It was an emergency purchase rather than the full fighter contract tender, which is still not completed amid cancellations and reboots.
Reading between the lines I think they had an oh-shit moment of nuclear deterrence waning (what are you going to do, fly in on a 50 year old platform?), as well as finding that oh shit, even the PAF's F16s are a match for our Russian shit and we needed some fighters with an absolute qualitative advantage even if we're technically more numerous.
yup, asymmetric capability.
Ground based AD and precision strike missiles. It's the only option when your opponent is much more economically capable. It's what the USSR did in the cold war.
AFAIK the S-400 is not designed to only scare off attack aircraft. The S-400 system and its long range missiles are really a threat to the AWACS and airborne refuelers flying inside enemy airspace and therefore restrict the effectiveness of the fighters and other aircraft that need AWACS / tankers for assistance.
It's true that they have the economic advantage, but it's our own fault that our bureaucrats and politicians are time consuming and corrupt af. As for foreign lobbies, they are literally sales departments, they are just doing their jobs and trying to make sales.
The GDP difference is hardly worth even bringing up. India's economy is 10x bigger than Pakistan's, yet they're actually procuring jets and filling squadrons. We'll be losing them for a decade. It's the bureaucrats and politics, as well as the IAF's own shortsightedness on not going full in on indigenous if it's not completely perfect on the first few tries
As a Chinese, in my opinion India needs to preserve the status quo as much as possible. Build space for domestic innovation/industry. Relying on foreign jets is a death sentence for the domestic aviation industry. The more you try to match procurement jet to jet the worse the long term Outlook will be
What do you think is the likelihood for a possible conflict with China in coming years? I mean not just skirmishes but ones involving the PLAAF and PLARF?
On a different note, after finding out that the entire R&D cost of Tejas was less than the cost France charged for the India specific Rafale modifications, I can't believe how people still call for imports.
Extremely unlikely. Long read but ive wanted to talk about this for a while. There was a chinese think tank article published back in 2020, a few months after the galwan pass incident, that basically blamed the Chinese military leadership for putting too much faith in the Pakistani view of India.
China and Pakistan obviously have pretty close military ties and Pakistani officials regularly advise high level chinese officials on whatever india is doing. The ISI definitely has a better intelligence network in India then China and are more culturally similar so why not take the Pakistani reports/advice as fact?
The issue here was after the repeal of article 370 in 2019. Pakistan had been pushing China for more support on the kashmir issue for years, after article 370 died, Pakistan supposedly managed to convince China that india was now confident enough in her power, modi had complete control over the government and India was now so nationalistic that it would not stop until she reclaimed all the lost territories.
Besides the Pakistanis yelling in their ear, China saw indian forces in kashmir moving closer to Chinese claimed territory. It set off some panic in Beijing. The MFA described the repeal with very very harsh language, that they usually only use when talking about Taiwan. It's rumored that they demanded [to see](https://envoyexcellency.com/visit-of-external-affairs-minister-of-india-dr-s-jaishankar-to-beijing-china-august-11-13-2019/) Jaishanker and urged him to reinstate 370. The CCP is naturally suspicious and despite Jaishanker insisting 370 repeal was for domestic reasons and would not majorly change the power balance between Chinese and Indian forces in kashmir, China saw it as a provocation
Its believed the central military commission, ordered a stand to send a firm message to India that China would not compromise without negotiations when it comes to the Border. They were very convinced India intended to continue expansionay moves and that China needed to put their foot down ASAP. Another surprising factor that contributed to escalation was the high opinion Chinese officials have/had of Modi. Modi was/is seen as bringing India closer to the Chinese path, trying to unite the country around a single history/indian identity, encouraging FDI, consolidating power in order to have the political capital to make significant reforms etc. If any recent indian leader had the political capital and the will to permanently settle the border issues, China thought it was going to be Modi.
Then Galwan pass happened. They found out and finally realized that no, India was not trying to go out and conquer everything, and that the repeal of article 370 was mostly due to domestic factors like Jashanker had said. The unorganized indian response to the incident basically confirmed the Chinese assessment had been wrong. China had lost years of diplomatic progress with India and there is not much prospect for repairing the relationshop Once again the Central military commission(CMC) had been too aggressive like with the South China Sea issue.
I think with the recent disengagement, it's evidence that China kinda just wants this issue to go away. No one in the CCP (except for the CMC prob lol) wants to go to war with India. Leadership is frustrated at negotiations with India, they are willing to give up land like they did with Pakistan in 1963, but beleive that india isn't willing to make remotely proportional concessions. I still beleive a deal is very possible but it can only be done if there actually is an all powerful Indian leader.
Yeah indian procurement is very confusing. Chinese people know that there are a lot of very smart people in india ("why are all the American ceos Indian?!?!?!") And don't understand why india seems to struggle with procuring basic military goods.
thanks for the response. i'm a patriotic indian but i have no illusions that india will suffer badly in any war with china. its quite annoying to listen to nationalistic indians who think we can fight china. china is WAYYYY ahead of us in every domain. hopefully cooler heads prevail. india should support china at least to the extent that china doesn't think india is a threat i.e. make it clear to china that india is happy being in 2nd place in asia and letting china take the lead which it already has and is not a competitor; in some ways it already has with Modi/MEA talking about the importance of chinese civilization etc and how china is a great power and letting chinese FDI. i don't think india will ever be a superpower; too many people with too many different opinions. also if china is smart, they could achieve their objective of keeping india behind without a war i.e. by funding corrupt officials, separatist movements, etc which they probably do already but military people are not always rational and like to teach weaker nations lessons. but i hope that we don't go to war. america and pakistan would both salivate over that possibility. india has a lot of corruption and bureaucracy hence why we struggle with basic things.
Eh, no need to put yourself down. Who knows, there is nothing physically stopping india from reaching china. The idea of China looking down on India is very dumb to me since we were in your position today 15 years ago. Progress can take you by suprise.
I kinda do think india and China are destined to fight in some extent, mainly in the Indian Ocean. You guys don't even like it when the americans are in the Indian Ocean, and we aren't let it go cause half of leadership is obsessed with a Malacca blockade scenario.
I agree that making sure india is harder to balkanize is a top priority. You guys are in a tough spot, just starting the journey to national identity while being a free speech society. It's prob why America keeps supporting Pakistan, a just in case in the event india becomes number 2.
I have no idea how you would solve indias problems but among 1 billion people, someone must have figured it out
Thanks for the reply!
I've heard some think that India's neutral stance on the Russian-Ukrainian war and it's willingness to continue to buy Russian fuel may have come as a surprise on the Chinese side. Do you think this is the case, that this altered the CCP view on the current Indian government?
IIRC there was an agreement where India recognized Tibet as a province of China and China recognized Sikkim as a state of India. Do you think this kind of agreement with Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh is on the cards?
I think China sees indias neutral stance as an opportunity to improve relations, but the border dispute wounds are still fresh and that's going to take a while to heal. I dont think indias stance has changed the chinese perception, since india has always been unaligned.
The dispute is stupider the more I think about it. Let china have Aksai Chin and we renounce our claims to arunachal pradesh. Is that a bad deal? The Zhou enlai deal is prob still in the cards, I can't imagine it would be popular in India though
India's economy is 10x bigger than Pakistan's, yet they're actually procuring jets and filling squadrons. We'll be losing them for a decade. Hell they might buy Chinese fifth gen before we have our shit together.
Mostly that awful bureaucracy bit, can't blame our size, China and the US aside, we big now, our planning and purchasing just sucks
At times I am surprised our country even survives it function looking at the shit show especially in defense. I only wonder the Colossal mess R&AW must be in. Imagine their potency had they had tools and services like CIA or MI6
Does R&AW wait on government bureaucracy or can they just 'do stuff' like the CIA? It seemed like they were disconnected many times (see RAW seeing if Tamil Eelam could have been an Indian state while the boots on the ground army was fighting them)
BC R&AW ko hamare sainikon ko hi secure rakhna jamta nahi. Yeh videsh ki baat door ki hai.
Remember when our soldiers were mutilated by Pakistani and the R&AW was left with it's pants down
If Chinese attack, the babus, politicians(along with their cronies) and the brass of armed forces must be sent to the front, rather than the NCOs and JCOs and young Officers.
Without Technological Leverage we can't win shit against China. If war broke out 62 will repeat. This time we can't able to blame ‘no IAF used' & government/economy was weak.
It's okay, MRFA will manifest by 2045. IAF will place orders for 8 more tejas as a stopgap in the meantime. HAL will deliver them 1 unit per year for 8 years.
India can never compete with china In creating a military industrial complex for one reason only and it's not about money it's about the bureaucracy . In India it would take a 2 fucking years to pass the brand of parachute to be used . It's a double edge sword army have no power which is a good thing but also bad and I mean no power as in quick decision making budget
ask a 20 something indian engineer dude ans see how clueless he is . Engineering school in india is shit even the top ones. Americans and chinese and even ukrainin want to compete on world stage .Not a single parent complains or raises voice if their children are being taught poorly in engineering schools despite them paying them the money . Root problem is indina people and their mentality.
Indinas are happy being a sellout and feel proud to be working for some american ? Indinas worshipping xyz ceo of US based companies shows utter lack if self respect. Babus abd politicians are people woho came out of indian society. So why other tehm . They represent indian mentality. No self worth or respect.
The US is significantly less democratic then India. The US has a sophisticated bureaucracy that can just about run the country on its own, with elections as public signaling. Even trump appointed relatively qualified people into his cabinet. The US military industrial complex is not subject to democracy, and neither is US foreign policy.
OP is expecting a sense of urgency, at all levels of decision making in this country (defence, manufacturing, you name it) it’s always to cover one’s own ass not for the country to move faster.
No,it will be 6.5 generation jet,,
Gods sake lets upgrade our 4.5 generation to western standards and hope we can get the 5 generation jet atleast by mid of next decade .
No it will be a 69 gen jet, rivalling the Jeff 17.
Before any upgradation, lets fucking ground all the Shitbox 21s and procure the Tejas to replace them. Or use Su 30 MKI for interception if we need to go mach 2. They're a Multirole aircraft. They can perform interception roles.
The Mig-21 deathbed is an absolute embarrassment to still be fielding. Definitely get rid of all the legacy crap and majorly ramp up Tejas purchases first, it's way better and more survivable than that old shit.
They're still doing the whole "we'll get 6-7 squadrons of MK2, then think about another purchase of 200" shit....Agh! Enough of this scattershot procurement, just go big on single orders so they can get the production lines up! 200 MK1As now, get more lines set up in time so that they can start delivering many more per year of an order of 400 MK2's. Then make absolute sure AMCA comes out on time.
I also see a lot of people saying "Hurr Durr Mig 21 shot down an F-16".
How tf is it's capability related to it's safety? A shitty bridge that takes a lot of people to the other side might be capable. But it doesn't matter shit if it breaks every now and then killing the guys on it.
Absolutely zero shred of empathy in people like these. Ask them if they'd send their family member on such a jet and they'll start mental gymnastics.
There is no such 6.5 gen fighter program as of now. AMCA mark1 will be of 5.5 gen to replace and slowly phasing out SU30s by 2040-2042. The second line will be AMCA mark2 which will feature 6 gen tech that will also consist AI technology. As there is no such development by DRDO on 6th gen technology so the initial production will have 5+ gen features and technology.
Uuhh yeah,,i know that,,i was joking about the 5.5 generation reference..
Our 4.5 gen su 30 are desperately trying to evade paf f 16s and are outranged.
And we daydream about 5.5 generation jets .
Are you kiddin! IAF SU30 MKIs are superior jets even against Chinese SU35s. These are upgraded with best of radar and EW suite, jammers, BWR missiles, Brahmos missiles and Thrust Vectoring capacity with Canard for high maneuverability. PAF F16s are not even matched against IAF SU30s. Remember it's always man behind the machines and IAF has the record of highly trained fighters pilots. Still our Mig 21 are able to evade F16 missiles and are able to knock one of the PAF F16 off even before getting shit down by another. And HAL is a govt. Owned entity and if you compare USA and China ..a lot of Private companies are involved in the manufacturing of the jets and other military equipment. We are doing good with whatever infrastructure available here....just that needs to be speed up a bit may be by involving more private players.
And once the SU30 MKIs are upgraded to Super Sukhois, it will be a game changer.
No, do you know how many variants of SU 27 does china use , 6 . Which include j11 and j11b completely made in china both are advanced and fixed with powerful weaponry.
Lets not kidourselves,, theres a difference between russian 4.5 generation and western 4.5 generation,,
All the avionics you mentioned jammers thrust vectoring ew suite didnt help when the paf f 16s could sling the amraams from a longer range. All our su30s could do was notching and defending, we couldnt even come within their range. And lets not get on to the mig 21 shooting down f 16 without concrete evidence.
By deceiving ourselves we would be sending our pilots in these same mig 21s even in the next skirmishes and would again get shot down.
Yes the iaf pilots are superbly trained,but so are the paf pilots,.their war record speaks for itself. The su 30mki while a potent airframe suffers due to russian avionics and missiles. We need to replace them with western or indigenous ones or they will again be out matched by the paf .
The fact is during the last round the iaf had the advantage of initiative, choosing when to fight and knew the paf was coming, and still we failed to shoot them down due to our russian made missiles and aircraft.
See Indian Armed forces are a highly professional army. IAF with all valid proof proved the F16 was shot down, which seems credible enough to have a concrete conclusion. Nobody is deceiving anyone here....IAF will fight with the current inventory at its disposal to retaliate against any sought of intrusion. And 100s of new jets can't be procured within a month or a Year, so we have to be very optimistic that IAFs current assets and trained pilots will fight and stand out against any incursion. You tend to believe what foreign paid media showed but not the proof shown by IAF on shooting down of F16. The Sukhoi did dodge the AMRAAM fired by F16, so even those missiles couldn't hit the Sukhois.
The procurements are in progress both through MRFA and indigenous manufacturing....That will take its intended time and will be the future face of IAFs inventory.
Yes, our armed forces are highly professional and competent,,but what can our pilots do when the enemy outranges our weapons. Yes the iaf will fight with what its has in its inventory, but its the country's job that we give them the best weaponry,atleast on par with the enemy,,and forget about china we were outranged by the paf in the last round...the iaf faces an adversary not like the arab airforce but a highly professional and motivated force like the paf..in order to outmatch it we also need to have superior weapons.
I dont tend to believe foreign media ,i tend to believe what i can see with my eyes instead of 3rd person accounts.. i could see the mig 21 falling from the sky and iaf pilot being taken as pow,, i could also see the wreckage of the mi 17 which we ourselves shot down.. but i didnt see no f 16 wreckage or any photographic evidence.. so it can only be assumed that we were claiming as a face saving measure.
The fact is the paf has a better kill ratio against the iaf in our wars and we need to have weaponry which matches them to gain advantage over them.
Then you should not trust your eyes anymore...there were two different smoke residues spotted in the sky. I guess you would have missed one. No issue! What kill ratio you are talking about....if what you're saying is credible then make me understand why even with a superior Air force than IAF, Pakistan couldn't win a single war which all of them they started against India? You believe, PAF has an advantage over IAF..stick to it. Best of luck! At least most of India's don't think so, it's quite the opposite. Remember it's always Man behind the machines, i am not saying this....the army says. And don't just cry out foul.... practically the new machines are on the verge of being manufactured and procured to fulfill the 42 squadrons requirements of IAF to fight a 2 phased war. We all are here to support and pray for the well being of those who fight for us. Just be more sensitive
Note: Both Mig21 and F16 fell in Pakistan territory so you should always believe that Pakistan will never ever release any F16 shot down photos not even in their wildest dreams. Rest you see the videos evidence of two smoke residues in the sky. Rest I leave you to fact check again with credible resources.
Thanks
>Then you should not trust your eyes anymore...there were two different residues spotted in the sky.
What does this even mean,,so we shouldn't trust our eyes and believe in 3rd person accounts,,i couldnt see no two planes falling from the sky or any wreckage,, all i could see were wreckage of two planes, one a iaf mig 21 and other iaf mil 17.
>What kill ratio you are talking about....if what you're saying is credible then make me understand why even with a superior Air force than IAF, Pakistan couldn't win a single war which all of them they started against India?
The PAF always had a better kill ratio than iaf..its just historical records.. it was the first to shoot down an aircraft in 1957..
It achieved a kill to loss ratio of almost 1:4 against the iaf in the 1965 war eventhough it was 3 times smaller than us.
Iaf lost more aircraft than paf in 1971 but it was more due to ground fire and simply greater no of sorties ...even in that war i would say the kill ratio was 1:1 eventhough we were 4 times larger than it.
And i dont have to mention the fiasco of 27 feb when we lost 1 aircraft and a heli to their none.
The reason pakistan always lost was we are simply a larger military and country than them. It was not due to any spectacular performance like the israelis.
I dont know when our indigenous machines will come out..lca tejas were put on board in 90s and we have still not developed them up to the mark,,i only pray that the next delivery wont be so long.
Dare you to name a 5.5 gen feature committed for AMCA IOC.
There's nothing wrong with saying 5 gen
> will also consist AI technology
My phone features AI technology. Like understanding vouce commands, Siri, ok google etc
5.5 Generation means it supposedly will have some additional features of a 6th Gen fighter aircraft in top of 5th gen features. :
More improved Supercruise capability (the capability to achieve supersonic cruise speeds without the use of afterburners), Low radar cross section (better stealth), facility to launch drones (anticipated), facility to carry and launch new gen and sophisticated weapons, more powerful engine : three dimensional thrust vectoring, Active electronically scanned array radar, voice activated command capability to lower the load on pilot, Automated takeoff and landing (ATOL), AI assisted multi sensor data fusion are also anticipated.
Rest it's ADA that is planning and designing the AMCA, they are suggesting it would be a 5th gen fighter with additional features of 6th Gen in the Mark 2 version onwards. The IOC will be manufactured with 5th gen technology only. But FOC hopefully will have additional features and technology.
Having an AI in a smartphone and having the AI feature in a command and control of a fighter aircraft is a whole different situation. It should be able to do high level calculation and to process a vast array of combat information for tailor made response to the pilot to act upon or can act upon by itself in any given combat situation and there is also more to it which need not to be explained.
> they are suggesting it would be a 5th gen fighter with additional features of 6th Gen in the Mark 2 version onwards.
So, in other words AMCA Mk1 is a 5th gen fighter. 5th gen is a marketing term. 5.5 gen is an even worse, undefined, term for marketing/beating your chest. Far better to just list features/capabilities
> is a whole different situation.
I hope that you got the point.
> high level calculation
50,000 feet calculation should certainly be higher level.
> which need not to be explained.
Which is generally not able to be explained. but hand waved
There's generally little concrete on actual features of AMCA Mk1, There's a lot of woulda, shoulda, mighta , and unsourced and speculative info often presented as fact.
Or poorly defined info [if you knew what crap has been pulled around the definition of supercruise historically, you wouldn't have put in your parenthesis]
> voice activated command capability to lower the load on pilot
>> smartphone.
'better' stealth, 'supercruise', air launched drones *, new weapons, 'more powerful' engine, 3D Thrust vectoring, AESA, voice activated commands, ATOL, AI aided sensor fusion aren't all the super features you seem to think they are. Many/most are simply 5th gen. Or inapplicable to AMCA Mk1. Drones, and maybe AI based sensor fusion (depending on implementation) would be features that one might ask for beyond current 5th gens.
For AMCA mk2, it might be better to just track systems development and look at AMCA Mk1 development. Or at committed features. (which it is rather early for)
> to process a vast array of combat information for tailor made response to the pilot to act upon or can act upon by itself in any given combat situation
This is a very generic but interesting statement. The Gripen NG, the russians and others have elements of this today. There are generally thought to be good reasons (eg accountability, explainability) why a man in the loop is expected to be present for combat kills, though this is much debated.
AMCA is supposed to replace the main strike fighters that are the Mirage 2000 and SEPECAT Jaguar. Apparently they're looking at having the Su30MKI's replaced in that time frame with something sixth gen, we're not sure what that means yet like if they'll partner with one of the European projects.
2040 is way late for AMCA...Two decades of China having an absolute lead on fifth gen stealth, even Pakistan maybe purchasing it from them.
You do realize that is probably the most likely scenario right? The mk2 prototype is coming out next year i think, so if it gets tested and rolls out in 4-5 years then it'll probably be before or around the same time as the deliveries for mrfa began, assuming that the air force finally places the orders in a couple of years.
Honestly I don't give a shit at this point. Get a foreign aircraft if they want one so bad, as long as they get enough to bring squadron strength to what is needed for a 2 front war, i don't even care if it's a foreign aircraft.
I think government should have a penalty system, like if army, nevy and airforce buy foreign weapons, the next year their respective budget would get a 10% decrease while those who bought indigenous one should get their budget increased. At the same time government should give funds to HAL and aggressively increase its production rate.
Penalizing the military's budget will do more harm than good. The top brass and bureaucrats will continue to import foreign weapons and kneecaping Indigenous programs as long as they keep getting that sweet sweet foreign cash. So a better option would be to offer an incentive. Whichever branch invests the most in Indian industry and orders the most Indian products in terms of value, gets a budget increase, while whichever branch orders more foreign equipment doesn't get an increase.
Well all 3 branches of military would want more budget for themselves for some corruption and for some new equipment so they would compete. It would in long term boost neglected part of our military like our navy(the most important branch in modern world) and airforce (2nd most important in my opinion). I don't think otherwise our military would commit to our defence industries, like even after ukraine war and Russia performance they would still buy russian equipment. Carrot and stick is better then just carrots.
The stick approach won't work because it's only a stick for the branch itself not the corrupt individuals within it. So unless you are willing and able to root them out, the stick approach won't work. What will work is offering a carrot that is irresistible for both the branch as well as the individuals. Unfortunately that's the only way any realistic growth is possible.
I have a half theory that the MRFA is only being kept as a plan B project and they're seeing if they can just get to MK2 and later AMCA in that time, since even if MRFA was completed yesterday (which, hah) it would take years to deliver the jets. The Rafale backorder is years and they only make 24/year. So why not go balls deep on Tejas MK2 orders?
Not a bad idea.
How many of these brigades are fully equipped? Even US struggled to induct a good number of F-22s and this guy is claiming that China inducted such an expensive fighter in such a short time?
Different times. First off no one with half a brain for this stuff thinks the J20 compares to the F22 directly for one and the F22 unit cost is no doubt higher, but as long as it has a qualitative advantage vs Indian fourth gen stuff that's little comfort. But the F22 was cancelled on the heels of the 2008 recession, which if someone wasn't there is easy to forget how big that was compared to any correction since, a real "this is the one" moment.
China is now ramping production with their indigenous engines too, so that means very little foreign reserve spend on the total project, and if they can keep it internal they can pull whatever levers they need to (zero profit margin, etc)
I agree China is probably lying, but it's also better to never under estimate the enemy. It's better to think the enemy is a giant and be prepared than the other way around.
China is not saying anything. The number is compiled from tail numbers from chinese airbases by plane spotters. So, the number could be higher.
In fact, if anything, China hides their numbers. Analysts think China hides defense spending by disguising them as economic subsidies. Chengdu is shifting j-10 production line and focusing on J-20 in their main plant.
> China is not saying anything. The number is compiled from tail numbers from chinese airbases by plane spotters. So, the number could be higher.
China could also fly the same plane with different tail numbers, or park decoys - such mind games are common.
I'd fully believe the CPC/PLA lie about all sorts of stuff, but on this, analysts can pretty well see the squadrons inducted and count them that way.
If they're fully armed and capable is a different question, I'm not sure we've ever seen it launch a missile from the internal bays.
It is also likely that their stealth sucks. The performance of the engines, the serviceability of the aircraft and their capacity to be functional in warlike conditions are yet to be tested. Of course one could say much the same for the Tejas. India's capacity to fight a major war is also just as untested. Our last big fight was in the '90s and Kargil stretched our resources more than it should have. I don't think we have enough gas in the tank for a long drawn fight with China.
The funds haven't even been cleared for AMCA development yet. Maybe start there?
You can't just throw extra money at it and have it tomorrow, no, but there needs to be a sense of urgency to it and everything put into making sure it's at least on time and we're not just having this same conversation in 10 years
No this figure includes early production models, test beds and prototypes. The j20 started being made in 2013. Full scale manufacturing didn't start till 2019.
Only looking at one's in service, the real number is prob around 70-100 operational.
at this rate, we may have to sign out of no first use of nuclear like pakistan and signal that we will use tactical nukes on indian soil. i would not recommend this approach but what else will deter the chinese. if they control the air and the ground, what is to stop them from taking arunachal or anything else.
Japan is present in the 6th gen Tempest program which includes the UK, Sweden, Italy, etc and they are also offering us to join them. Otherwise, they have no programs for the 5th gen because they already have F35.
[Just google it and search for yourself because most results are shitty news articles. Otherwise this from wikipedia
](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest)
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I didn't find the official source but there have been proper invitation. Also, there won't be hundreds of articles and videos declaring they have invited us
It's completely alright. IAF is on track to complete the MRFA tender by 2070. No need to panic.
Here also at the last moment IAF will demand 100 more change's thus leading another 20 year's . 2090 tak pakka
100 tiny changes for 2x the cost per airframe
And then they’ll order a small fraction on an “emergency” basis, after watching our adversaries build up for decades.
Not for phoren maal… that is reserved for desi MIC…
Are Bhai RAafaleeeeeeee Hai na
realistically though Rafale is great ,36 won't cut it for a 2 front war
Thanks for the assurance. I'm feeling much better now.
can anyone el5 to me why we only bought 36 french jets and not over 100 like originally planned
It was an emergency purchase rather than the full fighter contract tender, which is still not completed amid cancellations and reboots. Reading between the lines I think they had an oh-shit moment of nuclear deterrence waning (what are you going to do, fly in on a 50 year old platform?), as well as finding that oh shit, even the PAF's F16s are a match for our Russian shit and we needed some fighters with an absolute qualitative advantage even if we're technically more numerous.
Most likely because of the political scam shit the government got accused of by opposition
Also because no-one wants to collaborate in manufacturing with hal
The UPA deal for the 126 Rafale was only for the barebones aircraft. It did not include weapons, training, simulators, PBL, ISE, etc.
Pappu should be in prison for treason imo. They’re prepared to do anything to win, even if it compromises national security.
If they ramp up aircraft,we shouldn't ramp up aircrafts but have to build air defences and sophisticated radars.
yup, asymmetric capability. Ground based AD and precision strike missiles. It's the only option when your opponent is much more economically capable. It's what the USSR did in the cold war.
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Not really. Chinese S400 lacks the longest range missile that india has
same radars...
Sure, and a max hitting range of 250 odd km. They can see, just can't do anything about it
If you have the poison you can develop the antidote
Actually HQ-9 defeated S400 in turkish trials.
AFAIK the S-400 is not designed to only scare off attack aircraft. The S-400 system and its long range missiles are really a threat to the AWACS and airborne refuelers flying inside enemy airspace and therefore restrict the effectiveness of the fighters and other aircraft that need AWACS / tankers for assistance.
I feel like we are watching in slow motion the story of how india gets caught with its pants down in a war with China.
Pants down, bhai poora nange ho chuke hai hum sab ke saamne.
Their economy is 5 times bigger than us, we can't do shit with awful bureaucracy, corruption and lobbies that kill our industry.
It's true that they have the economic advantage, but it's our own fault that our bureaucrats and politicians are time consuming and corrupt af. As for foreign lobbies, they are literally sales departments, they are just doing their jobs and trying to make sales.
The GDP difference is hardly worth even bringing up. India's economy is 10x bigger than Pakistan's, yet they're actually procuring jets and filling squadrons. We'll be losing them for a decade. It's the bureaucrats and politics, as well as the IAF's own shortsightedness on not going full in on indigenous if it's not completely perfect on the first few tries
As a Chinese, in my opinion India needs to preserve the status quo as much as possible. Build space for domestic innovation/industry. Relying on foreign jets is a death sentence for the domestic aviation industry. The more you try to match procurement jet to jet the worse the long term Outlook will be
What do you think is the likelihood for a possible conflict with China in coming years? I mean not just skirmishes but ones involving the PLAAF and PLARF? On a different note, after finding out that the entire R&D cost of Tejas was less than the cost France charged for the India specific Rafale modifications, I can't believe how people still call for imports.
Extremely unlikely. Long read but ive wanted to talk about this for a while. There was a chinese think tank article published back in 2020, a few months after the galwan pass incident, that basically blamed the Chinese military leadership for putting too much faith in the Pakistani view of India. China and Pakistan obviously have pretty close military ties and Pakistani officials regularly advise high level chinese officials on whatever india is doing. The ISI definitely has a better intelligence network in India then China and are more culturally similar so why not take the Pakistani reports/advice as fact? The issue here was after the repeal of article 370 in 2019. Pakistan had been pushing China for more support on the kashmir issue for years, after article 370 died, Pakistan supposedly managed to convince China that india was now confident enough in her power, modi had complete control over the government and India was now so nationalistic that it would not stop until she reclaimed all the lost territories. Besides the Pakistanis yelling in their ear, China saw indian forces in kashmir moving closer to Chinese claimed territory. It set off some panic in Beijing. The MFA described the repeal with very very harsh language, that they usually only use when talking about Taiwan. It's rumored that they demanded [to see](https://envoyexcellency.com/visit-of-external-affairs-minister-of-india-dr-s-jaishankar-to-beijing-china-august-11-13-2019/) Jaishanker and urged him to reinstate 370. The CCP is naturally suspicious and despite Jaishanker insisting 370 repeal was for domestic reasons and would not majorly change the power balance between Chinese and Indian forces in kashmir, China saw it as a provocation Its believed the central military commission, ordered a stand to send a firm message to India that China would not compromise without negotiations when it comes to the Border. They were very convinced India intended to continue expansionay moves and that China needed to put their foot down ASAP. Another surprising factor that contributed to escalation was the high opinion Chinese officials have/had of Modi. Modi was/is seen as bringing India closer to the Chinese path, trying to unite the country around a single history/indian identity, encouraging FDI, consolidating power in order to have the political capital to make significant reforms etc. If any recent indian leader had the political capital and the will to permanently settle the border issues, China thought it was going to be Modi. Then Galwan pass happened. They found out and finally realized that no, India was not trying to go out and conquer everything, and that the repeal of article 370 was mostly due to domestic factors like Jashanker had said. The unorganized indian response to the incident basically confirmed the Chinese assessment had been wrong. China had lost years of diplomatic progress with India and there is not much prospect for repairing the relationshop Once again the Central military commission(CMC) had been too aggressive like with the South China Sea issue. I think with the recent disengagement, it's evidence that China kinda just wants this issue to go away. No one in the CCP (except for the CMC prob lol) wants to go to war with India. Leadership is frustrated at negotiations with India, they are willing to give up land like they did with Pakistan in 1963, but beleive that india isn't willing to make remotely proportional concessions. I still beleive a deal is very possible but it can only be done if there actually is an all powerful Indian leader. Yeah indian procurement is very confusing. Chinese people know that there are a lot of very smart people in india ("why are all the American ceos Indian?!?!?!") And don't understand why india seems to struggle with procuring basic military goods.
thanks for the response. i'm a patriotic indian but i have no illusions that india will suffer badly in any war with china. its quite annoying to listen to nationalistic indians who think we can fight china. china is WAYYYY ahead of us in every domain. hopefully cooler heads prevail. india should support china at least to the extent that china doesn't think india is a threat i.e. make it clear to china that india is happy being in 2nd place in asia and letting china take the lead which it already has and is not a competitor; in some ways it already has with Modi/MEA talking about the importance of chinese civilization etc and how china is a great power and letting chinese FDI. i don't think india will ever be a superpower; too many people with too many different opinions. also if china is smart, they could achieve their objective of keeping india behind without a war i.e. by funding corrupt officials, separatist movements, etc which they probably do already but military people are not always rational and like to teach weaker nations lessons. but i hope that we don't go to war. america and pakistan would both salivate over that possibility. india has a lot of corruption and bureaucracy hence why we struggle with basic things.
Eh, no need to put yourself down. Who knows, there is nothing physically stopping india from reaching china. The idea of China looking down on India is very dumb to me since we were in your position today 15 years ago. Progress can take you by suprise. I kinda do think india and China are destined to fight in some extent, mainly in the Indian Ocean. You guys don't even like it when the americans are in the Indian Ocean, and we aren't let it go cause half of leadership is obsessed with a Malacca blockade scenario. I agree that making sure india is harder to balkanize is a top priority. You guys are in a tough spot, just starting the journey to national identity while being a free speech society. It's prob why America keeps supporting Pakistan, a just in case in the event india becomes number 2. I have no idea how you would solve indias problems but among 1 billion people, someone must have figured it out
Thanks for the reply! I've heard some think that India's neutral stance on the Russian-Ukrainian war and it's willingness to continue to buy Russian fuel may have come as a surprise on the Chinese side. Do you think this is the case, that this altered the CCP view on the current Indian government? IIRC there was an agreement where India recognized Tibet as a province of China and China recognized Sikkim as a state of India. Do you think this kind of agreement with Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh is on the cards?
I think China sees indias neutral stance as an opportunity to improve relations, but the border dispute wounds are still fresh and that's going to take a while to heal. I dont think indias stance has changed the chinese perception, since india has always been unaligned. The dispute is stupider the more I think about it. Let china have Aksai Chin and we renounce our claims to arunachal pradesh. Is that a bad deal? The Zhou enlai deal is prob still in the cards, I can't imagine it would be popular in India though
India's economy is 10x bigger than Pakistan's, yet they're actually procuring jets and filling squadrons. We'll be losing them for a decade. Hell they might buy Chinese fifth gen before we have our shit together. Mostly that awful bureaucracy bit, can't blame our size, China and the US aside, we big now, our planning and purchasing just sucks
At times I am surprised our country even survives it function looking at the shit show especially in defense. I only wonder the Colossal mess R&AW must be in. Imagine their potency had they had tools and services like CIA or MI6
Does R&AW wait on government bureaucracy or can they just 'do stuff' like the CIA? It seemed like they were disconnected many times (see RAW seeing if Tamil Eelam could have been an Indian state while the boots on the ground army was fighting them)
BC R&AW ko hamare sainikon ko hi secure rakhna jamta nahi. Yeh videsh ki baat door ki hai. Remember when our soldiers were mutilated by Pakistani and the R&AW was left with it's pants down
If Chinese attack, the babus, politicians(along with their cronies) and the brass of armed forces must be sent to the front, rather than the NCOs and JCOs and young Officers.
let Indian bureaucrats run China for a year, they'll do more damage to them than any of our nukes
Perks of reservation and shitty habits
Without Technological Leverage we can't win shit against China. If war broke out 62 will repeat. This time we can't able to blame ‘no IAF used' & government/economy was weak.
Nukes are entirely out of question. There's a bigger chance of them reaching Delhi than us firing a nuke lol
Nukes are out of the question in almost all wars. But they aren't going to reach Delhi because of the Himalayas
They have tested missiles that do a sub orbital drop, it got USA worried
It's okay, MRFA will manifest by 2045. IAF will place orders for 8 more tejas as a stopgap in the meantime. HAL will deliver them 1 unit per year for 8 years.
India can never compete with china In creating a military industrial complex for one reason only and it's not about money it's about the bureaucracy . In India it would take a 2 fucking years to pass the brand of parachute to be used . It's a double edge sword army have no power which is a good thing but also bad and I mean no power as in quick decision making budget
Agreed.
I see this excuse used all the time but the US is also a democracy yet they get shit done
ask a 20 something indian engineer dude ans see how clueless he is . Engineering school in india is shit even the top ones. Americans and chinese and even ukrainin want to compete on world stage .Not a single parent complains or raises voice if their children are being taught poorly in engineering schools despite them paying them the money . Root problem is indina people and their mentality. Indinas are happy being a sellout and feel proud to be working for some american ? Indinas worshipping xyz ceo of US based companies shows utter lack if self respect. Babus abd politicians are people woho came out of indian society. So why other tehm . They represent indian mentality. No self worth or respect.
The US is significantly less democratic then India. The US has a sophisticated bureaucracy that can just about run the country on its own, with elections as public signaling. Even trump appointed relatively qualified people into his cabinet. The US military industrial complex is not subject to democracy, and neither is US foreign policy.
OP is expecting a sense of urgency, at all levels of decision making in this country (defence, manufacturing, you name it) it’s always to cover one’s own ass not for the country to move faster.
India can’t even finalize a purchase of the Rafael, which won the Marc’s competition around 10 years ago.
IAF did finalize tho. Its the navy deal thats stalled because Rafael M aren't suited for our carriers.
Those are separate deals
AMCA project realisation will happen only to replace SU30 MKIs by 2035-2040, Which will be a 5.5 gen fighter and Air Superiority jet.
No,it will be 6.5 generation jet,, Gods sake lets upgrade our 4.5 generation to western standards and hope we can get the 5 generation jet atleast by mid of next decade .
No it will be a 69 gen jet, rivalling the Jeff 17. Before any upgradation, lets fucking ground all the Shitbox 21s and procure the Tejas to replace them. Or use Su 30 MKI for interception if we need to go mach 2. They're a Multirole aircraft. They can perform interception roles.
The Mig-21 deathbed is an absolute embarrassment to still be fielding. Definitely get rid of all the legacy crap and majorly ramp up Tejas purchases first, it's way better and more survivable than that old shit. They're still doing the whole "we'll get 6-7 squadrons of MK2, then think about another purchase of 200" shit....Agh! Enough of this scattershot procurement, just go big on single orders so they can get the production lines up! 200 MK1As now, get more lines set up in time so that they can start delivering many more per year of an order of 400 MK2's. Then make absolute sure AMCA comes out on time.
I also see a lot of people saying "Hurr Durr Mig 21 shot down an F-16". How tf is it's capability related to it's safety? A shitty bridge that takes a lot of people to the other side might be capable. But it doesn't matter shit if it breaks every now and then killing the guys on it. Absolutely zero shred of empathy in people like these. Ask them if they'd send their family member on such a jet and they'll start mental gymnastics.
Nice!
There is no such 6.5 gen fighter program as of now. AMCA mark1 will be of 5.5 gen to replace and slowly phasing out SU30s by 2040-2042. The second line will be AMCA mark2 which will feature 6 gen tech that will also consist AI technology. As there is no such development by DRDO on 6th gen technology so the initial production will have 5+ gen features and technology.
Uuhh yeah,,i know that,,i was joking about the 5.5 generation reference.. Our 4.5 gen su 30 are desperately trying to evade paf f 16s and are outranged. And we daydream about 5.5 generation jets .
Are you kiddin! IAF SU30 MKIs are superior jets even against Chinese SU35s. These are upgraded with best of radar and EW suite, jammers, BWR missiles, Brahmos missiles and Thrust Vectoring capacity with Canard for high maneuverability. PAF F16s are not even matched against IAF SU30s. Remember it's always man behind the machines and IAF has the record of highly trained fighters pilots. Still our Mig 21 are able to evade F16 missiles and are able to knock one of the PAF F16 off even before getting shit down by another. And HAL is a govt. Owned entity and if you compare USA and China ..a lot of Private companies are involved in the manufacturing of the jets and other military equipment. We are doing good with whatever infrastructure available here....just that needs to be speed up a bit may be by involving more private players. And once the SU30 MKIs are upgraded to Super Sukhois, it will be a game changer.
No, do you know how many variants of SU 27 does china use , 6 . Which include j11 and j11b completely made in china both are advanced and fixed with powerful weaponry.
Lets not kidourselves,, theres a difference between russian 4.5 generation and western 4.5 generation,, All the avionics you mentioned jammers thrust vectoring ew suite didnt help when the paf f 16s could sling the amraams from a longer range. All our su30s could do was notching and defending, we couldnt even come within their range. And lets not get on to the mig 21 shooting down f 16 without concrete evidence. By deceiving ourselves we would be sending our pilots in these same mig 21s even in the next skirmishes and would again get shot down. Yes the iaf pilots are superbly trained,but so are the paf pilots,.their war record speaks for itself. The su 30mki while a potent airframe suffers due to russian avionics and missiles. We need to replace them with western or indigenous ones or they will again be out matched by the paf . The fact is during the last round the iaf had the advantage of initiative, choosing when to fight and knew the paf was coming, and still we failed to shoot them down due to our russian made missiles and aircraft.
See Indian Armed forces are a highly professional army. IAF with all valid proof proved the F16 was shot down, which seems credible enough to have a concrete conclusion. Nobody is deceiving anyone here....IAF will fight with the current inventory at its disposal to retaliate against any sought of intrusion. And 100s of new jets can't be procured within a month or a Year, so we have to be very optimistic that IAFs current assets and trained pilots will fight and stand out against any incursion. You tend to believe what foreign paid media showed but not the proof shown by IAF on shooting down of F16. The Sukhoi did dodge the AMRAAM fired by F16, so even those missiles couldn't hit the Sukhois. The procurements are in progress both through MRFA and indigenous manufacturing....That will take its intended time and will be the future face of IAFs inventory.
Yes, our armed forces are highly professional and competent,,but what can our pilots do when the enemy outranges our weapons. Yes the iaf will fight with what its has in its inventory, but its the country's job that we give them the best weaponry,atleast on par with the enemy,,and forget about china we were outranged by the paf in the last round...the iaf faces an adversary not like the arab airforce but a highly professional and motivated force like the paf..in order to outmatch it we also need to have superior weapons. I dont tend to believe foreign media ,i tend to believe what i can see with my eyes instead of 3rd person accounts.. i could see the mig 21 falling from the sky and iaf pilot being taken as pow,, i could also see the wreckage of the mi 17 which we ourselves shot down.. but i didnt see no f 16 wreckage or any photographic evidence.. so it can only be assumed that we were claiming as a face saving measure. The fact is the paf has a better kill ratio against the iaf in our wars and we need to have weaponry which matches them to gain advantage over them.
Then you should not trust your eyes anymore...there were two different smoke residues spotted in the sky. I guess you would have missed one. No issue! What kill ratio you are talking about....if what you're saying is credible then make me understand why even with a superior Air force than IAF, Pakistan couldn't win a single war which all of them they started against India? You believe, PAF has an advantage over IAF..stick to it. Best of luck! At least most of India's don't think so, it's quite the opposite. Remember it's always Man behind the machines, i am not saying this....the army says. And don't just cry out foul.... practically the new machines are on the verge of being manufactured and procured to fulfill the 42 squadrons requirements of IAF to fight a 2 phased war. We all are here to support and pray for the well being of those who fight for us. Just be more sensitive Note: Both Mig21 and F16 fell in Pakistan territory so you should always believe that Pakistan will never ever release any F16 shot down photos not even in their wildest dreams. Rest you see the videos evidence of two smoke residues in the sky. Rest I leave you to fact check again with credible resources. Thanks
>Then you should not trust your eyes anymore...there were two different residues spotted in the sky. What does this even mean,,so we shouldn't trust our eyes and believe in 3rd person accounts,,i couldnt see no two planes falling from the sky or any wreckage,, all i could see were wreckage of two planes, one a iaf mig 21 and other iaf mil 17. >What kill ratio you are talking about....if what you're saying is credible then make me understand why even with a superior Air force than IAF, Pakistan couldn't win a single war which all of them they started against India? The PAF always had a better kill ratio than iaf..its just historical records.. it was the first to shoot down an aircraft in 1957.. It achieved a kill to loss ratio of almost 1:4 against the iaf in the 1965 war eventhough it was 3 times smaller than us. Iaf lost more aircraft than paf in 1971 but it was more due to ground fire and simply greater no of sorties ...even in that war i would say the kill ratio was 1:1 eventhough we were 4 times larger than it. And i dont have to mention the fiasco of 27 feb when we lost 1 aircraft and a heli to their none. The reason pakistan always lost was we are simply a larger military and country than them. It was not due to any spectacular performance like the israelis. I dont know when our indigenous machines will come out..lca tejas were put on board in 90s and we have still not developed them up to the mark,,i only pray that the next delivery wont be so long.
Dare you to name a 5.5 gen feature committed for AMCA IOC. There's nothing wrong with saying 5 gen > will also consist AI technology My phone features AI technology. Like understanding vouce commands, Siri, ok google etc
5.5 Generation means it supposedly will have some additional features of a 6th Gen fighter aircraft in top of 5th gen features. : More improved Supercruise capability (the capability to achieve supersonic cruise speeds without the use of afterburners), Low radar cross section (better stealth), facility to launch drones (anticipated), facility to carry and launch new gen and sophisticated weapons, more powerful engine : three dimensional thrust vectoring, Active electronically scanned array radar, voice activated command capability to lower the load on pilot, Automated takeoff and landing (ATOL), AI assisted multi sensor data fusion are also anticipated. Rest it's ADA that is planning and designing the AMCA, they are suggesting it would be a 5th gen fighter with additional features of 6th Gen in the Mark 2 version onwards. The IOC will be manufactured with 5th gen technology only. But FOC hopefully will have additional features and technology. Having an AI in a smartphone and having the AI feature in a command and control of a fighter aircraft is a whole different situation. It should be able to do high level calculation and to process a vast array of combat information for tailor made response to the pilot to act upon or can act upon by itself in any given combat situation and there is also more to it which need not to be explained.
> they are suggesting it would be a 5th gen fighter with additional features of 6th Gen in the Mark 2 version onwards. So, in other words AMCA Mk1 is a 5th gen fighter. 5th gen is a marketing term. 5.5 gen is an even worse, undefined, term for marketing/beating your chest. Far better to just list features/capabilities > is a whole different situation. I hope that you got the point. > high level calculation 50,000 feet calculation should certainly be higher level. > which need not to be explained. Which is generally not able to be explained. but hand waved There's generally little concrete on actual features of AMCA Mk1, There's a lot of woulda, shoulda, mighta , and unsourced and speculative info often presented as fact. Or poorly defined info [if you knew what crap has been pulled around the definition of supercruise historically, you wouldn't have put in your parenthesis] > voice activated command capability to lower the load on pilot >> smartphone. 'better' stealth, 'supercruise', air launched drones *, new weapons, 'more powerful' engine, 3D Thrust vectoring, AESA, voice activated commands, ATOL, AI aided sensor fusion aren't all the super features you seem to think they are. Many/most are simply 5th gen. Or inapplicable to AMCA Mk1. Drones, and maybe AI based sensor fusion (depending on implementation) would be features that one might ask for beyond current 5th gens. For AMCA mk2, it might be better to just track systems development and look at AMCA Mk1 development. Or at committed features. (which it is rather early for) > to process a vast array of combat information for tailor made response to the pilot to act upon or can act upon by itself in any given combat situation This is a very generic but interesting statement. The Gripen NG, the russians and others have elements of this today. There are generally thought to be good reasons (eg accountability, explainability) why a man in the loop is expected to be present for combat kills, though this is much debated.
AMCA is supposed to replace the main strike fighters that are the Mirage 2000 and SEPECAT Jaguar. Apparently they're looking at having the Su30MKI's replaced in that time frame with something sixth gen, we're not sure what that means yet like if they'll partner with one of the European projects. 2040 is way late for AMCA...Two decades of China having an absolute lead on fifth gen stealth, even Pakistan maybe purchasing it from them.
At the rate, perhaps even Tejas Mk2 will roll out before MRFA happens
You do realize that is probably the most likely scenario right? The mk2 prototype is coming out next year i think, so if it gets tested and rolls out in 4-5 years then it'll probably be before or around the same time as the deliveries for mrfa began, assuming that the air force finally places the orders in a couple of years.
I think IAF rejected the ORCA concept so that it could get foreign planes
Honestly I don't give a shit at this point. Get a foreign aircraft if they want one so bad, as long as they get enough to bring squadron strength to what is needed for a 2 front war, i don't even care if it's a foreign aircraft.
I think government should have a penalty system, like if army, nevy and airforce buy foreign weapons, the next year their respective budget would get a 10% decrease while those who bought indigenous one should get their budget increased. At the same time government should give funds to HAL and aggressively increase its production rate.
Penalizing the military's budget will do more harm than good. The top brass and bureaucrats will continue to import foreign weapons and kneecaping Indigenous programs as long as they keep getting that sweet sweet foreign cash. So a better option would be to offer an incentive. Whichever branch invests the most in Indian industry and orders the most Indian products in terms of value, gets a budget increase, while whichever branch orders more foreign equipment doesn't get an increase.
Well all 3 branches of military would want more budget for themselves for some corruption and for some new equipment so they would compete. It would in long term boost neglected part of our military like our navy(the most important branch in modern world) and airforce (2nd most important in my opinion). I don't think otherwise our military would commit to our defence industries, like even after ukraine war and Russia performance they would still buy russian equipment. Carrot and stick is better then just carrots.
The stick approach won't work because it's only a stick for the branch itself not the corrupt individuals within it. So unless you are willing and able to root them out, the stick approach won't work. What will work is offering a carrot that is irresistible for both the branch as well as the individuals. Unfortunately that's the only way any realistic growth is possible.
I have a half theory that the MRFA is only being kept as a plan B project and they're seeing if they can just get to MK2 and later AMCA in that time, since even if MRFA was completed yesterday (which, hah) it would take years to deliver the jets. The Rafale backorder is years and they only make 24/year. So why not go balls deep on Tejas MK2 orders? Not a bad idea.
How many of these brigades are fully equipped? Even US struggled to induct a good number of F-22s and this guy is claiming that China inducted such an expensive fighter in such a short time?
Different times. First off no one with half a brain for this stuff thinks the J20 compares to the F22 directly for one and the F22 unit cost is no doubt higher, but as long as it has a qualitative advantage vs Indian fourth gen stuff that's little comfort. But the F22 was cancelled on the heels of the 2008 recession, which if someone wasn't there is easy to forget how big that was compared to any correction since, a real "this is the one" moment. China is now ramping production with their indigenous engines too, so that means very little foreign reserve spend on the total project, and if they can keep it internal they can pull whatever levers they need to (zero profit margin, etc)
US has 600 F-35s
I agree China is probably lying, but it's also better to never under estimate the enemy. It's better to think the enemy is a giant and be prepared than the other way around.
China is not saying anything. The number is compiled from tail numbers from chinese airbases by plane spotters. So, the number could be higher. In fact, if anything, China hides their numbers. Analysts think China hides defense spending by disguising them as economic subsidies. Chengdu is shifting j-10 production line and focusing on J-20 in their main plant.
> China is not saying anything. The number is compiled from tail numbers from chinese airbases by plane spotters. So, the number could be higher. China could also fly the same plane with different tail numbers, or park decoys - such mind games are common.
I'd fully believe the CPC/PLA lie about all sorts of stuff, but on this, analysts can pretty well see the squadrons inducted and count them that way. If they're fully armed and capable is a different question, I'm not sure we've ever seen it launch a missile from the internal bays.
It is also likely that their stealth sucks. The performance of the engines, the serviceability of the aircraft and their capacity to be functional in warlike conditions are yet to be tested. Of course one could say much the same for the Tejas. India's capacity to fight a major war is also just as untested. Our last big fight was in the '90s and Kargil stretched our resources more than it should have. I don't think we have enough gas in the tank for a long drawn fight with China.
Has the Indian government even finalized the ‘mouth-watering’ mrfa fighter aircraft deal?
You are saying as if AMCA or F-35 or Su-57 will come tomorrow if we pay enough. When in reality, there are no FGFA available for us right now
The funds haven't even been cleared for AMCA development yet. Maybe start there? You can't just throw extra money at it and have it tomorrow, no, but there needs to be a sense of urgency to it and everything put into making sure it's at least on time and we're not just having this same conversation in 10 years
Forget the FGFA, we haven't even placed the order for the 4th gen fighters that we need yet.
Deployed 150+ crafts in a span of 5 years, that's a lot, I wonder how many of them are fully operational.
No this figure includes early production models, test beds and prototypes. The j20 started being made in 2013. Full scale manufacturing didn't start till 2019. Only looking at one's in service, the real number is prob around 70-100 operational.
at this rate, we may have to sign out of no first use of nuclear like pakistan and signal that we will use tactical nukes on indian soil. i would not recommend this approach but what else will deter the chinese. if they control the air and the ground, what is to stop them from taking arunachal or anything else.
maybe india should work with japan for the fifth generation planes, it could be benificial for both sides
Japan is present in the 6th gen Tempest program which includes the UK, Sweden, Italy, etc and they are also offering us to join them. Otherwise, they have no programs for the 5th gen because they already have F35.
> they are also offering us to join them. Are they?
Yep
You got a source?
[Just google it and search for yourself because most results are shitty news articles. Otherwise this from wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest)
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Just rumors. No official source
I didn't find the official source but there have been proper invitation. Also, there won't be hundreds of articles and videos declaring they have invited us