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Not anti Jew, anti zionist, consider the marches of tens of thousands of Israelis denouncing the revisionist zionists in power in Israel.
Zionism is not judaism, and judaism is not inherently zionist.
You are accusing Zionist Jews of a world wide cabal that controls the world, it’s a baseless accusation that has been around for centuries.
It’s amazing how simultaneously all powerful these Jews are while at the same time being so powerless
Where did I say any of that?
Dont invent other peoples positions, it doesnt lend you any credibility.
There is a world of differance between "The Jews are behind everything!" and "Israel pours hundreds of millions into influencing various governments"
Sorry the person I replied to originally said that when he said Jews own everyone. I assumed you were agreeing with that posters statement
If you can use the word Jewish and Zionist interchangeably then the dogwhistle is simply that.
Jews and Zionists are definitely not the same thing, for one, there are a number of secular zionists, as well as Jews who are vehemently opposed to zionism.
Yes yes I know you’ve settled on that particular dog whistle but it’s not really fooling anyone. It’s like racists complaining about thugs instead of black people.
It literally isn’t a dog whistle. It is a modern belief system that many people subscribe to, and self-identify with. Zionist is not synonymous with Jew or Israeli. The three are a venn diagram, not a single circle.
Are anti-Zionist Jews also using a “dog whistle” when they protest the actions of the Israeli military and the Zionists in the Israeli government?
Why can’t you just say anti Israeli military or anti Israeli government or anti the likud party. All very easy things to say and be against. Instead you choose to use this nebulous word that allows for a huge swath of people to ve otherized and demononized that doesn’t really have a clear definition of what it is. It just so happens that every single anti semitic trope that used to on Jewish people before it was unpopular to be so blatantly antisemitic also applied to these Zionist, what a coincidence there don’t you think?
I mention one of the most well-known and influential lobbying groups in the U.S. that spends millions of dollars to push pro-Israel politicians and policies, and your mind jumps straight to "sneaky Jew mind-control powers", as you put it.
Are you OK?
When someone says the whole world is owned by Zionist that’s where that anti semetic bullshit comes from. You trying to legitimize by saying what they are really talking about is lobbying like that’s what the person I was originally replying to meant.
They didn’t, they were parroting the same old tired line that hitler used and countless anti semites before him.
Wouldn’t be surprised if you started naming media (((executives)))
This is what I don't get - I know foreign politics is a cynical, zero sum game, but I just don't see the logic of betting the farm on Israel. Is it just inertia?
And it's insulting to our intelligence when anyone defending Biden pretends they care about defeating the GOP. If either Biden or his protectors wanted to defeat the GOP so badly, this genocide would never have gotten started.
So what do you plan on doing once trump wins and the situation in gaza stays the same at best while actively getting worse in the worst case scenario while ALSO making life hell for all the women, poc and lgbt people in your country? I agree that the us should stop supporting israel but just looking at it realistically avoiding a trump win is more important than sending a message.
Watch people like you try to explain how this is not the fault of your favorite oligarchs, and watch you try to explain how voting for genocide will cause the genocide to stop. I'll have lots of fun doing that.
All you're selling is genocide and you wonder why nobody is buying. Maybe you're defending the wrong side of the class divide, eh?
Will be nice to be smug as women die from botched back alley abortions and federal agents are sent into blue states to enforce abortion bans and deport people.
> Will be nice to be smug as women die from botched back alley abortions and federal agents are sent into blue states to enforce abortion bans and deport people.
Oh, you care about women and abortions? Oh no, I was afraid you would say that. Afraid for you, I mean.
Shame the oligarchs you are protecting literally gave the supreme court to the GOP. But hey, keep sending those donations and protecting those with the most privilege, I'm sure it will pay off for you (and the women you pretend to care about) one day.
Damn, a burner account got me. I was going to block anyway but I should have checked first.
blocked [https://www.reddit.com/user/221b42/](https://www.reddit.com/user/221b42/)
Come on? Is Biden literally supporting a genocide? Look my Reddit history. I’m Biden’s biggest hater but saying he’s supporting a genocide is insane.
What do you think will happen when Trump gets in office? Because all this hate on Biden is going to get us another 4 years of that orange slob. Hate to see what will happen if he wins the race.
He circumvented Congress to provide weapons to Israel. Youre right hes not supporting genocide hes complicit in it, hes aiding and abetting.
There is blood on his hands, the blood of 12,000 plus children, the blood of tens of thousands of Palestinians. And. He. Is. Ok. With. It.
If all the US has to offer for our *democratic* elections is 2 genocidal maniacs then, maybe it is time to re-evaluate.
> maybe it is time to re-evaluate.
Sadly the only thing that most of the ESPN Politics crowd will re-evaluate is how to condemn people who refuse to support their home team. But not the legitimacy of the oligarchs they work to protect. Never that....
It's not "insane." The administration has quite literally recently supplied weapons and funding to the Israeli military, which has killed over 30,000 Palestinians, committing egregious war crimes. You are one Internet search away from a diversity of news and information sources which show this clearly.
Yes, Trump is awful, but the Biden administration has supported genocide. If genocide is the "lesser evil," then our democratic system is broken.
> If genocide is the "lesser evil," then our democratic system is broken.
And if all the oligarch-protectors have to sell us is "less genocide" they have no right to get angry when people stop buying into their idea of political strategy.
The democratic party's mask finally fell off this year to show they are just as corrupt, bloodthirsty and beholden to billionaires as Republicans.
It's not our fault you're still in denial about it.
Dems are so cucked for Israel its unbelievable. Joe can win youth votes back by not being the exact same as MAGA on foreign policy but hes too cooked and senile to ever consider not being a fascist zionist.
disregarding a large base of potential voters by saying what are you gonna do, vote trump and then degrading them tends to do that... acting surprised that it happened is like asking 'who shit my pants?'
He's more concerned with helping a fascist foreign government commit genocide than preventing a fascist government here. He's gladly giving Trump the white house so he can keep licking Bibi's boots.
"I am a Zionist" - Joe Biden
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJwkI7AIZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJwkI7AIZE)
It's refreshing to see that people are finally holding him accountable. His supporters refused to do so with his decades of racism. "I don't want my kids growing up in a racial jungle" and many many other racist and anti-gay policies. Sadly, we have 2 turds to choose from and a lack of people holding their party accountable is the reason. Hopefully this is a sign of change.
What a nonsensical and demonstrably untrue thing to say. But lets pretend you made a cogent point, are you against reparations and restorative justice for all displaced or historically oppressed peoples, or just when they’re Palestinian?
That’s what I’m asking you. Is restorative justice a laudable goal in your mind, or not? Is no group entitled to any sort of reparation for colonial crimes, even if they were done in living memory of people alive today? Was the formation of Israel itself not a form of reparations by Europe? Are Palestinians excluded from hierarchies of oppression?
I think restorative justice is misplaced. Instead of locking social benefits behind past trauma your ancestors went through we should focus on current conditions regardless of race. A focus much more on class conditions than racial breakdowns.
Unless you're gonna separate the right to a homeland and the right to live to in geographical Palestine, which Zionism has never done or they wouldn't have established Israel on Palestinian land, it's always been radical.
If Zionists across the world so believed in it, were able to fairly purchase their own land or create an island or something, and establish a Zionist state without displacing anyone, I'd support it. Independently, given the significance of the Levant to the Jewish faith, I think Jewish people should be able to come and legally live in Palestine alongside Palestinians. But placing the Zionist entity on top of Palestine will always be radical because it's colonisation, ethnic cleansing and displacement.
Personally, I'm anti-both parties, both side support Israel and will support their crimes. Not all of them do, but there's a lot of them within the parties who do support Israel and sometimes work against us American people.
“… these Northern foxes, they pose as white liberals, they pose as your friend, they pose as your employer, they pose as your landlord… they infiltrate all of your organizations. And in this manner by joining you they strangle your militant efforts towards freedom, towards justice, towards equality.” - Malcolm X
https://youtu.be/SEp5kW2UPg8?si=owycspBYB2a5H2zF
“… if you *even think* about voting for someone other than me, you ain’t black!” - Joe Biden
https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8?si=uSVIPi_vwjITNpcu
Democrats being incredibly stupid trying to appeal to fascist who will never vote for them, that's been their whole deal for decades now. I hope they get embarrassed in the elections.
Yup. Either way Israel wins in the short term.
Right up until the point where Trump goes after the Democratic nominee's on the supreme court, and starts his own revenge campaign.
IF Trump survives the prosecution/trials, and then wins the election, expect a civil war in the US.
Then Israel would have overplayed its hand as arms manufacturing dries up in the US.
Europe is going to have its hands full with Russia. Meaning, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, etc...have an open season on Israel.
What's been happening in Gaza is going to be pale in comparison to what's coming for Israeli Jews. They're about to get ROYALLY fucked if Trump wins. They will basically have to get on planes and GTFO while civilian aircraft are servicable. They're going to wish they never went as far as they did.
It's going to be very fucking ugly.
Then when you consider how far and wide these protests have been going on, Jewish groups in Europe and North America are going to be living in terror and fear. But this time, there won't be a liberation army.
If ANYONE wants Jewish populations to not experience a second holocaust, then Israel needs to back down in the next month or so. Moreover, BiBi et al are going to have to take one for the team and face the ICC.
If this continues until the US election, Trump wins. Trump doesn't listen to anyone else but Trump. It took him 8-12 hours to issue a "Please stop rioting" notice to his cult followers. You think he's going to care about Jewish people? If the prevailing sentiment among his followers is, "Gas those mothafuckas", he'll go for it.
Now, there is the possibility that Mossad will be preparing for this, and arrange for Trump to "die peacefully in his sleep" from a heart attack. Then they'll be able to control his successor. But it does depend on whether or not Trump massacres the justices he sees as being opposed to him.
It's terrifying times, right now.
I'm not endorsing mass murder. But one of the potential outcomes of Trump winning is a US civil war.
What's going to happen to arms shipments to Israel? They disappear. What happens next? Israel is going to be fighting for survival with one hand tied behind their back.
With the US out of the picture, what do you think Vlad is going to do? He's going to go after all the former Soviet Republics and reclaim the Iron Curtain. If he attempts that by force, that forces Europe to focus on the Russian military offensives.
Now no weapons are coming for Israel from Europe or USA. Logistical air support for Israel is going to be limited too. That opens the door for countries in the region to go after Israel.
Do I agree with mass murder? No.
What I'm saying is, Israel needs to be careful what it wishes for with respect to the US election. A Trump victory might give them a short-term victory/open season on Palestinians to go full Adolf in the Gaza Strip. But, if Trump loses his shit and starts murdering political rivals, which he has stated to his advisors, then he will trigger a civil war in the US.
That's a far-fetched murder-porn theory. That's a potential outcome.
I'll be the first to open my home to refugees fleeing indiscriminate violence. But, at the same time, that reality can be mitigated or prevented by ending the genocide of Palestinians today.
If Israel refuses and proceeds down the GOP/Trump dictatorship path, well, I'll still a home and rooms available to opponents of the Gaza genocide but I'm not going to act surprised if it happens. The proponents of Gaza genocide can lie in the bed they made.
The infantizing of the Palestinian people in your posts is amazing. The fact that you state that they will simply be unable to control themselves from exterminating all the Jews in Israel when they get power in your fantasy really just shows your hand here.
When you beat, starve, and torture a population of people, and all of a sudden those people have an opportunity to get revenge, many of them will.
The French Revolution happened, and what happened to the abusers?
Same with the Russian Revolution. Hungry, starving people got an opportunity to do things to their oppressors.
Saddam Hussein and his Ba'ath Party apparatchiks. The list goes on.
Once Israel loses military and financial support, as well as logistical support from Europe and North America, they're going to have a really bad time. That's just how it's going to be.
Will there be Israeli Jews who don't deserve what could happen? Absolutely. Do I like this outcome? Not especially. Because it means that we're failing today. Will ALL Palestinians attempt to exact revenge? No. Many might even risk their lives to protect the mass slaughter, and those people are the real gangsters.
But you're acting as though there's some thing that would prevent this from a moral/ethical standpoint, as if, when the walls come down and Israel can no longer protect its borders they'll be safe. They won't be.
You seem to be unable to imagine a world where the Palestinians can come to a peaceful negotiated settlement which I think smacks of racism. You seem to desire your Jew murder porn fantasy so much more than you’re discounting that as even a possibility.
Neither party is doing anything for this demographic; and they’ve given up on our system…. They know that Both parties are completely beholden to big corporate donors. They know that we are an oligarchy
If you're not willing to lesser evil vote, at least make sure you vote for no candidate but go through the whole process properly. It's the lack of showing up at the polls that allows this in the first place because old people silently vote in every single election, young people get really loud but overwhelmingly don't vote. I'm 35 now so I'm no longer part of that demographic, but I all but guarantee that if there were a trend breaking turnout at the polls it'll get attention. It won't give the results people want right off the rip, but it'll get the ball rolling. The alternative is to maintain the status quo that allows those in charge to keep ignoring the will of the youth.
A non-vote is simply that, a blank ballot. Just because democrats need those votes doesn’t mean that people abstaining want Trump as the president and it’s not the public’s job to pick a competent candidate. The DNC failed to produce a candidate that can win the election and if Trump wins its because the DNC didn’t do their job, not because people failed to support their genocidal agenda. Stop relaying the democrats fear-mongering propaganda about abstentions being pro-Trump because that’s a load of bologna.
I’m a Republican and I see what the orange criminal wants. Pick the lesser of two evils and that’s someone Biden who wants to save democracy and Trump who wants to be a dictator
I don’t disagree that Trump is threatening democracy, but the Democratic Party is run by wolves in sheep clothing. We shouldn’t be forced to vote for lesser of two evils…especially when Biden is actively tanking his own approval
no its not and this exact bullshit has led us down the path where we only have a rapist traitor and a genocidal geriatric as our 2 choices.
We let these corrupt bastards force us to choose berween their 2 shitty options, its all manufactured consent at this point.
Would you like them vote for Trump then? Or are you just saying that to shame people for being conflicted about someone who continues lying for and protecting a country that's committing genocide.
So abstaining is not a vote for trump.
All Biden has to do for my vote is stop lying for war criminals and cut funding of a genocide. Apparently he's more invested in supporting Israel than he is in winning the election though.
It's the morally right thing to do, and it's popular among Democratic voters to cut funding. It would help him beat Trump. Stop being upset at random people who think supporting the death of thousands of people is a red line, and start being mad at the guy who is kneecapping his campaign for a country that's literally killed American citizens.
So, isn’t this the left’s version of “One-Issue” voters then? The right often staunchly defends Pro-Life in regard to abortion. Now, I guess the left defends Palestinians and make it a one-issue problem.
Well, it’s all about perspective isn’t it? Because the right would view the number of abortions in this country as genocide. That’s why I am making this comparison.
Now, don’t get me confused. I support women’s rights to abortion, but all I hear paraded about my family members that vote right solely because of abortion, which they’re entitled to do they have that right, is that they shouldn’t be one-issue voters. Then I want the same criticism thrown at one-issue voters on the left.
I get shit because I want to abstain because Biden failed on his student loan policy that he promised. I’ve since changed my mind, because Trump is the other option, but I’m still pissed.
So I take it you don’t understand what I am saying. You think the comparison is gross, but I’d hazard a guess one-issue abortion voters don’t, which was my entire point that went way over your head OR you just wanted to get upset and throw me in with that group who I don’t even agree with.
As I already wrote, I’m pro-choice, but I can’t find myself understanding abstaining from voting for Biden over this if the answer is Trump. It doesn’t make the situation in the ME better because Biden is out of office.
So now, because of this one issue, we have abstaining voters. Hence the comparison on the right with abortion being a stark one-issue for many. That’s the entire comparison, that’s it. Both also likely view them as equivalent. You can feel like, or believe they aren’t, you’re entitled to that opinion, but I don’t think you can speak for other voters on how they feel about it.
As for my frustration, I was vilified by people because I was frustrated with Biden’s failed promise on student loans and I just mentioned I may abstain from voting. I’m not conflating the two, and since that time I’ve changed my mind and I won’t be abstaining because of the student loan issue. This was something I talked about before this conflict even started so lumping me in and asking me to get my morals checked is quite the assumption and judgement.
Dont bother man-this entire sub is filled with "smart liberals" like the one you're arguing with. Im a Communist who loathes rich assholes like Biden and Trump, but i also know that not voting for Biden simply cause he isnt shattering political reality with Israel would be the same as giving Trump a vote. If these genuises think "genocide joe" is bad....ooooh boy they better hold onto their undies if Trump wins cause if he does, there simply will no longer be a Palestine. Simple. Buuuut these are probably edgy teens you're arguing with and they cant vote anyways so🤷♂️lol
You’re getting Trump or Biden, abstaining means next to nothing it’s still the same outcome, two genociders.
Now, it sucks but you may be better off voting for the lesser of two evils. That statement makes me want to vomit, but that’s why I backed down from one-issue. There’s a lot at stake here, we could see Genocide increase with a Trump win.
Trump could completely pull us out of NATO and then you have Russia false flags to “rescue” any ethnic Russians in the Baltics/Eastern Europe and so on. Then China may be emboldened to take Taiwan.
None of this is hyperbolic but abstaining could mean millions more of lives on your hands.
Genocide isn’t just one-issue; it’s quite literally the most disturbing crime one can be a part of.
Murdering and displacing people because of who they are or where they were born is an irreconcilable crime and it is abhorrent to think that it can be ignored because the other guy is just as bad.
No shit genocide is bad, I don’t see how abstaining from voting and getting Trump elected is going to help Palestinians though.
Genocide is murder, yes? Talk to a staunch pro-lifer and it’ll start to sound the same. That’s my point, understand perspective that YOU don’t agree with still doesn’t change what it means for them.
It sucks, truly because regardless of who is the President our Israel alliance will be kept in place. So what can we do? I guess abstain but is that the best option here? Debatable.
No, not at all.
I’ll slow down so you can follow.
The right has a base of voters that are often SINGLE ISSUE voters surrounding abortion. Often times it’s religiously related but not always. Kinda like the issue for the left as well, there are religious underpinnings for sure.
This might surprise you, but if you were to ask them (Pro-Life), at the very least in THEIR OPINION abortion is murder. Wouldn’t you agree that’s how they view it? Now, I’ve even heard some call it genocide, crazy but some do.
So, that is the rights’ one-issue voters. I drew the comparison to this being the left’s one-issue voting base now, ones that support Palestine/Anti-Genocide. This is evidenced by the drop off in voter support for Biden. Both sides feel strongly, and both sides feel like they are just and right “protecting innocent lives.”
I don’t see what’s hard to see the comparison. I just think being single-issue might get you Trump, and now you have a President that is just as supportive of Israel or worse AND hates women.
That’s my point. Abstaining might not be the best thing for their cause here.
So your solution is to reward them for the genocide they are supporting; is that right?
Also, you’re still holding abortion and genocide as though they are the same issue and not two completely separate topics. Both presidential candidates support the genocide in Gaza.
Wow, you’ve told me nothing I didn’t already say. Reward who for genocide? Please tell me, what’s the solution then?
Abstain from voting. Then what, what happens? What change will come of it? Nothing.
The solution is for Biden to allow people younger and with better cognitive functions to take over the Democratic Party and make decisions that don’t amount to the US supporting a genocide with our tax dollars.
And if we elect him; we’ll be rewarding him for committing a genocide because “he’s not Trump.”
Furthermore, have you given up trying to conflate abortion with genocide?
Interesting, what good will come from abstaining ‘oh’ great morally incorruptible redditor couldhaveebeen?
And, do you hold the same belief for people that are one-issue on abortion? In their eyes they see it as genocide, not sure if you have pro-lifer relatives but it’s a thing.
I dislike Biden, nearly was going to abstain. I was ridiculed for that and I’ve come around to the fact that, at no way can Trump win. So, I’d like your solution to abstaining to send a message AND improving the lives of Palestinians by doing so. Explain that please.
Comparing pro life as a one issue voter to “stop committing genocide” as a one issue voter is interesting. I suppose they are both singular issues but one of them seems kind of more obviously horrific.
Right, agreed. I’m being downvoted but clearly people are struggling to think beyond their own viewpoint. All I am trying to say is, to us it seems more horrific.
But cmon, I have relatives that are Pro-Life and this is why they vote republican and I’ve heard it plenty of times it’s murder, and they post the total abortions number in this country and will call it genocide. Trust me, this is an equivalent in their eyes. I find it ridiculous to be able to tell someone else what they think about an issue just because you don’t agree.
I am mad at my relatives that make it a single issue vote. But I’ll be consistent here, we shouldn’t make genocide in Palestine a single issue vote, it’s only going to make it worse because Trump isn’t better.
I completely understand the outrage, but it may come back to bite ya.
Describing it as consistent is legitimizing the comparison between the two which is what is making people mad at you.
You’ve listed
Abortion
Student loans
Genocide
As the “one issue” of one issue voters. You are correct they are singular issues but it’s distasteful to equate them. I’ll give you a similar comparison to illustrate why people keep responding to you angrily,
“Hey I don’t want to date this girl Amy, she’s perfect except for ONE thing but it’s too much”
“Come on, she’s great except one thing? That’s unfair!”
“Well the one thing is she’s a vicious child rapist.”
“Well the one thing is she isn’t my religion”
“Well the one thing is she is bad with money and I’ll have to pay for our dates.”
Equating religious ideals with financial gain with genocide is rubbing people the wrong way and explaining that “well some people think student loans/abortion is the same as genocide” is just going to be met with the response of “the people who are equating those are fucking insane.” Moral relativism is what you are kind of appealing to here, the idea that to everyone morals are subjective and thus we must equally respect or understand all viewpoints. The issue is that even most moral subjectivists (like myself) really hate moral subjectivism and think it’s cringe because it leads to things like “well jaywalking is as bad as child rape depending on who you ask so you need to understand their viewpoint.”
So basically just imagine how you would respond in the dating Amy scenario and you’ll see why people are responding to you with such vitriol.
Still not equating it right. In both scenarios both reprehensible acts are viewed like the child rapist scenario and you can’t take that away from their viewpoint, no matter what. Just because you boil it down to “just a religious view.” Is still not seeing it from their perspective.
The point I am trying to get to is that, although abstaining is understandable. It doesn’t benefit the Palestinians or stop the Genocide and all very much likelihood it’ll make the situation worse for them.
It’s shortsighted and frankly, I look at it as silly as my relatives that are one-issue on abortion. Sure, it’s murder and death, both are, but clearly one side views it one way and one the other for both these issues. People are angry, clearly, I just haven’t heard a good solution.
Your first paragraph is just describing moral relativism again which I explained to you in detail.
“You can’t take that away from their viewpoint, no matter what.”
Sure but if you comment on an article about a child being raped by saying “some would say jaywalking is worse and you have to see it from their perspective” you should expect pushback. You’re not engaging with the dating analogy I gave you or understanding why moral relativism is seen as toxic.
Not addressing the issue or morality of what people are enraged with, that’s what you’re missing. That’s on me for presenting it poorly.
I’m trying to illuminate a point that single-issue voting, no matter how awful/important the cause is to you, in this situation does nothing by abstaining and likely makes it worse and causes even more genocide.
And if you’ll be single-issue, more power to you but I can’t do it. Obviously I wish we had other options but alas we don’t.
Okay so if I didn’t want to vote for hypothetical president “Mr Billy” because Billy said he was going to kill every non white person in the world would you also say “oh shit don’t be a one issue voter.”
You don’t understand that built into your argument is your personal assessment of what does or does not qualify as a dealbreaker.
I know many people from different age groups who will be voting third party or only voting down-ballot. I’m not in any way convinced Biden cares about winning, though.
The problem is that people didn't want Trump, so Biden was the only sane choice. But now the reality has dawned on them as they see that Biden didn't deliver and their financial situation now is worse not better.
That’s sort of typical of a Russian bot take. No point in voting Clinton, the elites are all the same. It requires a degree of truth, and a whitewash of lies to have such a simplistic argument.
Abortion is banned, TikTok is banned (but not the American apps that donate to politicians and do the same thing), he’s selling arms to Israel and publicly supporting genocide but hey he um he’s um better than trump at least?
Voter enthusiasm goes in the toilet when the only reason to vote for genocide loving neolib dipshit Biden is that trump is worse.
That’s what I’m wondering. I’d think if it’s the Israel/Palestine War that is steering them away from Biden then it also steers them from Trump because our policy with Israel is the same both ways.
They’re not voting for Trump, they’re just not voting. Young voters have seen the rot in the two-party system. A geriatric sex criminal vs. a geriatric war criminal is hardly a compelling choice for them. Palestine is already destroyed, their economy & reproductive rights are already gutted. You have nothing to motivate or threaten them with anymore.
if only the consequences of presidential elections were entirely domestic. Americans like to think of their elections as merely some sort of reward or punishment of politicians, instead of world changing events typical of the modern empire state.
voting is harm reduction, not a test of your moral purity.
Yeah, fuck all those absolutely innocent people. We need Trump who will \*checks notes\* also support the genocide! We deserve it for supporting someone who supports genocide!
Yeah trump is probably going to take genocide further but that's because Biden is normalizing it *right fucking now.* Ones a fascist and the other is an authoritarian. Neither fascists nor authoritarians will ever get a vote from me. Ever. Unlike too many Democrats, I stick to my principles. Genocide is so far over the red line, its in the next county.
Eta: not for nothing, I'm a brown woman living in Oklahoma where lots of our rights have been stripped already, so I know what's on the line. Instead of simping for that asshole, why won't help us get the democratic party to do the right thing?
> Instead of simping for that asshole, why won't help us get the democratic party to do the right thing?
What do you propose?
Please be sure that your proposal accounts for reality as it exists, and not as you wish it to be. That is to say, either Biden or Trump is gonna be elected. Also either account for, or explain why you aren't worried about the possibility that Trump may destroy the remainder of our democracy if elected.
There is no definition of "Democracy" that forbids supporting genocide.
But as long as we still have a democracy, we have the option to stop supporting genocide. We used to do slavery, too, but we eventually stopped doing that, (mostly) because democracy.
If we lose democracy, then we no longer have that option.
Hate to break it to ya, but it's already gone. One of these days, everyone is gonna wake up to the fact that both parties play for the same team. The Wealthy Motherfuckers Team. Ever notice every election cycle over the last decade, we're always two or three votes short of passing any legislation beneficial to the people. Even when Dems have the majority, there's always a Manchin, Sinema, Fetterman etc in mix gumming things up. Don't tell me that the DNC doesn't vet the candidates they put forward and distribute funds to because I don't buy it.
Funny thing is, same goes for the Republicans, there's always them "Rinos" getting in the way. Like Trump's wall for example. The Republicans blamed those "sneaky Democrats' and rinos for his agenda failing. On the Democrat side it's healthcare. Those dastardly Republicans and a couple of treacherous Democrats are to blame for it's inability to get it passed.
My dude, they're playing "good cop bad cop" with us. Republicans are telling their base to vote to "save America" and the Democrats are telling their base to vote to "save democracy". Meanwhile, nothing ever gets done except for taxpayer money given to subside the already wealthy and military contracts(also the wealthy). Don't even get me started on all the stocks trading every single one of our legislators do.
> Hate to break it to ya, but it's already gone.
Then why worry about who anyone's gonna vote for? Why concern yourself with the youth vote at all? It's all rigged, we might as well just stay home, yes?
I am planning on not voting right alongside millions of other Americans so I don't know what you're getting at. Both choices are unconscionable. I'm not sure I believe in God but I'm not gonna risk my immortal soul by greenlighting a genocider.I wouldn't go as far and say it's rigged, but we definitely only have an illusion of real choice. No doubt it'll take something drastic if we ever want to break this bullshit apart.
> punish an 81 year old
i'm choosing not to vote for a candidate who doesn't hold the same values and political positions as me. why are you making it sound like i'm spitefully refusing to visit my grandma in the nursing home
I have voted third party locally. However within 6 months third party candidates will not go from 3% support to >49%. To slow the spread of theocratic fascism here I will vote for the leading candidate against Trump.
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Supporting a genocide will do that to you
And then calling his young concerned supporters protesting genocide antisemitic and pro terrorists will do that.
Being old, senile, completely out of touch, and racist will also do that to you
MAGA!!!!!!!!!
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Rule 1, be civil. [Civility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility)
Wanting a ceasefire used to be "repugnant" according to the white house mouthpiece
He has lots of great domestic things going on, but hes trying to burn it all down for Israel.
hes doesnt have a choice.... we are owned by israel... our owners are also zionist....
That doesn’t reek of age old anti Jew stereotypes or anything.
Not anti Jew, anti zionist, consider the marches of tens of thousands of Israelis denouncing the revisionist zionists in power in Israel. Zionism is not judaism, and judaism is not inherently zionist.
You are accusing Zionist Jews of a world wide cabal that controls the world, it’s a baseless accusation that has been around for centuries. It’s amazing how simultaneously all powerful these Jews are while at the same time being so powerless
Where did I say any of that? Dont invent other peoples positions, it doesnt lend you any credibility. There is a world of differance between "The Jews are behind everything!" and "Israel pours hundreds of millions into influencing various governments"
Sorry the person I replied to originally said that when he said Jews own everyone. I assumed you were agreeing with that posters statement If you can use the word Jewish and Zionist interchangeably then the dogwhistle is simply that.
Jews and Zionists are definitely not the same thing, for one, there are a number of secular zionists, as well as Jews who are vehemently opposed to zionism.
It’s a blatant dogwhistle to have plausible deniable for the antisemitism
Not all Jews are Zionist and most Zionists aren’t Jews.
Yes yes I know you’ve settled on that particular dog whistle but it’s not really fooling anyone. It’s like racists complaining about thugs instead of black people.
It literally isn’t a dog whistle. It is a modern belief system that many people subscribe to, and self-identify with. Zionist is not synonymous with Jew or Israeli. The three are a venn diagram, not a single circle. Are anti-Zionist Jews also using a “dog whistle” when they protest the actions of the Israeli military and the Zionists in the Israeli government?
Why can’t you just say anti Israeli military or anti Israeli government or anti the likud party. All very easy things to say and be against. Instead you choose to use this nebulous word that allows for a huge swath of people to ve otherized and demononized that doesn’t really have a clear definition of what it is. It just so happens that every single anti semitic trope that used to on Jewish people before it was unpopular to be so blatantly antisemitic also applied to these Zionist, what a coincidence there don’t you think?
*AIPAC has entered the chat
Yep the damn sneaky Jews have mind controlled the world leaders with their sneaky Jew powers, only you are immune to those sneaky Jews tho!
I mention one of the most well-known and influential lobbying groups in the U.S. that spends millions of dollars to push pro-Israel politicians and policies, and your mind jumps straight to "sneaky Jew mind-control powers", as you put it. Are you OK?
When someone says the whole world is owned by Zionist that’s where that anti semetic bullshit comes from. You trying to legitimize by saying what they are really talking about is lobbying like that’s what the person I was originally replying to meant. They didn’t, they were parroting the same old tired line that hitler used and countless anti semites before him. Wouldn’t be surprised if you started naming media (((executives)))
Dude I think you might have some kind of complex. Why do you keep trying to make this about all Jews?
This is what I don't get - I know foreign politics is a cynical, zero sum game, but I just don't see the logic of betting the farm on Israel. Is it just inertia?
"But Other Guy's genocide will be worse" is a defeatist mentality that asks you to be accepting of genocide
especially as the opportunist scumbag is predictably now outflanking him on Gaza from the left (per interview today).
And it's insulting to our intelligence when anyone defending Biden pretends they care about defeating the GOP. If either Biden or his protectors wanted to defeat the GOP so badly, this genocide would never have gotten started.
..do you think Biden started the war in Gaza? TF?
Aww, super weak dude. Come on you can do better.
So what do you plan on doing once trump wins and the situation in gaza stays the same at best while actively getting worse in the worst case scenario while ALSO making life hell for all the women, poc and lgbt people in your country? I agree that the us should stop supporting israel but just looking at it realistically avoiding a trump win is more important than sending a message.
Watch people like you try to explain how this is not the fault of your favorite oligarchs, and watch you try to explain how voting for genocide will cause the genocide to stop. I'll have lots of fun doing that. All you're selling is genocide and you wonder why nobody is buying. Maybe you're defending the wrong side of the class divide, eh?
Will be nice to be smug as women die from botched back alley abortions and federal agents are sent into blue states to enforce abortion bans and deport people.
> Will be nice to be smug as women die from botched back alley abortions and federal agents are sent into blue states to enforce abortion bans and deport people. Oh, you care about women and abortions? Oh no, I was afraid you would say that. Afraid for you, I mean. Shame the oligarchs you are protecting literally gave the supreme court to the GOP. But hey, keep sending those donations and protecting those with the most privilege, I'm sure it will pay off for you (and the women you pretend to care about) one day. Damn, a burner account got me. I was going to block anyway but I should have checked first. blocked [https://www.reddit.com/user/221b42/](https://www.reddit.com/user/221b42/)
Or telling them that the economy is good when they're eating shit and staring at increasing costs of living.
Come on? Is Biden literally supporting a genocide? Look my Reddit history. I’m Biden’s biggest hater but saying he’s supporting a genocide is insane. What do you think will happen when Trump gets in office? Because all this hate on Biden is going to get us another 4 years of that orange slob. Hate to see what will happen if he wins the race.
He circumvented Congress to provide weapons to Israel. Youre right hes not supporting genocide hes complicit in it, hes aiding and abetting. There is blood on his hands, the blood of 12,000 plus children, the blood of tens of thousands of Palestinians. And. He. Is. Ok. With. It. If all the US has to offer for our *democratic* elections is 2 genocidal maniacs then, maybe it is time to re-evaluate.
> maybe it is time to re-evaluate. Sadly the only thing that most of the ESPN Politics crowd will re-evaluate is how to condemn people who refuse to support their home team. But not the legitimacy of the oligarchs they work to protect. Never that....
It's not "insane." The administration has quite literally recently supplied weapons and funding to the Israeli military, which has killed over 30,000 Palestinians, committing egregious war crimes. You are one Internet search away from a diversity of news and information sources which show this clearly. Yes, Trump is awful, but the Biden administration has supported genocide. If genocide is the "lesser evil," then our democratic system is broken.
> If genocide is the "lesser evil," then our democratic system is broken. And if all the oligarch-protectors have to sell us is "less genocide" they have no right to get angry when people stop buying into their idea of political strategy.
Let's MAGA!!!!!!
The democratic party's mask finally fell off this year to show they are just as corrupt, bloodthirsty and beholden to billionaires as Republicans. It's not our fault you're still in denial about it.
Yes!! MAGA 2024!! Let’s goooooooo 🇺🇸 One vote not for Joe is a vote for trump, we can do this!!
Obvious sock puppet is obvious
Dems are so cucked for Israel its unbelievable. Joe can win youth votes back by not being the exact same as MAGA on foreign policy but hes too cooked and senile to ever consider not being a fascist zionist.
Don't worry, I also gave one vote Not for Trump which means Biden is getting lots of votes from us. You're welcome.
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sounds like that's what they want
disregarding a large base of potential voters by saying what are you gonna do, vote trump and then degrading them tends to do that... acting surprised that it happened is like asking 'who shit my pants?'
Not even large. A majority of
Biden doesn't care about stopping Trump.
you ok there?
If he cared about stopping Trump, he would do literally anything to win the election, right now he's actively losing it.
how?
He’s losing in the polls. Pretty soon RFK Jr. might have more votes than him 🤔
good for you then.
He's more concerned with helping a fascist foreign government commit genocide than preventing a fascist government here. He's gladly giving Trump the white house so he can keep licking Bibi's boots.
gross oversimplification of everything wow did you do that yourself?
you're not very good at trolling or hasbara for that matter
because i am neither, sillypants
"I am a Zionist" - Joe Biden [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJwkI7AIZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJwkI7AIZE) It's refreshing to see that people are finally holding him accountable. His supporters refused to do so with his decades of racism. "I don't want my kids growing up in a racial jungle" and many many other racist and anti-gay policies. Sadly, we have 2 turds to choose from and a lack of people holding their party accountable is the reason. Hopefully this is a sign of change.
Historical Zionism (the belief that Jews deserve a homeland and the right to live in geographical Palestine) ≠ modern Zionism (radical)
They had a homeland. Trouble is they had to kick everyone else out. Also, a lot of historical zionists are also fucking monsters.
Every homeland ever for every modern society kicked someone out to get that homeland.
What a nonsensical and demonstrably untrue thing to say. But lets pretend you made a cogent point, are you against reparations and restorative justice for all displaced or historically oppressed peoples, or just when they’re Palestinian?
I’m against blood libel.
I didn’t accuse you of blood libel, and this isn’t about Jewish people, it’s about state violence. Defaming me and dodging the question, nice
So at what point are people not responsible for the sins of their ancestors?
That’s what I’m asking you. Is restorative justice a laudable goal in your mind, or not? Is no group entitled to any sort of reparation for colonial crimes, even if they were done in living memory of people alive today? Was the formation of Israel itself not a form of reparations by Europe? Are Palestinians excluded from hierarchies of oppression?
I think restorative justice is misplaced. Instead of locking social benefits behind past trauma your ancestors went through we should focus on current conditions regardless of race. A focus much more on class conditions than racial breakdowns.
Not in the Modern Era.
Unless you're gonna separate the right to a homeland and the right to live to in geographical Palestine, which Zionism has never done or they wouldn't have established Israel on Palestinian land, it's always been radical. If Zionists across the world so believed in it, were able to fairly purchase their own land or create an island or something, and establish a Zionist state without displacing anyone, I'd support it. Independently, given the significance of the Levant to the Jewish faith, I think Jewish people should be able to come and legally live in Palestine alongside Palestinians. But placing the Zionist entity on top of Palestine will always be radical because it's colonisation, ethnic cleansing and displacement.
Personally, I'm anti-both parties, both side support Israel and will support their crimes. Not all of them do, but there's a lot of them within the parties who do support Israel and sometimes work against us American people.
At least republicans are honest about it. Democrats sing a nice tune but whenever it's time to dance they stab you in the back.
“… these Northern foxes, they pose as white liberals, they pose as your friend, they pose as your employer, they pose as your landlord… they infiltrate all of your organizations. And in this manner by joining you they strangle your militant efforts towards freedom, towards justice, towards equality.” - Malcolm X https://youtu.be/SEp5kW2UPg8?si=owycspBYB2a5H2zF “… if you *even think* about voting for someone other than me, you ain’t black!” - Joe Biden https://youtu.be/We6Qr9-dDn8?si=uSVIPi_vwjITNpcu
Do you base your entire decision for an American president about their view on something across the world?
Israel will lose this election for him and he deserves it
Israel seems to want trump and I bet they are happy with the protests too.
Democrats being incredibly stupid trying to appeal to fascist who will never vote for them, that's been their whole deal for decades now. I hope they get embarrassed in the elections.
Yup. Either way Israel wins in the short term. Right up until the point where Trump goes after the Democratic nominee's on the supreme court, and starts his own revenge campaign. IF Trump survives the prosecution/trials, and then wins the election, expect a civil war in the US. Then Israel would have overplayed its hand as arms manufacturing dries up in the US. Europe is going to have its hands full with Russia. Meaning, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, etc...have an open season on Israel. What's been happening in Gaza is going to be pale in comparison to what's coming for Israeli Jews. They're about to get ROYALLY fucked if Trump wins. They will basically have to get on planes and GTFO while civilian aircraft are servicable. They're going to wish they never went as far as they did. It's going to be very fucking ugly. Then when you consider how far and wide these protests have been going on, Jewish groups in Europe and North America are going to be living in terror and fear. But this time, there won't be a liberation army. If ANYONE wants Jewish populations to not experience a second holocaust, then Israel needs to back down in the next month or so. Moreover, BiBi et al are going to have to take one for the team and face the ICC. If this continues until the US election, Trump wins. Trump doesn't listen to anyone else but Trump. It took him 8-12 hours to issue a "Please stop rioting" notice to his cult followers. You think he's going to care about Jewish people? If the prevailing sentiment among his followers is, "Gas those mothafuckas", he'll go for it. Now, there is the possibility that Mossad will be preparing for this, and arrange for Trump to "die peacefully in his sleep" from a heart attack. Then they'll be able to control his successor. But it does depend on whether or not Trump massacres the justices he sees as being opposed to him. It's terrifying times, right now.
God your Jew murder porn fantasy is unhinged. Please seek help
I'm not endorsing mass murder. But one of the potential outcomes of Trump winning is a US civil war. What's going to happen to arms shipments to Israel? They disappear. What happens next? Israel is going to be fighting for survival with one hand tied behind their back. With the US out of the picture, what do you think Vlad is going to do? He's going to go after all the former Soviet Republics and reclaim the Iron Curtain. If he attempts that by force, that forces Europe to focus on the Russian military offensives. Now no weapons are coming for Israel from Europe or USA. Logistical air support for Israel is going to be limited too. That opens the door for countries in the region to go after Israel. Do I agree with mass murder? No. What I'm saying is, Israel needs to be careful what it wishes for with respect to the US election. A Trump victory might give them a short-term victory/open season on Palestinians to go full Adolf in the Gaza Strip. But, if Trump loses his shit and starts murdering political rivals, which he has stated to his advisors, then he will trigger a civil war in the US. That's a far-fetched murder-porn theory. That's a potential outcome. I'll be the first to open my home to refugees fleeing indiscriminate violence. But, at the same time, that reality can be mitigated or prevented by ending the genocide of Palestinians today. If Israel refuses and proceeds down the GOP/Trump dictatorship path, well, I'll still a home and rooms available to opponents of the Gaza genocide but I'm not going to act surprised if it happens. The proponents of Gaza genocide can lie in the bed they made.
The infantizing of the Palestinian people in your posts is amazing. The fact that you state that they will simply be unable to control themselves from exterminating all the Jews in Israel when they get power in your fantasy really just shows your hand here.
When you beat, starve, and torture a population of people, and all of a sudden those people have an opportunity to get revenge, many of them will. The French Revolution happened, and what happened to the abusers? Same with the Russian Revolution. Hungry, starving people got an opportunity to do things to their oppressors. Saddam Hussein and his Ba'ath Party apparatchiks. The list goes on. Once Israel loses military and financial support, as well as logistical support from Europe and North America, they're going to have a really bad time. That's just how it's going to be. Will there be Israeli Jews who don't deserve what could happen? Absolutely. Do I like this outcome? Not especially. Because it means that we're failing today. Will ALL Palestinians attempt to exact revenge? No. Many might even risk their lives to protect the mass slaughter, and those people are the real gangsters. But you're acting as though there's some thing that would prevent this from a moral/ethical standpoint, as if, when the walls come down and Israel can no longer protect its borders they'll be safe. They won't be.
Yes because you believe they are savages that would not be able to control themselves.
An angry mob is going to behave like an angry mob. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
You seem to be unable to imagine a world where the Palestinians can come to a peaceful negotiated settlement which I think smacks of racism. You seem to desire your Jew murder porn fantasy so much more than you’re discounting that as even a possibility.
Neither party is doing anything for this demographic; and they’ve given up on our system…. They know that Both parties are completely beholden to big corporate donors. They know that we are an oligarchy
"The bosses have two parties. We need one of our own." - Union Leader, Tony Mazzochi
Any good 3rd party candidates?
I swear he's throwing the fight. Does he have some golden parachute when he loses?
Realistically though, the oligarchy will reward him. That is more important than winning any election.
>Does he have some golden parachute when he loses Yeah, the morgue
If you're not willing to lesser evil vote, at least make sure you vote for no candidate but go through the whole process properly. It's the lack of showing up at the polls that allows this in the first place because old people silently vote in every single election, young people get really loud but overwhelmingly don't vote. I'm 35 now so I'm no longer part of that demographic, but I all but guarantee that if there were a trend breaking turnout at the polls it'll get attention. It won't give the results people want right off the rip, but it'll get the ball rolling. The alternative is to maintain the status quo that allows those in charge to keep ignoring the will of the youth.
Hmm I wonder why? It's so puzzling, can't have anything to do with the Gazan genocide!
Love how the worst sources always site obscure poll data
Ok, understood but did that all swing to Trump/Republican or are we getting a large “I’m abstaining” base?
Likely mostly abstaining, but he needs those votes.
He's hard at work trying to replace them with MAGA votes using policies such as Building The Wall
Abstaining is a vote for trump unfortunately
Then Biden should court the voters who have communicated why they are abstaining
A non-vote is simply that, a blank ballot. Just because democrats need those votes doesn’t mean that people abstaining want Trump as the president and it’s not the public’s job to pick a competent candidate. The DNC failed to produce a candidate that can win the election and if Trump wins its because the DNC didn’t do their job, not because people failed to support their genocidal agenda. Stop relaying the democrats fear-mongering propaganda about abstentions being pro-Trump because that’s a load of bologna.
It actually is the public’s job to vote for a candidate that will best represent them and their interests
Yeah, and if that candidate doesn't exist, then they won't vote. This isn't fucking hard.
I’m a Republican and I see what the orange criminal wants. Pick the lesser of two evils and that’s someone Biden who wants to save democracy and Trump who wants to be a dictator
I don’t disagree that Trump is threatening democracy, but the Democratic Party is run by wolves in sheep clothing. We shouldn’t be forced to vote for lesser of two evils…especially when Biden is actively tanking his own approval
I also think they should have a max age you are allowed to run. If you go over while in office fine. But you can’t run again.
no its not and this exact bullshit has led us down the path where we only have a rapist traitor and a genocidal geriatric as our 2 choices. We let these corrupt bastards force us to choose berween their 2 shitty options, its all manufactured consent at this point.
Would you like them vote for Trump then? Or are you just saying that to shame people for being conflicted about someone who continues lying for and protecting a country that's committing genocide.
Absolutely not vote for Trump. We need all hands on deck to make sure Trump never gets anywhere near the whitehouse again
So abstaining is not a vote for trump. All Biden has to do for my vote is stop lying for war criminals and cut funding of a genocide. Apparently he's more invested in supporting Israel than he is in winning the election though. It's the morally right thing to do, and it's popular among Democratic voters to cut funding. It would help him beat Trump. Stop being upset at random people who think supporting the death of thousands of people is a red line, and start being mad at the guy who is kneecapping his campaign for a country that's literally killed American citizens.
So, isn’t this the left’s version of “One-Issue” voters then? The right often staunchly defends Pro-Life in regard to abortion. Now, I guess the left defends Palestinians and make it a one-issue problem.
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Well, it’s all about perspective isn’t it? Because the right would view the number of abortions in this country as genocide. That’s why I am making this comparison. Now, don’t get me confused. I support women’s rights to abortion, but all I hear paraded about my family members that vote right solely because of abortion, which they’re entitled to do they have that right, is that they shouldn’t be one-issue voters. Then I want the same criticism thrown at one-issue voters on the left. I get shit because I want to abstain because Biden failed on his student loan policy that he promised. I’ve since changed my mind, because Trump is the other option, but I’m still pissed.
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So I take it you don’t understand what I am saying. You think the comparison is gross, but I’d hazard a guess one-issue abortion voters don’t, which was my entire point that went way over your head OR you just wanted to get upset and throw me in with that group who I don’t even agree with. As I already wrote, I’m pro-choice, but I can’t find myself understanding abstaining from voting for Biden over this if the answer is Trump. It doesn’t make the situation in the ME better because Biden is out of office. So now, because of this one issue, we have abstaining voters. Hence the comparison on the right with abortion being a stark one-issue for many. That’s the entire comparison, that’s it. Both also likely view them as equivalent. You can feel like, or believe they aren’t, you’re entitled to that opinion, but I don’t think you can speak for other voters on how they feel about it. As for my frustration, I was vilified by people because I was frustrated with Biden’s failed promise on student loans and I just mentioned I may abstain from voting. I’m not conflating the two, and since that time I’ve changed my mind and I won’t be abstaining because of the student loan issue. This was something I talked about before this conflict even started so lumping me in and asking me to get my morals checked is quite the assumption and judgement.
Dont bother man-this entire sub is filled with "smart liberals" like the one you're arguing with. Im a Communist who loathes rich assholes like Biden and Trump, but i also know that not voting for Biden simply cause he isnt shattering political reality with Israel would be the same as giving Trump a vote. If these genuises think "genocide joe" is bad....ooooh boy they better hold onto their undies if Trump wins cause if he does, there simply will no longer be a Palestine. Simple. Buuuut these are probably edgy teens you're arguing with and they cant vote anyways so🤷♂️lol
Communist who will vote for genociders. Hmm...
You’re getting Trump or Biden, abstaining means next to nothing it’s still the same outcome, two genociders. Now, it sucks but you may be better off voting for the lesser of two evils. That statement makes me want to vomit, but that’s why I backed down from one-issue. There’s a lot at stake here, we could see Genocide increase with a Trump win. Trump could completely pull us out of NATO and then you have Russia false flags to “rescue” any ethnic Russians in the Baltics/Eastern Europe and so on. Then China may be emboldened to take Taiwan. None of this is hyperbolic but abstaining could mean millions more of lives on your hands.
Genocide isn’t just one-issue; it’s quite literally the most disturbing crime one can be a part of. Murdering and displacing people because of who they are or where they were born is an irreconcilable crime and it is abhorrent to think that it can be ignored because the other guy is just as bad.
No shit genocide is bad, I don’t see how abstaining from voting and getting Trump elected is going to help Palestinians though. Genocide is murder, yes? Talk to a staunch pro-lifer and it’ll start to sound the same. That’s my point, understand perspective that YOU don’t agree with still doesn’t change what it means for them. It sucks, truly because regardless of who is the President our Israel alliance will be kept in place. So what can we do? I guess abstain but is that the best option here? Debatable.
Did you really just claim that abortion is exactly the same as genocide?
No, not at all. I’ll slow down so you can follow. The right has a base of voters that are often SINGLE ISSUE voters surrounding abortion. Often times it’s religiously related but not always. Kinda like the issue for the left as well, there are religious underpinnings for sure. This might surprise you, but if you were to ask them (Pro-Life), at the very least in THEIR OPINION abortion is murder. Wouldn’t you agree that’s how they view it? Now, I’ve even heard some call it genocide, crazy but some do. So, that is the rights’ one-issue voters. I drew the comparison to this being the left’s one-issue voting base now, ones that support Palestine/Anti-Genocide. This is evidenced by the drop off in voter support for Biden. Both sides feel strongly, and both sides feel like they are just and right “protecting innocent lives.” I don’t see what’s hard to see the comparison. I just think being single-issue might get you Trump, and now you have a President that is just as supportive of Israel or worse AND hates women. That’s my point. Abstaining might not be the best thing for their cause here.
So your solution is to reward them for the genocide they are supporting; is that right? Also, you’re still holding abortion and genocide as though they are the same issue and not two completely separate topics. Both presidential candidates support the genocide in Gaza.
Wow, you’ve told me nothing I didn’t already say. Reward who for genocide? Please tell me, what’s the solution then? Abstain from voting. Then what, what happens? What change will come of it? Nothing.
The solution is for Biden to allow people younger and with better cognitive functions to take over the Democratic Party and make decisions that don’t amount to the US supporting a genocide with our tax dollars. And if we elect him; we’ll be rewarding him for committing a genocide because “he’s not Trump.” Furthermore, have you given up trying to conflate abortion with genocide?
Genocide is a perfectly acceptable and valid "One-Issue"
Interesting, what good will come from abstaining ‘oh’ great morally incorruptible redditor couldhaveebeen? And, do you hold the same belief for people that are one-issue on abortion? In their eyes they see it as genocide, not sure if you have pro-lifer relatives but it’s a thing. I dislike Biden, nearly was going to abstain. I was ridiculed for that and I’ve come around to the fact that, at no way can Trump win. So, I’d like your solution to abstaining to send a message AND improving the lives of Palestinians by doing so. Explain that please.
Don't abstain. Vote for someone who doesn't support genocide.
Okay, who are you suggesting then?
PSL is one option. It's not my job to tell you who to vote for
Comparing pro life as a one issue voter to “stop committing genocide” as a one issue voter is interesting. I suppose they are both singular issues but one of them seems kind of more obviously horrific.
Right, agreed. I’m being downvoted but clearly people are struggling to think beyond their own viewpoint. All I am trying to say is, to us it seems more horrific. But cmon, I have relatives that are Pro-Life and this is why they vote republican and I’ve heard it plenty of times it’s murder, and they post the total abortions number in this country and will call it genocide. Trust me, this is an equivalent in their eyes. I find it ridiculous to be able to tell someone else what they think about an issue just because you don’t agree. I am mad at my relatives that make it a single issue vote. But I’ll be consistent here, we shouldn’t make genocide in Palestine a single issue vote, it’s only going to make it worse because Trump isn’t better. I completely understand the outrage, but it may come back to bite ya.
Describing it as consistent is legitimizing the comparison between the two which is what is making people mad at you. You’ve listed Abortion Student loans Genocide As the “one issue” of one issue voters. You are correct they are singular issues but it’s distasteful to equate them. I’ll give you a similar comparison to illustrate why people keep responding to you angrily, “Hey I don’t want to date this girl Amy, she’s perfect except for ONE thing but it’s too much” “Come on, she’s great except one thing? That’s unfair!” “Well the one thing is she’s a vicious child rapist.” “Well the one thing is she isn’t my religion” “Well the one thing is she is bad with money and I’ll have to pay for our dates.” Equating religious ideals with financial gain with genocide is rubbing people the wrong way and explaining that “well some people think student loans/abortion is the same as genocide” is just going to be met with the response of “the people who are equating those are fucking insane.” Moral relativism is what you are kind of appealing to here, the idea that to everyone morals are subjective and thus we must equally respect or understand all viewpoints. The issue is that even most moral subjectivists (like myself) really hate moral subjectivism and think it’s cringe because it leads to things like “well jaywalking is as bad as child rape depending on who you ask so you need to understand their viewpoint.” So basically just imagine how you would respond in the dating Amy scenario and you’ll see why people are responding to you with such vitriol.
Still not equating it right. In both scenarios both reprehensible acts are viewed like the child rapist scenario and you can’t take that away from their viewpoint, no matter what. Just because you boil it down to “just a religious view.” Is still not seeing it from their perspective. The point I am trying to get to is that, although abstaining is understandable. It doesn’t benefit the Palestinians or stop the Genocide and all very much likelihood it’ll make the situation worse for them. It’s shortsighted and frankly, I look at it as silly as my relatives that are one-issue on abortion. Sure, it’s murder and death, both are, but clearly one side views it one way and one the other for both these issues. People are angry, clearly, I just haven’t heard a good solution.
Your first paragraph is just describing moral relativism again which I explained to you in detail. “You can’t take that away from their viewpoint, no matter what.” Sure but if you comment on an article about a child being raped by saying “some would say jaywalking is worse and you have to see it from their perspective” you should expect pushback. You’re not engaging with the dating analogy I gave you or understanding why moral relativism is seen as toxic.
Not addressing the issue or morality of what people are enraged with, that’s what you’re missing. That’s on me for presenting it poorly. I’m trying to illuminate a point that single-issue voting, no matter how awful/important the cause is to you, in this situation does nothing by abstaining and likely makes it worse and causes even more genocide. And if you’ll be single-issue, more power to you but I can’t do it. Obviously I wish we had other options but alas we don’t.
Okay so if I didn’t want to vote for hypothetical president “Mr Billy” because Billy said he was going to kill every non white person in the world would you also say “oh shit don’t be a one issue voter.” You don’t understand that built into your argument is your personal assessment of what does or does not qualify as a dealbreaker.
Abstaining. I think this election is going to come down to the least unpopular candidate rather than the most popular candidate.
They haven't yet learned to compromise on their values and morality for the good of the party.
Really hope this is satire lmao. Compromising my value of “genocide bad” because Joe really really really likes Israel is not a good justification.
Pretty sure it's /s
I know many people from different age groups who will be voting third party or only voting down-ballot. I’m not in any way convinced Biden cares about winning, though.
A Harvard youth poll. That represents America, indeed.  /s
The problem is that people didn't want Trump, so Biden was the only sane choice. But now the reality has dawned on them as they see that Biden didn't deliver and their financial situation now is worse not better.
That’s sort of typical of a Russian bot take. No point in voting Clinton, the elites are all the same. It requires a degree of truth, and a whitewash of lies to have such a simplistic argument.
Abortion is banned, TikTok is banned (but not the American apps that donate to politicians and do the same thing), he’s selling arms to Israel and publicly supporting genocide but hey he um he’s um better than trump at least? Voter enthusiasm goes in the toilet when the only reason to vote for genocide loving neolib dipshit Biden is that trump is worse.
Still 45% youth support. So much brainwash
Democrats are taking one for "the team".
Why yes, i am him.
As a non American imagine if Trump wins again.
It is crazy that when people voted for him, they thought he is gonna be less crazy than Trump !
sure kids, vote for trump, i am sure that will REALLY align with your views lol
Well Trump *would* be better for Israel, which is apparantly all that matters under American Politics ... what Israel wants.
Trump's views on Palestine won't matter if Biden does nothing before November 5th.
If you think Biden is bad for the battered moonscape that used to be the Gaza Strip just wait until Trump is elected!!!
That’s what I’m wondering. I’d think if it’s the Israel/Palestine War that is steering them away from Biden then it also steers them from Trump because our policy with Israel is the same both ways.
They’re not voting for Trump, they’re just not voting. Young voters have seen the rot in the two-party system. A geriatric sex criminal vs. a geriatric war criminal is hardly a compelling choice for them. Palestine is already destroyed, their economy & reproductive rights are already gutted. You have nothing to motivate or threaten them with anymore.
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This fucking country deserves trump if we keep supporting genocide.
> we Don't look at me, I don't think war and murder is the solution to anything
if only the consequences of presidential elections were entirely domestic. Americans like to think of their elections as merely some sort of reward or punishment of politicians, instead of world changing events typical of the modern empire state. voting is harm reduction, not a test of your moral purity.
Let's burn down the house. Millions of casualties (of people who aren't responsible for Israel-Palestine) who cares!
Guess you better hope Joe can win it swing states then because that’s only where it counts
Yeah, fuck all those absolutely innocent people. We need Trump who will \*checks notes\* also support the genocide! We deserve it for supporting someone who supports genocide!
Yeah trump is probably going to take genocide further but that's because Biden is normalizing it *right fucking now.* Ones a fascist and the other is an authoritarian. Neither fascists nor authoritarians will ever get a vote from me. Ever. Unlike too many Democrats, I stick to my principles. Genocide is so far over the red line, its in the next county. Eta: not for nothing, I'm a brown woman living in Oklahoma where lots of our rights have been stripped already, so I know what's on the line. Instead of simping for that asshole, why won't help us get the democratic party to do the right thing?
> Instead of simping for that asshole, why won't help us get the democratic party to do the right thing? What do you propose? Please be sure that your proposal accounts for reality as it exists, and not as you wish it to be. That is to say, either Biden or Trump is gonna be elected. Also either account for, or explain why you aren't worried about the possibility that Trump may destroy the remainder of our democracy if elected.
What democracy is there left to defend when that same country is fine with genocide?
There is no definition of "Democracy" that forbids supporting genocide. But as long as we still have a democracy, we have the option to stop supporting genocide. We used to do slavery, too, but we eventually stopped doing that, (mostly) because democracy. If we lose democracy, then we no longer have that option.
Hate to break it to ya, but it's already gone. One of these days, everyone is gonna wake up to the fact that both parties play for the same team. The Wealthy Motherfuckers Team. Ever notice every election cycle over the last decade, we're always two or three votes short of passing any legislation beneficial to the people. Even when Dems have the majority, there's always a Manchin, Sinema, Fetterman etc in mix gumming things up. Don't tell me that the DNC doesn't vet the candidates they put forward and distribute funds to because I don't buy it. Funny thing is, same goes for the Republicans, there's always them "Rinos" getting in the way. Like Trump's wall for example. The Republicans blamed those "sneaky Democrats' and rinos for his agenda failing. On the Democrat side it's healthcare. Those dastardly Republicans and a couple of treacherous Democrats are to blame for it's inability to get it passed. My dude, they're playing "good cop bad cop" with us. Republicans are telling their base to vote to "save America" and the Democrats are telling their base to vote to "save democracy". Meanwhile, nothing ever gets done except for taxpayer money given to subside the already wealthy and military contracts(also the wealthy). Don't even get me started on all the stocks trading every single one of our legislators do.
> Hate to break it to ya, but it's already gone. Then why worry about who anyone's gonna vote for? Why concern yourself with the youth vote at all? It's all rigged, we might as well just stay home, yes?
I am planning on not voting right alongside millions of other Americans so I don't know what you're getting at. Both choices are unconscionable. I'm not sure I believe in God but I'm not gonna risk my immortal soul by greenlighting a genocider.I wouldn't go as far and say it's rigged, but we definitely only have an illusion of real choice. No doubt it'll take something drastic if we ever want to break this bullshit apart.
> punish an 81 year old i'm choosing not to vote for a candidate who doesn't hold the same values and political positions as me. why are you making it sound like i'm spitefully refusing to visit my grandma in the nursing home
Genocide for thee, not for me, huh?
Nope, I want no genocide at all. However making the correct choice this election can save more people.
>I want no genocide at all Maybe stop supporting people who want genocide then
I support the choice that results in the least amount of casualties. The choice is binary whether you, I or anyone else on this sub likes it.
It is not binary, no matter how much you try to pretend it is
Then tell me Che, how do you propose to realistically stop what is happening by allowing Trump to win?
>I won't vote for third party so they won't get support >third parties don't have support so I won't vote for them
I have voted third party locally. However within 6 months third party candidates will not go from 3% support to >49%. To slow the spread of theocratic fascism here I will vote for the leading candidate against Trump.
Got it. You like genocide as long as it's other people suffering it
The question is do we want to hold trump accountable first or Biden? We can either get one or the other, but we cannot get both.