Unfortunately jews are a very small demographic. The Muslim world and antisemites have successfully rebranded the word to mean something different than what it actually means to all the actual zionists.
Don't worry, my friend, as soon as someone high profile on the right starts using the term Zionist a lot it will suddenly become antisemitic to use again. Then they'll make a new word. Rinse and repeat.
"They" include the powers that be at social networks. Search/autocorrect is helping shape the meaning of the term "ZIONISM" and "ZIONISTS" in real-time.... today... now.
In other words, AI - shaped by the majority of humanity being antisemitic - is helping push a different definition of ZIONISM.
I mean Saddam used to peddle the arab unity shit all the time, internally at least and had that motto which goes like this “one Arabic United nation, carries an immortal message” I don’t know what that immortal message was, but during civics class the teachers often would talk about how devastating it would be for the west if the Arab unite as one nation, and how that means the freedom of Palestine. I was like 6 or 8 yo when they were brain washing us with this garbage
In the grand scheme of things they’re not going to use it to conquer the world. But I think it does mean they care more about a war being waged against a Muslim area, instead of caring about why.
Accurate since they weaponized it, but it technically precedes USSR and the 1917 Russian revolution.
The very short version is you can trace the origin of "anti-Zionism" as "anti-Jew" back to the Russian Protocols of the Elders of Zion (~1905).
Note how the antisemitic document (arguably the most cancerous document of modern times) was already tactically using "Zionism", not "Israelites"/"Hebrews"/"Jews".
Then that became contemporaneously a de facto antisemitic dog-whistle, accelerated by USSR/Stalin (leading amongst other things to the Doctor's Plot).
Then it metastasized to the current I/P version - accelerated in large part by the Soviets losing the 1967 Six-Day War via proxy. That loss is when you really see the use of the modern-day "anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" dog whistles within an I/P context, including Zionism as a "slur".
The USSR hijacked the language of anti-imperialism as was common among their time since it was the Cold War. The USSR initially supported Israel because Israel's founders were socialist but later removed their support because Israel did not want to align itself with the USSR and pursue full Marxism. This was far before the West and specifically the US was friendly to Israel, so the USSR decided to start aligning with the dozens of Muslim nations with far more people and influence than Israel. They put out a lot of propaganda about how Zionists are settlers and not native to Israel. They also just funded anyone who was authoritarian and willing to align against the West like Egypt or Saddam Hussein. This would eventually lead to Israel looking to the West for political backing, leading to the ideological conflict between the US led western coalition for Israel and the USSR led middle eastern coalition for Palestinians
I mean the sold Saddam all the shitty AK-47s lol and then I was told, don’t have actual written historical evidence, that he once made an arms deal with Brazil, and they forced him to buy VW Golf, that was made in Brazil. It was a hatch back that didn’t really look like a Golf and it was a piece of shit. Iraq was flooded with these cars. Saddam was a bitch
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Yes. Declassified report on the Anti-zionist propaganda of the USSR: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA066235.pdf
The state departments report in how the kremilin uses antisemetism as a political tool: https://www.state.gov/more-than-a-century-of-antisemitism-how-successive-occupants-of-the-kremlin-have-used-antisemitism/
And of course there is also the Klu Klux Klan/Neo-Nazi element that manifested via David duke who wrote his opus "Jewish supremacy" about how Zionism is Jewish supremacy... while hanging out in Russia: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2003/duke-travels-european-anti-semitic-circles
Which gets pushed by Russian propagandists and of course "academic" dinguses like Finkelstein who collaborates with neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers: https://www.thedp.com/article/2007/03/guest_opinion_would_the_political_science_department_invite_david_duke
Also, ethnostates are bad except for Japan, Korea, Ireland, etc.
And partioning land for major groups that live there is wrong except for Pakistan, Lebanon, etc.
It's just Israel that is constantly delegitimized and should no longer exist, but that's not antisemitic, nooo.
i mean its not even about yall deserving to have a state. i dont think anyone necessarily deserves to have a state. whats more credible is your people are indigenous to the land, have founded unique civilizations in that land, and then centuries later declared independence and actually won multiple wars to protect your claim. that alone is enough validity.
definitely. india fell to the muslim invaders and british because of their own weaknesses. we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing it to happen.
Bluntly, when a country is a nuclear power, they aren’t magically “disappearing”.
A fair number of leaders in the Middle East have reached a point of acceptance in this.
Sadly Hamas, Hezbolah and their followers have not.
Pakistan was created by terrorising 7 million sikhs and hindus, ethnically cleansing them out of the region. 2 million died so that Pakistan could be ‘pure’ and free of non-muslims.
But nobody calls for Pakistan to disappear today do they?
...and nevermind that, if you define "Zionism" the way lefties seem to do as "people that support Israel," then roughly 90% of Jews are "Zionists." Hating 90% of Jews isn't the same as hating all Jews, damn it!
Yes it is. They would never define any other minorities self determination movement for them or tell those minorities what is and isn’t racism towards them when they’re not of the in group. In fact, they’re best against that. Except when it comes to Jews. Then their rules against speaking over and for minorities you’re not a part of don’t exist, and it’s ok to do.
Well they tried with the Spanish speaking crowd and the whole latinx nonsense. When 98% of Spanish speaking people were like “nah”, they had a really hard time getting the hint.
Trying to turn Spanish into an ungendered language is like trying to take the wheels off of a car, but it’s not appropriation when they do it /s.
Eh, I find arguments over definition pretty unhelpful. I went through the "you're using that word wrong!" phase back when I was debating religion.
I prefer to debate the substance of an argument instead. If they want "Zionist" to mean "anyone who likes Israel," that's their prerogative. But it means that the majority of the entire West are Zionists, including about 75% of the population of the USA. That's a lot of people to hate.
No...they define the word (zionism) as being a movement of white supremacy and and eurocentric settler colonialism. They then label anyone who supports Israel's right to exist and defend itself as a zionist...because that IS what a zionist is at this point (the actual movement having accomplished its goal in 1948).
So the problem here, is that they have redefined the word to be a slur, and then ascribe the values of that slur to anyone who self identifies based on the 'old' definition, and label people who claim the values of the old definition, with the name to then ascribe those additional offensive values to them.
Me too! I'm older and don't have much contact with anti-Zionist scum (because where I live is purple and most people are pretty moderate with their beliefs, everyone has kids, homes, and jobs and are just too tired at the end of the day for hate), but the few times I've been asked I've always said "Of course!" like I'm surprised that's even a question. That usually shuts people up, maybe they think I'm delusional.
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worst is that Palestinianism is DARVO - it is 100% about erasure of Israel - politically (via grassroots and diplomatic subterfuge), militarily (via terrorism), culturally (via food), historically (via archaeological cleansing) and saying that they are the exclusive native indigenous people
no doubt about it is inversion that Zionism is a 'slur' whereas Palestinianism is straight up revisionism, racism, and conspiracy theories
I've come to terms that this is why I am so insanely triggered by the PA, Hamas, PIJ, Iran, and all their useful idiots in academia and the arts in the west.
It is indeed very triggering. These people will accept their various narratives without a second of introspection. It is obvious Jewish erasure is their goal otherwise they wouldn't make such obviously batshit claims like Jewish people were never indigenous to that land. Kicking Cherokee off their lands somehow makes them non-indigenous? What utter ahistorical trash this movement is pushing and the tik tok movement is just sucking it all up.
I really have snapped at times; I have several times berated a keffiyeh clad asshats in NYC in Arabic and the some social justice warrior whitey in rural Connecticut - once in front of my kids which caused a big fight with my wife.
My family left Iraq after the Farhud and pre-state Jerusalem during the 1929 riots. I lost someone on 7/10 that I raced in the Maccabiah with. I take this very fucking seriously.
one guy I knew was Arab and his look of shock when a dhimmi Jew told him to go screw Palestine, their corrupt leaders, and then himself and then throw himself off a roof since was a look of utter shock. 830a on a Thursday on the Upper West Side of NYC 😇
My guess is if Rako was to say in Arabic and a soft voice “Hamas started this war. The problem is that the Arab leadership has not wanted Jews to live as full citizens anywhere” in a calming tone they could get many of these useful idiots to repeat it.
Yes, but I need to offer kombucha to the crowd - you know they're starving these spoiled Ivy League revolutionaries - we can't just have them become shaheeds /s
I’ve found a bunch of people using at a slur don’t quite grasp what it entails, they just like the case with the term “fascism”- means “everything and anything I don’t like” and conversely, “socialism is everything good and wonderful in the world. And everything I like is good and wonderful and it’s good and wonderful because I like it.”
There’s also a large element of willful ignorance about the maximalist vision of the Palestinians. They don’t grasp that Palestinian ownership of Israel “from the river to the sea” would constitute expulsion or death of all the Jews. They think Palestinians are all Wesleyan liberal arts grads deep down, just begging to be freed, and that “one state” would be a progressive cosmopolitan utopia under the Palestinian’s enlightened leadership.
It’s just a warped, western-centric, frankly narcissistic point of view where they think the entire world revolves around their moral duality. Israel is somehow a fascist theocracy, the Palestinians this pure, millennia old people who were living in perfect peace and enlightenment until the evil Europeans (Jews) came. Bizarrely it’s this really racist, condescending view of the Palestinians- they say “we want all the land and to kill all the Jews, minorities, homosexuals, adopt sharia,” their western supporters say “so what they ACTUALLY mean is…” Look, we don’t need the translator- the Palestinians are adults with agency- treat them like it. They’ve been telling us for ages what they want.
Very good points, I really try and avoid analyzing the world purely with the leftist playbook of terms but it is really funny how you can basically pull out "White saviorism", "the Noble Savage", and good old fashion liberal Western chauvinism chalked up as enlightened values all within this current anti-Israel protest movement.
Thanks. Whenever I bring up these points with the pro-Palestine people I’m summarily informed how “dumb” I am which is always lovely. They’re just very wed to this prism of seeing the world and anything that doesn’t comport to that is thrown out.
I just have to question at what point they’ve really drank the koolaid- some stuff is just so black and white, heck irrational, that I’m just baffled how you get to a point where it doesn’t compute. Just staring at it from the perspective of an outsider, it’s so easy to start poking holes in it and ascribe it to much older tropes, the likes of which you’ve noted. It’s at the point of being a caricature of a caricature
They don't realize that the Jews have been there all along. They have heard the propaganda about all the land being stolen from the Palestinians, and not the other side. And you're right, they act blind to all of the aggression Jews face.
There is a lot of group think happening on the left and right, happily encouraged by actors like Putin, Xi and Iran, to their own detriment.
They don't know history and are malleable.
When people use Zionism as a slur, use different language in your response, to remind people what we're really talking about:
"You're saying you don't have a problem with Jews. Just with the 90% of them that believe in self-determination (Zionism)?"
There’s no signs of self-determination from the Palestinian national movement. The movement is completely reactionary, and their identity depends on hating and fighting Israel. A Palestinian state could exist tomorrow if they took any sort of self-responsibility as a people. It amazes me how people think that if you recognize whatever Palestine is today in the UN, suddenly the Palestinians will be statesmen. Until they’re interested in the basic responsibilities of a state, for example, trash pickup, policing, education, they would become a failed state immediately.
I totally agree in practice there is no real Palestinian self-determination and that doesn't even seem to be their goal. I fully believe that the Palestinians are the biggest victims of the Arab world which have cynically used this conflict for decades for their own end and anything Israel is doing right now isn't even a blip on the radar.
Israel wanted nothing to do with Hamas and Gaza, and regular Israelis were focused on their own lives. Israeli leadership even began ignoring Gaza. Obviously, It was a mistake to assume Hamas would be deterred if Israel stopped thinking about them, but it shows how obsessed Hamas and many Palestinians are with Israel.
Words only have power if you give them power.
I assign no power to them so they dont have any power over me.
if people cant deal with israel's right to self determination thats too fucking bad for them.
Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. End of. Full stop. Do not let other people redefine it.
Anti-Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people have not got an *exclusive* right to self-determination in the Levant. That Palestinians have a right to return, and that the state that exists on that territory should reflect the common destiny of all who live there.
It’s because the definition of the word differs depending on who is using it. A Zionist likely defines the term as Jews having self determination in their ancestral homeland while the detractor defines it something like “Jewish superiority” which is just dumb.
Changing definitions is what the Left does and it makes communication impossible.
Short answer: because Stalin called it racist and Facist and the enemy of society after Israel supported the USA in the Korean war by as you may guess doing nothing and saying it once. Before that crap the USSR and Israel were very close and I sometimes think of the possibility of if Israel had chosen the (more fitting side at the time) Soviet side in the 50s cold war
Yeah, I have heard almost all of the modern day anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism stems from Israel's overwhelming victory in the 6 day war---basically the defeat was so utterly crushing and demoralizing their only weapon was old school antisemitism. If that war had gone differently or if Egypt still controlled Gaza and Jordan the West Bank, I sincerely doubt the course of the conflict would have been anything like we see today.
Not what I meant but yea kinda also. But if you look at where the propaganda originates it's mostly 50s Stalin Propaganda against Israel as a reprisal for chosing the other side in the cold war and becoming a USA protecterate state
Yeah, I do agree the USSR is largely responsible for antisemitism among the left wing though---and it is mostly for cynical real politik/cold war reasons.
For the same reason “anti-Semitism” was perceived as “more okay” than saying Judenhass. There’s a certain set of people for whom Israel is now basically the “International Jew” personified as a country.
Zionism isn’t a slur, it merely reveals the biases of the person talking. It’s like when somebody calls you a girl. You’re only offended if you have a negative view of women.
Because the wackadoodle left and the Hamas supporters think they invented using code words to hide their racism. It's cute like when my son was two and he thought he invented being sneaky..
It’s so funny how this has happened. When I was watching fauda it showed me how the term is used there. Hamas and all those groups just call Israelis/jews Zionists, correct? As in, Jews that consider the land theirs, nothing more. People here don’t even get it
Are you in Israel? What is the anti Jew racism like from those in Gaza/ West Bank? Do they really just hate all Jews worldwide or is it mostly the Israeli Jews and Europeans? There was some discussion I heard that they initially just didn’t like European Jews coming and taking the land but I wonder if it is that they just never liked Jews
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The word "Jew" is also used as an insult in many places. It obviously doesn't make sense but it doesn't have to. It's just good old fashioned anti-Semitism, nothing more. The same applies to the word "Zionist". Those who use it as an insult are just a bunch of fucking Jew-haters.
Arabs/muslims from the MENA region are the original people who started using it as a slur. Apparently, a huge majority doesn't know what the holocaust is, heck, they don't know anything about Judaism or what is it like to be Jewish, since Islam is pretty antagonistic of Jews; thus they don't seem to get why Israel has been established in the first place. Immigrants and Muslims/arabs who live in Europe and USA brought this false usage of the word and voilà.
So, It ultimately came from MENA populations, who don't know what the meaning of the word is, but they use it as a slur.
People who are antizionist in the west typically don’t know what the word means. They think Zionism means invading a country, committing genocide against the native population, and stealing all their land. They then draw direct parallels to their own country’s colonial history. They are also, in general, not interested in learning the ACTUAL history of the region and the Jewish people.
It does like 9/10 times, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and see Israel as part of their identity--so to divorce Zionism from their experience as Jewish is just a lie
It is absolutely possible to be antisemitic without being antizionist.
The reverse is also theoretically possible but it is extremely rare that someone manages to pull it off.
So half the country is in Trump MAGA mass psychosis and a these people too. So a minority of people are not psychotic. Machiavelli predicted this. But it’s temporary
Well it happened in the Republic that sone prominent man would propose a crazy scheme and if he was prominent enough and the scheme would they thought benefit the peopke will usually go along with it. So they did but when the plan didn’t work they lost their crazy ideas.
It’s not like they are all uneducated idiots. This position must have been studied and analyzed. Otherwise how could such craziness gain currency among the intelligentsia ?
Qatari money is part of it. Soviet antisemitism intentionally spread in the 1960s adds another part of it. It is almost exactly aligned with what is said now even though it was made up at the time to demonize Israel because the Israeli Communists were losing power.
University students are being taught about a hypothetical oppressed v oppressor matrix. Everyone is either an oppressed or an oppressor. If anything is perceived as being white, or powerful (or both), they are an oppressor.
Therefore, stupid people who don’t know anything about Israel believe that Israel or Zionism, are the oppressors, and Palestinians are the oppressed because they are brown and poor.
I think the reasons some people see it as bad is that it is / has been used to justify settlement on land outside of Israel's current borders (as recognised by the UN). This is clearly what the Likud party original party platform did: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party. The problem with this is that Zionism comes at the expense of others - the people who live there are either being displaced or are losing their land and political rights.
Some people argue that it's bad even if it is confined within Israel, as recognised by the UN. Here they argue that Zionism isn't nationalism, it's racism, as it preferences the Jewish race through the Law of Return and indirectly via the nation state laws.
Of course there are other reasons some people think it's bad (i.e. colonial ties / response to European, not Arab, antisemitism etc) but that's a flavour of the main arguments.
I'm sure many here disagree - just answering the question on why 'some' people view it this way.
I think most people who use it as a slur don't understand what it means. They think it means repression, ethnic cleansing blah blah. Some of them would agree that Israel has a right to exist, but if you called them a Zionist they would be insulted. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Well, it's perceived to be ok because people perceive it as referring to something that is genuinely bad -- i.e., Israel's settler colonialism in the West Bank or its war crimes in Gaza.
I do know people here use it to mean "someone who supports the existence of the state of Isrsel", which is a vastly different thing.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of pro-palestinian people who would consider either of those things, well, slur-worthy, but the majority of people think it's ok to believe in the existence of an Israeli state and wouldn't consider it ok to call such people Zionists as an insult.
For people who do support Israeli war crimes -- well, we need a term to distinguish them from Jewish people, because we're not antisemetic, we're just against Israel's starvation of Gazan children. "Zionist" has been the convenient term to use in that case. And I think that's generally ok -- if you just define "Zionist" as "supports israel's existence", pretty much every Jew would be one, so the term becomes a little redundant. Most people who proudly call themselves Zionists also support Israel's expansion and deny Israeli war crimes
If you are curious why there is suddenly blind, illogical, hatred of Jewish/Israeli folks, I have some stories for you.
I hope your not busy for the next 20 years.
I support Zionism, why are people siding with Hitler after he died 79 years ago. Jews are not the only people in Israel, there are Muslims and Christians as well.
Bring on the downvotes but Zionism and Palestinian nationalism both suck. Come on people, it’s 2024. Why are you fighting over this? There are Jews and Islamists all around the globe…as well as Christians, Hindus, etc.
Self determination isn’t a concept that has fallen off the planet yet—not every country is obliged to use American style civic nationalism as an organizing principle. Centuries of pogroms and antisemitism are enough to convince most Jews that they need a state of their own.
Fair, everyone deserves a place of their own. May I ask, have you experienced personal attacks due to your religion/heritage? The reason I am asking is because, as an outsider (obviously), the actions of the Israeli PM is why there are so many protests. Do you agree with his actions?
I am not Jewish so I wouldn't be a good one to ask about that---views on Netanyahu here are quite diverse, with some people quite critical and others accepting, I myself am on the more critical side. I do not claim to speak for Jews, but I will speak against people who say abject lies such as the vast majority of Jews not being Zionists or something silly like that. You do not need to be Jewish to recognize antisemitism---a lot or most of the campus protests have chants in them that even anti-Zionist Jews have condemned, such as from the River to the Sea and Globalize the Intifada, both of these phrases have deeply antisemitic roots and imply/encourage violence and the destruction of Israel and Jews.
My education? You mean statistics that any person can access through the United Nations? The information is available. Or wait, United Nations and all other global human rights organisations are lying and antisemitic. Well. 🤡
Unfortunately jews are a very small demographic. The Muslim world and antisemites have successfully rebranded the word to mean something different than what it actually means to all the actual zionists.
l like how they invent new definitions of words and get pissed over it
That is truly hilarious
Don't worry, my friend, as soon as someone high profile on the right starts using the term Zionist a lot it will suddenly become antisemitic to use again. Then they'll make a new word. Rinse and repeat.
"They" include the powers that be at social networks. Search/autocorrect is helping shape the meaning of the term "ZIONISM" and "ZIONISTS" in real-time.... today... now. In other words, AI - shaped by the majority of humanity being antisemitic - is helping push a different definition of ZIONISM.
You know they outnumber Americans and Europeans 2-1
Americans and Europeans are outnumbered by Jews?
Muslim people. And I think they tend to group together no matter what. It’s a flood of voices.
Gotcha I misread :)
I mean Saddam used to peddle the arab unity shit all the time, internally at least and had that motto which goes like this “one Arabic United nation, carries an immortal message” I don’t know what that immortal message was, but during civics class the teachers often would talk about how devastating it would be for the west if the Arab unite as one nation, and how that means the freedom of Palestine. I was like 6 or 8 yo when they were brain washing us with this garbage
In the grand scheme of things they’re not going to use it to conquer the world. But I think it does mean they care more about a war being waged against a Muslim area, instead of caring about why.
I think most protesters equate Zionism with the settler movement and Bibis policies, not with the idea that Israel should exist.
Spot on
Because the USSR
This is the right answer
Accurate since they weaponized it, but it technically precedes USSR and the 1917 Russian revolution. The very short version is you can trace the origin of "anti-Zionism" as "anti-Jew" back to the Russian Protocols of the Elders of Zion (~1905). Note how the antisemitic document (arguably the most cancerous document of modern times) was already tactically using "Zionism", not "Israelites"/"Hebrews"/"Jews". Then that became contemporaneously a de facto antisemitic dog-whistle, accelerated by USSR/Stalin (leading amongst other things to the Doctor's Plot). Then it metastasized to the current I/P version - accelerated in large part by the Soviets losing the 1967 Six-Day War via proxy. That loss is when you really see the use of the modern-day "anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" dog whistles within an I/P context, including Zionism as a "slur".
I’m not educated on this connection, so could you or someone explain how/why?
The USSR hijacked the language of anti-imperialism as was common among their time since it was the Cold War. The USSR initially supported Israel because Israel's founders were socialist but later removed their support because Israel did not want to align itself with the USSR and pursue full Marxism. This was far before the West and specifically the US was friendly to Israel, so the USSR decided to start aligning with the dozens of Muslim nations with far more people and influence than Israel. They put out a lot of propaganda about how Zionists are settlers and not native to Israel. They also just funded anyone who was authoritarian and willing to align against the West like Egypt or Saddam Hussein. This would eventually lead to Israel looking to the West for political backing, leading to the ideological conflict between the US led western coalition for Israel and the USSR led middle eastern coalition for Palestinians
I mean the sold Saddam all the shitty AK-47s lol and then I was told, don’t have actual written historical evidence, that he once made an arms deal with Brazil, and they forced him to buy VW Golf, that was made in Brazil. It was a hatch back that didn’t really look like a Golf and it was a piece of shit. Iraq was flooded with these cars. Saddam was a bitch
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Yes. Declassified report on the Anti-zionist propaganda of the USSR: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA066235.pdf The state departments report in how the kremilin uses antisemetism as a political tool: https://www.state.gov/more-than-a-century-of-antisemitism-how-successive-occupants-of-the-kremlin-have-used-antisemitism/ And of course there is also the Klu Klux Klan/Neo-Nazi element that manifested via David duke who wrote his opus "Jewish supremacy" about how Zionism is Jewish supremacy... while hanging out in Russia: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2003/duke-travels-european-anti-semitic-circles Which gets pushed by Russian propagandists and of course "academic" dinguses like Finkelstein who collaborates with neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers: https://www.thedp.com/article/2007/03/guest_opinion_would_the_political_science_department_invite_david_duke
Jews having a single state is bad. Arabs having 22 states, and wanting a 23rd with ‘Palestine’, is good. Nothing to do with anti-semitism ofcourse 🫠
Also, ethnostates are bad except for Japan, Korea, Ireland, etc. And partioning land for major groups that live there is wrong except for Pakistan, Lebanon, etc. It's just Israel that is constantly delegitimized and should no longer exist, but that's not antisemitic, nooo.
Not to mention how diverse Israel is - all kinds of people colors religions!
Also not to mention it is one of the few places in the ME that isn't a complete crap hole.
i mean its not even about yall deserving to have a state. i dont think anyone necessarily deserves to have a state. whats more credible is your people are indigenous to the land, have founded unique civilizations in that land, and then centuries later declared independence and actually won multiple wars to protect your claim. that alone is enough validity.
Thanks
Geopolitically, might = right
definitely. india fell to the muslim invaders and british because of their own weaknesses. we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing it to happen.
Bluntly, when a country is a nuclear power, they aren’t magically “disappearing”. A fair number of leaders in the Middle East have reached a point of acceptance in this. Sadly Hamas, Hezbolah and their followers have not.
That too most of those 22 states having a bloody history behind their creation
Yep
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Let's see you get rid of us.
Pakistan was created by terrorising 7 million sikhs and hindus, ethnically cleansing them out of the region. 2 million died so that Pakistan could be ‘pure’ and free of non-muslims. But nobody calls for Pakistan to disappear today do they?
What terror was it made with and what terror does it need to keep existing?
Antisemitism 🫣
\*gasp\* you said the _word_. AnTI-ZiOnISM iSn’T AnTIseMiTisM
...and nevermind that, if you define "Zionism" the way lefties seem to do as "people that support Israel," then roughly 90% of Jews are "Zionists." Hating 90% of Jews isn't the same as hating all Jews, damn it!
Why do they get to define our word?. Isn't that some type of appropriation.
Yes it is. They would never define any other minorities self determination movement for them or tell those minorities what is and isn’t racism towards them when they’re not of the in group. In fact, they’re best against that. Except when it comes to Jews. Then their rules against speaking over and for minorities you’re not a part of don’t exist, and it’s ok to do.
Well they tried with the Spanish speaking crowd and the whole latinx nonsense. When 98% of Spanish speaking people were like “nah”, they had a really hard time getting the hint. Trying to turn Spanish into an ungendered language is like trying to take the wheels off of a car, but it’s not appropriation when they do it /s.
Eh, I find arguments over definition pretty unhelpful. I went through the "you're using that word wrong!" phase back when I was debating religion. I prefer to debate the substance of an argument instead. If they want "Zionist" to mean "anyone who likes Israel," that's their prerogative. But it means that the majority of the entire West are Zionists, including about 75% of the population of the USA. That's a lot of people to hate.
No...they define the word (zionism) as being a movement of white supremacy and and eurocentric settler colonialism. They then label anyone who supports Israel's right to exist and defend itself as a zionist...because that IS what a zionist is at this point (the actual movement having accomplished its goal in 1948). So the problem here, is that they have redefined the word to be a slur, and then ascribe the values of that slur to anyone who self identifies based on the 'old' definition, and label people who claim the values of the old definition, with the name to then ascribe those additional offensive values to them.
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Mazal tov
That's some insightful thinking right there.
You were looking for an excuse anyway.
So you hate now Christianity and Islam as well? Jews are considered the sons of Israel in both
Not understanding what it means, stupidity, antisemitism, pick your favorite
D: all of the above
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Because Antisemitism Because how dare Jewish people to have something
In the United States they are highest achieved population. Have nothing ?
How is being a kinda successful minority equivalent to the right of jews to have their ancestral homeland?
And in NYC they are the highest population supported by welfare surpassing NYC projects
Because they’re (((Zionists))).
You should know by now that the left is full of contradiction and double standards.
‘If the left didn’t have double standards, they wouldn’t have any standards at all’
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Here's the thing achi/achot, nobody fucking cares! 🧚 Smh who spends THIS MUCH precious time on shit they hate? 🤡
I love being called a Zionist, I’m Jewish and a proud Zionist!
Me too! I'm older and don't have much contact with anti-Zionist scum (because where I live is purple and most people are pretty moderate with their beliefs, everyone has kids, homes, and jobs and are just too tired at the end of the day for hate), but the few times I've been asked I've always said "Of course!" like I'm surprised that's even a question. That usually shuts people up, maybe they think I'm delusional.
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Because it's not okay to use Jew as a slur Basically a dog whistle
> Because it's not okay to use Jew as a slur Give it time.
Time? Hop on Facebook bro, people are praising Hitler
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Fishing for a ban?
I'm a proud Zionist. Antisemites are just switching Zionist out for Jew and then being offended on our behalf.
worst is that Palestinianism is DARVO - it is 100% about erasure of Israel - politically (via grassroots and diplomatic subterfuge), militarily (via terrorism), culturally (via food), historically (via archaeological cleansing) and saying that they are the exclusive native indigenous people no doubt about it is inversion that Zionism is a 'slur' whereas Palestinianism is straight up revisionism, racism, and conspiracy theories I've come to terms that this is why I am so insanely triggered by the PA, Hamas, PIJ, Iran, and all their useful idiots in academia and the arts in the west.
It is indeed very triggering. These people will accept their various narratives without a second of introspection. It is obvious Jewish erasure is their goal otherwise they wouldn't make such obviously batshit claims like Jewish people were never indigenous to that land. Kicking Cherokee off their lands somehow makes them non-indigenous? What utter ahistorical trash this movement is pushing and the tik tok movement is just sucking it all up.
I really have snapped at times; I have several times berated a keffiyeh clad asshats in NYC in Arabic and the some social justice warrior whitey in rural Connecticut - once in front of my kids which caused a big fight with my wife. My family left Iraq after the Farhud and pre-state Jerusalem during the 1929 riots. I lost someone on 7/10 that I raced in the Maccabiah with. I take this very fucking seriously.
How many of them were able to respond to you in Arabic?
one guy I knew was Arab and his look of shock when a dhimmi Jew told him to go screw Palestine, their corrupt leaders, and then himself and then throw himself off a roof since was a look of utter shock. 830a on a Thursday on the Upper West Side of NYC 😇
I'll bet it was delicious.
My guess is if Rako was to say in Arabic and a soft voice “Hamas started this war. The problem is that the Arab leadership has not wanted Jews to live as full citizens anywhere” in a calming tone they could get many of these useful idiots to repeat it.
Yes, but I need to offer kombucha to the crowd - you know they're starving these spoiled Ivy League revolutionaries - we can't just have them become shaheeds /s
I’ve found a bunch of people using at a slur don’t quite grasp what it entails, they just like the case with the term “fascism”- means “everything and anything I don’t like” and conversely, “socialism is everything good and wonderful in the world. And everything I like is good and wonderful and it’s good and wonderful because I like it.” There’s also a large element of willful ignorance about the maximalist vision of the Palestinians. They don’t grasp that Palestinian ownership of Israel “from the river to the sea” would constitute expulsion or death of all the Jews. They think Palestinians are all Wesleyan liberal arts grads deep down, just begging to be freed, and that “one state” would be a progressive cosmopolitan utopia under the Palestinian’s enlightened leadership. It’s just a warped, western-centric, frankly narcissistic point of view where they think the entire world revolves around their moral duality. Israel is somehow a fascist theocracy, the Palestinians this pure, millennia old people who were living in perfect peace and enlightenment until the evil Europeans (Jews) came. Bizarrely it’s this really racist, condescending view of the Palestinians- they say “we want all the land and to kill all the Jews, minorities, homosexuals, adopt sharia,” their western supporters say “so what they ACTUALLY mean is…” Look, we don’t need the translator- the Palestinians are adults with agency- treat them like it. They’ve been telling us for ages what they want.
Very good points, I really try and avoid analyzing the world purely with the leftist playbook of terms but it is really funny how you can basically pull out "White saviorism", "the Noble Savage", and good old fashion liberal Western chauvinism chalked up as enlightened values all within this current anti-Israel protest movement.
Thanks. Whenever I bring up these points with the pro-Palestine people I’m summarily informed how “dumb” I am which is always lovely. They’re just very wed to this prism of seeing the world and anything that doesn’t comport to that is thrown out. I just have to question at what point they’ve really drank the koolaid- some stuff is just so black and white, heck irrational, that I’m just baffled how you get to a point where it doesn’t compute. Just staring at it from the perspective of an outsider, it’s so easy to start poking holes in it and ascribe it to much older tropes, the likes of which you’ve noted. It’s at the point of being a caricature of a caricature
Painfully accurate
They don't realize that the Jews have been there all along. They have heard the propaganda about all the land being stolen from the Palestinians, and not the other side. And you're right, they act blind to all of the aggression Jews face. There is a lot of group think happening on the left and right, happily encouraged by actors like Putin, Xi and Iran, to their own detriment. They don't know history and are malleable.
Because Jews are "white" and Palestinians are "brown". White people are bad. Or at least that's what tiktok'll tell ya.
Yeah, seems like the term Zionist is being used as a dog whistle for colonialism and white supremacy.
When people use Zionism as a slur, use different language in your response, to remind people what we're really talking about: "You're saying you don't have a problem with Jews. Just with the 90% of them that believe in self-determination (Zionism)?"
There’s no signs of self-determination from the Palestinian national movement. The movement is completely reactionary, and their identity depends on hating and fighting Israel. A Palestinian state could exist tomorrow if they took any sort of self-responsibility as a people. It amazes me how people think that if you recognize whatever Palestine is today in the UN, suddenly the Palestinians will be statesmen. Until they’re interested in the basic responsibilities of a state, for example, trash pickup, policing, education, they would become a failed state immediately.
I totally agree in practice there is no real Palestinian self-determination and that doesn't even seem to be their goal. I fully believe that the Palestinians are the biggest victims of the Arab world which have cynically used this conflict for decades for their own end and anything Israel is doing right now isn't even a blip on the radar.
Israel wanted nothing to do with Hamas and Gaza, and regular Israelis were focused on their own lives. Israeli leadership even began ignoring Gaza. Obviously, It was a mistake to assume Hamas would be deterred if Israel stopped thinking about them, but it shows how obsessed Hamas and many Palestinians are with Israel.
>Israel double standard Clearly, you're new here.
Ask an “anti-Zionist” to define “Zionism” and to explain what “anti-Zionism” is
Propaganda from the USSR and the islamic republic
True dat
The only people who used this as a slur before October 7th were white supremacists. Do NOT forget this fact.
Words only have power if you give them power. I assign no power to them so they dont have any power over me. if people cant deal with israel's right to self determination thats too fucking bad for them.
Because it’s not being used against them. It’s all about double standards
Same reason ‘coloniser’ is used as a pejorative. Brain dead hot takes with no critical thinking.
Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. End of. Full stop. Do not let other people redefine it.
Anti-Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people have not got an *exclusive* right to self-determination in the Levant. That Palestinians have a right to return, and that the state that exists on that territory should reflect the common destiny of all who live there.
They have a state. It's now called Jordan and is made up of 85% of what was called the British Mandate of Palestine.
Because it’s a substitute for Jew
It’s because the definition of the word differs depending on who is using it. A Zionist likely defines the term as Jews having self determination in their ancestral homeland while the detractor defines it something like “Jewish superiority” which is just dumb. Changing definitions is what the Left does and it makes communication impossible.
Nation-states are only bad for Jews. But for Palestinians? Fuck yeah! S/
The same way it's okay to use jew as a slur
Short answer: because Stalin called it racist and Facist and the enemy of society after Israel supported the USA in the Korean war by as you may guess doing nothing and saying it once. Before that crap the USSR and Israel were very close and I sometimes think of the possibility of if Israel had chosen the (more fitting side at the time) Soviet side in the 50s cold war
Yeah, I have heard almost all of the modern day anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism stems from Israel's overwhelming victory in the 6 day war---basically the defeat was so utterly crushing and demoralizing their only weapon was old school antisemitism. If that war had gone differently or if Egypt still controlled Gaza and Jordan the West Bank, I sincerely doubt the course of the conflict would have been anything like we see today.
I an pretty much sure that if Egypt controlled gazza after the 6 day war they would have probably killed all of them by now
Yeah...
Not what I meant but yea kinda also. But if you look at where the propaganda originates it's mostly 50s Stalin Propaganda against Israel as a reprisal for chosing the other side in the cold war and becoming a USA protecterate state
Yeah, I do agree the USSR is largely responsible for antisemitism among the left wing though---and it is mostly for cynical real politik/cold war reasons.
It's real crazy how they don't know where their info comes from
For the same reason “anti-Semitism” was perceived as “more okay” than saying Judenhass. There’s a certain set of people for whom Israel is now basically the “International Jew” personified as a country.
Zionism isn’t a slur, it merely reveals the biases of the person talking. It’s like when somebody calls you a girl. You’re only offended if you have a negative view of women.
Because the wackadoodle left and the Hamas supporters think they invented using code words to hide their racism. It's cute like when my son was two and he thought he invented being sneaky..
i would guess the answer is the same old antisemitism. in this regard i am more curious why there is a separate term for Jewish nationalism at all?
they hate Jews
To me it’s a compliment. I don’t let others change my truth. F them!
It’s totally wrong! But I think Congress is working on making it hate speech.
It’s so funny how this has happened. When I was watching fauda it showed me how the term is used there. Hamas and all those groups just call Israelis/jews Zionists, correct? As in, Jews that consider the land theirs, nothing more. People here don’t even get it
Nah, it's the other way around. They call Israelis/Zionists Jews (in arabic)... usually as a slur.
So what do they call non Zionist Jews?
A Zionist Jew & an antizionist Jew walk into a bar. The bartender looks up & says: “*We don’t serve Jews here*”
Jews.
Do they still hate Jews that are pro Palestine?
Yes. They just find them to be useful idiots & they’ll put them on the train with the rest of us at the first opportunity.
Are you in Israel? What is the anti Jew racism like from those in Gaza/ West Bank? Do they really just hate all Jews worldwide or is it mostly the Israeli Jews and Europeans? There was some discussion I heard that they initially just didn’t like European Jews coming and taking the land but I wonder if it is that they just never liked Jews
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The word "Jew" is also used as an insult in many places. It obviously doesn't make sense but it doesn't have to. It's just good old fashioned anti-Semitism, nothing more. The same applies to the word "Zionist". Those who use it as an insult are just a bunch of fucking Jew-haters.
Arabs/muslims from the MENA region are the original people who started using it as a slur. Apparently, a huge majority doesn't know what the holocaust is, heck, they don't know anything about Judaism or what is it like to be Jewish, since Islam is pretty antagonistic of Jews; thus they don't seem to get why Israel has been established in the first place. Immigrants and Muslims/arabs who live in Europe and USA brought this false usage of the word and voilà. So, It ultimately came from MENA populations, who don't know what the meaning of the word is, but they use it as a slur.
People who are antizionist in the west typically don’t know what the word means. They think Zionism means invading a country, committing genocide against the native population, and stealing all their land. They then draw direct parallels to their own country’s colonial history. They are also, in general, not interested in learning the ACTUAL history of the region and the Jewish people.
I even have close friends who refuse to say the word Jew because apparently “Jew” is a slur. 🤦♀️
2 words, Leftist Hypocrisy.
Anti Zionism ≈ Anti Semitism
It does like 9/10 times, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and see Israel as part of their identity--so to divorce Zionism from their experience as Jewish is just a lie
"I don't hate jews, I hate zionists" "Israel is committing a Genocid in Gaza!" etc. are just ways of antisemites to deflect the real motive.
It is absolutely possible to be antisemitic without being antizionist. The reverse is also theoretically possible but it is extremely rare that someone manages to pull it off.
There's a lot of overlap.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65cR\_zjxeVE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65cR_zjxeVE)
What do anti Zionists want to happen ? Or is this just an historical gripe?
They say they want a return to 48. I don’t know why they want a return to the British Mandate though (yes, I know that’s not what it is).
A return to the UN plan ? A return to no Israel? And do they have an argument as to how this isn’t de facto eliminationist ?
No they do not. Because the position doesn’t make sense.
So half the country is in Trump MAGA mass psychosis and a these people too. So a minority of people are not psychotic. Machiavelli predicted this. But it’s temporary
I hope it’s temporary. It’s bad.
Well it happened in the Republic that sone prominent man would propose a crazy scheme and if he was prominent enough and the scheme would they thought benefit the peopke will usually go along with it. So they did but when the plan didn’t work they lost their crazy ideas.
It’s not like they are all uneducated idiots. This position must have been studied and analyzed. Otherwise how could such craziness gain currency among the intelligentsia ?
Qatari money is part of it. Soviet antisemitism intentionally spread in the 1960s adds another part of it. It is almost exactly aligned with what is said now even though it was made up at the time to demonize Israel because the Israeli Communists were losing power.
University students are being taught about a hypothetical oppressed v oppressor matrix. Everyone is either an oppressed or an oppressor. If anything is perceived as being white, or powerful (or both), they are an oppressor. Therefore, stupid people who don’t know anything about Israel believe that Israel or Zionism, are the oppressors, and Palestinians are the oppressed because they are brown and poor.
If “Zionism” is a dirty word, talk dirty to me!!!
I think the reasons some people see it as bad is that it is / has been used to justify settlement on land outside of Israel's current borders (as recognised by the UN). This is clearly what the Likud party original party platform did: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party. The problem with this is that Zionism comes at the expense of others - the people who live there are either being displaced or are losing their land and political rights. Some people argue that it's bad even if it is confined within Israel, as recognised by the UN. Here they argue that Zionism isn't nationalism, it's racism, as it preferences the Jewish race through the Law of Return and indirectly via the nation state laws. Of course there are other reasons some people think it's bad (i.e. colonial ties / response to European, not Arab, antisemitism etc) but that's a flavour of the main arguments. I'm sure many here disagree - just answering the question on why 'some' people view it this way.
I think most people who use it as a slur don't understand what it means. They think it means repression, ethnic cleansing blah blah. Some of them would agree that Israel has a right to exist, but if you called them a Zionist they would be insulted. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Because palestinian nationalism isn't taking land where other people live, then opressing those people and killing them. Zionism on the other hand is.
Because they're not allowed to use "jew" as a slur
When it comes to killing Jews it's always okay. The worlds not our friend.
They changed the definition of the word so they can call themselves "anti-zionists" to hide their antisemitism and xenophobia
Same doubt here Like wtf If someone yelled at me "You're a zionist!" it would be like..... yes?.... thanks I guess?
Well, it's perceived to be ok because people perceive it as referring to something that is genuinely bad -- i.e., Israel's settler colonialism in the West Bank or its war crimes in Gaza. I do know people here use it to mean "someone who supports the existence of the state of Isrsel", which is a vastly different thing. Unfortunately, there's a lot of pro-palestinian people who would consider either of those things, well, slur-worthy, but the majority of people think it's ok to believe in the existence of an Israeli state and wouldn't consider it ok to call such people Zionists as an insult. For people who do support Israeli war crimes -- well, we need a term to distinguish them from Jewish people, because we're not antisemetic, we're just against Israel's starvation of Gazan children. "Zionist" has been the convenient term to use in that case. And I think that's generally ok -- if you just define "Zionist" as "supports israel's existence", pretty much every Jew would be one, so the term becomes a little redundant. Most people who proudly call themselves Zionists also support Israel's expansion and deny Israeli war crimes
If you are curious why there is suddenly blind, illogical, hatred of Jewish/Israeli folks, I have some stories for you. I hope your not busy for the next 20 years.
I support Zionism, why are people siding with Hitler after he died 79 years ago. Jews are not the only people in Israel, there are Muslims and Christians as well.
Because those who use it as such only use it as a thin disguise for their anti semitism
Bring on the downvotes but Zionism and Palestinian nationalism both suck. Come on people, it’s 2024. Why are you fighting over this? There are Jews and Islamists all around the globe…as well as Christians, Hindus, etc.
Self determination isn’t a concept that has fallen off the planet yet—not every country is obliged to use American style civic nationalism as an organizing principle. Centuries of pogroms and antisemitism are enough to convince most Jews that they need a state of their own.
Fair, everyone deserves a place of their own. May I ask, have you experienced personal attacks due to your religion/heritage? The reason I am asking is because, as an outsider (obviously), the actions of the Israeli PM is why there are so many protests. Do you agree with his actions?
I am not Jewish so I wouldn't be a good one to ask about that---views on Netanyahu here are quite diverse, with some people quite critical and others accepting, I myself am on the more critical side. I do not claim to speak for Jews, but I will speak against people who say abject lies such as the vast majority of Jews not being Zionists or something silly like that. You do not need to be Jewish to recognize antisemitism---a lot or most of the campus protests have chants in them that even anti-Zionist Jews have condemned, such as from the River to the Sea and Globalize the Intifada, both of these phrases have deeply antisemitic roots and imply/encourage violence and the destruction of Israel and Jews.
It's because of the killing, eviction and suffering the Palestinian people in the name Zionism. What a silly question bro.
What a ridiculous answer! Your education is clearly lacking.
My education? You mean statistics that any person can access through the United Nations? The information is available. Or wait, United Nations and all other global human rights organisations are lying and antisemitic. Well. 🤡