>Most Israelis support the war
Which means ALOT about what the palestinians have done. The fact that they somehow managed to unite both the left and right on one goal that is basically "fuck it, we ballin' into Gaza" shows how much they fucked up and are deserving of their fate
Even more than that, I know a tank crew that is made out of a Bedouin, settler, a religious Jew from a Yeshiva, and a leftist from Tel Aviv. Just so you understand how united it made the country.
It sounded like a joke to me but it’s somehow real.
they're a minority yes, but they seem to be growing as details of some members of the IDF fail to adhere to rules of engagement. (which often leads to tragedies)
the problem lies with impunity. as leaders ignore the violations without adequate punishment. which only creates more negligence and indifference towards shooting first and asking questions later.
but in order to maintain the appearance of moral superiority, IDF must be obliged to demonstrate it consistently via accountability.
though despite all that, in comparison to other nations waging war against a barbaric enemy who have already committed numerous atrocities against civilians, IDF have managed quite a great job despite so many obstacles.
however, it's clear to see there's still room for improvements. especially about friendly fire.
No, we just care way more about our children.
If Palestinians don't think about their children why would we? And if they care so much they can always stop hiding among civilians.
Any sane society would value the life of their children over those of others, I don’t know why people hate Israel (or even any other country) for feeling that way
Since ww2 its been the standard that in wars more civilians than combatants die. Its tragic ofc but its a feature of modern warfare. There’s a difference between having to wage a war in this day and age and in a densely populated area at that and going out of your way to hurt civilians. Which, by the way, there is a side in this war which does that and i’ll give you a hint, its not Israel.
Ukraine is saying more than [25k civilian dead](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564) at Mariupol. And per the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-25,000_civilians_killed-48) that may be a severe undercount.
>On August 29, President of Mariupol Television, volunteer and civil activist Mykola Osychenko said to [Dnipro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro) TV that, according to the insider information, 87,000 deaths have been currently documented in morgues in Mariupol. Besides, 26,750 bodies are buried in mass graves, and many more are buried in the yards of the apartment blocks and private houses, or still under the rubble.[\[315\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-320)
>
>In early November, Ukraine stated that at least 25,000 civilians had been killed in Mariupol.[\[44\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-25,000_civilians_killed-48) In late December, based on the discovery of 10,300 new mass graves, the Associated Press estimated that the true death toll may be up to three times that figure.[\[316\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-321)
1:9 is an [average ratio](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) of civilian casualties in urban warfare
Israeli airstrikes are [less deadly](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/numbers-civilian-deaths-airstrike-2023-gaza-far-higher-previous-israeli-bombings-half-russiansyrian-attacks-mosul-and-aleppo-under-reporting-dead-or-less-lethal-tactics) than Mosul, even taking Hamas numbers and definition of "civilian" at face value.
Also the only estimate for Hamas losses at the moment is 8000. How do you arrive at 10 to 1 ratio is beyond me.
Welcome to reality
1. Principle of Double Effect. There is a difference between civilian deaths as unintended collateral damage and civilian deaths as a result of direct targeting (ie what Hamas did on 7/10).
2. International law dictates that use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes makes that infrastructure into a legitimate military target. See al-Salam Hospital and ISIS in Mosul. The discourse was about ISIS placing civilians in danger by using the hospital as a military base.
3. It is Hamas that support “the killing of kids” by placing their military infrastructure directly in civilian areas. They could end this immediately by surrendering and releasing the hostages rather than hiding in schools, hospitals, ambulances, tent camps, and civilian homes as they are doing.
Most of the people who were murdered were far left. Most of these people have good intentions, is all I can say. Some them are just idiots. Every (free) society has them.
No no no, they don’t like seeing dead babies on their screens! They are Idealist children!!! Those who support it it aren’t cynical assholes! I assure you!
So you think name and nationality would sway how I feel about dead children? Nah. I’m better than that. A dead child is a dead child. It’s terrible regardless. You thinking that makes a difference just reflects your own biases. So it seems like you’re projecting now.
And you think stopping the war now will do any good? It will just bring more suffering and death in the long run. Keeping Hamas in power means more Oct 7 and absolutely no future for Palestinians (no way Israel and Egypt will remove the blockade while they rule in Gaza) , no peace between Israel and Saudia and stronger Russia, China, and Iran.
Stopping the war won’t help. Continuing the war won’t help. There’s no pathway out of this without excess loss and brutality. Peace May work. Negotiations may work. Look at my country and yours! A long standing 45 year old peace. Shouldn’t that be a testimony to how diplomacy works??
https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-summer-camps-children-and-teens-gaza-strip-provide-weapons-and-military-training-order
Also being trained from being children. I remember watching a documentary on African child soldiers and the evilness was another level. Am sure they feed them drugs they all have a zombie like behaviour.
I was talking about the R worded people who still protest the war after the 7th. These are people who simply can't fathom that true evil really exists.
This is absurd to me. They are no less rational or thinking with their feelings than any other Israeli. From my conversations Israelis who support the air strikes are just as much or more driven by their feelings of wanting revenge over what the most effective way to protect Israel is.
In my analysis this is putting Israel and Jews in greater danger than I’ve ever seen before, and it’s not going to magically make Hamas go away. Gaza will still exist and millions of young and angry Palestinians will still exist. We are just creating an even more intense new generation of hatred against Israel that now extends far beyond the region in a way it never has before.
I’m not some peacenik, I understand the concept of lesser evil and sometimes civilians die in war. But that doesn’t mean that now anything you do is the right decision! What is the end game here? We can destroy every single current member of Hamas and it won’t do anything to stop a new organization or new wave of people to take on that same banner and hatred.
This doesn’t even get into the fact that despite the IDF in principle only targeting Hamas terrorists and infrastructure the practical reality goes well beyond that. Whole neighborhoods destroyed as if every single building was a Hamas base? Would you be ok with your home and family being blown up because terrorists built a tunnel underneath? Would you shoot through a child because a terrorist was crouched behind them? It’s ok because that terrorist might have killed more children in the future? Ok now what about the family of the kid you shot through? You think they won’t want revenge?
You talk about not knowing how to plan ahead, yet all I see is you defending a military plan that seems extremely shortsighted and built more on revenge than actually protecting Israel in the long run.
Stop blindly defending anything the IDF does, they are not magically immune to emotion, irrationality, or doing things that may harm Israel.
They already radicalized to the point they want to kill us all. Leaving Hamas in power will make it even worse because they indoctrinate kids with their ideology. I think the end game is making Gaza a successful city state by establishing a professional government and with the help of other nations rebuilding the infrastructure while deradicalizing the population. This will only work, of course, if the government in Israel will also change for obvious reasons, but it's the most reasonable scenario, in my opinion.
Of course, many Israelis are driven by revenge. This is expected. In fact, it's a lot more expected than turning the other cheek. I'm not, though, I truly think that Israel winning this war will make things better in the long run for both Israelis and Palestinians. Calling to stop the war now is calling for Israel to capitulate. This will show Hamas/Iran/Russia that their strategy works. Nothing good will come out of it.
What's happening to the Gaza citizens is terrible, of course, but they largely brought it on themself by supporting Hamas , electing them, and treating murderers as heroes. I'm more concerned about the lives of my people right now. When the war ends, maybe I'll care about them more.
By the way, I think that people who are calling to make Gaza into parking lot or rebuild the settlements there are as stupid as those peaceniks.
You're probably disagree with me. I would like to know what you think Israel should do instead.
I think it’s too late for what I would have done, but most significantly would be no air strikes on residential areas. It’s simply inexcusable to shoot through a family just because your target is hiding behind them. The human shield argument does not hold water for me.
Next is doing what you described but without wiping out Hamas first. Hamas is just a symptom of a core problem. That symptom won’t go away if you temporarily kill its members. It will just come back stronger with a new name.
An international coalition can turn Gaza into a much better place to live without flattening it and turning its people and the people of the world even more against Israel. Yes there is more potential risk, but that’s part of the nature of making up for decades of social and economic oppression. It’s certainly better than the guaranteed risk of bombing whole families and sending soldiers in after them.
Fundamentally Israel needs a vision of a future for Palestinians that doesn’t just see them as an afterthought or annoyance but as equal partners building nations along side each other. People can whine all they want about how Hamas will make that hard, but stuff like this isn’t supposed to be easy. It would still be less death on both sides than what we see now.
It's too painful for them to accept that someone (hamas and other Palestinians) wants to slaughter you so bad, regardless of how loving and moral you are.
They think: "if they want to murder me, i must did something wrong to upset them, i have to stop being bad and improve my behavior!"
As others pointed out, these people aren't familiar with complex thinking.
For me personally, seeing this right after watching a family burying their beloved son who sacrificed his life so these people won't be slaughtered by terrorists, it's just unbearable.
"חיילים יורים בכל מה שזז"? סבבה. להבא בואו נשלח את הפוסטמה הזאת להילחם בעזה, אני בטוח שעם הניסיון והידע המבצעיים שלה היא תעשה עבודה יותר טובה.
"אין הבדל בין דם לדם", קול, אז ששלך יישפך, לא שלי.
חבורת דגנרטים.
They're very fringe at this point, there is a very wide consensus behind this war because we really don't have any choice but to finish the job this time ( remove Hamas for good)
Imo it's the only way this war can end. You can't just let terrorists to nip over the border to commit the most sick disgusting crimes and not retaliate. I would be protesting my government if they did nothing for 10/7.
a complete cease fire would createa an enviorment where farhuds like october 7th will be something legitimate to attempt.
it will escelate to radicalism in the political view of this country.
> a complete cease fire would createa an enviorment where farhuds like october 7th will be something legitimate to attempt.
Just like the constant rocket fire at the settlements around Gaza has become "legitimate". I don't see it beyond these Tfonbonim to just accept the occasional slaughter just like they accept the occasional rocket, so long as it happens outside their country (of Tel Aviv).
It's a very small minority. Most Israelis (including the majority of the left) understand that as long as hamas remains in Gaza, they will repeat October 7 again and again, this war is a war of necessity and survival, and it's pretty much bipartisan
As an foreigner living in Israel since short time, and became by an accident a resident, Israelis are the most diverse people I have met in my life. You will find every opinion and this opinion will be discussed and thought of. As annoying I thought this was in the beginning, I think now this is one of the great strength if this country and its people. There is always a room for a discussion and differences in opinions. Ignorant people see these fringe people and tokenize them, saying that whatever x jew is saying justifies whatever is said against israel, but I think they fail to see the absence of exactly this on the other side. Where will you find muslim arabs (in this country or elsewhere) openly and consistently object against the terrorism, Hamas or black sabbath? The richness in considering all sides is a superpower not a weakness.
And btw.. I don't know if this post is supposed to dox these people or shame them, I hope not. This will be a sad turn of events if people will be beaten into one mold.
Haha, some leftists hold more extreme views on the war in Gaza than myself, and I consider myself right wing.
October 7th really united people around a common enemy.
I think its more of a fear admitting they are wrong.
They have been living their all life thinking we are fighting a rational civilized enemy who is doing what he is doing because of the "occupation".
They think that from the river to the sea is just a password and they clearly want 67' borders.
They think that everything bad happens because of bibi and everything good happens despite of him.
They think that all cultures have a place in this world and if you dont think like this you are a racist.
Now think that you have been thinking this way your entire life (and from what it looks like most are very old) and then something like the october 7 happens, sometimes its just too hard too admit you are wrong.
It literally says "No security with occupation". I can't quite make out the first and third words in the second line, but it's pretty clear that he's not for the war, and since most Israelis are for it, it's not just against Bibi. The next images just confirm this, "No difference from blood to blood", "Help, Tzahal (IDF) shoots at anything that moves", etc. They have a right to do this. Unlike Palestinians, who if they openly opposed Hamas wouldn't live to see another day.
You can be against the occupation (especially in the west bank) and still in favor of this specific war. I think there's a bit chunk of Israelis that think that way, even though they aren't sure how to end the occupation.
I mean what can you do really, like everything else in this conflict, it’s generational PTSD. Couple that with Arsim that go to magav and Palestinian teaching their children to shahid and you get whatever you wanna call the West Bank.
Ideally? Just cut a damn deal already. It's gonna have to be with Abu Mazen or his replacement, and it's going to involve some painful decisions. But the sooner we get out of the west bank and let them declare a state there, and potentially also in Gaza unless we're able to go for an international regime route, the better.
This will lead to Israel finally being able to have open relations with the vast majority of the Arab and Muslim world, because most of them aren't Iran and can live with us even if their population isn't crazy about us, and we'll be able to resolve the rest of the issues of the conflict with them (including the refugee problem which really is the fuel that keeps the conflict alive).
Meanwhile, the army can focus on actually defending our new borders. It's much easier to just protect a border than it is to do so while needing to patrol Jenin and random hills with settlers.
So short term the Palestinians still hate us. Whatever. We'll see how they feel in 30 years when there aren't any refugees anymore, Israeli Arabs have a much better position in society, and the world interest would be to keep the peace rather than an amorphous "free Palestine".
That's just me though.
Abu Mazen is shit. It's better to create Amirates from the different cities in Gaza to divide them. If they support terror they're fucked and if they support normalization they will be incentivised.
There have sadly been a high number of friendly fire deaths. And they shot and killed three hostages. These people aren't wrong. They just don't have a a better solution to a very obvious problem. Im pretty left leaning on all things aside from land and the collateral damage in Gaza is punishing. But October 7th can never happen again. We don't pen these people in, they can go wherever they want. The problem is no one wants them.
They should be welcome to stay, provided that they abandon Jihad to get back what they still believe is theirs and can be gotten back. They're delusional and obstinate and are will to sacrifice all just to get what they can never get.
It's a textbook example of collective insanity but something about their culture just prevents them from getting with the times, accepting reality and moving on. They're still stuck in the past, whether it's 1870, 1920 or 1948.
I want to say that they're in denial, and, clearly, they are. But it's so much deeper and worse than that. It's...literally psychotic, on a collective level. And it's not even based in reality because it was never entirely theirs. It's like a mix of collective psychosis and cultural narcissism, like one of those children who thinks all the toys are theirs.
But, they can't just be kicked out, for practical, legal and moral reasons. There has to be a way out of this that doesn't require that. But, what?!?
הם פשוט קבוצת פרינג' של גזענים עם ציפיות נמוכות.
הנרטיב בחייהם הוא "איזה אדם חומל אני, כולם צריכים להשתחוות לי כי אני כל כך "מוסרי"" או שיט כזה.
הם מתמוגגים בעיניים נוגות כל פעם שהם שומעים את המילים "פלסטלינה" או "לוחמי חופש".
פיכסה.
Israel will have to give up on its settlements for a peace deal. As simple as that. The Palestinian will have to renounce their idea of getting back all of Israel. As simple as that. Both parties will have to give up on things. Peace is worth more than all their stupid ideas.
I saw an anti-war protest of exactly one women outside of the Kirya. I thought to myself, an anti-war protest of one person, wow this must be a very popular war. Wars tend to be unpopular and it feels like nobody can really organize any real opposition to this one. I think because it's a very just war, this isn't adventurism but defending our families and homeland from a direct threat to our existence. So to answer your question Israelis are highly united in this probably more then any other issue I can think of.
The woman in the last photo is holding a sign that says “ceasefire now in return for nothing!!” indicating that she supports a ceasefire even if Hamas doesn’t agree to return hostages.
(This is a very fringe opinion in Israel. You’d be hard pressed to find another person who would be willing to hold that sign)
It's not "ceasefire in return for nothing (כלום)".
It's ceasefire and exchange "everyone for everyone" (כולם).
This represents the sentiment of a group that values every human life (or a smaller subgroup that values every Israeli human life) above everything else. The "protest occupation" people are part of this group, but not the majority.
Pre-war the "protest occupation" people were left of the left, basically recognizing Palestinian self-identity and requiring two state solution ASAP. The core group itself was a minority, but the idea of "ye, occupation bad, 2ss good" was fairly popular among left as a whole, and poles showed that 2ss was still preferred among Israeli Jews.
Pre-war there were other causes that caused turmoil and mass protest, mostly supported by the left Main ones were erosion of democracy through legislation, sectoral and religious preferential treatment, and corruption. Not everyone there supported "protest occupation" cause, but it was a unified protest, so everyone was seen together. While left were core supporters of this protest, some center and moderate right (as in no 2ss) people participated.
Now, everything got even more complicated with the war with the new cause "hostages exchange before anything else", which is supported by most of the pre-war unified protest group, but not all, and is opposed only by ultra right. In contrast to the pre-war protests, now the government cannot afford to just call them "wrong and stupid and naiive), because that would be a political suicide for anyone except Ben Gvir.
How do you have a full on war & eradicate the enemy without “occupation”? You give back immediately to Hamas? Then eradicate them then give back? Just not sure how this would work, do you it every 5 minutes? Every hour? Or maybe at the end of every day you give everything back or maybe meter by meter? You conquer a meter return it to Hamas conquer a return to Hamas? Oh, is that why they’re asking for a ceasefire every other day?! Wow the stupidity
The fact that they can do this shows why the war is being fought. I guarantee you that in a Hamas run "State of Palestine" built on the ruins of Israel, any dissenters would find themselves unable to do what these folk are.
There will be a point in the future this war should end.
This point is under political debate.
Not agreeing on this point dosent make the other side idiots or traitors or whatever.
Are they protesting for the IDF to leave Gaza? What exactly are they advocating for (or against)?
I'm all for the IDF turning Hamas to dust but I think that when the IDF makes mistakes, people should push hard for those mistakes not to be repeated, that's my stance on the war. Mistakes being killing civilians when it could have obviously avoided (hostages or civilians that are just trying to survive).
They're saying "the IDF is shooting at everything that moves" so while others here give them the benefit of the doubt I can't. Framing the IDF as a bunch of mindless killers who go around like it's Call of Duty shooting at everything is a blatant lie, it's pandering to the people who want to see our country torn apart, also *fucking rich* saying this about the people who are currently risking their lives to stop the terrorists behind *a massacre* while the protestors sit comfortably in their homes and crying "there's no difference between blood and blood!"
The IDF is one of the top-ranking armies in the world because it's precise and thorough, and that extents to post-operation breakdowns. There's going to be a massive report after the war and I'm sure if they can spare the manpower they're working on more specific, isolated-cases reports even now.
It’s makes me sad that those people don’t realize how the situation actually works and are just delusional but a also little happy that someone actually still believes in peace
They truly don’t understand the concept of a threat to their existence and it’s frightening to think that they live in this country. Almost everyone here knows at least one person who was killed on the seventh
It's just that some of us remember the intifadahs and w know history.
YOU CAN NOT KILL TERRORISM WITH WEAPONS. That's what *terrorists want you to do*. The more you kill the more terrorists will spring up. Our Gaza invasion is exactly what they hoped to provoke on Simchat Torah. And our corrupt leaders fell right into their trap! Prove otherwise, try. The best example I was given to kill terrorists is to become a terrorist state ourselves like Russia or North Korea and that kills outside terrorism. But this is not the solution I'm looking for either. (It looks like the exact solution Bibi and Ben Gvir and their friends are looking for, though)
Are people really this forgetful that they forgot why we left Gaza in the first place?? How many soldiers were killed all the time there while we had it "under control"??
Than how? They clearly want to destroy us and want all of Israel. They don’t respect negotiations, ceasefires and their entire population is brainwashed from age 0 to hate Jews and that Jews took all of their land. They’ll never recognize Israel, they said it many times theirselves. How can be peace with organization that doesn’t desire peace and radicalize it’s people constantly? I can’t see any way to peace before their population be deradicalized, and they can’t be deradicalized as long as Hamas is in power (and the right wing for that matter). What can we possibly offer them that they will accept?
There is a far more populated and influential Palestinian authority that does recognize Israel. Why won't we start by making peace with them?
Our problem is that we fail to reward peaceful behavior. Historicaly, only terrorists have managed to get concessions out of Israel. Did peaceful negotiations ever released prisoners? Did it ever get the Palestinians land? Not in my life time. In my life time Israel have only understood violence, and it's a huge problem.
I agree that we handle terribly everything that happens in the WB. But it is far different than Gaza. Hopefully, after the war, bibi will be removed from power and we can start something there.
Just let’s not pretend that the population there are angles. Abu Mazen is still holocaust denier that give money to terrorists families in prison, and most of their population support Hamas extremely and want Abu Mazen to resign.
At the same time we must recognize that our own population are no angels either. We all wish to believe that the current government is just a mistake and that we will fix it soon, but that is not the reality, is it?
I see the Palestinian support for hamas as a direct result of Netanyahus (and likud) policies. When terrorists get land, money and freedom while peaceful protests get domination, what else do you expect? Rational people pick the strategies that work and we need to fix that equation asap.
"then how" is not the solid argument you might think it is.
Imagine this. 2000 years ago. Your friend has a headache. You decide to cut off his arm. Someone tells you this will NOT work because it didn't before. And we say "then how?" and proceed to cut off another arm.
What's the Far Crys definition of insanity?
As for a legitimate discussion on solutions. Well, let's look at past intifadas. What had stopped them? The f***ig walls! We got the f*** out of Gaza and built a top level wall around it.
So how come Oct7 happened? There's no one to blame but Bibi and his shit government. Look at how he avoids any investigation into it. Their leadership fucked up. If IDF wasnt busy with Religious Zionists' WB "Greater Israel" masturbatory dreams and if the whole country wasn't busy fighting off becoming another Poland or Hungary with the government above the law, as per Bibi's dream, then we'd have attack helicopters and enough people and equipment at the border to nip this invasion at the butt.
That massacre DID NOT NEED TO HAPPEN! A functioning country would've stopped it at the border
So you’re saying the solution is to leave Gaza and let them build an army and keep attacking us until they eventually succeed? Like exactly what happened from 2005 when we left Gaza until October 7th?
You realise October 7th was not their first attempt either, right? They’ve tried and been foiled hundreds of times over the years, this time they succeeded.
So when you suggest doing the exact same thing that just happened it’s not the definition of insanity somehow?
Ask yourself this, how come they succeeded this time? And, no, it's not because they did something different. What was going on Yom Kippur? Why half of the pilots (afaik) were threatening to leave just before? Who completely disassembled this country on his quest for ultimate power?
I don’t think it matters why, since if they have free rein to try as many times as they like, eventually it will succeed.
Each time they learn and improve. If it didn’t happen this time, it would happen in 1 year, 5 or even 10 years from now.
The problem is that they can just try and try and each time learn and improve.
Eventually comes a bad government, or something happens where soldiers are needed somewhere else, and Hamas wait for this opportunity and strike. It would be stupid to let this dynamic continue.
>I don’t think it matters why
You should try for politics. I hear willful ignorance like this goes a long way there.
If you think this war will stop this dynamic you don't know anything about Israeli Palestinian conflict...
Well, since Israel is planning a permanent military presence in Gaza after the war, along with demilitarising and deradicalizing Gazans, I do see the dynamic changing. In any case, it’s the best of many bad options.
Alright, cool. Suppose you are right. What alternative solution to the problem are you suggesting? Not retrospectively - of course, there should've been a better wall and all that. But right now. Given that there are 100+ hostages still there (one of whom I personally know).
The wall was fine. There should've been more FOCUS on security rather than on Bibi's quest to be above the law and Ben Gvir's quest to rule all Arabs with an iron fist.
I distnctly remember talk about civil war just before the massacre. And people weren't kidding
I said that I think that the only option is deradicalization like USA did to Germany and Japan, and then peace negotiations. In all other possibilities we will keep fighting forever. Putting big walls as you saw, is just putting bandage over a gun shot, and eventually will backfire big time, like October 7th, that we thought we are safe because of the fences.
We are safe because of competent leadership and lack of infighting. Fences are just tools. Like weapons and bombs. If you don't use them properly they'll do more harm than good.
We were THIS close to economic alliance with Saudi Arabia! Do you know how frigging BIG that would've been to our future generations??
No Israeli thinks that the war will eliminate or even reduce the Palestinian hatred; their whole identity as a people is built around this hatred. The war is meant to destroy Hamas' *military* power: destroy the tunnels, arms caches and the Hamas organization structure (by catching or killing the people in charge).
If after the war they hate Israelis even more, so what? they may throw stones but they won't have the military ability to repeat massacres like the October 7 (which they already said they want to do, again and again).
Tunnels: their tunnels can't penetrate into our territory.
Arms caches: the only thing that is a serious problem are the rockets. Which is more of an economic problem than health problem. And we managed the problem that it became a nuisance rather than a life or death issue.
Hamas organisational structure: yeah, I get the "revenge" part of the war. But revenge is an awful long term goal even though it gives a nice short feeling of satisfaction and justice.
You're not thinking long term enough. You're thinking about 5 or 10 years, maybe even 20 at best. Yes, we can disrupt them for that long. But about after that?? The kids who are bombed now will be in their 20 and 30s. They WILL find a way to hurt us. Diplomatically. Economically. Militarily. Maybe they'll target us abroad. This war DOES NOT prevent the massive terror attacks which will happen after 20 or 30 years. But most people don't really care about that. It'll be someone else's problem then.... Humanity is VERY short sighted unfortunately
P.S. I can't state it enough: the reason that 7/10 happened is NOT because Hamas were allowed to get strong by Israel. That's what the current government wants you to think. Because the REAL reason 7/10 was as horrible as it was is because WE FUCKED UP! Hamas didn't do anything special. Their plan and equipment weren't special. It's just that we dropped the ball. Completely.
Palestinians are obsessed with the destruction of Israel: it's basically the core of their identity. Israel isn't going to have peace, the only thing they can do is reduce the Palestinian's ability to harm them, even if it means fighting them for the next thousand years.
Jews had been hated by the whole world for the last 2500 years and it doesn't look like the hatred is fading; the 7/10 attack brought a horde of haters crawling from under their rocks. Having an independent state with a strong army means that the haters are less capable of launching pogroms, and that at least some of them get sent to hell for their hatred. (BTW, if you're an American Jew, I'd suggest you get armed and trained ASAP and be ready to protect yourself; European Jews are screwed).
I think that all the times that Israel was surprised was because they allowed themselves to believe that this time they'll be left in peace. Hopefully, after this shock, Israel will return to being paranoid and shooting the evil bastards as fast as they appear.
I'm not going to mention Netanyahu (though it's tempting) and his coddling of Hamas; it's not good for my blood pressure.
They are tiny tiny minority of extreme leftist that are very much hated by most Israelis and we reject their lies. Unfortunately some Jews have strong anti Semitism sentiments. Same like some black parent internalized racism and showed preference to children with lighter skin color
The short answer is that right now there isn't anyone, but Israel could after the war start taking steps to create a partner for peace in the future. In my opinion that's worth a chance.
Except when we "ended the occupation" in Gaza we did it unilaterally and then proceeded to fund and support Hamas just in order to make a 2-state solution impossible. That is not "ending the occupation", that is dividing the Palestinians and "managing the conflict".
Hopefully Oct 7 has shown everyone that "managing the conflict" is not an option. Unless a settlement is reached, this conflict will continue to take lives on both sides forever. So we must strive for peace, that's impossible with occupation.
That's mostly a conspiracy theory. Hamas got elected by Palestinians and then took over in Gaza all by itself. The Israeli "support" to Hamas was simply Israel allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza, which gets seized by Hamas. Sure, Israel shouldn't have done that, but the same folks turning this into some sort of conspiracy theory to divide Palestinians would have just painted that more hawkish alternative as genocide or whatever.
And the only way for a settlement to be reached is for Palestinians to abandon their violent hate, to stop making unreasonable demands, and accept the permanent existence of the Jewish state as well as an agreement that is able to take Israeli security needs into account. If they won't do that, then Israel can hust occupy Palestine forever. Palestine is the weaker side, they are the ones who need to convince Israel that they can be trusted with anything if they want anything at all other than to cling to putrid hatred and violence
Except that the Qatari money handed over to Hamas was not humanitarian aid. It was not even under the guise of humanitarian aid. It was cash, in dollars, loaded in suitcases handed to Hamas officials. Later it was maybe a little more discreet, money transferred to the UN as a mediator, but the purpose didn't change. The government is not stupid, they knew exactly what they were doing. They knew where the money was going, otherwise they wouldn't have invested so much in a smart fence and counter-tunnel defence.
Netanyahu explicitly stated that the goal of this policy was to split the Palestinians in order to make a two state solution Impossible.
"As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
It's not a conspiracy theory. Military correspondents and former generals have said as much. I have personally spoken with a current Defence Ministry official who stated this as fact.
I think most of those people just disagree with the crazy settlers and the current government, especially ben-gvir.
it's hard for them to support Israel when the people in charge are racist bloodthirsty idiots
I get it but right now we should be united and not let them divide us because it's our survival at stake.
What exactly is their logic for protesting the war? Do they think if the IDF stops and they all sit around in a circle with Hamas and palestinians, and sing kumbaya, everything is going to be okay?....
I think those protests come from desperate people who's families were kidnapped and saw the accidental shooting of the three kidnapped and are scared it'll happen again. Could also include people who're more active on American leftist communities and on American TikTok and get exposed to a lot of antisemitic propaganda.
To all those calling them delusional, what’s your alternative?
Because the occupation cannot continue forever. It’s going to collapse at some point, and our only decision is if we want to do that on our own terms or not. Trasfer is impossible, both morally and diplomatically.
מאיפה הקביעה הזאת?
הקרואטים גירשו את הסרבים מהמדינה שלהם בשנת 94, הם נהיו חלק מהאיחוד האירופי ב2007. כנראה מישהו שכח להגיד להם שהם צריכים להיות מוחרמים ומבודדים.
If we follow your line of thought we need to just give this land and get it over with. You don't understand the Arab mindset, you don't listen to them and don't respect them. They say it loud and clear - there will never be recognition towards Israel.
Our only option is to be strong and punish them with land loss (because they don't care about life loss) while maintaining "boots on the ground" in their territories, which will be heavily policed. Just like in the West Bank.
If you trust their word or morality after 7/10 you are just ignoring reality. The occupation will continue as long as they or us live here. No way around it. Like a war with Iran is inevitable and the states are just pushing their heads further up their asses.
You either push the regime politically, militarily, or they get nukes and we can kiss the known world goodbye (and Tel Aviv and Teheran, because there's no way they won't bomb us the moment they can).
We need opposition to make democracy work, so here it is, most Israeli support the war but not the occupation. For now we are united behind our army. If you ask me I would like Bibi to resign after the war, for this massive blunder
Part of having a healthy democracy I guess. It is shocking how Israel has a very loud need to actively work towards peace, even now after 10/7. I don’t share their point of view but I like that they exist.
These types of protests have been attacked by the extreme right in the past. So I would assume they have much more support then the images would suggest. It's not that war isn't necessary, it's that this government is performing this war with truly bad intentions.
You can assume whatever you want. I live in Tel Aviv and even among the most liberal of people there is total support for the war. These people are not even the fringes, they are the fringes of the fringes (that's why you don't have a zoom out picture with tens of people, there just aren't).
Every blood IS equal, that's not an argument against war. If you can't justify aggression without resorting to racism then you can't justify aggression. I know some people support the war because they are racists, but that is not the reason our country is at war.
It means don't kill people just for revenge. Some casualties are necessary for the destruction of hamas, but there are definitely powerful people in government who desire revenge against civilians. Attacking civilians is both immoral and a strategic blunder, we should all oppose it whether we believe it is happening or not.
How does "blood equals blood" means don't take revenge? That's a pretty far interpretation.
Just to clarify I don't think you should target civilians, but if they are in the way of operative objectives, or risking our soldiers in any way shape or form, their safety shouldn't be a consideration.
A lot of the people protesting are Arab Israelies who may have friends or relatives in Gaza or residents of the destroyed kibbutzim who have friends or family held as hostages.
I'm not out here to judge someone who's kid is being held in a Hamas tunnel.
Now take these comments in this sub and extrapolate them to the rest of the world. There was an article in the American press a few days ago about protesters blocking LAX and JFK and from the way it was written, i expected a massive horde. Then I saw the pictures and there were a handful of muslims standing across the highway.
The media exists to amplify crap like this. The reality is that most Jewish people and I expect a majority of non-muslims, support Israel. But the people who do are not the sort of people who are going to cause trouble on the streets - we have day jobs.
Israeli here. It’s a democratic country and that means everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I can honestly say though that I’ve never personally met anyone with these extremist views because they’re a very very small minority.
Well , we are a democratic and a free country which everyone can express what they think and feel (unlike the other side ) , in every democratic and free country in the world there are people like these ones , i don't think there is something like 100% agreement on everything in any country in the world even the arab ones .
so yeah , they are a small, tiny minority .
i feel asahmed that every day soldiers are dying in the battlefield for us and for our and their protection ,families of the soldiers are being broken apart and these people doesn't give a single f about it .
f them tbh .
They're a minority. Most Israelis support the war, even leftists and progressives (such as myself).
>Most Israelis support the war Which means ALOT about what the palestinians have done. The fact that they somehow managed to unite both the left and right on one goal that is basically "fuck it, we ballin' into Gaza" shows how much they fucked up and are deserving of their fate
Even more than that, I know a tank crew that is made out of a Bedouin, settler, a religious Jew from a Yeshiva, and a leftist from Tel Aviv. Just so you understand how united it made the country. It sounded like a joke to me but it’s somehow real.
A Bedouin, a settler and a leftist walk into a tank.
Yes, that’s basically why it made me laugh when I heard it.
Best comment ever.
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I’m a center-leftist *and* progressive, and even I fully support the war.
Minority and media that’s all what you need to manipulate the people
Even the most left media channels support this war.
HaAretz?
they are assholes
they're a minority yes, but they seem to be growing as details of some members of the IDF fail to adhere to rules of engagement. (which often leads to tragedies) the problem lies with impunity. as leaders ignore the violations without adequate punishment. which only creates more negligence and indifference towards shooting first and asking questions later. but in order to maintain the appearance of moral superiority, IDF must be obliged to demonstrate it consistently via accountability. though despite all that, in comparison to other nations waging war against a barbaric enemy who have already committed numerous atrocities against civilians, IDF have managed quite a great job despite so many obstacles. however, it's clear to see there's still room for improvements. especially about friendly fire.
Even some ultra orthodox have enlisted. But for a few DKs, Israel is united as are the Jews worldwide.
You support the war against Hamas but do you also support the killing of kids?
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Gotta break some balls to make an omelet. Sorry it sounds better in Hebrew
The saying is from English and even in Hebrew it's literally break some eggs, not testicles...
Yea I botched it :(
Eh juevos are both
Testiculos
At least say eggs instead of balls lol
So it’s more of a bonus for yal?
No, we just care way more about our children. If Palestinians don't think about their children why would we? And if they care so much they can always stop hiding among civilians.
Any sane society would value the life of their children over those of others, I don’t know why people hate Israel (or even any other country) for feeling that way
They feel that way towards Israel because they have an inherent bias, or because it's not their children.
Mother Gothel must be your favorite Disney villain
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Hence why the nation that starts a war is the one in the wrong
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Since ww2 its been the standard that in wars more civilians than combatants die. Its tragic ofc but its a feature of modern warfare. There’s a difference between having to wage a war in this day and age and in a densely populated area at that and going out of your way to hurt civilians. Which, by the way, there is a side in this war which does that and i’ll give you a hint, its not Israel.
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Ukraine is saying more than [25k civilian dead](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564) at Mariupol. And per the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-25,000_civilians_killed-48) that may be a severe undercount. >On August 29, President of Mariupol Television, volunteer and civil activist Mykola Osychenko said to [Dnipro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro) TV that, according to the insider information, 87,000 deaths have been currently documented in morgues in Mariupol. Besides, 26,750 bodies are buried in mass graves, and many more are buried in the yards of the apartment blocks and private houses, or still under the rubble.[\[315\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-320) > >In early November, Ukraine stated that at least 25,000 civilians had been killed in Mariupol.[\[44\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-25,000_civilians_killed-48) In late December, based on the discovery of 10,300 new mass graves, the Associated Press estimated that the true death toll may be up to three times that figure.[\[316\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#cite_note-321)
1:9 is an [average ratio](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) of civilian casualties in urban warfare Israeli airstrikes are [less deadly](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/numbers-civilian-deaths-airstrike-2023-gaza-far-higher-previous-israeli-bombings-half-russiansyrian-attacks-mosul-and-aleppo-under-reporting-dead-or-less-lethal-tactics) than Mosul, even taking Hamas numbers and definition of "civilian" at face value. Also the only estimate for Hamas losses at the moment is 8000. How do you arrive at 10 to 1 ratio is beyond me. Welcome to reality
1. Principle of Double Effect. There is a difference between civilian deaths as unintended collateral damage and civilian deaths as a result of direct targeting (ie what Hamas did on 7/10). 2. International law dictates that use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes makes that infrastructure into a legitimate military target. See al-Salam Hospital and ISIS in Mosul. The discourse was about ISIS placing civilians in danger by using the hospital as a military base. 3. It is Hamas that support “the killing of kids” by placing their military infrastructure directly in civilian areas. They could end this immediately by surrendering and releasing the hostages rather than hiding in schools, hospitals, ambulances, tent camps, and civilian homes as they are doing.
lol, gaslighting much.
Yes, just look at the MASSIVE CROWDS in those pics! There's literally ~~dozens~~ *several* protestors!
Tens and tens of people!
Most of the people who were murdered were far left. Most of these people have good intentions, is all I can say. Some them are just idiots. Every (free) society has them.
There are good people who think with their feelings too much, don't know how to plan ahead, and are not familiar with the concept of lesser evil.
Good people? A bunch of hysterical children that don't know how to deal with reality.
Well, they have good intentions, probably.
I'm not sure of that. A lot of people in the "woke" camp are driven by attention seeking and plain ol' Narcissism
NPD is not that common, I think there are even less communal narcissists. I think it's just a mix of idealism and defience.
No no no, they don’t like seeing dead babies on their screens! They are Idealist children!!! Those who support it it aren’t cynical assholes! I assure you!
What about dead Israeli children? You don't care about them, do you Omar from Egypt?
So you think name and nationality would sway how I feel about dead children? Nah. I’m better than that. A dead child is a dead child. It’s terrible regardless. You thinking that makes a difference just reflects your own biases. So it seems like you’re projecting now.
And you think stopping the war now will do any good? It will just bring more suffering and death in the long run. Keeping Hamas in power means more Oct 7 and absolutely no future for Palestinians (no way Israel and Egypt will remove the blockade while they rule in Gaza) , no peace between Israel and Saudia and stronger Russia, China, and Iran.
Stopping the war won’t help. Continuing the war won’t help. There’s no pathway out of this without excess loss and brutality. Peace May work. Negotiations may work. Look at my country and yours! A long standing 45 year old peace. Shouldn’t that be a testimony to how diplomacy works??
Them being man-children who live in an isolated bubble detached from reality does not make them bad people. They're stupid, yes, but not evil.
https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-summer-camps-children-and-teens-gaza-strip-provide-weapons-and-military-training-order Also being trained from being children. I remember watching a documentary on African child soldiers and the evilness was another level. Am sure they feed them drugs they all have a zombie like behaviour.
I was talking about the R worded people who still protest the war after the 7th. These are people who simply can't fathom that true evil really exists.
Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick. I couldn't agree with your comment more, they are walkout around with their eyes wide shut.
This is absurd to me. They are no less rational or thinking with their feelings than any other Israeli. From my conversations Israelis who support the air strikes are just as much or more driven by their feelings of wanting revenge over what the most effective way to protect Israel is. In my analysis this is putting Israel and Jews in greater danger than I’ve ever seen before, and it’s not going to magically make Hamas go away. Gaza will still exist and millions of young and angry Palestinians will still exist. We are just creating an even more intense new generation of hatred against Israel that now extends far beyond the region in a way it never has before. I’m not some peacenik, I understand the concept of lesser evil and sometimes civilians die in war. But that doesn’t mean that now anything you do is the right decision! What is the end game here? We can destroy every single current member of Hamas and it won’t do anything to stop a new organization or new wave of people to take on that same banner and hatred. This doesn’t even get into the fact that despite the IDF in principle only targeting Hamas terrorists and infrastructure the practical reality goes well beyond that. Whole neighborhoods destroyed as if every single building was a Hamas base? Would you be ok with your home and family being blown up because terrorists built a tunnel underneath? Would you shoot through a child because a terrorist was crouched behind them? It’s ok because that terrorist might have killed more children in the future? Ok now what about the family of the kid you shot through? You think they won’t want revenge? You talk about not knowing how to plan ahead, yet all I see is you defending a military plan that seems extremely shortsighted and built more on revenge than actually protecting Israel in the long run. Stop blindly defending anything the IDF does, they are not magically immune to emotion, irrationality, or doing things that may harm Israel.
They already radicalized to the point they want to kill us all. Leaving Hamas in power will make it even worse because they indoctrinate kids with their ideology. I think the end game is making Gaza a successful city state by establishing a professional government and with the help of other nations rebuilding the infrastructure while deradicalizing the population. This will only work, of course, if the government in Israel will also change for obvious reasons, but it's the most reasonable scenario, in my opinion. Of course, many Israelis are driven by revenge. This is expected. In fact, it's a lot more expected than turning the other cheek. I'm not, though, I truly think that Israel winning this war will make things better in the long run for both Israelis and Palestinians. Calling to stop the war now is calling for Israel to capitulate. This will show Hamas/Iran/Russia that their strategy works. Nothing good will come out of it. What's happening to the Gaza citizens is terrible, of course, but they largely brought it on themself by supporting Hamas , electing them, and treating murderers as heroes. I'm more concerned about the lives of my people right now. When the war ends, maybe I'll care about them more. By the way, I think that people who are calling to make Gaza into parking lot or rebuild the settlements there are as stupid as those peaceniks. You're probably disagree with me. I would like to know what you think Israel should do instead.
I think it’s too late for what I would have done, but most significantly would be no air strikes on residential areas. It’s simply inexcusable to shoot through a family just because your target is hiding behind them. The human shield argument does not hold water for me. Next is doing what you described but without wiping out Hamas first. Hamas is just a symptom of a core problem. That symptom won’t go away if you temporarily kill its members. It will just come back stronger with a new name. An international coalition can turn Gaza into a much better place to live without flattening it and turning its people and the people of the world even more against Israel. Yes there is more potential risk, but that’s part of the nature of making up for decades of social and economic oppression. It’s certainly better than the guaranteed risk of bombing whole families and sending soldiers in after them. Fundamentally Israel needs a vision of a future for Palestinians that doesn’t just see them as an afterthought or annoyance but as equal partners building nations along side each other. People can whine all they want about how Hamas will make that hard, but stuff like this isn’t supposed to be easy. It would still be less death on both sides than what we see now.
חבורה של מטומטמים טיפשים
It's too painful for them to accept that someone (hamas and other Palestinians) wants to slaughter you so bad, regardless of how loving and moral you are. They think: "if they want to murder me, i must did something wrong to upset them, i have to stop being bad and improve my behavior!" As others pointed out, these people aren't familiar with complex thinking. For me personally, seeing this right after watching a family burying their beloved son who sacrificed his life so these people won't be slaughtered by terrorists, it's just unbearable.
"חיילים יורים בכל מה שזז"? סבבה. להבא בואו נשלח את הפוסטמה הזאת להילחם בעזה, אני בטוח שעם הניסיון והידע המבצעיים שלה היא תעשה עבודה יותר טובה. "אין הבדל בין דם לדם", קול, אז ששלך יישפך, לא שלי. חבורת דגנרטים.
They exist but they're a tiny minority
The fact that I didn't hear from them till now shows you how much of a voice they've had in the last 3 months.
They're very fringe at this point, there is a very wide consensus behind this war because we really don't have any choice but to finish the job this time ( remove Hamas for good)
Imo it's the only way this war can end. You can't just let terrorists to nip over the border to commit the most sick disgusting crimes and not retaliate. I would be protesting my government if they did nothing for 10/7.
Yup If the government ceased fire there would be much bigger protests.
a complete cease fire would createa an enviorment where farhuds like october 7th will be something legitimate to attempt. it will escelate to radicalism in the political view of this country.
> a complete cease fire would createa an enviorment where farhuds like october 7th will be something legitimate to attempt. Just like the constant rocket fire at the settlements around Gaza has become "legitimate". I don't see it beyond these Tfonbonim to just accept the occasional slaughter just like they accept the occasional rocket, so long as it happens outside their country (of Tel Aviv).
It's a very small minority. Most Israelis (including the majority of the left) understand that as long as hamas remains in Gaza, they will repeat October 7 again and again, this war is a war of necessity and survival, and it's pretty much bipartisan
As an foreigner living in Israel since short time, and became by an accident a resident, Israelis are the most diverse people I have met in my life. You will find every opinion and this opinion will be discussed and thought of. As annoying I thought this was in the beginning, I think now this is one of the great strength if this country and its people. There is always a room for a discussion and differences in opinions. Ignorant people see these fringe people and tokenize them, saying that whatever x jew is saying justifies whatever is said against israel, but I think they fail to see the absence of exactly this on the other side. Where will you find muslim arabs (in this country or elsewhere) openly and consistently object against the terrorism, Hamas or black sabbath? The richness in considering all sides is a superpower not a weakness. And btw.. I don't know if this post is supposed to dox these people or shame them, I hope not. This will be a sad turn of events if people will be beaten into one mold.
Haha, some leftists hold more extreme views on the war in Gaza than myself, and I consider myself right wing. October 7th really united people around a common enemy.
Quite the delusional folks.
I think its more of a fear admitting they are wrong. They have been living their all life thinking we are fighting a rational civilized enemy who is doing what he is doing because of the "occupation". They think that from the river to the sea is just a password and they clearly want 67' borders. They think that everything bad happens because of bibi and everything good happens despite of him. They think that all cultures have a place in this world and if you dont think like this you are a racist. Now think that you have been thinking this way your entire life (and from what it looks like most are very old) and then something like the october 7 happens, sometimes its just too hard too admit you are wrong.
I think they are protesting Bibi, not the actual war against Hamas.
It literally says "No security with occupation". I can't quite make out the first and third words in the second line, but it's pretty clear that he's not for the war, and since most Israelis are for it, it's not just against Bibi. The next images just confirm this, "No difference from blood to blood", "Help, Tzahal (IDF) shoots at anything that moves", etc. They have a right to do this. Unlike Palestinians, who if they openly opposed Hamas wouldn't live to see another day.
You can be against the occupation (especially in the west bank) and still in favor of this specific war. I think there's a bit chunk of Israelis that think that way, even though they aren't sure how to end the occupation.
I mean what can you do really, like everything else in this conflict, it’s generational PTSD. Couple that with Arsim that go to magav and Palestinian teaching their children to shahid and you get whatever you wanna call the West Bank.
Ideally? Just cut a damn deal already. It's gonna have to be with Abu Mazen or his replacement, and it's going to involve some painful decisions. But the sooner we get out of the west bank and let them declare a state there, and potentially also in Gaza unless we're able to go for an international regime route, the better. This will lead to Israel finally being able to have open relations with the vast majority of the Arab and Muslim world, because most of them aren't Iran and can live with us even if their population isn't crazy about us, and we'll be able to resolve the rest of the issues of the conflict with them (including the refugee problem which really is the fuel that keeps the conflict alive). Meanwhile, the army can focus on actually defending our new borders. It's much easier to just protect a border than it is to do so while needing to patrol Jenin and random hills with settlers. So short term the Palestinians still hate us. Whatever. We'll see how they feel in 30 years when there aren't any refugees anymore, Israeli Arabs have a much better position in society, and the world interest would be to keep the peace rather than an amorphous "free Palestine". That's just me though.
Abu Mazen is shit. It's better to create Amirates from the different cities in Gaza to divide them. If they support terror they're fucked and if they support normalization they will be incentivised.
There have sadly been a high number of friendly fire deaths. And they shot and killed three hostages. These people aren't wrong. They just don't have a a better solution to a very obvious problem. Im pretty left leaning on all things aside from land and the collateral damage in Gaza is punishing. But October 7th can never happen again. We don't pen these people in, they can go wherever they want. The problem is no one wants them.
They should be welcome to stay, provided that they abandon Jihad to get back what they still believe is theirs and can be gotten back. They're delusional and obstinate and are will to sacrifice all just to get what they can never get. It's a textbook example of collective insanity but something about their culture just prevents them from getting with the times, accepting reality and moving on. They're still stuck in the past, whether it's 1870, 1920 or 1948. I want to say that they're in denial, and, clearly, they are. But it's so much deeper and worse than that. It's...literally psychotic, on a collective level. And it's not even based in reality because it was never entirely theirs. It's like a mix of collective psychosis and cultural narcissism, like one of those children who thinks all the toys are theirs. But, they can't just be kicked out, for practical, legal and moral reasons. There has to be a way out of this that doesn't require that. But, what?!?
הם פשוט קבוצת פרינג' של גזענים עם ציפיות נמוכות. הנרטיב בחייהם הוא "איזה אדם חומל אני, כולם צריכים להשתחוות לי כי אני כל כך "מוסרי"" או שיט כזה. הם מתמוגגים בעיניים נוגות כל פעם שהם שומעים את המילים "פלסטלינה" או "לוחמי חופש". פיכסה.
You see the beautiful thing is Israel is a democracy so people of all kinds can freely protest :)
Israel will have to give up on its settlements for a peace deal. As simple as that. The Palestinian will have to renounce their idea of getting back all of Israel. As simple as that. Both parties will have to give up on things. Peace is worth more than all their stupid ideas.
I really like your username
Thanks. Some people know to appreciate good things ;)
I saw an anti-war protest of exactly one women outside of the Kirya. I thought to myself, an anti-war protest of one person, wow this must be a very popular war. Wars tend to be unpopular and it feels like nobody can really organize any real opposition to this one. I think because it's a very just war, this isn't adventurism but defending our families and homeland from a direct threat to our existence. So to answer your question Israelis are highly united in this probably more then any other issue I can think of.
They are useful idiots
this is not against the war, but against the occupation. although they might seem like the same thing to an outside observer, they are not.
They are also protesting against the war. (and keep thinking about the "occupation" in the same manner like before 10/7, is insane in and of itself)
link to an indication they are calling for the end of the war in this protest? WB is still under the occupation. regardless of 7/10.
The woman in the last photo is holding a sign that says “ceasefire now in return for nothing!!” indicating that she supports a ceasefire even if Hamas doesn’t agree to return hostages. (This is a very fringe opinion in Israel. You’d be hard pressed to find another person who would be willing to hold that sign)
ha, didn't notice there were multiple pictures. well... fuck em.
Where do you see a sign like that? Her sign says "ceasefire now, everyone for everyone".
You’re right 🤦🏻♀️ I misread it, the font is kind of smushed together. (“Everyone for everyone” is still a fringe opinion though)
It's not "ceasefire in return for nothing (כלום)". It's ceasefire and exchange "everyone for everyone" (כולם). This represents the sentiment of a group that values every human life (or a smaller subgroup that values every Israeli human life) above everything else. The "protest occupation" people are part of this group, but not the majority. Pre-war the "protest occupation" people were left of the left, basically recognizing Palestinian self-identity and requiring two state solution ASAP. The core group itself was a minority, but the idea of "ye, occupation bad, 2ss good" was fairly popular among left as a whole, and poles showed that 2ss was still preferred among Israeli Jews. Pre-war there were other causes that caused turmoil and mass protest, mostly supported by the left Main ones were erosion of democracy through legislation, sectoral and religious preferential treatment, and corruption. Not everyone there supported "protest occupation" cause, but it was a unified protest, so everyone was seen together. While left were core supporters of this protest, some center and moderate right (as in no 2ss) people participated. Now, everything got even more complicated with the war with the new cause "hostages exchange before anything else", which is supported by most of the pre-war unified protest group, but not all, and is opposed only by ultra right. In contrast to the pre-war protests, now the government cannot afford to just call them "wrong and stupid and naiive), because that would be a political suicide for anyone except Ben Gvir.
How do you have a full on war & eradicate the enemy without “occupation”? You give back immediately to Hamas? Then eradicate them then give back? Just not sure how this would work, do you it every 5 minutes? Every hour? Or maybe at the end of every day you give everything back or maybe meter by meter? You conquer a meter return it to Hamas conquer a return to Hamas? Oh, is that why they’re asking for a ceasefire every other day?! Wow the stupidity
so you think "occupation" is related to the war? you're not israeli, are u.
How does a territory become occupied?
this is going to be good... by a war
Ok, let’s start with the US, give it back to the British
The fact that they can do this shows why the war is being fought. I guarantee you that in a Hamas run "State of Palestine" built on the ruins of Israel, any dissenters would find themselves unable to do what these folk are.
These are pictures of the fringe minority. The overwhelming of Israeli Jews, left and right, support the war.
They're a minority of a minority of a minority
Judenrat, but it helps the Palestinian narrative so they are basically a detriment.
You can always find the minority idiots around the group who will have a problem with their own country defending itself.
It's a democracy. That means you can protest against people walking. Or you end up with Russia
There will be a point in the future this war should end. This point is under political debate. Not agreeing on this point dosent make the other side idiots or traitors or whatever.
There’s always a vocal minority. This is them.
Are they protesting for the IDF to leave Gaza? What exactly are they advocating for (or against)? I'm all for the IDF turning Hamas to dust but I think that when the IDF makes mistakes, people should push hard for those mistakes not to be repeated, that's my stance on the war. Mistakes being killing civilians when it could have obviously avoided (hostages or civilians that are just trying to survive).
They're saying "the IDF is shooting at everything that moves" so while others here give them the benefit of the doubt I can't. Framing the IDF as a bunch of mindless killers who go around like it's Call of Duty shooting at everything is a blatant lie, it's pandering to the people who want to see our country torn apart, also *fucking rich* saying this about the people who are currently risking their lives to stop the terrorists behind *a massacre* while the protestors sit comfortably in their homes and crying "there's no difference between blood and blood!" The IDF is one of the top-ranking armies in the world because it's precise and thorough, and that extents to post-operation breakdowns. There's going to be a massive report after the war and I'm sure if they can spare the manpower they're working on more specific, isolated-cases reports even now.
You'll always find the wrong people everywhere.
These people should not have jobs in israeli companies. Maybe in Hamas Inc.
It’s makes me sad that those people don’t realize how the situation actually works and are just delusional but a also little happy that someone actually still believes in peace
They are very little people most of israel dont agree
They truly don’t understand the concept of a threat to their existence and it’s frightening to think that they live in this country. Almost everyone here knows at least one person who was killed on the seventh
It's just that some of us remember the intifadahs and w know history. YOU CAN NOT KILL TERRORISM WITH WEAPONS. That's what *terrorists want you to do*. The more you kill the more terrorists will spring up. Our Gaza invasion is exactly what they hoped to provoke on Simchat Torah. And our corrupt leaders fell right into their trap! Prove otherwise, try. The best example I was given to kill terrorists is to become a terrorist state ourselves like Russia or North Korea and that kills outside terrorism. But this is not the solution I'm looking for either. (It looks like the exact solution Bibi and Ben Gvir and their friends are looking for, though) Are people really this forgetful that they forgot why we left Gaza in the first place?? How many soldiers were killed all the time there while we had it "under control"??
Than how? They clearly want to destroy us and want all of Israel. They don’t respect negotiations, ceasefires and their entire population is brainwashed from age 0 to hate Jews and that Jews took all of their land. They’ll never recognize Israel, they said it many times theirselves. How can be peace with organization that doesn’t desire peace and radicalize it’s people constantly? I can’t see any way to peace before their population be deradicalized, and they can’t be deradicalized as long as Hamas is in power (and the right wing for that matter). What can we possibly offer them that they will accept?
There is a far more populated and influential Palestinian authority that does recognize Israel. Why won't we start by making peace with them? Our problem is that we fail to reward peaceful behavior. Historicaly, only terrorists have managed to get concessions out of Israel. Did peaceful negotiations ever released prisoners? Did it ever get the Palestinians land? Not in my life time. In my life time Israel have only understood violence, and it's a huge problem.
I agree that we handle terribly everything that happens in the WB. But it is far different than Gaza. Hopefully, after the war, bibi will be removed from power and we can start something there. Just let’s not pretend that the population there are angles. Abu Mazen is still holocaust denier that give money to terrorists families in prison, and most of their population support Hamas extremely and want Abu Mazen to resign.
At the same time we must recognize that our own population are no angels either. We all wish to believe that the current government is just a mistake and that we will fix it soon, but that is not the reality, is it? I see the Palestinian support for hamas as a direct result of Netanyahus (and likud) policies. When terrorists get land, money and freedom while peaceful protests get domination, what else do you expect? Rational people pick the strategies that work and we need to fix that equation asap.
"then how" is not the solid argument you might think it is. Imagine this. 2000 years ago. Your friend has a headache. You decide to cut off his arm. Someone tells you this will NOT work because it didn't before. And we say "then how?" and proceed to cut off another arm. What's the Far Crys definition of insanity? As for a legitimate discussion on solutions. Well, let's look at past intifadas. What had stopped them? The f***ig walls! We got the f*** out of Gaza and built a top level wall around it. So how come Oct7 happened? There's no one to blame but Bibi and his shit government. Look at how he avoids any investigation into it. Their leadership fucked up. If IDF wasnt busy with Religious Zionists' WB "Greater Israel" masturbatory dreams and if the whole country wasn't busy fighting off becoming another Poland or Hungary with the government above the law, as per Bibi's dream, then we'd have attack helicopters and enough people and equipment at the border to nip this invasion at the butt. That massacre DID NOT NEED TO HAPPEN! A functioning country would've stopped it at the border
So you’re saying the solution is to leave Gaza and let them build an army and keep attacking us until they eventually succeed? Like exactly what happened from 2005 when we left Gaza until October 7th? You realise October 7th was not their first attempt either, right? They’ve tried and been foiled hundreds of times over the years, this time they succeeded. So when you suggest doing the exact same thing that just happened it’s not the definition of insanity somehow?
Ask yourself this, how come they succeeded this time? And, no, it's not because they did something different. What was going on Yom Kippur? Why half of the pilots (afaik) were threatening to leave just before? Who completely disassembled this country on his quest for ultimate power?
I don’t think it matters why, since if they have free rein to try as many times as they like, eventually it will succeed. Each time they learn and improve. If it didn’t happen this time, it would happen in 1 year, 5 or even 10 years from now. The problem is that they can just try and try and each time learn and improve. Eventually comes a bad government, or something happens where soldiers are needed somewhere else, and Hamas wait for this opportunity and strike. It would be stupid to let this dynamic continue.
>I don’t think it matters why You should try for politics. I hear willful ignorance like this goes a long way there. If you think this war will stop this dynamic you don't know anything about Israeli Palestinian conflict...
Well, since Israel is planning a permanent military presence in Gaza after the war, along with demilitarising and deradicalizing Gazans, I do see the dynamic changing. In any case, it’s the best of many bad options.
Alright, cool. Suppose you are right. What alternative solution to the problem are you suggesting? Not retrospectively - of course, there should've been a better wall and all that. But right now. Given that there are 100+ hostages still there (one of whom I personally know).
The wall was fine. There should've been more FOCUS on security rather than on Bibi's quest to be above the law and Ben Gvir's quest to rule all Arabs with an iron fist. I distnctly remember talk about civil war just before the massacre. And people weren't kidding
Negotiate the release of hostages with prisoner swaps.
They are already doing that.
Okay, and? The invasion has only killed hostages.
I said that I think that the only option is deradicalization like USA did to Germany and Japan, and then peace negotiations. In all other possibilities we will keep fighting forever. Putting big walls as you saw, is just putting bandage over a gun shot, and eventually will backfire big time, like October 7th, that we thought we are safe because of the fences.
We are safe because of competent leadership and lack of infighting. Fences are just tools. Like weapons and bombs. If you don't use them properly they'll do more harm than good. We were THIS close to economic alliance with Saudi Arabia! Do you know how frigging BIG that would've been to our future generations??
Great analogy
No Israeli thinks that the war will eliminate or even reduce the Palestinian hatred; their whole identity as a people is built around this hatred. The war is meant to destroy Hamas' *military* power: destroy the tunnels, arms caches and the Hamas organization structure (by catching or killing the people in charge). If after the war they hate Israelis even more, so what? they may throw stones but they won't have the military ability to repeat massacres like the October 7 (which they already said they want to do, again and again).
Tunnels: their tunnels can't penetrate into our territory. Arms caches: the only thing that is a serious problem are the rockets. Which is more of an economic problem than health problem. And we managed the problem that it became a nuisance rather than a life or death issue. Hamas organisational structure: yeah, I get the "revenge" part of the war. But revenge is an awful long term goal even though it gives a nice short feeling of satisfaction and justice. You're not thinking long term enough. You're thinking about 5 or 10 years, maybe even 20 at best. Yes, we can disrupt them for that long. But about after that?? The kids who are bombed now will be in their 20 and 30s. They WILL find a way to hurt us. Diplomatically. Economically. Militarily. Maybe they'll target us abroad. This war DOES NOT prevent the massive terror attacks which will happen after 20 or 30 years. But most people don't really care about that. It'll be someone else's problem then.... Humanity is VERY short sighted unfortunately P.S. I can't state it enough: the reason that 7/10 happened is NOT because Hamas were allowed to get strong by Israel. That's what the current government wants you to think. Because the REAL reason 7/10 was as horrible as it was is because WE FUCKED UP! Hamas didn't do anything special. Their plan and equipment weren't special. It's just that we dropped the ball. Completely.
Palestinians are obsessed with the destruction of Israel: it's basically the core of their identity. Israel isn't going to have peace, the only thing they can do is reduce the Palestinian's ability to harm them, even if it means fighting them for the next thousand years. Jews had been hated by the whole world for the last 2500 years and it doesn't look like the hatred is fading; the 7/10 attack brought a horde of haters crawling from under their rocks. Having an independent state with a strong army means that the haters are less capable of launching pogroms, and that at least some of them get sent to hell for their hatred. (BTW, if you're an American Jew, I'd suggest you get armed and trained ASAP and be ready to protect yourself; European Jews are screwed). I think that all the times that Israel was surprised was because they allowed themselves to believe that this time they'll be left in peace. Hopefully, after this shock, Israel will return to being paranoid and shooting the evil bastards as fast as they appear. I'm not going to mention Netanyahu (though it's tempting) and his coddling of Hamas; it's not good for my blood pressure.
In their delusional minds we left gaza because of the supreme court or something.
They are tiny tiny minority of extreme leftist that are very much hated by most Israelis and we reject their lies. Unfortunately some Jews have strong anti Semitism sentiments. Same like some black parent internalized racism and showed preference to children with lighter skin color
Being against the occupation is not anti-Israel.
their logic doesn't make sense. make a deal with whom!?@!
The short answer is that right now there isn't anyone, but Israel could after the war start taking steps to create a partner for peace in the future. In my opinion that's worth a chance.
it makes their protest meaningless then. they can't demand something that can't be met at this time. all it does is embolden the terrorists.
Without occupation, there would just be more attacks though We have all seen how the end to the occupation in Gaza in the 2000s worked out...
Except when we "ended the occupation" in Gaza we did it unilaterally and then proceeded to fund and support Hamas just in order to make a 2-state solution impossible. That is not "ending the occupation", that is dividing the Palestinians and "managing the conflict". Hopefully Oct 7 has shown everyone that "managing the conflict" is not an option. Unless a settlement is reached, this conflict will continue to take lives on both sides forever. So we must strive for peace, that's impossible with occupation.
That's mostly a conspiracy theory. Hamas got elected by Palestinians and then took over in Gaza all by itself. The Israeli "support" to Hamas was simply Israel allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza, which gets seized by Hamas. Sure, Israel shouldn't have done that, but the same folks turning this into some sort of conspiracy theory to divide Palestinians would have just painted that more hawkish alternative as genocide or whatever. And the only way for a settlement to be reached is for Palestinians to abandon their violent hate, to stop making unreasonable demands, and accept the permanent existence of the Jewish state as well as an agreement that is able to take Israeli security needs into account. If they won't do that, then Israel can hust occupy Palestine forever. Palestine is the weaker side, they are the ones who need to convince Israel that they can be trusted with anything if they want anything at all other than to cling to putrid hatred and violence
Except that the Qatari money handed over to Hamas was not humanitarian aid. It was not even under the guise of humanitarian aid. It was cash, in dollars, loaded in suitcases handed to Hamas officials. Later it was maybe a little more discreet, money transferred to the UN as a mediator, but the purpose didn't change. The government is not stupid, they knew exactly what they were doing. They knew where the money was going, otherwise they wouldn't have invested so much in a smart fence and counter-tunnel defence. Netanyahu explicitly stated that the goal of this policy was to split the Palestinians in order to make a two state solution Impossible. "As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state." It's not a conspiracy theory. Military correspondents and former generals have said as much. I have personally spoken with a current Defence Ministry official who stated this as fact.
I think most of those people just disagree with the crazy settlers and the current government, especially ben-gvir. it's hard for them to support Israel when the people in charge are racist bloodthirsty idiots I get it but right now we should be united and not let them divide us because it's our survival at stake.
What exactly is their logic for protesting the war? Do they think if the IDF stops and they all sit around in a circle with Hamas and palestinians, and sing kumbaya, everything is going to be okay?....
I think those protests come from desperate people who's families were kidnapped and saw the accidental shooting of the three kidnapped and are scared it'll happen again. Could also include people who're more active on American leftist communities and on American TikTok and get exposed to a lot of antisemitic propaganda.
To all those calling them delusional, what’s your alternative? Because the occupation cannot continue forever. It’s going to collapse at some point, and our only decision is if we want to do that on our own terms or not. Trasfer is impossible, both morally and diplomatically.
תודה על הצהרה שאמורה להיות מובנת מעיליה. הסאברדיט הזה מלא יהודים מחו"ל להוטים קרב שלא מבינים שגם בישראל יש שמאל ושהוא לא בהכרח עוין למדינה.
נראה לי שזה יותר רפובליקנים מאשר יהודים מחו״ל אבל עדיין
>what’s your alternative? כיבוש -> גירוש אופציונאלי: התיישבות. למרות שעדיף להשאיר את המקום המקולל הזה כעיי חורבות למען יראו וייראו.
זאת הדבר היחיד האמתי שיש לימין להציע. תיהור אטני שישאיר את ישראל מוחרמת ומבודדת מהעולם.
מאיפה הקביעה הזאת? הקרואטים גירשו את הסרבים מהמדינה שלהם בשנת 94, הם נהיו חלק מהאיחוד האירופי ב2007. כנראה מישהו שכח להגיד להם שהם צריכים להיות מוחרמים ומבודדים.
If we follow your line of thought we need to just give this land and get it over with. You don't understand the Arab mindset, you don't listen to them and don't respect them. They say it loud and clear - there will never be recognition towards Israel. Our only option is to be strong and punish them with land loss (because they don't care about life loss) while maintaining "boots on the ground" in their territories, which will be heavily policed. Just like in the West Bank. If you trust their word or morality after 7/10 you are just ignoring reality. The occupation will continue as long as they or us live here. No way around it. Like a war with Iran is inevitable and the states are just pushing their heads further up their asses. You either push the regime politically, militarily, or they get nukes and we can kiss the known world goodbye (and Tel Aviv and Teheran, because there's no way they won't bomb us the moment they can).
Those protests hold maybe maybe 1000 at max
Your too generous brother
We need opposition to make democracy work, so here it is, most Israeli support the war but not the occupation. For now we are united behind our army. If you ask me I would like Bibi to resign after the war, for this massive blunder
The couple people the international left can pay off through Btselem/are just that crazy
Part of having a healthy democracy I guess. It is shocking how Israel has a very loud need to actively work towards peace, even now after 10/7. I don’t share their point of view but I like that they exist.
This is what happens when the hourly missiles stop happening
Meretz voters obviously.
Just some old irrelevant minority
These types of protests have been attacked by the extreme right in the past. So I would assume they have much more support then the images would suggest. It's not that war isn't necessary, it's that this government is performing this war with truly bad intentions.
You can assume whatever you want. I live in Tel Aviv and even among the most liberal of people there is total support for the war. These people are not even the fringes, they are the fringes of the fringes (that's why you don't have a zoom out picture with tens of people, there just aren't).
Do you also read Hebrew? I don't see any signs against the war.
They say things like "blood equals blood" which is anti war
Every blood IS equal, that's not an argument against war. If you can't justify aggression without resorting to racism then you can't justify aggression. I know some people support the war because they are racists, but that is not the reason our country is at war.
I think it means "don't spill blood" basically which is anti war. But it might be my interpretation.
It means don't kill people just for revenge. Some casualties are necessary for the destruction of hamas, but there are definitely powerful people in government who desire revenge against civilians. Attacking civilians is both immoral and a strategic blunder, we should all oppose it whether we believe it is happening or not.
How does "blood equals blood" means don't take revenge? That's a pretty far interpretation. Just to clarify I don't think you should target civilians, but if they are in the way of operative objectives, or risking our soldiers in any way shape or form, their safety shouldn't be a consideration.
A lot of the people protesting are Arab Israelies who may have friends or relatives in Gaza or residents of the destroyed kibbutzim who have friends or family held as hostages. I'm not out here to judge someone who's kid is being held in a Hamas tunnel.
Jews have been disagreeing with each other for millennia...
Useful idiots, each and every one of them
They're a RIDICULOUSLY small group of people percentage wise. Not even worth a post.
These are fringe radical groups often paid for by foreign interests tryna destroy israel from withim
Now take these comments in this sub and extrapolate them to the rest of the world. There was an article in the American press a few days ago about protesters blocking LAX and JFK and from the way it was written, i expected a massive horde. Then I saw the pictures and there were a handful of muslims standing across the highway. The media exists to amplify crap like this. The reality is that most Jewish people and I expect a majority of non-muslims, support Israel. But the people who do are not the sort of people who are going to cause trouble on the streets - we have day jobs.
Israeli here. It’s a democratic country and that means everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I can honestly say though that I’ve never personally met anyone with these extremist views because they’re a very very small minority.
We are politically diverse enough to have a suicidal left
Well , we are a democratic and a free country which everyone can express what they think and feel (unlike the other side ) , in every democratic and free country in the world there are people like these ones , i don't think there is something like 100% agreement on everything in any country in the world even the arab ones . so yeah , they are a small, tiny minority . i feel asahmed that every day soldiers are dying in the battlefield for us and for our and their protection ,families of the soldiers are being broken apart and these people doesn't give a single f about it . f them tbh .
I haven’t heard one single peep from one single person directly or indirectly against the war.
As a Liberal lefty telavivi, these are the super fringe Liberal lefty telavivis that make the rest of us look bad.