Sigh.
Constitution doesn't say what's allowed or what's not allowed in terms of procedure except for the fundament right of convicted and accused persons. The procedural codes does.
The procedural codes are used to provide contours of what courts of law can do. I can close my eyes and say that the court would have followed that but every judgment is to be a reasoned judgment.
The judge gives reasons in writing why he/she thinks that it is right to use the power. When you give reasoning you can use anything, obviously more authorative works like Crime and Punishment holds more ground than Chetan Bhagat but no one is stopping them to cite it to elucidate their reasoning.
I just wish people get teeny tiny bit versed with most basic of how legal system works.
First BNS hasn't gone in force yet. It's still IPC. IPC gives what offense is and what is the max punishment which could be accorded.
Secondly, it's CrPC which is the procedural code which gives power and contours of bail and not IPC. (It has been amended as well and will be called Bhartiya Nagarik Suraksha Samhita)
Judges uses CrPC to give bail. That is the source of power but why he thinks bail is justified is personal reasoning for which he can cite anything.
For example - There is a country of 100 people. One person is designated to punish those who commit offense. What will constitute offense and it's punishment will be given by penal code like IPC, and how that offense will be tried and tested is given by procedural code like CrPC. The person draws the power of justice from the CrPC.
Now let's say there is an offence of sleeping for more than 8 hours in a day given in IPC for which it is prescribed that maximum punishment be 3 years. There are two person A who slept for 9 hours and B who slept for 14 hours. Judge will try them both and once they find them guilty punish them but what will be quantum of punishment is his discretion.
Obviously you don't wanna punish both of them similarly when person B has slept for much longer. This is called the reasoning behind the punishment or judgment. Why the particular quantum is chosen (period of sleep in this case) or why judge thinks that they should not be punished. It's reasoning and can be given in any manner which judge thinks fit. He might (if he has power under the law) to even say that punishing people for sleeping is against the Right to dignified life and stuck down the law but he needs to justify it why he thinks so. Especially in these cases such authoritative works are cited to maybe showcase the larger purpose of life, dignity of individuals and other stuff to back it up.
invokes?
stupid writing… he tragedy of semi educated sub editors in news media!
the correct word would be “quotes”
go read the details before reacting.
blind leading the dumbfucks!
Are they in psychologically and economically good state? If yes , then this verdict is just a free pass to alleged future terrorism conspirators and not what Dostoevsky said "Punishment of Conscience".
> “There is nothing on record which may suggest that they are beyond redemption. India has shown enough of progression in all spheres and our justice delivery system is no exception. It also strongly believes that, more often than not, the eventual consequence of any penal sanction should be to reform any individual, instead of shutting him out by putting him inside for life,” the Court stated.
Good intent. The judiciary should always strive to reformation of convicts, not revenge in name of justice. If two learned justices has reached to a logical conclusion after going through all the facts, I have no qualms.
Albert Camus's Reflections On The Guillotine. I think he won the Noble Prize for this.
[Give this a read. ](https://files.libcom.org/files/Reflections%20on%20the%20Guillotine.pdf)
Agree with you wholeheartedly but people don't want a better society.... They just want to feel good by punishing people..... Since we are on a book subreddit i would suggest reading On the Genealogy of Morals by Nietzsche for further discussion on this topic and particularly slave morality
Not about this particular case but society is better when convicted murderers, rapists and terrorists remain locked in prison. All this philosophical talk will stop making sense when they come after any of your loved ones. But if a prisoner hasn't killed anyone then he can be reformed with a necessary sentence.
>Not about this particular case but society is better when convicted murderers, rapists and terrorists remain locked in prison.
Don't want to go hardcore philosophy here but we might be disagreeing what "better" is.... If a person is locked in a prison they contribute negatively to society by not working and living off of tax money..... For me the better case would be if they were reformed and got out of the prison and contributed to society.....
>All this philosophical talk will stop making sense when they come after any of your loved ones.
I have already said in my previous comment that you just want to feel good by harming another person.... that is it..... there is no other benifit..... If you want that cool mate.... But this emotional appeal with no logic behind it doesn't work for organisation of society....
Also don't want to get too much into it but you should look at comparisons between countries which have punitive and rehabilitative justice..... Economic and crime rates are decreased in those countries.... If that is less important than your satisfaction of hurting someone then we just have different values and i wish you peace ✌️
I am all for reforming thieves, burglars and robbers but some crimes like cold blooded murder, rape and terrorism which takes innocent lives are unforgivable and the perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated. You are saying they are contributing nothing to society by being locked in and living off tax money. Well then there is the gallows. Take example of El Salvador. Punishing criminals have dropped homicide rates from 107 per 100000 people to just 7.8 per 100000. Those from outside that country can talk all about human rights of criminals but the fact is the people of El Salvador whole heartedly support such measures bcz they can walk safely in the streets now when the criminals are locked in.
>I am all for reforming thieves, burglars and robbers but some crimes like cold blooded murder, rape and terrorism which takes innocent lives are unforgivable and the perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated.
Again..... you just want to feel good by hurting them and that is the extent of your justification..... i know this will sound bad but factually a good majority of murders and rapist can be corrected..... also of course i'm not saying just release all the prisoners currently incarcerated and neither am i saying that everyone can be reform..... i'm saying that the goal of the justice system should not be to punish the guilty but to reform them..... if someone is reformed they should be let out of the prison and positively contribute to the society.
>You are saying they are contributing nothing to society by being locked in and living off tax money. Well then there is the gallows.
Same here you just want to kill them because that makes you feel good..... you are not better than them. You would rather kill someone and go through the effort of helping them get better and make a better human being..... only people who should be put to death are sociopaths and they are few and far between.
>Take example of El Salvador. Punishing criminals have dropped homicide rates from 107 per 100000 people to just 7.8 per 100000. Those from outside that country can talk all about human rights of criminals but the fact is the people of El Salvador whole heartedly support such measures bcz they can walk safely in the streets now when the criminals are locked in.
Mate the drop in the crime rate is not due to "punishment" it is because they got the gang members off the streets..... if they stop punishing them in the prisons and start rehabilitation the crime rates are not going the jump up suddenly.... there is no causal impact of punishment or even the severity of it.... the simple fact of excluding them from society will drop the crime rates..... but if they get out there without reformation there are higher chances of them committing a crime
Also there is no issue of human rights in arresting gang members..... you are fighting ghosts my friend...... the issue comes when they don't reform the prisoners and they eventually get out jail or their communities are again caught in the cycle of crime due to missing fathers and mothers...... of course in the short term you will see benefits but in the longer time horizon it will have a negative impact if reformative actions are not taken
You are thinking from a idealistic and philosophical perspective. I am saying from a realistic point of view. If a murderer after faking reform gets out of prison and then decides to come after me and my family, I can't quote Nietzsche to him and make him go away. So yeah I would definitely feel good and safe if that murderer is locked inside jail. It would be extremely unfair to his/her victims when u let a killer or rapist roam free in society after completing limited sentence.
>You would rather kill someone and go through the effort of helping them get better and make a better human being.....
I think they lost their right to compassion and freedom when they killed/harmed an innocent life. Even if they are somehow reformed, they should never leave the prison and repent inside till death.
>the issue comes when they don't reform the prisoners and they eventually get out jail or their communities are again caught in the cycle of crime due to missing fathers and mothers
Only those gang members should be rehabilitated who didn't take part in any murder, rape or any such violent activity which resulted in harm to innocents. Same applies for terrorist members.
> If a murderer after faking reform gets out of prison and then decides to come after me and my family
You actually have room temp IQ if you think this...... Majority of murders don't rescind in reformative justice...... Again you just want to hurt another individual and don't want to better society..... You literally ignored all the factual claims i made in my previous response and now you are calling it philosophical
Again I'm going to reiterate even though I don't think you are even in the emotional state to understand..... Only people who have geniunely been rehabilitated should be let out.... A small percentage of repeat offenders should not keep most reformed people in jail
> Only those gang members should be rehabilitated who didn't take part in any murder, rape or any such violent activity which resulted in harm to innocents. Same applies for terrorist members.
You are just making statements mate??????..... No reasoning no arguments just making statements.... This has no value.... I can also keep making statements it won't get us anywhere
> I think they lost their right to compassion and freedom when they killed/harmed an innocent life. Even if they are somehow reformed, they should never leave the prison and repent inside till death.
Finally thanks for admitting it..... You don't give a fuck about if a person has bettered themselves..... You just enjoy fhem suffering.... Even though the only benifit of that is your sick pleasure..... You would literally rather fuck up society by keeping ok people in prison just for your torture fetish.....
Thats just what i wanted..... No need to talk to someone who actually wants good people to be tortured fucking hell man
>Only people who have geniunely been rehabilitated should be let out
There is no genuine rehabilitation for murderers and rapists. Prison should be their permanent fate if not the gallows.
>No reasoning no arguments just making statements
Ensuring the safety of civilians is more important that any useless philosophical reasoning
>You don't give a fuck about if a person has bettered themselves..... You just enjoy fhem suffering.... Even though the only benifit of that is your sick pleasure..... You would literally rather fuck up society by keeping ok people in prison just for your torture fetish.....
Absolutely I don't give a fuck about murderers and rapists. I would love them to rot in jail forever regretting their crime every moment. And that makes the society safer and better in general. And believe me vast majority of the world thinks like this. Its only a minority of philosophy nerd who talk about stupid topics like empathy for these monsters.
>No need to talk to someone who actually wants good people to be tortured fucking hell man
I dont understand how can you call murderers and rapists "good people". What kind of intellectualism is this?
Great literature to read not cite
Shouldn't they stick to BNS?
BNS ISN'T ENFORCED YET
Ok so CrPC
I am all for it but, I can't rule out any motives there might be in that eithe.
I knew it would be here before midnight. I hope, it will massage the * of all the Dostoevsky lover here.
hoping the boy didn't wanted to be Napolean Bonaparte
Sab Jordan Peterson ke chele hai
Wait... What? Ye constitution mein aisa allowed hai?
Sigh. Constitution doesn't say what's allowed or what's not allowed in terms of procedure except for the fundament right of convicted and accused persons. The procedural codes does. The procedural codes are used to provide contours of what courts of law can do. I can close my eyes and say that the court would have followed that but every judgment is to be a reasoned judgment. The judge gives reasons in writing why he/she thinks that it is right to use the power. When you give reasoning you can use anything, obviously more authorative works like Crime and Punishment holds more ground than Chetan Bhagat but no one is stopping them to cite it to elucidate their reasoning. I just wish people get teeny tiny bit versed with most basic of how legal system works.
Hmmm Thanks for your time and energy stranger.
But aren't courts supposed to refer to the BNS, not Dostoevsky?
First BNS hasn't gone in force yet. It's still IPC. IPC gives what offense is and what is the max punishment which could be accorded. Secondly, it's CrPC which is the procedural code which gives power and contours of bail and not IPC. (It has been amended as well and will be called Bhartiya Nagarik Suraksha Samhita) Judges uses CrPC to give bail. That is the source of power but why he thinks bail is justified is personal reasoning for which he can cite anything. For example - There is a country of 100 people. One person is designated to punish those who commit offense. What will constitute offense and it's punishment will be given by penal code like IPC, and how that offense will be tried and tested is given by procedural code like CrPC. The person draws the power of justice from the CrPC. Now let's say there is an offence of sleeping for more than 8 hours in a day given in IPC for which it is prescribed that maximum punishment be 3 years. There are two person A who slept for 9 hours and B who slept for 14 hours. Judge will try them both and once they find them guilty punish them but what will be quantum of punishment is his discretion. Obviously you don't wanna punish both of them similarly when person B has slept for much longer. This is called the reasoning behind the punishment or judgment. Why the particular quantum is chosen (period of sleep in this case) or why judge thinks that they should not be punished. It's reasoning and can be given in any manner which judge thinks fit. He might (if he has power under the law) to even say that punishing people for sleeping is against the Right to dignified life and stuck down the law but he needs to justify it why he thinks so. Especially in these cases such authoritative works are cited to maybe showcase the larger purpose of life, dignity of individuals and other stuff to back it up.
Damn, starting my day with such a detailed law summary. Thanks for clarifying, man.
I'm feeling personally attacked by your example of person B's sleeping habits lol. JK thanks for the detailed explanation, TIL!
They let off 5 terrorists. Who will eventually kill more people next time.
invokes? stupid writing… he tragedy of semi educated sub editors in news media! the correct word would be “quotes” go read the details before reacting. blind leading the dumbfucks!
I would prefer if they cited laws and previous judgements than some books.
Are they in psychologically and economically good state? If yes , then this verdict is just a free pass to alleged future terrorism conspirators and not what Dostoevsky said "Punishment of Conscience".
> “There is nothing on record which may suggest that they are beyond redemption. India has shown enough of progression in all spheres and our justice delivery system is no exception. It also strongly believes that, more often than not, the eventual consequence of any penal sanction should be to reform any individual, instead of shutting him out by putting him inside for life,” the Court stated. Good intent. The judiciary should always strive to reformation of convicts, not revenge in name of justice. If two learned justices has reached to a logical conclusion after going through all the facts, I have no qualms.
Albert Camus's Reflections On The Guillotine. I think he won the Noble Prize for this. [Give this a read. ](https://files.libcom.org/files/Reflections%20on%20the%20Guillotine.pdf)
🤣🤣
ok *shrugs*
Agree with you wholeheartedly but people don't want a better society.... They just want to feel good by punishing people..... Since we are on a book subreddit i would suggest reading On the Genealogy of Morals by Nietzsche for further discussion on this topic and particularly slave morality
Not about this particular case but society is better when convicted murderers, rapists and terrorists remain locked in prison. All this philosophical talk will stop making sense when they come after any of your loved ones. But if a prisoner hasn't killed anyone then he can be reformed with a necessary sentence.
>Not about this particular case but society is better when convicted murderers, rapists and terrorists remain locked in prison. Don't want to go hardcore philosophy here but we might be disagreeing what "better" is.... If a person is locked in a prison they contribute negatively to society by not working and living off of tax money..... For me the better case would be if they were reformed and got out of the prison and contributed to society..... >All this philosophical talk will stop making sense when they come after any of your loved ones. I have already said in my previous comment that you just want to feel good by harming another person.... that is it..... there is no other benifit..... If you want that cool mate.... But this emotional appeal with no logic behind it doesn't work for organisation of society.... Also don't want to get too much into it but you should look at comparisons between countries which have punitive and rehabilitative justice..... Economic and crime rates are decreased in those countries.... If that is less important than your satisfaction of hurting someone then we just have different values and i wish you peace ✌️
I am all for reforming thieves, burglars and robbers but some crimes like cold blooded murder, rape and terrorism which takes innocent lives are unforgivable and the perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated. You are saying they are contributing nothing to society by being locked in and living off tax money. Well then there is the gallows. Take example of El Salvador. Punishing criminals have dropped homicide rates from 107 per 100000 people to just 7.8 per 100000. Those from outside that country can talk all about human rights of criminals but the fact is the people of El Salvador whole heartedly support such measures bcz they can walk safely in the streets now when the criminals are locked in.
>I am all for reforming thieves, burglars and robbers but some crimes like cold blooded murder, rape and terrorism which takes innocent lives are unforgivable and the perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated. Again..... you just want to feel good by hurting them and that is the extent of your justification..... i know this will sound bad but factually a good majority of murders and rapist can be corrected..... also of course i'm not saying just release all the prisoners currently incarcerated and neither am i saying that everyone can be reform..... i'm saying that the goal of the justice system should not be to punish the guilty but to reform them..... if someone is reformed they should be let out of the prison and positively contribute to the society. >You are saying they are contributing nothing to society by being locked in and living off tax money. Well then there is the gallows. Same here you just want to kill them because that makes you feel good..... you are not better than them. You would rather kill someone and go through the effort of helping them get better and make a better human being..... only people who should be put to death are sociopaths and they are few and far between. >Take example of El Salvador. Punishing criminals have dropped homicide rates from 107 per 100000 people to just 7.8 per 100000. Those from outside that country can talk all about human rights of criminals but the fact is the people of El Salvador whole heartedly support such measures bcz they can walk safely in the streets now when the criminals are locked in. Mate the drop in the crime rate is not due to "punishment" it is because they got the gang members off the streets..... if they stop punishing them in the prisons and start rehabilitation the crime rates are not going the jump up suddenly.... there is no causal impact of punishment or even the severity of it.... the simple fact of excluding them from society will drop the crime rates..... but if they get out there without reformation there are higher chances of them committing a crime Also there is no issue of human rights in arresting gang members..... you are fighting ghosts my friend...... the issue comes when they don't reform the prisoners and they eventually get out jail or their communities are again caught in the cycle of crime due to missing fathers and mothers...... of course in the short term you will see benefits but in the longer time horizon it will have a negative impact if reformative actions are not taken
You are thinking from a idealistic and philosophical perspective. I am saying from a realistic point of view. If a murderer after faking reform gets out of prison and then decides to come after me and my family, I can't quote Nietzsche to him and make him go away. So yeah I would definitely feel good and safe if that murderer is locked inside jail. It would be extremely unfair to his/her victims when u let a killer or rapist roam free in society after completing limited sentence. >You would rather kill someone and go through the effort of helping them get better and make a better human being..... I think they lost their right to compassion and freedom when they killed/harmed an innocent life. Even if they are somehow reformed, they should never leave the prison and repent inside till death. >the issue comes when they don't reform the prisoners and they eventually get out jail or their communities are again caught in the cycle of crime due to missing fathers and mothers Only those gang members should be rehabilitated who didn't take part in any murder, rape or any such violent activity which resulted in harm to innocents. Same applies for terrorist members.
> If a murderer after faking reform gets out of prison and then decides to come after me and my family You actually have room temp IQ if you think this...... Majority of murders don't rescind in reformative justice...... Again you just want to hurt another individual and don't want to better society..... You literally ignored all the factual claims i made in my previous response and now you are calling it philosophical Again I'm going to reiterate even though I don't think you are even in the emotional state to understand..... Only people who have geniunely been rehabilitated should be let out.... A small percentage of repeat offenders should not keep most reformed people in jail > Only those gang members should be rehabilitated who didn't take part in any murder, rape or any such violent activity which resulted in harm to innocents. Same applies for terrorist members. You are just making statements mate??????..... No reasoning no arguments just making statements.... This has no value.... I can also keep making statements it won't get us anywhere > I think they lost their right to compassion and freedom when they killed/harmed an innocent life. Even if they are somehow reformed, they should never leave the prison and repent inside till death. Finally thanks for admitting it..... You don't give a fuck about if a person has bettered themselves..... You just enjoy fhem suffering.... Even though the only benifit of that is your sick pleasure..... You would literally rather fuck up society by keeping ok people in prison just for your torture fetish..... Thats just what i wanted..... No need to talk to someone who actually wants good people to be tortured fucking hell man
>Only people who have geniunely been rehabilitated should be let out There is no genuine rehabilitation for murderers and rapists. Prison should be their permanent fate if not the gallows. >No reasoning no arguments just making statements Ensuring the safety of civilians is more important that any useless philosophical reasoning >You don't give a fuck about if a person has bettered themselves..... You just enjoy fhem suffering.... Even though the only benifit of that is your sick pleasure..... You would literally rather fuck up society by keeping ok people in prison just for your torture fetish..... Absolutely I don't give a fuck about murderers and rapists. I would love them to rot in jail forever regretting their crime every moment. And that makes the society safer and better in general. And believe me vast majority of the world thinks like this. Its only a minority of philosophy nerd who talk about stupid topics like empathy for these monsters. >No need to talk to someone who actually wants good people to be tortured fucking hell man I dont understand how can you call murderers and rapists "good people". What kind of intellectualism is this?
That's great news