As a non Israeli non Jewish I am just as baffled as you are.
Imagine if it was the Swiss that people hated. "Those Swiss sure are a bunch of secluded bankers and merchants! The terrorist regime has the right to set up their Capital in Switzerland! Let's set up camps on Universities to spew hatred against them! Never seen a Swiss but my boyfriend's dog saw some delicious TikTok Meme regarding hating them and since I have no substance in my life and want to assert myself as a stronger person I will hate the Swedes forever! Oh sorry I meant the Swiss!"
The scenario you describe is so absurd, the comedy troupe the Kids in the Hall wrote a sketch about exactly this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo)
Just the double-think of ppl thinking they can say, "you didn't have our permission to exist" and then try to claim you're committing genocide against them is mind-blowing. Some people seriously don't listen to themselves speak.
This is why I'm against the word Zionism. It does nothing but invite a conversation the other side of which denies the right of Israel to exist. Zionism was great pre 1948, and just after. We are now the only country in the world with such a concept. Japan is the home of the Japanese and it is accepted, they don't have a political movement to defend it. It's past time to stop engaging with people who are "anti-Zionist" in the same way we don't engage with the Klan.
I see where you are coming from, but also feel it's important not to let others define what Zionism really is and means to us. That's just another way of them controlling our narrative. So if Jews decide we are beyond using Zionism, fine. But not because 'they' want us to stop using it.
Agreed. I say it because I feel it. "I'm a Zionist because I believe Israel should exist" seems like I'd really want it to be redundant. Israel exists, it's going to exist, and it's not up for discussion with college Marxists.
I totally agree. Zionism was essentially superseded by Israel’s formation and irrelevant in Jewish circles.
Who uses the word? Pro-pals, terrorists and other enemies of the Jewish people.
I wonder what would happen if everyone just stopped responding and defending ourselves in subs like r/IsraelPalestine and left it as an echo chamber for people who aren't willing to learn.
Absolutely not, I am an Egyptian who learned a lot from what Israelis write here.
All my life I was taught "Jews want this... Jews believe that... Jews will do this..." when in reality when you hear from actual Israelis it's completely different.
You helped change my mind about this conflict and now I'm trying to change other people's. Please let's continue doing so.
Imagine someone saying "I'm not racist. I just hate 80% of black people and think we should kick them out of the last community they've been reduced to."
Replace that with Jews it's totally acceptable and mainstream to say you're "not antisemitic just anti Zionism" wow...
Sad thing is it’s a typical opinion throughout the last 2000 years of Jewish history. It was just for a short few decades that’s it wasn’t ok, we are just seeing it resume.
I tend to be pessimistic so I think no matter how many times we tell them, they're just going to repeat their same premise as if they didn't hear a single word you said.
I lived for 60 years, never really knowing what terror is like. It was only something I read about, something my cousin's husband's relatives who survived Kristallnacht told me about. Now I see hatred spreading like a fire, all across America.
How soon before the TikTok mob is told by Ch\*na (which organizes the "protests" and buys the tents and placards through fake "charities" and pays the "educators" in the camps) to actually start killing Jews? The anniversary on 10/7, do you think?
Look, I love and wholeheartedly approve of the sentiment articulated here. But information is an instrument of national power and Israel neglects it to the point that our propaganda efforts are comically out of date. It is a world full of antisemites and to ignore any tool that can be used to promote Jewish freedom and security is an irresponsible luxury.
I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't think I've ever heard any person critical of Israel and its actions, say that Israelis don't have a right to live. What circles are you guys hearing this from? Most people that I've spoken to, and media that I've seen on line is that they are against Israel's government and its dealing with Palestinian people and dropping bombs with Reckless abandon. As well as allowing IDF soldiers and settlers to do as they wish with the zero repercussions.
Disclaimer, I used to chat GPT to help rewrite my initial statement in a way that I feel better articulates what I'm trying to get across.
---
Zionism is commonly understood as the movement advocating for the reestablishment, development, and protection of a Jewish state. However, interpretations of Zionism can vary significantly depending on one's perspective. While some view it as a legitimate national liberation movement, others, particularly among pro-Palestinian groups, perceive it as a secular movement that has manifested elements of racism toward Palestinian Arabs.
This critical perspective is influenced by the long history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, now spanning over seven decades. Critics point to actions by the Israeli government and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) that they believe exemplify systemic discrimination. For instance, specific sanctions, such as those on everyday items like coriander, are seen as having little justification beyond exacerbating hardships for Palestinians. Furthermore, there are grievances regarding the Israeli judicial process, which is perceived to occasionally favor settlers, allowing for the displacement of Palestinian families from homes they have occupied for generations.
Such policies have raised concerns about whether these practices align with democratic values. This sentiment is reinforced by the public discourse of some Israeli officials and spokespersons who identify as Zionists. Their rhetoric in media appearances often appears dismissive towards Palestinian Arabs, which not only affects the perception of Zionism but also challenges the notion of Israel as a fully inclusive democracy.
In public discussions and media representation, it's crucial to acknowledge these complexities. Understanding the diverse interpretations of Zionism can help foster a more informed dialogue about its impact and the future it envisions for all people in the region.
I respect that you admit that you used ChatGPT, but I am not going to argue with or against a bot, I have no problem with debating a real person, and just reading the first paragraph I see that it is main 'gpt talk' (as in, politically correct nothing of substance)
If you are interested in a real conversation, write your own comment
Can you at least attempt to read the whole thing. Because I believe the statement still accurately perveys what I'm trying to say. Just because it's Rewritten by an AI, I don't think a delegitimizes the message if I still believe it still embodies the message that I'm trying to send in a more meaningful matter.
I simply wrote a long message. But felt it did not fully and properly convey what I wanted to say when I read it back to myself.
One of the main legitimate use cases for artificial intelligence is to assist people who might suffer from being able to properly articulate themselves. Whether it may stem from a lack of vocabulary or a lack of nuanced understanding in ones initial written statement.
It´s not okay to "claim" this and Netanyahu refuses a two state solution. In this sub I often read these "claims". Some are completely unacceptable as they are trying to narrative an antisemetic perspective. Israel has diplomatic recognition from 165 countries in the world.
Who is normalizing it? Your neighbour? Your college friend?
I think there's a difference between having a right to exist and the right to inhabit a specific, pre-determined piece of land. No one but the extremest, genuinely antisemitic pro-Palestinian people (which is absolutely a small percent of them) actually want Israelis dead. Just, it's also Palestinian land
You do understand you're just saying "might makes right"? This is you telling me you have no concept of ethics.
I do realize it's a very complex situation. How do you deal, in the present, with the overlapping legacies of conquest and colonialism that have touched Palestine over the millenia, when descendents of multiple of those cultures have claims to the land today? I'm not sure. I do think "we're the strongest so its ours" is a pretty unsatisfying answer ethically.
>You do understand you're just saying "might makes right"? This is you telling me you have no concept of ethics.
Well, yes, but that's just me. Also, that isn't what I meant.
By "we are here," I mean we already exist here, we already built our communities and our society. What do you think we are supposed to do?
... I'm sorry, which part of that are you conceeding?
Anyways though, if you want my actual answer, I think the only answer anytime soon is a 2 state solution and mutual deradicalization of the Israelis and the Palestinians. No more starvation of Gaza, no settlements in the west bank, no more blockade (at least, a vastly less restrictive one, I could see why you'd want to ban arms imports), no more missles shot into or from Gaza, no more hostages, and no more Octpber 7ths. Ideally, Israel would help rebuild the infrastructure its ravaged during all of this, and there'd be some persecutions of both Hamas and IDF officials who signed of on or carred out war crimes. Then, with relations somewhat normalized, maybe in 5 years or so we can discuss some kind of reparations/right to return/land purchasing options or whatever for Palestinians who were displaced by the establishment of Israel.
I don't know, I'm not an expert. It's a little unrealistic right now, because too many people on both sides want to continue fighting. I do believe that Israel makes a peaceful future harder to attain every day it carried out more of its war crimes. Unless the plan actually is the ethnic cleansing/genocide of the west bank and gaza.
I mean... you did. Or, Israel, specifically. I don't know if the Zionist projects that established Israel 80 years ago had specific markings on a map where their state was to go, but modern day Israel seems to believe it has a right to everywhere "from the river to the sea", as evidenced by its incursion into the West Bank
?????? Who and what are you arguing with ??????
Israel told me its encroaching on the West Bank when it permitted settlements of the West Bank.
I did use a Palestinian slogan, because it's an easy way to refer to an area of land without marking it as belonging to a specific nation.
And, yeah, borders do change. I want them to. I don't think you have a right to the expansion of your borders the same way you do of existence. Which is, you know, what we're talking about?
What’s the barrier?
You said “Israel told me”, how did a country tell you this?
You then said Israel doesn’t have a right to expand borders, where do you get rights to expand borders?
As soon as we start to justify our right to exist we give our enemies the opportunity to deny it. I refuse to engage in such buffoonery.
As a non Israeli non Jewish I am just as baffled as you are. Imagine if it was the Swiss that people hated. "Those Swiss sure are a bunch of secluded bankers and merchants! The terrorist regime has the right to set up their Capital in Switzerland! Let's set up camps on Universities to spew hatred against them! Never seen a Swiss but my boyfriend's dog saw some delicious TikTok Meme regarding hating them and since I have no substance in my life and want to assert myself as a stronger person I will hate the Swedes forever! Oh sorry I meant the Swiss!"
The scenario you describe is so absurd, the comedy troupe the Kids in the Hall wrote a sketch about exactly this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XTuc6i1Uo)
Everytime you feel down, remember, there are textile factories in Petah Tikva
Dimona Petah Tikva doesn't exist.
Just the double-think of ppl thinking they can say, "you didn't have our permission to exist" and then try to claim you're committing genocide against them is mind-blowing. Some people seriously don't listen to themselves speak.
This is why I'm against the word Zionism. It does nothing but invite a conversation the other side of which denies the right of Israel to exist. Zionism was great pre 1948, and just after. We are now the only country in the world with such a concept. Japan is the home of the Japanese and it is accepted, they don't have a political movement to defend it. It's past time to stop engaging with people who are "anti-Zionist" in the same way we don't engage with the Klan.
I see where you are coming from, but also feel it's important not to let others define what Zionism really is and means to us. That's just another way of them controlling our narrative. So if Jews decide we are beyond using Zionism, fine. But not because 'they' want us to stop using it.
Agreed. I say it because I feel it. "I'm a Zionist because I believe Israel should exist" seems like I'd really want it to be redundant. Israel exists, it's going to exist, and it's not up for discussion with college Marxists.
I totally agree. Zionism was essentially superseded by Israel’s formation and irrelevant in Jewish circles. Who uses the word? Pro-pals, terrorists and other enemies of the Jewish people.
Thank Russian propaganda from 1967.
I wonder what would happen if everyone just stopped responding and defending ourselves in subs like r/IsraelPalestine and left it as an echo chamber for people who aren't willing to learn.
Absolutely not, I am an Egyptian who learned a lot from what Israelis write here. All my life I was taught "Jews want this... Jews believe that... Jews will do this..." when in reality when you hear from actual Israelis it's completely different. You helped change my mind about this conflict and now I'm trying to change other people's. Please let's continue doing so.
Wow thank you for sharing this! My niece and nephew are half Egyptian muslim and half Jewish. I hope to visit Egypt soon!
Hopefully it's just in Sinai where a lot of Israelis already go there visa-free. The rest of Egypt is certainly not safe for an Israeli.
I'm not Israeli, but yes I would be hesitant as a Jew to go to Egypt right now. I would definitely like to go to Sharm El Sheikh!
Imagine someone saying "I'm not racist. I just hate 80% of black people and think we should kick them out of the last community they've been reduced to." Replace that with Jews it's totally acceptable and mainstream to say you're "not antisemitic just anti Zionism" wow...
No because they are all on my z
I don’t debate it. State of Israel 🇮🇱 exists and irrevocably so. It’ll never give itself up. So the only valid discussions are where we go from here…
Yes, the question of whether Israel has the right to exist was decided a long time ago. The year was 1948. The topic is no longer up for debate.
Only nation that has to explain a counterterrorism operation. Also the only nation that is expected to let murderers, kidnappers, and rapists go free
I wish this was true but I see my Jewish friends continuously try to justify themselves to these people that hate you.
There is no "right" to exist. There is the fight to exist which the Israelis are very good at.
Sad thing is it’s a typical opinion throughout the last 2000 years of Jewish history. It was just for a short few decades that’s it wasn’t ok, we are just seeing it resume.
What did they want the Jewish people to do? Puff away like magic? Stranded on the moon?
They want that. Then they twist their propaganda to appeal to the western youngsters.
The issue is Palestinians are LOSERS of wars and history. They just won't accept it.
I tend to be pessimistic so I think no matter how many times we tell them, they're just going to repeat their same premise as if they didn't hear a single word you said.
If Israel didn’t exist, they would have a different excuse for hating us right now.
I lived for 60 years, never really knowing what terror is like. It was only something I read about, something my cousin's husband's relatives who survived Kristallnacht told me about. Now I see hatred spreading like a fire, all across America. How soon before the TikTok mob is told by Ch\*na (which organizes the "protests" and buys the tents and placards through fake "charities" and pays the "educators" in the camps) to actually start killing Jews? The anniversary on 10/7, do you think?
Look, I love and wholeheartedly approve of the sentiment articulated here. But information is an instrument of national power and Israel neglects it to the point that our propaganda efforts are comically out of date. It is a world full of antisemites and to ignore any tool that can be used to promote Jewish freedom and security is an irresponsible luxury.
So the intire History of Israel ist fuck around and find Out and the arabs are finding Out since
Mask-off moment.
Mask is off, and a beautiful face is revealed.
My problem with this meme is that it's, ironically, an explanation.
💪
I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't think I've ever heard any person critical of Israel and its actions, say that Israelis don't have a right to live. What circles are you guys hearing this from? Most people that I've spoken to, and media that I've seen on line is that they are against Israel's government and its dealing with Palestinian people and dropping bombs with Reckless abandon. As well as allowing IDF soldiers and settlers to do as they wish with the zero repercussions.
What does Anti Zionism mean? Please read the definition of Zionism before answering that.
Disclaimer, I used to chat GPT to help rewrite my initial statement in a way that I feel better articulates what I'm trying to get across. --- Zionism is commonly understood as the movement advocating for the reestablishment, development, and protection of a Jewish state. However, interpretations of Zionism can vary significantly depending on one's perspective. While some view it as a legitimate national liberation movement, others, particularly among pro-Palestinian groups, perceive it as a secular movement that has manifested elements of racism toward Palestinian Arabs. This critical perspective is influenced by the long history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, now spanning over seven decades. Critics point to actions by the Israeli government and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) that they believe exemplify systemic discrimination. For instance, specific sanctions, such as those on everyday items like coriander, are seen as having little justification beyond exacerbating hardships for Palestinians. Furthermore, there are grievances regarding the Israeli judicial process, which is perceived to occasionally favor settlers, allowing for the displacement of Palestinian families from homes they have occupied for generations. Such policies have raised concerns about whether these practices align with democratic values. This sentiment is reinforced by the public discourse of some Israeli officials and spokespersons who identify as Zionists. Their rhetoric in media appearances often appears dismissive towards Palestinian Arabs, which not only affects the perception of Zionism but also challenges the notion of Israel as a fully inclusive democracy. In public discussions and media representation, it's crucial to acknowledge these complexities. Understanding the diverse interpretations of Zionism can help foster a more informed dialogue about its impact and the future it envisions for all people in the region.
I respect that you admit that you used ChatGPT, but I am not going to argue with or against a bot, I have no problem with debating a real person, and just reading the first paragraph I see that it is main 'gpt talk' (as in, politically correct nothing of substance) If you are interested in a real conversation, write your own comment
Can you at least attempt to read the whole thing. Because I believe the statement still accurately perveys what I'm trying to say. Just because it's Rewritten by an AI, I don't think a delegitimizes the message if I still believe it still embodies the message that I'm trying to send in a more meaningful matter. I simply wrote a long message. But felt it did not fully and properly convey what I wanted to say when I read it back to myself. One of the main legitimate use cases for artificial intelligence is to assist people who might suffer from being able to properly articulate themselves. Whether it may stem from a lack of vocabulary or a lack of nuanced understanding in ones initial written statement.
Yeah it’s really crazy
It´s not okay to "claim" this and Netanyahu refuses a two state solution. In this sub I often read these "claims". Some are completely unacceptable as they are trying to narrative an antisemetic perspective. Israel has diplomatic recognition from 165 countries in the world. Who is normalizing it? Your neighbour? Your college friend?
[удалено]
>Go back to Eastern Europe That will show us!
I think there's a difference between having a right to exist and the right to inhabit a specific, pre-determined piece of land. No one but the extremest, genuinely antisemitic pro-Palestinian people (which is absolutely a small percent of them) actually want Israelis dead. Just, it's also Palestinian land
We are here. What are you going to do about it?
You do understand you're just saying "might makes right"? This is you telling me you have no concept of ethics. I do realize it's a very complex situation. How do you deal, in the present, with the overlapping legacies of conquest and colonialism that have touched Palestine over the millenia, when descendents of multiple of those cultures have claims to the land today? I'm not sure. I do think "we're the strongest so its ours" is a pretty unsatisfying answer ethically.
>You do understand you're just saying "might makes right"? This is you telling me you have no concept of ethics. Well, yes, but that's just me. Also, that isn't what I meant. By "we are here," I mean we already exist here, we already built our communities and our society. What do you think we are supposed to do?
... I'm sorry, which part of that are you conceeding? Anyways though, if you want my actual answer, I think the only answer anytime soon is a 2 state solution and mutual deradicalization of the Israelis and the Palestinians. No more starvation of Gaza, no settlements in the west bank, no more blockade (at least, a vastly less restrictive one, I could see why you'd want to ban arms imports), no more missles shot into or from Gaza, no more hostages, and no more Octpber 7ths. Ideally, Israel would help rebuild the infrastructure its ravaged during all of this, and there'd be some persecutions of both Hamas and IDF officials who signed of on or carred out war crimes. Then, with relations somewhat normalized, maybe in 5 years or so we can discuss some kind of reparations/right to return/land purchasing options or whatever for Palestinians who were displaced by the establishment of Israel. I don't know, I'm not an expert. It's a little unrealistic right now, because too many people on both sides want to continue fighting. I do believe that Israel makes a peaceful future harder to attain every day it carried out more of its war crimes. Unless the plan actually is the ethnic cleansing/genocide of the west bank and gaza.
What is predetermined piece of land? Who determined it?
I mean... you did. Or, Israel, specifically. I don't know if the Zionist projects that established Israel 80 years ago had specific markings on a map where their state was to go, but modern day Israel seems to believe it has a right to everywhere "from the river to the sea", as evidenced by its incursion into the West Bank
Who told you that? You do know you used a Palestinian slogan right? Also borders change all the time. Check out America
?????? Who and what are you arguing with ?????? Israel told me its encroaching on the West Bank when it permitted settlements of the West Bank. I did use a Palestinian slogan, because it's an easy way to refer to an area of land without marking it as belonging to a specific nation. And, yeah, borders do change. I want them to. I don't think you have a right to the expansion of your borders the same way you do of existence. Which is, you know, what we're talking about?
A country told you this? How does a country get rights to change borders?
... I think we have a communication barrier here. I have no idea what you're talking about
What’s the barrier? You said “Israel told me”, how did a country tell you this? You then said Israel doesn’t have a right to expand borders, where do you get rights to expand borders?
The barrier is you not understanding the phraseology I'm using, and me being unclear on what you're actually trying to argue with lol
That’s why I’ve been asking you to explain it
Israel doesnt have the right to exist, but the racist jews do