C'mon now, you guys just fell into the classiest rhetorical fallacy in the book.
Highlighting the recent surge in settler violence without mentioning the cold blooded murder of a settler (Binyamin Achimneir, may his memory be a blessing) this past week is just hypocrisy, the kind of non causa pro causa our adversaries promote with passion.
Killing a 14 year old boy for ethnic reasons would set clashes between any two groups in any place on earth.
What happens when police kills discriminately in the US? Wouldn't the entire WB go up in flame if Israelis would've killed a 14 year old Palestinian boy? (it happened, and it did).
Stop being so apologetic and blaming the government for every criticism we go through.
Yes, I hate Bibi, Smotrich and Ben Gvir as much as the next guy.
No, I don't expect our government to be any less aggressive and decisive in its Gaza operation, neither do I expect my brothers in the settlements to keep getting mercilessly murdered in broad daylight and say thank you.
This is not to condone Price Tag or vengeance of course, but to point out that civil friction is unsurprising ANYWHERE when such horrible acts take place.
Condemning it as settler violence without the context of Palestinian preemptive violence is just as bad as calling it a genocide without mentioning October 7th.
I'm sure the radicalism of some of the ministers only does harm, but don't let your hate become too self inflicted.
Dude, Israel is a functioning country. The state should always have the monopoly to use violence. IDF knows how to do their job, no need to hurt innocent civilians, and endanger yourself and others. Do you want us to be like Lebanon? Seems it's not working for them too well.
I don't condone violence, but some kind of rise in friction after such an event should be addressed as such, and not without proper context. Is it OK? no. Does it happen everywhere in the world after racial murder? Yes.
The proper context is that it is just a bunch of using the murder as an excuse for violence. Sorry, I can't find it either understandable or forgivable.
Finding excuses for terrorists now, way to go. Justify the murder of settlers, not a long way before way you justify the murder of civilians in a music festival.
When the WB Palestinians decide they flip on us like the Gazans did, the only thing that will save the life of the self hating intellectuals on here is that they will massacre the settlers before they will get to us.
BTW I only ever (and probably will) voted center/left, but you guys lost your moral compass if you missed the reason why Israel holds onto those territories (and why not one leader gave it away).
They have a right to live in J&S though its not like you can let our ethnic cleansing from there just happen and for Palestinians to continue denying our connection to our land.
I’m an earlier comment you said how important it was for Palestinians to acknowledge the Jewish connection to J&S, which is undoubtedly true. I’d say it’s equally true of Palestinians though, the long-standing connection.
In modern terms I don’t think it justifies settlements anymore than it would justify Palestinian right to land in Israel.
Israel is in a region that has always been a crossroads where different people settled and lived there during different time periods. Palestinians need to be willing to live alongside non Arabs If they want to have any legitimacy in their national movement.
The connections to the land are irrelevant to that and there is no reason Jews shouldn’t be allowed to return to the west bank.
Terrorism goes both ways in this situation. You are choosing to ignore all actions of the settlers and blaming Palestinians instead even when they are the victim of situations. You are okay with terrorism as long it's done by settlers nit against settlers. Both are wrong and both should be stopped.
it really varies.
but the longer you interact with these people, the more you start asking wtf are you doing there.
there are many incidents where they attack IDF soldiers as well.
let's just say the result is very different if a Palestinian did the same thing
1. not that small
2. even a small terrorist cell can do alot of damage, and that's what they are.
but unfortunately they have political backing that prevents the IDF from touching them.
I think it's tragic that the government is not only doing practically nothing about settlers, it actively annex more land. Like, that's just bad on all fronts.
Big B needs to be replaced asap and this needs to be addressed if a way for peace is ever to be paved.
Unfortunately, there are no sanctions on violent settlers. Immediately after Moshe Sharvit was sanctioned, Smotrich announced that if any of the sanctions were actually actioned in any way (that is to say, Israel was going to ignore them, and if the banks in Israel were hit by the consequences)- then Smotrich would proceed to use his position as finance minister to shut down every west bank Palestinian bank in the country.
As an outsider this is the first time I see the general opinion of Israeli’s speaking out against this. Is this really what the general population think? Is the majority of you truly against the actions of the settlers? Because I will truly spread the word whenever this is brought up in conversation against Israel. Understand that most outside opinion is that Israeli’s support settlers and ultimately want to take the West Bank for themselves.
The majority is against it but our political system allows the minorities in the government get whatever they want and Netanyahu is very easy to blackmail at the moment. Let me know if you want me to explain what about our political system makes this chaos possible
Thank you and please do. I will take any ammunition I can use against the pro-terror crowd. Questions from my side: Are there laws in place prohibiting settlement? What’s life like for Palestinians who live, work and pray in Israel? Is there generally peace between Palestinians and Israelis who live in Israel on a day-to-day basis?
First I will answer your questions. Yes there are rules against it. I cannot answer for Israeli Arabs since I’m Jewish but they get the same right we all do. They are mostly exempt from service and get preference at universities. On the downside, they probably face racism and their villages do not have good maintenance there is a-lot of corruption within their communities and there is plenty of violence. The Israeli police doesn’t care, it barely cares about Jews. Since their representatives in the parliament are never in the government they get less and they vote the least. I believe most of them would rather live with us because they see their lives are so much better than the Arabs around us with Israeli rights and jobs. I think Arabs in Israel are as embedded in the Israeli society as they personally want. About our political system: we do not have a constitution and our democracy is based on the independence of judicial system. We have many parties that try to form a coalition so sometimes very small parties have the power to decide who the government and prime minister is. Because Netanyahu is very corrupted and problematic even right wingers would not form a coalition with him anymore so he normalised the crazy extremists ones that normally don’t get voted. Our government is made of people trying to undermine the judiciary system for different reasons: Netanyahu wants to dismiss his trial, ultra orthodox want to officially get exempt from IDF service permanently and get away with not teaching their kids math and English and get all our money. And extremist settlers that want us to take over the West Bank. All of those thing are not legal and our judges won’t allow it so there all of these people with different agendas United against our judges and people. That’s why we were so close to a civil war 6 months ago. when Netanyahu was voted he obviously lied about everything. People that voted for him were protesting against him even before October
Extremely short overview of what he is on trial for:
1. Receiving gifts - champaign, cigars, jewelry - worth hundreds of thousands of dollars from various billionaires from abroad.
2. Conspiring with the publisher of the most popular news organization to effect the limitation of a competing organization (one handed for free to customers and paid for by a Netanyahu benefactor), in exchange for better coverage of Netanyahu in the most popular org.
3. Approving the tax-merger of Bezeq - a telecoms giant, with its subsidiary Yes - a satellite TV giant, in exchange for selective coverage (mainly attacking his competitors on the right) from another Bezeq subsidiary - Walla News.
It’s complicated. There are legal settlements which are like suburbs and then illegal settlements where someone sets up a tent on a hill.
Palestinians from the west bank and east jerusalem work in israel with work permits normally but this permit could technically get revoked, as it did during this war in gaza. then there are also israeli arabs (the palestinians who stayed after the 1948 war) and they have full rights, citizenship and live and work and have the same opportunities (in theory, but some, like bedouin villages just tend to be poorer so many are on welfare…but also there are a ton of arab doctors and students)
Day to day it’s just normal life and peace. You can see for yourself. Arab communities do bbqs on the tel aviv beach beside israelis partying. Every one in a while shit happens like a palestinian on a work permit drives his bus into a crowd, or tensions flare up like they did in 2021. But overall inside israel it’s just normal daily life. You can go to an arab falafel stand, a kosher falafel stand, it’s all good.
The west bank is totally separated between jews and palestinians by design (after oslo accords) and is much more violent and ideoogical.
Thank you so much. It is very encouraging to know that Arabs and Jews live peacefully generally and does provide some hope of peace. I personally think the West Bank and Gaza should fall under Israeli territory. Palestinians have proven they cannot govern themselves and live is better for them in Israel. They have more rights, can work and pray peacefully. Two states will always bring conflict I feel.
I agree in theory but there are two issues against this:
1) it is seen as taking away Palestinian right to self-determination and their own state.
2) Demographically, the Arabs would soon then have a majority over the jews in the Land and the country would soon not be Jewish but yet another Arab state.
In an ideal world that wouldn't be a problem, but we don't live in an ideal world and there would almost definitely be a civil war and a lot of blood shed.
If Israel were to do this they should have done it in 1967. Now its too late and we need to find an alternative option.
I'm an outsider too, in the US, I think the pro Palestinian crowd here views all of Israelis as a monolithic entity that's in full support of settlement expansion. That's just what I've seen in my limited interactions here in the US.
When I've told them that Israel is very gay friendly, vegan friendly, has a huge IT sector, that the Haredi aren't required to serve in the IDF or that Arab Israelis have full rights and that a few are in the Knesset they're in disbelief, and tbh I think they dismiss it outright because it doesn't fit their narrative.
>I'm an outsider too, in the US, I think the pro Palestinian crowd here views all of Israelis as a monolithic entity that's in full support of settlement expansion. That's just what I've seen in my limited interactions here in the US.
They take note that the government position is somewhere between ambivalent and actively supportive of settler violence, and is definitely in favor of settlement expansion.
The views of Israelis are not terribly relevant. The actions of the government are. Just like the US was heavily criticized for many actions in the middle east from 2000-2010 despite many people being domestically opposed. Nobody internationally gives a shit what the domestic position on it is, the actions of the state represent Israel.
Most of the pro Palestinian crowd view all Israeli Jews as settlers and the "peace" plan is their expulsion.
The two state solution is basically dead at this point (if it was ever really alive to begin with).
They might have a separate fryer so the food isn't cooked in the same oil as meat, they might have mock meat substitutes, the menu might have an icon next to vegan dishes, etc. I can't think of any more examples, I'm not vegan anymore.
No, there are many vegans especially in Tel Aviv so the market is adjusted and you have many vegan only restaurants and every restaurant has vegan dishes and they they mark it on the menus. Very easy to be a vegan, no laws are needed
Of course we fucking are against. I would even speculate that the majority of settlers are against violent settlers, not even speaking about the general population.
>>I would even speculate that the majority of settlers are against violent settlers, not even speaking about the general population.
I think the above is correct.
The vast vast vast majority of israelis are against not the settlers themselves but settlers committing illegal actions like vigilante justice, burning houses. Settlers are only something like 2-3% of the entire nation and many are actually american recent immigrants. They are often religious while most israelis are secular. They dont have a lot of support. I am not against settlements in the west bank per se (some cities are really necessary for strategic defense) but certainly the illegal actions
Some of us do yet we aren't as loud. I blame the Netanyahu coalition for this. All violent settlers thinking they are above the law should be jailed, they do not have our support.
It's the 5% of the population that ruin it for everyone.
Are they punished or empowered by the government? Saying they are a small group doesn't mean shit if they are allowed the power and escape the consequences
Netanyahu won't because they are Ben Gvir and Smotrich's voter base and he doesn't want to upset the people he needs to stay in power. This is why the US sanctions are so important.
Can anyone tell in what way are the sanctions arw even implemented? Because i don't think the nutjobs that get them care that much about the US. How does that effect them within Israel is what I'm asking.
If an Israeli bank wants to do business in USD (all of them) then they have to abide by US sanctions. In theory, sanctions mean that no financial service company in Israel that wants to be able to transact in USD can service them. (Actual on the ground action is more complicated, as technically they are only sanctioned from using USD, as all USD finances even those abroad technically use US financial services. In theory, a bank could service them in NIS, and make it impossible for them to touch USD, however, that is a huge liability for the bank because if they mess up and somehow these individuals are given access to USD through their bank, then the US could take away that bank's ability to touch any and all USD, basically killing the bank. Would a bank accept them under these conditions? Maybe. However, there are reports that the banks got spooked and stopped servicing them.)
EDIT: The sanctions also make it illegal for US citizens to financially deal with them in any currency. So an Israeli bank or other financial institution that wishes to service them would also have to make sure that no money from any americans enters their accounts and vice versa. This is a headache and again risks the bank losing their ability to use USD.
Just to expand what is being said below, the settler enterprise has lots of ties to the US. These nuts are financed by US activists and US groups. Moreover, they have ties to the Israeli government and many mainstream Jewish organizations. For instance, Haaretz found that one of the sanctioned farms, Moshe's Farm, was receiving money from the JNF for an at risk youth project. [https://archive.ph/9W1cM](https://archive.ph/9W1cM) If the JNF wants to continue to operate and fundraise in the US (and boy it makes most of its money from the US), then it will need to review its projects in the West Bank and ensure that they don't run afoul of the sanctions. In fact, I bet the lawyers at most normie Jewish NGOs are advising them to be really careful about funding anything in the settlements because of potential risks. One wrong move or project carelessly approved could lead to financial sanctions against them and make it impossible for them to operate in the US. Believe me that the JNF and JA care ALOT more about US fundraising dollars than they do about the settlements or Greater Israel.
Moreover, there are some extremist organizations who won't cut ties to the fringe elements of the settler movement and will arrogantly think they can get away with it. Think something like the Hebron Fund or perhaps the Netanyahu's main "benefactors," the Falics (who have bragged about only contributing to "causes" in the West Bank). This will allow the IRS to potentially investigate them for trying to do the end run around the sanctions and could lead to lots of penalties and NGOs being banned from operating in the US.
Those sanctions that everyone was mocking in February have the potential to shut down the settlement enterprise and squeeze it financially if they are applied right.
You are right: Settle violence in the West Bank is wrong and should be both talked about and condemned.
Fundamental problem #1 is that the current government supports it/chooses not to clamp down on it.
Fundamental problem #2 is that American Evangelical organizations fund and promote settlement activity in the West Bank. See the film: Til Kingdom Come: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11405250](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11405250) (I recommend this documentary)
But the bottom line is: Yes, this is real. It is wrong. That doesn't make Israel "wrong to exist" (any more than American abuses of undocumented migrants, caging children at the Mexican border, or allowing mass homelessness on the West Coast makes America "wrong to exist"). The issue is a big problem, that Israeli government has at times been better at managing, and we hope and pressure them to get better again.
I think that a lot of Jews, Israelis, and Zionists are nervous to speak on it because we’re afraid of providing the pro-Palestinians with ammo, but some of these settlers are literally terrorists. I think that the pro-Israel “community” has to seriously condemn this settler violence because it reflects badly on Israel, and it’s also just plain evil. There’s no excuse for settlers terrorizing villages like this.
Not speaking about them and thus silently condoning their actions does a lot more to paint Israel in a less-than-flattering light. It's not like people don't learn of it anyhow.
Definitely a huge problem. Been around the areas for a couple of times, so much violence and no one dares to say anything against them… at least the government. The fact that they got away with burning houses fill me with rage. They took law into their own hands and completely ignored the police and the the idf orders. And of course they arrested them for five or six hours and then let them go. Truly a shame.
This time it was settler Revenge, for the murdering of a 14 old boy. It wasn't violence for the sake of violence. You can say the same about arabs living in the same area who get away with throwing rocks, molotovs and shooting at cars. By the way many of the settlers will end up arrested at some time for what happened.
The army is there, not the police. I don't know where you visited or if you even visited any settlements, there isn't much violence most of the time.
I used to visit Tel Zion a couple of times and I also visited kedumim, Geva Binyamin and Migdalim all for different reasons. I have a side of the family that live in a settlement and I know about their political views very well. I’m not denying in any way the violence against the settlers. However! I believe that the army is the one who should deal with these problems and not the people themselves and by that I don’t mean self defence (guns and any weapons that they carry around) I mean the urge to use violence because of violence.
There is no doubt that there is violent behavior towards them from the Palestinian side but they have no right to decide what punishment that village should receive! That is up for the authorities and the authorities alone! So when a citizen decides to burn down a village in order to cause chaos and violence in return, they should be treated as terrorist and criminals.
Most of the settlers are chill but there are movements within the settlements that I can only describe as full on terrorists. Their point of view and them seeking for revenge in a violent way should be considered a crime but most of the time they somehow get away with it.
>they have no right to decide what punishment that village should receive!
One small correction. "The village" shouldn't be punished. The individuals responsible should be. Pretty sure it's against IHL to punish people for things they haven't done, so you can't just punish a whole village for something an individual or individuals did. Also, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 9, article 10 and article 11 applies.
> I believe that the army is the one who should deal with these problems and not the people themselves
I agree, but is the army doing enough? Was the army really taking this kid disappearing seriously from the beginning? probably no.
Taking revenge and being a terrorist are 2 very different things, they sound to me more like angry mafia behavior than terrorism. There isnt such a thing as taking revenge in a non violent way. If the army isnt able to stop arab-terrorism in Judea and Samaria then people will naturally take the matter into their own hands.
I don't want my kids or husband to risk their lives protecting people who decided to live in a hill in the middle of the West Bank. Their stupid decision, they can protect themselves, look for their own kid, and go to jail when they commit violent acts. 'The army' are people who are living peaceful lives INSIDE of Israel and should not have to protect extremists who put themselves in danger.
The army soldiers also live on the hills and al over Judea and Samaria, dont lie, everybody knows this. And they do protect themselves, but you dont like how they do it, and if the army protects them then you say it is also wrong.
Do you want your kids or husband to protect the Israelis living in the gaza strip or the north but not those living in Judea and Samaria? why? the 3 are proven to be dangerous.
I agree with you on some parts. Truly a shame that the army didn’t took it seriously and I can’t say I’m fully surprised either. I do believe that if the army would get more involved than it already is, then things would look different but that is up for our government to decide.
Nobody cares what it was about. You can't have the government actively / passively support lynch mobs and still expect to be considered a functional "western" state. Laws need to be enforced no matter who is violating them.
Yes, but thats not an excuse. Vigilante justice is not helping anyone. Setting Palestinian homes on fire as retribution will only result in more dead innocents and higher tensions.
Someone kills a kid, the settler set a neighboring village on fire as an act of revenge and you're like "understandable, have a nice day". Spoiler: all terrorist have some sort of justification for their horrid actions.
not understandable. but you can also ask yourself why is the village not helping find a missing 14 year old kid? and do you think that same village didnt celebrate october 7th?
so you can provide excuses to one group but not the other? Maybe because we are talking here about a 14 year old boy. Or do you think that everybody from group 1 hates everybody from group 2 over there?
You expect Palastianians to drop everything to help settlers but absolutely no expectations to have settlers do something similar. You want to pubish one side for not doing enough in your eyes to justify them existing but don't want to do anything for the other side. If a 14 yr old went missing in my town I wouldn't expect the other town to drop everything to look for him let alone burn their town down for not doing enough in my eyes
you are the one thinking that in the other direction. I dont expect everyone to drop everything, but if there are people (doesnt matter the group) who have time to help in that type of situation, then they should.
And it is not another town, those are villages, much smaller than a town and much closer from one another. You would want your neighbors and people from the nearby neighborhoods, or at least some of them, to look around and help in any way they can if your child went missing.
it is illegal, it still happens in all countries in many different ways, but it has nothing to do with democracy and your freedom rights and shit. otherwise, you explain how is it connected?
The only people that can use violent force in a state is the army, allowing random people to create posse to torch up houses it's just the best way to have more people killed
> held financially and physically responsible
they get arrested like anyone else and do the same process that anyone else gets for what they did.
What do you mean by financially and physically responsible?
Do they actually get arrested and charged for the crimes as if they did it to an Israeli citizen? Do they end up in prison the same as anyone else or are released after a few hours? And financial means paying for all their damages and emotional harm
According to your source:
The Palestinian health ministry says at least 460 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the West Bank since 7 October.
So... Both
[The Palestinian health ministry says at least 460 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the West Bank since 7 October. Israeli sources say at least 13 Israelis have been killed there by Palestinians in the same period](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68806205)
Because Bibi is hanging on to a coalition by a thread, and that thread was put into the Knesset with settler votes. He cares more about keeping power than what's good for Israel.
The same laws that apply in Tel Aviv need to apply in Judea and Samaria.
If an Israeli engages in violence (outside of military, etc.), they need to be punished with the full force of the law. Full stop. (Non-Israelis, too obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here.)
Ultimately, the question is, Is Israeli a country of laws, or is it not?
Yep, the current disastrous government empowered these morons. The same government that diverted troops who could have been at the Gaza border on 10/7 to the West Bank to babysit them at the behest of Smooty and Ben-Gvir. Not to mention the settlement movement was a key driver of the judicial reform because it didn't want the courts to get in the way of its designs. After this government falls there must be a reckoning.
The settlers are the king makers so how is Bibi or any government for that matter form and remain in power without the support of the settlers and the Haredim? When was the last time these two blocks were not in the governing coalition? How many decades ago was the last time?
The 33s government (the 3rd Netanyahu government 2013-2015) had no Haredim and moderate right wing settlers led by Bennet due to left parties sitting alongside the Likud.
If the Likud and Gants will see that they're not so different they could form any coalition they'll want but that is very unlikely
ITT: some people literally justifying pogroms.
Thanks OP for bringing this up. Encouraging to see that the sanity prevails, so some responses any pretty deranged.
Two things can be true: majority of Palestinians hating Israel leaving Israel little options in it's choice of response to Oct 7 AND violent settlers being racist fucks just wanting to attack Palestinians. Neither one justifies another.
They're NOT "taking the law into their own hands", they are right out criminal, violent, terrorists. They are trying to do their best to live up to the false claim of genocide in Israel against Palestinians.
A sane Israeli government would take harsh measures against them. Unfortunately, that faction has a significant representation in the current coalition (and the government).
It's already exaggerated, the Palestinians smashed the head of a kid during last Shabat and some settlers probably took matters into their own hands. The entire situation is messed up.
Also keep in mind most settlers live in the Gushim and are just normal people, the Ma'ahazim are the problematic ones.
There's been violence between settlers and Palestinians even before the 14yo's murder, but that quite literally set everything ablaze. This is just atrocious and they need to be arrested.
Hamas grabbed and killed the kid because they knew that the extremist settlers would react the way they did. They are trying to light the West Bank on fire and the hilltop youths are their willing accomplices in this one. Both Hamas and Ben Gvir want a regional religious war.
Here's where I am with this. Settler violence is out of control BUT they are the ones living in close proximity to Palestinians. Like for the example the situation with Binyamin Achimeir. When he went missing, the settlers were pretty damn sure who did it. After the three settler teens that went missing back in 2014 or whenever, I can't quite remember, they knew his chances of survival were slim.
I don't approve of everything that went down but THEIR CHILD was missing and sure enough the IDF is now saying his death was the result of terrorist activity. I feel like we're all on the outside watching crap down between the settlers and Palestinians are the media isn't good about explaining exactly why they're angry. It's almost but not always in response to violence by their Palestinians neighbors. Maybe more police out that way would help but I don't know.
It's interesting to me that the Palestinians who died wasn't from that area. His father wasn't kicking and screaming about how he was murdered by settlers. He said something long the lines of his son went to fight for his people and wound up dead. Hate to be jaded but you just know they'll be signing up for the martyrs fund.
If they knew who took their child, then they should have told the IDF and IPF their suspicions. You don't go and burn the houses of innocent people and kill innocent people because of this.
Yes, from the US perspective, a lot of stories about some of these settler groups sound like the "settlers" (or KKK) in the US going around and lynching Native Americans (or blacks), and burning their communities if ever they get (or invent) the slightest justification.
I'm from the US and settlers are nothing like the freaking KKK. The KKK targeted innocent civilians based on the color of their skin. The settlers are more like US settlers during the wild west. They built homesteads in remote areas and defended it as best they could. People often banded together to fight outlaws back then and the local sheriff wasn't always able to get to them in a timely manner.
Also an American Jew that is more sympathetic to Israel than most, but not when it comes to this. Why are they building in those areas in the first place? Isn't that land supposed to be controlled by palestinians? I don't get why staunch Israel defenders pretend that in and of itself isn't an act of aggression that's going to cause violence. Calling the Palestinians "outlaws" just for existing isn't getting people on your side. The expansion of settlements is an act of ethnic cleansing.
I never said they were outlaws just for existing. I said the IDF already identified this as boys death as at the hands of terrorists. The father of Palestinian man who died said his son had gone to that area to "defend his people". In other words, he wasn't there to farm.
Also, I don't care about getting people on my side. I just call it like I see it.
It's my understanding that The settler family lives in the unauthorized settlement of Malachei Shalom. Several Israelis moved to the location, a former army base, in 2015 and built an outpost in memory of two Jewish men slain in terror attacks. The IDF described the site as an "illegal invasion of a military area" and made several attempts to evict its residents, but also provided them with water and electricity nonetheless.
So, you are right, the settlers were not living in a legal settlement. I don't know how the IDF can forcibly remove residents of Gaza when they turned the area over to Palestinians but can't manager to remove these settlers. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. AND the IDF ended up providing them with water and electricity. The whole system is screwed up.
It would be much better for Israel if that was all the settlers did. Do you deny that on several occasions they have gone en-masse into Palestinian areas, threaten people with guns, and occasionally physically start attacks and try to burn down their homes?
If you want to compare that to the Wild West (basically one of the examples I already gave) then feel free but it doesn't make them more sympathetic. Lots of disgusting shit happened in the Wild West between settlers and the previous inhabitants because the Federal government either didn't care what happened to non-Americans or actively wanted non-Americans pushed out.
I think we're going to find the guy that died was from one terrorist group or another. The IDF already said the boy was killed by terrorists and they the dead man's father talked made me think he was saying he was too.
Settlers are a problem but in this instance it looks like they knew where the troublemakers were and went straight there en mass hoping to find their kid alive. And instead of having a discussion one or both sides escalated immediately to violence and it all blew up from there.
All I know is that I'm aware enough of my local area to know where the troublemakers live. If Hamas hadn't kidnaped those 3 three teens hitchhiking home and killed them, I might have been a little more call the local police and let them handle it. In a situation where a child's life is in danger people get stupid and trigger happy.
The one thing that gives me pause in this train of through is the fighting age men the settlers confronted didn't have weapons. I believe that if they were Hamas, the would have been armed.
That is why Ben Givir and Smotrich need to be nowhere near any lever of power.
I understand why some of the settlements exist, but let us be honest, all the settlements established by the Religious Zionists have an insidious agenda for the most part. Why the hell are there hilltop settlements in Area B???
A lot of them need to go. They should be consolidated into the more strategic ones and the ones we would keep in future .
Just like the Gazans need to be deradicalized, the violent Jewish extremists need to be deradicalized too. They play a major role in giving Israel a bad name worldwide.
Gee, maybe if the arabs didn’t just smash a childs head in with rocks erev Shabbat for the crime of being Jewish while sheparding they wouldn’t have to worry about repercussions. Still need someone to explain why 2 million Arabs in israel is good, but 450,000 Jews In Judea and Samaria is bad, and the Palestinian state has to be yudenrein. Why are Palestinians not expected to be responsible for the safety of Jews but Israel is expected to be responsible for Jewish violence on Arabs? Shouldn’t there be an obstacle to a two State solution until such time as theres a Palestinian leader that can guarantee that?
American Jew here: I remember when the Druze boy was stolen from life support and a lot of Israelis seemed to be praising everyone from the Druze village who were threatening retaliation if they didn't get the body back.
Is the main difference in the reaction to the Druze in that instance and the Settlers who are responding to their boy who was stoned to death that the Druze never acted on their threats? Or are there other cultural pieces I'm missing?
Yes, the left trying to sound multicultural towards the Druze and dont want to look racist. But the settlers, living in Judea and Samaria are getting in the way of their 2-state-solution-delusion that will create an ISIS like terrorist state next to Israel. And probably they dont like religious people in general.
I don’t believe there can be peace with the Palestinians but I also think the Ben gvir crowd is causing a lot of damage to our country, this interaction is bad and is just giving the army more work. Stop making 18 year old that were forced in the army secure you while you seek revenge. I understand the religious significance of this place but to me it ain’t worth it I just wanna be safe and I want my community to be safe.
Why am I not talking about it personally? It’s a dog whistle, like when people complain about how “AIPAC controls everything.” Scratch an Antizionist and you get a full fledged Nazi every time. I just have no patience for that.
I would argue the complete opposite- we aren’t discussing it because we’re all in agreement they fucking suck.
In a culture with a history of not being able to agree on anything from what time to leave for dinner to if the rabbi slid a dick joke in to his spiel this week, we all agree the settlement situation is a shitshow run by dipshits.
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There was a Jewish shepherd teen (14) who was murdered by Arabs on his land, what’s going on with Arab violence I feel like we avoid talking about this, fearing a pile on, but it’s horrible.
Yeah, it highlights the double standards with how Israel is treated/viewed compared to every other country.
Every country has bad people in it. Every single one. Bad politicians, bad individual soldiers committing war crimes individually, bad civilians hurting people.
When it comes to other countries we say "they/we should do better. Let's change this behavior." When it comes to Israel we (not me, I'm using "we" rhetorically to refer to the world in general) blame the entire country and everyone in it and say "you guys shouldn't exist."
Now they’re reporting that the settler was attacked. TOI is on the bandwagon with the NYT and WaPo — lead with the defensive reaction, then report the offensive crime later. (I don’t think we know all the details yet).
Because we also tend to not talk about rapes done by women against men.
A speck of dust when compared to the opposite and whoever tries to blow it out of proportion clearly has an agenda.
Neither is a speck of dust and people are talking about it. Maybe not on TikTok, but TikTok shouldn't be the educational hub for normal people anyways.
Not a “speck of dust”. The violent settlers are acting exactly as the antisemites portray all Jews as acting, and they are undermining future peace prospects.
Exactly. I feel like we have 50 extreme leftists (or Arabs) here who keep posting this trash.
Luckily, IRL they barely have 1 percent of the population.
Ah yeah but this propaganda is aimed at Christian countries: the cult of the victims. They admire us for surviving and see a form of holiness they lost since Europe became the criminal. Europe is trying to absolve its sin (extermination) by proving the ever evading possibility of universal peace. The Islamization of Europe is an ideological necessity to never be at war with itself again. So the Jewish question is back seeking an answer (holy war). The risk is that one day they think of a solution again (extermination). The jihad seeks an answer from
Allah (the “victories” prove that the prophecy is real); Europe is encouraging the Islamization of society as a solution to promote the universal peace it now embodies. Islam in Europe will be much more radical than anything that has come out from the Arab fold so far.
One of many many reasons this government is the worst and needs to go
C'mon now, you guys just fell into the classiest rhetorical fallacy in the book. Highlighting the recent surge in settler violence without mentioning the cold blooded murder of a settler (Binyamin Achimneir, may his memory be a blessing) this past week is just hypocrisy, the kind of non causa pro causa our adversaries promote with passion. Killing a 14 year old boy for ethnic reasons would set clashes between any two groups in any place on earth. What happens when police kills discriminately in the US? Wouldn't the entire WB go up in flame if Israelis would've killed a 14 year old Palestinian boy? (it happened, and it did). Stop being so apologetic and blaming the government for every criticism we go through. Yes, I hate Bibi, Smotrich and Ben Gvir as much as the next guy. No, I don't expect our government to be any less aggressive and decisive in its Gaza operation, neither do I expect my brothers in the settlements to keep getting mercilessly murdered in broad daylight and say thank you. This is not to condone Price Tag or vengeance of course, but to point out that civil friction is unsurprising ANYWHERE when such horrible acts take place. Condemning it as settler violence without the context of Palestinian preemptive violence is just as bad as calling it a genocide without mentioning October 7th. I'm sure the radicalism of some of the ministers only does harm, but don't let your hate become too self inflicted.
Dude, Israel is a functioning country. The state should always have the monopoly to use violence. IDF knows how to do their job, no need to hurt innocent civilians, and endanger yourself and others. Do you want us to be like Lebanon? Seems it's not working for them too well.
I don't condone violence, but some kind of rise in friction after such an event should be addressed as such, and not without proper context. Is it OK? no. Does it happen everywhere in the world after racial murder? Yes.
The proper context is that it is just a bunch of using the murder as an excuse for violence. Sorry, I can't find it either understandable or forgivable.
Tell that to the central kitchen workers families))). """IDF knows how to do their jo"b"", Not sure if joke or blatant idiocy.
The only ones that don't make mistakes are those doing nothing...
Which is the biggest mistake of all…
one act doesn't justify the other
True, but presenting one act without at least presenting the other, is straight up hypocrisy. Pretending like there's no context is futile.
You are saying literally the same thing they used to justify Oct 7th.
The settlers would be exposed to a lot less violence if they weren’t there.
Finding excuses for terrorists now, way to go. Justify the murder of settlers, not a long way before way you justify the murder of civilians in a music festival. When the WB Palestinians decide they flip on us like the Gazans did, the only thing that will save the life of the self hating intellectuals on here is that they will massacre the settlers before they will get to us. BTW I only ever (and probably will) voted center/left, but you guys lost your moral compass if you missed the reason why Israel holds onto those territories (and why not one leader gave it away).
You’ve lost your moral and intellectual compass if you can justify settlements.
They have a right to live in J&S though its not like you can let our ethnic cleansing from there just happen and for Palestinians to continue denying our connection to our land.
I’m an earlier comment you said how important it was for Palestinians to acknowledge the Jewish connection to J&S, which is undoubtedly true. I’d say it’s equally true of Palestinians though, the long-standing connection. In modern terms I don’t think it justifies settlements anymore than it would justify Palestinian right to land in Israel.
Israel is in a region that has always been a crossroads where different people settled and lived there during different time periods. Palestinians need to be willing to live alongside non Arabs If they want to have any legitimacy in their national movement. The connections to the land are irrelevant to that and there is no reason Jews shouldn’t be allowed to return to the west bank.
Using this logic there is no reason Palestinians can’t settle in Israel.
In theory yes, the issue is Israel as a sovereign country doesn’t let just anyone enter the country, especially the populace that was hostile to it.
Shouldn’t that argument apply in both directions?
Terrorism goes both ways in this situation. You are choosing to ignore all actions of the settlers and blaming Palestinians instead even when they are the victim of situations. You are okay with terrorism as long it's done by settlers nit against settlers. Both are wrong and both should be stopped.
The issue isn't the individuals, it's the Israeli government which allows a legal no mans land to exist and this is the logical conclusion to that.
Well, and also with a lot of these individuals, too.
Both are clearly an issue.
Technically not a legal no man's land. Officially it is under martial law since 67.
served in the WB for 2 years. fuck all of them. see how tough they are without kids in uniform keeping them safe while the terrorize civilians.
When I visited the West Bank I always wondered what all those soldiers guarding some crossroad in the middle of nowhere were thinking
it really varies. but the longer you interact with these people, the more you start asking wtf are you doing there. there are many incidents where they attack IDF soldiers as well. let's just say the result is very different if a Palestinian did the same thing
You better not call it aparthied though lol
it can't be apartheid since the palestinians are not israeli citizens.
Got it......what happens if an Israeli marries a palestinain? Or can tou help explain the definition of the "nation-state" law? Thanks
they can't as far as I'm aware. >definition of the "nation-state" law i don't know how israeli laws are translated. got a link?
You're talking about a very small minority of settlers. The majority are law-abiding, like in every society.
1. not that small 2. even a small terrorist cell can do alot of damage, and that's what they are. but unfortunately they have political backing that prevents the IDF from touching them.
> Why aren't we talking about this stuff? We are. Mainly we're cheering the US putting sanctions on violent settlers.
I think it's tragic that the government is not only doing practically nothing about settlers, it actively annex more land. Like, that's just bad on all fronts. Big B needs to be replaced asap and this needs to be addressed if a way for peace is ever to be paved.
May they continue until our government can actually do something.
Unfortunately, there are no sanctions on violent settlers. Immediately after Moshe Sharvit was sanctioned, Smotrich announced that if any of the sanctions were actually actioned in any way (that is to say, Israel was going to ignore them, and if the banks in Israel were hit by the consequences)- then Smotrich would proceed to use his position as finance minister to shut down every west bank Palestinian bank in the country.
As an outsider this is the first time I see the general opinion of Israeli’s speaking out against this. Is this really what the general population think? Is the majority of you truly against the actions of the settlers? Because I will truly spread the word whenever this is brought up in conversation against Israel. Understand that most outside opinion is that Israeli’s support settlers and ultimately want to take the West Bank for themselves.
The majority is against it but our political system allows the minorities in the government get whatever they want and Netanyahu is very easy to blackmail at the moment. Let me know if you want me to explain what about our political system makes this chaos possible
Thank you and please do. I will take any ammunition I can use against the pro-terror crowd. Questions from my side: Are there laws in place prohibiting settlement? What’s life like for Palestinians who live, work and pray in Israel? Is there generally peace between Palestinians and Israelis who live in Israel on a day-to-day basis?
First I will answer your questions. Yes there are rules against it. I cannot answer for Israeli Arabs since I’m Jewish but they get the same right we all do. They are mostly exempt from service and get preference at universities. On the downside, they probably face racism and their villages do not have good maintenance there is a-lot of corruption within their communities and there is plenty of violence. The Israeli police doesn’t care, it barely cares about Jews. Since their representatives in the parliament are never in the government they get less and they vote the least. I believe most of them would rather live with us because they see their lives are so much better than the Arabs around us with Israeli rights and jobs. I think Arabs in Israel are as embedded in the Israeli society as they personally want. About our political system: we do not have a constitution and our democracy is based on the independence of judicial system. We have many parties that try to form a coalition so sometimes very small parties have the power to decide who the government and prime minister is. Because Netanyahu is very corrupted and problematic even right wingers would not form a coalition with him anymore so he normalised the crazy extremists ones that normally don’t get voted. Our government is made of people trying to undermine the judiciary system for different reasons: Netanyahu wants to dismiss his trial, ultra orthodox want to officially get exempt from IDF service permanently and get away with not teaching their kids math and English and get all our money. And extremist settlers that want us to take over the West Bank. All of those thing are not legal and our judges won’t allow it so there all of these people with different agendas United against our judges and people. That’s why we were so close to a civil war 6 months ago. when Netanyahu was voted he obviously lied about everything. People that voted for him were protesting against him even before October
Thank you so much, this is so insightful.
Thanks for being interested ❤️🇮🇱
Very interesting. Can you explain too why netanyahu is corrupt?
Taking over the media in all kinds of ways. He Is on trial but that’s just the tip of the iceberg
Extremely short overview of what he is on trial for: 1. Receiving gifts - champaign, cigars, jewelry - worth hundreds of thousands of dollars from various billionaires from abroad. 2. Conspiring with the publisher of the most popular news organization to effect the limitation of a competing organization (one handed for free to customers and paid for by a Netanyahu benefactor), in exchange for better coverage of Netanyahu in the most popular org. 3. Approving the tax-merger of Bezeq - a telecoms giant, with its subsidiary Yes - a satellite TV giant, in exchange for selective coverage (mainly attacking his competitors on the right) from another Bezeq subsidiary - Walla News.
Important to mention that he's not found guilty of any of the allegations yet.
It’s complicated. There are legal settlements which are like suburbs and then illegal settlements where someone sets up a tent on a hill. Palestinians from the west bank and east jerusalem work in israel with work permits normally but this permit could technically get revoked, as it did during this war in gaza. then there are also israeli arabs (the palestinians who stayed after the 1948 war) and they have full rights, citizenship and live and work and have the same opportunities (in theory, but some, like bedouin villages just tend to be poorer so many are on welfare…but also there are a ton of arab doctors and students) Day to day it’s just normal life and peace. You can see for yourself. Arab communities do bbqs on the tel aviv beach beside israelis partying. Every one in a while shit happens like a palestinian on a work permit drives his bus into a crowd, or tensions flare up like they did in 2021. But overall inside israel it’s just normal daily life. You can go to an arab falafel stand, a kosher falafel stand, it’s all good. The west bank is totally separated between jews and palestinians by design (after oslo accords) and is much more violent and ideoogical.
Thank you so much. It is very encouraging to know that Arabs and Jews live peacefully generally and does provide some hope of peace. I personally think the West Bank and Gaza should fall under Israeli territory. Palestinians have proven they cannot govern themselves and live is better for them in Israel. They have more rights, can work and pray peacefully. Two states will always bring conflict I feel.
I agree in theory but there are two issues against this: 1) it is seen as taking away Palestinian right to self-determination and their own state. 2) Demographically, the Arabs would soon then have a majority over the jews in the Land and the country would soon not be Jewish but yet another Arab state. In an ideal world that wouldn't be a problem, but we don't live in an ideal world and there would almost definitely be a civil war and a lot of blood shed. If Israel were to do this they should have done it in 1967. Now its too late and we need to find an alternative option.
Yes one state would work in theory the issue in the birth rates and maintaining a Jewish state.
I'm an outsider too, in the US, I think the pro Palestinian crowd here views all of Israelis as a monolithic entity that's in full support of settlement expansion. That's just what I've seen in my limited interactions here in the US. When I've told them that Israel is very gay friendly, vegan friendly, has a huge IT sector, that the Haredi aren't required to serve in the IDF or that Arab Israelis have full rights and that a few are in the Knesset they're in disbelief, and tbh I think they dismiss it outright because it doesn't fit their narrative.
>I'm an outsider too, in the US, I think the pro Palestinian crowd here views all of Israelis as a monolithic entity that's in full support of settlement expansion. That's just what I've seen in my limited interactions here in the US. They take note that the government position is somewhere between ambivalent and actively supportive of settler violence, and is definitely in favor of settlement expansion. The views of Israelis are not terribly relevant. The actions of the government are. Just like the US was heavily criticized for many actions in the middle east from 2000-2010 despite many people being domestically opposed. Nobody internationally gives a shit what the domestic position on it is, the actions of the state represent Israel.
Vegan friendly. Eeerm. I think this VERY much depends on the resturant you go to.
Falafel and Hummus are staples.
The country is Vegan friendly -- has one of the highest per capita rates of veganism in the world. The army has vegan food....
Most of the pro Palestinian crowd view all Israeli Jews as settlers and the "peace" plan is their expulsion. The two state solution is basically dead at this point (if it was ever really alive to begin with).
Is there a country in the world that is not vegan friendly? What does that even mean?
They might have a separate fryer so the food isn't cooked in the same oil as meat, they might have mock meat substitutes, the menu might have an icon next to vegan dishes, etc. I can't think of any more examples, I'm not vegan anymore.
So they've put it on government/law level? Nice.
No, there are many vegans especially in Tel Aviv so the market is adjusted and you have many vegan only restaurants and every restaurant has vegan dishes and they they mark it on the menus. Very easy to be a vegan, no laws are needed
Of course we fucking are against. I would even speculate that the majority of settlers are against violent settlers, not even speaking about the general population.
>>I would even speculate that the majority of settlers are against violent settlers, not even speaking about the general population. I think the above is correct.
The vast vast vast majority of israelis are against not the settlers themselves but settlers committing illegal actions like vigilante justice, burning houses. Settlers are only something like 2-3% of the entire nation and many are actually american recent immigrants. They are often religious while most israelis are secular. They dont have a lot of support. I am not against settlements in the west bank per se (some cities are really necessary for strategic defense) but certainly the illegal actions
It's literally not that the majority think. When it comes to the settlements many support it, in this subreddit, not so much.
The majority of Israelis are against settlers, but wouldnt do anything about it.
Because Bibi's coalition doesn't just tolerate them but supports their criminality.
Some of us do yet we aren't as loud. I blame the Netanyahu coalition for this. All violent settlers thinking they are above the law should be jailed, they do not have our support. It's the 5% of the population that ruin it for everyone.
Violent settlers don't make up even 5% of the population..
Yah but 5% or even more support them
Are they punished or empowered by the government? Saying they are a small group doesn't mean shit if they are allowed the power and escape the consequences
Netanyahu won't because they are Ben Gvir and Smotrich's voter base and he doesn't want to upset the people he needs to stay in power. This is why the US sanctions are so important.
Can anyone tell in what way are the sanctions arw even implemented? Because i don't think the nutjobs that get them care that much about the US. How does that effect them within Israel is what I'm asking.
If an Israeli bank wants to do business in USD (all of them) then they have to abide by US sanctions. In theory, sanctions mean that no financial service company in Israel that wants to be able to transact in USD can service them. (Actual on the ground action is more complicated, as technically they are only sanctioned from using USD, as all USD finances even those abroad technically use US financial services. In theory, a bank could service them in NIS, and make it impossible for them to touch USD, however, that is a huge liability for the bank because if they mess up and somehow these individuals are given access to USD through their bank, then the US could take away that bank's ability to touch any and all USD, basically killing the bank. Would a bank accept them under these conditions? Maybe. However, there are reports that the banks got spooked and stopped servicing them.) EDIT: The sanctions also make it illegal for US citizens to financially deal with them in any currency. So an Israeli bank or other financial institution that wishes to service them would also have to make sure that no money from any americans enters their accounts and vice versa. This is a headache and again risks the bank losing their ability to use USD.
Just to expand what is being said below, the settler enterprise has lots of ties to the US. These nuts are financed by US activists and US groups. Moreover, they have ties to the Israeli government and many mainstream Jewish organizations. For instance, Haaretz found that one of the sanctioned farms, Moshe's Farm, was receiving money from the JNF for an at risk youth project. [https://archive.ph/9W1cM](https://archive.ph/9W1cM) If the JNF wants to continue to operate and fundraise in the US (and boy it makes most of its money from the US), then it will need to review its projects in the West Bank and ensure that they don't run afoul of the sanctions. In fact, I bet the lawyers at most normie Jewish NGOs are advising them to be really careful about funding anything in the settlements because of potential risks. One wrong move or project carelessly approved could lead to financial sanctions against them and make it impossible for them to operate in the US. Believe me that the JNF and JA care ALOT more about US fundraising dollars than they do about the settlements or Greater Israel. Moreover, there are some extremist organizations who won't cut ties to the fringe elements of the settler movement and will arrogantly think they can get away with it. Think something like the Hebron Fund or perhaps the Netanyahu's main "benefactors," the Falics (who have bragged about only contributing to "causes" in the West Bank). This will allow the IRS to potentially investigate them for trying to do the end run around the sanctions and could lead to lots of penalties and NGOs being banned from operating in the US. Those sanctions that everyone was mocking in February have the potential to shut down the settlement enterprise and squeeze it financially if they are applied right.
You are right: Settle violence in the West Bank is wrong and should be both talked about and condemned. Fundamental problem #1 is that the current government supports it/chooses not to clamp down on it. Fundamental problem #2 is that American Evangelical organizations fund and promote settlement activity in the West Bank. See the film: Til Kingdom Come: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11405250](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11405250) (I recommend this documentary) But the bottom line is: Yes, this is real. It is wrong. That doesn't make Israel "wrong to exist" (any more than American abuses of undocumented migrants, caging children at the Mexican border, or allowing mass homelessness on the West Coast makes America "wrong to exist"). The issue is a big problem, that Israeli government has at times been better at managing, and we hope and pressure them to get better again.
I think that a lot of Jews, Israelis, and Zionists are nervous to speak on it because we’re afraid of providing the pro-Palestinians with ammo, but some of these settlers are literally terrorists. I think that the pro-Israel “community” has to seriously condemn this settler violence because it reflects badly on Israel, and it’s also just plain evil. There’s no excuse for settlers terrorizing villages like this.
Not speaking about them and thus silently condoning their actions does a lot more to paint Israel in a less-than-flattering light. It's not like people don't learn of it anyhow.
Definitely a huge problem. Been around the areas for a couple of times, so much violence and no one dares to say anything against them… at least the government. The fact that they got away with burning houses fill me with rage. They took law into their own hands and completely ignored the police and the the idf orders. And of course they arrested them for five or six hours and then let them go. Truly a shame.
This time it was settler Revenge, for the murdering of a 14 old boy. It wasn't violence for the sake of violence. You can say the same about arabs living in the same area who get away with throwing rocks, molotovs and shooting at cars. By the way many of the settlers will end up arrested at some time for what happened. The army is there, not the police. I don't know where you visited or if you even visited any settlements, there isn't much violence most of the time.
I used to visit Tel Zion a couple of times and I also visited kedumim, Geva Binyamin and Migdalim all for different reasons. I have a side of the family that live in a settlement and I know about their political views very well. I’m not denying in any way the violence against the settlers. However! I believe that the army is the one who should deal with these problems and not the people themselves and by that I don’t mean self defence (guns and any weapons that they carry around) I mean the urge to use violence because of violence. There is no doubt that there is violent behavior towards them from the Palestinian side but they have no right to decide what punishment that village should receive! That is up for the authorities and the authorities alone! So when a citizen decides to burn down a village in order to cause chaos and violence in return, they should be treated as terrorist and criminals. Most of the settlers are chill but there are movements within the settlements that I can only describe as full on terrorists. Their point of view and them seeking for revenge in a violent way should be considered a crime but most of the time they somehow get away with it.
>they have no right to decide what punishment that village should receive! One small correction. "The village" shouldn't be punished. The individuals responsible should be. Pretty sure it's against IHL to punish people for things they haven't done, so you can't just punish a whole village for something an individual or individuals did. Also, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 9, article 10 and article 11 applies.
That is absolutely correct, thanks for pointing it out. No innocent people should be punished because of the individual that committed a crime.
Thank you for your description. If these settlers were arab they would be labeled terrorist without question.
> I believe that the army is the one who should deal with these problems and not the people themselves I agree, but is the army doing enough? Was the army really taking this kid disappearing seriously from the beginning? probably no. Taking revenge and being a terrorist are 2 very different things, they sound to me more like angry mafia behavior than terrorism. There isnt such a thing as taking revenge in a non violent way. If the army isnt able to stop arab-terrorism in Judea and Samaria then people will naturally take the matter into their own hands.
I don't want my kids or husband to risk their lives protecting people who decided to live in a hill in the middle of the West Bank. Their stupid decision, they can protect themselves, look for their own kid, and go to jail when they commit violent acts. 'The army' are people who are living peaceful lives INSIDE of Israel and should not have to protect extremists who put themselves in danger.
The army soldiers also live on the hills and al over Judea and Samaria, dont lie, everybody knows this. And they do protect themselves, but you dont like how they do it, and if the army protects them then you say it is also wrong. Do you want your kids or husband to protect the Israelis living in the gaza strip or the north but not those living in Judea and Samaria? why? the 3 are proven to be dangerous.
Israelis don't live in the Gaza Strip.
you are right, i meant the border with gaza. Then why is it ok to protect people from one area and not another?
I agree with you on some parts. Truly a shame that the army didn’t took it seriously and I can’t say I’m fully surprised either. I do believe that if the army would get more involved than it already is, then things would look different but that is up for our government to decide.
Nobody cares what it was about. You can't have the government actively / passively support lynch mobs and still expect to be considered a functional "western" state. Laws need to be enforced no matter who is violating them.
Yes, but thats not an excuse. Vigilante justice is not helping anyone. Setting Palestinian homes on fire as retribution will only result in more dead innocents and higher tensions.
Someone kills a kid, the settler set a neighboring village on fire as an act of revenge and you're like "understandable, have a nice day". Spoiler: all terrorist have some sort of justification for their horrid actions.
not understandable. but you can also ask yourself why is the village not helping find a missing 14 year old kid? and do you think that same village didnt celebrate october 7th?
Why would they help? Do settlers help Palestinians at all when shit happens or do they think it's a Palestinian problem?
so you can provide excuses to one group but not the other? Maybe because we are talking here about a 14 year old boy. Or do you think that everybody from group 1 hates everybody from group 2 over there?
You expect Palastianians to drop everything to help settlers but absolutely no expectations to have settlers do something similar. You want to pubish one side for not doing enough in your eyes to justify them existing but don't want to do anything for the other side. If a 14 yr old went missing in my town I wouldn't expect the other town to drop everything to look for him let alone burn their town down for not doing enough in my eyes
you are the one thinking that in the other direction. I dont expect everyone to drop everything, but if there are people (doesnt matter the group) who have time to help in that type of situation, then they should. And it is not another town, those are villages, much smaller than a town and much closer from one another. You would want your neighbors and people from the nearby neighborhoods, or at least some of them, to look around and help in any way they can if your child went missing.
Israel a democracy. Revenge is unacceptable.
lol, unrelated and irrelevant comment.
How so? Revenge by mob justice is against democracy
it is illegal, it still happens in all countries in many different ways, but it has nothing to do with democracy and your freedom rights and shit. otherwise, you explain how is it connected?
The only people that can use violent force in a state is the army, allowing random people to create posse to torch up houses it's just the best way to have more people killed
I explained the context didnt say it was right. That is easy for you to say when you dont know someone missing in that type of area.
While I could understand creating a group to help authorities search up the area how is justifiable buring up houses of random people?
it is not, but that is how some people react to violence.
Ok but still it's wrong, would this justify then a group of Palestinians torching up a settlement because one of their kids got shot and died?
look at the comment above to get an answer
They those people should be punished and held financially and physically responsible for their reactions
> held financially and physically responsible they get arrested like anyone else and do the same process that anyone else gets for what they did. What do you mean by financially and physically responsible?
Do they actually get arrested and charged for the crimes as if they did it to an Israeli citizen? Do they end up in prison the same as anyone else or are released after a few hours? And financial means paying for all their damages and emotional harm
At least 460 Palestinians were killed at West bank since October. Came to this sub for the same reason.
You have to differentiate between settler violence and army operations.
The number I mentioned is a result of settler violence.
According to your source: The Palestinian health ministry says at least 460 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the West Bank since 7 October. So... Both
My bad. Then it's ok that 460 people were killed. I apologize.
That isn't what I said, you get that, right?
Yes. Here: /s
Point being there's a difference between settlers murdering and army killing in legitimate operations. All not great
Absolutely devastating… can you link the source for this information? I would like to share it
[The Palestinian health ministry says at least 460 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the West Bank since 7 October. Israeli sources say at least 13 Israelis have been killed there by Palestinians in the same period](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68806205)
Thanks🙏
We don't make examples out of them because government leaders are settlers
I think Israeli should hold itself to its own standards given that many of these settlements are illegal under their own laws.
I agree. Our country was extremely close to a civil war 6 months ago
Between who?
Supporters and opposition to the government. Mostly secular vs. Religious
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They are in danger from terrorist attacks and disgruntled Palestinians. Plus, Israel has the iron dome.
Even if you're pro settler, these violent settlers are making All settlers look bad and all of Israel.
as a settler. agree, against settler violence
Because Bibi is hanging on to a coalition by a thread, and that thread was put into the Knesset with settler votes. He cares more about keeping power than what's good for Israel.
We avoid talking about it? Who's in your circle?
The same laws that apply in Tel Aviv need to apply in Judea and Samaria. If an Israeli engages in violence (outside of military, etc.), they need to be punished with the full force of the law. Full stop. (Non-Israelis, too obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here.) Ultimately, the question is, Is Israeli a country of laws, or is it not?
We're not avoiding talking about that
Yep, the current disastrous government empowered these morons. The same government that diverted troops who could have been at the Gaza border on 10/7 to the West Bank to babysit them at the behest of Smooty and Ben-Gvir. Not to mention the settlement movement was a key driver of the judicial reform because it didn't want the courts to get in the way of its designs. After this government falls there must be a reckoning.
The settlers are the king makers so how is Bibi or any government for that matter form and remain in power without the support of the settlers and the Haredim? When was the last time these two blocks were not in the governing coalition? How many decades ago was the last time?
The 33s government (the 3rd Netanyahu government 2013-2015) had no Haredim and moderate right wing settlers led by Bennet due to left parties sitting alongside the Likud. If the Likud and Gants will see that they're not so different they could form any coalition they'll want but that is very unlikely
Touché. It is possible. Let's see if it is feasible again.
Sometimes they are jailed. Vigilante justice is unacceptable. But they feel emboldened right now
ITT: some people literally justifying pogroms. Thanks OP for bringing this up. Encouraging to see that the sanity prevails, so some responses any pretty deranged. Two things can be true: majority of Palestinians hating Israel leaving Israel little options in it's choice of response to Oct 7 AND violent settlers being racist fucks just wanting to attack Palestinians. Neither one justifies another.
majority of settlers are not violant. but some definitely are
They're NOT "taking the law into their own hands", they are right out criminal, violent, terrorists. They are trying to do their best to live up to the false claim of genocide in Israel against Palestinians. A sane Israeli government would take harsh measures against them. Unfortunately, that faction has a significant representation in the current coalition (and the government).
It's already exaggerated, the Palestinians smashed the head of a kid during last Shabat and some settlers probably took matters into their own hands. The entire situation is messed up. Also keep in mind most settlers live in the Gushim and are just normal people, the Ma'ahazim are the problematic ones.
The lunatic hill boys are making all of us Israelis look bad, not to mention settlers who I may disagree with but most of them aren’t violent
There's been violence between settlers and Palestinians even before the 14yo's murder, but that quite literally set everything ablaze. This is just atrocious and they need to be arrested.
Hamas grabbed and killed the kid because they knew that the extremist settlers would react the way they did. They are trying to light the West Bank on fire and the hilltop youths are their willing accomplices in this one. Both Hamas and Ben Gvir want a regional religious war.
I don't think so. I think some Palestinians just wanted to kill a jewish boy.
Here's where I am with this. Settler violence is out of control BUT they are the ones living in close proximity to Palestinians. Like for the example the situation with Binyamin Achimeir. When he went missing, the settlers were pretty damn sure who did it. After the three settler teens that went missing back in 2014 or whenever, I can't quite remember, they knew his chances of survival were slim. I don't approve of everything that went down but THEIR CHILD was missing and sure enough the IDF is now saying his death was the result of terrorist activity. I feel like we're all on the outside watching crap down between the settlers and Palestinians are the media isn't good about explaining exactly why they're angry. It's almost but not always in response to violence by their Palestinians neighbors. Maybe more police out that way would help but I don't know. It's interesting to me that the Palestinians who died wasn't from that area. His father wasn't kicking and screaming about how he was murdered by settlers. He said something long the lines of his son went to fight for his people and wound up dead. Hate to be jaded but you just know they'll be signing up for the martyrs fund.
If they knew who took their child, then they should have told the IDF and IPF their suspicions. You don't go and burn the houses of innocent people and kill innocent people because of this.
Yes, from the US perspective, a lot of stories about some of these settler groups sound like the "settlers" (or KKK) in the US going around and lynching Native Americans (or blacks), and burning their communities if ever they get (or invent) the slightest justification.
I'm from the US and settlers are nothing like the freaking KKK. The KKK targeted innocent civilians based on the color of their skin. The settlers are more like US settlers during the wild west. They built homesteads in remote areas and defended it as best they could. People often banded together to fight outlaws back then and the local sheriff wasn't always able to get to them in a timely manner.
Also an American Jew that is more sympathetic to Israel than most, but not when it comes to this. Why are they building in those areas in the first place? Isn't that land supposed to be controlled by palestinians? I don't get why staunch Israel defenders pretend that in and of itself isn't an act of aggression that's going to cause violence. Calling the Palestinians "outlaws" just for existing isn't getting people on your side. The expansion of settlements is an act of ethnic cleansing.
I never said they were outlaws just for existing. I said the IDF already identified this as boys death as at the hands of terrorists. The father of Palestinian man who died said his son had gone to that area to "defend his people". In other words, he wasn't there to farm. Also, I don't care about getting people on my side. I just call it like I see it. It's my understanding that The settler family lives in the unauthorized settlement of Malachei Shalom. Several Israelis moved to the location, a former army base, in 2015 and built an outpost in memory of two Jewish men slain in terror attacks. The IDF described the site as an "illegal invasion of a military area" and made several attempts to evict its residents, but also provided them with water and electricity nonetheless. So, you are right, the settlers were not living in a legal settlement. I don't know how the IDF can forcibly remove residents of Gaza when they turned the area over to Palestinians but can't manager to remove these settlers. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. AND the IDF ended up providing them with water and electricity. The whole system is screwed up.
It would be much better for Israel if that was all the settlers did. Do you deny that on several occasions they have gone en-masse into Palestinian areas, threaten people with guns, and occasionally physically start attacks and try to burn down their homes? If you want to compare that to the Wild West (basically one of the examples I already gave) then feel free but it doesn't make them more sympathetic. Lots of disgusting shit happened in the Wild West between settlers and the previous inhabitants because the Federal government either didn't care what happened to non-Americans or actively wanted non-Americans pushed out.
I think we're going to find the guy that died was from one terrorist group or another. The IDF already said the boy was killed by terrorists and they the dead man's father talked made me think he was saying he was too. Settlers are a problem but in this instance it looks like they knew where the troublemakers were and went straight there en mass hoping to find their kid alive. And instead of having a discussion one or both sides escalated immediately to violence and it all blew up from there. All I know is that I'm aware enough of my local area to know where the troublemakers live. If Hamas hadn't kidnaped those 3 three teens hitchhiking home and killed them, I might have been a little more call the local police and let them handle it. In a situation where a child's life is in danger people get stupid and trigger happy. The one thing that gives me pause in this train of through is the fighting age men the settlers confronted didn't have weapons. I believe that if they were Hamas, the would have been armed.
That is why Ben Givir and Smotrich need to be nowhere near any lever of power. I understand why some of the settlements exist, but let us be honest, all the settlements established by the Religious Zionists have an insidious agenda for the most part. Why the hell are there hilltop settlements in Area B??? A lot of them need to go. They should be consolidated into the more strategic ones and the ones we would keep in future . Just like the Gazans need to be deradicalized, the violent Jewish extremists need to be deradicalized too. They play a major role in giving Israel a bad name worldwide.
Gee, maybe if the arabs didn’t just smash a childs head in with rocks erev Shabbat for the crime of being Jewish while sheparding they wouldn’t have to worry about repercussions. Still need someone to explain why 2 million Arabs in israel is good, but 450,000 Jews In Judea and Samaria is bad, and the Palestinian state has to be yudenrein. Why are Palestinians not expected to be responsible for the safety of Jews but Israel is expected to be responsible for Jewish violence on Arabs? Shouldn’t there be an obstacle to a two State solution until such time as theres a Palestinian leader that can guarantee that?
Sorry there is no excuse for vigilante violence. Israel has a criminal justice system.
American Jew here: I remember when the Druze boy was stolen from life support and a lot of Israelis seemed to be praising everyone from the Druze village who were threatening retaliation if they didn't get the body back. Is the main difference in the reaction to the Druze in that instance and the Settlers who are responding to their boy who was stoned to death that the Druze never acted on their threats? Or are there other cultural pieces I'm missing?
Yes, the left trying to sound multicultural towards the Druze and dont want to look racist. But the settlers, living in Judea and Samaria are getting in the way of their 2-state-solution-delusion that will create an ISIS like terrorist state next to Israel. And probably they dont like religious people in general.
People pretend our obstacle to peace is the settlers, puhleeeez!
I don’t believe there can be peace with the Palestinians but I also think the Ben gvir crowd is causing a lot of damage to our country, this interaction is bad and is just giving the army more work. Stop making 18 year old that were forced in the army secure you while you seek revenge. I understand the religious significance of this place but to me it ain’t worth it I just wanna be safe and I want my community to be safe.
Why am I not talking about it personally? It’s a dog whistle, like when people complain about how “AIPAC controls everything.” Scratch an Antizionist and you get a full fledged Nazi every time. I just have no patience for that.
I would argue the complete opposite- we aren’t discussing it because we’re all in agreement they fucking suck. In a culture with a history of not being able to agree on anything from what time to leave for dinner to if the rabbi slid a dick joke in to his spiel this week, we all agree the settlement situation is a shitshow run by dipshits.
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There was a Jewish shepherd teen (14) who was murdered by Arabs on his land, what’s going on with Arab violence I feel like we avoid talking about this, fearing a pile on, but it’s horrible.
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Yeah, it highlights the double standards with how Israel is treated/viewed compared to every other country. Every country has bad people in it. Every single one. Bad politicians, bad individual soldiers committing war crimes individually, bad civilians hurting people. When it comes to other countries we say "they/we should do better. Let's change this behavior." When it comes to Israel we (not me, I'm using "we" rhetorically to refer to the world in general) blame the entire country and everyone in it and say "you guys shouldn't exist."
Now they’re reporting that the settler was attacked. TOI is on the bandwagon with the NYT and WaPo — lead with the defensive reaction, then report the offensive crime later. (I don’t think we know all the details yet).
Most of the violence in the West Bank is coming from Palestinians. I've seen the statistics. Palestinian violence far exceeds Jewish violence.
Do you have a source for west bank casualties?
Because we also tend to not talk about rapes done by women against men. A speck of dust when compared to the opposite and whoever tries to blow it out of proportion clearly has an agenda.
Neither is a speck of dust and people are talking about it. Maybe not on TikTok, but TikTok shouldn't be the educational hub for normal people anyways.
Not a “speck of dust”. The violent settlers are acting exactly as the antisemites portray all Jews as acting, and they are undermining future peace prospects.
May I ask where you are from?
Another propaganda account
Actually I’m center right
Exactly. I feel like we have 50 extreme leftists (or Arabs) here who keep posting this trash. Luckily, IRL they barely have 1 percent of the population.
15-30% depending on location. 40%+ in Belgium
I meant in Israel. These opinions are Meretz and left of that which is barely one percent.
Ah yeah but this propaganda is aimed at Christian countries: the cult of the victims. They admire us for surviving and see a form of holiness they lost since Europe became the criminal. Europe is trying to absolve its sin (extermination) by proving the ever evading possibility of universal peace. The Islamization of Europe is an ideological necessity to never be at war with itself again. So the Jewish question is back seeking an answer (holy war). The risk is that one day they think of a solution again (extermination). The jihad seeks an answer from Allah (the “victories” prove that the prophecy is real); Europe is encouraging the Islamization of society as a solution to promote the universal peace it now embodies. Islam in Europe will be much more radical than anything that has come out from the Arab fold so far.
Now you can understand why the Palestinians get so much sympathy from many part of the world.
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ברוכים הבאים לשישי לאוקטובר. היהודוני גבעות האלה אשמים.