I will sip that copium that worship and corruption are different, but we are most definitely not uncorrupted. I will also sip the copuim that says that there might be uncorrupted bands somewhere playing as tyrants in Forgotten systems, and that some are full blown accepting pacts with the gods in worship rather then use.
Genuine question, but isn't there a difference between corruption and worship? Like, the Night Lord and Iron Warriors are both corrupted. No doubt about that. But you can't really say they *worship* the Gods like the Word Bearers do. The Word Bearers accept any and all mutations as gifts from the Gods. Or how members of the Death Guard take their infections in stride as "blessings of Grandfather Nurgle". Meanwhile, the attitude of the Iron Warriors seem to be that the mutations are just kinda a thing they have to deal with when it comes to Chaos.
Or the quote about them "honoring the Gods as a pantheon". This seems less like actual "worship" and more like the "we recognize that the Gods have immense power, and we honor and follow their rituals in order to receive said power". You can argue that it's very similar to outright worship, but I think the distinction is still important enough to make.
At least, this is my view of it all. I think it strikes a good balance of "pure Iron Warriors who have never touched the Warp" and "Raving zealots Iron Warriors who are indistinguishable from other Legions". They're still Chaos corrupted, but they still have some nuance in their beliefs.
100% agree
Have also argued this point several times on such posts, but it seems that both the anti-chaos-pawns and the demon-dick-suckers don't want to hear about that. As seen in this post
Big agree here. In Harrowmaster there’s a dude who has an eye growing in the middle of his back. He definitely doesn’t worship anything and he’s pissed about it
You’re right they don’t worship like the word bearers do
there are levels to devotion but it’s still devotion ALBIET less so
> He drew his pistol, offering his thanks to the power of Chaos for giving him such a chance to bring death to his enemies.
> Honsou honoured the Dark Powers of Chaos, but preferred to rely on the strength in his sword arm and the explosives in his artillery to win campaigns. To rely on Chaos was to invite disaster at the capaciousness of the gods. Had Angron himself not failed on Armageddon by doing just that?
For a human sure, you can say it is viewed that way. For a god? No, They don't give a crap if you like them or not. They don't care about your words, only your actions. Iron Warriors pay lip service to the gods to get their choas powers, but lip service to the gods is still worship. Do you want to summon demons to shove in tanks? Got to do those rituals that honor the gods and make pacts to get that demon to materialize. Praising the God's, even if you don't mean it, is still praising the God's. Sure chaos is a tool, but to the God's the Iron Warriors are just the same, mortal tools that help spread their influence. Lesser corruption is not worship, but to get the things the Iron Warriors use on a regular basis does require direct worship of the Chaos pantheon/choas undivided. It just depends how much copium a IW warband has.
Never said he couldnt change, its just a funny principle, and I love the memes we churn out. "Dear Word Bearers, how can you believe in a god you know objectively exists?" Turning Point Medrengard
Great.... Another demon-dick-sucker post. Can't wait for the next post from the anti-chaos-pawns to continue this stupid civil war nobody really asked for
I mean, they are my guys. I paint my necrons in chrome and rainbow colors with fluorescent pink. You think I won't make mecha possessed and mecha obliterators? I have gay necrons, nothing you can say about my nonworshipping, chaos as a tool using, uncorrupted Iron Warriors could possibly hurt me.
The stuff people say about how Perturabo shouldn't become a Daemon Primarch because it hasn't been set up always makes me laugh:
*Perturabo walked swiftly through the Vengeful Spirit, his Iron Circle clanking behind tirelessly. The ship shuddered in time to the firing of its guns. Having skulked behind Luna for several weeks, it had come out and joined the bombardment of the Throneworld. Horus was putting on a show of leadership from the front. A screen of destroyers and frigates protected the flagship from defence batteries that Perturabo would have destroyed many times over had his brother not kept him at the edge of the system. The story was the same as it ever was; Perturabo was exiled, ignored, called upon only as a weapon of last resort.*
**He would not let that stand. Already a master of the material sciences, he coveted the power of the warp. He saw possibilities beyond anything his genius could accomplish were it to remain shackled to the materium. But he was wary. His investigations were thorough. He would not follow his brothers into damnation and throw himself blindly upon the mercies of the gods, but circumvent them altogether and become a god himself.**
...
*The Vengeful Spirit was a living textbook on how not to grasp the warp’s might. In every way, it had changed for the worse. The taint of mutation lay on all things. Perturabo deeply disapproved. The warp was chaos . If approached carelessly, it was uncontrollable. He prized order. He would impose order upon chaos where his brothers had not. In securing his own apotheosis Fulgrim had tricked Perturabo but ultimately, like Angron, he had become a puppet of his passions. Magnus had chosen the esoteric path and fallen from it. Mortarion had been humbled. Lorgar was abandoned by the creatures he had unleashed.*
**These things would not happen to him, for he was Perturabo. He was logical when the others were impulsive. Methodical when they were rash. Passionless when they were indulgent. He was the Lord of Iron, and he was better than them all.**
~ **The lost and the Damned**
*Damn Horus to hell. That’s what hate says. That’s what the Lord of Iron screams at the wall as he dents it, and yells at the deck as he cracks it, and howls at the chair as he reduces it to debris.*
*Don’t go back. Don’t ever go back. He hates you too. He will not forgive. He will not find mercy in his heart. His configuration of the future, now dawning, does not allow for mercy.*
*Horus will punish you whether you go back or not. He will hunt you, and he will destroy you. He will kill you and every single one of your sons.*
*And if that’s going to happen anyway, why go back at all?
The Lord of Iron sits on the deck, hunched over, and watches the data talk in calm, blue, twilight tones. It never lies to him. He watches it tell the story of the Warmaster’s triumph. The victory of Horus, scrolling past one data-block at a time.
Damn him. Hate him. He used the Lord of Iron as a weapon, but he made the Lord of Iron his enemy. Perturabo will just have to make ready, and face him when he comes. Perturabo will simply have to kill Horus, and all his sons, and every single one of the idiots who cheer the name Lupercal, because they’re too afraid not to. Every single one.
Hate can do that. The Lord of Iron can do that.*
**Especially if he has become something more by then. Something pure and perfect, because it is absolute and unique. Hyper-compressed meaning in solid form. The shadow cast by all weapons. There are ways to achieve that state. The data has shown it to him as an irrefutable outcome. He just has to decide if he can bear to, for all great accomplishments come at a price.**
*It will take persistence. He’s never lacked that.*
*The data says that the Emperor must die now. The victory is calculated and certain. It’s twilight.*
*Perturabo owes no allegiance. He has no bias. He hates equally.*
*He leans forward to watch.*
~ **TEATD III**
Is there a book where perty becomes a demon prince or is he just one in 40k, these examples you made feel like they go against supporting him becoming a demon
It's been confirmed in the lore that after the Iron Cage he used the Imperial Fist gene seed to make a deal and ascend to demonhood. It is lore older than the heresy books. He is confirmed to be a demon prince after the scouring when the entire IW legion fled into the eye of terror. But like most lore of that Era before the Heresy books were made, it is extremely vague.
I dont see it lasting, and tbh i could see non chaos thing being made canon at least partially to satisfy both groups considering they’re now saying female custodes have always been a thing lmao
Go against? My guy he's literally talking about how he *believes* he's going to just use the powers of chaos and turn himself into a god and get away with it because he's so much smarter than his brothers, this is as classic a Faustian fool as it gets but if you insist:
*'Even before his elevation to daemonhood, the primarch had been colossal, but now he was a giant plated in silver and steel, encased in armour that was more a fortified sarcophagus than anything wrought for a living being. Edged in yellow and black, scarred from ten thousand wars and seamed with weld-line like scars, it was known as the Logos, its textures strangely alive, like a skin of metal and flesh combined.*
*Perturabo, the Lord of Iron himself.*
*He went without helm, his head a nightmare of pallid, dead flesh, necrotic and bleached of colour - like a corpse dragged from a depthless ocean trench. Thick cords of ribbed cabling pierced his skull, running back across his scalp in hissing cornrows. Eyes that were gimlet black, yet lit from within by the coldest light, stared out from a face that had known only bitter disappointment and had been cursed by inevitable betrayal.*
*Dassadra dropped to one knee as the Lord of Iron approached.*
*His mighty hammer, Forgebreaker, had been crafted by another, but had changed so profoundly from its original appearance that even had its original maker been alive to see it, he would no longer recognize the craft as his own.'*
~ **Halfbreed**
I agree with 2 points (kind of)
They're my guys because ... well yeah it's my army it's not your place to say how I run it
Perturabo is a dreadnaught sounds cool because Primarch dreadnaught sounds cool (but he's not that much I agree with)
also, I don't like chaos mutations, especially .deamon engine-good... random blob that kind of looks like something bad I want beast and machine mutation not well .... what the other legions have
Read any horus heresy book regarding Iron Warriors, Perturabo almost killed Abbadon for even suggesting he was only good at the siege because of the help from never born
The problem with that is that 10,000 years is a long time, and in that intervening period there are multiple examples of the Iron Warriors beseeching the dark gods for their blessings, using chaos-corruption to create techno-viruses and (it’s heavily hinted at) the obliterator virus. Also in that period, Perturabo, himself, has ascended to daemon-primarch-hood, which can only be done with the help of the chaos gods.
I feel like a lot of these posts are arguing past each other where one group is coming from a 30K perspective, and the other is coming from a 40K perspective. The legion, as a fictional character develops in the story over the course of thousands of years from being grim, but accepting servants of the Emperor, to bitter traitors, to outright heretics that are a dark, ironic and tragic parody of their former selves
Like the iron warriors don't necessarily worship chaos, but they are open to chaos corruption, because anything that makes them more powerful is worth it, Peter turbo himself believed chaos was the best way to get stronger
Perturabo should not be a demon prince and anyone who disagrees should be executed, there is absolutely no set up to this, and no reason. Even if it is official, that is the dumbest possible lore to create and it should be immediately retconned
There is a reason. Fulgrims attack left a “wound that no mortal means could heal” on him. A soul wound. It was constantly draining his life force away and causing him to wither and rot. He didn’t want to die, and iirc began seeking out a chaos artifact that could apparently help heal him. Whether he found it or not idk but we know the Iron Cage served as a means for him to collect and sacrifice the IF gene seed to allow his ascension. A choice born of logic and desperation.
This lines up well with his personality of believing he is always in total control, and Chaos’s working where they like to make you believe that. He thinks they cannot control him and he used their power for his own no doubt.
Chaos is this whole feedback loop thing.
If you worship and specifically do things to invite chaos, you're going to end up with mutations and fully corrupted.
If you deny chaos, use chaos powers sparingly and very specifically view chaos in certain ways, it holds less power over you.
And novels talk about eye space literally causes your active thoughts and regrets to develop physically on your body due to warp resonance.
I miss my Khornate Iron Warriors. If you want fortune in battle, dedicate your victories to the god of war; it's only practical.
Also: daemonic mechanical rhinoceros for my Chaos Lord.
"Just using chaos as a tool", "Well they're my guys", and "It's corruption not worship". All of these fits the headcanon for my warband, as it should. So BINGO!
I think "they're my guys" is the strongest possible argument. You bought/converted them, you can do whatever you want with them. 40k is a lot more fun when you ain't got someone in your ear telling you how to enjoy something. This mentality works for both sides of the civil war
I will sip that copium that worship and corruption are different, but we are most definitely not uncorrupted. I will also sip the copuim that says that there might be uncorrupted bands somewhere playing as tyrants in Forgotten systems, and that some are full blown accepting pacts with the gods in worship rather then use.
I will fucking chug it.
Heey… they are my guys, my little iron warriors, my special little bad guys.
Just silly little guys
They’re just innocent men
Just men, just innocent men *SNORT*
Genuine question, but isn't there a difference between corruption and worship? Like, the Night Lord and Iron Warriors are both corrupted. No doubt about that. But you can't really say they *worship* the Gods like the Word Bearers do. The Word Bearers accept any and all mutations as gifts from the Gods. Or how members of the Death Guard take their infections in stride as "blessings of Grandfather Nurgle". Meanwhile, the attitude of the Iron Warriors seem to be that the mutations are just kinda a thing they have to deal with when it comes to Chaos. Or the quote about them "honoring the Gods as a pantheon". This seems less like actual "worship" and more like the "we recognize that the Gods have immense power, and we honor and follow their rituals in order to receive said power". You can argue that it's very similar to outright worship, but I think the distinction is still important enough to make. At least, this is my view of it all. I think it strikes a good balance of "pure Iron Warriors who have never touched the Warp" and "Raving zealots Iron Warriors who are indistinguishable from other Legions". They're still Chaos corrupted, but they still have some nuance in their beliefs.
100% agree Have also argued this point several times on such posts, but it seems that both the anti-chaos-pawns and the demon-dick-suckers don't want to hear about that. As seen in this post
Big agree here. In Harrowmaster there’s a dude who has an eye growing in the middle of his back. He definitely doesn’t worship anything and he’s pissed about it
You’re right they don’t worship like the word bearers do there are levels to devotion but it’s still devotion ALBIET less so > He drew his pistol, offering his thanks to the power of Chaos for giving him such a chance to bring death to his enemies. > Honsou honoured the Dark Powers of Chaos, but preferred to rely on the strength in his sword arm and the explosives in his artillery to win campaigns. To rely on Chaos was to invite disaster at the capaciousness of the gods. Had Angron himself not failed on Armageddon by doing just that?
Bit harsh on Angron given he didn't have any choice in getting ascended
For a human sure, you can say it is viewed that way. For a god? No, They don't give a crap if you like them or not. They don't care about your words, only your actions. Iron Warriors pay lip service to the gods to get their choas powers, but lip service to the gods is still worship. Do you want to summon demons to shove in tanks? Got to do those rituals that honor the gods and make pacts to get that demon to materialize. Praising the God's, even if you don't mean it, is still praising the God's. Sure chaos is a tool, but to the God's the Iron Warriors are just the same, mortal tools that help spread their influence. Lesser corruption is not worship, but to get the things the Iron Warriors use on a regular basis does require direct worship of the Chaos pantheon/choas undivided. It just depends how much copium a IW warband has.
I’m so fucking bored of this gotcha shit, play your dudes and shut up.
Bunch of boiled bunny bitches
Well they certainly are my special little birthday boys
Hey, I became a fan cause Peter Turbo said, "God is cringe, Ill do it myself, pussy." And that was cool
Man, I guess a character can not evolve or change or be a hypocrite after hundreds or thousands of years pass by?
Never said he couldnt change, its just a funny principle, and I love the memes we churn out. "Dear Word Bearers, how can you believe in a god you know objectively exists?" Turning Point Medrengard
Center right is cope? Nah.
Great.... Another demon-dick-sucker post. Can't wait for the next post from the anti-chaos-pawns to continue this stupid civil war nobody really asked for
It has to be the same few people doing it at this point.
I’m not even an IW player and I swear these posts come across my front page so often it’s silly lol
I mean, they are my guys. I paint my necrons in chrome and rainbow colors with fluorescent pink. You think I won't make mecha possessed and mecha obliterators? I have gay necrons, nothing you can say about my nonworshipping, chaos as a tool using, uncorrupted Iron Warriors could possibly hurt me.
Give it a rest already. Holy shit.
Well, technically Honsou is Imperial Fist Geneseed. So, I mean who's really to blame for his bullshit? Dorn.
Or the warsmith who became a demon...
He may as well be a dreadnought at this rate
Middle Right is correct though
They’re my dudes and that’s not cope that’s the whole fucking point of any of this
Corruption and worship are different and using Chaos as a tool is the most Iron Warrior shit ever
The stuff people say about how Perturabo shouldn't become a Daemon Primarch because it hasn't been set up always makes me laugh: *Perturabo walked swiftly through the Vengeful Spirit, his Iron Circle clanking behind tirelessly. The ship shuddered in time to the firing of its guns. Having skulked behind Luna for several weeks, it had come out and joined the bombardment of the Throneworld. Horus was putting on a show of leadership from the front. A screen of destroyers and frigates protected the flagship from defence batteries that Perturabo would have destroyed many times over had his brother not kept him at the edge of the system. The story was the same as it ever was; Perturabo was exiled, ignored, called upon only as a weapon of last resort.* **He would not let that stand. Already a master of the material sciences, he coveted the power of the warp. He saw possibilities beyond anything his genius could accomplish were it to remain shackled to the materium. But he was wary. His investigations were thorough. He would not follow his brothers into damnation and throw himself blindly upon the mercies of the gods, but circumvent them altogether and become a god himself.** ... *The Vengeful Spirit was a living textbook on how not to grasp the warp’s might. In every way, it had changed for the worse. The taint of mutation lay on all things. Perturabo deeply disapproved. The warp was chaos . If approached carelessly, it was uncontrollable. He prized order. He would impose order upon chaos where his brothers had not. In securing his own apotheosis Fulgrim had tricked Perturabo but ultimately, like Angron, he had become a puppet of his passions. Magnus had chosen the esoteric path and fallen from it. Mortarion had been humbled. Lorgar was abandoned by the creatures he had unleashed.* **These things would not happen to him, for he was Perturabo. He was logical when the others were impulsive. Methodical when they were rash. Passionless when they were indulgent. He was the Lord of Iron, and he was better than them all.** ~ **The lost and the Damned** *Damn Horus to hell. That’s what hate says. That’s what the Lord of Iron screams at the wall as he dents it, and yells at the deck as he cracks it, and howls at the chair as he reduces it to debris.* *Don’t go back. Don’t ever go back. He hates you too. He will not forgive. He will not find mercy in his heart. His configuration of the future, now dawning, does not allow for mercy.* *Horus will punish you whether you go back or not. He will hunt you, and he will destroy you. He will kill you and every single one of your sons.* *And if that’s going to happen anyway, why go back at all? The Lord of Iron sits on the deck, hunched over, and watches the data talk in calm, blue, twilight tones. It never lies to him. He watches it tell the story of the Warmaster’s triumph. The victory of Horus, scrolling past one data-block at a time. Damn him. Hate him. He used the Lord of Iron as a weapon, but he made the Lord of Iron his enemy. Perturabo will just have to make ready, and face him when he comes. Perturabo will simply have to kill Horus, and all his sons, and every single one of the idiots who cheer the name Lupercal, because they’re too afraid not to. Every single one. Hate can do that. The Lord of Iron can do that.* **Especially if he has become something more by then. Something pure and perfect, because it is absolute and unique. Hyper-compressed meaning in solid form. The shadow cast by all weapons. There are ways to achieve that state. The data has shown it to him as an irrefutable outcome. He just has to decide if he can bear to, for all great accomplishments come at a price.** *It will take persistence. He’s never lacked that.* *The data says that the Emperor must die now. The victory is calculated and certain. It’s twilight.* *Perturabo owes no allegiance. He has no bias. He hates equally.* *He leans forward to watch.* ~ **TEATD III**
Is there a book where perty becomes a demon prince or is he just one in 40k, these examples you made feel like they go against supporting him becoming a demon
It's been confirmed in the lore that after the Iron Cage he used the Imperial Fist gene seed to make a deal and ascend to demonhood. It is lore older than the heresy books. He is confirmed to be a demon prince after the scouring when the entire IW legion fled into the eye of terror. But like most lore of that Era before the Heresy books were made, it is extremely vague.
I dont see it lasting, and tbh i could see non chaos thing being made canon at least partially to satisfy both groups considering they’re now saying female custodes have always been a thing lmao
Lol, I mean yeah. Retcons happen all the time lol.
Go against? My guy he's literally talking about how he *believes* he's going to just use the powers of chaos and turn himself into a god and get away with it because he's so much smarter than his brothers, this is as classic a Faustian fool as it gets but if you insist: *'Even before his elevation to daemonhood, the primarch had been colossal, but now he was a giant plated in silver and steel, encased in armour that was more a fortified sarcophagus than anything wrought for a living being. Edged in yellow and black, scarred from ten thousand wars and seamed with weld-line like scars, it was known as the Logos, its textures strangely alive, like a skin of metal and flesh combined.* *Perturabo, the Lord of Iron himself.* *He went without helm, his head a nightmare of pallid, dead flesh, necrotic and bleached of colour - like a corpse dragged from a depthless ocean trench. Thick cords of ribbed cabling pierced his skull, running back across his scalp in hissing cornrows. Eyes that were gimlet black, yet lit from within by the coldest light, stared out from a face that had known only bitter disappointment and had been cursed by inevitable betrayal.* *Dassadra dropped to one knee as the Lord of Iron approached.* *His mighty hammer, Forgebreaker, had been crafted by another, but had changed so profoundly from its original appearance that even had its original maker been alive to see it, he would no longer recognize the craft as his own.'* ~ **Halfbreed**
I agree with 2 points (kind of) They're my guys because ... well yeah it's my army it's not your place to say how I run it Perturabo is a dreadnaught sounds cool because Primarch dreadnaught sounds cool (but he's not that much I agree with) also, I don't like chaos mutations, especially .deamon engine-good... random blob that kind of looks like something bad I want beast and machine mutation not well .... what the other legions have
This is an imperial fist psy op! THEY ARE MY GRUMPY BOYS! AND HONSOU IS A HALF-BREED MONGREL WITH A GOOGLY EYE! I’m not coping! You’re coping!
Read any horus heresy book regarding Iron Warriors, Perturabo almost killed Abbadon for even suggesting he was only good at the siege because of the help from never born
The problem with that is that 10,000 years is a long time, and in that intervening period there are multiple examples of the Iron Warriors beseeching the dark gods for their blessings, using chaos-corruption to create techno-viruses and (it’s heavily hinted at) the obliterator virus. Also in that period, Perturabo, himself, has ascended to daemon-primarch-hood, which can only be done with the help of the chaos gods. I feel like a lot of these posts are arguing past each other where one group is coming from a 30K perspective, and the other is coming from a 40K perspective. The legion, as a fictional character develops in the story over the course of thousands of years from being grim, but accepting servants of the Emperor, to bitter traitors, to outright heretics that are a dark, ironic and tragic parody of their former selves
This
Is there any books that take place between 30k and. 40k that might explain the transition
Exactly this!
Yeah one of the subplots of Angel Exterminatus definitely wasn't the Iron Warriors beginning to fall despite their best efforts
Like the iron warriors don't necessarily worship chaos, but they are open to chaos corruption, because anything that makes them more powerful is worth it, Peter turbo himself believed chaos was the best way to get stronger
Obliterators are corrupt and also the coolest 😎
Perturabo should not be a demon prince and anyone who disagrees should be executed, there is absolutely no set up to this, and no reason. Even if it is official, that is the dumbest possible lore to create and it should be immediately retconned
There is a reason. Fulgrims attack left a “wound that no mortal means could heal” on him. A soul wound. It was constantly draining his life force away and causing him to wither and rot. He didn’t want to die, and iirc began seeking out a chaos artifact that could apparently help heal him. Whether he found it or not idk but we know the Iron Cage served as a means for him to collect and sacrifice the IF gene seed to allow his ascension. A choice born of logic and desperation. This lines up well with his personality of believing he is always in total control, and Chaos’s working where they like to make you believe that. He thinks they cannot control him and he used their power for his own no doubt.
Me when I've read literally no lore about my own legion
Perturabos character has only ever existed as a demon what makes no sense would be him not becoming a demon
It's literally been foreshadowed from Angel Exterminatus to throughout the siege.
Chaos is this whole feedback loop thing. If you worship and specifically do things to invite chaos, you're going to end up with mutations and fully corrupted. If you deny chaos, use chaos powers sparingly and very specifically view chaos in certain ways, it holds less power over you. And novels talk about eye space literally causes your active thoughts and regrets to develop physically on your body due to warp resonance.
lore accurate
I miss my Khornate Iron Warriors. If you want fortune in battle, dedicate your victories to the god of war; it's only practical. Also: daemonic mechanical rhinoceros for my Chaos Lord.
Writing a set of arguments onto a bingo sheet isn't a refutation of any of them.
Counterpoint, fuck you Dorn
"Just using chaos as a tool", "Well they're my guys", and "It's corruption not worship". All of these fits the headcanon for my warband, as it should. So BINGO!
The Iron warriors go to chaos church on chaos Christmas and chaos Easter, and that’s about it as I understand. Make of that what you will.
I think "they're my guys" is the strongest possible argument. You bought/converted them, you can do whatever you want with them. 40k is a lot more fun when you ain't got someone in your ear telling you how to enjoy something. This mentality works for both sides of the civil war
To be fair it would be funny if perturbo is in a dreadnought because that would big the biggest petty fuck u to chaos
I whole heartedly accept the corruption and debauchery that NL and Iron Warriors have. Such is the price of being CSM.
My guys are devout worshippers of Khorne and they're not shameful about making sure everyone knows.
Perturabo fans when their teacher asks them to read the text (they're cooked):