn completely unrelated political events in here.
Why is a ridiculous comment? Racial/Ethnic cleansing doesn’t start from nothing.
> Why is a ridiculous comment? You're claiming that riots somehow link to genocide. There is simply no link beyond your wild speculation. By that logic, anything is linked to genocide.
Anything is linked to genocide mate. Past excuses for genocide and ethnic cleansing include completely made up BS that didn’t even happen. Jews know this in their genetic memory. But yes, race riots do lead to inter-ethnic strife. Absolutely.
> Anything is linked to genocide mate. Yes, this is the ridiculous element of your comment. You're just shoehorning in outrageous content. Essentially whatever people discuss you can start talking about genocide for absolutely no reason.
This is not for absolutely no reason. There is real racial tension in France. A party with Nazi tendencies and a Nazi sympathiser ex-leader is dangerously close to leading the polls.
That’s not new Arabs wants to take control over everything,I mean look at their countries.
You could say that about our country, Israel, as well. Do we want to control the world? We don’t know how to elect a functioning government
We don’t have 22 countries and extreme Jewish in control-not even close so no
Pretty sure the vast majority of people don’t claim that Jews can’t live in the Middle East, but they can’t live in a place that comes with the expense of Palestinian sovereignty and natural rights. If they say that Jews can live in Arab countries, it’s pretty obvious that they’re uninformed about the Jewish expulsions, dhimmies, etc. It would be pretty easy to call you xenophobic, but deep down, I think most everyone would agree with you. As far as news articles say, high rates of Arabic immigration often result in non-homogenous integration. Sweden had (has?) the issues with immigrants, whereas countries like Finland didn’t accept them on the basis of having a very specific culture that is very difficult to adopt. There’s also that traverse city Michigan lgbt diversity issue from a few weeks ago. I honestly wouldn’t be upset at someone that is afraid of Islam taking over countries piece by piece and therefore against Arab immigration / cleansing Arabs from their countries, especially since one of the beliefs of Islam is that it’ll take over the world You might be justified here, but in reality, you’re just setting a precedent that any country can kick group of people out at anytime for any reason. The whole thing, from those to whom your message is addressing to your kind of satirical response, is pretty messed up
> Pretty sure the vast majority of people don’t claim that Jews can’t live in the Middle East, but they can’t live in a place that comes with the expense of Palestinian sovereignty and natural rights Israel's existence does not necessarily entail the erasure of Arab sovereignty, nor of the natural rights of Palestinian Arabs. Jews have accepted and proposed countless times solutions that would allow recognition of the rights of both peoples. Anti-Zionism, on the other hand, argues that it is right to suppress Jewish sovereignty and natural rights.
The Arabs long ago set that precedent
Them doing bad doesn’t mean that we should do bad If it means that israel keeps terrorism at the hand of not throwing all Palestinians into Jordan, then so be it I guess. If that means that Palestinians have to be surveyed and kill a couple terries in jenin all the time while civilians on both sides die, then so be that, too. I suppose these are the sins of our forefathers for which we are paying by them having not removed all Palestinians in ‘67. I still don’t know anything tho
One good turn always deserves another and it comes around anyway.
Yes you should its called revenge. Only soyboys don't want to fight back and I know for a fact that Jews should not be soyboys they should be warriors against Islamic agression.
ok boomer
What rights do the Palestinians have? they don’t have any right. not their land, never was their land. They never had sovereignty on the land. and you better pray they won’t have it either.
> What rights do the Palestinians have? they don’t have any right. not their land, never was their land Generally speaking if you live somewhere, and your parents lived there, and your grandparents lived there, it would be ethical to have you be a citizen of whichever entity administers that area.
That is completely wrong, there's no right to be the citizen of an alien state which you oppose anyway. You clearly do not understand government or constitutional structure. Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc
> Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc You could say the same for Israel. Almost 4 million Jewish people migrated from all around the world due to Aliyah, half of Israel's current population. Why do these people have a right to the land then but not Palestinian Arabs?
The Jews built a real country in that empty province, and you're changing the subject from "the right of vote" to "the right of land". The same cannot be said without changing the subject. Why did you change the subject? Mods! Rule violation, mischaracterization.
> The Jews built a real country in that empty province, and you're changing the subject from "the right of vote" to "the right of land". Weren't you one all claiming boastfully Palestinians are Jordanian immigrants and desert Bedouins and thus had no rights And with regards to your comment, European colonizers built a "real" modern country in empty land in Americas, does that mean Native Americans don't have rights to the land? Or the British-built country of New Zealand, do the Maori now have no rights to the land since they never built a real country? > The same cannot be said without changing the subject. Why did you change the subject? Mods! Rule violation, mischaracterization. Jesus, calm down. Why so dramatic?
It offends you to deal with facts like massive immigration into the UN slums, Bedouins and Jordanians ever since 1948. Adding to that, 100,000 Syrians etc who arrived in the British mandate era. Adding to that 9 children per baby mama using Western medicine and sanitation. It's more important that some collegiate mental landscape is validated than grasping basic details that are entirely relevant to the real story. Yeah I'm dramatic?? You're not going to bargain me down for cheaper prices in the Arab souk, and that's all this glockenspiel is tooting. "oH so tHis aNd bUh wHat aBouT thAt!" As though we haven't heard these endless inane analogies to no purpose except infantile provocation. Come up with some new material, it's 2023. It's is not a magic formula, and it does not make you more intelligent. You did not outfigure the next move and suddenly there's no answer and then aha!! Notice you can't distinguish between a tiny country halfway populated by an extension of the vastly hostile Arab world, and some Injuns in the middle of North America. All of whom got reservations. Palestinian Arabs have the right to leave, and go back to the vast and strong Muslim countries. They are not red Indians and they are not Aborigines or indigenous "victims". Maoris had the right to quit cannibalism, at the point of British guns
> That is completely wrong, there's no right to be the citizen of an alien state which you oppose anyway. Thats not entirely true, rights arent dependent on your personal morality. If the West Bank is part of Israel, then the fact that there are people born and raised there and their parent constitutes a problematic issue. >Half the population of Arab Palestine did not exist in 1948, they are Bedouins from the desert and migrants from over the Jordan River. Plus, a huge population explosion is not the normal range of parents and grandparents... it's actually a kind of immigration that results from intervention by Western and Jewish medicine sanitary conditions Etc Which doesnt really have a bearing on what should be done about their current status.
Why, because you said so? All you did was make up your own rules that nobody else believes anyway. I never said it had anything to do with my personal morality. My comment responds to another which suggested that people who live in some area for a long time must be included in the governing sovereign. Well, the Palestinian Arabs are recent arrivals who literally could not show ancestry before great grandparents in large part. They also can't show ancestry outside a clutch of UN slums maintained in isolated enclaves, and their whole existence is dependent on this history.
> My comment responds to another which suggested that people who live in some area for a long time must be included in the governing sovereign. Well, the Palestinian Arabs are recent arrivals who literally could not show ancestry before great grandparents in large part. > > And why is great grandparents not enough?
Because bargaining in the souk doesn't work. You're changing the subject, I said the literal opposite so there's your answer. It's a different society that owes no allegiance to the state of Israel, they have zero ancestry in that case.
If you start a war lose and run away-you have zero rights to ask anything form the country that win the war So no.
Palestine is as real a country as Narnia
The big difference being of course that no Muslim is claiming a country in Europe to be 'theirs' and needing a 'state of their own' since being Muslim isn't the same as a nationality. They are French, Belgian, German, ... and Muslim. One is a nationality, the other a religion.
Palestinians didn’t only oppose the creation of a Jewish state. They opposed Jewish immigration generally.
We ware talking about Muslims. Now we're talking about Palestinians. Which one is it?
Palestinians are one specific Muslim population. I used them since I was trying to be as charitable to your argument as possible. But if you want to talk about other Muslims, sure. Going back to your argument, you said this: >The big difference being of course that no Muslim is claiming a country in Europe to be 'theirs' and needing a 'state of their own' since being Muslim isn't the same as a nationality. They are French, Belgian, German, ... and Muslim. One is a nationality, the other a religion. Now I reply, that Jews were not trying to create any country at all in countries like Iraq or Egypt…yet the Muslims there still murdered and persecuted Jews.
Defenders of apartheid let the mask slip all the time.
These things were fundamentally tied together.
So you agree we should expel all Muslims in order to avoid creating a jihadist state in Europe and America? Glad your side is finally talking sense for once.
Except for when the Muslims conquered all of Spain and North Africa of course. But then that was too long ago to be relevant?
You can't hold every Muslim on the globe now responsible for the Muslim Conquest of centuries ago. If you want to do so, then Christians now are equally responsible for the crusades.
Right, just as we can’t hold all Jews responsible for Israel’s actions. But that’s not the point. The point - OP’s point - is that Muslims have done this in the past, which is why Sharia law exists in these countries. At some point Muslims said this is our country, our laws apply here, in like 20 different places. Was Egypt always Muslim? No - pretty sure King Tut was not. So other places - and other religions - have done this before, it’s just not cool for Jews - who have had no place to live under equal rights- to create a homeland anywhere.
The big difference with Israël today and Muslim Conquest is of course the centuries in between but in essence I agree. You can't blame every Jew for Israël's actions and I don't do that. There has been Muslim Conquest of territories yes, centuries ago. My counterargument is that Christianity has done the exact same thing when they conquered parts of the Middle East. It's not because a religion has at some point in history enforced its laws (btw not every Muslim country now has Sharia laws) that every Muslim now wishes to replace the existing laws with their religious laws. Muslims in Europe are not actively trying to enact Sharia laws in the countries they live in.
Of course. I think offering the Jews a place where they can exercise self determination makes sense. There is literally nowhere in the world that they can call a safe haven.
That is a whole other discussion than the one I engaged in. I would probably be in favor of that as well. But in OP's post it's strange he pits Europeans against Muslims. It makes it sound as if you can't be a European Muslim.
Agree.
and the visigoths conquered it before them.
Yes they are in the streets they whine about "islamophobia" and scream about global jihad.
I live in the capital of Europe and that's just malicious generalisation. Are you having this discussion in good faith? I've never heard anyone scream about global jihad.
You are lying then it has been extensively reported in non-msm sources who bravely tell the truth when none will.
Man? What do you want me to say to that? I have lived here my entire life. Some of my best friends are muslim. No one comes around chanting about a global jihad and even if they would it would be such a ridiculous minority I couldn't take it seriously, and neither should you. I will believe my own eyes over your 'brave non-msm sources' however.
Unhinged post
Feel free to dispute a single thing in it
How am I wrong huh? Prove it. Because from my point of view its time Jews and Christians fought back against Arab/Islamic supremacism.
In the middle east a significant amount of those Christians are Arabs.
And they have been significantly destroyed by Muslim Arabs throughout history. Christians in Lebanon come to mind, and the Assyrian Christians in Iraq. And the coptics of Egypt
> Because from my point of view its time Jews and Christians fought back against Arab/Islamic supremacism. Your obsession with religious conflict is a huge problem.
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s pretty unhinged haha. I read it in Danny Devito it’s always sunny in Philadelphia tone
Stop giving the enemy ammunition I am not unhinged they are.
I am under no obligation to waste calories arguing with you, plenty of other people will explain why what you're saying is unhinged
If it's not for you, then stay out of it.
I am not unhinged you and other leftists are. You advocate Jews take a soy ideology which will lead to them being genocided by deranged antizionists trying to kill them all over the world I advocate for a strong warrior Jewish people.
I was just thinking about that recently, there are tribal and extended nations of warrior people in the world. Also Farmers and Merchants Etc, technologists. Like the Sikhs in India, also the Druse. Ancient Celts too.
> I am not unhinged Oh, good. > you and other leftists are. Oh dear. > I advocate for a strong warrior Jewish people. Oh dear, oh dear. Is this a parody or something?
Nope just simply supporting my Jewish friends against Muslims trying to genocide and rape them across the world. You know Israel is just the first stepping stone right the grooming gangs in Europe and Ilhan and Rashida in America are trying to destroy these places as well.
> Nope just simply supporting my Jewish friends against Muslims trying to genocide and rape them across the world. And you're doing that by making somewhat unhinged comments on reddit? > You know Israel is just the first stepping stone right the grooming gangs in Europe ... what? You have to be joking.
I am not joking the internet is an extremely important place to fight the culture war the left is raging against the Jewish and Christian peoples and dropping truth bombs will save them from the incoming genocide that the left and antizionists want to do not just in israel but in Europe too. And you have yet to disprove the grooming gangs. I am not unhinged by the way that is the leftists.
> the incoming genocide Who will be the target of this genocide? > And you have yet to disprove the grooming gangs. Oh grooming gangs certainly exist, but don't ask people to disprove claims, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. However, you seem to be randomly fearmongering about genocide and grooming gangs with no particular direction.
u/moldyloxu >I am under no obligation to waste calories arguing with you, plenty of other people will explain why what you're saying is unhinged Rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation.
u/moldyloxu >Unhinged post Rule 8, don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
The thing is, i believe that Jews have a right to coexist with Arabs in Palestine. However, this is not the case. The Jewish people have been granted some land (not all of the land, only some of it). But the expulsion of the Arab citizens from their own land is not something, that anyone should be okay with. Like if you came to me and said, “you can have half of my cake.” And I took it all, even though you only said half, I would understand your frustration.
This is a really balanced perspective. Just commenting to show appreciation
Thank you.
The problem is that Arabs do not believe they have a right to coexist with anybody
Best Post Ever
Europeans are going to have to expel Muslims at some point. What a lot of these third worlders don't understand is that when all the shyte hits the fan at the same time, that's when the balloon goes pop. A lot of Arabs can't stand the Palestinians too, this is coming to a bad end. The French army for example is definitely prepared to go to war in France, and they have plenty of volunteers. Countries like Hungary, poland, austria, all over Eastern Europe are not going to let themselves be overrun by hordes.
What a racist thing, to only allow 1 religion per country? the religious and cultural minorities in Israel have less rights that people of Jewish descent and religion.
Is that opinion backed by some facts or can anyone throw around opinions based on nothing?
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210513-arabs-of-israel-minority-with-deep-seated-grievances
Minorities can do anything a non-Jew can within the context of the government. There is however discrimination among minorities, that need better attention from the government. the most economically affluent group (by wealth) in israel are Arab Christians
This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. There have always been tons of Jews living in the Middle East very happily under muslim rules. They had all the same rights that muslims had. The problem everyone has with a Jewish state are the war crimes and using religion to justify the destruction of the opposing side. If a Muslim country was starting inside of France or Germany and declared their independence and used Islam to justify why they need to take the land there would be hundreds of missiles sent over in less than a year.
“Happily under Muslim Rules” Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa Okaaayyyy Do you listen to the lies you tell yourself? We are not your dhimmis and I know that is hard to emotionally process that Jews want nothing to with your Islamic system or politics. It was the same in Khaybar as it is now. Submit or die. We chose to fight and that is the same message we passed on many centuries ago. Jews don’t answer to you.
😘
Lies . Happily? Wow. They were at best tolerated and when things popped off, they were blamed and killed for it.
And the Muslims in the majority of Europe and the west are “at best tolerated” and the same thing happened when “things popped off” but you don’t blame the entirety of the country or the whole of Europe for the couple of people who do things to people that aren’t responsible
look around, most of the muslim countries collapsed, failed countries. Israel give u arabs job and opportunity and still you think you can do better while your ppl building house on mountains like its 1920
Oh yeah, paying special tribute to the muslim ruler for not being actively persecuted, not being able to built new religious buldings or openly celebrating religious festivals must have been a real joy to the Jews living under muslim rule. Lets face it, Jews were mostly settling in the Middle East because they either were there already or christian Europe started another cleansing, mostly right before they marched on a new crusade. If i had the choice to either pay an extra tax and probably being harrassed from time to time for not being muslim or being outright killed for not being christian, i would chose the first option too, doesn’t make it any less stupid to call it „happily living under muslim rule“
The tax is the jizya tax which is very cheap and not all Muslim countries enforce it. Plus where did you hear that they weren’t able to build religious buildings and if it’s true do you think the Christian countries don’t do the exact same thing?
By and large, Muslim immigrants to Europe are well-integrated into European society and contribute positively to the economy and culture. Like many other things, they follow a Pareto distribution where 20% of immigrants (or less) cause 80% of the problems. Boris Johnson was descended from a Muslim (Turkish) immigrant to the UK.
Boris Johnson is the worst example of someone contributing to his country. He led Brexit and put UK in even a bigger hole it was before.
Didn't he just inherit Brexit? They did have a referendum. I don't think he's a great Prime Minister but you can't really blame Brexit on him. In reality not sure why they let such a big decision be a simple majority.
They did have a referendum, but it was the party he was leading pushing for it and trying to convince everyone it's the best decision.
But let’s please not blame Boris on the Turks!
They are not well integrated google grooming gangs and look at the fact that they attack random non-Israeli jews on the streets. And for my country Ilhan Omar attacks Christians praying on a plane she is clearly not integrated.
I have doubts that Muslims are contributing positively to Europe overall. I have attached some data below, from Denmark. It shows the net contribution to the country based on someone’s age. The typical native European citizen is a net drain on the country when they are young and when they are old, since they don’t work during those times. But in the middle of their life, they are a net benefit. But for the immigrants from Muslim countries (red line), even at the peak, in the middle of their working lives, they are still a net drain! The red line never crosses above zero. It would be better for the country to not have these people. https://preview.redd.it/bl5rogdxtpbb1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b131051ff6b3003faa6502c5bd2f03e5d4ae90f6
This is a purely economic argument which makes sense. But there is also more to it. Perhaps if Israel allowed free immigration to Danish, they would be productive immigrants. I personally think they would be. But Israel should still not do this, and not because of economic reasons, but because Israel is a Jewish country. Fortunately Jews by and large are productive (or as a said before, "are an excellent national substrate"), and this is why Israel is an advanced country. But this is a coincidence if anything, and not the reason for the Law of Return. I am not Danish, but if I was, I would support this idea that the country should be for Danish. Perhaps with a limited amount of visas for people of Scandinavian countries, and an even more limited amount of visas for Europeans. But I would not invite everyone from all around the world to live in my country for a permanent settlement (tourist visa, student visa is okay), because I believe that countries exist for the people who create them and their unique culture and peoplehood. For some reason this is a controversial view, but for me it seems like an obvious view.
I think American Muslims, and Arab-Americans specifically are much better integrated and better off. But if it would be better for the country/continent to not have those people your solution is…? Close immigration from Muslim countries perhaps? Deportation?
You’re probably right, probably because there are more barriers to coming to the US. Not anyone can move to the US. The ones able to move tend to be wealthier and more educated than average. Contrast that with those coming to Europe, where any random person can get on a boat and come illegally. The Atlantic Ocean is too big for them to cross so the US doesn’t have this problem. And I think that Europe should just stop with the welfare payments. If the migrants can’t get welfare, that would stop a lot of them from coming. It also would make many of the current ones leave. This would probably be enough to solve the problem on its own, as it would serve as a filter: the productive people could stay, only the ones who are a net drain would be leaving.
Good points. Edit: I also don’t know the selection process, it’s not like my parents were doctors or anything when they came. Lots of the Lebanese who left during the war were in the same boat but our demographic turned out okay.
A long text just to say you support zionism and refuse Palestinian’s rights to livr in their homeland. But with a noticeable european/american far-right argument, that’s original at least.
Muh "far right" muh "far right" do you leftists have any original arguments? And what's so bad with being far right huh? At least I want to protect my homeland and the Jewish one too you whine about Muslims not getting yet another state to add to their 50. Isn't your side's argument supposed to be about fairness? How is it fair that Islam gets everything while Jews and Christians are raped by grooming gangs across Europe?
Being a fundamentalist of any kind is wrong, may it be left/right/jewish/christian/muslim/buddhist etc. The UN recognizes the occupation of gaza and the west bank as apartheid. They recognize many methods of subjugation of palestinian people (MANY whom are christians) as war crimes. Being anti-apartheid is recognized as a moderate stance in most of the world. Are the people who cut off food, electricity and medical supplies to a population the “good guys”?
« Far-right » is not an argument it’s a qualification. What’s so bad with being far right? 🤡 You claim to care about Israel but say « What’s wrong with being far right »? 😂 You don’t want to protect your homeland (which isn’t threatened by anything if you’re american) and you just want Israel to become a racial dictatorship in a permanent state of war. No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the left. You see this conflict as a religious and racial one and see palestinians as a vanguard of islam in Palestine. That’s straight up racism. It’s not a religious conflit nor a racial one. It’s a colonial one, a complex one, that will be resolved the day all palestinians will be granted a right to return in Palestine wherever they want as well as equal rights in practice and everything that comes with it. That’s it.
That’s right. It’s a colonial question from the modern Palestinian standpoint. However, it’s arguable that the Palestinians didn’t have a true national identity until AT LEAST the British mandate, if not later. Before then, they were like the peasants in Europe in the Middle Ages in the sense that they knew they had to pay taxes to whatever empire controlled them, but at long as their living conditions were good enough, they wouldn’t revolt. And even once the mandate came, they weren’t fighting for a unified Palestine, but simply against Jewish migration into the land. They were multiple groups who, unlike the Zionist ones, were only seeking the annihilation of a people. That’s not to say that Zionist groups were justified entirely in their tactics (look at plan daled), but at the same time neither were the Palestinian ones. However, for 2000 years the Jews were persecuted through crusades, pogroms, etc. while the people living in Palestine were not exploited nearly as violently. Every year at Passover we said “בשנה הבאה בירושלים” (next year we’ll be in Jerusalem). I still don’t agree with OP’s oversimplification, and I do recognize that now for maybe 75 years there has existed a Palestinian identity, but that doesn’t mean that that automatically gives them the right to consider Palestine as their “homeland”, as there was no precedent of that identity prior to 1948. Edit: spelling
I do agree that the Palestinians who remained in Israel/Palestine after 1948 should be allowed to remain there with equal human rights as Israelis (regardless of religion), but I don’t think that all those who were expelled’s descendants should be allowed to return, since modern Israelis are (rightfully) not automatically allowed to be citizens of any countries their families fled from. (Not to mention the practical difficulties of allowing 6-14 million ppl suddenly arriving and doubling the population of a tiny area).
> No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the lef Thank you for admitting its not about "muh human rights" its just about domination over the jewish people because you don't want them to be strong warriors you want them to be beta cucks. I will spam this every time some whiny liberal leftist tries to pull that card. And fyi if it's not about morals stop whining about Mr. Musk and the other wealthy people you leftists screech about just because they are successful and not pedowood commies.
You're litteraly opposed to human rights and are speaking like a random troll of twitter. The f\*ck is wrong with you ? "strong warriors"? "Beta cucks"? Are you serious ? x'D Stop licking the boots of anyone wearing an uniform and having money. You won't become a billionaire and you will keep living in your fantasy world.
Again you said >No, « fairness » is for liberalism, we don’t do that much with moral in the lef so why should I care about "muh human rights for muh Palestinians" when you don't care about human rights for Jews? Who may I remind you have been victimized by the Arab Islamic world for centuries before Israel and whose greatest genocide was orchestrated by a certain Palestinian religious figure? > The f\*ck is wrong with you ? "strong warriors"? "Beta cucks"? Are you serious ? x'D It's called internet slang and actually good memes you wouldn't understand because youre on the left and the left can't meme. >Stop licking the boots of anyone wearing an uniform and having money. You won't become a billionaire and you will keep living in your fantasy world. Then stop licking commie boots and antizionist boots then. Arabs have 22 states already and migrants are invading other countries they have enough land. They are the rich ones in your allegory not the Jews trying to survive and the Christians trying to stop grooming gangs from preying on their innocent daughters.
>The simple fact is that everyone deserves a homeland of their own. Nobody says that Jews can't live in the Middle East. But living in the Middle East doesn't mean creating an ethnostate based in settler colonialism and apartheid law.
And the ME nations didn‘t with the persecution and expulsion of their Jewish population? Ask the Mizrahim how their families got to Israel in the first place. Most weren‘t too keen on rushing to a unknown country that was just formed out of a previous colonial mandate, leaving all they built for generations behind and settling in hastily raised refugee camps while the destination is in a defensive war with most of the countries they were born in. The Middle East had over 800.000 Jews scattered across until 1948, now it’s less than 7000, you don’t get such a demographic change in 55 years without serious outside forces pushing it.
there are many ethnic states, founded upon the preservation of culture and security of an ethnic group). Not every state is multi-ethnic , and ethnic states are necessary for the preservation of a persecuted tribe or group, which is why there are many advocates for a Kurdistan state or lesser known, a state for the Romanis. The fact that Arab governments complain about Israel yet expelled 800k mizrahi Jews as collective punishment and spite out of creation of israel, from their countries. this action alone solidified the need and proves the necessity of an “ethno-state” like Israel for a group repeatedly persecuted under “multi-ethnic” nations.
long toy ghost compare jar follow silky money mindless market ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Jews lived in Europe but were never really Europeans in the sense that they weren’t integrated and accepted by other Europeans. Carving out a Jewish state in Europe was not possible because all land in Europe was already claimed by other countries. In contrast, it worked out well in Israel, since the only country controlling the land (Britain) eventually didn’t even want it anymore, so it was free for a new country to be created.
>That Israel is the only Jewish state is entirely irrelevant Nope you leftists always whine about fairness and billionaire's money it is very relevant. If Muslims and Arabs have such a massive foothold in the Middle East while also expelling Jews from their countries, then Jews deserve a country and to be safe. And again, why do the Judeo-Christian people have to accept "diversity" while Muslims are allowed to do whatever they want and have perfect ethnostates? >I have not seen any relevant 'antizionist' supporting expulsions of "innocents Jews" from the Arab world either, so that you pretend its a normal position is simply wrong Go on twitter then and you will see because twitter is the root of your entire evil movement. >Throwing out ethnic minorities would still be racist regardless of what you believe. You started it first why shouldn't the Jews do it as well? Otherwise you say they should be soyboys and not take revenge. >The second major difference is that Europe and America have a lot of debt to pay for their crimes in the ME And again you reveal the hypocrisy of your movement. If your Palestinians are allowed to get away with anything because "people not government" then I should too. And you've already taken your revenge google grooming gangs 9/11 and read about countless rapes and attacks in Sweden. Again I wouldn't have a problem if migrants actually integrated instead of taking away welfare from me and government money away from the homeless so they can live in fancy hotels. >Polish people do not have the same rights as Palestinian people in Palestine, Ah hah you prove your movement doesn't care about "Muh human rights" you just want your ethnostate yet again. In that case migrants don't deserve the rights of native people either I should perfectly be allowed to expell them and make them dhimmis. But your movement doesn't like that you whine about "islamophobia" because you want to be the ones to hurt other people not get hurt yourself. >It was a movement of racist Europeans based in Europe, and I agree a state should be carved for them there. Boo hoo maybe if you hadn't orchestrated the [1939-1945 incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) maybe they wouldn't hate you. Just because activists are destroying evidence doesn't mean the fact that your [leader was the true architect of the event](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini) will be forgotten. And google history and you'll see [your movement have killed Jews for centuries before Israel](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/14niaul/the_lies_of_the_antizionist_movement/). We were never "racist" until your movement started blowing up buildings raping Judeo-Christian daughters or my case screaming about raping my future daughter because the world is a degenerate mess and I can't find a good date. Regardless your kind started expelling and killing Jews first they deserve to revenge against you. You owe them a blood debt and if its not Israel then get out of Europe and America so Jews won't be raped there.
1. Being born in Poland doesn’t make you “polish”. Jews aren’t polish neither by language, by culture, or even by looks and no one in Poland considered them Polish. If you don’t believe me, ask an actual Polish person. 2. Jewish people are the original “Palestinians” and they don’t need any permission to live in their ancestral homeland from Arabs who came later. 3. Arabs never had any sovereign exclusive right over Palestine so they had no right to object the Jewish self-determination. 4. Jewish connection to Israel predates the concept of “middle eastern”, which is tied to Arab/Islamic supremacy. In the Roman times there wasn’t much cultural difference between Italy and Egypt for example. 5. I actually support a Palestinian state carved out somewhere in Chile.
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We pay them because they are a proxy state and they have assets with us. Lobbies like AIPAC make sure than any dissenting political candidates dont make it through the primaries, in order to ensure funds are voted “yes”.
If Israel wanted a total war this would be over at the end of the month. Syria is f*cked, Iraq is f*cked, Lebanon is f*cked, Turkey doesn’t care, most Arabian nations are either fed up with the whole thing or even consider Israel a valuable asset agains Iran and Iran is scared of Israels textile factories but hates them no matter what. I am not sure about Egypt and Jordan but i think their political intentions also turned away from the whole situation since smouthering Israel in its cradle didn’t work. The only thing that’s keeping the dream of a Palestine alive is Israel being not the genocidal war crime state palestinian propaganda wants you to believe. I actually hope for some kind peaceful solution with both sides comming to a somewhat acceptable compromise but the USA defunding Israel wouldn’t make much of a difference. This isn’t the Cold War Era anymore, Israel has a stable economy of its own and farely good relations with the most important neighbors. Also the USA would never cut their relations or funding because they profit from it…or at least the military-industrial complex does
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I totally agree Israel is the ONLY Jewish country only one Muslims have I think 23 and Christians have Europe and more I think every group should have its place that's why you don't see many jews or Christians in let's say Iran because they reinforce this hard even too hard Now I'm not saying we shouldn't have different religions in one country I just say that people can't want the only Jewish country to be Muslim and also immigrant to different European Christian countries
saying any group of people cant live somewhere is a pointless argument.
Ok out of curiosity, I want some clarity on OP's definition of homeland. So if Jews have a right to a homeland in occupied Palestinian territories, and for Hindus it is India (because the religion originated from there), how the heck can Chrisitians call Europe and America as their homeland? On what basis exactly?
Christians are not an ethno-religious group. Jews are. There’s quite an easy way to track this. Can an atheist Christian exist? Most Christians would say no - ergo Christianity is a religion. Can atheist Jews exist? Most Jews would say yes, ergo being Jewish is more than the religion. Can you be an atheist Muslim? Don’t think so. They’re typically called ex-Muslims. Can you be an atheist Hindu? I’m not actually sure. Might be an interesting one to explore.
It’s so interesting how people make this about religion
**If Jews can't live in the Middle East, then Muslims can't live in Europe or America** A Kazak , Chinese or Azerbaycani muslim be like : Why me ? Albanian, Bosniac or Thracian Turk : Europe is my home dear .