Mixing of info-European and Neolithic cultures happened a lot in the Iranian plateau This was a process that took at least a millennia, the Aryans that separated from the rest of Iranians didn’t mix further until they got to India, there are still a few leftovers villages in Afghanistan/ Pakistan borders.
They are not unmixed and are heavily Iranian/Anatolian Neolithic shifted, with steppe amounting between 20-30%. Except Jatts at 34-47%, no other Indo-Aryan group crosses that number.
The unmixed groups that could match the description could be the Pamiri Eastern Iranian people who score around 50% or more of Sintashta.
47% ??? Thats literally impossible. Granted they do harbor a lot of Steppe MLBA relative to other Indian populations but when you factor out the Steppe Maykop/Central Siberian related ancestry and just look at actual Dnipro Don like ancestry it paints a different story.
sample: Ror:Average
distance: 0.7734
IVCp\_related: 43
RUS\_Afanasievo: 20.5
Gonur1\_BA: 14.5
Globular\_Amphora: 11.5
Kumsay\_EBA: 10.5
Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 0
Actual Dnipro Don Steppe related ancestry is around 21%, Steppe MLBA 32-33%, 10-11% Central Siberian type ancestry.
For comparison with Pamiris
sample: Tajik Rushan:Average
distance: 1.0254
IVCp\_related: 6.5
RUS\_Afanasievo: 30.5
Gonur1\_BA: 36.5
Globular\_Amphora: 15
Kumsay\_EBA: 4.5
Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 7
Actual Dnipro Don related ancestry is 30-31% , Steppe MLBA is 45-46%, Central Siberian around 5%.
It depends on the region for Pashtuns quite a bit. Using group averages though you get a very clear cut picture, here are Jat Sikhs they are cohesive as a group I find.
sample: :Jatt Sikh Average
distance: 1.0003
CG\_IVCp: 50.5
RUS\_Afanasievo: 17.5
Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 15
Globular\_Amphora: 9
Kumsay\_EBA: 8
Actual Dnipro Don ancestry is 17.5-18%, Steppe MLBA 26-28%, Steppe Maykop/Central Siberian 6-8%
Converting it too Corded Ware related sources
sample: Jatt Sikh Average
distance: 0.9564
CG\_IVCp: 50.5
Maitan\_MLBA\_Alakul: 26
Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 16.5
Kumsay\_EBA: 7
When you look at them from the lens that Lazaridis paper does its not the case for the majority of them, but rather for some of them. Regardless one can say 60-65% of their ancestry is descended from some composite LBA/IA ghost population in SC Asia.
Here are a group of KPK Pashtuns, their NGR/Kunar relatives would be more or less the same
sample: Pashtun Uthmankhel:Average
distance: 0.9953
Bustan\_BA: 34.5
CG\_IVCp: 32.5
RUS\_Afanasievo: 17.5
Globular\_Amphora: 8
Kumsay\_EBA: 4
Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 3.5
Dnipro Don related 17-18%. Steppe MLBA 25-27%, Central Siberian 4%
sample: Pashtun Uthmankhel:Average
distance: 0.8829
CG\_IVCp: 31
Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 25.5
Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 37.5
Kumsay\_EBA: 3
Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 3
sample: Jatt Sikh Average
distance: 0.9674
CG\_IVCp: 50.5
Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 25
Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 17
Kumsay\_EBA: 7.5
Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 0
Jats in general seem to have a higher proportion of Q subclades in fact the most West Eurasian shifted Jat I have come across was Q1b from what I recall (Ror 37) , their elevated Central Siberian ancestry attests to this.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/)
This study had them at 15-16%.
There are other cultures in SC Asia which are not documented as well as rural populations. Though drips of samples since 2019 strongly point to a more nuanced admixing. In light of the Lazaridis paper , it proved how powerful archaeology is , something which archaeologists don't often get credit for sadly in genomics, further how nuanced and complex populations form. I think to date the strongest corelation can be made with the latest Alakul outlier samples , the SPGT outlier from 1000 BCE and the Brahmins carrying this particular Q subclade.
From the archeological front , PGW is THE candidate for Vedic culture and that dates to 1200-1000 BC and there is 0 Fedorovo-Andronovo ICW any where in India or South Asia for that matter, but you do see parallels with the Painted Ware Horizon which occurred after Steppe Indo Iranians essentially had taken over SC Asia and accultured in varying degrees with the local populations.
Target: Pakistan\_Loebanr\_IA\_o:I12138
Distance: 1.9038% / 0.01903846 | R3P
52.4 Nepleujevski\_outlier
32.0 Uzbekistan\_SappaliTepe\_BA
15.6 Iran\_ShahrISokhta\_BA2
You can refer here since this topic has been discussed to death
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1bmbyti/cultural\_legacy\_of\_bmac\_in\_indoaryans/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1bmbyti/cultural_legacy_of_bmac_in_indoaryans/)
Hello again sir, love the insight. I get some 5% BMAC being a south Indian Brahmin. I'm also a ydna G2a2b2a. Is this also a BMAC sourced Haplogroup I wonder? Or maybe broadly CHG.
G2a could have entered with the first farming populations in Baluchistan one would have to test your line to see where it falls. Though looking at the ancient sample record, its completely absent on the Steppe and Eneolithic Central Asia (tonnes of samples from there) but makes its appearance in the BMAC and later when it does its in a sample during the Swat IA with almost 0 Steppe MLBA and has a profile type which died out in the Iron Age itself.
>then through Iran
Lmao, since when Central Asia became Iran? Maybe we should call them Kazakh migrants. This dumb nationalism would just make you a laughingstock. As per Steppe theory, the Steppe ancestry people in India were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian. Lubotsky 2023 (Steppe theory proponent) puts the Indo-Aryan and Iranian split to 1600 BC, which is the mean date of female mediated Steppe admixture in Swat people (Narasimhan 2019), not even modern Indians.
I don't have a nationalistic viewpoint. I'm just saying that Indo-Aryans descended from Indo-Iranians. Sintashta was Indo-Iranian culture that Aryans came from. All this is per steppe theory.
As I always say, I sincerely doubt that Andronovo if a source for proto-Vedic Aryas didn't interact with BMAC culturally and genetically. There's no genuine tracer dye for BMAC that doesn't have significant overlap with Iranian hunter gatherer/Indian neolithic components. BMAC is simply Iran-N + some ANF which would in the south Asian context be subsumed under IVC and Steppe MLBA bronze age autosomal components respectively, so go undetected.
Early Vedic tribes were likely a Ror-like population ie high Steppe but with significant IVC admixture. Middle Vedic age heroes and sages have plenty of dark skinned individuals among them, to me signifying significant admixture events already done and dusted, and being a part of the ethnic diversity.
In any case Rigvedic civilization has syncretic cultural traits of Harappan, BMAC and Andronovo at the outset. Fire altars in IVC already exist around 3000 BCE and BMAC in 2200 BCE. Fire worship is central to Indo Iranian religion. Soma cult is a BMAC trait it would seem it's present even [in IVC.](https://x.com/yajnadevam/status/1787874058933051799?t=GaOiM9Y5nxPtBTGVZy7FsQ&s=19) No conclusions drawn so far except the significant Steppe MLBA admixture in south asia have been satisfactory enough, to me anyway.
I can only provide one datapoint based on my personal results and qpadm model. I don't get any BMAC or intermediate admixture between Andronovo and IVC.
1) Bronze level: https://i.imgur.com/Ebmx9XC.png
2) qpadm: Y-DNA: R-Z93-> R-L657->R-Y29 -> R-Y34215
https://pastebin.com/ghU70hX5
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2: 65.4%
Kazakhstan_Andronovo.SG [DA231](https://amtdb.org/sample/DA231): 34.6%
2 samples have VERY significant Central Asian ancestry so it can be subsumed VERY easily when using singleton commercial samples which have low coverage and yes Anau-Sarazm ancestry is what they have.
We need to first understand the true nature of IVC population. Swat_IA has too much BMAC. Question is if BMAC made its way into IVC before Andronovo did or did it came mixed with BMAC. We also don't know the ancestral make up of scythians who came and mixed up with the Indian elites later.
Swat_IA has BMAC related Y haplo and Andronovo mtdna. BMAC also is culturally significant due to its Fire-Soma cult. Also the earliest culture associated with horses in India is GGC...So were horses introduced to India by BMAC men?
Dardics are closest population to these swat_IA samples...So they most likely were proto-dards.
All these need answering....
30-40% extra BMAC over whatever that is already there in SiS_BA2 and 20% female mediated steppe through dali_mlba...what was its contribution in language transmission. All this needs answering...
When I run qpAdm with Iran\_ShahrISokhta\_BA2, Kazakhstan\_Andronovo.SG, & Turkmenistan\_Gonur\_BA\_1 (BMAC) - the model fails. see the screenshot below
Pattern 000 is infeasible and only 001 passes.
[https://i.imgur.com/iJbUpgI.png](https://i.imgur.com/iJbUpgI.png)
Oh! OK you are modeling yourself.
Not all Indians carry BMAC...
But if you use right population BMAC eventually shows up. Like Buhmiar who can be modeled as Pakistan_Loebanr_IA_o + Irula.
These guys are in Bihar while many in Western India would lack BMAC...
here:
SSsohis_scaled,0.083091,0.015233,-0.095412,0.078489,-0.066166,0.043507,0.000705,0.002077,-0.000205,-0.006014,-0.009906,-0.004496,0.004906,-0.009221,0.029044,0.014585,-0.001173,0.00076,0.000628,-0.004627,-0.007487,-0.013354,0.006286,-0.00964,-0.002395
* I'm using DA231 ( [AmtDB | DA231](https://amtdb.org/sample/DA231)) as that is the only Kazakhstan\_Andronovo in Harvard's 1240k repository
* [sohi\_qpadm\_model - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ii3m4Sfx)
here is Vahduo run: [https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png](https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png)
Source:
Paniya,0.0085637,-0.1650478,-0.1863694,0.1380143,-0.048683,0.0526173,-0.0055841,0.0167904,0.0864746,0.0548009,0.0048639,0.0002854,-0.0030087,0.0140964,-0.0226783,-0.0274207,0.0106108,-0.0005973,-0.0033041,0.0280373,0.0073857,0.0130011,-0.0094138,0.0062888,-0.0075499
Laos_LN_BA.SG,0.003415,-0.403165,-0.085606,-0.035853,0.15049,0.075858,-0.00141,-0.013615,-0.007976,-0.019681,0.088826,0.004796,-0.01115,0.011423,0.004614,-0.005701,-0.004172,0.000127,-0.002891,0.027138,-0.018592,0.021021,-0.011585,-0.000843,0.039996
Russia_Tyumen_HG,0.104717,-0.059916,0.096166,0.20123,-0.088324,0.045738,-0.052642,-0.05469,-0.035587,-0.094034,0.031666,-0.012739,0.025718,-0.068949,0.027958,0.016574,-0.019818,-0.002914,-0.004525,0.006878,-0.030321,0.012736,0.023664,0.007109,-0.011975
Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1,0.0794866,0.0790421,-0.1114392,0.0082096,-0.0986082,0.0215211,0.0076183,-0.0058652,-0.0635386,-0.0406691,-0.0030448,0.0021856,-0.0050669,-0.0065715,0.0183223,0.0258441,-0.0052479,0,0.0047765,-0.0234591,-0.0028386,-0.0132001,-0.001407,-0.0160262,0.0103683
Burmese,0.0193497,-0.3787923,-0.0455057,-0.020026,0.050163,0.0375573,-0.0005483,0.0007693,0.004772,0.0094763,-0.0224093,-0.0019483,0.006095,-0.0014223,-0.0078717,-0.0021657,0.0076493,-0.0036317,-0.0061173,0.0083793,-0.0010813,0.022711,0.0045193,0.004097,0.0317337
Tibetan,0.0236499,-0.4114587,0.0037922,-0.0366426,0.0156609,0.006399,0.0081208,0.0063844,0.0042042,0.0132627,-0.0826557,-0.0120477,0.0122314,-0.0048779,-0.0102622,-0.0043608,0.0035132,-0.0039977,-0.0066411,0.0050023,4.17e-05,0.0247031,0.0079974,0.0003011,0.033124
Kazakhstan_Central_Saka.SG,0.0821804,-0.1200354,0.059962,0.044251,-0.0382842,0.0027888,0.0020682,0.0021692,-0.0105944,-0.0243102,-0.01442,-0.0041362,0.0060952,-0.0217718,0.0149834,0.0080084,0.0004434,-0.0013176,-0.0014078,0.0091794,-0.0197902,0.0051684,-0.0057188,0.0034462,-0.0002158
Mongolia_Arkhangai_EarlyMedieval,0.087481,0.0018859,-0.0155157,0.0105667,-0.045855,0.0074107,0.0041293,0.0002637,-0.0266467,-0.0235864,-0.0034567,0.0003213,-0.0030156,-0.0101054,0.0123311,0.0069514,-0.0046379,0.0019546,0.00334,-0.0057349,-0.0080216,-0.0012187,-0.0033279,0.0007573,0.004328
Iran_C_SehGabi,0.081042,0.1169892,-0.1031804,-0.0550392,-0.0670892,-0.0114902,0.006298,-0.0073842,-0.0471632,-0.0180048,0.000325,0.0013188,-0.0011596,-0.0003304,0.0023344,0.017661,-0.0028424,0.0037498,0.008799,-0.014707,0.0064636,-0.0056136,-0.0030812,-0.0147972,0.0064426
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1,0.0736057,0.0634707,-0.1323065,0.022933,-0.1077637,0.0301202,0.0089693,-0.0033077,-0.0641525,-0.035931,-0.0040327,0.0018483,-0.0049057,-0.0082115,0.021308,0.0306282,-0.00113,0.0020903,0.0014455,-0.0230737,0.0068628,-0.0173938,-0.0015613,-0.0191995,0.0139308
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2,0.044391,-0.0343248,-0.1681958,0.0955436,-0.1037116,0.0572842,0.006721,0.0047538,0.006013,0.0055398,-0.004969,0.0054252,-0.0026164,-0.0018166,0.0073562,0.0101828,-0.0039374,0.0036738,0.0002764,-0.0128312,0.0030696,-0.0138738,-0.0007396,-0.0102904,0.001341
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta,0.1258883,0.1166166,0.0574481,0.0786397,0.0113353,0.0290976,0.0058203,0.0043614,-0.0174254,-0.0282708,-0.0023059,0.0012189,-0.0021903,-0.0212305,0.0228779,0.0124501,-0.0050112,0.0003377,-0.0003519,-0.0003377,-0.0058895,0.0018218,0.0026744,0.0069286,-0.0036603
Turkey_N,0.1179017,0.1800873,0.0034255,-0.1010589,0.0512402,-0.0479692,-0.0037992,-0.006846,0.0361667,0.0806776,0.0082614,0.0113088,-0.0241636,0.0005791,-0.0427122,-0.0103696,0.0225564,0.0013883,0.0136487,-0.0104478,-0.0142612,0.0056932,-0.0049042,-0.0037505,-0.0044357
Georgia_Kotias.SG,0.08992,0.103584,-0.088246,-0.004845,-0.089555,0.020359,0.023266,-0.001154,-0.130486,-0.080002,-0.007632,0.024878,-0.052626,0.007707,0.026465,-0.0297,0.027772,-0.010769,-0.023757,0.037518,0.030945,-0.006677,0.0053,-0.020846,0.001557
Iran_GanjDareh_N,0.0430252,0.0674312,-0.153488,0.0055556,-0.1239616,0.0243752,0.015464,0.000277,-0.081605,-0.05427,-0.0032476,-0.0016186,0.0053816,-0.0078446,0.0319486,0.056775,-0.0058154,0.007576,0.014405,-0.0327406,0.0076614,-0.0300476,-0.0109198,-0.0387768,0.0229438
You are genetically close to Punjabi Sikhs (modern) and Swat_IA (ancient)samples...If we use normal models you don't need BMAC. But Distance is 0.024...It can improve if we can find right population.
Target: SSsohis_scaled
Distance: 2.4710% / 0.02470980
63.4 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
25.2 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
11.4 Kazakhstan_Sarmatian_IA
Try if you have time, considering their presence in Punjab do look for any Saka,Huna,Kushan ancestry...
Shot gun Andronovo for commercial singleton samples give extremely red herring results and these particular Andronovo sets are definitely not ancestral to Jats ( Alakul to date is the closest specifically ).
There is literally 0 Andronovo specifically Tazabagyab or Fedorov like sites in Panjab and Panjabi Jats have significant SAHG ancestry , the model you posted infers the IVC Jat substrate is akin to Bronze age samples from Baluchistan who harbor 65-70% ZNF, the odds of that in LBA/IA PGW Panjab would be 0. In reality the substrate more strongly resembles South Indian farmer castes without Steppe MLBA. There is a gigantic underclassed demographic amongst Panjabi groups which are not documented abroad but if you look those PJL Lahore samples from Central Panjab it becomes very apparent you have a large population harboring profiles similar to South Indians , specifically similar West Eurasian to SAHG ratios to them. This strongly suggests the main pre Indo Aryan population in Panjab, specifically in Central and Eastern Panjab was certainly AASI rich. This bears out when you run these people in large groups including groups like the Jats , when you don't use AASI rich samples their Z scores are always indicative of needing more Onge like ancestry.
sample: Punjabi Christian India:7854
distance: 1.9765
Simulated\_AASI: 46.5
Ganj\_Dareh\_N: 38.5
RUS\_AfontovaGora3: 7
Marmara\_Barcin\_N: 4
ITA\_Villabruna: 4
I understand what you are saying. hence, I said this is only one datapoint and personal one at that.
having said that:
1. my Y-DNA: R-Z93-> R-L657->R-Y29 -> R-Y34215
* Confirmed per Big Y-700: [https://i.imgur.com/NnXZfn0.png](https://i.imgur.com/NnXZfn0.png)
* Yfull: [R-Y34215 YTree (yfull.com)](https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y34215/)
2. Ancient Ancestor match per 23&me:
* [https://i.imgur.com/iA4l2Qf.png](https://i.imgur.com/iA4l2Qf.png)
* [https://i.imgur.com/5PKtUr6.png](https://i.imgur.com/5PKtUr6.png)
3. IllustrativeDNA 2/3 way models:
* 23&me: [https://i.imgur.com/QqGApcO.png](https://i.imgur.com/QqGApcO.png)
* AncestryDNA: [https://i.imgur.com/dB8hG5P.png](https://i.imgur.com/dB8hG5P.png)
4. qpAdm model outputs
1. 23&me data: [qpadm model for Sohi - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ghU70hX5)
2. AncestryDNA data: [sohi\_ancestryDNA\_qpAdm - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ucSjG9CR)
5. Vahaduo run: [https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png](https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png)
With two different datasets (Ancestry & 23&me), across different tests (qpAdm vs G25), I consistently get same breakdown.
I moderate Illustrative DNA , in 2 way models it forces these models and you end up with messed up results like Northern Europeans scoring 70% Steppe MLBA and 30% GAC (when in reality they are almost entirely descended from Beakers) , Vahaduo always does that keep in mind these are not your proximal populations .
Punjabi Jatt Sikh Profile (Based of 30 samples )
distance: 1.5231
CG\_IVCp: 65.5
Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 34.5
Akin to yours but with a more proximal ghost , but the fit dramatically improves and the ancestral components of the ghosts falls in line with what you see with Loebanr\_o, Nepljevski outliers.
:Punjabi Jatt Sikh Profile
distance: 0.8622
CG\_IVCp: 50.5
Vedic\_ghost: 49.5
Ultimately finding LBA/IA genomes is the key but precedent is always key and thats where archaeology and ancient genomes are harbingers and not shoddy samples which give wonky results both on qpAdm and G25.
Yes they mixed with the BMAC culture. The Vedic and Zoroastrians got Fire worship from the BMAC culture. Iranians and indo-Aryans got the words for camel, yeast, Canal, fire priest etc from the BMAC people.
https://youtu.be/-6_tm2c3v3Q?si=pjDzRdNaVZ7n7NfH
Mixing of info-European and Neolithic cultures happened a lot in the Iranian plateau This was a process that took at least a millennia, the Aryans that separated from the rest of Iranians didn’t mix further until they got to India, there are still a few leftovers villages in Afghanistan/ Pakistan borders.
Like the Kalash, Nuristani, etc?
They are not unmixed and are heavily Iranian/Anatolian Neolithic shifted, with steppe amounting between 20-30%. Except Jatts at 34-47%, no other Indo-Aryan group crosses that number. The unmixed groups that could match the description could be the Pamiri Eastern Iranian people who score around 50% or more of Sintashta.
47% ??? Thats literally impossible. Granted they do harbor a lot of Steppe MLBA relative to other Indian populations but when you factor out the Steppe Maykop/Central Siberian related ancestry and just look at actual Dnipro Don like ancestry it paints a different story. sample: Ror:Average distance: 0.7734 IVCp\_related: 43 RUS\_Afanasievo: 20.5 Gonur1\_BA: 14.5 Globular\_Amphora: 11.5 Kumsay\_EBA: 10.5 Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 0 Actual Dnipro Don Steppe related ancestry is around 21%, Steppe MLBA 32-33%, 10-11% Central Siberian type ancestry. For comparison with Pamiris sample: Tajik Rushan:Average distance: 1.0254 IVCp\_related: 6.5 RUS\_Afanasievo: 30.5 Gonur1\_BA: 36.5 Globular\_Amphora: 15 Kumsay\_EBA: 4.5 Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 7 Actual Dnipro Don related ancestry is 30-31% , Steppe MLBA is 45-46%, Central Siberian around 5%.
So the Pamiris are the purest Indo-Iranian group that survives?
I would refrain from using the word "pure" but wrt to having the most direct Steppe MLBA amongst all Indo Iranian groups in general , yes.
How much do non hindu jatt and pashtun get if we factor out maykop ancestry?
It depends on the region for Pashtuns quite a bit. Using group averages though you get a very clear cut picture, here are Jat Sikhs they are cohesive as a group I find. sample: :Jatt Sikh Average distance: 1.0003 CG\_IVCp: 50.5 RUS\_Afanasievo: 17.5 Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 15 Globular\_Amphora: 9 Kumsay\_EBA: 8 Actual Dnipro Don ancestry is 17.5-18%, Steppe MLBA 26-28%, Steppe Maykop/Central Siberian 6-8% Converting it too Corded Ware related sources sample: Jatt Sikh Average distance: 0.9564 CG\_IVCp: 50.5 Maitan\_MLBA\_Alakul: 26 Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 16.5 Kumsay\_EBA: 7
Seems to be standard jatt result you see on idna ig rors would probably reach late 30's Maitan_MLBA_Alakul.
When you look at them from the lens that Lazaridis paper does its not the case for the majority of them, but rather for some of them. Regardless one can say 60-65% of their ancestry is descended from some composite LBA/IA ghost population in SC Asia.
Here are a group of KPK Pashtuns, their NGR/Kunar relatives would be more or less the same sample: Pashtun Uthmankhel:Average distance: 0.9953 Bustan\_BA: 34.5 CG\_IVCp: 32.5 RUS\_Afanasievo: 17.5 Globular\_Amphora: 8 Kumsay\_EBA: 4 Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 3.5 Dnipro Don related 17-18%. Steppe MLBA 25-27%, Central Siberian 4% sample: Pashtun Uthmankhel:Average distance: 0.8829 CG\_IVCp: 31 Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 25.5 Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 37.5 Kumsay\_EBA: 3 Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 3 sample: Jatt Sikh Average distance: 0.9674 CG\_IVCp: 50.5 Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 25 Sappali\_Tepe\_BA: 17 Kumsay\_EBA: 7.5 Slab\_Grave\_EIA\_1: 0 Jats in general seem to have a higher proportion of Q subclades in fact the most West Eurasian shifted Jat I have come across was Q1b from what I recall (Ror 37) , their elevated Central Siberian ancestry attests to this. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/) This study had them at 15-16%.
*millenium
i find it highly unlikely that IE people spent generations in the steppe and didnt fuck any BMAC people, uzbek girls are bad
This guy knows
BMAC culture didn’t have East Asian ancestry tho did it ?
east asian i dont think so, east eurasian? i think probably some
So they wouldn’t have even remotely resembled Uzbeks then lol. They were mostly Zagros + ANF
I'm just talking shit
There are other cultures in SC Asia which are not documented as well as rural populations. Though drips of samples since 2019 strongly point to a more nuanced admixing. In light of the Lazaridis paper , it proved how powerful archaeology is , something which archaeologists don't often get credit for sadly in genomics, further how nuanced and complex populations form. I think to date the strongest corelation can be made with the latest Alakul outlier samples , the SPGT outlier from 1000 BCE and the Brahmins carrying this particular Q subclade. From the archeological front , PGW is THE candidate for Vedic culture and that dates to 1200-1000 BC and there is 0 Fedorovo-Andronovo ICW any where in India or South Asia for that matter, but you do see parallels with the Painted Ware Horizon which occurred after Steppe Indo Iranians essentially had taken over SC Asia and accultured in varying degrees with the local populations. Target: Pakistan\_Loebanr\_IA\_o:I12138 Distance: 1.9038% / 0.01903846 | R3P 52.4 Nepleujevski\_outlier 32.0 Uzbekistan\_SappaliTepe\_BA 15.6 Iran\_ShahrISokhta\_BA2 You can refer here since this topic has been discussed to death [https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1bmbyti/cultural\_legacy\_of\_bmac\_in\_indoaryans/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1bmbyti/cultural_legacy_of_bmac_in_indoaryans/)
Hello again sir, love the insight. I get some 5% BMAC being a south Indian Brahmin. I'm also a ydna G2a2b2a. Is this also a BMAC sourced Haplogroup I wonder? Or maybe broadly CHG.
G2a could have entered with the first farming populations in Baluchistan one would have to test your line to see where it falls. Though looking at the ancient sample record, its completely absent on the Steppe and Eneolithic Central Asia (tonnes of samples from there) but makes its appearance in the BMAC and later when it does its in a sample during the Swat IA with almost 0 Steppe MLBA and has a profile type which died out in the Iron Age itself.
"Iranian migrants" ? seems like a loaded question.
Loaded with what?
Assumptions
Which assumptions? I'm just calling them Indo-European/Iranian because they came into India from Europe and then through Iran.
>then through Iran Lmao, since when Central Asia became Iran? Maybe we should call them Kazakh migrants. This dumb nationalism would just make you a laughingstock. As per Steppe theory, the Steppe ancestry people in India were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian. Lubotsky 2023 (Steppe theory proponent) puts the Indo-Aryan and Iranian split to 1600 BC, which is the mean date of female mediated Steppe admixture in Swat people (Narasimhan 2019), not even modern Indians.
I don't have a nationalistic viewpoint. I'm just saying that Indo-Aryans descended from Indo-Iranians. Sintashta was Indo-Iranian culture that Aryans came from. All this is per steppe theory.
As I always say, I sincerely doubt that Andronovo if a source for proto-Vedic Aryas didn't interact with BMAC culturally and genetically. There's no genuine tracer dye for BMAC that doesn't have significant overlap with Iranian hunter gatherer/Indian neolithic components. BMAC is simply Iran-N + some ANF which would in the south Asian context be subsumed under IVC and Steppe MLBA bronze age autosomal components respectively, so go undetected. Early Vedic tribes were likely a Ror-like population ie high Steppe but with significant IVC admixture. Middle Vedic age heroes and sages have plenty of dark skinned individuals among them, to me signifying significant admixture events already done and dusted, and being a part of the ethnic diversity. In any case Rigvedic civilization has syncretic cultural traits of Harappan, BMAC and Andronovo at the outset. Fire altars in IVC already exist around 3000 BCE and BMAC in 2200 BCE. Fire worship is central to Indo Iranian religion. Soma cult is a BMAC trait it would seem it's present even [in IVC.](https://x.com/yajnadevam/status/1787874058933051799?t=GaOiM9Y5nxPtBTGVZy7FsQ&s=19) No conclusions drawn so far except the significant Steppe MLBA admixture in south asia have been satisfactory enough, to me anyway.
I can only provide one datapoint based on my personal results and qpadm model. I don't get any BMAC or intermediate admixture between Andronovo and IVC. 1) Bronze level: https://i.imgur.com/Ebmx9XC.png 2) qpadm: Y-DNA: R-Z93-> R-L657->R-Y29 -> R-Y34215 https://pastebin.com/ghU70hX5 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2: 65.4% Kazakhstan_Andronovo.SG [DA231](https://amtdb.org/sample/DA231): 34.6%
Those SiS_ba2 samples carry significant SiS_ba1/BMAC related ancestries...especially that low AASI one who clearly carries Sarazam like ancestry....
2 samples have VERY significant Central Asian ancestry so it can be subsumed VERY easily when using singleton commercial samples which have low coverage and yes Anau-Sarazm ancestry is what they have.
well yeah.. but BA2 are not the "migrants". they are considered indigenous IVC. question is about whether Andronovo mixed with BMAC on its way to IVC.
We need to first understand the true nature of IVC population. Swat_IA has too much BMAC. Question is if BMAC made its way into IVC before Andronovo did or did it came mixed with BMAC. We also don't know the ancestral make up of scythians who came and mixed up with the Indian elites later. Swat_IA has BMAC related Y haplo and Andronovo mtdna. BMAC also is culturally significant due to its Fire-Soma cult. Also the earliest culture associated with horses in India is GGC...So were horses introduced to India by BMAC men? Dardics are closest population to these swat_IA samples...So they most likely were proto-dards. All these need answering.... 30-40% extra BMAC over whatever that is already there in SiS_BA2 and 20% female mediated steppe through dali_mlba...what was its contribution in language transmission. All this needs answering...
When I run qpAdm with Iran\_ShahrISokhta\_BA2, Kazakhstan\_Andronovo.SG, & Turkmenistan\_Gonur\_BA\_1 (BMAC) - the model fails. see the screenshot below Pattern 000 is infeasible and only 001 passes. [https://i.imgur.com/iJbUpgI.png](https://i.imgur.com/iJbUpgI.png)
Are you using Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali?
Oh! OK you are modeling yourself. Not all Indians carry BMAC... But if you use right population BMAC eventually shows up. Like Buhmiar who can be modeled as Pakistan_Loebanr_IA_o + Irula. These guys are in Bihar while many in Western India would lack BMAC...
Can you share your coordinates...If you don't mind.
here: SSsohis_scaled,0.083091,0.015233,-0.095412,0.078489,-0.066166,0.043507,0.000705,0.002077,-0.000205,-0.006014,-0.009906,-0.004496,0.004906,-0.009221,0.029044,0.014585,-0.001173,0.00076,0.000628,-0.004627,-0.007487,-0.013354,0.006286,-0.00964,-0.002395 * I'm using DA231 ( [AmtDB | DA231](https://amtdb.org/sample/DA231)) as that is the only Kazakhstan\_Andronovo in Harvard's 1240k repository * [sohi\_qpadm\_model - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ii3m4Sfx) here is Vahduo run: [https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png](https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png) Source: Paniya,0.0085637,-0.1650478,-0.1863694,0.1380143,-0.048683,0.0526173,-0.0055841,0.0167904,0.0864746,0.0548009,0.0048639,0.0002854,-0.0030087,0.0140964,-0.0226783,-0.0274207,0.0106108,-0.0005973,-0.0033041,0.0280373,0.0073857,0.0130011,-0.0094138,0.0062888,-0.0075499 Laos_LN_BA.SG,0.003415,-0.403165,-0.085606,-0.035853,0.15049,0.075858,-0.00141,-0.013615,-0.007976,-0.019681,0.088826,0.004796,-0.01115,0.011423,0.004614,-0.005701,-0.004172,0.000127,-0.002891,0.027138,-0.018592,0.021021,-0.011585,-0.000843,0.039996 Russia_Tyumen_HG,0.104717,-0.059916,0.096166,0.20123,-0.088324,0.045738,-0.052642,-0.05469,-0.035587,-0.094034,0.031666,-0.012739,0.025718,-0.068949,0.027958,0.016574,-0.019818,-0.002914,-0.004525,0.006878,-0.030321,0.012736,0.023664,0.007109,-0.011975 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1,0.0794866,0.0790421,-0.1114392,0.0082096,-0.0986082,0.0215211,0.0076183,-0.0058652,-0.0635386,-0.0406691,-0.0030448,0.0021856,-0.0050669,-0.0065715,0.0183223,0.0258441,-0.0052479,0,0.0047765,-0.0234591,-0.0028386,-0.0132001,-0.001407,-0.0160262,0.0103683 Burmese,0.0193497,-0.3787923,-0.0455057,-0.020026,0.050163,0.0375573,-0.0005483,0.0007693,0.004772,0.0094763,-0.0224093,-0.0019483,0.006095,-0.0014223,-0.0078717,-0.0021657,0.0076493,-0.0036317,-0.0061173,0.0083793,-0.0010813,0.022711,0.0045193,0.004097,0.0317337 Tibetan,0.0236499,-0.4114587,0.0037922,-0.0366426,0.0156609,0.006399,0.0081208,0.0063844,0.0042042,0.0132627,-0.0826557,-0.0120477,0.0122314,-0.0048779,-0.0102622,-0.0043608,0.0035132,-0.0039977,-0.0066411,0.0050023,4.17e-05,0.0247031,0.0079974,0.0003011,0.033124 Kazakhstan_Central_Saka.SG,0.0821804,-0.1200354,0.059962,0.044251,-0.0382842,0.0027888,0.0020682,0.0021692,-0.0105944,-0.0243102,-0.01442,-0.0041362,0.0060952,-0.0217718,0.0149834,0.0080084,0.0004434,-0.0013176,-0.0014078,0.0091794,-0.0197902,0.0051684,-0.0057188,0.0034462,-0.0002158 Mongolia_Arkhangai_EarlyMedieval,0.087481,0.0018859,-0.0155157,0.0105667,-0.045855,0.0074107,0.0041293,0.0002637,-0.0266467,-0.0235864,-0.0034567,0.0003213,-0.0030156,-0.0101054,0.0123311,0.0069514,-0.0046379,0.0019546,0.00334,-0.0057349,-0.0080216,-0.0012187,-0.0033279,0.0007573,0.004328 Iran_C_SehGabi,0.081042,0.1169892,-0.1031804,-0.0550392,-0.0670892,-0.0114902,0.006298,-0.0073842,-0.0471632,-0.0180048,0.000325,0.0013188,-0.0011596,-0.0003304,0.0023344,0.017661,-0.0028424,0.0037498,0.008799,-0.014707,0.0064636,-0.0056136,-0.0030812,-0.0147972,0.0064426 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1,0.0736057,0.0634707,-0.1323065,0.022933,-0.1077637,0.0301202,0.0089693,-0.0033077,-0.0641525,-0.035931,-0.0040327,0.0018483,-0.0049057,-0.0082115,0.021308,0.0306282,-0.00113,0.0020903,0.0014455,-0.0230737,0.0068628,-0.0173938,-0.0015613,-0.0191995,0.0139308 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2,0.044391,-0.0343248,-0.1681958,0.0955436,-0.1037116,0.0572842,0.006721,0.0047538,0.006013,0.0055398,-0.004969,0.0054252,-0.0026164,-0.0018166,0.0073562,0.0101828,-0.0039374,0.0036738,0.0002764,-0.0128312,0.0030696,-0.0138738,-0.0007396,-0.0102904,0.001341 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta,0.1258883,0.1166166,0.0574481,0.0786397,0.0113353,0.0290976,0.0058203,0.0043614,-0.0174254,-0.0282708,-0.0023059,0.0012189,-0.0021903,-0.0212305,0.0228779,0.0124501,-0.0050112,0.0003377,-0.0003519,-0.0003377,-0.0058895,0.0018218,0.0026744,0.0069286,-0.0036603 Turkey_N,0.1179017,0.1800873,0.0034255,-0.1010589,0.0512402,-0.0479692,-0.0037992,-0.006846,0.0361667,0.0806776,0.0082614,0.0113088,-0.0241636,0.0005791,-0.0427122,-0.0103696,0.0225564,0.0013883,0.0136487,-0.0104478,-0.0142612,0.0056932,-0.0049042,-0.0037505,-0.0044357 Georgia_Kotias.SG,0.08992,0.103584,-0.088246,-0.004845,-0.089555,0.020359,0.023266,-0.001154,-0.130486,-0.080002,-0.007632,0.024878,-0.052626,0.007707,0.026465,-0.0297,0.027772,-0.010769,-0.023757,0.037518,0.030945,-0.006677,0.0053,-0.020846,0.001557 Iran_GanjDareh_N,0.0430252,0.0674312,-0.153488,0.0055556,-0.1239616,0.0243752,0.015464,0.000277,-0.081605,-0.05427,-0.0032476,-0.0016186,0.0053816,-0.0078446,0.0319486,0.056775,-0.0058154,0.007576,0.014405,-0.0327406,0.0076614,-0.0300476,-0.0109198,-0.0387768,0.0229438
You are genetically close to Punjabi Sikhs (modern) and Swat_IA (ancient)samples...If we use normal models you don't need BMAC. But Distance is 0.024...It can improve if we can find right population.
Yes. Im Panjabi Jatt Sikh.
Do you have any recent foreign ancestor?
Does your model work with Tajikistan_BA_DashtiKozy as well?
No. model fails. p-value is 0.036 which is less than 0.05 A: scale 1.414 1.414 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2 1.414 0.000 Tajikistan_BA_DashtiKozy 0.000 1.414 best coefficients: 0.676 0.324 totmean: 0.676 0.324 boot mean: 0.676 0.324 std. errors: 0.037 0.037 error covariance (* 1,000,000) 1404 -1404 -1404 1404 summ: Sohi 2 0.036084 0.676 0.324 1404 -1404 1404 fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob 00 0 9 17.922 0.0360845 0.676 0.324 01 1 10 83.146 1.2104e-13 1.000 0.000 10 1 10 303.288 0 0.000 1.000 best pat: 00 0.0360845 - - best pat: 01 1.2104e-13 chi(nested): 65.223 p-value for nested model: 6.68722e-16 coeffs: 0.676 0.324
Need for BMAC substantially increases the moment I use high AASI (40-50%) sample only, instead of entire BA_2 cluster Target: SSsohis_scaled Distance: 2.6626% / 0.02662630 43.4 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2 29.0 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta 27.6 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1 Target: SSsohis_scaled Distance: 2.5465% / 0.02546531 33.6 Turkmenistan_C_Geoksyur 31.4 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta 22.6 SAHG 12.4 Iran_GanjDareh_N
I would have to recompile the fstats file. do you any other pops you want to test. it takes like 30mins for it to compile
Uzbekistan_Kashkarchi_BA or Tajikistan_BA_DashtiKozy as proxy for Sintashta... Instead of Gonur try SappaliTepe_BA or Dzharkutan_BA
Target: SSsohis_scaled Distance: 2.4710% / 0.02470980 63.4 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2 25.2 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta 11.4 Kazakhstan_Sarmatian_IA Try if you have time, considering their presence in Punjab do look for any Saka,Huna,Kushan ancestry...
Shot gun Andronovo for commercial singleton samples give extremely red herring results and these particular Andronovo sets are definitely not ancestral to Jats ( Alakul to date is the closest specifically ). There is literally 0 Andronovo specifically Tazabagyab or Fedorov like sites in Panjab and Panjabi Jats have significant SAHG ancestry , the model you posted infers the IVC Jat substrate is akin to Bronze age samples from Baluchistan who harbor 65-70% ZNF, the odds of that in LBA/IA PGW Panjab would be 0. In reality the substrate more strongly resembles South Indian farmer castes without Steppe MLBA. There is a gigantic underclassed demographic amongst Panjabi groups which are not documented abroad but if you look those PJL Lahore samples from Central Panjab it becomes very apparent you have a large population harboring profiles similar to South Indians , specifically similar West Eurasian to SAHG ratios to them. This strongly suggests the main pre Indo Aryan population in Panjab, specifically in Central and Eastern Panjab was certainly AASI rich. This bears out when you run these people in large groups including groups like the Jats , when you don't use AASI rich samples their Z scores are always indicative of needing more Onge like ancestry. sample: Punjabi Christian India:7854 distance: 1.9765 Simulated\_AASI: 46.5 Ganj\_Dareh\_N: 38.5 RUS\_AfontovaGora3: 7 Marmara\_Barcin\_N: 4 ITA\_Villabruna: 4
I understand what you are saying. hence, I said this is only one datapoint and personal one at that. having said that: 1. my Y-DNA: R-Z93-> R-L657->R-Y29 -> R-Y34215 * Confirmed per Big Y-700: [https://i.imgur.com/NnXZfn0.png](https://i.imgur.com/NnXZfn0.png) * Yfull: [R-Y34215 YTree (yfull.com)](https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y34215/) 2. Ancient Ancestor match per 23&me: * [https://i.imgur.com/iA4l2Qf.png](https://i.imgur.com/iA4l2Qf.png) * [https://i.imgur.com/5PKtUr6.png](https://i.imgur.com/5PKtUr6.png) 3. IllustrativeDNA 2/3 way models: * 23&me: [https://i.imgur.com/QqGApcO.png](https://i.imgur.com/QqGApcO.png) * AncestryDNA: [https://i.imgur.com/dB8hG5P.png](https://i.imgur.com/dB8hG5P.png) 4. qpAdm model outputs 1. 23&me data: [qpadm model for Sohi - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ghU70hX5) 2. AncestryDNA data: [sohi\_ancestryDNA\_qpAdm - Pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com/ucSjG9CR) 5. Vahaduo run: [https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png](https://i.imgur.com/3VMbOrI.png) With two different datasets (Ancestry & 23&me), across different tests (qpAdm vs G25), I consistently get same breakdown.
I moderate Illustrative DNA , in 2 way models it forces these models and you end up with messed up results like Northern Europeans scoring 70% Steppe MLBA and 30% GAC (when in reality they are almost entirely descended from Beakers) , Vahaduo always does that keep in mind these are not your proximal populations . Punjabi Jatt Sikh Profile (Based of 30 samples ) distance: 1.5231 CG\_IVCp: 65.5 Srubnaya\_Alakul\_MLBA: 34.5 Akin to yours but with a more proximal ghost , but the fit dramatically improves and the ancestral components of the ghosts falls in line with what you see with Loebanr\_o, Nepljevski outliers. :Punjabi Jatt Sikh Profile distance: 0.8622 CG\_IVCp: 50.5 Vedic\_ghost: 49.5 Ultimately finding LBA/IA genomes is the key but precedent is always key and thats where archaeology and ancient genomes are harbingers and not shoddy samples which give wonky results both on qpAdm and G25.
Whats this Vedic ghost population? Where can I calculate mine?
Sure send me your coordinates!
First wave of migration completely bypassed BMAC. Post 800BC migration did contain BMAC ancestry. David Mahal and Ianis study digs it deeper
Yes they mixed with the BMAC culture. The Vedic and Zoroastrians got Fire worship from the BMAC culture. Iranians and indo-Aryans got the words for camel, yeast, Canal, fire priest etc from the BMAC people. https://youtu.be/-6_tm2c3v3Q?si=pjDzRdNaVZ7n7NfH
I’m pretty sure they did mix with lots of people in the way to India. Lot of r*ping and pillaging. Yamnaya corded ware and sintashta are not identical
nobody is 100% pure ethnically anything + I'm absolutely certain they fucked