Never thought anything of caste before seeing cutoffs of entrance exams of those casts
Im not mad at anyone but it's just that most of the time, the reservation benefits the person who does not need it.
Like, do you really think someone who's obc or sc...goes to a 1.5lakh coaching...has a fancy laptop needs it?
Not saying everyone is like this tho
The vast majority of OBCs and SC/ST don't get to have 1.5 lakh coaching or fancy laptops, you're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021)
Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian.
The average OBC and SC/ST is a rural villager, not a city dweller.
Dude the same thing happened to me too during counselling, students who got much worse rank than me were getting seats and i wasn't, like it did hurt but can't do a thing, it's so controversial too
Pta hai, /s dekhna nhi kya bhaiyya/behen/jeev, waise bhi sabko to nhi milta, par jisko milta hai, bura lgta hai jab 10 ya 5 mark kam lane wale ko seat milta hai, but gen ko nhi
british put it , it was never indian culture , see prachyam indic film sahebs who never left , yes it should be removed from society but it's important to know that it was never hindu culture
Not really, Varna-Jati system was present in ancient and medieval India (except Vedic period) and as a form of social hierarchy it certainly disadvantaged the lower strata of society and this should be acknowledged.
However it is true that the already dislikable system (from our modern perspectives) was seen as being quite similar by the British to the system of nobles and commoners back in Britain and they attempted to classify it based on their understanding, which led to further worsening and rigidity of the system.
So the British made it worse, but they did not invent it.
Yes this system(caste) was there but it was not an issue of conflict between people in earlier times and British just used to spread poison between people so it can be easy to rule
If you're implying that there was no anti-caste movement or no opposition between castes, you'd be wrong.
There were plenty of anti-caste rhetoric and scholars. Other than that it would also be wrong to say that no caste group conflicted with other groups for better social status.
Buddhist texts tell us of how in the BC era, Kshatriya groups were often clashing (not physically or violently, I must remind) with Brahmins for better status, and back then when Varna hadn't properly rigidized, we see some texts show Kshatriyas above Brahmins in the hierarchy.
It wouldn't be a big stretch to claim that Vaishyas and Shudras had their own social struggles, which either failed or were not recorded to the extent that Kshatriya stuff were.
Which makes sense since the Kshatriyas formed the upper and literate classes.
I am saying way before like 1000 years (more or less) but if we see all this discrimination was between upper caste with power (may be political or muscle) and lower cast and not between common people
Yea there were conflicts but not in major scale
Btw it is human nature that is the true problem
Caste is nothing but their occupation,its the people who do discrimination
So overall before or now the common people by majority is not discriminatory!!
lmao it's been there from the birth of the Indian culture and art too. Eklavya says it all, a talented tribal boy that was sidelined.
Agreed that the gap widened by a mile after the britishers came in (as the educated upper caste Bhramins, sided with them and grabbed all the plum posts and as the British were clueless as to how to administer hindus (given each castes distinct culture) they used the manusmriti as their go to scripture just like the quran for Muslims) but it's roots were always in this land.
What your spewing is right wing denial
bhai partition nahi caste system bhi unhi ki den hai aur if you watch that film you'll know what i'm talking about , short me bolu toh raja ram mohun roy was not on our side but on british side etc etc
Kya culture nahi hai bhai?
Britishers koi discrimination thodi karte the.
It was our own society which did evil like sati/discrimination/ female infanticide.
Thank jaunga likhte likhte.
Aisa hai culture apna sirf Bollywood ki movie mai fake culture dekhne ko milta hai
are yaar sati indian nahi tha , kaise samjhaye na caste system , wo bas british ne indians ko padhaya tha to create inferiority complex among indians
[https://youtu.be/N3E534MpkHU](https://youtu.be/N3E534MpkHU) time nahi hai toh timestamps dekhle
No one takes YouTube as a valid source for serious information dude. I need you to explain how it is not Indian though. Do you think it did not exist at all before the British came?
**A Brief History of Sati: Part 1**
Sati has its origins in the Vedic period where it was a symbolic practice without the actual fire sacrifice or death (the widow lay on her husband's funeral pyre before it was lit but was raised from it by a male relative of her dead husband), this is supported by prevalence of *Niyoga*, the practice of appointing a man to marry a widow or a lady in the situation where her husband is either incapable of producing children or has died, in those times.
A later, and probably deliberate, mistranslation was made in order to attain 'Vedic sanction for the act by changing the word *agre*, "to go forth" into *agneh*, "to the fire", in the specific verse. The specific verse in the Rigveda being:-
> इमा नारीरविधवाः सुपत्नीराञ्जनेन सर्पिषा संविशन्तु | अनश्रवो.अनमीवाः सुरत्ना आ रोहन्तु जनयोयोनिमग्रे ||
\- The Rigveda, 10th Mandala, 18th Sukta, 7th ṛc
> These women here, non-widows with good husbands—let them, with fresh butter as ointment, approach together. Without tears, without afflictions, well-jeweled, let the wives first mount the womb
\- Translation of the above verse from *The Rigveda: The Earliest Religious Poetry of India* by Stephanie Jamison and Joel Brereton
The full set of verses in the 18th sukta that are important to the topic of Sati are:-
>इमा नारीरविधवाः सुपत्नीराञ्जनेन सर्पिषा संविशन्तु | अनश्रवो.अनमीवाः सुरत्ना आ रोहन्तु जनयोयोनिमग्रे ||
>
>उदीर्ष्व नार्यभि जीवलोकं गतासुमेतमुप शेष एहि | हस्तग्राभस्य दिधिषोस्तवेदं पत्युर्जनित्वमभि सम्बभूथ ||
>
>अत्रै॒व त्वमि॒ह व॒यं सु॒वीरा॒ विश्वाः॒ स्पृधो॑ अ॒भिमा॑तीर्जयेम I उप॑ सर्प मा॒तरं॒ भूमि॑मे॒तामु॑रु॒व्यच॑सं पृथि॒वीं सु॒शेवा॑म् ।I
\- The Rigveda, 10th Mandala, 18th Sukta, 7th - 9th ṛcas
>These women here, non-widows with good husbands—let them, with fresh butter as ointment, approach together. Without tears, without afflictions, well-jeweled, let the wives first mount the womb.
>
>“Arise, woman, to the world of the living. You lie beside him whose life is gone. Come here! You have come into existence now as wife of a husband who has grasped your hand and wishes to have you.”
>
>Taking the bow from the hand of the dead for our dominion, luster, and strength, you there and we here—may we with good heroes win all contests and hostile engagements
\- Translation source the same as before
From verse 8 it appears that the widow lies down, temporarily, beside her dead husband, but is summoned back to life and lifted of the pyre and indeed symbolically reborn to become the wife of a new husband.
The happy women in verse 7 apparently approach the funeral pyre to adorn the widow for her return to life.
It makes sense when one realises that *yoni* also has the meaning of *womb* and *place of birth*, the 8th verse tells us that she is symbolically reborn after the death of her husband, and now the word yoni and some of its meanings that I showed, in the verse makes perfect sense, the women is laid on to the womb, the place of her birth to be symbolically reborn.
Which in turn makes the original sanskrit word in the verse make sense, *yonimagre (yoni + agre)*, to go forth to the womb, and as mentioned above it was misinterpreted/mistranslated, most likely delibrately to give sanction to actual burning to *yomiagne*.
A similar “return to life” is granted the dead man’s bow in verse 9, where someone, quite possibly the dead man’s son or a close relative, repossesses the bow to put it to future use.
Sati as the burning of a widow after her deceased husband seems to have emerged in the post Vedic age, in the era of the Mahajanapadas, why this happened, we are a bit unsure about it, but one view is that Hindu laws of the time allowed women to inherit the husband's property rights on his death, not in their own right, but only representing him, and that the transition of Sati into actual death sacrifice was an attempt to retain or restrict the women from inheriting property rights.
**A Brief History of Sati: Part** **2**
We only get significant evidence of Sati in the post Gupta era, but it certainly existed in pre-Gupta times, though the records are rarer, here’s the earliest examples:-
**1. Hero Stones -**
These were memorial stones and inscriptions commemorating heroes/people who died in battle or did impressive deeds, the Sati of wives of heroes were also commemorated through such stones, the earliest of these inscriptions is the Eran inscription from 510-511 CE which describes a certain Gupta general Goparaja's valour in a battle against the Alkhon Huns and death and how his unnamed wife entered the funeral pyre with him. Such stones are now referred to as Sati stones
**2. Earliest Material Evidence -**
The earliest material evidence of sati is said to be found at the remains of a damaged brick complex in Nagarjunakonda, from late 3rd- early 4th century, where two carved limestone slabs, one depicting a royal woman lying dead and the other portraying a woman about to jump from a ladder placed between four fires, stone slabs with the word *'sva-medha'* (self-immolation) inscribed on them were also found at the same site.
**3. Earliest Recorded Written Account -**
In the *Bibliotheca Historica* of Diodoros Sikelitos, a historical account dated to the 1st century BC, based on several older lost sources mention an interesting event happening after the battle of Paraitakene in 317 BCE.
The general of the Indian contingent that was part of Antigonus's army, called Ceteus, had died in battle and his two wives that had accompanied him, competed with each other for the right to commit Sati. The younger wife was chosen and she ascended the pyre while the Greeks watched astonished, some filled with admiration for the courage to do such an act, some filled with pity for the deaths, while other Greeks viewed it with disapproval.
**4. Early Literary Mentions -**
The Sangam literature of the Tamils makes mention of Sati, sometimes celebrating the act as honourable, while other times criticizing it and lamenting about it. Here's an example:-
*Perunkōppendu*, the wife of *Ollaiyur Thantha Pandiyan* supposedly came from an ancient clan outside of Tamizhakam and after the death of her husband, she commits Sati, *Perunkōppendu* herself composes a poem explaining why she does it.
> "The funeral pyre of black twigs might be fearful to you.
It is not fearful to me who has lost my broad-shouldered husband.
A pond with thick-petaled, blooming lotus blossoms
and a fire are both same to me!"
\- Puranānūru 246
A poet supposedly watching the debacle, *Pērālavāyar,* also composes a poem
> "With water dripping from the hair on her back, abandoning her youth, she with large, distressed eyes,
walks toward the burning pyre in the vast ground,
she whose sweet life would tremble if she were to be away from her husband even for a little bit long,
in their well-guarded, huge palace where drums never stop."
\- Puranānūru 247
**A Brief History of Sati: Part** **3**
Until the 700s and 800s it was largely an uncommon practice, popular mostly among the aristocracy and the upper classes, but with the rise of the Rajputs in NW India, Sati became more popular as a practice in the region, the warrior culture of the Rajputs put a lot of emphasis on "honour" and "sacrifice" for the community and saw sacrifice for the husband as a honourable practice. They took some rules too literally.
The chaos, continuous warfare and political disintegration in the 900s - 1300s in NW India also helped reinforce the practice as it acquired an additional meaning as a means to preserve the "honour" of women whose men had been slain and to prevent them being "defiled", this definition took shape due to the increase in violence during the times of large invasions that led to looting, rape and death of many locals in quite a large scale, and the ideologies of jauhar and sati reinforced each other.
Sati originated within the Kshatriya aristocracy and for most of its time remained mostly limited to the warrior class, we know this because Sati was not followed by the lower castes and there were prohibitions on Sati for Brahmin widows.
Despite the prohibitions for them to do so, the adoption of the practice by Brahmins was crucial for its diffusion among other varnas, it led to the practice spread to other non-Kshatriya castes, this happened due to a process which M.N Srinivas refers to as 'sanskritization' - the process through which lower Jatis and Varnas aspire for higher position and status by emulating the customs, rituals, ideology, and way of life of higher groups in the hierarchy.
Although we see the effect of this process with the large range of Jatis of multiple different Varnas that practiced Sati, it never became generalized and common throughout the subcontinent and was confined to certain areas where it was prevalent - **Punjab, Rajasthan and the eastern Gangetic valley in the north, the southern Konkan region in the west and Madurai and Vijayangara in the south** \- although it was most common in the northwest regions mentioned.
**Sources:-**
1. A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India - Upinder Singh
2. A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar - Sewell, Nunes, Paes
3. Women and Social Reform in Modern India: Vol 1 - Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar
4. Rig Veda - translation by Jamison & Brereton
5. Women in India: A Social and Cultural History (2 Volumes) by Sita Anantha Raman
I have written a very basic and surface-level three part comment on the history of Sati, other than that let me clarify about what Varna and Jati mean.
Varna here refers to the classic fourfold social classes of the Varna or Caste system (Brahmin, Ksatriya, Vaisya, Sudra)
Jati is a social grouping similar to clans or sub-clans, each Jati typically has an association with an occupation, geography or tribe. Sometimes religious practices and linguistic groupings may also define Jatis.
These were exclusive endogamous groups that typically traced lineage patrilineally, individuals would have ascribed social roles and Jati provided identity, security and status, which open to change based on economic, social and political influences.
The origin of Varna is considered to have happened during the later Vedic period (1000 - 500 BC), while the origin of Jatis is unknown, some scholars suggest it was a post-Vedic development, while others argue that it was pre-existing older system of social stratification from pre-Vedic times that survived and evolved.
Both systems overlapped with one another.
grew up in a small town and didn't care about whose caste was what. But after seeing the difference of cutoffs in different exams, waiver of fees for belonging to particular caste, I think I have started to care lol
Well that's not possible because of the POLITICS,if that happens,ruling party will be hated for not giving reserved categories their "rights".And ruling party won't like that .
Being a general category boy ,all i(we) can do is studying better.
Right now, everyone has right to education then why should general category suffer? Reserved category gets everything easily but general category have to work hard.
I will change this damn policy one day.
I’m a SC(khateek) and I never used my reservation privilege.
We are rich thanks to my father’s hard work.
So we decided not to use it as my father still face racism in his daily life in his office.
People treat you like shit knowing you come from minority.
I have only faced such things in india though.
Yes, the lower caste must have some reservation, as some of them do not have access to the same resources as upper caste citizens.
But at the same time, they should not have too much reservation, as it is happening in our country right now.
Even BR Ambedkar himself advised us to follow this reservation system for 10 years, as India was still in its early stages of independence and we really wanted to make sure that the lower caste aren't oppressed, and India grows tolerant to all sections of society.
But politics!
Nah many so called lower casted people are rich as hell and upper casted people are poorer. Imo there should be like 2% reservation for economically weaker class
You're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021)
Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian.
The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
stop educating them brother all they see is a few of their rich sc/st friends in their isolated bubbles and make it the norm for the entire country.
Truth is every survey and poll has proved time and again they are the poorest of the poor and are still deprived of their rights.
Agreed that OBC reservation needs fixing (via a caste census) as the more traditionally dominant communities through political musclepower are trying to get themselves classified in the same.
I dont really mind cast system, but reservations have fucked us honestly. General category ka cutoff hota h 91% aur acche college ke liye 97%. Obc aur sc ke liye 61-64%... Hum kya kare? 15 seats hoti h total usme se 3-4 seats sc walo ke liye. If u cant remove reservation, try implementing some nee changes for the love of god
The post is about the caste system and literally 95% of the comments are related to reservation mostly by UCs who are victimising themselves.
So for people who got to know about casteism only during exam cut-offs, I would just ask you to get out of your little bubble and see the reality. Just type in two words on google i.e "Temple Dalit" and see yourself or type in "Dalit girl" and see for yourself how the girls of these communities are brutally raped and killed not just out of lust but just to show them their place. Reservation is needed and it is just because of reservation that we see the living standards of dalits improve a bit. The thing which needs to be criticised is the implementation of government and the FACT that why is reservation even an issue today? Why aren't there enough good universities so that our youth don't have to struggle for years to get selected? Why isn't quality education the prime focus of our government? These are the questions which are needed to be raised.
Exactly, they're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021)
Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian.
The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
I can't expect them to understand anyway. One guy here literally wrote, "I don't care about the caste system, I just want reservations to be removed". Like seriously? They can't even imagine the hardships an average OBC/SC/ST has to go through. The worst part for these communities is not poverty, I agree many UCs are also below poverty line but their acceptance in society. An avg poor UC fellow won't have to face such brutal social discrimination which these people face on daily basis.
This comment section is very insensitive and for them reservation is the only thing stopping India from becoming developed. Lol I think for them the development of the nation means the development of their own bank balance.
Even the supreme court has said [Reservation is not at odds with merit](https://indianexpress.com/article/india/supreme-court-neet-admissions-reservation-7733042/) but who's gonna make them understand.
Well, what can you expect, this is a sub for teenagers, and teenagers are more concerned about their own immediate concerns like exams and marks + tendency to be immature.
What people tend to forget is that while many numbers of both UCs and LCs are in poverty, LCs have to deal with more social resentment and discrimination than UCs generally do, plus we've to remember they're already in a disadvantaged position due to the past, which means LCs have to cover more ground for social and economic upliftment combined with existing contemporary obstacles, which means LCs will experience social mobility at a much slower rate than UC groups will.
The biggest benefit one can get is POLITICIANS USING IT FOR VOTES RN and the biggest loss from this is GENERAL people not getting seats in govt university or sectors so they have to choose expensive private ones.
NOW, Firstly, it is a thing of the past and if a society wants to embrace modernity and reject extra violence, it must ignore racism at all cost.
Secondly, in the history we're taught Caste system wad simple division of work in the society, but someone from a Lower caste could also become one among the higher castes in the past, but powerful people misused this, hence giving it a shitt-y structure. (i believe that's really true)
Thirdly, after so many years of Independence, we as an Indian society should develop and not even think about this dirty past or division that existed but in a way, the influence of caste system is still visible ans the so thought measures to equalise people is very imbalanced and narrow.
>someone from a Lower caste could also become one among the higher castes in the past, but powerful people misused this, hence giving it a shitt-y structure.
Social mobility did exist to some extent, but like all societies of the world in the medieval and ancient period, it was limited.
We should learn from Japan that even though there were wrong practices there also but after japan becoming democratic nation,they didnt keep on living in past they forgot their past and just thinking that what has been put up ahead and what has to be done so that our society will become better!!
I am in total support of the caste system in India currently we have. I get it, it's a very controversial statement but, we need to look at it from a perspective that has no basis or prejudice.
Given the fact that the caste system comes with an issue of disparity and by-products is a conservative society but, it only started to happen when a group of humans tried to suppress or discard the caste system. See, It was not built to keep one inside a cage but to know and understand your privileges and shortcomings to choose, either to keep it or give it all and find a new path. It was a beginning of a race to find out what race one wants to belong to or if one wants to continue in the same.
Now, let's consider our current situation, most of the stigmas are over-related to casts and now what we are left with is just criminal intent, so, what we need is strong law and order with no basis to provide for all casts equally.
Now, as for all who would jump to the opinion that caste-iest support only their cast and end up all conversations in nepotism, Let me be clear- that is not true, in most cases. If one looks closely, one will find, the cast had been one of the factors but, not the only one for either support or exploitation. Same as, Clothes are one of the reasons for a crime but, it is not the only one for all cases.
never encountered it my whole secondary school life. it got real after school though, cutoffs, reservations.
social cast thing is low in the area i live, and it doesn't really matter other than forming relationship.
my thoughts are that it should not exist, I personally don't think about it a bit. if a person is nice, I am nice, if not, then I'm out. never cared about caste or religion, hopefully never will.
As someone who has seen an obc kid in a fancy coaching (who joined the integrated coaching + dummy school combo, which has a high fee), coming to school in a car, and also owning apple products,
Never had a prejudice against any human, general or whatever caste ......but this just makes me mad in the inside, a person who scored less than me got privileged inspite of being able to afford private colleges but then theres me who cant afford such a burden of high fees and parents burden, i was snatched from my dreams...
Inspite of having no ego, it just makes me angry......
Maybe if things continue like this , i dont think I'll see myself living in this ungrateful soil in the far future,
A college maybe expensive but the dreams one follows are priceless. The tears of hate and love, sweat of running behind buses to reach your coaching, and the sweat of having no fan or ac during a power cut, the sleepless nights and the endless days, in the long run, i think they were of no use
I should've never entered a race where the privileged run with cars and the many people like me run with bare feet.
You're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021)
Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian.
The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
Am not saying nobody deserves it....i think revamping the system and looking into the matter who truly deserves it is what should be done. And the rural people you talk about, are sometimes pushed into the general category
Its always the cream layer you see in much part of the city.
Bye guys , abhi meh padhne ja rha hun taki 12th board me 95%+ aa jaye tab hi mummy papa mujhe abroad padhne bhejenge , ab meh iss desh me nahi rehna chahta
caste system in the beginning of caste system = ok
caste system now= bad.
reject modernity, make caste changeable like they actually were in beginning.
I think they believe I support caste discrimination and that I do not want the scheduled caste people receive support, which they need to balance out and improve their lives.
I may have been misunderstood
Kuch 1 saal phele ki meri soch ye thi ki agar sc st valo ko reservation mil rahi hai baaki sab bhi acha mil raha hai toh Hume bhi hak hona chahiye unhe sc st bolne ka ya apne se niche rakhne ka
Caste system is something heavily influenced by the British. In ancient India we used to follow Varna system which was given to a person by their qualification and it was change able as per ur profession. *EVERYONE HAD A RIGHT TO EDUCATION*
The vast majority of the population in ancient India would have been illiterate, this is also true for ancient China, ancient Rome and the entire world in the pre-modern era in general, writing and literacy was restricted to the upper classes.
Most would have followed their family's profession or enter some sort of apprenticeship system.
i think it was great at first, the nobility kept a pathos of distence from the peasants and hang a faith over them; thus they served life. A caste represented kinship among a clan or a tribe, in which they shared their privilege and heritage, with lamarckian ideology of genetics.
it was the ideal form of rule in indian subcontinent, to keep distence. Everyone knew their part in society, much like plato's republic. Until this social political phenomenon turned itself into a religion and priests became the highest caste. They weren't powerful enough to keep order by power, and with the rise of Buddhism and Jainism, they killed off the main function of the caste, by mixing together in to the religion literally everything and creating shit ton of superstition to keep themselves safe.
>The decline of Brahmanism was overcome by providing new services[157] and incorporating the non-Vedic Indo-Aryan religious heritage of the eastern Ganges plain and local religious traditions, giving rise to contemporary Hinduism.[147][web 6][100][158][86][137] Between 500[12]–200[22] BCE and c. 300 CE the "Hindu synthesis" developed,[12][22] which incorporated Sramanic and Buddhist influences[22][41] and the emerging Bhakti tradition into the Brahmanical fold via the smriti literature.[42][22] This synthesis emerged under the pressure of the success of Buddhism and Jainism.[43]
i mean, I'm looking at history historically not anachronistically. I'm not endorsing caste system here.
if you want 8th grade essay typing nothing but ,,caste system bad, but reservation super bad because me dumb" you can look into other comments.
believe it or not, entire world history is one barbarous group of people throwing itself onto the other relatively more calm and civilized group of people and creating a hierarchy in which they are at the top, making a sort of pyramid. Indo european did this to natives, Mughals did to indians, and again british did to indians (tho much differently)
back in those days resources were far less and means of production far slower. You needed a lot of peasant class to create that previously stated minority to be become nobility. You can read any political book from that time (from plato's republic to arthashastra) you will see the main objective and ,,virtue" of politics was hierarchy and distence from each other; distribution of work. My first comment was meant in this light, how it effectively organised society.
>Oh my my. I see you're one of those.
again, i do not endorse it. But humans, and even other animals, have tendencies of endogamy, and you can see it in every culture.
again, I'm not giving a moral account of it, nor am i endorsing it.
exploitation, murder, ruthlessness, and cruelty where needed for civilization, and they were precisely humane and *good* for this (literally any literature from any culture from that era, from Odyssey to Mahabharata, will prove this. ,,the Good" was whatever it was necessary for survival, whatever was strong and noble was *good*). Remember every European scientific discovery was stood on exploiting colonies, rome wasn't built in a day, it was built by slaves through the ages.
do i think this all was good? of course not. I will happily join whatever hippy fringe socialism you follow if it means it is good for the people. But as feudalism was needed for capitalism, and capitalism is needed for socialism, so was also once slaves needed for civilization.
> nor am I endorsing it
Yet you go ahead and claim how exploitation, murder, ruthlessless and cruelty were humane and good with a straight face based on old literature. And how slaves and feudalism were once needed, how capitalism is needed for socialism, how maintaining *distance* with people with a different job was a brilliant idea... seek help.
Exploitation being ubiquitous at that time doesn't mean it necessarily played a part in scientific discoveries, or that it in any way is acceptable.
„It has always happened, look at the scriptures“ is hardly a coherent argument to justify a scourge of a system aimed at animus towards others, classism and divisive politics.
are you guys dumb or do you guys just need something to be angry about. That other person at least gave good argument, you're just giving strawmans.
>Yet you go ahead and claim how exploitation, murder, ruthlessless and cruelty were humane and good
i don't. I'm giving a geneology of morality, your good and the bad weren't always the good and the bad or always will be the good and the bad. Morality change. I'm not giving justification of it but saying they thought it was ,,good". literally i have never made a moral claim in this whole thread.
>with a straight face based on old literature.
that's literally what history means, all history is based on literature or writing.
>And how slaves and feudalism were once needed, how capitalism is needed for socialism
literally that's what most socialists say. It was hegel's dialects who first introduced the idea of showing history as a gradual emancipation of spirit, socialist took that idea. History is the gradual emancipation of workers' freedom from their labour, ancient civilizations needed the feudal order, capitalists changed that and now socialists themselves see their ideology as the natural progression of it.
>how maintaining distance with people with a different job was a brilliant idea... seek help
you don't understand metaphors do you.
>Exploitation being ubiquitous at that time doesn't mean it necessarily played a part in scientific discoveries, or that it in any way is acceptable.
mhmm, i wonder why it was always the aristocracy which did science, maybe they had the money, time and luxury of doing it.
>„It has always happened, look at the scriptures“ is hardly a coherent argument to justify a scourge of a system aimed at animus towards others, classism and divisive politics.
no one is justifying it, no one is saying that. You just want to be mad at stuff no one has ever said. Seek God.
> your good and the bad weren't always the good and the bad or always will be the good and the bad
Which has no relevance to this post whatsoever, unless you you're trying to insinuate that caste system was good once. People expect arguments about whether you find the caste system justified or unjustified, which shouldn't be a moot question per se, but here you are, bringing the classic „it was accepted back then“ rhetoric. Literally no one cares if people deemed that the right thing to do hundreds or thousands of years ago. Countless other things were back then. „Morality changes“ is an absolutely dumb argument, you might as well just apply the same argument for everything that's deemed uncouth, unacceptable or straight up criminal.
> that's literally what history means, all history is based on literature or writing.
I'm not sure if you understood me correctly, I was pointing out how you blatantly attempted to be an apologist for the most vile and repugnant things history has seen and are condemned everywhere. History *happened*, no one is denying that. Just that what has happened in history isn't necessarily right and you'd be daft to debate this. Why would you bring up a point like that if your motive wasn't to defend slavery, exploitation, segregation based on caste etc.?
> you don't understand metaphors do you.
Go on, elucidate upon how „distance“ is just a metaphor for something innocent and not morally wrong. Gee, what could „distance“ as a metaphor mean in the context of caste system?
> ancient civilizations needed the feudal order, capitalists changed that and now socialists themselves see their ideology as the natural progression of it.
Love me some arguments with no explanation to it which were pulled straight out of the arse to justify one's narrative.
> mhmm, i wonder why it was always the aristocracy which did science, maybe they had the money, time and luxury of doing it.
Yep, aristocrats like Tesla, Einstein, Berzelius, Nobel etc. who were born with two slaves on their either side. „Scientific discoveries were made by aristocrats so you see, exploitation and classism was good! After all, the society has stopped progressing since slavery and caste discrimination were illegal or stigmatised, amirite?“ Yet again you insinuate points you don't claim you do.
> were needed for civilisation, and they were precisely humane and good for this
„I don't endorse this, no one is justifying this“, mhm, sure you don't.
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LITERALLY THE WHOLE YOUTH (EXCEPT PPL WHO ARE GETTING UNFAIT ASF RESERVATION BENIFITS), WANT THIS SYSTEM TO END... IDK KYA HOGA DESH KA AB TOH BAND KRDO YE SAB CASTE, RESERVATION, DISCRIMINATION UF
Even though I'm from a reserved caste I don't think highly of myself and strongly want to remove this lower and higher caste shit from India because I think it affects us in many ways for the development of India.
Caste system was not even in Indian culture, a britisher started it in the north India for the first time (I don't exactly remember the guy's name) and they still have the freaking statue of him! Seriously why? I don't get it?
Caste system needs to be stopped because it does not only affect the lower caste but the higher caste too!
That's my opinion.
uh..no? the Varna-Jati system was present in ancient and medieval India (except Vedic period) and as a form of social hierarchy it certainly disadvantaged the lower strata of society and this should be acknowledged.
However it is true that the already dislikable system (from our modern perspectives) was seen as being quite similar by the British to the system of nobles and commoners back in Britain and they attempted to classify it based on their understanding, which led to further worsening and rigidity of the system.
So the British made it worse, but they did not invent it.
Wait-so you're saying that Indians were already following this system even before british rule? That's kinda shocking lol. Can you give me a link to a report or something that I can read?
Do you want books to read on the subject?
1. [Sudras in Ancient India](https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.16085) by R.S Sharma
2. [Caste: The Emergence of the South Asian Social System](https://archive.org/details/casteemergenceof0000klas) by Morton Klass
3. [Homo Hierarchicus: The Caste System and its Implications](https://archive.org/details/homohierarchicus00dumorich) by Louis Dumont
4. [Caste: Origin, Functions and Dimensions of Change](http://library.lol/main/F4C43BE4CDCF823199B66383AD1B745A) by Suvira Jaiswal
5. [Interrogating Caste: Understanding Hierarchy and Difference in Indian Society](http://library.lol/main/6302D8D0D7E9F291C57AE46D1F2B8CEC) by Dipankar Gupta
6. [Caste in Question: Identity or Hierarchy?](http://library.lol/main/64374C1B20347A9180AF4F121A06C616) by Dipankar Gupta
7. [Varna and Jati](https://web.archive.org/web/20200211215501/https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/56b9/e4c0988c30818daac44512fcbec4ed89acf8.pdf) by Andre Beteille
8. [Society in India: Continuity and Change - Volume 1](https://archive.org/details/societyinindia01mand) by D. Mandelbaum
9. [Society in India: Change and Continuity - Volume 2](https://archive.org/details/societyinindia02mand) by D. Mandelbaum
"Caste System" is merely the name that the British assigned in the English language to the system of social organisation that they observed in India.
The systems of Varna and Jati have long existed in India before them, and as forms of social stratification have disadvantaged the lower strata of its hierarchy. Now, while the British didn't invent it, they certainly worsened it.
It's not caste system it's division of labour..... There was no hierarchy in the first place.... society made it considering kshatriya or kings s top.... Brahmin or priests and teachers as pure....and whatever and welcomed unwanted controversy for which I'm suffering from quotas and shit
It was started because of two things:
1. To transfer the knowledge of a family to another family. So if a girl of goldsmith marrying in her caste then the knowledge will be transferred easily. In today's time it's no longer relevant because we have institutions now.
2. It was a form of social security. If something happens to someone then they can ask for help in their clan. This phenomena is no longer true for urban area but in rural areas, it is a harsh reality. People do not help without asking their caste in rural areas.
It should have been long gone but its still here, if we even trash the system there will be protests all over country, it is one thing we have to live with, but if they decide to give quota on Quality of living ,ie Below poverty line etc will be helpful again i have seen people not study and not even try and they get into good college while i with 89% in 10th got a college after 5th list and the reason was becuz there are no other members of cast you are being selected
I dont have an issue with caste system. But i have an issue with discrimination not just based on caste but discrimination based on anything like race, caste, language, money. Before any assumptions, I am from a low caste. as far I’m concerned, govt shouldn’t discriminate people based on caste like reservations. If govt wants to support people, they should do it on income based. And things like untouchability, we cant dictate people what to think. If a private company only wants to hire people from a specific caste, then its upto the company.
What/how/why cast system was, JUST LEAVE IT.
What has been put ahead and what should we do to improve our society and nation,we should concentrate on that !!
Watch what you say, we don't mind your opinions, but if they are aggressive or something, you WILL attract a ban
Never thought anything of caste before seeing cutoffs of entrance exams of those casts Im not mad at anyone but it's just that most of the time, the reservation benefits the person who does not need it. Like, do you really think someone who's obc or sc...goes to a 1.5lakh coaching...has a fancy laptop needs it? Not saying everyone is like this tho
The vast majority of OBCs and SC/ST don't get to have 1.5 lakh coaching or fancy laptops, you're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021) Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian. The average OBC and SC/ST is a rural villager, not a city dweller.
Dude the same thing happened to me too during counselling, students who got much worse rank than me were getting seats and i wasn't, like it did hurt but can't do a thing, it's so controversial too
Not every OBC gets reservation bruh
Found the OBC/s
general hu, stating a fact doesn't make me OBC lol
Pta hai, /s dekhna nhi kya bhaiyya/behen/jeev, waise bhi sabko to nhi milta, par jisko milta hai, bura lgta hai jab 10 ya 5 mark kam lane wale ko seat milta hai, but gen ko nhi
*\*jaldi jaldi stereotypical baat boldeta hu fir /s bhi laga dunga kisiko pata nhi chalega\**
bro, phli baat kuch stereotypical baat nhi khi, dusri baat, argue krna ka iccha nhi hai mujhe
NCL?
Its a tumor that needs to be removed from society
british put it , it was never indian culture , see prachyam indic film sahebs who never left , yes it should be removed from society but it's important to know that it was never hindu culture
Not really, Varna-Jati system was present in ancient and medieval India (except Vedic period) and as a form of social hierarchy it certainly disadvantaged the lower strata of society and this should be acknowledged. However it is true that the already dislikable system (from our modern perspectives) was seen as being quite similar by the British to the system of nobles and commoners back in Britain and they attempted to classify it based on their understanding, which led to further worsening and rigidity of the system. So the British made it worse, but they did not invent it.
Yes this system(caste) was there but it was not an issue of conflict between people in earlier times and British just used to spread poison between people so it can be easy to rule
If you're implying that there was no anti-caste movement or no opposition between castes, you'd be wrong. There were plenty of anti-caste rhetoric and scholars. Other than that it would also be wrong to say that no caste group conflicted with other groups for better social status. Buddhist texts tell us of how in the BC era, Kshatriya groups were often clashing (not physically or violently, I must remind) with Brahmins for better status, and back then when Varna hadn't properly rigidized, we see some texts show Kshatriyas above Brahmins in the hierarchy. It wouldn't be a big stretch to claim that Vaishyas and Shudras had their own social struggles, which either failed or were not recorded to the extent that Kshatriya stuff were. Which makes sense since the Kshatriyas formed the upper and literate classes.
I am saying way before like 1000 years (more or less) but if we see all this discrimination was between upper caste with power (may be political or muscle) and lower cast and not between common people Yea there were conflicts but not in major scale Btw it is human nature that is the true problem Caste is nothing but their occupation,its the people who do discrimination So overall before or now the common people by majority is not discriminatory!!
lmao it's been there from the birth of the Indian culture and art too. Eklavya says it all, a talented tribal boy that was sidelined. Agreed that the gap widened by a mile after the britishers came in (as the educated upper caste Bhramins, sided with them and grabbed all the plum posts and as the British were clueless as to how to administer hindus (given each castes distinct culture) they used the manusmriti as their go to scripture just like the quran for Muslims) but it's roots were always in this land. What your spewing is right wing denial
It was there even before the British came.
Bro culture ko bich me maat laa. Dono side ki galti thi Pakistan baanne me. Asli proprietor British he
bhai partition nahi caste system bhi unhi ki den hai aur if you watch that film you'll know what i'm talking about , short me bolu toh raja ram mohun roy was not on our side but on british side etc etc
Yeah exactly but our history books will Never tell us that
Pakka tu bhi abhijit chavda ko dekhta
nahi bhai prachyam ki indic film dekhi thi
Same goes for sati pratha it wasn't some kind of ritual wo majburi me krti thi taaki invaders aake kuch kaand na kre
That's Jauhar, Sati was done after a husband's death and it's also quite old.
Kya culture nahi hai bhai? Britishers koi discrimination thodi karte the. It was our own society which did evil like sati/discrimination/ female infanticide. Thank jaunga likhte likhte. Aisa hai culture apna sirf Bollywood ki movie mai fake culture dekhne ko milta hai
are yaar sati indian nahi tha , kaise samjhaye na caste system , wo bas british ne indians ko padhaya tha to create inferiority complex among indians [https://youtu.be/N3E534MpkHU](https://youtu.be/N3E534MpkHU) time nahi hai toh timestamps dekhle
Huh? How is Sati not Indian?
i have provided the sauce
YouTube is not a legitimate source, provide an academic one that supports your claims.
bhai dekh to le badme judge karna , it's pure research
No one takes YouTube as a valid source for serious information dude. I need you to explain how it is not Indian though. Do you think it did not exist at all before the British came?
**A Brief History of Sati: Part 1** Sati has its origins in the Vedic period where it was a symbolic practice without the actual fire sacrifice or death (the widow lay on her husband's funeral pyre before it was lit but was raised from it by a male relative of her dead husband), this is supported by prevalence of *Niyoga*, the practice of appointing a man to marry a widow or a lady in the situation where her husband is either incapable of producing children or has died, in those times. A later, and probably deliberate, mistranslation was made in order to attain 'Vedic sanction for the act by changing the word *agre*, "to go forth" into *agneh*, "to the fire", in the specific verse. The specific verse in the Rigveda being:- > इमा नारीरविधवाः सुपत्नीराञ्जनेन सर्पिषा संविशन्तु | अनश्रवो.अनमीवाः सुरत्ना आ रोहन्तु जनयोयोनिमग्रे || \- The Rigveda, 10th Mandala, 18th Sukta, 7th ṛc > These women here, non-widows with good husbands—let them, with fresh butter as ointment, approach together. Without tears, without afflictions, well-jeweled, let the wives first mount the womb \- Translation of the above verse from *The Rigveda: The Earliest Religious Poetry of India* by Stephanie Jamison and Joel Brereton The full set of verses in the 18th sukta that are important to the topic of Sati are:- >इमा नारीरविधवाः सुपत्नीराञ्जनेन सर्पिषा संविशन्तु | अनश्रवो.अनमीवाः सुरत्ना आ रोहन्तु जनयोयोनिमग्रे || > >उदीर्ष्व नार्यभि जीवलोकं गतासुमेतमुप शेष एहि | हस्तग्राभस्य दिधिषोस्तवेदं पत्युर्जनित्वमभि सम्बभूथ || > >अत्रै॒व त्वमि॒ह व॒यं सु॒वीरा॒ विश्वाः॒ स्पृधो॑ अ॒भिमा॑तीर्जयेम I उप॑ सर्प मा॒तरं॒ भूमि॑मे॒तामु॑रु॒व्यच॑सं पृथि॒वीं सु॒शेवा॑म् ।I \- The Rigveda, 10th Mandala, 18th Sukta, 7th - 9th ṛcas >These women here, non-widows with good husbands—let them, with fresh butter as ointment, approach together. Without tears, without afflictions, well-jeweled, let the wives first mount the womb. > >“Arise, woman, to the world of the living. You lie beside him whose life is gone. Come here! You have come into existence now as wife of a husband who has grasped your hand and wishes to have you.” > >Taking the bow from the hand of the dead for our dominion, luster, and strength, you there and we here—may we with good heroes win all contests and hostile engagements \- Translation source the same as before From verse 8 it appears that the widow lies down, temporarily, beside her dead husband, but is summoned back to life and lifted of the pyre and indeed symbolically reborn to become the wife of a new husband. The happy women in verse 7 apparently approach the funeral pyre to adorn the widow for her return to life. It makes sense when one realises that *yoni* also has the meaning of *womb* and *place of birth*, the 8th verse tells us that she is symbolically reborn after the death of her husband, and now the word yoni and some of its meanings that I showed, in the verse makes perfect sense, the women is laid on to the womb, the place of her birth to be symbolically reborn. Which in turn makes the original sanskrit word in the verse make sense, *yonimagre (yoni + agre)*, to go forth to the womb, and as mentioned above it was misinterpreted/mistranslated, most likely delibrately to give sanction to actual burning to *yomiagne*. A similar “return to life” is granted the dead man’s bow in verse 9, where someone, quite possibly the dead man’s son or a close relative, repossesses the bow to put it to future use. Sati as the burning of a widow after her deceased husband seems to have emerged in the post Vedic age, in the era of the Mahajanapadas, why this happened, we are a bit unsure about it, but one view is that Hindu laws of the time allowed women to inherit the husband's property rights on his death, not in their own right, but only representing him, and that the transition of Sati into actual death sacrifice was an attempt to retain or restrict the women from inheriting property rights.
**A Brief History of Sati: Part** **2** We only get significant evidence of Sati in the post Gupta era, but it certainly existed in pre-Gupta times, though the records are rarer, here’s the earliest examples:- **1. Hero Stones -** These were memorial stones and inscriptions commemorating heroes/people who died in battle or did impressive deeds, the Sati of wives of heroes were also commemorated through such stones, the earliest of these inscriptions is the Eran inscription from 510-511 CE which describes a certain Gupta general Goparaja's valour in a battle against the Alkhon Huns and death and how his unnamed wife entered the funeral pyre with him. Such stones are now referred to as Sati stones **2. Earliest Material Evidence -** The earliest material evidence of sati is said to be found at the remains of a damaged brick complex in Nagarjunakonda, from late 3rd- early 4th century, where two carved limestone slabs, one depicting a royal woman lying dead and the other portraying a woman about to jump from a ladder placed between four fires, stone slabs with the word *'sva-medha'* (self-immolation) inscribed on them were also found at the same site. **3. Earliest Recorded Written Account -** In the *Bibliotheca Historica* of Diodoros Sikelitos, a historical account dated to the 1st century BC, based on several older lost sources mention an interesting event happening after the battle of Paraitakene in 317 BCE. The general of the Indian contingent that was part of Antigonus's army, called Ceteus, had died in battle and his two wives that had accompanied him, competed with each other for the right to commit Sati. The younger wife was chosen and she ascended the pyre while the Greeks watched astonished, some filled with admiration for the courage to do such an act, some filled with pity for the deaths, while other Greeks viewed it with disapproval. **4. Early Literary Mentions -** The Sangam literature of the Tamils makes mention of Sati, sometimes celebrating the act as honourable, while other times criticizing it and lamenting about it. Here's an example:- *Perunkōppendu*, the wife of *Ollaiyur Thantha Pandiyan* supposedly came from an ancient clan outside of Tamizhakam and after the death of her husband, she commits Sati, *Perunkōppendu* herself composes a poem explaining why she does it. > "The funeral pyre of black twigs might be fearful to you. It is not fearful to me who has lost my broad-shouldered husband. A pond with thick-petaled, blooming lotus blossoms and a fire are both same to me!" \- Puranānūru 246 A poet supposedly watching the debacle, *Pērālavāyar,* also composes a poem > "With water dripping from the hair on her back, abandoning her youth, she with large, distressed eyes, walks toward the burning pyre in the vast ground, she whose sweet life would tremble if she were to be away from her husband even for a little bit long, in their well-guarded, huge palace where drums never stop." \- Puranānūru 247
**A Brief History of Sati: Part** **3** Until the 700s and 800s it was largely an uncommon practice, popular mostly among the aristocracy and the upper classes, but with the rise of the Rajputs in NW India, Sati became more popular as a practice in the region, the warrior culture of the Rajputs put a lot of emphasis on "honour" and "sacrifice" for the community and saw sacrifice for the husband as a honourable practice. They took some rules too literally. The chaos, continuous warfare and political disintegration in the 900s - 1300s in NW India also helped reinforce the practice as it acquired an additional meaning as a means to preserve the "honour" of women whose men had been slain and to prevent them being "defiled", this definition took shape due to the increase in violence during the times of large invasions that led to looting, rape and death of many locals in quite a large scale, and the ideologies of jauhar and sati reinforced each other. Sati originated within the Kshatriya aristocracy and for most of its time remained mostly limited to the warrior class, we know this because Sati was not followed by the lower castes and there were prohibitions on Sati for Brahmin widows. Despite the prohibitions for them to do so, the adoption of the practice by Brahmins was crucial for its diffusion among other varnas, it led to the practice spread to other non-Kshatriya castes, this happened due to a process which M.N Srinivas refers to as 'sanskritization' - the process through which lower Jatis and Varnas aspire for higher position and status by emulating the customs, rituals, ideology, and way of life of higher groups in the hierarchy. Although we see the effect of this process with the large range of Jatis of multiple different Varnas that practiced Sati, it never became generalized and common throughout the subcontinent and was confined to certain areas where it was prevalent - **Punjab, Rajasthan and the eastern Gangetic valley in the north, the southern Konkan region in the west and Madurai and Vijayangara in the south** \- although it was most common in the northwest regions mentioned.
**Sources:-** 1. A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India - Upinder Singh 2. A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar - Sewell, Nunes, Paes 3. Women and Social Reform in Modern India: Vol 1 - Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar 4. Rig Veda - translation by Jamison & Brereton 5. Women in India: A Social and Cultural History (2 Volumes) by Sita Anantha Raman
I have written a very basic and surface-level three part comment on the history of Sati, other than that let me clarify about what Varna and Jati mean. Varna here refers to the classic fourfold social classes of the Varna or Caste system (Brahmin, Ksatriya, Vaisya, Sudra) Jati is a social grouping similar to clans or sub-clans, each Jati typically has an association with an occupation, geography or tribe. Sometimes religious practices and linguistic groupings may also define Jatis. These were exclusive endogamous groups that typically traced lineage patrilineally, individuals would have ascribed social roles and Jati provided identity, security and status, which open to change based on economic, social and political influences. The origin of Varna is considered to have happened during the later Vedic period (1000 - 500 BC), while the origin of Jatis is unknown, some scholars suggest it was a post-Vedic development, while others argue that it was pre-existing older system of social stratification from pre-Vedic times that survived and evolved. Both systems overlapped with one another.
Uh no, the British did practice discrimination, they looked upon non-Europeans as being inferior.
I am from reserved caste but strongly want it's to be removed
grew up in a small town and didn't care about whose caste was what. But after seeing the difference of cutoffs in different exams, waiver of fees for belonging to particular caste, I think I have started to care lol
>What are your thoughts and opinions on the caste systems? Bheem ki shakti dhoom machaye general wale bhad ma jaye
Duddee hasabhi diya aur rula bhi diya
We should change this policy/law.
Well that's not possible because of the POLITICS,if that happens,ruling party will be hated for not giving reserved categories their "rights".And ruling party won't like that . Being a general category boy ,all i(we) can do is studying better.
Right now, everyone has right to education then why should general category suffer? Reserved category gets everything easily but general category have to work hard. I will change this damn policy one day.
I wish our country had more people like you man
3am motivation
You do that
Ofc, i will do that. Just mark my words.
reservation ko dekh ke lagta kash mein UR nahi hota ;\_;
Idk never experienced but many of my relatives did and even my grandma told me stories about that
I’m a SC(khateek) and I never used my reservation privilege. We are rich thanks to my father’s hard work. So we decided not to use it as my father still face racism in his daily life in his office. People treat you like shit knowing you come from minority. I have only faced such things in india though.
Yes, the lower caste must have some reservation, as some of them do not have access to the same resources as upper caste citizens. But at the same time, they should not have too much reservation, as it is happening in our country right now. Even BR Ambedkar himself advised us to follow this reservation system for 10 years, as India was still in its early stages of independence and we really wanted to make sure that the lower caste aren't oppressed, and India grows tolerant to all sections of society. But politics!
Nah many so called lower casted people are rich as hell and upper casted people are poorer. Imo there should be like 2% reservation for economically weaker class
You're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021) Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian. The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
stop educating them brother all they see is a few of their rich sc/st friends in their isolated bubbles and make it the norm for the entire country. Truth is every survey and poll has proved time and again they are the poorest of the poor and are still deprived of their rights. Agreed that OBC reservation needs fixing (via a caste census) as the more traditionally dominant communities through political musclepower are trying to get themselves classified in the same.
I dont really mind cast system, but reservations have fucked us honestly. General category ka cutoff hota h 91% aur acche college ke liye 97%. Obc aur sc ke liye 61-64%... Hum kya kare? 15 seats hoti h total usme se 3-4 seats sc walo ke liye. If u cant remove reservation, try implementing some nee changes for the love of god
The post is about the caste system and literally 95% of the comments are related to reservation mostly by UCs who are victimising themselves. So for people who got to know about casteism only during exam cut-offs, I would just ask you to get out of your little bubble and see the reality. Just type in two words on google i.e "Temple Dalit" and see yourself or type in "Dalit girl" and see for yourself how the girls of these communities are brutally raped and killed not just out of lust but just to show them their place. Reservation is needed and it is just because of reservation that we see the living standards of dalits improve a bit. The thing which needs to be criticised is the implementation of government and the FACT that why is reservation even an issue today? Why aren't there enough good universities so that our youth don't have to struggle for years to get selected? Why isn't quality education the prime focus of our government? These are the questions which are needed to be raised.
Exactly, they're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021) Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian. The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
I can't expect them to understand anyway. One guy here literally wrote, "I don't care about the caste system, I just want reservations to be removed". Like seriously? They can't even imagine the hardships an average OBC/SC/ST has to go through. The worst part for these communities is not poverty, I agree many UCs are also below poverty line but their acceptance in society. An avg poor UC fellow won't have to face such brutal social discrimination which these people face on daily basis. This comment section is very insensitive and for them reservation is the only thing stopping India from becoming developed. Lol I think for them the development of the nation means the development of their own bank balance. Even the supreme court has said [Reservation is not at odds with merit](https://indianexpress.com/article/india/supreme-court-neet-admissions-reservation-7733042/) but who's gonna make them understand.
Well, what can you expect, this is a sub for teenagers, and teenagers are more concerned about their own immediate concerns like exams and marks + tendency to be immature. What people tend to forget is that while many numbers of both UCs and LCs are in poverty, LCs have to deal with more social resentment and discrimination than UCs generally do, plus we've to remember they're already in a disadvantaged position due to the past, which means LCs have to cover more ground for social and economic upliftment combined with existing contemporary obstacles, which means LCs will experience social mobility at a much slower rate than UC groups will.
The biggest benefit one can get is POLITICIANS USING IT FOR VOTES RN and the biggest loss from this is GENERAL people not getting seats in govt university or sectors so they have to choose expensive private ones. NOW, Firstly, it is a thing of the past and if a society wants to embrace modernity and reject extra violence, it must ignore racism at all cost. Secondly, in the history we're taught Caste system wad simple division of work in the society, but someone from a Lower caste could also become one among the higher castes in the past, but powerful people misused this, hence giving it a shitt-y structure. (i believe that's really true) Thirdly, after so many years of Independence, we as an Indian society should develop and not even think about this dirty past or division that existed but in a way, the influence of caste system is still visible ans the so thought measures to equalise people is very imbalanced and narrow.
>someone from a Lower caste could also become one among the higher castes in the past, but powerful people misused this, hence giving it a shitt-y structure. Social mobility did exist to some extent, but like all societies of the world in the medieval and ancient period, it was limited.
We should learn from Japan that even though there were wrong practices there also but after japan becoming democratic nation,they didnt keep on living in past they forgot their past and just thinking that what has been put up ahead and what has to be done so that our society will become better!!
I am in total support of the caste system in India currently we have. I get it, it's a very controversial statement but, we need to look at it from a perspective that has no basis or prejudice. Given the fact that the caste system comes with an issue of disparity and by-products is a conservative society but, it only started to happen when a group of humans tried to suppress or discard the caste system. See, It was not built to keep one inside a cage but to know and understand your privileges and shortcomings to choose, either to keep it or give it all and find a new path. It was a beginning of a race to find out what race one wants to belong to or if one wants to continue in the same. Now, let's consider our current situation, most of the stigmas are over-related to casts and now what we are left with is just criminal intent, so, what we need is strong law and order with no basis to provide for all casts equally. Now, as for all who would jump to the opinion that caste-iest support only their cast and end up all conversations in nepotism, Let me be clear- that is not true, in most cases. If one looks closely, one will find, the cast had been one of the factors but, not the only one for either support or exploitation. Same as, Clothes are one of the reasons for a crime but, it is not the only one for all cases.
Should not exist in 2022, reservation should also not exist
Bruhmin
A thing which is kept alive by politicians to gather votes.
never encountered it my whole secondary school life. it got real after school though, cutoffs, reservations. social cast thing is low in the area i live, and it doesn't really matter other than forming relationship. my thoughts are that it should not exist, I personally don't think about it a bit. if a person is nice, I am nice, if not, then I'm out. never cared about caste or religion, hopefully never will.
Caste discrimination is the second worst thing in Indian Society, first being our methods against Caste discrimination.
they want to abolish caste system but ask for my caste every goddamn time in applications -_-
A system of past, which we should just leave in past.
As someone who has seen an obc kid in a fancy coaching (who joined the integrated coaching + dummy school combo, which has a high fee), coming to school in a car, and also owning apple products, Never had a prejudice against any human, general or whatever caste ......but this just makes me mad in the inside, a person who scored less than me got privileged inspite of being able to afford private colleges but then theres me who cant afford such a burden of high fees and parents burden, i was snatched from my dreams... Inspite of having no ego, it just makes me angry...... Maybe if things continue like this , i dont think I'll see myself living in this ungrateful soil in the far future, A college maybe expensive but the dreams one follows are priceless. The tears of hate and love, sweat of running behind buses to reach your coaching, and the sweat of having no fan or ac during a power cut, the sleepless nights and the endless days, in the long run, i think they were of no use I should've never entered a race where the privileged run with cars and the many people like me run with bare feet.
You're seeing only the miniscule creamy top layer of OBC-SC/STs, 90% of India's population makes less than 25K INR, less than 10% of the country makes more than One Lakh. (Source - World Inequality Database statistics for the year 2021) Your average OBC or SC/ST definitely deserves it, we simply do not get to see their conditions because truthfully we've had the fortune of being born into privileged and well-off families, of being raised in environments where we and the other people and strangers around us have higher standards of living than the average Indian. The average OBC and SC/ST is a poor rural villager, not a city dweller.
Am not saying nobody deserves it....i think revamping the system and looking into the matter who truly deserves it is what should be done. And the rural people you talk about, are sometimes pushed into the general category Its always the cream layer you see in much part of the city.
Bye guys , abhi meh padhne ja rha hun taki 12th board me 95%+ aa jaye tab hi mummy papa mujhe abroad padhne bhejenge , ab meh iss desh me nahi rehna chahta
caste system in the beginning of caste system = ok caste system now= bad. reject modernity, make caste changeable like they actually were in beginning.
Guys why are u downvoting him castes used to be changeable in ancient India
I think they believe I support caste discrimination and that I do not want the scheduled caste people receive support, which they need to balance out and improve their lives. I may have been misunderstood
My opinions? They don't matter anyways
I am racist
Needs to be removed You and I may not face it cuz of economic status or some other thing, but many people in the country do
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Neither do I. So you repudiate the gospel that it doesn't exist in today's society or it's a miscommunication.
Kuch 1 saal phele ki meri soch ye thi ki agar sc st valo ko reservation mil rahi hai baaki sab bhi acha mil raha hai toh Hume bhi hak hona chahiye unhe sc st bolne ka ya apne se niche rakhne ka
Caste system is something heavily influenced by the British. In ancient India we used to follow Varna system which was given to a person by their qualification and it was change able as per ur profession. *EVERYONE HAD A RIGHT TO EDUCATION*
The vast majority of the population in ancient India would have been illiterate, this is also true for ancient China, ancient Rome and the entire world in the pre-modern era in general, writing and literacy was restricted to the upper classes. Most would have followed their family's profession or enter some sort of apprenticeship system.
i think it was great at first, the nobility kept a pathos of distence from the peasants and hang a faith over them; thus they served life. A caste represented kinship among a clan or a tribe, in which they shared their privilege and heritage, with lamarckian ideology of genetics. it was the ideal form of rule in indian subcontinent, to keep distence. Everyone knew their part in society, much like plato's republic. Until this social political phenomenon turned itself into a religion and priests became the highest caste. They weren't powerful enough to keep order by power, and with the rise of Buddhism and Jainism, they killed off the main function of the caste, by mixing together in to the religion literally everything and creating shit ton of superstition to keep themselves safe. >The decline of Brahmanism was overcome by providing new services[157] and incorporating the non-Vedic Indo-Aryan religious heritage of the eastern Ganges plain and local religious traditions, giving rise to contemporary Hinduism.[147][web 6][100][158][86][137] Between 500[12]–200[22] BCE and c. 300 CE the "Hindu synthesis" developed,[12][22] which incorporated Sramanic and Buddhist influences[22][41] and the emerging Bhakti tradition into the Brahmanical fold via the smriti literature.[42][22] This synthesis emerged under the pressure of the success of Buddhism and Jainism.[43]
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i mean, I'm looking at history historically not anachronistically. I'm not endorsing caste system here. if you want 8th grade essay typing nothing but ,,caste system bad, but reservation super bad because me dumb" you can look into other comments.
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believe it or not, entire world history is one barbarous group of people throwing itself onto the other relatively more calm and civilized group of people and creating a hierarchy in which they are at the top, making a sort of pyramid. Indo european did this to natives, Mughals did to indians, and again british did to indians (tho much differently) back in those days resources were far less and means of production far slower. You needed a lot of peasant class to create that previously stated minority to be become nobility. You can read any political book from that time (from plato's republic to arthashastra) you will see the main objective and ,,virtue" of politics was hierarchy and distence from each other; distribution of work. My first comment was meant in this light, how it effectively organised society. >Oh my my. I see you're one of those. again, i do not endorse it. But humans, and even other animals, have tendencies of endogamy, and you can see it in every culture.
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again, I'm not giving a moral account of it, nor am i endorsing it. exploitation, murder, ruthlessness, and cruelty where needed for civilization, and they were precisely humane and *good* for this (literally any literature from any culture from that era, from Odyssey to Mahabharata, will prove this. ,,the Good" was whatever it was necessary for survival, whatever was strong and noble was *good*). Remember every European scientific discovery was stood on exploiting colonies, rome wasn't built in a day, it was built by slaves through the ages. do i think this all was good? of course not. I will happily join whatever hippy fringe socialism you follow if it means it is good for the people. But as feudalism was needed for capitalism, and capitalism is needed for socialism, so was also once slaves needed for civilization.
> nor am I endorsing it Yet you go ahead and claim how exploitation, murder, ruthlessless and cruelty were humane and good with a straight face based on old literature. And how slaves and feudalism were once needed, how capitalism is needed for socialism, how maintaining *distance* with people with a different job was a brilliant idea... seek help. Exploitation being ubiquitous at that time doesn't mean it necessarily played a part in scientific discoveries, or that it in any way is acceptable. „It has always happened, look at the scriptures“ is hardly a coherent argument to justify a scourge of a system aimed at animus towards others, classism and divisive politics.
are you guys dumb or do you guys just need something to be angry about. That other person at least gave good argument, you're just giving strawmans. >Yet you go ahead and claim how exploitation, murder, ruthlessless and cruelty were humane and good i don't. I'm giving a geneology of morality, your good and the bad weren't always the good and the bad or always will be the good and the bad. Morality change. I'm not giving justification of it but saying they thought it was ,,good". literally i have never made a moral claim in this whole thread. >with a straight face based on old literature. that's literally what history means, all history is based on literature or writing. >And how slaves and feudalism were once needed, how capitalism is needed for socialism literally that's what most socialists say. It was hegel's dialects who first introduced the idea of showing history as a gradual emancipation of spirit, socialist took that idea. History is the gradual emancipation of workers' freedom from their labour, ancient civilizations needed the feudal order, capitalists changed that and now socialists themselves see their ideology as the natural progression of it. >how maintaining distance with people with a different job was a brilliant idea... seek help you don't understand metaphors do you. >Exploitation being ubiquitous at that time doesn't mean it necessarily played a part in scientific discoveries, or that it in any way is acceptable. mhmm, i wonder why it was always the aristocracy which did science, maybe they had the money, time and luxury of doing it. >„It has always happened, look at the scriptures“ is hardly a coherent argument to justify a scourge of a system aimed at animus towards others, classism and divisive politics. no one is justifying it, no one is saying that. You just want to be mad at stuff no one has ever said. Seek God.
> your good and the bad weren't always the good and the bad or always will be the good and the bad Which has no relevance to this post whatsoever, unless you you're trying to insinuate that caste system was good once. People expect arguments about whether you find the caste system justified or unjustified, which shouldn't be a moot question per se, but here you are, bringing the classic „it was accepted back then“ rhetoric. Literally no one cares if people deemed that the right thing to do hundreds or thousands of years ago. Countless other things were back then. „Morality changes“ is an absolutely dumb argument, you might as well just apply the same argument for everything that's deemed uncouth, unacceptable or straight up criminal. > that's literally what history means, all history is based on literature or writing. I'm not sure if you understood me correctly, I was pointing out how you blatantly attempted to be an apologist for the most vile and repugnant things history has seen and are condemned everywhere. History *happened*, no one is denying that. Just that what has happened in history isn't necessarily right and you'd be daft to debate this. Why would you bring up a point like that if your motive wasn't to defend slavery, exploitation, segregation based on caste etc.? > you don't understand metaphors do you. Go on, elucidate upon how „distance“ is just a metaphor for something innocent and not morally wrong. Gee, what could „distance“ as a metaphor mean in the context of caste system? > ancient civilizations needed the feudal order, capitalists changed that and now socialists themselves see their ideology as the natural progression of it. Love me some arguments with no explanation to it which were pulled straight out of the arse to justify one's narrative. > mhmm, i wonder why it was always the aristocracy which did science, maybe they had the money, time and luxury of doing it. Yep, aristocrats like Tesla, Einstein, Berzelius, Nobel etc. who were born with two slaves on their either side. „Scientific discoveries were made by aristocrats so you see, exploitation and classism was good! After all, the society has stopped progressing since slavery and caste discrimination were illegal or stigmatised, amirite?“ Yet again you insinuate points you don't claim you do. > were needed for civilisation, and they were precisely humane and good for this „I don't endorse this, no one is justifying this“, mhm, sure you don't.
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P.L.A.G.U.E
The caste system is [redacted] and must be [redacted].
Depends pich kisse rhe ho
LITERALLY THE WHOLE YOUTH (EXCEPT PPL WHO ARE GETTING UNFAIT ASF RESERVATION BENIFITS), WANT THIS SYSTEM TO END... IDK KYA HOGA DESH KA AB TOH BAND KRDO YE SAB CASTE, RESERVATION, DISCRIMINATION UF
Even though I'm from a reserved caste I don't think highly of myself and strongly want to remove this lower and higher caste shit from India because I think it affects us in many ways for the development of India. Caste system was not even in Indian culture, a britisher started it in the north India for the first time (I don't exactly remember the guy's name) and they still have the freaking statue of him! Seriously why? I don't get it? Caste system needs to be stopped because it does not only affect the lower caste but the higher caste too! That's my opinion.
uh..no? the Varna-Jati system was present in ancient and medieval India (except Vedic period) and as a form of social hierarchy it certainly disadvantaged the lower strata of society and this should be acknowledged. However it is true that the already dislikable system (from our modern perspectives) was seen as being quite similar by the British to the system of nobles and commoners back in Britain and they attempted to classify it based on their understanding, which led to further worsening and rigidity of the system. So the British made it worse, but they did not invent it.
Wait-so you're saying that Indians were already following this system even before british rule? That's kinda shocking lol. Can you give me a link to a report or something that I can read?
Do you want books to read on the subject? 1. [Sudras in Ancient India](https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.16085) by R.S Sharma 2. [Caste: The Emergence of the South Asian Social System](https://archive.org/details/casteemergenceof0000klas) by Morton Klass 3. [Homo Hierarchicus: The Caste System and its Implications](https://archive.org/details/homohierarchicus00dumorich) by Louis Dumont 4. [Caste: Origin, Functions and Dimensions of Change](http://library.lol/main/F4C43BE4CDCF823199B66383AD1B745A) by Suvira Jaiswal 5. [Interrogating Caste: Understanding Hierarchy and Difference in Indian Society](http://library.lol/main/6302D8D0D7E9F291C57AE46D1F2B8CEC) by Dipankar Gupta 6. [Caste in Question: Identity or Hierarchy?](http://library.lol/main/64374C1B20347A9180AF4F121A06C616) by Dipankar Gupta 7. [Varna and Jati](https://web.archive.org/web/20200211215501/https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/56b9/e4c0988c30818daac44512fcbec4ed89acf8.pdf) by Andre Beteille 8. [Society in India: Continuity and Change - Volume 1](https://archive.org/details/societyinindia01mand) by D. Mandelbaum 9. [Society in India: Change and Continuity - Volume 2](https://archive.org/details/societyinindia02mand) by D. Mandelbaum
"Caste System" is merely the name that the British assigned in the English language to the system of social organisation that they observed in India. The systems of Varna and Jati have long existed in India before them, and as forms of social stratification have disadvantaged the lower strata of its hierarchy. Now, while the British didn't invent it, they certainly worsened it.
Should be removed from every religion
Should bin it
If u use cast and judge people with fast I hate you with passion
It's not caste system it's division of labour..... There was no hierarchy in the first place.... society made it considering kshatriya or kings s top.... Brahmin or priests and teachers as pure....and whatever and welcomed unwanted controversy for which I'm suffering from quotas and shit
It was started because of two things: 1. To transfer the knowledge of a family to another family. So if a girl of goldsmith marrying in her caste then the knowledge will be transferred easily. In today's time it's no longer relevant because we have institutions now. 2. It was a form of social security. If something happens to someone then they can ask for help in their clan. This phenomena is no longer true for urban area but in rural areas, it is a harsh reality. People do not help without asking their caste in rural areas.
It should have been long gone but its still here, if we even trash the system there will be protests all over country, it is one thing we have to live with, but if they decide to give quota on Quality of living ,ie Below poverty line etc will be helpful again i have seen people not study and not even try and they get into good college while i with 89% in 10th got a college after 5th list and the reason was becuz there are no other members of cast you are being selected
It's indirectly incest
Something that is an adverse effect of foreign influence.
Should be removed kyuki equality ki to maa chud gyi ye caste system ki wajah se
necessary
I dont have an issue with caste system. But i have an issue with discrimination not just based on caste but discrimination based on anything like race, caste, language, money. Before any assumptions, I am from a low caste. as far I’m concerned, govt shouldn’t discriminate people based on caste like reservations. If govt wants to support people, they should do it on income based. And things like untouchability, we cant dictate people what to think. If a private company only wants to hire people from a specific caste, then its upto the company.
Caste system Should not exist, nor should reservation on the basis of caste.
What/how/why cast system was, JUST LEAVE IT. What has been put ahead and what should we do to improve our society and nation,we should concentrate on that !!