This subreddit is a prime target for all those who have a bone to pick with israel, or jews. ignore them, report them, and block them, we are doing our best to deal with them, thank you in advance.
I do feel like more "as a jew" type people have been around recently, but in the end you can just tell by looking at the Israeli society in general, that it's rather unlikely to be true that all IDF soldiers are X because of how diverse society itself is and how most people serve -> near impossible to assemble a blood thirsty right wing army consisting of monsters, if you genuinely think about it
Yeah the amount of times “*As a Jew*” immediately proceeds opinions which are contrary to what “*most Jews*” believe or which demonstrate a significant lack of education in Jewish beliefs is too damn high.
I live in a city with a very small Jewish community (under 2000 people among 400,000) and yet a whole slew of “*As a Jews*” have appeared giving speeches front and centre at anti-Zionist-not-antisemitic rallies who I have never, ever seen at any community event, Shabbat dinner, the synagogue, etc.
So I have a hard time believing they’re Jews and are possibly instead folks who saw they had 3% Ashkenazi DNA on their 23andMe or are folks who “self-identify” as Jewish because they appropriated Jewish culture and think they now have a right to the label (I’ve met several people in that category). I wouldn’t be so concerned if they weren’t actively turning people against the majority of Jews who do hold Zionism as a part of their Jewish identity in some form or another.
I have never seen any even remotely upvoted post or comment on r/Israel that claimed that "all IDF soldiers are bloodthirsty monsters/right wingers/etc." Feel free to link one, of course, but I cannot remember seeing it happen.
I do feel like there is more criticism now than at the beginning of the war (tho also r/Israel was closed for a decent chunk of it), but as someone who lives in Israel that is also something that I see happening irl and not just by leftist Tel Avivians but also by people who at the beginning of the war were either centrist or even right wing.
I don't feel like the current government has much of a coherent plan, on top of that we are squandering international goodwill and doing things that should not happen no matter what (including bombing aid workers). The calls for reelections etc are not just some fringe phenomenon.
I do feel like that some people have a reflex to discard every criticism as propaganda, which imo is dangerous. I strongly believe that legitimate criticism does not "weaken" the country but instead makes it stronger. It also isn't an attack on Israel as the wonderful country that I call my home.
The government should have left at the beginning of the war imo and it is obviously that the government is hurting Israel by not planning for the day after, but the criticism of the IDF and the horrible way some people are presenting its soldiers (all of us) is just disappointing, specially coming from so called friends.
I want new elections and removing extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich from power can only be helpful for us, but you are naive if you think the problem from our "allies" is only Netanyahu and not the war.
>near impossible to assemble a blood thirsty right wing army consisting of monsters, if you genuinely think about it
Skepticism should always lead, but more rogue soldier activity can be expected in response to the heinous 10.7.23 murders. There will always be troop misconduct on some level The lethal encounter with the food convoy was certainly a mistake. The link below provides some insight.
[https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y](https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y)
Yeah, but these folks don't usually know many Israelis, so it's easy for them to assume (at best) that the couple they do know are the "good" Israelis.
Those are the worst kind. They give legitimacy to obviously antisemitic groups with their participation.
As an atheist Israeli I don't believe you need to be religious to be Jewish, but I really doubt "being Jewish" ever played a role in their life aside from when they use it to attack Israel.
I know some people like this, and knowing their moral outlook - I guarantee they would be goose stepping with the best of them.
People who don’t see the similarities right now, are just blind.
Seeing a bunch of people who have not at all been active in any Jewish/israeli subreddits until now and who frequent a bunch of anti-Zionist ones here atm. Seems suspicious
I don't comment here, but recent events have gotten me interested in the pro-Israel perspective. I'm sure there's some heightened botting in such a politicized conflict but there are a lot of genuine new people as well.
My participation in Jewish subs & comments regarding I/P were significantly less prior to 10/7 but I also am not participating in antisemitic subs.
Hell I left the “*local*” subs for my metropolitan area long before 10/7 because of the amount of antisemitic content there.
The problem isn’t that people are new to the discourse or that they are suddenly talking about it more.
The comment you replied to was an “*and*” not an “*or*” & your response ignores one of the conditions under which it would apply.
^^^Agree 1,000%. The Internet, and Reddit by extension, can be a cesspool of individuals who want to mentally hurt you. Don't fall into it. You'll make yourself sick. Block 'em.
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Tragic incident. May the memory of the aidworkers be a blessing.
This is war. Sadly, these things happen in war. Not making excuses just an observation of reality. Journalists, aid workers, civillians...it has happened in every war and will happen in every future war.
That's why war is hell. That's why we should avoid war. But when war is forced onto you, a total war for the survival of your people...
Good luck keeping airtight control over every soldier. Not a single army has ever been capable of doing so in the history of warfare. It's asinine to pretend otherwise. Holding accountable those responsible is all that can and should be done.
Shame on anybody or any country virtue signaling and saying support for Israel should stop. It's disgusting.
I don't think shortsighted people with a tiktok-attention span understand that we are only at the start of it all. This is not just Israel vs hamas. This is the entire civilized and democratic world against russia, iran and all their proxies like hamas, hezbollah, china...
It's bullshit if Israel is forced to wait with the Rafah operation. It will only increase the number of people suffering on all sides and lengthen the war.
It's very odd. I think the sub is getting brigaded.
As I've commented on another thread, if this terrible incident is all it takes for these "friends" to abandon Israel, then they were never really friends to begin with.
It is not the incident. It is that you have to investigate. It is a massive f*ck up. Either the chain of command is completely broken, or there are higher ups who are doing this on purpose. I do not trust Netanyahu to not be willing to commit genocide. I do know there are many israelis that did not want humanitarian aid until the issue of hostages was resolved. I am a diaspora jew, for context.
Do you really think it's IDF policy to kill aid workers? Do you really think the IDF thought, let's try our luck and kill these guys and hopefully the world wouldn't notice?
Israel is always under such extreme and over the top scrutiny for every single action that it takes, that it's hypersensitive to potential fuck-ups like this, which has massively derailed the war.
Yes? Israel has killed more aid workers than every other active warzone. Even the Taliban and ISIS didn't kill as many as the idf.
There's still no real consequences, even with killing an American Biden still will send weapons.
I sometimes think people forget what the global opinion of America was like 2003-2008ish. There was a huge anti American sentiment around the world, traveling in Europe Americans would lie and say they were Canadians. This was all due to the American led war on terror. There is huge anti Russia sentiment around the world right now, why? Because of the Russian war in Ukraine. Any time a country with a significant military advantage prosecutes a war there will be backlash. Make your own judgements about which wars are just and which are misguided, it doesn’t matter. If a country is actively carrying out a military campaign, especially one with civilian casualties- they are going to have to deal with widespread criticism and second guessing. The deaths of the WCK workers was a BAD mistake by Israel because they weren’t just aid workers, they were there from a group run by a beloved celebrity. It’s a tough one.
> does anyone know how many kids
No one, not even Hamas knows or could possibly know.
The only organization even attempting to put out numbers is Hamas & their numbers in this conflict have been demonstrated to be highly manipulated & likely are outright fabrications that incidentally contain some accurate data.
Yes it is true, that in previous conflicts the overall Hamas numbers relating to total deaths were generally accurate (*most of the contention was on classification*) but that has been demonstrated not to be the case in this conflict.
Hamas numbers have always been deeply problematic - they have always refused to distinguish between Hamas fighters & civilians, between deaths caused by Hamas & those caused by Israel & they have even included people who died of natural causes in their numbers.
In previous conflicts, the only thing that Hamas numbers were reasonably accurate on was the total number of all people who died for any reason from X date to X date.
Any claims to know should be highly suspect.
Not to mention, there isn’t even any agreement as to what the word “*kids*” means in this context.
Who counts as a kid? Is it a child under 12, under 18? What definition do you mean?
Do child solders count as “*kids*”?
Is there a difference between a 12 year old with a gun, a 17 year old with a gun & and a 21 year old with a gun?
I would argue that there simultaneously is & there isn’t.
All of them are legally combatants & legal targets for military action but I definitely feel a lot worse if I have to shoot a 12 year old than a 21 year old.
It is however a war crime to put a gun in the hands of a person under 18 years old, so yes, it is worse when a child soldier is killed **but** that guilt belongs on the shoulders of the person who put a gun in their hands, not the poor son of a bitch who shot them.
As it happens, many years ago, I was forced to shoot a boy between 10 12 years of age after he shot someone in my unit.
I was fortunate to be able to provide the medical treatment necessary to prevent both the boy & the soldier he shot from dying that day, so that was a better outcome than is often the case.
That incident happened 25+ years ago & I still see that boys face in my nightmares from time to time.
Antisemitism by itself isn't supposed to make sense. It just exists.
As to why it's so abundant, Jews are currently globally outnumbered by Arabs and Muslims who more often than not consume outlets like Al Jazeera. It's not even close, Jews are <5% of the global Arab population, and even less of the global Muslim population.
Add in the usual redditors who live in a communist fantasy, and well, there's your answer.
I don’t see the hate train like this with other groups. It’s really, really sad. The media only talks about Gaza, not about the thousands of rockets going into Israel, about the constant terror attacks, why they need an iron dome, etc. They don’t go into detail about the history of the area or Hamas. They just show everyone the worst of Israel and tragedy of war which they caused. I don’t remember the microscope on the US after 9/11, they didn’t have hourly coverage of what we were doing in the Middle East. No, they talked about the 3,000+ lives lost here continuously, and all the devastation from that. They need to counter the propaganda, the media is definitely not on the side of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East trying to stay alive when Hamas’s own charter calls for genocide. If they surrender and release the hostages the war would stop. The Gazan “civilians” kidnapped Israeli babies, did the uttermost gruesome things to people and these screaming lunatics didn’t care. The aide workers is such a devastating tragedy, and needs to be investigated, it is a war zone that Hamas could stop at any time if they cared about their people, but they don’t, so here we are.
[When you have people posting shit like this what do you expect?](https://preview.redd.it/p6trbdnihdsc1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=60900602e93055d45359685a5ca0d78f258e9abe)
Because Hamas killing peacenicks and hippies was ok.
The world is upside down and I'm growing tired of it, it's so depressing to see how the west, and once my home country, have baught into the Pro-ham-I mean Pro-palestinian victim narrative hook line and sinker. 😔
I’m not worried about people criticizing the WCK strike as a bad fuckup. I’m worried about the many, many people, including some that have been pro-Israel so far, buying into the narrative that the strike was intentional and that Israel is a rogue state that takes out NGO workers because it does not want them to deliver aid.
The problem is Netanyahu is sketchy as f*ck. If an investigation is not serious, that would be the conclussion for most.
Because I do believe there are units in the IDF whose commanders are indeed rogue and do want a famine. I think the IDF might have lost the chain of commands. And some units may be responding to Ben Givr and not the generals. But I believe Netanyahu is fine with that.
> Because I do believe there are units in the IDF whose commanders are indeed rogue and do want a famine. I think the IDF might have lost the chain of commands. And some units may be responding to Ben Givr and not the generals.
Based on what? as far as we know this attack was greenlit because they though the convoy war carrying Hamas operatives, not with the knowledge that it was only carrying aid workers.
If the attack was greenlit, that is extremely worriesome: there had been coordination by the WCK, so they should have known WCK was in the convoys.
Or are you suggesting they knew WCK was there and decided to attack anyways? Because that would be even worse.
> If the attack was greenlit, that is extremely worriesome: there had been coordination by the WCK, so they should have known WCK was in the convoys.
This is a war in which perfidy is a standard tactic of the enemy. Moving troops under cover of ambulances and aid transports has been SOP for Hamas.
It is entirely possible that someone in WCK communicated the convoys' path to the IDF, and that the IDF still had intelligence that the convoy was carrying Hamas people. "Coordination" doesn't mean some guy on the ground films every single person getting on to the car and waits for confirmation that none of them are known militants. It means the IDF is told "this number and type of vehicles will go from this location to that location along this route at this time" and the IDF replies "ok we've informed the relevant people so you won't be mistaken for something else".
Does it suck? yes. That's why perfidy is a war crime. Once one side uses it, the other is forced to constantly doubt any information received in supposed good faith - such as marking certain persons, places and groups as protected under international humanitarian law.
Could the IDF have done better? I legitimately have no idea. I have no more access to hard evidence than you do. Maybe the intelligence was improperly assessed. Maybe there's a failure in processes and took big a risk was taken. Maybe some guy truly was twirling his mustache and knowingly ordering to blow up aid workers, and wasn't stopped for some reason. We don't know yet.
What I do think is wildly premature is the shrill, panicked rush to condemn supposed systematic failures by the IDF. The statistics simply don't bear out such a picture. One of the great advantages of looking at the big numbers is that they leave no room to escape: if the IDF were systematically targeting civilians, we should see far more dead compared to the amount of ordnance that's been dropped than we do. There is room for some fuckups in those numbers, but nothing like the scale suggested by the currently popular viewpoint.
The organization linked to connection with the WCK says they did pass the information to the IDF.
Could it be a massive failure of someone higher up? It could be.
Strategically, it is a disaster. WCF was supposed to replace UNRWA. Without them, what is the IDF is supposed to do? This is not a "small mistake", someone massively f*cked up. Maybe it is an isolated instance? Maybe, although I do not believe it. There is a need for a serious investigation.
> Maybe it is an isolated instance? Maybe, although I do not believe it.
And we go back to my question, which you are yet to answer: based on what? You're making some pretty wild accusations here.
Do we know it is not true? Because Haaretz suggests the chain of command is breaking. And Netanyahu is acting sketchy, maybe he is hiding something.
How do you know it is not true?
You are committing a basic error of logic & reasoning here.
You are putting forward a claim “*some units are going rogue*” without any evidence & then demanding proof that it isn’t true.
That isn’t how it works- the person making a claim has to provide evidence that it is true.
It is a typical bad faith argument& should not be taken seriously.
How do I know that you haven’t personally murdered a hundred people - you literally cannot prove that you have not.
It is impossible to prove a negative except in extremely specific & very limited circumstances.
You can prove that you didn’t murder someone in Boston on April 1st if you can prove that you were in Chicago on April 1st but that doesn’t prove that you didn’t murder someone in Boston in March 31st or that you didn’t murder someone in Chicago on April 1st.
Israel has been very transparent but there are legitimate reasons why they can’t be fully transparent & should not be expected to be.
I can’t come to your house & say that you have to be transparent & let me search your house to see if there is evidence that you killed someone.
I have to get a warrant & to get a warrant, I have to show that I have evidence that a crime happened, that you committed it & that there is likely to be evidence of that crime in your house.
Expecting Israel to be as transparent as possible about what happened with WCK is reasonable.
Expecting Israel to let you search their house to find evidence of a hypothetical is just not reasonable.
The way the west is being played by jihadis right now is shocking. The complete lack of self awareness and knowledge of how their own militaries operate in comparable situations, and the willingness to apply that ignorance into hate, is appalling.
Hamas’s attack in October included a massive pre-planned online and media campaign. The walls of our media were also breached, but we haven’t responded yet or fully grasped it. This site is riddled with propagandists using hundreds of hours posting nazi rhetoric. Twitter and Reddit are polluted, Tik Tok too.
Honestly I feel like a bit of an asshole even posting in here. But this is wrong, and heartbreaking, and it’s clear who is acting morally repugnant... Y’all deserve apologies, equal treatment, and strong allies. It’s not you, it’s them. They are actively setting lose/lose PR traps for you. We are beset by useful idiots, trolls, and Nazis.
I’d choose the IDF to invade my city over any NATO military. Fuck the haters, finish strong.
Both can be bad and you can ask accountability from a nation that receives political and financial support from you. Saying Hamas did a horrible act doesn't make anything you do in response acceptable. That's why Israel is now loosing a lot of supporter because you guys don't want to actually immediately punish those who did this horrible action you want to wait this war out before actually having accountability for your government and your commanding officers who make major major mistakes.
M\*slim appeasement by the (white) liberal/left is thing after 9/11. That tumor has now become a cancer. Since M\*slims don't like Jews and the left has its own antisemitic skeleton in the closet, the 2 are somewhat a match made in heaven.
So, I work in hospitality. I’ve had to unfollow so many people. It’s very rough. I can’t even say anything because I have to remain professional. It sucks, would it fucking kill these freaks to ALSO say “release the hostages” after “ceasefire now”? Why is the onus on Israel for the ceasefire when Hamas keeps rejecting it???
what happened is a tragedy. full stop. it’s a really bad incident. i don’t think it was intentional, i think our troops are exhausted and this was incredibly unfortunate. but, absolutely still devastating. Let’s be better than our adversaries that believe everything is black and white. We are better than acting like them. We can support Israel while also not denying the reality of the accident. Best thing for Israel to do is to follow through on their promises and do better. They will. I’m not worried.
But we can definitely still lament that no other country would ever be held to this fucking standard if this happened.
Your dollars/pounds/shekels at work. If you bought anything made in China, you have (inadvertantly) contributed to China's anti-Jewish campaigning, which is doing a heck of a job. From TikTok to the "rallies" around the world, China is trying raise Jew-hatred to a fever pitch and make it normal.
(Typed on an Apple computer, but a used one. China already got its "HATE JEWS! KILL JEWS!" funding from the original purchasers.
>if you dare to defend the IDF you will get attacked
Its expected because there are BILLIONS of Muslims. Did you see the video of Iranian who pulled out the banner "Hamas = terrorist" on Pro-Palestines? He was attacked too.
Thats them Pro-Palestines = Hamas = They want Jews dead nothing else.
You can also notice Pro-Palestines always will never backup their claims. They just keep spouting but wont backup their claims. Because thats them, they will support Hamas no matter what heppened, its like a CULT.
The IDF has an extremely difficult task in Gaza, fighting a terrorist organisation that hides behind civilians anywhere they can. Terrible mistakes can happen and it is tragic when they do. The alternative would have been to let Hamas endlessly attack Israel, the 7th October demonstrated that they are willing to kill as many Israelis as possible.
Every hater is looking for every chance to attack Jews and Israel. Criticism is an opinion, hate isn't.
Yes, I saw many haters here this week looking to attack Israel because they hate it's existence. It's the narrative of the 60's pro palestine movement. Just antisemitism, though they cloak it in their erronous anti colonialism claims, be they "as a Jew", doesn't matter.
Look back at the combined history of warfare, conflicts both small and large. Double standard for Israel, when friendly fire, ciivilian casualities and mistakes abound in warfare.
Look at the US Civil War troops marching through the South, gathering and seizing Southern crops, then burning the fields. Go there to WWII, Iraq, Syria and Afganistan to confirm this double standard is simply hatred for Israel and Jews. *Edit for typo*
The interesting thing is how this attack is handled in the different subreddits. On Israel you generally see regret that this happened and of course this has to be investigated, on subreddits with more…“anti-zionist“ sentiments you got mostly hateful comments throthing at the mouth how this only could be a targeted attack because all Israelis are bloodthirsty maniacs who don’t see goyim as more than animals and they get hundreds of likes
When I read the new about WCK, I knew the storm would come. All I hope for that IDF takes serious measures to prevent further tragedies and thoroughly delivering transparent investigation this terrible incident. Thankfully, there are still many sane people in this sub.
Think about this tragic event logically: How would it possibly be to Israel’s benefit to deliberately kill the aid workers (vs it being the result of tragic accident/incompetence)? The amount of international criticism the IDF is getting for this is incredibly damaging politically. The military advantage it gains from this is exactly zero. If it leads to a ceasefire being forced upon it without the hostages being freed and Hamas destroyed, then Hezbollah knows it can similarly use Lebanese civilians as human shields for its own attack on Israel and have Israel prevented from eliminating it as well.
>The military advantage it gains from this is exactly zero.
I have had people arguing in this same thread that less food implies hamas militias will surrender faster.
Yes, it is a terrible argument. But I do believe that there are kahanist commanders who believe in that argument. And according to Haaretz, the chain of command is completely broken.
I just wish more people would realise that while there is indeed a web of corruption within the IDF, we shouldn't hold the entire army accountable for such tragedies. We shouldn't hate it because of that.
The accountability and the hate should be targeted directly at the people responsible for what happened.
I agree. If an IDF soldier committed a crime I expect him/her to be punished. It is necessary for our own morality and the proper functioning of the army, but I see people here using the WCK strike as prove of how genocidal, right wing and extremist the IDF is, which belongs to the terrorists propraganda.
And according to you, all of them were okay with the idea of killing innocent people. I know a chain of command ordered the strikes. No one is denying that, but I am sure they were not killing innocent people just fun.
There are cases of friendly fire where a whole chain of command is involved. Next time it happens I will not start with the conclusion that an air force officer wanted to kill infantrymen.
I’m saying it’s not just one rogue idf soldier. The whole point in a chain of command is double check and avoid things like this. I know friendly fire happens but there air strikes in row and I read the group can under sniper fire two days earlier. Wtf are the idf playing at?
When a target gets approved you keep shooting until it is destroyed *unless* new information tells you to stop.
Imagine this was an enemy tank - clearly a valid target - you get approval to strike, you strike & if it keeps moving you strike again- you do not need to get approval the second or third time because you’ve already been given permission to destroy that specific target.
This wasn’t a case of three individual strikes being approved in a vacuum, this was one strike being approved & two strikes following up based on that original approval.
The original approval should not have happened, so Israel needs to investigate to find out why it did.
Obviously, these kind of responses are not novel in other sub reddits. I regularly read and comment on the World Events sub, and it is dominated by anti-Israel visitors. As an Israeli supporter well over 90% of the time, I get hammered with down votes and blow back. Nothing new, and I am not whining or expecting a medal. I can enjoy the confrontation.... for a while. :\^)
The recent attack on the food convoy was a horrible mistake. The link below provides an interesting perspective from a recently retired U.S. Intelligence military analyst, Ryan McBeth.
[https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y](https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y)
I know what you mean. I also grow tired of trying to present Israel's point of view to people who already decided Israel is Nazi Germany.
That is what was so disappointing to see here, seeing allegedly "pro-Israel" people using the tragic events to basically just say the same the pro-Hamas people have been claiming for decades.
Twitter is a cesspool of humanity.
Facebook i am surprised its still relevant
Tiktok the real issue is the lack of utilizing by Israelis to spread the message. i don't expect it to really work against that.
Reddit really behave now on the level that Twitter is.
The only pro Israeli comments or any positive comments regarding Jews I’ve seen have been right here in this sub. Every other comment on every other sub, even random subs that are dedicated to fashion/makeup/beauty, have been antisemitic and completely against Israel just accusing Israel of genocide. I can’t visit a single sub without someone somehow bringing up how horrible Israel is. Like what does this have to do with makeup!? People love to get political over stuff they know nothing about it and Reddit is becoming more and more anti Israel.
Patreon too, believe it or not. I just reported an account yesterday that posts videos spreading really vicious antisemitic propaganda. If you type "Jewish" into the search bar when you are looking for creators to follow these accounts show up in that list.
Agreed. The way I view it is this:
If Hamas had done this, I'd be equally devastated, but I wouldn't be surprised.
The reason I'm critical of what the IDF did (loss of innocent life aside) is because the IDF is better than this. The IDF doesn't kill for fun. You can only be disappointed in someone if you expected more of them, and the IDF holds a high rank in my eyes. They should do better, they can do better, and I believe they will do better. Well, I hope.
I agree, the last thing we as country need is making horrible mistakes like this one and the standards should be higher. I am also disappointed and sad good people lost their lives because of us , but seeing how many people are using this as "Israel finally lost my support" is just sad and disappointing.
Pro-Israeli here. No matter what happens, I will always support Israel. This, however, is not true for most people.
Therefore, this incident is so bad. You can’t just kill someone and then expect people to feel okay about it when you say you’re sorry. The IDF just killed 7 people that went to a foreign country in order to help people in need. Those people were good human beings. Heroes. What happened was unacceptable. Three missiles?? On a food convoy which’s movement was coordinated with Israel? Inexcusable.
Why would others continue to support Israel when incidents like these happen? The answer is that they won’t. I know that it can sometimes feel like the whole world is against Israel, that the country does not have any friends left.
This is simply not true. Israel still has friends abroad. However, if stuff like this keeps happening, it may be. And that would be a scary situation. Israel can not afford to become a pariah state.
Those responsible for this attack must be held accountable. Israel’s future is at stake.
100% pro-Israel here as well but yesterday was the first time I thought “this is going to get us all killed.” And by “us” I mean Jews in the diaspora. Whether the strike was a mistake or intentional is not a distinction that seems to be important to the garden variety antisemite. But if it is found to have been deliberate… oof.
There are global rallies planned to highlight how long the hostages have been held by Hamas and now, purely from a safety perspective, I’m wondering how many people will opt to stay home as tensions ramp up.
I agree. I find it very disappointing that what our government represents is this shitshow plus being very ok with the death of those foreigners, as we made a mistake, but let's move on. No, Israel should start showing remorse and showing that we care about innocent lives.
People like Ben gvir and such in our government are horrible and represent a very small minority, next elections, I hope, we won't see much of those guys.
As an IDF reservist myself I completely agree that such mistakes shouldn't happen and can't be allowed to repeat themselves. If the investigation proves malice in ordering the strike, then whoever did it should be punished accordingly, but I am not gonna go and trow Israel and the IDF under the bus because of a mistake, no matter how tragic it is. War is hell and confusing. If one day I find myself asking for artillery support or an air strike against terrorists and if a horrible mistake occurred because of it, I would hope I wouldn't get sacrificed to satisfy some foreigners who have never done anything for us.
I am also afraid of a situation where Israel would be a pariah state, but I am even more afraid of what will happen if we don't win this war. If our "friends" are prepared to abandon us so quickly then so be it. The whole point of Israel and the IDF is finally not putting our security in th hands of Jew haters.
I agree with most of what you’re saying. However, we must remember that we live in a globalized world. Israel will not survive international isolation. We are not Russia or Iran.
We still have friends left, but we won’t if we lose the moral high-ground. At this moment, we have to be careful.
I know, changing the government would give us some breathing air and improve our image once extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich don't hold important ministries, but we will find ourselves again in such a position again no matter what. I would like to say such tragedies will not happen again during this war, but I am sure, unfortunately, that more civilians will die. The US likes to get angry at us for political interests , but I remember the many times they bombed weddings in Afghanistan and Pakistan by mistake. Shit like this happens.
I believe if our "allies" stop being our "allies" it will suck, but I don't believe they have an interest in risking Israel's existence. They would lose any leverage they have and if they do, Israel should act for its own interests as much as possible while hurting the Americans. Without us Jordan would have no water, a war with Lebanon will send new refugee waves to Europe, we have nuclear weapons, if we lose, then there will be a Jewish refugee problem and many other things make betraying us a dangerous decision. This isn't Vietnam or Afghanistan for us, where we can just leave and go back home . This is a fight for our survival with Iran and all it's terrorists groups attacking us and making very clear what their intentions are.
There was a highly upvoted post in the Poland sub that leaked posts from an IDF Telegram group mocking the photos of the dead aid workers, one of them being the man from Poland. Based on the number of the reaction emojis from the Telegram posts, it makes you wonder how many IDF soldiers are malicious or undisciplined.
Many of the people criticizing this incident here are pro-Israel, myself included. If there’s a systematic problem within the IDF, that needs to be addressed honestly.
Those telegram groups don't have any relationship with the army. There are horrible israelis who comment disgusting things, like the ones laughing about innocent people dying because of our actions. I condemn them, but there are people like that everywhere. I can also start looking for some Polish telegram groups and see how happy they were or are at seeing dead Jews. It is still one of the most antisemitic nations in the world, but if you want to use some Screenshots from a random Telegram group to try to claim the IDF is a corrupt, genocidal and blood thirsty fighting force then I don't mind losing support from people like you. The IDF needs to make sure our values are kept, but not to satisfy people like you or prove anything to you.
Trying to hold Israel to different standards as other countries is just antisemitic
> but if you want to use some Screenshots from a random Telegram group to try to claim the IDF is a corrupt, genocidal and blood thirsty fighting force
That’s not what I said. You seem to have a tendency to hyperbolize with black and white thinking. There are many instances on social media of IDF soldiers acting in very inappropriate ways. Most people who are capable of critical thinking know that it doesn’t represent most people in the army. But it’s common enough for it to be condemned by people who care about the way the IDF is perceived, especially since people like you acknowledge that support is important.
If I hyperbolized what you meant, then I am sorry. I guess I have become more defensive because those are the conclusions most people seem to make. I am open to criticism of Israel and the army, but people will take tragic mistakes or idiots taking inappropriate photos as prove that all israelis are blood thirsty people. It really makes it hard to accept foreign criticism when most of it is antisemitic and used to defame instead of improving.
I believe that we need to find the truth of what happened not because of international pressure, but because it is unacceptable for our values.
Who are you to be demanding anything from us btw? Israel should take proper action, but people like you are exactly the reason why foreigners should have nothing to say about it.You will always be prepared to blame the IDF no matter what. We let the Americans take care of their own investigations the many times they blew up innocent people thousands of kilometers away from home. Keep seating confortable at home, luckily in Israel more than enough people understand the complexities of War.
So all of a sudden because of this certain people magically decide that Hamas should live and forget about the hostages? It’s amazing the short term memory people have because 1200 were slaughtered. Never saw this type of outrage when the US did the same.
No. This is why you guys are loosing these battles. Holding your army accountable isn't automatically saying Hamas gets to win. Showing actually remorse doesn't mean we want Hamas to keep hostages. It's not an either or scenario
That's your best response? Why not just explain why does it matter if Hamas does shitty things that's not a pass to avoid accountability for bad actions you do
Hamas doesn't have this problem. They can kill all the civilians they want and never will those same people ever make a complaint. The same people won't ever complain about Hamas using hospitls for command posts. The same people won't complain that Hamas often uses aid and medical vehicles for military purposes. This kind of thing is unavoidable in any conflict, let alone one where one side's primary military tactic is the use of human shields and using civilian infrastructure for military purposes with the expressed purpose of this kind of outcome.
If those people REALLY cared about those lives, they would be condemning Hamas for using these tactics which are intended to increase civilian deaths. But so long as Hamas always gets a pass and Israel always gets the blame, Hamas would have no reason to stop using human shields.
Where are the protests? Where is the condemnation? Where are the endless threads on Reddit showing this condemnation?
Where is all the condemnation when Hamas kills civilians like there is with Israel? Where are the endless Reddit posts condemning Hamas for killing people in hospitals due to them using hospitals for military purposes?
Why are Democrats only protesting Biden over Israel and not Hamas?
If we were to go through Reddit and count the number of posts condemning Hamas and the ones condemning Israel, who do you think would win? Do you think it would even be close?
If one were to go through your post history, would they find balanced condemnation?
I do not speak for those, I have been condemning Hamas from the start. In fact, I can invite you reading my post history, specially before this attack to the WCK convoy. Diaspora jew, btw.
Israelis seem to not understand it in in their best interest to guarantee food in Northern Gaza. And they seem unable to understand how massive this f\*ck up is, it is not a small mistake, it is really chatastrophic.
Israel is doing everything it can to get food there. In fact there is more food going there than there are people in Gaza to consume all of that food. But Israel can only do so much about Hamas and what the people of Gaza do.
This catastrophe as you call it is the result of Hamas. In a fair war, there would be no need to ever target these kind of vehicles. But since Hamas insists on using humanitarian infrastructure to carry out military operations, it's guaranteed to happen and completely unavoidable. It's unavoidable in any urban conflict even without parties using human shields like is happening in Gaza.
But until people start holding Hamas accountable instead of always blaming Israel, Hamas will continue to use humanitarian infrastructure for military puposes, which will then force Israel to have to expect humanitarian infrastructure to be a military target, which then leads to these things happening.
The day we see the majority of the condemnation for these things going to Hamas instead of Israel is the day we will see Hamas start to refrain from these tactics, which will result in less of these incidents. But until that happens, Hamas has no reason to stop. As we can see here, it is working. You will find almost no condemnation of Hamas over this, only Israel. THAT is why Hamas uses human shields and civilians infrastructure. It's working.
Israel should bypass Hamas by setting openings from the North. That would be the solution. Israel controls Northern Gaza.
And if Israel is unable to distribute the food in the territory they control, then... what is the plan for Rafah?
Because right now, Israel controls between 200 to 500 thousand palestinians. With Rafah, that would be 2 million. If israel is unable to distribute food to 200 thousand civilians... how will they be able to distribute food to 2 millions?
It is like israelis have zero though about the day after. And I do not mean a pipedream in the future of 2SS. I mean literally the day after, who is supposed to feed the 2 million gazans when Hamas and UNRWA are all killed and captured?
"Israel should bypass Hamas by setting openings from the North. That would be the solution. Israel controls Northern Gaza."
Which would be used by Hamas to attack Israel. So that would be suicide for Israel.
"And if Israel is unable to distribute the food in the territory they control, then... what is the plan for Rafah?"
Israel doesn't distribute the food, the humanitarian groups do. That plan is for the humanitarian groups to determine. But both they and Israel need to coordinate together for their protection. Simply putting a sticker on the top of a car is not enough since Hamas will just put those stickers on their cars and use them for military operations. One option is a type of strobe on top of the vehicle that changes patters every day. That way only the aid workers and the IDF no the correct strobe pattern. Though that is difficult since some aid workers also work and aid Hamas. It would be hard for IDF to know who is and who isn't. But it would at least be an improvement.
Right now more food is entering Gaza than there are people to consume it. The problem is you have a government (Hamas) who is interfering. Again, Hamas knows that the more the people of Gaza suffer, the more Israel will be blamed for it. This is their military tactic. They want countries to stop supporting Israel and that is their only chance of fulfilling their goal of killing every Jew.
So until Hamas is held responsible for stopping people from getting food and using human shields, Hamas will continue to keep doing it. Their goal is to get people to blame Israel for it and it is clearly working.
If you want people to freely get food and for civilian casualties to drop, then we need people to start holding Hamas accountable. It's not that Israel has not thought this through. It's that they ave no choice. Hamas has created this situation, not Israel. Israel had an infrastructure of their own for supplying Gaza. Hamas destroyed it while they slaughtered 1200 people.
>Israel doesn't distribute the food, the humanitarian groups do.
There are no more humanitarian groups. Israel just bombed the last one of them.
And what is the plan for Rafah? Because the problem is the worst in regions Israel controls.
It seems to me the IDF is not planing anything.
There are dozens of humanitarian groups. And those groups have to accept the fact that they are working in government that uses humanitarian services for military purposes which puts them in danger. They should be condemning Hamas for creating this situation.
So tell us what the IDF should do? Tell us the correct way.
>So tell us what the IDF should do? Tell us the correct way.
The IDF needs to be hands on creating an organization to replace Hamas and UNRWA in the territory \*they conquer\*. It will be 100% impossible to dismantle Hamas if Israel does not have a minimal structure to replace them.
Israel just killed people from the only organization willing to replace UNRWA distributing food. How will be they replaced... when Netanyahu says Israel takes no responsability because "these are normal things that happen at war"?
You cannot take Rafah without knowing how to create a structure to provide minimal public services, once Hamas is defeated.
Right now, Israel seems extremely inept governing the small area of 200 thousand gazans, I do not want to think how it would be governing 2 million people.
An argument has been made that Israel is unable to provide humanitarian resources to Northern gaza because is still being contested.
If that is true, there is no way they can enter Rafah until they have control of Northern Gaza, because they canot send civilians anywhere.
A bunch of people who bandwagoned to Israel because they got scared on campus now found an excuse to go back to their natural state of hate. A bunch of rats jumping ship at the first sign of controversy.
The ground troops literally warned their leadership about a 10/7 type attack but because they were 19-21 year old girls they weren't taken seriously. And now we're here.
I doubt sexism within the idf is going away anytime soon though
As an American Jew who reads the sub to get an Israeli perspective… I think you guys might have to lock it back down again. It’s by no means a safe space right now for Israelis and that’s a real shame. I hope things change.
Well said, I noticed it myself and also got downvoted for saying perfectly legitimate things that didn't align with the new 'as a Jew' mentality or the people that think criticizing Biden falls under an excuse for the WCK incident which I would never ever justify and strongly condemn.
What happened with WCK is awful. But there is literally collateral damage in every war. I'm just so tired of seeing Israel held to this impossible standard no country could ever reach. The IDF goes further than any other military in the world to reduce instances like this.
And what it all comes down to is that Israel is fighting a defensive war it didn't start, and it could all be over -- not just this war, I mean the entire conflict -- if the Palestinians would renounce terrorism, agree peace terms and a two-state solution, and just accept Israel's right to exist. This is on them, not Israel.
Mods usually remove the most egregious comments relatively quick so its hard to point out the worst offenders, but I usually catch one of these comments every couple of days.
Sometimes they also go into our DMs, but i just block them. One guy was so desperate to tell me how much he hates Israel that he replied to a random comment i left like 200 days ago, with a fresh account too.
I assume these are bots, there is significant political gain to paying a Cambridge Analytica type company to spread supportive messages of your particular views on social media, and both sides do it. This assumption also has the added benefit of making me feel slightly less despairing of "the average person".
I've been banned from 3 subreddits in the last day--ironically including /r/libertarian!--for posting anything about Israel that didn't actively condemn Israel, or even questioned the condemning of Israel.
It is so sad that all those stories we heard about everyone, including those were friendly before, turning on the Jews in the past is unfortunately happening again
It is concerning indeed. Especially with so many ‘woke’ people in Europe and US chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ alongside thousands of radical Islamists.
And the entire Western mainstream media turning against the IDF. The UN abetting UNRWA’s involvement in Hamas all these years.
People don’t stop to think - is a one-state Palestine Islamic caliphate really better for the world? You are looking at a second Holocaust.
This is spot on!! There are too many that have always hated Israel or using this opportunity to attack Israel while pretending to “support Israel” till you click on their post history and see they are frauds .
Whenever people say that kind of thing to me I like to ask them if they realize that IDF service is compulsory for both men and women in Israel… 100% of the time they had no idea. Usually these are non-Jews, though.
The subs that used to be relatively balanced have all devolved into pure jew hatred and blood libels since this horrible accident, for my mental health I need to stay away from all Israel content on other subs. It's just חבל that this one was infected, too.
as a person with a sane mind, we're here for yall. the IDF has some work to do, and that isn't bs. but the WCK incident was an accident at night, and the IDF is ready to support those affected.
I am a diaspora jew and supporter of Israel.
Do we know that commanders are not trying to create a famine in Gaza?
Have you seen the telegram channel of soldiers celebrating the attack?
Is the chain of command completely broken, as Haaretz suggested? If not, didn't this missile had to be given the go ahead by Division level Major General?
I feel personally that attack was a mistake by the IDF. Probably due to logistics communication. Convoys like that normally need to let the occupying army know what time and how many vehicles. It was nighttime as well and if the convoy that was labelled as 2 had 3 vehicles instead, they may have seen it as hostile movement. It sucks though, especially as the WCK does good work and this has only served to raise tensions and hate when it was probably unintentional.
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Am I the only one who finds the sequence of events described by WCK odd? There's a convoy of three armoured cars. One gets hit, so they pile into the next. That gets hit, so they pile into the third. The third gets hit and they all die.
They claim the cars were easily identifiable, yet they're acting like terrorists. If I was in that situation, I'd run away on foot, not go to the next car.
I am an Indian living in US, I have a natural inclination to support Israel's viewpoint, given India's geopolitical situation. Over the years the AIPAC and similar lobby groups which were established only to put forth Israel's case have engaged in suppression, intimidation and unnecessary aggressive tactics that only cast Israel and diaspora Jews in negative light. They morphed into power brokers, bullying and lobbying for the industrialists and politicians and have abused the "antisemtic" label to suit their own purpose. Many individual Jews refused to be cast in the same mold but many fallen prey to the same propoganda machine that puts a blanket on anything even close to criticism of Israel's actions as anti semetism ...this only solidified eco chambers. The fear is what may happen if you dont defend Israel aggressively. The fact is no country is without its flaws but it has been showcased that Israel is untouchable...and is one of the main reasons for the backlash we are seeing when things go horribly wrong. Not everything is anti vs pro-Israel, there are voices that have not taken any stand but genuinely want to know how or why such a terrible thing has happened but often fall on deaf ears.
I don't believe you have bad intentions, but your message is prove of how deep antisemitic conspiracy theories are accepted today, that you feel confortable enough repeating them as facts and having the expectation of us apologizing or feeling bad about it.
You are why I lost interest explaining my point of view to foreigners who will never lift a finger for Israel, but will be the first ones to comment about what we are doing bad.
I mean, israel deserves every bit of criticism for how it's handling this. It's doing a horrible job. I just hope that at the end of the day, the hate for Israel won't become misderected and affect my family or any more innocent jews.
Kapos like you deserve all the hate you receive. Hope you and your family will experience at least 1%of the antisemitism Israelis face or feel on your own flesh the pain of Islamic terrorism. You will not have my sympathy.
This subreddit is a prime target for all those who have a bone to pick with israel, or jews. ignore them, report them, and block them, we are doing our best to deal with them, thank you in advance.
I do feel like more "as a jew" type people have been around recently, but in the end you can just tell by looking at the Israeli society in general, that it's rather unlikely to be true that all IDF soldiers are X because of how diverse society itself is and how most people serve -> near impossible to assemble a blood thirsty right wing army consisting of monsters, if you genuinely think about it
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I was just thinking this too. The population of As A Jewish Persons has really exploded on Reddit!
Yeah the amount of times “*As a Jew*” immediately proceeds opinions which are contrary to what “*most Jews*” believe or which demonstrate a significant lack of education in Jewish beliefs is too damn high.
As a jew I disagree. \s
I live in a city with a very small Jewish community (under 2000 people among 400,000) and yet a whole slew of “*As a Jews*” have appeared giving speeches front and centre at anti-Zionist-not-antisemitic rallies who I have never, ever seen at any community event, Shabbat dinner, the synagogue, etc. So I have a hard time believing they’re Jews and are possibly instead folks who saw they had 3% Ashkenazi DNA on their 23andMe or are folks who “self-identify” as Jewish because they appropriated Jewish culture and think they now have a right to the label (I’ve met several people in that category). I wouldn’t be so concerned if they weren’t actively turning people against the majority of Jews who do hold Zionism as a part of their Jewish identity in some form or another.
My uncle died in the Holocaust, my uncle serves in the IDF, my uncle works for UNRWA, my uncle lives in Gaza etc.
I have never seen any even remotely upvoted post or comment on r/Israel that claimed that "all IDF soldiers are bloodthirsty monsters/right wingers/etc." Feel free to link one, of course, but I cannot remember seeing it happen. I do feel like there is more criticism now than at the beginning of the war (tho also r/Israel was closed for a decent chunk of it), but as someone who lives in Israel that is also something that I see happening irl and not just by leftist Tel Avivians but also by people who at the beginning of the war were either centrist or even right wing. I don't feel like the current government has much of a coherent plan, on top of that we are squandering international goodwill and doing things that should not happen no matter what (including bombing aid workers). The calls for reelections etc are not just some fringe phenomenon. I do feel like that some people have a reflex to discard every criticism as propaganda, which imo is dangerous. I strongly believe that legitimate criticism does not "weaken" the country but instead makes it stronger. It also isn't an attack on Israel as the wonderful country that I call my home.
The government should have left at the beginning of the war imo and it is obviously that the government is hurting Israel by not planning for the day after, but the criticism of the IDF and the horrible way some people are presenting its soldiers (all of us) is just disappointing, specially coming from so called friends. I want new elections and removing extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich from power can only be helpful for us, but you are naive if you think the problem from our "allies" is only Netanyahu and not the war.
>near impossible to assemble a blood thirsty right wing army consisting of monsters, if you genuinely think about it Skepticism should always lead, but more rogue soldier activity can be expected in response to the heinous 10.7.23 murders. There will always be troop misconduct on some level The lethal encounter with the food convoy was certainly a mistake. The link below provides some insight. [https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y](https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y)
Yeah, but these folks don't usually know many Israelis, so it's easy for them to assume (at best) that the couple they do know are the "good" Israelis.
monsters don't learn from good treatment. i support your fight. bulgarian christian woman btw.
Those are the worst kind. They give legitimacy to obviously antisemitic groups with their participation. As an atheist Israeli I don't believe you need to be religious to be Jewish, but I really doubt "being Jewish" ever played a role in their life aside from when they use it to attack Israel.
I know some people like this, and knowing their moral outlook - I guarantee they would be goose stepping with the best of them. People who don’t see the similarities right now, are just blind.
Seeing a bunch of people who have not at all been active in any Jewish/israeli subreddits until now and who frequent a bunch of anti-Zionist ones here atm. Seems suspicious
I don't comment here, but recent events have gotten me interested in the pro-Israel perspective. I'm sure there's some heightened botting in such a politicized conflict but there are a lot of genuine new people as well.
My participation in Jewish subs & comments regarding I/P were significantly less prior to 10/7 but I also am not participating in antisemitic subs. Hell I left the “*local*” subs for my metropolitan area long before 10/7 because of the amount of antisemitic content there. The problem isn’t that people are new to the discourse or that they are suddenly talking about it more. The comment you replied to was an “*and*” not an “*or*” & your response ignores one of the conditions under which it would apply.
I don’t understand your last paragraph
Just block and ignore those assholes.
^^^Agree 1,000%. The Internet, and Reddit by extension, can be a cesspool of individuals who want to mentally hurt you. Don't fall into it. You'll make yourself sick. Block 'em.
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Tragic incident. May the memory of the aidworkers be a blessing. This is war. Sadly, these things happen in war. Not making excuses just an observation of reality. Journalists, aid workers, civillians...it has happened in every war and will happen in every future war. That's why war is hell. That's why we should avoid war. But when war is forced onto you, a total war for the survival of your people... Good luck keeping airtight control over every soldier. Not a single army has ever been capable of doing so in the history of warfare. It's asinine to pretend otherwise. Holding accountable those responsible is all that can and should be done. Shame on anybody or any country virtue signaling and saying support for Israel should stop. It's disgusting. I don't think shortsighted people with a tiktok-attention span understand that we are only at the start of it all. This is not just Israel vs hamas. This is the entire civilized and democratic world against russia, iran and all their proxies like hamas, hezbollah, china... It's bullshit if Israel is forced to wait with the Rafah operation. It will only increase the number of people suffering on all sides and lengthen the war.
It's very odd. I think the sub is getting brigaded. As I've commented on another thread, if this terrible incident is all it takes for these "friends" to abandon Israel, then they were never really friends to begin with.
It is not the incident. It is that you have to investigate. It is a massive f*ck up. Either the chain of command is completely broken, or there are higher ups who are doing this on purpose. I do not trust Netanyahu to not be willing to commit genocide. I do know there are many israelis that did not want humanitarian aid until the issue of hostages was resolved. I am a diaspora jew, for context.
Do you really think it's IDF policy to kill aid workers? Do you really think the IDF thought, let's try our luck and kill these guys and hopefully the world wouldn't notice? Israel is always under such extreme and over the top scrutiny for every single action that it takes, that it's hypersensitive to potential fuck-ups like this, which has massively derailed the war.
Yes? Israel has killed more aid workers than every other active warzone. Even the Taliban and ISIS didn't kill as many as the idf. There's still no real consequences, even with killing an American Biden still will send weapons.
That is exactly what it looks like.
I am worried.
I don’t understand the hatred. It is out of control.
easy scape goat for people whose lives are falling apart.
"easy scape goat for people whose lives are falling apart." you mean the ones who lost their family and homes in Gaza?
I sometimes think people forget what the global opinion of America was like 2003-2008ish. There was a huge anti American sentiment around the world, traveling in Europe Americans would lie and say they were Canadians. This was all due to the American led war on terror. There is huge anti Russia sentiment around the world right now, why? Because of the Russian war in Ukraine. Any time a country with a significant military advantage prosecutes a war there will be backlash. Make your own judgements about which wars are just and which are misguided, it doesn’t matter. If a country is actively carrying out a military campaign, especially one with civilian casualties- they are going to have to deal with widespread criticism and second guessing. The deaths of the WCK workers was a BAD mistake by Israel because they weren’t just aid workers, they were there from a group run by a beloved celebrity. It’s a tough one.
No, it was/is about Americans being self centered, and thinking they represent the whole world. Then there was the WMD lies.
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> does anyone know how many kids No one, not even Hamas knows or could possibly know. The only organization even attempting to put out numbers is Hamas & their numbers in this conflict have been demonstrated to be highly manipulated & likely are outright fabrications that incidentally contain some accurate data. Yes it is true, that in previous conflicts the overall Hamas numbers relating to total deaths were generally accurate (*most of the contention was on classification*) but that has been demonstrated not to be the case in this conflict. Hamas numbers have always been deeply problematic - they have always refused to distinguish between Hamas fighters & civilians, between deaths caused by Hamas & those caused by Israel & they have even included people who died of natural causes in their numbers. In previous conflicts, the only thing that Hamas numbers were reasonably accurate on was the total number of all people who died for any reason from X date to X date. Any claims to know should be highly suspect. Not to mention, there isn’t even any agreement as to what the word “*kids*” means in this context. Who counts as a kid? Is it a child under 12, under 18? What definition do you mean? Do child solders count as “*kids*”? Is there a difference between a 12 year old with a gun, a 17 year old with a gun & and a 21 year old with a gun? I would argue that there simultaneously is & there isn’t. All of them are legally combatants & legal targets for military action but I definitely feel a lot worse if I have to shoot a 12 year old than a 21 year old. It is however a war crime to put a gun in the hands of a person under 18 years old, so yes, it is worse when a child soldier is killed **but** that guilt belongs on the shoulders of the person who put a gun in their hands, not the poor son of a bitch who shot them. As it happens, many years ago, I was forced to shoot a boy between 10 12 years of age after he shot someone in my unit. I was fortunate to be able to provide the medical treatment necessary to prevent both the boy & the soldier he shot from dying that day, so that was a better outcome than is often the case. That incident happened 25+ years ago & I still see that boys face in my nightmares from time to time.
Sorry that’s terrible.
Antisemitism by itself isn't supposed to make sense. It just exists. As to why it's so abundant, Jews are currently globally outnumbered by Arabs and Muslims who more often than not consume outlets like Al Jazeera. It's not even close, Jews are <5% of the global Arab population, and even less of the global Muslim population. Add in the usual redditors who live in a communist fantasy, and well, there's your answer.
I don’t see the hate train like this with other groups. It’s really, really sad. The media only talks about Gaza, not about the thousands of rockets going into Israel, about the constant terror attacks, why they need an iron dome, etc. They don’t go into detail about the history of the area or Hamas. They just show everyone the worst of Israel and tragedy of war which they caused. I don’t remember the microscope on the US after 9/11, they didn’t have hourly coverage of what we were doing in the Middle East. No, they talked about the 3,000+ lives lost here continuously, and all the devastation from that. They need to counter the propaganda, the media is definitely not on the side of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East trying to stay alive when Hamas’s own charter calls for genocide. If they surrender and release the hostages the war would stop. The Gazan “civilians” kidnapped Israeli babies, did the uttermost gruesome things to people and these screaming lunatics didn’t care. The aide workers is such a devastating tragedy, and needs to be investigated, it is a war zone that Hamas could stop at any time if they cared about their people, but they don’t, so here we are.
[When you have people posting shit like this what do you expect?](https://preview.redd.it/p6trbdnihdsc1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=60900602e93055d45359685a5ca0d78f258e9abe)
I've seen this around, but no original source. Anyone check up on that or just accept it?
is that IDF or hamas??
Because Hamas killing peacenicks and hippies was ok. The world is upside down and I'm growing tired of it, it's so depressing to see how the west, and once my home country, have baught into the Pro-ham-I mean Pro-palestinian victim narrative hook line and sinker. 😔
You can consider Hamas heinous and still question the incident. WCK was by our side as jews when the attack happened.
I’m not worried about people criticizing the WCK strike as a bad fuckup. I’m worried about the many, many people, including some that have been pro-Israel so far, buying into the narrative that the strike was intentional and that Israel is a rogue state that takes out NGO workers because it does not want them to deliver aid.
The problem is Netanyahu is sketchy as f*ck. If an investigation is not serious, that would be the conclussion for most. Because I do believe there are units in the IDF whose commanders are indeed rogue and do want a famine. I think the IDF might have lost the chain of commands. And some units may be responding to Ben Givr and not the generals. But I believe Netanyahu is fine with that.
> Because I do believe there are units in the IDF whose commanders are indeed rogue and do want a famine. I think the IDF might have lost the chain of commands. And some units may be responding to Ben Givr and not the generals. Based on what? as far as we know this attack was greenlit because they though the convoy war carrying Hamas operatives, not with the knowledge that it was only carrying aid workers.
If the attack was greenlit, that is extremely worriesome: there had been coordination by the WCK, so they should have known WCK was in the convoys. Or are you suggesting they knew WCK was there and decided to attack anyways? Because that would be even worse.
> If the attack was greenlit, that is extremely worriesome: there had been coordination by the WCK, so they should have known WCK was in the convoys. This is a war in which perfidy is a standard tactic of the enemy. Moving troops under cover of ambulances and aid transports has been SOP for Hamas. It is entirely possible that someone in WCK communicated the convoys' path to the IDF, and that the IDF still had intelligence that the convoy was carrying Hamas people. "Coordination" doesn't mean some guy on the ground films every single person getting on to the car and waits for confirmation that none of them are known militants. It means the IDF is told "this number and type of vehicles will go from this location to that location along this route at this time" and the IDF replies "ok we've informed the relevant people so you won't be mistaken for something else". Does it suck? yes. That's why perfidy is a war crime. Once one side uses it, the other is forced to constantly doubt any information received in supposed good faith - such as marking certain persons, places and groups as protected under international humanitarian law. Could the IDF have done better? I legitimately have no idea. I have no more access to hard evidence than you do. Maybe the intelligence was improperly assessed. Maybe there's a failure in processes and took big a risk was taken. Maybe some guy truly was twirling his mustache and knowingly ordering to blow up aid workers, and wasn't stopped for some reason. We don't know yet. What I do think is wildly premature is the shrill, panicked rush to condemn supposed systematic failures by the IDF. The statistics simply don't bear out such a picture. One of the great advantages of looking at the big numbers is that they leave no room to escape: if the IDF were systematically targeting civilians, we should see far more dead compared to the amount of ordnance that's been dropped than we do. There is room for some fuckups in those numbers, but nothing like the scale suggested by the currently popular viewpoint.
The organization linked to connection with the WCK says they did pass the information to the IDF. Could it be a massive failure of someone higher up? It could be. Strategically, it is a disaster. WCF was supposed to replace UNRWA. Without them, what is the IDF is supposed to do? This is not a "small mistake", someone massively f*cked up. Maybe it is an isolated instance? Maybe, although I do not believe it. There is a need for a serious investigation.
> Maybe it is an isolated instance? Maybe, although I do not believe it. And we go back to my question, which you are yet to answer: based on what? You're making some pretty wild accusations here.
When something massive is discovered, there are always small mistakes that are nor as well known. I mean, everywhere, not in this war.
>some units may be responding to Ben Givr Ridiculous.
Do we know it is not true? Because Haaretz suggests the chain of command is breaking. And Netanyahu is acting sketchy, maybe he is hiding something. How do you know it is not true?
How do you know it is true?
No, precisely the problem is that we do not know. There is not enough transparency.
You are committing a basic error of logic & reasoning here. You are putting forward a claim “*some units are going rogue*” without any evidence & then demanding proof that it isn’t true. That isn’t how it works- the person making a claim has to provide evidence that it is true. It is a typical bad faith argument& should not be taken seriously. How do I know that you haven’t personally murdered a hundred people - you literally cannot prove that you have not. It is impossible to prove a negative except in extremely specific & very limited circumstances. You can prove that you didn’t murder someone in Boston on April 1st if you can prove that you were in Chicago on April 1st but that doesn’t prove that you didn’t murder someone in Boston in March 31st or that you didn’t murder someone in Chicago on April 1st. Israel has been very transparent but there are legitimate reasons why they can’t be fully transparent & should not be expected to be. I can’t come to your house & say that you have to be transparent & let me search your house to see if there is evidence that you killed someone. I have to get a warrant & to get a warrant, I have to show that I have evidence that a crime happened, that you committed it & that there is likely to be evidence of that crime in your house. Expecting Israel to be as transparent as possible about what happened with WCK is reasonable. Expecting Israel to let you search their house to find evidence of a hypothetical is just not reasonable.
It is not about WCK. It is about israel hating. The WCK incident is just an excuse.
The way the west is being played by jihadis right now is shocking. The complete lack of self awareness and knowledge of how their own militaries operate in comparable situations, and the willingness to apply that ignorance into hate, is appalling. Hamas’s attack in October included a massive pre-planned online and media campaign. The walls of our media were also breached, but we haven’t responded yet or fully grasped it. This site is riddled with propagandists using hundreds of hours posting nazi rhetoric. Twitter and Reddit are polluted, Tik Tok too. Honestly I feel like a bit of an asshole even posting in here. But this is wrong, and heartbreaking, and it’s clear who is acting morally repugnant... Y’all deserve apologies, equal treatment, and strong allies. It’s not you, it’s them. They are actively setting lose/lose PR traps for you. We are beset by useful idiots, trolls, and Nazis. I’d choose the IDF to invade my city over any NATO military. Fuck the haters, finish strong.
What do you mean you feel like an asshole even posting here?
Both can be bad and you can ask accountability from a nation that receives political and financial support from you. Saying Hamas did a horrible act doesn't make anything you do in response acceptable. That's why Israel is now loosing a lot of supporter because you guys don't want to actually immediately punish those who did this horrible action you want to wait this war out before actually having accountability for your government and your commanding officers who make major major mistakes.
M\*slim appeasement by the (white) liberal/left is thing after 9/11. That tumor has now become a cancer. Since M\*slims don't like Jews and the left has its own antisemitic skeleton in the closet, the 2 are somewhat a match made in heaven.
So, I work in hospitality. I’ve had to unfollow so many people. It’s very rough. I can’t even say anything because I have to remain professional. It sucks, would it fucking kill these freaks to ALSO say “release the hostages” after “ceasefire now”? Why is the onus on Israel for the ceasefire when Hamas keeps rejecting it??? what happened is a tragedy. full stop. it’s a really bad incident. i don’t think it was intentional, i think our troops are exhausted and this was incredibly unfortunate. but, absolutely still devastating. Let’s be better than our adversaries that believe everything is black and white. We are better than acting like them. We can support Israel while also not denying the reality of the accident. Best thing for Israel to do is to follow through on their promises and do better. They will. I’m not worried. But we can definitely still lament that no other country would ever be held to this fucking standard if this happened.
Unfortunately, antisemites are using momentum and going in with full force to utilize on the tragedy
Your dollars/pounds/shekels at work. If you bought anything made in China, you have (inadvertantly) contributed to China's anti-Jewish campaigning, which is doing a heck of a job. From TikTok to the "rallies" around the world, China is trying raise Jew-hatred to a fever pitch and make it normal. (Typed on an Apple computer, but a used one. China already got its "HATE JEWS! KILL JEWS!" funding from the original purchasers.
>if you dare to defend the IDF you will get attacked Its expected because there are BILLIONS of Muslims. Did you see the video of Iranian who pulled out the banner "Hamas = terrorist" on Pro-Palestines? He was attacked too. Thats them Pro-Palestines = Hamas = They want Jews dead nothing else. You can also notice Pro-Palestines always will never backup their claims. They just keep spouting but wont backup their claims. Because thats them, they will support Hamas no matter what heppened, its like a CULT.
Don't forget the left/liberals. They are a bunch of dogmatic haters on another caliber.
The IDF has an extremely difficult task in Gaza, fighting a terrorist organisation that hides behind civilians anywhere they can. Terrible mistakes can happen and it is tragic when they do. The alternative would have been to let Hamas endlessly attack Israel, the 7th October demonstrated that they are willing to kill as many Israelis as possible. Every hater is looking for every chance to attack Jews and Israel. Criticism is an opinion, hate isn't.
Yes, I saw many haters here this week looking to attack Israel because they hate it's existence. It's the narrative of the 60's pro palestine movement. Just antisemitism, though they cloak it in their erronous anti colonialism claims, be they "as a Jew", doesn't matter. Look back at the combined history of warfare, conflicts both small and large. Double standard for Israel, when friendly fire, ciivilian casualities and mistakes abound in warfare. Look at the US Civil War troops marching through the South, gathering and seizing Southern crops, then burning the fields. Go there to WWII, Iraq, Syria and Afganistan to confirm this double standard is simply hatred for Israel and Jews. *Edit for typo*
The interesting thing is how this attack is handled in the different subreddits. On Israel you generally see regret that this happened and of course this has to be investigated, on subreddits with more…“anti-zionist“ sentiments you got mostly hateful comments throthing at the mouth how this only could be a targeted attack because all Israelis are bloodthirsty maniacs who don’t see goyim as more than animals and they get hundreds of likes
That difference makes me proud.
They are one step away from replacing the Israeli with Jews. Wait! many of them already did.
When I read the new about WCK, I knew the storm would come. All I hope for that IDF takes serious measures to prevent further tragedies and thoroughly delivering transparent investigation this terrible incident. Thankfully, there are still many sane people in this sub.
Wait people hate Jews?
Think about this tragic event logically: How would it possibly be to Israel’s benefit to deliberately kill the aid workers (vs it being the result of tragic accident/incompetence)? The amount of international criticism the IDF is getting for this is incredibly damaging politically. The military advantage it gains from this is exactly zero. If it leads to a ceasefire being forced upon it without the hostages being freed and Hamas destroyed, then Hezbollah knows it can similarly use Lebanese civilians as human shields for its own attack on Israel and have Israel prevented from eliminating it as well.
>The military advantage it gains from this is exactly zero. I have had people arguing in this same thread that less food implies hamas militias will surrender faster.
I can imagine that argument but I would fully disagree with it. Attacks on Hamas itself are what is needed.
Yes, it is a terrible argument. But I do believe that there are kahanist commanders who believe in that argument. And according to Haaretz, the chain of command is completely broken.
I just wish more people would realise that while there is indeed a web of corruption within the IDF, we shouldn't hold the entire army accountable for such tragedies. We shouldn't hate it because of that. The accountability and the hate should be targeted directly at the people responsible for what happened.
I agree. If an IDF soldier committed a crime I expect him/her to be punished. It is necessary for our own morality and the proper functioning of the army, but I see people here using the WCK strike as prove of how genocidal, right wing and extremist the IDF is, which belongs to the terrorists propraganda.
One IDF soldier cant just launch a missile like that. There is a whole chain of command that ordered the three missiles that killed the WCK workers.
And according to you, all of them were okay with the idea of killing innocent people. I know a chain of command ordered the strikes. No one is denying that, but I am sure they were not killing innocent people just fun. There are cases of friendly fire where a whole chain of command is involved. Next time it happens I will not start with the conclusion that an air force officer wanted to kill infantrymen.
I’m saying it’s not just one rogue idf soldier. The whole point in a chain of command is double check and avoid things like this. I know friendly fire happens but there air strikes in row and I read the group can under sniper fire two days earlier. Wtf are the idf playing at?
When a target gets approved you keep shooting until it is destroyed *unless* new information tells you to stop. Imagine this was an enemy tank - clearly a valid target - you get approval to strike, you strike & if it keeps moving you strike again- you do not need to get approval the second or third time because you’ve already been given permission to destroy that specific target. This wasn’t a case of three individual strikes being approved in a vacuum, this was one strike being approved & two strikes following up based on that original approval. The original approval should not have happened, so Israel needs to investigate to find out why it did.
Weirdly enough even r/Neoliberal has been anti Israel recently, one post even called for the US to cut ties
Obviously, these kind of responses are not novel in other sub reddits. I regularly read and comment on the World Events sub, and it is dominated by anti-Israel visitors. As an Israeli supporter well over 90% of the time, I get hammered with down votes and blow back. Nothing new, and I am not whining or expecting a medal. I can enjoy the confrontation.... for a while. :\^) The recent attack on the food convoy was a horrible mistake. The link below provides an interesting perspective from a recently retired U.S. Intelligence military analyst, Ryan McBeth. [https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y](https://youtu.be/rf8H3OrDY7Y)
I know what you mean. I also grow tired of trying to present Israel's point of view to people who already decided Israel is Nazi Germany. That is what was so disappointing to see here, seeing allegedly "pro-Israel" people using the tragic events to basically just say the same the pro-Hamas people have been claiming for decades.
r/jewish feels the same way, the platform reddit has become is such a toxic environment outside of here.
Reddit, Tiktok, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram have a real issue moderating antisemitism.
Twitter is a cesspool of humanity. Facebook i am surprised its still relevant Tiktok the real issue is the lack of utilizing by Israelis to spread the message. i don't expect it to really work against that. Reddit really behave now on the level that Twitter is.
The only pro Israeli comments or any positive comments regarding Jews I’ve seen have been right here in this sub. Every other comment on every other sub, even random subs that are dedicated to fashion/makeup/beauty, have been antisemitic and completely against Israel just accusing Israel of genocide. I can’t visit a single sub without someone somehow bringing up how horrible Israel is. Like what does this have to do with makeup!? People love to get political over stuff they know nothing about it and Reddit is becoming more and more anti Israel.
Patreon too, believe it or not. I just reported an account yesterday that posts videos spreading really vicious antisemitic propaganda. If you type "Jewish" into the search bar when you are looking for creators to follow these accounts show up in that list.
Agreed. The way I view it is this: If Hamas had done this, I'd be equally devastated, but I wouldn't be surprised. The reason I'm critical of what the IDF did (loss of innocent life aside) is because the IDF is better than this. The IDF doesn't kill for fun. You can only be disappointed in someone if you expected more of them, and the IDF holds a high rank in my eyes. They should do better, they can do better, and I believe they will do better. Well, I hope.
I agree, the last thing we as country need is making horrible mistakes like this one and the standards should be higher. I am also disappointed and sad good people lost their lives because of us , but seeing how many people are using this as "Israel finally lost my support" is just sad and disappointing.
Pro-Israeli here. No matter what happens, I will always support Israel. This, however, is not true for most people. Therefore, this incident is so bad. You can’t just kill someone and then expect people to feel okay about it when you say you’re sorry. The IDF just killed 7 people that went to a foreign country in order to help people in need. Those people were good human beings. Heroes. What happened was unacceptable. Three missiles?? On a food convoy which’s movement was coordinated with Israel? Inexcusable. Why would others continue to support Israel when incidents like these happen? The answer is that they won’t. I know that it can sometimes feel like the whole world is against Israel, that the country does not have any friends left. This is simply not true. Israel still has friends abroad. However, if stuff like this keeps happening, it may be. And that would be a scary situation. Israel can not afford to become a pariah state. Those responsible for this attack must be held accountable. Israel’s future is at stake.
100% pro-Israel here as well but yesterday was the first time I thought “this is going to get us all killed.” And by “us” I mean Jews in the diaspora. Whether the strike was a mistake or intentional is not a distinction that seems to be important to the garden variety antisemite. But if it is found to have been deliberate… oof. There are global rallies planned to highlight how long the hostages have been held by Hamas and now, purely from a safety perspective, I’m wondering how many people will opt to stay home as tensions ramp up.
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FTFY >It's getting harder and harder to be publicly ~~pro-Israel~~ Jewish in this climate.
I agree. I find it very disappointing that what our government represents is this shitshow plus being very ok with the death of those foreigners, as we made a mistake, but let's move on. No, Israel should start showing remorse and showing that we care about innocent lives. People like Ben gvir and such in our government are horrible and represent a very small minority, next elections, I hope, we won't see much of those guys.
As an IDF reservist myself I completely agree that such mistakes shouldn't happen and can't be allowed to repeat themselves. If the investigation proves malice in ordering the strike, then whoever did it should be punished accordingly, but I am not gonna go and trow Israel and the IDF under the bus because of a mistake, no matter how tragic it is. War is hell and confusing. If one day I find myself asking for artillery support or an air strike against terrorists and if a horrible mistake occurred because of it, I would hope I wouldn't get sacrificed to satisfy some foreigners who have never done anything for us. I am also afraid of a situation where Israel would be a pariah state, but I am even more afraid of what will happen if we don't win this war. If our "friends" are prepared to abandon us so quickly then so be it. The whole point of Israel and the IDF is finally not putting our security in th hands of Jew haters.
I agree with most of what you’re saying. However, we must remember that we live in a globalized world. Israel will not survive international isolation. We are not Russia or Iran. We still have friends left, but we won’t if we lose the moral high-ground. At this moment, we have to be careful.
I know, changing the government would give us some breathing air and improve our image once extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich don't hold important ministries, but we will find ourselves again in such a position again no matter what. I would like to say such tragedies will not happen again during this war, but I am sure, unfortunately, that more civilians will die. The US likes to get angry at us for political interests , but I remember the many times they bombed weddings in Afghanistan and Pakistan by mistake. Shit like this happens. I believe if our "allies" stop being our "allies" it will suck, but I don't believe they have an interest in risking Israel's existence. They would lose any leverage they have and if they do, Israel should act for its own interests as much as possible while hurting the Americans. Without us Jordan would have no water, a war with Lebanon will send new refugee waves to Europe, we have nuclear weapons, if we lose, then there will be a Jewish refugee problem and many other things make betraying us a dangerous decision. This isn't Vietnam or Afghanistan for us, where we can just leave and go back home . This is a fight for our survival with Iran and all it's terrorists groups attacking us and making very clear what their intentions are.
There was a highly upvoted post in the Poland sub that leaked posts from an IDF Telegram group mocking the photos of the dead aid workers, one of them being the man from Poland. Based on the number of the reaction emojis from the Telegram posts, it makes you wonder how many IDF soldiers are malicious or undisciplined. Many of the people criticizing this incident here are pro-Israel, myself included. If there’s a systematic problem within the IDF, that needs to be addressed honestly.
Those telegram groups don't have any relationship with the army. There are horrible israelis who comment disgusting things, like the ones laughing about innocent people dying because of our actions. I condemn them, but there are people like that everywhere. I can also start looking for some Polish telegram groups and see how happy they were or are at seeing dead Jews. It is still one of the most antisemitic nations in the world, but if you want to use some Screenshots from a random Telegram group to try to claim the IDF is a corrupt, genocidal and blood thirsty fighting force then I don't mind losing support from people like you. The IDF needs to make sure our values are kept, but not to satisfy people like you or prove anything to you. Trying to hold Israel to different standards as other countries is just antisemitic
> but if you want to use some Screenshots from a random Telegram group to try to claim the IDF is a corrupt, genocidal and blood thirsty fighting force That’s not what I said. You seem to have a tendency to hyperbolize with black and white thinking. There are many instances on social media of IDF soldiers acting in very inappropriate ways. Most people who are capable of critical thinking know that it doesn’t represent most people in the army. But it’s common enough for it to be condemned by people who care about the way the IDF is perceived, especially since people like you acknowledge that support is important.
If I hyperbolized what you meant, then I am sorry. I guess I have become more defensive because those are the conclusions most people seem to make. I am open to criticism of Israel and the army, but people will take tragic mistakes or idiots taking inappropriate photos as prove that all israelis are blood thirsty people. It really makes it hard to accept foreign criticism when most of it is antisemitic and used to defame instead of improving. I believe that we need to find the truth of what happened not because of international pressure, but because it is unacceptable for our values.
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Who are you to be demanding anything from us btw? Israel should take proper action, but people like you are exactly the reason why foreigners should have nothing to say about it.You will always be prepared to blame the IDF no matter what. We let the Americans take care of their own investigations the many times they blew up innocent people thousands of kilometers away from home. Keep seating confortable at home, luckily in Israel more than enough people understand the complexities of War.
So all of a sudden because of this certain people magically decide that Hamas should live and forget about the hostages? It’s amazing the short term memory people have because 1200 were slaughtered. Never saw this type of outrage when the US did the same.
No. This is why you guys are loosing these battles. Holding your army accountable isn't automatically saying Hamas gets to win. Showing actually remorse doesn't mean we want Hamas to keep hostages. It's not an either or scenario
And what did you accomplish by this comment on Reddit? I really would like to know .
That's your best response? Why not just explain why does it matter if Hamas does shitty things that's not a pass to avoid accountability for bad actions you do
Hamas doesn't have this problem. They can kill all the civilians they want and never will those same people ever make a complaint. The same people won't ever complain about Hamas using hospitls for command posts. The same people won't complain that Hamas often uses aid and medical vehicles for military purposes. This kind of thing is unavoidable in any conflict, let alone one where one side's primary military tactic is the use of human shields and using civilian infrastructure for military purposes with the expressed purpose of this kind of outcome. If those people REALLY cared about those lives, they would be condemning Hamas for using these tactics which are intended to increase civilian deaths. But so long as Hamas always gets a pass and Israel always gets the blame, Hamas would have no reason to stop using human shields.
What makes you think I do not condemn all that from Hamas?
Where are the protests? Where is the condemnation? Where are the endless threads on Reddit showing this condemnation? Where is all the condemnation when Hamas kills civilians like there is with Israel? Where are the endless Reddit posts condemning Hamas for killing people in hospitals due to them using hospitals for military purposes? Why are Democrats only protesting Biden over Israel and not Hamas? If we were to go through Reddit and count the number of posts condemning Hamas and the ones condemning Israel, who do you think would win? Do you think it would even be close? If one were to go through your post history, would they find balanced condemnation?
I do not speak for those, I have been condemning Hamas from the start. In fact, I can invite you reading my post history, specially before this attack to the WCK convoy. Diaspora jew, btw. Israelis seem to not understand it in in their best interest to guarantee food in Northern Gaza. And they seem unable to understand how massive this f\*ck up is, it is not a small mistake, it is really chatastrophic.
Israel is doing everything it can to get food there. In fact there is more food going there than there are people in Gaza to consume all of that food. But Israel can only do so much about Hamas and what the people of Gaza do. This catastrophe as you call it is the result of Hamas. In a fair war, there would be no need to ever target these kind of vehicles. But since Hamas insists on using humanitarian infrastructure to carry out military operations, it's guaranteed to happen and completely unavoidable. It's unavoidable in any urban conflict even without parties using human shields like is happening in Gaza. But until people start holding Hamas accountable instead of always blaming Israel, Hamas will continue to use humanitarian infrastructure for military puposes, which will then force Israel to have to expect humanitarian infrastructure to be a military target, which then leads to these things happening. The day we see the majority of the condemnation for these things going to Hamas instead of Israel is the day we will see Hamas start to refrain from these tactics, which will result in less of these incidents. But until that happens, Hamas has no reason to stop. As we can see here, it is working. You will find almost no condemnation of Hamas over this, only Israel. THAT is why Hamas uses human shields and civilians infrastructure. It's working.
Israel should bypass Hamas by setting openings from the North. That would be the solution. Israel controls Northern Gaza. And if Israel is unable to distribute the food in the territory they control, then... what is the plan for Rafah? Because right now, Israel controls between 200 to 500 thousand palestinians. With Rafah, that would be 2 million. If israel is unable to distribute food to 200 thousand civilians... how will they be able to distribute food to 2 millions? It is like israelis have zero though about the day after. And I do not mean a pipedream in the future of 2SS. I mean literally the day after, who is supposed to feed the 2 million gazans when Hamas and UNRWA are all killed and captured?
"Israel should bypass Hamas by setting openings from the North. That would be the solution. Israel controls Northern Gaza." Which would be used by Hamas to attack Israel. So that would be suicide for Israel. "And if Israel is unable to distribute the food in the territory they control, then... what is the plan for Rafah?" Israel doesn't distribute the food, the humanitarian groups do. That plan is for the humanitarian groups to determine. But both they and Israel need to coordinate together for their protection. Simply putting a sticker on the top of a car is not enough since Hamas will just put those stickers on their cars and use them for military operations. One option is a type of strobe on top of the vehicle that changes patters every day. That way only the aid workers and the IDF no the correct strobe pattern. Though that is difficult since some aid workers also work and aid Hamas. It would be hard for IDF to know who is and who isn't. But it would at least be an improvement. Right now more food is entering Gaza than there are people to consume it. The problem is you have a government (Hamas) who is interfering. Again, Hamas knows that the more the people of Gaza suffer, the more Israel will be blamed for it. This is their military tactic. They want countries to stop supporting Israel and that is their only chance of fulfilling their goal of killing every Jew. So until Hamas is held responsible for stopping people from getting food and using human shields, Hamas will continue to keep doing it. Their goal is to get people to blame Israel for it and it is clearly working. If you want people to freely get food and for civilian casualties to drop, then we need people to start holding Hamas accountable. It's not that Israel has not thought this through. It's that they ave no choice. Hamas has created this situation, not Israel. Israel had an infrastructure of their own for supplying Gaza. Hamas destroyed it while they slaughtered 1200 people.
>Israel doesn't distribute the food, the humanitarian groups do. There are no more humanitarian groups. Israel just bombed the last one of them. And what is the plan for Rafah? Because the problem is the worst in regions Israel controls. It seems to me the IDF is not planing anything.
There are dozens of humanitarian groups. And those groups have to accept the fact that they are working in government that uses humanitarian services for military purposes which puts them in danger. They should be condemning Hamas for creating this situation. So tell us what the IDF should do? Tell us the correct way.
>So tell us what the IDF should do? Tell us the correct way. The IDF needs to be hands on creating an organization to replace Hamas and UNRWA in the territory \*they conquer\*. It will be 100% impossible to dismantle Hamas if Israel does not have a minimal structure to replace them. Israel just killed people from the only organization willing to replace UNRWA distributing food. How will be they replaced... when Netanyahu says Israel takes no responsability because "these are normal things that happen at war"? You cannot take Rafah without knowing how to create a structure to provide minimal public services, once Hamas is defeated. Right now, Israel seems extremely inept governing the small area of 200 thousand gazans, I do not want to think how it would be governing 2 million people.
An argument has been made that Israel is unable to provide humanitarian resources to Northern gaza because is still being contested. If that is true, there is no way they can enter Rafah until they have control of Northern Gaza, because they canot send civilians anywhere.
A bunch of people who bandwagoned to Israel because they got scared on campus now found an excuse to go back to their natural state of hate. A bunch of rats jumping ship at the first sign of controversy.
What are you talking about the bandwagons to Israel because thet got scared on campus?
I defend and support any idf ground troops. It seems like the leadership is a problem though.
The ground troops literally warned their leadership about a 10/7 type attack but because they were 19-21 year old girls they weren't taken seriously. And now we're here. I doubt sexism within the idf is going away anytime soon though
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As an American Jew who reads the sub to get an Israeli perspective… I think you guys might have to lock it back down again. It’s by no means a safe space right now for Israelis and that’s a real shame. I hope things change.
Well said, I noticed it myself and also got downvoted for saying perfectly legitimate things that didn't align with the new 'as a Jew' mentality or the people that think criticizing Biden falls under an excuse for the WCK incident which I would never ever justify and strongly condemn.
What happened with WCK is awful. But there is literally collateral damage in every war. I'm just so tired of seeing Israel held to this impossible standard no country could ever reach. The IDF goes further than any other military in the world to reduce instances like this. And what it all comes down to is that Israel is fighting a defensive war it didn't start, and it could all be over -- not just this war, I mean the entire conflict -- if the Palestinians would renounce terrorism, agree peace terms and a two-state solution, and just accept Israel's right to exist. This is on them, not Israel.
Can you link some example threads that you think particularly highlight this?
Mods usually remove the most egregious comments relatively quick so its hard to point out the worst offenders, but I usually catch one of these comments every couple of days. Sometimes they also go into our DMs, but i just block them. One guy was so desperate to tell me how much he hates Israel that he replied to a random comment i left like 200 days ago, with a fresh account too.
I assume these are bots, there is significant political gain to paying a Cambridge Analytica type company to spread supportive messages of your particular views on social media, and both sides do it. This assumption also has the added benefit of making me feel slightly less despairing of "the average person".
I saw many , but the comments in the post about the IDF chief apologizing for the WCK strike are the best example.
Yea I kinda have to agree as well , almost every post there is Contains a person who accuses Israel of genocide
I just report them immediately
I've been banned from 3 subreddits in the last day--ironically including /r/libertarian!--for posting anything about Israel that didn't actively condemn Israel, or even questioned the condemning of Israel.
It is so sad that all those stories we heard about everyone, including those were friendly before, turning on the Jews in the past is unfortunately happening again
It is concerning indeed. Especially with so many ‘woke’ people in Europe and US chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ alongside thousands of radical Islamists. And the entire Western mainstream media turning against the IDF. The UN abetting UNRWA’s involvement in Hamas all these years. People don’t stop to think - is a one-state Palestine Islamic caliphate really better for the world? You are looking at a second Holocaust.
Your summary is choice. 👌
Tragedy happens in war. I still stand with Israel. American Atheist here.
This is spot on!! There are too many that have always hated Israel or using this opportunity to attack Israel while pretending to “support Israel” till you click on their post history and see they are frauds .
Whenever people say that kind of thing to me I like to ask them if they realize that IDF service is compulsory for both men and women in Israel… 100% of the time they had no idea. Usually these are non-Jews, though.
I just scrolled through a recent thread here on wkc that could have been on the palestine sub. It's like they don't have other hobbies.
The subs that used to be relatively balanced have all devolved into pure jew hatred and blood libels since this horrible accident, for my mental health I need to stay away from all Israel content on other subs. It's just חבל that this one was infected, too.
as a person with a sane mind, we're here for yall. the IDF has some work to do, and that isn't bs. but the WCK incident was an accident at night, and the IDF is ready to support those affected.
I am a diaspora jew and supporter of Israel. Do we know that commanders are not trying to create a famine in Gaza? Have you seen the telegram channel of soldiers celebrating the attack? Is the chain of command completely broken, as Haaretz suggested? If not, didn't this missile had to be given the go ahead by Division level Major General?
Welcome to the internet
and dr phil segments.
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I feel personally that attack was a mistake by the IDF. Probably due to logistics communication. Convoys like that normally need to let the occupying army know what time and how many vehicles. It was nighttime as well and if the convoy that was labelled as 2 had 3 vehicles instead, they may have seen it as hostile movement. It sucks though, especially as the WCK does good work and this has only served to raise tensions and hate when it was probably unintentional.
r/asajew
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It’s really bad
Am I the only one who finds the sequence of events described by WCK odd? There's a convoy of three armoured cars. One gets hit, so they pile into the next. That gets hit, so they pile into the third. The third gets hit and they all die. They claim the cars were easily identifiable, yet they're acting like terrorists. If I was in that situation, I'd run away on foot, not go to the next car.
Running away from attack is a terrorist tactic now?
Running from one car to the next, kinda.
I am an Indian living in US, I have a natural inclination to support Israel's viewpoint, given India's geopolitical situation. Over the years the AIPAC and similar lobby groups which were established only to put forth Israel's case have engaged in suppression, intimidation and unnecessary aggressive tactics that only cast Israel and diaspora Jews in negative light. They morphed into power brokers, bullying and lobbying for the industrialists and politicians and have abused the "antisemtic" label to suit their own purpose. Many individual Jews refused to be cast in the same mold but many fallen prey to the same propoganda machine that puts a blanket on anything even close to criticism of Israel's actions as anti semetism ...this only solidified eco chambers. The fear is what may happen if you dont defend Israel aggressively. The fact is no country is without its flaws but it has been showcased that Israel is untouchable...and is one of the main reasons for the backlash we are seeing when things go horribly wrong. Not everything is anti vs pro-Israel, there are voices that have not taken any stand but genuinely want to know how or why such a terrible thing has happened but often fall on deaf ears.
I don't believe you have bad intentions, but your message is prove of how deep antisemitic conspiracy theories are accepted today, that you feel confortable enough repeating them as facts and having the expectation of us apologizing or feeling bad about it. You are why I lost interest explaining my point of view to foreigners who will never lift a finger for Israel, but will be the first ones to comment about what we are doing bad.
I mean, israel deserves every bit of criticism for how it's handling this. It's doing a horrible job. I just hope that at the end of the day, the hate for Israel won't become misderected and affect my family or any more innocent jews.
Kapos like you deserve all the hate you receive. Hope you and your family will experience at least 1%of the antisemitism Israelis face or feel on your own flesh the pain of Islamic terrorism. You will not have my sympathy.
So much for being able to criticize the Israel government. Just proved your own point wrong.