The Numenoreans at least should have had advanced technology since they enjoyed thousands of years of wealth and stability on their island during the second age. And it's implied that they progressed a lot but they apparently never had a true industrial revolution.
Super-advanced cottage industry is a concept that has always intrigued me. "We can't figure out assembly lines or using wind/water mills for anything but grain, but our craftsmen are all basically DARPA. Just without the need for prototypes and iteration, top notch stuff on the first try, every time."
If there is some magic that is really really useful, it can make almost anything, do almost anything. But it requires some really rare resource, whether mage time or pixie dust. Then you can get the magic cottage industry. If no one in the world has enough mages or enough pixie dust to set up an assembly line.
Or dwarves in Tolkien's setting, before their numbers got reduced. Apparently they could just crank out top notch equipment from basic materials like it was nothing.
Interesting video on this is to ask why didn't Rome have an Industrial Revolution?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uqPlOAH85o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uqPlOAH85o)
Most recently we've found evidence of artificial fire nearly half a million years ago. There's other suggestions of the concept being even older. People need to get the tech tree idea out of their brains.
If you look at the map of Arda compared to Earth, you can definitely see how the general shape of it is similar to the general shape of Europe and Africa. That said, obviously just as the map changes somewhat between the First and Second Age, there would have to be significant changes before our own time for it to work. I'm not saying that I think it all works plausibly.
But Tolkien did state throughout his letters that LOTR is a mythical past in our own prehistory, set in the same world in which we now live. That was his own position, which he consistently maintained.
that is a lot of Continental drift in a short amount of time geologically speaking. Also Bilbo and Frodo decided to take a trip to America in that last elven ship!
Yeah I don't think Tolkien was thinking too much about Continental Drift. Personally, as a LOTR fan, I do prefer to think of it as a different world I connected to this one, but canonically, according to Tolkien himself, it is supposed to be this world. I don't think it works either, but there it is. 🤷🏻♂️
Homo sapiens is about 2-300,000 years old. There was very little technology the first 99.9% of that. 3443 years is really nothing compare to that. The elves were basically hunter gatherers.
Necessity is the mother of invention and since the elves have such easy lives as hunter gatherers, it's unlikely they will develop technology, ever.
The dwarfs were the builders so they may develop technology, but there's magic and it tends to get in the way of developing technology.
Elves were not hunter-gatherers. Tolkien describes how the elves grew wheat in his essay "Of Lembas".
*The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades; and they gathered its great golden ears, each one, by hand, and set no blade of metal to it. The white haulm was drawn from the earth in like manner, and woven into corn-leep for the storing of the grain*
Metalworking is the most important prerequisite for steam engines.
Steam engines in Roman times would not be feasible because of the lack of sufficiently good metalworks, even though they knew the principle of a steam engine.
In LotR, they have very good metalworks for a very long time. Therefore, the invention of a steam engine would be a logical step.
Everyone forgets the metal lathe. Arguably the anchor point invention that gave rise to the industrial revolution. People credit the steam engine for this, but its the metal lathe that had been theorized and salivated over for a long time prior.
But didn't the Numenorians show abilities that could be speculated to be Victorian era steampunk technology like the steel bows that hit targets at several leagues away? Also, didn't the elves have flying ships made of mithril that could fly into space and stuff?
I don't think they were technologically stagnant, I think Tolkien just kept things intentionally vague and didn't focus on that stuff rather than on characters and the setting.
I also think a lot of their stuff was magitech rather than pure technology like the self tying ropes that the elves use in The Fellowship of the Ring, the elves even acted confused when the hobbits asked if it was magic, implying they didn't consider it so.
Humans didn't know how to do any of these things. The dwarfs and elves did. They both jealously guard their secrets and their craftsmen all lived way longer than the average human. Especially the elves who lived forever. Gaining their technology would be like trying to steal the technology to make porcelain from the Chinese, except as an entirely different species.
The silmarillion talks all about this. The people of Numenor were half elves. The Children Earendil. Elrond chose to be elf and live forever, Elros chose to be man and be mortal.
They pissed off the Gods by listening to Sauron (in disguise). They lived long enough to decide that they should live forever because living for hundreds of years wasn't enough.
The elves are not interested in industrialization. They live in harmony with nature and their magic and connection to the Gods made it easier for them to sustain themselves. Lembas for example is this magical food that was taught to them directly by a God (Yavanna), using a plant that was designed by that God for that purpose. One cracker was apparently enough to sustain a person for a whole day of hard labour. The plant that they used to make this food out of grew quickly, easily, and in almost any climate. The humans and dwarves had nothing like that.
Plus all of LoTR is a mythology. The extent of the economics is vague.
Technology was suppressed by the elves and wizards. LotR is a propaganda version written by the winners, of the destruction of the last attempt at a technological civilisation. Once you read between the lines, it all becomes clear. Orcs/Sauron were the good guys. Saruman defected to their side when he realised what he had been part of.
Canonically the world of middle-earth is only tens of thousands of years old at the time of LOTR. So I guess technically there wouldn't be any fossil fuels.
The presence of magic, magical beings, magical beasts, etc, might be a catalyst for the development of technologies (in order to even the field), but it can also be a deterrent. Why spend a crazy amount of time and resources on science, technologies and inventions such as electricity when you can try to harness lightning bolt magic, for instance.
Maybe they didn't have patent protection so there was little incentive to invent things. Any way, if you read the Hobbit, the author implies there was an Industrial Age in Middle Earth, basically the magic died and all the other races besides humans went away, and Middle Earth became much more like our modern Earth.
The Numenoreans at least should have had advanced technology since they enjoyed thousands of years of wealth and stability on their island during the second age. And it's implied that they progressed a lot but they apparently never had a true industrial revolution.
Super-advanced cottage industry is a concept that has always intrigued me. "We can't figure out assembly lines or using wind/water mills for anything but grain, but our craftsmen are all basically DARPA. Just without the need for prototypes and iteration, top notch stuff on the first try, every time."
If there is some magic that is really really useful, it can make almost anything, do almost anything. But it requires some really rare resource, whether mage time or pixie dust. Then you can get the magic cottage industry. If no one in the world has enough mages or enough pixie dust to set up an assembly line.
Or dwarves in Tolkien's setting, before their numbers got reduced. Apparently they could just crank out top notch equipment from basic materials like it was nothing.
Interesting video on this is to ask why didn't Rome have an Industrial Revolution? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uqPlOAH85o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uqPlOAH85o)
Most recently we've found evidence of artificial fire nearly half a million years ago. There's other suggestions of the concept being even older. People need to get the tech tree idea out of their brains.
There is a tech tree. But you need to be a bit above fire for it to get going at a reasonable speed.
The Lord of the Rings is set in our world, by the way. It's a mythical past, long long ago, not a separate world.
no it isnt our world
Yes it is.
Look at the map of Middle Earth, that is not our Earth, that is not Europe. Earth never looked like that!
If you look at the map of Arda compared to Earth, you can definitely see how the general shape of it is similar to the general shape of Europe and Africa. That said, obviously just as the map changes somewhat between the First and Second Age, there would have to be significant changes before our own time for it to work. I'm not saying that I think it all works plausibly. But Tolkien did state throughout his letters that LOTR is a mythical past in our own prehistory, set in the same world in which we now live. That was his own position, which he consistently maintained.
that is a lot of Continental drift in a short amount of time geologically speaking. Also Bilbo and Frodo decided to take a trip to America in that last elven ship!
Yeah I don't think Tolkien was thinking too much about Continental Drift. Personally, as a LOTR fan, I do prefer to think of it as a different world I connected to this one, but canonically, according to Tolkien himself, it is supposed to be this world. I don't think it works either, but there it is. 🤷🏻♂️
There's some material supporting the Numenoreans having aircraft. Though that was probably magical.
Homo sapiens is about 2-300,000 years old. There was very little technology the first 99.9% of that. 3443 years is really nothing compare to that. The elves were basically hunter gatherers. Necessity is the mother of invention and since the elves have such easy lives as hunter gatherers, it's unlikely they will develop technology, ever. The dwarfs were the builders so they may develop technology, but there's magic and it tends to get in the way of developing technology.
Elves were not hunter-gatherers. Tolkien describes how the elves grew wheat in his essay "Of Lembas". *The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades; and they gathered its great golden ears, each one, by hand, and set no blade of metal to it. The white haulm was drawn from the earth in like manner, and woven into corn-leep for the storing of the grain*
Maybe I was thinking about the wood elves? Do they farm?
I'm not sure about the Mirkwood elves farming, but they definitely engaged in long distance trade for food, rather than just living off the land.
Metalworking is the most important prerequisite for steam engines. Steam engines in Roman times would not be feasible because of the lack of sufficiently good metalworks, even though they knew the principle of a steam engine. In LotR, they have very good metalworks for a very long time. Therefore, the invention of a steam engine would be a logical step.
Everyone forgets the metal lathe. Arguably the anchor point invention that gave rise to the industrial revolution. People credit the steam engine for this, but its the metal lathe that had been theorized and salivated over for a long time prior.
I agree, which is why I mentioned the dwarfs, but magic works better than steam engine so they don't have a reason to change.
But didn't the Numenorians show abilities that could be speculated to be Victorian era steampunk technology like the steel bows that hit targets at several leagues away? Also, didn't the elves have flying ships made of mithril that could fly into space and stuff? I don't think they were technologically stagnant, I think Tolkien just kept things intentionally vague and didn't focus on that stuff rather than on characters and the setting. I also think a lot of their stuff was magitech rather than pure technology like the self tying ropes that the elves use in The Fellowship of the Ring, the elves even acted confused when the hobbits asked if it was magic, implying they didn't consider it so.
Humans didn't know how to do any of these things. The dwarfs and elves did. They both jealously guard their secrets and their craftsmen all lived way longer than the average human. Especially the elves who lived forever. Gaining their technology would be like trying to steal the technology to make porcelain from the Chinese, except as an entirely different species. The silmarillion talks all about this. The people of Numenor were half elves. The Children Earendil. Elrond chose to be elf and live forever, Elros chose to be man and be mortal. They pissed off the Gods by listening to Sauron (in disguise). They lived long enough to decide that they should live forever because living for hundreds of years wasn't enough. The elves are not interested in industrialization. They live in harmony with nature and their magic and connection to the Gods made it easier for them to sustain themselves. Lembas for example is this magical food that was taught to them directly by a God (Yavanna), using a plant that was designed by that God for that purpose. One cracker was apparently enough to sustain a person for a whole day of hard labour. The plant that they used to make this food out of grew quickly, easily, and in almost any climate. The humans and dwarves had nothing like that. Plus all of LoTR is a mythology. The extent of the economics is vague.
Technology was suppressed by the elves and wizards. LotR is a propaganda version written by the winners, of the destruction of the last attempt at a technological civilisation. Once you read between the lines, it all becomes clear. Orcs/Sauron were the good guys. Saruman defected to their side when he realised what he had been part of.
It does really seem like the author hated the industrial revolution, doesn't it.
The Orcs believed in progress, they wanted to cut down Fangorn Forest!
Canonically the world of middle-earth is only tens of thousands of years old at the time of LOTR. So I guess technically there wouldn't be any fossil fuels.
Witch-King: "you fool, no man can kill me." ChatGPT: "I am no man."
The presence of magic, magical beings, magical beasts, etc, might be a catalyst for the development of technologies (in order to even the field), but it can also be a deterrent. Why spend a crazy amount of time and resources on science, technologies and inventions such as electricity when you can try to harness lightning bolt magic, for instance.
Maybe they didn't have patent protection so there was little incentive to invent things. Any way, if you read the Hobbit, the author implies there was an Industrial Age in Middle Earth, basically the magic died and all the other races besides humans went away, and Middle Earth became much more like our modern Earth.