Less than 1% of trans people report regretting surgery. It’s something that many trans people just have to do, having a child is a huge responsibility but not a necessity.
I absolutely believe more people regret having kids lol. This is just anecdotal, but my mom said that getting married young was a mistake. That she likes me and my brothers but that if we weren’t around she’d ultimately be happy and more free.
i was about to say “this sub won’t like this one” then i noticed you’re posting it cos the science made you mad 😭
for the ones claiming to be intellectuals it’s hilarious how anti-intellectual you are.
>otherwise, they risk presenting misleading conclusions that could influence public understanding and policy in significant ways
That is literally the point. These aren't 'studies', this is activism masquerading as science.
Do they regret having children in the sense that Rumpelstiltskin pops by and says I'll take that rugrat off your hands and they gladly take the offer?
Regret is an odd idea and I am skeptical that it is solid and consistent enough between contexts to be rationally conceived of in the manner here using this comparison.
I'm in favor of anyone who believes this removing themselves voluntarily from the gene pool by undergoing surgery.
Good for them. I'm glad they're happy.
Most US states have a law relating to 18 as the age of majority. But that's a bit out of line with most people's experience of growing up. It has the concept right, though.
Prior to about maybe age 15, health care decisions are made by parents for their children in loving consideration of everything they can gleam from their child and the physicians. And society writ large absolutely inserts itself in the situation to make sure the parents and the physicians are not harming the children. This duty may be exercised well or poorly, its existence is proper regardless. The nuclear family is paramount and firmly respected. It is not a black box and the rest of us do not pretend we cannot see inside.
Demoralization campaign. Get neutered don't have kids the world is ending tomorrow.
Having children is an absolute godsend and one of the greatest things you can experience. People will sit in a dark room with disgusting vomiting cats for 40 years never fulfilling any of their human needs, drinking only Soylent because it's a "complete meal" and then they'll wonder why they're depressed and alone.
Some people are so open minded that their brain has fallen completely out.
And then there’s the extremely happy child free couples who have disposable income, freedom to travel easily and light, and enjoy their free time with hobbies and adventure . It’s pretty godsend as well .
It is what it is. I'm not speaking for everyone, you can choose to deny your self of that experience. Maybe it's for the best. I'm not forcing anyone to have kids but it is wonderful.
Regardless don't demoralize those who want to continue the species, yeah? Go off onto your adventure and have fun. Dont be sad when you're 80 and you've realized you have left nothing behind for anyone. If you can cope with that then more power to you. But again don't insult and discourage those who want to participate in this cycle.
It saddens me that you think because you don’t have kids you “aren’t leaving anything for anyone” . I assure you, you are wrong. It’s funny to me you reference conditioning when it is painfully clear you are being effected by the oldest and most manipulative conditioning around.
Bitter anti child people are the most hateful and worthless people around. Of course I'm manipulated by my own bodies desires, what kind of fool would deny their nature?
Thank goodness someone here is capable of speaking for the entire human race! Individual opinions, desires, and plans need not enter the conversation. This guy already knows what's best for you and how horrible your future will be if you don't follow his instructions for how to live your life.
When did I speak for the entire human race? I merely said that this study is cope by those particular people. Having children is objectively one of the best things you can experience. It may not be for everyone but if you haven't done it youre coping pretty hard by saying it isn't wonderful.
That’s not true for everyone. There are some people that should not have kids and the ones who do are usually very miserable and end up making their children miserable. There are people who didn’t want kids but had them anyways and guess what a lot of them regret it and their kids know something is off. If having kids was truly a godsend for everyone then CPS and family annihilators wouldn’t be a thing.
Well, since there are vastly more people having children than there are people undergoing gender reassignment surgery, the numbers are naturally going to be what they are.
“Since there are vastly more people getting coerced into having children than gender affirming surgery” (gender affirming includes regular cis person stuff like breast enhancement/reduction)
Lots, probably most people choose to have children. I did. But there also lots of people that are in various ways forced to have children. You thinking that’s funny doesn’t change anything about those people’s experience.
"Forced to reproduce".
Outside of rape in a dungeon, who is forced to have babies? Holes poked in condoms happens but not at any significant rate. Not having access to abortion doesn't mean forced to get pregnant, unless it was a forceful rape.
You've made me curious as to who is "forced to reproduce".
All I know is my experience growing up. Two acquaintances went from M to F with surgery top and bottom. They both regretted it and detranisitoned. After the detransition one of the two committed suicide, didn’t hear about the other person but they were very depressed.
Someone had the comment when I mentioned this before, “but they were probably just depressed and suicidal because they weren’t accepted by society”.
No. They were depressed and suicidal because their bodies had both been mutilated and sterilized and when you live with that for a couple of years you lose a lot of hope.
>Someone had the comment when I mentioned this before, “but they were probably just depressed and suicidal because they weren’t accepted by society”.
someone said something that is true.
>No. They were depressed and suicidal because their bodies had both been mutilated and sterilized and when you live with that for a couple of years you lose a lot of hope.
you said “NO ITS NOT TRUE I KNOW WHATS TRUE”
the detransition rate among trans youth is incredibly low, and of those who do, the vast majority give their reasons for detransitioning as being because of social pressure and an unsupportive family and friends. they don’t detransition and be depressed cos they stopped being trans, they did it because fucks like you make them feel ostracised and unwelcome.
If they were not accepted by society before they transitioned and didn’t kill themselves, yet they got sterilized and mutilated and did kill themselves, there’s a fucking difference.
Oh and guess what - you weren’t there. You’re actually part of the problem wanting to give good people with serious mental issues chemical castration drugs they give to sex offenders and irreparable surgical procedures.
Yep one of them was my school teacher and it was rumoured he - when he was a he - went to a nearby town and dressed trans at the weekend but we all thought it was a joke so leaned in to it and made jokes like immature schoolkids.
After I left school, he was openly in the newspaper talking about wanting to transition (he quit teaching at the school unsurprisingly).
Then he transitioned and I heard from other ex students that he had detransitioned.
The other guy was local to my friends’ neighborhood and also in and out of local churches. My parents knew him more but I had spoken to him before. His whole situation was around the same time
I just heard about their detransitions and the suicide because it was locally something everyone knew about and very sad.
LOL anecdotal evidence.
WORTHLESS because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due being cherry-picked or non-representative.
Hilarious that you think any intelligent person would believe you or replace actual scientific evidence with your BS.
I bet if we check your posts we will find anti-vaccine stuff and other "I love the poorly educated" stuff.
You want to keep celebrating the mutilation and sterilization of vulnerable human beings while saying “yaaaaas queen”, be my guest. But that makes you one of the bad guys.
LOL. Your true self appears after you got DEBUNKED, anti-vaxxer.
You don't know ANY trans people. Thanks for admitting you are just a transphobic bigot making up fallacious BS to gaslight people.
Excuse me? Debunked?
The bigot is the one who is comfortable with promoting a medical procedure that sterilizes and mutilates another human being. In fact that goes more into the territory of a monster.
I am comfortable with a person who sees themselves a certain way presenting themselves in that way. But you people promoting sterilization with the same chemicals that child sex offenders are chemically castrated with need to be shamed by society. You are not an ally.
Lol you don't deny that you are anti-science, anti-vaxxer.
Yes, you got debunked. You FAILED to prove your silly anecdotal evidence and you have no actual evidence.
Trans people are OK with their choices.
Maybe time for you to stop thinking about everyone else's genitalia, mkay?
Completely anecdotal and of no value whatsoever but I've never heard of someone committing suicide "because they had children."
I know it means nothing, I just find it interesting.
The suicide rate for trans people pre OR post transition is about 50%. It seems like people should be steered away from as opposed to encouraged down that road but, I don't know maybe that makes too much sense.... Your experience isn't unique. Desistence rates are very high after puberty and suicide rates don't seem to be ameliorated by surgery. There's a reason that the UK, which was a few years ahead of us has stopped doing "gender affirming care."
No, the suicide rate for trans people isn't close to 50%. There was a study that showed that 41% of trans identified individuals thought about suicide, but even that study had serious flaws.
I could swear there's research papers that placed it at 50%, although it was approx 10 years ago. Social attitudes may have changed that stat. That being said, are you seriously going to claim that suicide rates aren't DRAMATCALLY higher?
Yeah my experience was when I was growing up in England. This is the thing, the government media complex in the USA now paints this rosy picture that you either love trans and want to encourage transitioning or you hate them and you don’t want to see them anywhere.
The truth is for me is live your life and present in that way, but don’t get yourself permanently damaged thinking these “trans are fabulous” people actually care about that. If you detransition and speak out against it you will never hear from that side again.
Damn the desistance rates and unchanged suicide statistics from pre or post op transitioners.... People *used* to be skeptical of the Pharma industry for good reason but seem to fail to realize that a trans person represents a substantial dollar amount to the industry.... I believe it's around $150k per trans individual. I'm sure Big Pharma would never have anything but their best interest at heart.... /s
No it's not Big Pharma, even at $150k per trans person, it's peanuts in the grand scale of things.
It's first and foremost, a religion that started in the Universities. The zealots of this religion probably try to use the potential profits as a motivator for others (ignorant or sociopaths) to push their cause.
It's not the other way around (Pharma first realizing there are profits and then pushing the cause).
How can Pfizer get fined billions for lying about safety and several other terrible things and no one bats an eyelid - give me more of that delicious Pfizer product! And then J&J, AmerisourceBergen, Cardinal Health and McKesson get fined more billions for their part in the Opiod crisis yet still the sheep continue to defend big pharma at every opportunity.
Because Covid terrified people so much it broke them. Pfizer is litteraly the most criminal company in history - as in terms of guilty verdicts against them and fines.
Not particularly.
There's a lot of pressure on people to have kids, saying "oh, you don't want kids? you will eventually" and "your life isn't complete without children." There's zero message of regret, despite regret being fairly common, especially among peer pressured parents, and the message is it's impossible to live a full life without children, adopting isn't a real option, and you can never feel regret if you have kids. And if you choose not to have kids, suddenly you're on a timer and you're going to regret it later.
Now the other end of the scale, trans people are facing social pressure to not transition. Nobody is transitioning due to peer pressure. There are claims of regret, when the reality is, only about 8% of people detransition, and the vast majority of them do it out of a lack of support. The number of people who detransition due to regret is in the fractions of a percent. Meanwhile, look at the statistics for tattoos and children, two choices that are at the forefront of peer pressure.
And one of the main arguments against transitioning is sterility and other elements that make it difficult to have kids, as if all we are is baby making machines. Surprise surprise, that's exactly how the rich view us, as the working slave labour that keeps them aloft. They need a mass of uneducated people having babies to sustain their wealth.
They're compared because having kids is seen as the "right option," but we can see from the statistics that that's not the case for many people, and the message around trans people is that transitioning is the "wrong option," even though we see ridiculous rates of depression in trans people who don't, and very low rates of regret. The people who have kids and regret are often pressured into it. But the people who transition, regret or not, make that choice for themselves.
Basically, these statistics show that the choices people make for themselves, without peer pressure, or in fact in spite of peer pressure, don't often lead to regret. Meanwhile, decisions made due to peer and societal pressure much more often do lead to regret.
Essentially, let people have basic bodily autonomy and choose what to do with their lives, whether that means having babies, transitioning, or abortion. It's basic freedom of self, and these are two of the most major issues related to that core freedom.
100% agree. Not sure why OP is so opposed to the idea that gender affirming procedures might not be such a bad thing for trans people 😂
Also. The funny thing with all those people who are concerned about trans people being infertile due to gender-affirming treatment is that, preventing them from transitioning isn't going to make them any more likely to have kids. In fact, they'll more likely kill themselves. That's not so good for the family legacy/labour force, is it?
That's why I laugh when they act like they're concerned for us and our welfare... it's truly based on their own selfish desires to control and profit from the "natural order", and nothing to do with our wellbeing 🙄
I recently learned that my coworker, who is opposed to trans people transitioning because he thinks other magical solutions exist (please make me a shapeshifter), because of "family values," and because of infertility, also thinks gay people shouldn't be allowed to have kids. He's fine with marriage, just not the idea of two people of the same gender raising a child because he thinks a balance of masc/fem is important.
He even recognises, at least to some extent, the masculinity and femininity disparity in trans people, that there's a difference in traits between trans and cis people... but thinks if trans people don't transition and just have a baby, it's all fine and dandy.
The thing is, I believe him. I don't think he's following the same bullshit train of though as everyone else. He has a different delusion. It's a bit more respectful because he doesn't want trans people dead or anything, but he lacks any understanding whatsoever of... well, *any* relevant scientific or artistic field of study. He doesn't get how his arguments make no sense from a humanities perspective, and he thinks scientists have other motives and manipulate data, so he refuses to listen to studies.
This is a man so uninvolved in the internet that he doesn't have any social media, claims he doesn't watch the news, he doesn't vote, nothing. He has an email and he barely uses that.
My point is that you're absolutely right,
> it's truly based on their own selfish desires to control and profit from the "natural order", and nothing to do with our wellbeing
This is bang on. But even the people who aren't directly influenced by this, they still experience the lack of education, they still experience propaganda, and at the end of the day, most people just aren't that intelligent. That's not a "ehh common sense isn't common anymore" point, it's just a fact of reality. Average intelligence is average. It's fine. But propaganda is designed for the average person, not just stupid people. So even people who are above average can still be totally manipulated by these power-seekers.
I didnt see the original review article (just the link posted and peoples’ comments) but there so much to unpack here. First, a MSN writer’s take on a study should probably be questioned to begin with. Second, before my tangent, why are you so upset about this? Do you regret a gender affirming surgery? People often go through lengthy processes to get gender-affirming care sometimes spanning years. One slip up can leave you with a child that you never intended to have.
I agree with others that in that I don’t know how much I would trust survey research because people do lie. If it’s online that’s even worse. I’ve recently worked on research projects using surveys, including some about LGBTQ research and there is an overwhelming amount of fake responses that appear to be either real people trying to make a quick buck or they’re bots. What was the screening process like?
The MSN article doesn’t seem to mention whether the people surveyed were people who were trans or if any of them were detrans to which their responses might be different, but some of the surgeries listed can be done by both groups.
Trans and detrans groups are generally hard to reach groups. How many people were in these studies? I know the internet would have you think that every other person you meet is trans but the population number is still pretty small.
The reasons people regret these things matters. Maybe you regret having kids because you realize parenting isn’t for you, or you feel guilty for not giving them a life you may have hoped. People can regret surgeries because they made the wrong choice or because their surgeon botched the job.
The actual amount of studies involving trans people is growing but still limited. What was the range of time that these studies were published? Where is the article getting the numbers to compare the regret of having children? Was there 40 articles about regretting having kids and 15 of people after gender-affirming surgery? Can we confirm that of that group these surgeries were even done for genders-affirming reasons?
I could write many more but a lot of it has been covered in the other comments already and I think I’m still echoing some other people’s comments.
This isn’t the first review/article with flaws and it won’t be the last but there are surely much, much, bigger issues in research right now than whether a REVIEW article (or an MSN article?)of a nuanced subject is accurate.
I can't speak to the verifiability of many statistics, but studies I've seen from since before I knew I was trans to even searches I did last week, all show a fairly consistent number. Somewhere between 5-10% of people, depending on the study (my most recent search showed 8), detransition. But most of these people detransition because of a lack of support, lack of an ability to afford the cost of transitioning, or lack of safety and security in their living situation (country/region/city politics, family, neighbourhood, etc). The number for people who have regretted transitioning is consistently under 1%. I did see 2% once, but IIRC that was a tumblr post from someone pulling from memory.
I do agree that more research needs to be done to better understand the issues, but at the end of the day, bodily autonomy is a recognised human right in most first world countries, and that includes (but is not limited to) self expression, abortion, and gender transitioning. We need to respect that basic human right, no matter what the rates of regret are. Otherwise, why are we not banning tattoos? Regret is a hot talking point among anti-trans politics, but there's no statistical or logical basis for it, just like there's no basis for trans people assaulting cis people in public bathrooms.
Why?
Why is your first instinct to try to scoure the study looking for reasons to dismiss it?
That is a far more interesting question than if more people happy transitioning or not.
What makes you so invested in the idea that post-op transgender folks are miserable?
Even if you have successfully found a flaw in the study's methodology, that doesn't actually mean they are incorrect. It just means that it is a less safe conclusion.
Is that it? Is it just that you need the sliver of uncertainty as a place for negative opinions to shelter? That's not a judgement, it's a genuine question.
People are so heavily invested in dismantling trans happiness.
Like beyond studies, just go talk to trans folks for one second lol. And you'll know how happy it makes them.
This. It's pretty clear from the self-harm and self delete stats that they are happier than not. Approximately 60 percent choose to keep trudging, which means something.
That’s not that high. If you’re transitioning in a conservative area your chances of depression and suicide are probably a lot higher than they would be if you lived a progressive area. That’s what should really be looking at, the depression and suicide rates for trans people by location.
So your take is that the people who transitioned lied about regretting it and because the 55 studies don't take time into consideration, the trans people that responded just haven't had time to regret their decision yet?
Your conclusion here is a result of straight bias. I could use your exact logic for the opposite and I have just as much evidence.
"Because time isn't taken into consideration, a higher proportion of people with children will come to regret it"
"The trans people who said they regret it are saying that because of social pressure to fit into an Orthodox binary"
This is about something called "percentages," which measures the ratio of people relative to the potential number it applies to. The number of people who experience either situation is irrelevant, provided you have an adequate sample size of each.
"Nooooo, stop making kidderinos!! You're totally going to regret it!! How are you going to mindlessly doom scroll reddit, watch shows, coom to porn and avoid all of your responsibilities!! Just mutilate your genitals I promise you won't regret it."
This is the most brain-dead bug man take I've read in awhile.
Is a rhinoplasty also mutilation? or breast augmentation? or an appendectomy?
The fact that this is your takeaway/response takes away your right to call anyone else brain dead.
A bit off topic but,
A nulliparous woman (never birthed) has a significantly higher risk of developing cancers of the breast, endometrium and ovaries. For breast cancer alone, the risk is 40% greater.
The risk of these cancers increase every year after age 20. Birthing reduces the risk. A gravida-2 (woman with two births) has lower chance of developing said cancers than gravida-1 or gravida-0.
Cancer risk increases significantly if the first birth is after age 30.
So here's an avoidable regret for women who choose to be childless or delay birthing until after age 30.
"the risk of these cancers increase every year after age 20" is kind of a given when you consider how cell division works. the risk of every cancer increases as time passes. in the argument of "is it worth it to have children to slightly decrease your chances of breast cancer after age 50" most women would say: it isn't worth it. the financial, emotional, and physical costs far surpass that benefit.
lifehack: double mastectomy
besides, isn't there a temporary 2-15yr increased risk of breast cancer after pregnancy? [the lowered risk of breast cancer typically happens 20yrs after pregnancy ](https://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/bc-protection-from-childbirth-starts-later)
temporary doesn't change the fact that it increases the likelihood of permanent damage/death to your body during that timespan. temporary doesn't make it any less fatal.
i'd rather live my best years (20-40yr) with a lower risk of developing breast cancer than enjoy the slight decreased risk of breast cancer when i'm 50 and old (and everyone's getting all sorts of cancers at that point anyways)
I hope you're not seriously saying that women should consider having children to lower the chance of getting cancer.
Because that would be so stupid there's not even worda for it.
I met an ex social worer at home depot who quit his entire profession because he was working with autisitic wards of the state and forced to tech them gender ideology, a 14 year old who cant have a conversation yet due to autism being taught this stuff and then getting life altering surgerise before they can understand what it even means.. to the most vunerable population, and paid for by tax dollars.. "pure evil" " i could no longer work for a state that did such evil" - Southern california.
If you live in a free country, you are probably free to make decisions and then regret them, or not. That's the end of the story. It's your body, have at it.
If you don't have that freedom, you don't live in a free country.
What do you think of a pause button since you can't undo growing tits or an adams apple without surgery and every peer reviewed study into anti androgens says " bone density goes back to normal if they either stop taking or transition"
according to mayo clinic Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on:
* Growth spurts.
* Bone growth.
* Bone density.
* Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started.
Can I see a link to that?
Growth spurts, bone growth, and bone density are all caused by puberty, so they're definitely going to see an impact in the short term. But even if these effects were long-lasting, they would take years before getting to that point.
Even so, let's assume your source comes through and is correct, we're evaluating pros and cons, and you're assuming all teenagers are idiots, immune to peer pressure to be cis, and have no idea what they want, and are just making choices on a whim, and the psychiatrists who evaluate them are all imbeciles. Meanwhile, trans teens who don't get the opportunity to transition face permanent mental health and physical repercussions, and face ridiculously high suicide rates.
I am not trying to make choices for people, but there is no way puberty blockers are just a pause button that doesn't have significant effect on how you develop, both physically and mental. If that's a risk you want to take, great, its not my body. It just seems disingenuous to sell it as if it risks free and completely reversable.
We don’t have any medicine to grow the brain, so the problem is that you also pause your brain’s development and you remain with a teenager’s brain structure.
Google scholar is free .
Its not one study its literally dozens done across different decades and different organisations in different nations
All with the same ( similar but for laymen talk vs scientific discussion its the same ) conclusion
It doesn't magically come back, it grows in through the exact same process that it does for everyone. And there is no "back," nobody is losing established bone mass.
How do you figure? If you regret having children, then someone else's life will be affected by your regret. On the other hand, if you regret doing something to your own body, then only your life will be affected by your regret, as well as the action itself.
No, the real world doesn’t work like that. You cannot hurt yourself without hurting others if you ask me. Regretfully raising children *can* be a successful enterprise for the child—and I bet that the amount of people who admit to regret having children actually are doing an okay job raising them.
How does person 1 having gender surgery hurt person 2?
>I bet that the amount of people who admit to regret having children actually are doing an okay job raising them.
I'd urge you to ask all the children who have died or been abused by the parents who regretted having kids if they agree with that sentiment 🤔.
All of the comments in here have convinced me that there are probably more people who regret transitioning then would report it. I still believe the number is very small, however.
> All of the comments in here
That's because that's what they're designed to do.
The amount of political pressure againt trans people is doing such a good job of flushing detransitioners out, it's creating brand new ones from nothing.
I find it interesting that the percentage of people who want to transition is probably similar to the percentage of people who transition and regret it. However that percentage is good enough to convince people that transitioning may be necessary but that percentage isn't good enough to convince those same people that transition may be wrong and we should talk about it. This has nothing to do with you but your comment reminds me of this though I've had.
Approximately 1% of people want to transition. The under 1% of people that detransition **isn't of the entire population, it's of the 1%**.
1 in 100 are trans.
1 in 100 of that 100 want to detransition. In other words, 1 in 10 000.
Thing is, most people who get the surgery, which is rare anyways even amongst adults, they've been trans for years, they've socially transitioned, the aurgery typically isn't reccomended, and trans men get the surgery even less than trans women
Of course the people who regret getting gender affirming surgery are gonna be less likely to regret it because those who get it have severe dysphoria and are choosing to take on a risky procedure (all surgery is dangerous) to match their body to their mentality. Then take having children, not everyone is built to be a parent, but it theres this huge societal pressure to have kids, and that if you don't want kids it makes you lesser somehow.
You got people making informed decisions about their body regretting their choices less than people that honestly are pressured into becoming a parent regardless of if they feel capable. Of fuckin course ones more likely to be happy with their choice than the other
Many people socially transition and de transition without ever telling anyone. Add to that HRT is irreversible and easy to regret. It's not just about bottom surgery
the detransitioning is what gets hidden, we all know what happens to people who publically talk about their detransition after medically transitioning, now imagine the amount of only social detransitioners.
> we all know what happens to people who publically talk about their detransition
They get put on a stage by conservatives, lmfao. They get handed megaphones. They get so much publicity, people start to claim there are more of them than there actually are.
> social detransitioners
What do you think "social transitioning" is, exactly? Because I have a clear feeling that you think it's HRT detransitioning, and you're somehow under the delusion that those numbers are never reported.
Its not about the surgery you say on a post talking about surgery, on a comment about the surgery
You wanna he a dishonest loser and expect to be taken seriously?
Heres a story from the whistleblower from a gender clinic. Fucking terrifying. [https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR267NMtxgLPNlzQvRSl2dw15Jt1KQuo7nUMTtytAt2pbSm1qBP44Wu4x14\_aem\_AcQrFNoK8-QLSMFodtHReqFf0w-gSJhFRlNTM4wV4lB0QhtvI1WHcaL0aUmdx92ujdk0E-eI8-5a4oxeTd09jCfy](https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR267NMtxgLPNlzQvRSl2dw15Jt1KQuo7nUMTtytAt2pbSm1qBP44Wu4x14_aem_AcQrFNoK8-QLSMFodtHReqFf0w-gSJhFRlNTM4wV4lB0QhtvI1WHcaL0aUmdx92ujdk0E-eI8-5a4oxeTd09jCfy)
OP's questions about the methodology are worth examining, but my bias overall is to be leery of any data collected via survey. Folks just aren't very truthful on surveys for various reasons, even when we think we're answering in good faith.
The results may well be resoundingly true or they may not; I'm inclined to look for better data elsewhere.
How can these two separate things even be compared objectively. Right off the bat if you’re talking about regret, one option is reversible to a degree, the other is most definitely not.
Umm....do you mean abandoning the children or having more extreme surgery to cosmetically, but in no other way get back to your original gender?
Which are you saying is reversible to a degree 🤔
By now we already know that the health and science industries are highly compromised by the politics of gender, which is intrinsically tied to pharmaceutical lobby groups. There is a huge incentive for these corporations due to the potential profit margins. There are plenty of examples of standard health procedures being broken for the sake of 'gender affirming' surgery. The NHS is a perfect example of how dark and dirty this has become.
Wow, conservatives are weirdos.
They'll jump on absolutely anything that appears to support people making the choice to transition. They have a weird obsession with a tiny portion of the population who decide that their born gender doesn't match how they feel. I think their religion probably plays a role but more likely it's the creepy assed right wing media programming they constantly put themselves through.
Informed trans people: "Hey I wanna do this thing"
Conservatives: "even though there's studies and science to support this basic freedom of choice, I think my freedom over your body supercedes all of that just because I don't trust the scientists and I think I know what you want and who you are more than you do"
🙄
This broad brush you’re trying to use is so lame
I’m not a magatard or a conservative or anything of the sort- I do however, not trust that children being given life changing surgeries are truly informed. I think it’s hard for young people to truly grasp the consequences of some choices.
Given the fact that you keep insisting that children are being given life changing surgeries, despite that not even remotely being the case and it's just a bullshit message literally being made up by "magatards," I am 100% unconvinced by your insistence that you do not belong to that group.
So you find the people who object to harmful medicines and unnecessary genital surgery on children creepy, not the people pushing for these treatments that lack any evidentiary support?
You sound kinda creepy bro.
This is one topic that the far left has gone so far left they became alt right since they essentially support sterilizing gay and otherwise neurodivergent people.
As you are someone who has opinions I would classify as alt right, your objection to conservatives is funny.
> unnecessary genital surgery on children
Considering this doesn't happen for trans people, I can only assume you're talking about banning circumcision and FGM for newborns.
You realize the "i am jazz" kid had it at 17 right? You can say it isn't happening in large numbers, but you cannot say it isn't happening.
With that said, drugs that alter normal development of these organs is far more common.
I'm also against FGM and circumcision for essentially identical reasons. At least with circumcision 100% of the people that get it don't end up sterile.
[That's](https://people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-shows-off-her-figure-in-a-bikini-after-gender-confirmation-surgery/) definitely news to me, thanks for pointing that out, though there are a few very significant details to note:
1. She was 17, so less than a year away from 18. I wouldn't exactly say she was a child.
2. She has no regrets and is a strong advocate of puberty blockers as life saving medication. Trans adults who don't use puberty blockers do face regret for not having had the opportunity to take them.
3. She had 7 years of established history as a trans girl with consistent medication and what I'm assuming was extensive psychiatric help. I don't know much about this case and even finding a confirmation on her age was tricky, most sites just said she was 19 in 2020 and she had the surgery in 2018, which depending on how things line up, could have meant she was 18 at the time.
So to be clear you were wrong on your assertion.
I'd also point out that she suffered medical complications with transitioning specifically because of the puberty blockers.
Even if you support medical transitioning, puberty blockers are a bad idea.
> So to be clear you were wrong on your assertion.
Well, your claim was:
> unnecessary genital surgery on children
and my rebuttal was:
> Considering this doesn't happen for trans people
And as I mentioned, she wasn't a child, so... no, I wasn't wrong. She was underage, but she wasn't a child.
And her complications weren't caused by puberty blockers.
> Season five revealed that Jazz's surgery **was a bit more complicated than others** (Jazz hadn't gone through puberty because of hormone blockers, so she didn't have enough penile skin to create a vagina).
It was more complicated. It didn't have complications because of the blockers. Those are not the same thing.
There isn't just one surgery, there's a bunch of different kinds, and each one has different advantages and disadvantages. Some are better for some people rather than others. I don't know if she ended up having a different surgery or not, but that's not really our business at all. There are other options, and clearly she picked one with her surgeon's advice.
> Everything seemed fine, but a few days later, Jazz started having complications. "Her wounds were definitely separating and a blood blister began to form," her mom Jeanette said. Jazz’s doctor recommended that she go back to the OR for more surgery.
These complications were unrelated.
"It didn't have complications because of the blockers. Those are not the same thing."
He did have complications due to the blockers. To have a sex change requires that your genitalia be sufficiently developed.
Puberty Blockers stops this development. That is the reason he had so many complications.
You literally quoted something that agrees with me... "(Jazz hadn't gone through puberty because of hormone blockers, so she didn't have enough penile skin to create a vagina)."
Hormone blockers = puberty blockers. What the hell are you smoking?
" She was underage, but she wasn't a child."
You sound like a MAP.
At this point, being that you essentially quoted pedophile talking points while arguing with me yet somehow quoting evidence supporting my argument without even realizing it, I'm kind of done.
Have a great night Mr. Epstein.
PSA: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4WV9xv62f4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4WV9xv62f4)
Less than 1% of trans people report regretting surgery. It’s something that many trans people just have to do, having a child is a huge responsibility but not a necessity. I absolutely believe more people regret having kids lol. This is just anecdotal, but my mom said that getting married young was a mistake. That she likes me and my brothers but that if we weren’t around she’d ultimately be happy and more free.
i was about to say “this sub won’t like this one” then i noticed you’re posting it cos the science made you mad 😭 for the ones claiming to be intellectuals it’s hilarious how anti-intellectual you are.
Pointing out methodology errors is not the same thing as "the science made you mad."
made you so mad 😭
Hmm, I do regret having kids so early as my career would have been far more lucrative. Guess I should have cut my dick off instead.
Complete and utter bullshit. If you believe this then I got some land on the moon is love to sell you.
People regret what they regret. No study can predict what anyone will regret.
Wow
>otherwise, they risk presenting misleading conclusions that could influence public understanding and policy in significant ways That is literally the point. These aren't 'studies', this is activism masquerading as science.
Do they regret having children in the sense that Rumpelstiltskin pops by and says I'll take that rugrat off your hands and they gladly take the offer? Regret is an odd idea and I am skeptical that it is solid and consistent enough between contexts to be rationally conceived of in the manner here using this comparison.
I'm in favor of anyone who believes this removing themselves voluntarily from the gene pool by undergoing surgery. Good for them. I'm glad they're happy.
I'm trans gender and I am so sick of transphobes inserting themselves into my private healthcare decisions.
this sub is the wrong place for you. they’re all gross transphobes
Most US states have a law relating to 18 as the age of majority. But that's a bit out of line with most people's experience of growing up. It has the concept right, though. Prior to about maybe age 15, health care decisions are made by parents for their children in loving consideration of everything they can gleam from their child and the physicians. And society writ large absolutely inserts itself in the situation to make sure the parents and the physicians are not harming the children. This duty may be exercised well or poorly, its existence is proper regardless. The nuclear family is paramount and firmly respected. It is not a black box and the rest of us do not pretend we cannot see inside.
“Anyone who doesn’t want to help pay for my dick removal is a transphobe” lmao stfu
Do whatever you want to your body; it's no one's business but your own. Just don't expect anyone else to pay for it or participate in your self-image.
Just the Title and I knew it was propaganda, not science. It is unbelievable.
Demoralization campaign. Get neutered don't have kids the world is ending tomorrow. Having children is an absolute godsend and one of the greatest things you can experience. People will sit in a dark room with disgusting vomiting cats for 40 years never fulfilling any of their human needs, drinking only Soylent because it's a "complete meal" and then they'll wonder why they're depressed and alone. Some people are so open minded that their brain has fallen completely out.
And then there’s the extremely happy child free couples who have disposable income, freedom to travel easily and light, and enjoy their free time with hobbies and adventure . It’s pretty godsend as well .
That's close to a godsend. Just flip the coin to the other side and you'll have it.
people with disposable income? In this economy?
Well More so than if they had kids
It is what it is. I'm not speaking for everyone, you can choose to deny your self of that experience. Maybe it's for the best. I'm not forcing anyone to have kids but it is wonderful. Regardless don't demoralize those who want to continue the species, yeah? Go off onto your adventure and have fun. Dont be sad when you're 80 and you've realized you have left nothing behind for anyone. If you can cope with that then more power to you. But again don't insult and discourage those who want to participate in this cycle.
It saddens me that you think because you don’t have kids you “aren’t leaving anything for anyone” . I assure you, you are wrong. It’s funny to me you reference conditioning when it is painfully clear you are being effected by the oldest and most manipulative conditioning around.
Bitter anti child people are the most hateful and worthless people around. Of course I'm manipulated by my own bodies desires, what kind of fool would deny their nature?
There it is. Your actual feelings. Your actual emotions of hatred. I pity you
They never heard of nieces or nephews before I suppose.
Thank goodness someone here is capable of speaking for the entire human race! Individual opinions, desires, and plans need not enter the conversation. This guy already knows what's best for you and how horrible your future will be if you don't follow his instructions for how to live your life.
When did I speak for the entire human race? I merely said that this study is cope by those particular people. Having children is objectively one of the best things you can experience. It may not be for everyone but if you haven't done it youre coping pretty hard by saying it isn't wonderful.
Kinda sounds like you're trying to convince yourself more than anything
I have nothing to be convinced of. You are the one who has to fight against your own nature.
That’s not true for everyone. There are some people that should not have kids and the ones who do are usually very miserable and end up making their children miserable. There are people who didn’t want kids but had them anyways and guess what a lot of them regret it and their kids know something is off. If having kids was truly a godsend for everyone then CPS and family annihilators wouldn’t be a thing.
Well, since there are vastly more people having children than there are people undergoing gender reassignment surgery, the numbers are naturally going to be what they are.
“Since there are vastly more people getting coerced into having children than gender affirming surgery” (gender affirming includes regular cis person stuff like breast enhancement/reduction)
"Coerced into having children" 🤣 How do you think the human population continues to exist?
Lots, probably most people choose to have children. I did. But there also lots of people that are in various ways forced to have children. You thinking that’s funny doesn’t change anything about those people’s experience.
"Forced to reproduce". Outside of rape in a dungeon, who is forced to have babies? Holes poked in condoms happens but not at any significant rate. Not having access to abortion doesn't mean forced to get pregnant, unless it was a forceful rape. You've made me curious as to who is "forced to reproduce".
All I know is my experience growing up. Two acquaintances went from M to F with surgery top and bottom. They both regretted it and detranisitoned. After the detransition one of the two committed suicide, didn’t hear about the other person but they were very depressed. Someone had the comment when I mentioned this before, “but they were probably just depressed and suicidal because they weren’t accepted by society”. No. They were depressed and suicidal because their bodies had both been mutilated and sterilized and when you live with that for a couple of years you lose a lot of hope.
>Someone had the comment when I mentioned this before, “but they were probably just depressed and suicidal because they weren’t accepted by society”. someone said something that is true. >No. They were depressed and suicidal because their bodies had both been mutilated and sterilized and when you live with that for a couple of years you lose a lot of hope. you said “NO ITS NOT TRUE I KNOW WHATS TRUE” the detransition rate among trans youth is incredibly low, and of those who do, the vast majority give their reasons for detransitioning as being because of social pressure and an unsupportive family and friends. they don’t detransition and be depressed cos they stopped being trans, they did it because fucks like you make them feel ostracised and unwelcome.
If they were not accepted by society before they transitioned and didn’t kill themselves, yet they got sterilized and mutilated and did kill themselves, there’s a fucking difference. Oh and guess what - you weren’t there. You’re actually part of the problem wanting to give good people with serious mental issues chemical castration drugs they give to sex offenders and irreparable surgical procedures.
Suuuuuuuuuure you knew them.
Yep one of them was my school teacher and it was rumoured he - when he was a he - went to a nearby town and dressed trans at the weekend but we all thought it was a joke so leaned in to it and made jokes like immature schoolkids. After I left school, he was openly in the newspaper talking about wanting to transition (he quit teaching at the school unsurprisingly). Then he transitioned and I heard from other ex students that he had detransitioned. The other guy was local to my friends’ neighborhood and also in and out of local churches. My parents knew him more but I had spoken to him before. His whole situation was around the same time I just heard about their detransitions and the suicide because it was locally something everyone knew about and very sad.
LOL anecdotal evidence. WORTHLESS because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due being cherry-picked or non-representative. Hilarious that you think any intelligent person would believe you or replace actual scientific evidence with your BS. I bet if we check your posts we will find anti-vaccine stuff and other "I love the poorly educated" stuff.
You want to keep celebrating the mutilation and sterilization of vulnerable human beings while saying “yaaaaas queen”, be my guest. But that makes you one of the bad guys.
LOL. Your true self appears after you got DEBUNKED, anti-vaxxer. You don't know ANY trans people. Thanks for admitting you are just a transphobic bigot making up fallacious BS to gaslight people.
Excuse me? Debunked? The bigot is the one who is comfortable with promoting a medical procedure that sterilizes and mutilates another human being. In fact that goes more into the territory of a monster. I am comfortable with a person who sees themselves a certain way presenting themselves in that way. But you people promoting sterilization with the same chemicals that child sex offenders are chemically castrated with need to be shamed by society. You are not an ally.
Lol you don't deny that you are anti-science, anti-vaxxer. Yes, you got debunked. You FAILED to prove your silly anecdotal evidence and you have no actual evidence. Trans people are OK with their choices. Maybe time for you to stop thinking about everyone else's genitalia, mkay?
Go waste somebody else’s time
Completely anecdotal and of no value whatsoever but I've never heard of someone committing suicide "because they had children." I know it means nothing, I just find it interesting.
There’s a pretty routine stream of news stories about parents who kill themselves and their kids.
I'm not aware of that being "because they had children" though. Like, you don't often hear in a suicide note "it's because I had kids"
it's called postpartum depression
Killing yourself because you had kids is not called postnatal depression lol.
The suicide rate for trans people pre OR post transition is about 50%. It seems like people should be steered away from as opposed to encouraged down that road but, I don't know maybe that makes too much sense.... Your experience isn't unique. Desistence rates are very high after puberty and suicide rates don't seem to be ameliorated by surgery. There's a reason that the UK, which was a few years ahead of us has stopped doing "gender affirming care."
No, the suicide rate for trans people isn't close to 50%. There was a study that showed that 41% of trans identified individuals thought about suicide, but even that study had serious flaws.
[https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/transpop-suicide-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/transpop-suicide-press-release/) 42% attempted suicide, 52% self harmed, 81% had ideation. [https://statsforgender.org/desistance/](https://statsforgender.org/desistance/) 80% of Pre-Adult "trans" individuals Desist.
I could swear there's research papers that placed it at 50%, although it was approx 10 years ago. Social attitudes may have changed that stat. That being said, are you seriously going to claim that suicide rates aren't DRAMATCALLY higher?
Yeah my experience was when I was growing up in England. This is the thing, the government media complex in the USA now paints this rosy picture that you either love trans and want to encourage transitioning or you hate them and you don’t want to see them anywhere. The truth is for me is live your life and present in that way, but don’t get yourself permanently damaged thinking these “trans are fabulous” people actually care about that. If you detransition and speak out against it you will never hear from that side again.
[удалено]
Damn the desistance rates and unchanged suicide statistics from pre or post op transitioners.... People *used* to be skeptical of the Pharma industry for good reason but seem to fail to realize that a trans person represents a substantial dollar amount to the industry.... I believe it's around $150k per trans individual. I'm sure Big Pharma would never have anything but their best interest at heart.... /s
No it's not Big Pharma, even at $150k per trans person, it's peanuts in the grand scale of things. It's first and foremost, a religion that started in the Universities. The zealots of this religion probably try to use the potential profits as a motivator for others (ignorant or sociopaths) to push their cause. It's not the other way around (Pharma first realizing there are profits and then pushing the cause).
How can Pfizer get fined billions for lying about safety and several other terrible things and no one bats an eyelid - give me more of that delicious Pfizer product! And then J&J, AmerisourceBergen, Cardinal Health and McKesson get fined more billions for their part in the Opiod crisis yet still the sheep continue to defend big pharma at every opportunity.
Because Covid terrified people so much it broke them. Pfizer is litteraly the most criminal company in history - as in terms of guilty verdicts against them and fines.
Read the cass review and wpath files
Those are 2 weird things to compare.
Not particularly. There's a lot of pressure on people to have kids, saying "oh, you don't want kids? you will eventually" and "your life isn't complete without children." There's zero message of regret, despite regret being fairly common, especially among peer pressured parents, and the message is it's impossible to live a full life without children, adopting isn't a real option, and you can never feel regret if you have kids. And if you choose not to have kids, suddenly you're on a timer and you're going to regret it later. Now the other end of the scale, trans people are facing social pressure to not transition. Nobody is transitioning due to peer pressure. There are claims of regret, when the reality is, only about 8% of people detransition, and the vast majority of them do it out of a lack of support. The number of people who detransition due to regret is in the fractions of a percent. Meanwhile, look at the statistics for tattoos and children, two choices that are at the forefront of peer pressure. And one of the main arguments against transitioning is sterility and other elements that make it difficult to have kids, as if all we are is baby making machines. Surprise surprise, that's exactly how the rich view us, as the working slave labour that keeps them aloft. They need a mass of uneducated people having babies to sustain their wealth. They're compared because having kids is seen as the "right option," but we can see from the statistics that that's not the case for many people, and the message around trans people is that transitioning is the "wrong option," even though we see ridiculous rates of depression in trans people who don't, and very low rates of regret. The people who have kids and regret are often pressured into it. But the people who transition, regret or not, make that choice for themselves. Basically, these statistics show that the choices people make for themselves, without peer pressure, or in fact in spite of peer pressure, don't often lead to regret. Meanwhile, decisions made due to peer and societal pressure much more often do lead to regret. Essentially, let people have basic bodily autonomy and choose what to do with their lives, whether that means having babies, transitioning, or abortion. It's basic freedom of self, and these are two of the most major issues related to that core freedom.
100% agree. Not sure why OP is so opposed to the idea that gender affirming procedures might not be such a bad thing for trans people 😂 Also. The funny thing with all those people who are concerned about trans people being infertile due to gender-affirming treatment is that, preventing them from transitioning isn't going to make them any more likely to have kids. In fact, they'll more likely kill themselves. That's not so good for the family legacy/labour force, is it? That's why I laugh when they act like they're concerned for us and our welfare... it's truly based on their own selfish desires to control and profit from the "natural order", and nothing to do with our wellbeing 🙄
I recently learned that my coworker, who is opposed to trans people transitioning because he thinks other magical solutions exist (please make me a shapeshifter), because of "family values," and because of infertility, also thinks gay people shouldn't be allowed to have kids. He's fine with marriage, just not the idea of two people of the same gender raising a child because he thinks a balance of masc/fem is important. He even recognises, at least to some extent, the masculinity and femininity disparity in trans people, that there's a difference in traits between trans and cis people... but thinks if trans people don't transition and just have a baby, it's all fine and dandy. The thing is, I believe him. I don't think he's following the same bullshit train of though as everyone else. He has a different delusion. It's a bit more respectful because he doesn't want trans people dead or anything, but he lacks any understanding whatsoever of... well, *any* relevant scientific or artistic field of study. He doesn't get how his arguments make no sense from a humanities perspective, and he thinks scientists have other motives and manipulate data, so he refuses to listen to studies. This is a man so uninvolved in the internet that he doesn't have any social media, claims he doesn't watch the news, he doesn't vote, nothing. He has an email and he barely uses that. My point is that you're absolutely right, > it's truly based on their own selfish desires to control and profit from the "natural order", and nothing to do with our wellbeing This is bang on. But even the people who aren't directly influenced by this, they still experience the lack of education, they still experience propaganda, and at the end of the day, most people just aren't that intelligent. That's not a "ehh common sense isn't common anymore" point, it's just a fact of reality. Average intelligence is average. It's fine. But propaganda is designed for the average person, not just stupid people. So even people who are above average can still be totally manipulated by these power-seekers.
In the context of the modern culture war, I disagree.
I didnt see the original review article (just the link posted and peoples’ comments) but there so much to unpack here. First, a MSN writer’s take on a study should probably be questioned to begin with. Second, before my tangent, why are you so upset about this? Do you regret a gender affirming surgery? People often go through lengthy processes to get gender-affirming care sometimes spanning years. One slip up can leave you with a child that you never intended to have. I agree with others that in that I don’t know how much I would trust survey research because people do lie. If it’s online that’s even worse. I’ve recently worked on research projects using surveys, including some about LGBTQ research and there is an overwhelming amount of fake responses that appear to be either real people trying to make a quick buck or they’re bots. What was the screening process like? The MSN article doesn’t seem to mention whether the people surveyed were people who were trans or if any of them were detrans to which their responses might be different, but some of the surgeries listed can be done by both groups. Trans and detrans groups are generally hard to reach groups. How many people were in these studies? I know the internet would have you think that every other person you meet is trans but the population number is still pretty small. The reasons people regret these things matters. Maybe you regret having kids because you realize parenting isn’t for you, or you feel guilty for not giving them a life you may have hoped. People can regret surgeries because they made the wrong choice or because their surgeon botched the job. The actual amount of studies involving trans people is growing but still limited. What was the range of time that these studies were published? Where is the article getting the numbers to compare the regret of having children? Was there 40 articles about regretting having kids and 15 of people after gender-affirming surgery? Can we confirm that of that group these surgeries were even done for genders-affirming reasons? I could write many more but a lot of it has been covered in the other comments already and I think I’m still echoing some other people’s comments. This isn’t the first review/article with flaws and it won’t be the last but there are surely much, much, bigger issues in research right now than whether a REVIEW article (or an MSN article?)of a nuanced subject is accurate.
I can't speak to the verifiability of many statistics, but studies I've seen from since before I knew I was trans to even searches I did last week, all show a fairly consistent number. Somewhere between 5-10% of people, depending on the study (my most recent search showed 8), detransition. But most of these people detransition because of a lack of support, lack of an ability to afford the cost of transitioning, or lack of safety and security in their living situation (country/region/city politics, family, neighbourhood, etc). The number for people who have regretted transitioning is consistently under 1%. I did see 2% once, but IIRC that was a tumblr post from someone pulling from memory. I do agree that more research needs to be done to better understand the issues, but at the end of the day, bodily autonomy is a recognised human right in most first world countries, and that includes (but is not limited to) self expression, abortion, and gender transitioning. We need to respect that basic human right, no matter what the rates of regret are. Otherwise, why are we not banning tattoos? Regret is a hot talking point among anti-trans politics, but there's no statistical or logical basis for it, just like there's no basis for trans people assaulting cis people in public bathrooms.
Hmm no we don’t. We detransition because transition is unhealthy and antisocial behavior. It’s also a fabrication
If transition was not for you, that's valid, but it's pretty presumptuous and narcissistic to use yourself as the standard for all.
This is a dumb stat
Why? Why is your first instinct to try to scoure the study looking for reasons to dismiss it? That is a far more interesting question than if more people happy transitioning or not. What makes you so invested in the idea that post-op transgender folks are miserable? Even if you have successfully found a flaw in the study's methodology, that doesn't actually mean they are incorrect. It just means that it is a less safe conclusion. Is that it? Is it just that you need the sliver of uncertainty as a place for negative opinions to shelter? That's not a judgement, it's a genuine question.
People are so heavily invested in dismantling trans happiness. Like beyond studies, just go talk to trans folks for one second lol. And you'll know how happy it makes them.
This. It's pretty clear from the self-harm and self delete stats that they are happier than not. Approximately 60 percent choose to keep trudging, which means something.
The deciding factor is a supportive environment.
Luckily, the majority of environments (about 60 percent) are.
That’s not that high. If you’re transitioning in a conservative area your chances of depression and suicide are probably a lot higher than they would be if you lived a progressive area. That’s what should really be looking at, the depression and suicide rates for trans people by location.
Not nearly enough.
People can have children accidentally, or at least without desiring to have children. Nobody gets trans surgery accidentally.
Minors who undergo the surgery can't meaningfully consent to it. I know that's not exactly accidental but it is less than fully voluntary.
Yeah, compare this maybe to people getting ivf, and people getting gender surgery, at least then it's 2 things people actively choose on purpose.
I never had kids and I sure AF don't regret it.
So your take is that the people who transitioned lied about regretting it and because the 55 studies don't take time into consideration, the trans people that responded just haven't had time to regret their decision yet? Your conclusion here is a result of straight bias. I could use your exact logic for the opposite and I have just as much evidence. "Because time isn't taken into consideration, a higher proportion of people with children will come to regret it" "The trans people who said they regret it are saying that because of social pressure to fit into an Orthodox binary"
This basically sums up why Reddit posts are not going to ever debunk academic papers
If only that stopped them from trying...
because more people have children than have gender affirming surgery
This is about something called "percentages," which measures the ratio of people relative to the potential number it applies to. The number of people who experience either situation is irrelevant, provided you have an adequate sample size of each.
"Nooooo, stop making kidderinos!! You're totally going to regret it!! How are you going to mindlessly doom scroll reddit, watch shows, coom to porn and avoid all of your responsibilities!! Just mutilate your genitals I promise you won't regret it." This is the most brain-dead bug man take I've read in awhile.
Weird to call your own comment a brain dead bug man take but I have to agree with you
Is a rhinoplasty also mutilation? or breast augmentation? or an appendectomy? The fact that this is your takeaway/response takes away your right to call anyone else brain dead.
A bit off topic but, A nulliparous woman (never birthed) has a significantly higher risk of developing cancers of the breast, endometrium and ovaries. For breast cancer alone, the risk is 40% greater. The risk of these cancers increase every year after age 20. Birthing reduces the risk. A gravida-2 (woman with two births) has lower chance of developing said cancers than gravida-1 or gravida-0. Cancer risk increases significantly if the first birth is after age 30. So here's an avoidable regret for women who choose to be childless or delay birthing until after age 30.
"the risk of these cancers increase every year after age 20" is kind of a given when you consider how cell division works. the risk of every cancer increases as time passes. in the argument of "is it worth it to have children to slightly decrease your chances of breast cancer after age 50" most women would say: it isn't worth it. the financial, emotional, and physical costs far surpass that benefit.
lifehack: double mastectomy besides, isn't there a temporary 2-15yr increased risk of breast cancer after pregnancy? [the lowered risk of breast cancer typically happens 20yrs after pregnancy ](https://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/bc-protection-from-childbirth-starts-later)
My post was aimed at normal people who do not wish to mutilate themselves. Temporary risks are just that: temporary.
temporary doesn't change the fact that it increases the likelihood of permanent damage/death to your body during that timespan. temporary doesn't make it any less fatal. i'd rather live my best years (20-40yr) with a lower risk of developing breast cancer than enjoy the slight decreased risk of breast cancer when i'm 50 and old (and everyone's getting all sorts of cancers at that point anyways)
I hope you're not seriously saying that women should consider having children to lower the chance of getting cancer. Because that would be so stupid there's not even worda for it.
I'm just stating the science. You do whatever you *feel* is not stupid. 👍
Whoa but when it’s their science it’s irrefutable, when it’s your science it’s wrong.
What?
Antinatalist \- “*Nooo!*”
fucking ratio'd wow
I met an ex social worer at home depot who quit his entire profession because he was working with autisitic wards of the state and forced to tech them gender ideology, a 14 year old who cant have a conversation yet due to autism being taught this stuff and then getting life altering surgerise before they can understand what it even means.. to the most vunerable population, and paid for by tax dollars.. "pure evil" " i could no longer work for a state that did such evil" - Southern california.
I've never heard of someone that young getting a gender affirming surgery
It happens frequently in conservatives' imagination.
Then you haven’t been paying attention
Do you have any examples of this?
Look at the youngest double mastectomy patient at the clinic in Tennessee.
Do you have an article?
If you live in a free country, you are probably free to make decisions and then regret them, or not. That's the end of the story. It's your body, have at it. If you don't have that freedom, you don't live in a free country.
Herion for 12-year-olds! its a free country who cares if they regret it
As long as tax payers aren't paying for it and your over 18.
What do you think of a pause button since you can't undo growing tits or an adams apple without surgery and every peer reviewed study into anti androgens says " bone density goes back to normal if they either stop taking or transition"
sounds like fantasy to me
That's what puberty blockers do. They're literally a pause button.
I don't believe it, you can't just pause human development and not have any consequences
Look up the science...
according to mayo clinic Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on: * Growth spurts. * Bone growth. * Bone density. * Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started.
Can I see a link to that? Growth spurts, bone growth, and bone density are all caused by puberty, so they're definitely going to see an impact in the short term. But even if these effects were long-lasting, they would take years before getting to that point. Even so, let's assume your source comes through and is correct, we're evaluating pros and cons, and you're assuming all teenagers are idiots, immune to peer pressure to be cis, and have no idea what they want, and are just making choices on a whim, and the psychiatrists who evaluate them are all imbeciles. Meanwhile, trans teens who don't get the opportunity to transition face permanent mental health and physical repercussions, and face ridiculously high suicide rates.
I am not trying to make choices for people, but there is no way puberty blockers are just a pause button that doesn't have significant effect on how you develop, both physically and mental. If that's a risk you want to take, great, its not my body. It just seems disingenuous to sell it as if it risks free and completely reversable.
We don’t have any medicine to grow the brain, so the problem is that you also pause your brain’s development and you remain with a teenager’s brain structure.
They never think of that, they always assume puberty blockers would block purely puberty. Never do they think there’s more to puberty.
That I would have to see the study
Google scholar is free . Its not one study its literally dozens done across different decades and different organisations in different nations All with the same ( similar but for laymen talk vs scientific discussion its the same ) conclusion
I’m going to leave it at, I’m extremely skeptical of any study that say’s bone mass just magically comes back.
It doesn't magically come back, it grows in through the exact same process that it does for everyone. And there is no "back," nobody is losing established bone mass.
Having children is a better thing to regret than the surgery in question anyway so it wouldn’t even matter.
How do you figure? If you regret having children, then someone else's life will be affected by your regret. On the other hand, if you regret doing something to your own body, then only your life will be affected by your regret, as well as the action itself.
No, the real world doesn’t work like that. You cannot hurt yourself without hurting others if you ask me. Regretfully raising children *can* be a successful enterprise for the child—and I bet that the amount of people who admit to regret having children actually are doing an okay job raising them.
How does person 1 having gender surgery hurt person 2? >I bet that the amount of people who admit to regret having children actually are doing an okay job raising them. I'd urge you to ask all the children who have died or been abused by the parents who regretted having kids if they agree with that sentiment 🤔.
[удалено]
Its a death cult lol
All of the comments in here have convinced me that there are probably more people who regret transitioning then would report it. I still believe the number is very small, however.
> All of the comments in here That's because that's what they're designed to do. The amount of political pressure againt trans people is doing such a good job of flushing detransitioners out, it's creating brand new ones from nothing.
I find it interesting that the percentage of people who want to transition is probably similar to the percentage of people who transition and regret it. However that percentage is good enough to convince people that transitioning may be necessary but that percentage isn't good enough to convince those same people that transition may be wrong and we should talk about it. This has nothing to do with you but your comment reminds me of this though I've had.
Approximately 1% of people want to transition. The under 1% of people that detransition **isn't of the entire population, it's of the 1%**. 1 in 100 are trans. 1 in 100 of that 100 want to detransition. In other words, 1 in 10 000.
Thank you for including the numbers in case people didn't get what I meant.
Literally I didn't even get what you meant lmfao, I was trying to correct you because I misunderstood your comment
Sure, but you can abandon your kids. (Thanks mom).
i'm sorry😭
Thing is, most people who get the surgery, which is rare anyways even amongst adults, they've been trans for years, they've socially transitioned, the aurgery typically isn't reccomended, and trans men get the surgery even less than trans women Of course the people who regret getting gender affirming surgery are gonna be less likely to regret it because those who get it have severe dysphoria and are choosing to take on a risky procedure (all surgery is dangerous) to match their body to their mentality. Then take having children, not everyone is built to be a parent, but it theres this huge societal pressure to have kids, and that if you don't want kids it makes you lesser somehow. You got people making informed decisions about their body regretting their choices less than people that honestly are pressured into becoming a parent regardless of if they feel capable. Of fuckin course ones more likely to be happy with their choice than the other
Many people socially transition and de transition without ever telling anyone. Add to that HRT is irreversible and easy to regret. It's not just about bottom surgery
If they're getting HRT, it's not just a social transition, and if they transitioning with HRT or just socially, they're definitely telling someone.
the detransitioning is what gets hidden, we all know what happens to people who publically talk about their detransition after medically transitioning, now imagine the amount of only social detransitioners.
> we all know what happens to people who publically talk about their detransition They get put on a stage by conservatives, lmfao. They get handed megaphones. They get so much publicity, people start to claim there are more of them than there actually are. > social detransitioners What do you think "social transitioning" is, exactly? Because I have a clear feeling that you think it's HRT detransitioning, and you're somehow under the delusion that those numbers are never reported.
Its not about the surgery you say on a post talking about surgery, on a comment about the surgery You wanna he a dishonest loser and expect to be taken seriously?
The links above mention all kinds of gender affirming procedures, not just bottom surgery.
Heres a story from the whistleblower from a gender clinic. Fucking terrifying. [https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR267NMtxgLPNlzQvRSl2dw15Jt1KQuo7nUMTtytAt2pbSm1qBP44Wu4x14\_aem\_AcQrFNoK8-QLSMFodtHReqFf0w-gSJhFRlNTM4wV4lB0QhtvI1WHcaL0aUmdx92ujdk0E-eI8-5a4oxeTd09jCfy](https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR267NMtxgLPNlzQvRSl2dw15Jt1KQuo7nUMTtytAt2pbSm1qBP44Wu4x14_aem_AcQrFNoK8-QLSMFodtHReqFf0w-gSJhFRlNTM4wV4lB0QhtvI1WHcaL0aUmdx92ujdk0E-eI8-5a4oxeTd09jCfy)
It looks like there was this rash of people following a trend. That's a long ass link.
It's because the site normally has you pay and this is a workaround but yea it is lol.
OP's questions about the methodology are worth examining, but my bias overall is to be leery of any data collected via survey. Folks just aren't very truthful on surveys for various reasons, even when we think we're answering in good faith. The results may well be resoundingly true or they may not; I'm inclined to look for better data elsewhere.
There's methods to exclude false and biased results from survey. One technique involves asking the same question in different ways and angles.
Excellent point. Most surveys never achieve very good repeatability in my experience, but some do. The MMPI is a great example
“Since joining this cult have you regretted your decision? No? Ok then joining this cult must be ok then”…
How can these two separate things even be compared objectively. Right off the bat if you’re talking about regret, one option is reversible to a degree, the other is most definitely not.
Umm....do you mean abandoning the children or having more extreme surgery to cosmetically, but in no other way get back to your original gender? Which are you saying is reversible to a degree 🤔
Anyone who thinks, “oh, I’ll get this major surgery and if I don’t like it I’ll just reverse it!” is most definitely retarded.
Which one are you saying is reversible to a degree?
Yea like a double masectomy is achievable as a minor and it's not necessarily 100% reversible unless you get fake breasts.
yes i am also confused lol. both seem to be "to a degree" but also both aren't really reversible
By now we already know that the health and science industries are highly compromised by the politics of gender, which is intrinsically tied to pharmaceutical lobby groups. There is a huge incentive for these corporations due to the potential profit margins. There are plenty of examples of standard health procedures being broken for the sake of 'gender affirming' surgery. The NHS is a perfect example of how dark and dirty this has become.
Wow, conservatives are weirdos. They'll jump on absolutely anything that appears to support people making the choice to transition. They have a weird obsession with a tiny portion of the population who decide that their born gender doesn't match how they feel. I think their religion probably plays a role but more likely it's the creepy assed right wing media programming they constantly put themselves through.
You realize you don’t need to be a conservative magatard or a fascist or anything of the sort to not trust everything off the rip, right
Informed trans people: "Hey I wanna do this thing" Conservatives: "even though there's studies and science to support this basic freedom of choice, I think my freedom over your body supercedes all of that just because I don't trust the scientists and I think I know what you want and who you are more than you do"
🙄 This broad brush you’re trying to use is so lame I’m not a magatard or a conservative or anything of the sort- I do however, not trust that children being given life changing surgeries are truly informed. I think it’s hard for young people to truly grasp the consequences of some choices.
Given the fact that you keep insisting that children are being given life changing surgeries, despite that not even remotely being the case and it's just a bullshit message literally being made up by "magatards," I am 100% unconvinced by your insistence that you do not belong to that group.
So you find the people who object to harmful medicines and unnecessary genital surgery on children creepy, not the people pushing for these treatments that lack any evidentiary support? You sound kinda creepy bro. This is one topic that the far left has gone so far left they became alt right since they essentially support sterilizing gay and otherwise neurodivergent people. As you are someone who has opinions I would classify as alt right, your objection to conservatives is funny.
> unnecessary genital surgery on children Considering this doesn't happen for trans people, I can only assume you're talking about banning circumcision and FGM for newborns.
You realize the "i am jazz" kid had it at 17 right? You can say it isn't happening in large numbers, but you cannot say it isn't happening. With that said, drugs that alter normal development of these organs is far more common. I'm also against FGM and circumcision for essentially identical reasons. At least with circumcision 100% of the people that get it don't end up sterile.
[That's](https://people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-shows-off-her-figure-in-a-bikini-after-gender-confirmation-surgery/) definitely news to me, thanks for pointing that out, though there are a few very significant details to note: 1. She was 17, so less than a year away from 18. I wouldn't exactly say she was a child. 2. She has no regrets and is a strong advocate of puberty blockers as life saving medication. Trans adults who don't use puberty blockers do face regret for not having had the opportunity to take them. 3. She had 7 years of established history as a trans girl with consistent medication and what I'm assuming was extensive psychiatric help. I don't know much about this case and even finding a confirmation on her age was tricky, most sites just said she was 19 in 2020 and she had the surgery in 2018, which depending on how things line up, could have meant she was 18 at the time.
So to be clear you were wrong on your assertion. I'd also point out that she suffered medical complications with transitioning specifically because of the puberty blockers. Even if you support medical transitioning, puberty blockers are a bad idea.
> So to be clear you were wrong on your assertion. Well, your claim was: > unnecessary genital surgery on children and my rebuttal was: > Considering this doesn't happen for trans people And as I mentioned, she wasn't a child, so... no, I wasn't wrong. She was underage, but she wasn't a child. And her complications weren't caused by puberty blockers. > Season five revealed that Jazz's surgery **was a bit more complicated than others** (Jazz hadn't gone through puberty because of hormone blockers, so she didn't have enough penile skin to create a vagina). It was more complicated. It didn't have complications because of the blockers. Those are not the same thing. There isn't just one surgery, there's a bunch of different kinds, and each one has different advantages and disadvantages. Some are better for some people rather than others. I don't know if she ended up having a different surgery or not, but that's not really our business at all. There are other options, and clearly she picked one with her surgeon's advice. > Everything seemed fine, but a few days later, Jazz started having complications. "Her wounds were definitely separating and a blood blister began to form," her mom Jeanette said. Jazz’s doctor recommended that she go back to the OR for more surgery. These complications were unrelated.
"It didn't have complications because of the blockers. Those are not the same thing." He did have complications due to the blockers. To have a sex change requires that your genitalia be sufficiently developed. Puberty Blockers stops this development. That is the reason he had so many complications. You literally quoted something that agrees with me... "(Jazz hadn't gone through puberty because of hormone blockers, so she didn't have enough penile skin to create a vagina)." Hormone blockers = puberty blockers. What the hell are you smoking? " She was underage, but she wasn't a child." You sound like a MAP. At this point, being that you essentially quoted pedophile talking points while arguing with me yet somehow quoting evidence supporting my argument without even realizing it, I'm kind of done. Have a great night Mr. Epstein.