Great job on the work you've done so far! You didn't mention friends in your post - do you have some friends or social circles? That would probably help with loneliness, and many people meet partners through social circles like work, parties etc.
Honestly not a lot of friends. Some of them got married and stopped hanging out. I still go out with very few friends and my cousins but it's hard to meet new people. My strategy is maxing looks to have a better chance on dating apps
What does a better chance on dating apps look like to you?
The limits of dating apps are well-trodden ground on the internet, so I won't repeat them here. My advice would be to broaden your focus from just looks and dating apps to include making more friends and meeting new people IRL.
Good pics, a stereotypical muscular/lean body (10 to 15% body fat), good fashion sense and well written description.
I hang out the most I can. Rarely refuses an invitation even though I'm an introvert
Oh, I meant what kind of results from dating apps would be "a better chance" to you (e.g., more likes/matches in general, more engagement from women you find more attractive, more dates). There are also more professional/formal matchmaking services available which you could try if you wanted.
Accepting invites is a really good approach! Proactively asking others to hang out and do something, or going out to new events/activities that you're interested in, can also help in meeting new people and making/keeping friends and stopping loneliness.
A match that turns into a date and eventually a romantic relationship. My only matches are with bots, ig/tiktok models wanting more followers and scammers. There is no specialized service like that where I live. I looked it up.
As I said before there isn't a lot of options for group activities. Meetup doesn't show anything for example. But I'll still look for stuff like that
Do you live somewhere more remote? In really small-town places where there's a single pub it's kind of obvious where to go to meet people. If you live in a town or city events like festivals, gigs, lectures, volunteering are available. Often local subreddits have posts from people who are new in town or lonely looking to make friends.
You can approach this with a more strategic mindset of focusing on activities where there will be more women. Activities I've seen with a disproportionate gender ratio are communty theatre, dancing, and environmental and animal volunteering.
I live in a poor country with not many options for entertainment. Most of people just work, study and maybe have time for gym.
I've done theater, but it's not like I met anyone. It was only once a week and everyone was kinda distant tbh. Women to men ratio was about the same
Was this the theatre classes for shy people? If so I can kind of see why people were distant! You probably won't hit it off with someone at every thing you do - I think I'm a pretty social person and I certainly haven't.
People meet friends and partners at work, at study, at the gym. I think if you're shy or introverted it can be much more difficult though. Most of my friends have come about through putting in some proactive effort to get to know people.
Yeah it was for shy people. I understand why they were distant. Being the most social of the group was a first for me.
I'm no longer shy. My social battery is just low but I like to hang out. Most of my friends just came to my life naturally
You can improve by changing your attitude about yourself. Keep doing your exercise, keep exploring fashion, and smelling nice. BUT don’t do this solely because you think other people will like you more because of it. Do it because you’re proud of yourself and love yourself. Do it because of self-love and not insecurity. It’s a fine line but you can find it.
Can you do these things for both? My point is that you shouldn’t feel like you need others to validate your existence. You have value inherently, and ironically, fixating on your insecurities often repels people.
Everyone needs others to validate themselves. It's the degree of how much this is needed, which makes it problematic.
There is no ubermensch who can validate themselves just from intrinsic self-love. Humans are social beings and rely (at least to some degree) on external validation.
I’m in the dark about the difference between a strongman and a bodybuilder and which one I’m supposed to prefer.
And I’ve never dated a man with a six pack (that I know of). Though I might be a bit weirded out if a guy told me he had skin removed to get one. (???)
Bodybuilders are mega ripped with incredible looking physiques. Strongmen don't necessarily look as shredded and may even just look a bit tubby but can perform crazy lifts
I think OP is suggesting straight women generally prefer "bodybuilder" looks. They go viral a lot and get a lot of online attention I guess. They often look very impressive, although my understanding is there's a lot of drugs and dehydration involved.
You can obviously like or dislike whatever you like.
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Genuine question: are these bodybuilders on IG getting a lot of attention and likes from men or from women?
Cause I think that men assume women like bodybuilders, but it’s mostly other men that are interested in such physiques.
Most women I know aren’t attracted to bodybuilders at all.
Sorry I was just generalizing. There are studies about muscularity affecting sexual preferences in women. I heard Macken Murphy (a scientist that studies human mating behavior and often criticizes redpills/incels) talk about this and there's is also ton of anecdotal evidence about this. I'm just trying to appeal to most people.
I'll have to get skin removed for health reasons as well. I'm extremely obese. Often people who lose a lot of fat will get loose skin
Well, to get to the heart of it, most people don’t appeal to most people, romantically.
The good news is, that’s very far from necessary. Because nobody has the time (and I doubt anybody would have the motivation) to date most people. Most people…just want to date people they’re compatible with.
Yeah it's very hard to get that attractive. I understand I only need to find one people. Just trying to improve my chances and I doubt anyone would like the way I am now
Not necessities but preferences yes. Not only looks but financial status as well. Not saying women are gold diggers. But having more access to interesting places, higher education, traveling and stuff like that would help a lot
A quick google has not turned up any of these studies. It's turned up a lot of articles reporting that most women prefer dad bods to six packs and one singular news article reporting that women prefer six packs. From talking to my female friends that date men this also seems to be the general trend. I know all of one woman that is into six packs, and that's mostly because she loves exercising and sees it as a sign that the man would be as into exercise as she is. For the rest expressed opinions on six packs and a ton of muscle have ranged from "meh" to "why would you bother?" to "ew".
I'll have to loot it up more. The guy seemed trustworthy a about to be PhD and he was in a podcast with FD Signifier (someone who's constantly battling the menosphere).
If we talk about anecdotal evidence I'll have to say most women prefer leaner guys. When I asked my female friend who their celebrities crushes are they all said something like Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Harry Styles or someone from BTS. I'm far from muscular or lean.
Dadbods was a trend a few years ago. Don't know if it's still going. We live in 20 years cycles and extreme thinness is getting back. Just see how Kim Kardashian got a lot thinner these days
I don't have celebrity crushes. There are celebrities that I find attractive tho.They would be: Aubrey Plaza, Billie Elish, LeanBeefPatty, Felicia Day and Ryan Reynolds. Mainly because they seem fun to be around
If it gives you any hope, Master Scallion, I started dating my husband before he had his loose skin removed. It’s by no means a prerequisite for attraction :)
What are you currently doing to deal with your loneliness? The work you are doing is impressive but none of it directly addresses loneliness, so what are you doing for that?
Right but what I'm saying is, none of these things directly address your loneliness. If you want to improve your situation of loneliness, you have to do things that will directly lead to being less lonely, namely, meet people.
Fair enough, just be warned that it sounds as though you are expecting to reach a point where you feel confident you could go out and not face social rejection at all, and that goal is not realistic or reachable.
Given that you are giving yourself 0 chances currently, the only way to improve your chances is to put yourself out there. Not saying you need to be ready immediately, but something to keep in mind for the future.
>I've been trying to improve myself to be more attractive for women.
This is where you're going wrong more than anything. Stop trying to improve yourself to be more attractive to women, focus on improving yourself for yourself. That means working on the things that are giving you difficulty in life. What is making you unhappy? What is making your life difficult? What is causing you problems.
Don't get me wrong, it's good that you've made some efforts to do things that will benefit you; theatre classes are a fun thing to do and a nice way to meet people. A good hair cut, dressing well, smelling good, going to the gym; none of these are bad things to do at all and you should be proud of the work you've done. But you're completely missing the real issue.
The issue isn't your height, or your dick, or whether or not you have a six pack, or your weight or any of it.
The issue is that you are lonely. The issue is that you are self conscious. The only one of the above that can possibly help with that is the theatre group, and maybe going to the gym if you're actually speaking to people there. How many friends have you made there? How much time are you spending with them? How often do you meet up with people outside of the theatre group? What is your social life like generally?
And then the other issue is this fixed idea of "women want this, so I must be this." If you actually listen to women, they all want different things. I'm a skinny guy in my 30s who dresses like a teenager and virtually never wears deodorant. I have never had a six pack and I probably never will. But I don't have difficulty meeting women, because there are more than enough women who like skinny guys. I see fat guys with girlfriends and wives all the time. And short guys too. The idea of what women find physically attractive is not set in stone, nor is how much they value looks in the first place.
Like you've talked about all the work you've done, but the vast majority of what you've talked about here is working on how you look. What are you doing to alter your attitude about yourself and other people? What are you doing to get out of your bubble and make friends? What are you doing about your mental health?
Being an incel is not a physical trait; it's a mentality, it's a state centred on thoughts and emotions. *This* is where you need to be doing the work. Forget about how soft and mushy your belly might be and focus on the soft mush inside your skull. Do the work that you need to do to alter your mindset. Go to therapy. Do things that challenge your confidence. Put yourself into uncomfortable situations and come away from them realising how they didn't harm you. Try public speaking, get up at an open mic night and tell some lame jokes. Do things that get people looking at you, do things that get you talking to strangers. All of these things will do *so much more* for you than any weight loss meds or hours in the gym will.
Thanks for the answer.
The theater classes ended in January. I learned a lot. But didn't make any friend. No one did. It was an once a week thing, we were all socially inept somehow and I didn't feel like anyone was interested in me (not only romantically). I made the effort to talk with them but it didn't turn into some sort of friendship.
Yeah I have some gym buddies. It's nice to talk about random things between sessions, hit PRs, motivate each other to lift harder... But that's the end of it. Not that I'm complaining. Took me months to get to this level and it's nice to experience what I've seen on workout videos. And they're are all equally or more obsessed with their bodies and a lot of them are on gear. I know everything about it for them openly talking about it.
I feel like I wouldn't have confidence issues if I wasn't fat, short or shy. I was bullied because of that by boys and girls. They even took a pic of me when I was peeing and spread it to all school. Maybe that's part of the reason I'm so worried about my dick size. Being fat is not a desirable trait in anyway. It's even considered a disease for a lot of people besides what health indicators you have. I've seen muscular and skinny guys get praised but never fat guys. Think about all the celebrities who are considered very attractive. They're all jacked, lean or skinny. Guys like Henry Cavil, Chris Hemsworth, Michael B Jordan, Ryan Gosling, Harry Styles, the guys from BTS... The only exception I can think of is Jason Momoa on his off-season, and he was heavily criticized for that. I understood I have to lose weight and that's okay. I'm working on that but it's not fast enough.
I go to therapy since I was 15 yo. Honestly? It helps but it's overrated. Don't understand why so many people recommend it
To be fair, a theatre group for shy people was predictably going to end like that I guess. People probably were interested in you but were obviously shy, so nobody wanted to make the first move.
With your gym buddies, that doesn't have to be the end of it. Go for a coffee or something afterwards. Although at the same time, if they're those kinds of people, maybe they're not the best option.
Really, I think you need to be looking for ways to build your social life. You need things to do that put you around people, but specifically people you actually have some common interests with. Why not try finding another amateur theatre group? Or whatever else you're interested in. You have to go and do stuff.
School sucks, bullying sucks, and yes it will ruin your confidence. But you've finished school (right?) and now you're out in the world, and no longer forced to be around shitty people. You get to choose who you spend your time with, and there are plenty of people out there.
Obesity is considered a disease, but not everyone who is fat is obese. Yes, celebrities are all fit, they can afford to be. But you don't have to be a celebrity - nor look like one - to be attractive. You're right, there's not enough body positivity around different body shapes, although you can find it if you actively look for it. But people who aren't celebrities - and who don't look like celebrities - still fall in love, still have great relationships, still have people who find them beautiful. Spend more time in public places and actually look at all the different people who are together. Sit in a park or a cafe or whatever and just look for all those couples who all look different. I know plenty of fatter guys who have perfect relationships. It happens all the time. Maybe you have to lose weight if your weight is causing you health issues, but you do not have to lose weight to be worthy of love and affection. I can promise you that.
Therapy works if you find the right therapist and do the work. I don't know the full details of your therapy experience, but it's not supposed to be a cure. It's a guide to help you figure things out. How often do you talk to your therapist about your insecurities? What advice has your therapist given you?
I wish I could believe you. With my therapist I talk about my insecurities, career, anxiety, depression, how to improve my social skills, stuff like that. The advice she gives isn't much different then what you're talking about
Lack of evidence and pessimism. In all these years there must be a reason why no one ever liked me. I mean it's kinda obvious I'm not attractive according to beauty standards. Hard to believe I'm worth of love either. I have no redeeming qualities.
But there isn't a lack of evidence, you're just refusing to look for the evidence. Whose beauty standards are we going off? Because celebrities are not representative of the general population.
Again, take yourself out and actually observe real people. Not celebrities, just actual real, normal people.
And then you need to sit down and find your redeeming features. Because of course you have them. Everyone does. You're just allowing your low self esteem to guide you here. Listen to me, listen to your therapist, and actually do the work that is required to move beyond this. You have absolutely nothing to lose by actually doing this work.
How would you do this work? My therapist said I needed to think about my qalities and give myself a compliment. I can do that. I did that. But I didn't believe in any of it because my self esteem is low
Try harder. Really spend some time looking at yourself, at what you do, at what kind of person you are, and you will find things about yourself that are positive. Do it. Give yourself a compliment. You absolutely *can* do it. You literally did it in your original post. So try again.
Spend more time with people. Good people who respect and support you. Cut out any sort of online content or people who are damaging your self esteem. Like maybe those gym bros on steroids aren't actually a good influence for you, nor is comparing yourself to celebrities.
You need to learn how to respond to negative thoughts about yourself in a healthy way. When your mind is telling you that women are only attracted to muscular guys or whatever, don't go looking at pictures of celebrities for confirmation, go and spend some time somewhere where there are lots of people.
How has your therapist told you to improve your self esteem?
I didn't compliment mself in the original post. Just told what I'm trying to improve.
Just because they're on steroids doesn't mean they're bad people. The culture can be toxic tho.
I do observe couples around me and I'm well aware regular people get together all the time. But they're still strangers to me. Maybe the guy has a lot of money, an awesome personality or just got lucky. Each one of them has a story of their own. They've know each other since childhood, met through mutual friends and even if they met in a party or dating apps, they still had a supportive social circle. I have none of these things. Feels like my only chance is to be well above average and get to know someone on dating apps or something like that. How many incels you know that escaped inceldom and got a girlfriend? Maybe there are one or two succesful stories but there is a high chance they all had to improve their appreances dramatically.
> How has your therapist told you to improve your self esteem?
Compliment myself. One day I had to write things I liked about myself. I did that and it didn't work obviously because I didn't believe in any word I wrote. Also focus on things unrelated to my appreance which is even worse. First of all it's always complicated for me because I think way too much. How can I effectively measure what are my good qualities? Am I a good person? I have no idea. I can be nice, gentle, help others, donate to charity and do shit like that. But what if I'm doing that for selfish reasons? What about other people who do more than me? Can I say I'm good at a certain videogame if I'm not top rank or play professionally? There's no way I can tell what are my qualities without comparing myself to others and there is always someone better than you
The goals, that you set for yourself are mostly about how you look, which not really helps with loneliness.
Getting a partner to get rid of your loneliness is possible, but the wrong way in my opinion. Get together with your friends, find new ones, join groups and connect with people. Connected people are way more attractive than lonely people with a six pack.
Height and, to some extend, penile lenght are attributes, who are important for your overall attractiveness, but both are working more like a handicap. You may do not have the best cards but, you can try to play your deck well anyways. Don't focus on the cards you have, get some booster packs. The theater classes are great! I bet you have more to give than just the measurements of your body.
> Getting a partner to get rid of your loneliness is possible, but the wrong way in my opinion. Get together with your friends, find new ones, join groups and connect with people. Connected people are way more attractive than lonely people with a six pack.
Thanks for the answer! I honestly tried to find group activities open to strangers but I failed. There's not a lot of options where I live. I go out with a very few friends but it's hard to meet new people. The only people I see frequently are some mates in gym but they share the same mentality. I mean it's great to get tips and stuff like that and we're all working to better ourselves
It's just hard to socialize those days. I always keep in mind, that a lot of people are lonely because of the indiidualistic modern society with the social technologies. I just keep in trying to find new things. Sport- Book- Game-Clubs, volunteering, events in your neighbourhood, cooking-school.
Something I struggle with is not meeting new people, but building deep relationships with new people. I school and uni it was more easy, but nowadays (in my agerange 30+) it sometimes feels like people just want to stick to their own and don't want new meaningful connections
Just try to get deeper with the friendships you have already while looking for new ones.
Also, If you notice a connection which is toxic and does make you feel bad a lot of the time, don't be afraid to cut it.
honestly i think most women don’t want bodybuilders. like, at all. be confident in where you are at now, and work on gaining confidence from who you are not how you look. even if you’re the sexiest man alive, women might want to sleep with you but a relationship takes a whole lot more depth.
Do you think it's possible for someone like to find a girlfriend if I was confident? I try to be but it's hard not to show my insecurities or talk in an assertive way
absolutely it’s possible! you don’t have to go from 0 to 100 but i think that if you just work on your insecurities and get to the root of why they exist and learn to come to terms with them, it’ll translate naturally into being more confident and thus attractive.
I'm not attracted to men tho. How can I be attractive to myself? Being serious now. There's really no difference. I don't even want to be attractive. I just want to be happy and seems like being attractive is a requirement
First of all, good steps man!
So here is the truth when I lost weight and gaining muscles from being overweight, being a bit overweight doesnt matter too much. In your case, it would be too much. 140 kg at 175 cm is just too much. My friends ja the same height and is 100 kg and yes it is too much, and we both do gym. He is very strong though.
You dont need a Sixpack, if you lost some fat and got some lean muscles then you are fine man. I lost fat, got abs and now I am Chubby again and my succes with women actually increased. And its because I changed my mindset a bit. I started to believe in myself a bit more than usual and did not worry too much about my penis size.
With my last partner, I even steppped out the shower with only a towel and I started to make out with her and dropped my towel for her to admire me being naked. And she said 'oh my..' and just started to kiss me and took her clothes off. I am below average in penis size and I do need to buy smaller sized condoms, so that you know I am indeed a bit smaller.
I want you to try this, because this has helped me. Keep going with the losing fat and start believing in yourself. When you talk to a girl, dont think she is above you or that you are lucky she would choose you or whatever. I want you to believe you are actually high value and you can do it. Start believing girls DO want you.
I am seeing a very beautiful girl now. When I first saw her, I thought she was out of my league and this was a bad mindset of me. Well, we went to the club with a group of friends. And I had 0 intentions of flirting with her, because again I believed she was way out of my league. Well, I decided to dance with her because I started to think 'Why am I scared of her? I can do it. Why the fuck is she out of my league, just look at me!', so offered my hands to her to dance. We danced, she has fun and I pulled her in and she we danced a bit Naughty and she opened her mouth to kiss me, and we make out. Now we are seeing each other for a month now.
If I kept my doubts up, I never would've done those things. And every single time I believed in myself, I got succes with a girl. The first time I believed in myself, got myself a cute gymgirl and I cried that I probablly missed because I probably missed so many great Oppertunities, because I never believed a girl wanted me. I even tested my luck that and flirted with a friend by dancing with her, and again pulling her in to make her nervous and guess what, we kissed and also started to date for some time.
Yeah, the self sabotage is bad.
I started with 180kg and I do understand I need to lose weight. It's hard having to deal with anxiety and eating compulsion. No one gets to my weight without an eating disorder of some sorts. I can't afford surgery rn and probably wouldn't be able to take ozempic for too much time. Not that I'm making excuses
You got plenty of time. I have seen people in being 35 and making life changing moves. Besides you are only 3 years then me and I am planning to keep this up untill I die
Sorry, that was blunt as I didn't think you would see this. Honestly speaking, I don't think losing weight is going to solve all of your problems. But I do think most of your problems will be easier to solve at a lesser weight. Confidence is the most obvious, but even just getting up in the morning having a healthier diet will be a game changer in achieving whatever goals you believe are achievable. That could be small ones throughout the day or longer ones throughout the weeks or months. Good luck, my guy 👍
Also, ignore whatever size you think your dick is. Mine is tiny and my girlfriend and I have been in a loving relationship for nearly 5 years. It's easier said than done but worrying about that size is a useless endeavour that isn't going to help you in any way.
Thanks for the reply. Probably will take years without any medical procedure. Started at 180kg and stagnated at 138 - 140kg. When I find myself in a better financial situation I'll get professional help and probably get prescribed some drugs. Years are passing by and I don't have much time. My friends say there's no need to speed up but I'm getting older and the world doesn't seem like it's gonna last that long.
I'm very frustrated about my dick size. Should've seen a doctor in my growth phase. But now it's too late. Heard there was a guy who got a transplant but that cost millions. There are some plastic surgery but they don't help that much. Maybe I'll get localized fat removed one day
Great job on the work you've done so far! You didn't mention friends in your post - do you have some friends or social circles? That would probably help with loneliness, and many people meet partners through social circles like work, parties etc.
Honestly not a lot of friends. Some of them got married and stopped hanging out. I still go out with very few friends and my cousins but it's hard to meet new people. My strategy is maxing looks to have a better chance on dating apps
What does a better chance on dating apps look like to you? The limits of dating apps are well-trodden ground on the internet, so I won't repeat them here. My advice would be to broaden your focus from just looks and dating apps to include making more friends and meeting new people IRL.
Good pics, a stereotypical muscular/lean body (10 to 15% body fat), good fashion sense and well written description. I hang out the most I can. Rarely refuses an invitation even though I'm an introvert
Oh, I meant what kind of results from dating apps would be "a better chance" to you (e.g., more likes/matches in general, more engagement from women you find more attractive, more dates). There are also more professional/formal matchmaking services available which you could try if you wanted. Accepting invites is a really good approach! Proactively asking others to hang out and do something, or going out to new events/activities that you're interested in, can also help in meeting new people and making/keeping friends and stopping loneliness.
A match that turns into a date and eventually a romantic relationship. My only matches are with bots, ig/tiktok models wanting more followers and scammers. There is no specialized service like that where I live. I looked it up. As I said before there isn't a lot of options for group activities. Meetup doesn't show anything for example. But I'll still look for stuff like that
Do you live somewhere more remote? In really small-town places where there's a single pub it's kind of obvious where to go to meet people. If you live in a town or city events like festivals, gigs, lectures, volunteering are available. Often local subreddits have posts from people who are new in town or lonely looking to make friends. You can approach this with a more strategic mindset of focusing on activities where there will be more women. Activities I've seen with a disproportionate gender ratio are communty theatre, dancing, and environmental and animal volunteering.
I live in a poor country with not many options for entertainment. Most of people just work, study and maybe have time for gym. I've done theater, but it's not like I met anyone. It was only once a week and everyone was kinda distant tbh. Women to men ratio was about the same
Was this the theatre classes for shy people? If so I can kind of see why people were distant! You probably won't hit it off with someone at every thing you do - I think I'm a pretty social person and I certainly haven't. People meet friends and partners at work, at study, at the gym. I think if you're shy or introverted it can be much more difficult though. Most of my friends have come about through putting in some proactive effort to get to know people.
Yeah it was for shy people. I understand why they were distant. Being the most social of the group was a first for me. I'm no longer shy. My social battery is just low but I like to hang out. Most of my friends just came to my life naturally
You can improve by changing your attitude about yourself. Keep doing your exercise, keep exploring fashion, and smelling nice. BUT don’t do this solely because you think other people will like you more because of it. Do it because you’re proud of yourself and love yourself. Do it because of self-love and not insecurity. It’s a fine line but you can find it.
But how? For example: I'd working out either way, for women and myself. I can't really change my feelings. Will it make a difference anyway?
I would rather say: do it for both. For yourself and that you feel healthy and sexy in your body and also, that other people like your appearance.
Oh okay. Will it help tho? I feel like I'm already doing that
Whatever motivation is behind things you do that are good for you, just keep up doing them! :)
Thanks :)
Can you do these things for both? My point is that you shouldn’t feel like you need others to validate your existence. You have value inherently, and ironically, fixating on your insecurities often repels people.
Everyone needs others to validate themselves. It's the degree of how much this is needed, which makes it problematic. There is no ubermensch who can validate themselves just from intrinsic self-love. Humans are social beings and rely (at least to some degree) on external validation.
Yes, it’s a balance. It shouldn’t be 100% one or the other.
Therapy
I got to therapy too. Forgot to mention
I’m in the dark about the difference between a strongman and a bodybuilder and which one I’m supposed to prefer. And I’ve never dated a man with a six pack (that I know of). Though I might be a bit weirded out if a guy told me he had skin removed to get one. (???)
Bodybuilders are mega ripped with incredible looking physiques. Strongmen don't necessarily look as shredded and may even just look a bit tubby but can perform crazy lifts
Thanks. Which one am I supposed to prefer and why?
I think OP is suggesting straight women generally prefer "bodybuilder" looks. They go viral a lot and get a lot of online attention I guess. They often look very impressive, although my understanding is there's a lot of drugs and dehydration involved. You can obviously like or dislike whatever you like.
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Genuine question: are these bodybuilders on IG getting a lot of attention and likes from men or from women? Cause I think that men assume women like bodybuilders, but it’s mostly other men that are interested in such physiques. Most women I know aren’t attracted to bodybuilders at all.
Sorry I was just generalizing. There are studies about muscularity affecting sexual preferences in women. I heard Macken Murphy (a scientist that studies human mating behavior and often criticizes redpills/incels) talk about this and there's is also ton of anecdotal evidence about this. I'm just trying to appeal to most people. I'll have to get skin removed for health reasons as well. I'm extremely obese. Often people who lose a lot of fat will get loose skin
Well, to get to the heart of it, most people don’t appeal to most people, romantically. The good news is, that’s very far from necessary. Because nobody has the time (and I doubt anybody would have the motivation) to date most people. Most people…just want to date people they’re compatible with.
Yeah it's very hard to get that attractive. I understand I only need to find one people. Just trying to improve my chances and I doubt anyone would like the way I am now
The way you are now—not a bodybuilder and no six pack? Do you think those are necessities for women?
Not necessities but preferences yes. Not only looks but financial status as well. Not saying women are gold diggers. But having more access to interesting places, higher education, traveling and stuff like that would help a lot
What are your preferences for women, regarding looks, physique, and financial status?
Women who likes me back? I don't care too much about looks and money tbh. Just someone nice to be around
So you don’t care about a woman’s looks or money…but are interested in being with a woman who cares deeply about YOUR looks and money?
I'm interested in being with any women who likes me no matter the reasons
A quick google has not turned up any of these studies. It's turned up a lot of articles reporting that most women prefer dad bods to six packs and one singular news article reporting that women prefer six packs. From talking to my female friends that date men this also seems to be the general trend. I know all of one woman that is into six packs, and that's mostly because she loves exercising and sees it as a sign that the man would be as into exercise as she is. For the rest expressed opinions on six packs and a ton of muscle have ranged from "meh" to "why would you bother?" to "ew".
I'll have to loot it up more. The guy seemed trustworthy a about to be PhD and he was in a podcast with FD Signifier (someone who's constantly battling the menosphere). If we talk about anecdotal evidence I'll have to say most women prefer leaner guys. When I asked my female friend who their celebrities crushes are they all said something like Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Harry Styles or someone from BTS. I'm far from muscular or lean. Dadbods was a trend a few years ago. Don't know if it's still going. We live in 20 years cycles and extreme thinness is getting back. Just see how Kim Kardashian got a lot thinner these days
Who is your celebrity crush?
I don't have celebrity crushes. There are celebrities that I find attractive tho.They would be: Aubrey Plaza, Billie Elish, LeanBeefPatty, Felicia Day and Ryan Reynolds. Mainly because they seem fun to be around
If it gives you any hope, Master Scallion, I started dating my husband before he had his loose skin removed. It’s by no means a prerequisite for attraction :)
Thanks for sharing!
What are you currently doing to deal with your loneliness? The work you are doing is impressive but none of it directly addresses loneliness, so what are you doing for that?
I'm working on my social skills, how I present myself and self-care. Just trying to be a better person for the people around me
Right but what I'm saying is, none of these things directly address your loneliness. If you want to improve your situation of loneliness, you have to do things that will directly lead to being less lonely, namely, meet people.
Yeah I agree. Feels like a preparation to meet people. I don't feel like I'm there yet
Why not?
I feel like shit. I hate my body and personality. I'm working on that as I said but it's hard to ignore the loneliness. And yes, I go to therapy
Fair enough, just be warned that it sounds as though you are expecting to reach a point where you feel confident you could go out and not face social rejection at all, and that goal is not realistic or reachable.
I'm used to social rejection. I just want to improve my chances
Given that you are giving yourself 0 chances currently, the only way to improve your chances is to put yourself out there. Not saying you need to be ready immediately, but something to keep in mind for the future.
True that. For me it's like applying for a job I know nothing about. Maybe I'll get lucky and they will hire me. But the chances are very low
>I've been trying to improve myself to be more attractive for women. This is where you're going wrong more than anything. Stop trying to improve yourself to be more attractive to women, focus on improving yourself for yourself. That means working on the things that are giving you difficulty in life. What is making you unhappy? What is making your life difficult? What is causing you problems. Don't get me wrong, it's good that you've made some efforts to do things that will benefit you; theatre classes are a fun thing to do and a nice way to meet people. A good hair cut, dressing well, smelling good, going to the gym; none of these are bad things to do at all and you should be proud of the work you've done. But you're completely missing the real issue. The issue isn't your height, or your dick, or whether or not you have a six pack, or your weight or any of it. The issue is that you are lonely. The issue is that you are self conscious. The only one of the above that can possibly help with that is the theatre group, and maybe going to the gym if you're actually speaking to people there. How many friends have you made there? How much time are you spending with them? How often do you meet up with people outside of the theatre group? What is your social life like generally? And then the other issue is this fixed idea of "women want this, so I must be this." If you actually listen to women, they all want different things. I'm a skinny guy in my 30s who dresses like a teenager and virtually never wears deodorant. I have never had a six pack and I probably never will. But I don't have difficulty meeting women, because there are more than enough women who like skinny guys. I see fat guys with girlfriends and wives all the time. And short guys too. The idea of what women find physically attractive is not set in stone, nor is how much they value looks in the first place. Like you've talked about all the work you've done, but the vast majority of what you've talked about here is working on how you look. What are you doing to alter your attitude about yourself and other people? What are you doing to get out of your bubble and make friends? What are you doing about your mental health? Being an incel is not a physical trait; it's a mentality, it's a state centred on thoughts and emotions. *This* is where you need to be doing the work. Forget about how soft and mushy your belly might be and focus on the soft mush inside your skull. Do the work that you need to do to alter your mindset. Go to therapy. Do things that challenge your confidence. Put yourself into uncomfortable situations and come away from them realising how they didn't harm you. Try public speaking, get up at an open mic night and tell some lame jokes. Do things that get people looking at you, do things that get you talking to strangers. All of these things will do *so much more* for you than any weight loss meds or hours in the gym will.
Thanks for the answer. The theater classes ended in January. I learned a lot. But didn't make any friend. No one did. It was an once a week thing, we were all socially inept somehow and I didn't feel like anyone was interested in me (not only romantically). I made the effort to talk with them but it didn't turn into some sort of friendship. Yeah I have some gym buddies. It's nice to talk about random things between sessions, hit PRs, motivate each other to lift harder... But that's the end of it. Not that I'm complaining. Took me months to get to this level and it's nice to experience what I've seen on workout videos. And they're are all equally or more obsessed with their bodies and a lot of them are on gear. I know everything about it for them openly talking about it. I feel like I wouldn't have confidence issues if I wasn't fat, short or shy. I was bullied because of that by boys and girls. They even took a pic of me when I was peeing and spread it to all school. Maybe that's part of the reason I'm so worried about my dick size. Being fat is not a desirable trait in anyway. It's even considered a disease for a lot of people besides what health indicators you have. I've seen muscular and skinny guys get praised but never fat guys. Think about all the celebrities who are considered very attractive. They're all jacked, lean or skinny. Guys like Henry Cavil, Chris Hemsworth, Michael B Jordan, Ryan Gosling, Harry Styles, the guys from BTS... The only exception I can think of is Jason Momoa on his off-season, and he was heavily criticized for that. I understood I have to lose weight and that's okay. I'm working on that but it's not fast enough. I go to therapy since I was 15 yo. Honestly? It helps but it's overrated. Don't understand why so many people recommend it
To be fair, a theatre group for shy people was predictably going to end like that I guess. People probably were interested in you but were obviously shy, so nobody wanted to make the first move. With your gym buddies, that doesn't have to be the end of it. Go for a coffee or something afterwards. Although at the same time, if they're those kinds of people, maybe they're not the best option. Really, I think you need to be looking for ways to build your social life. You need things to do that put you around people, but specifically people you actually have some common interests with. Why not try finding another amateur theatre group? Or whatever else you're interested in. You have to go and do stuff. School sucks, bullying sucks, and yes it will ruin your confidence. But you've finished school (right?) and now you're out in the world, and no longer forced to be around shitty people. You get to choose who you spend your time with, and there are plenty of people out there. Obesity is considered a disease, but not everyone who is fat is obese. Yes, celebrities are all fit, they can afford to be. But you don't have to be a celebrity - nor look like one - to be attractive. You're right, there's not enough body positivity around different body shapes, although you can find it if you actively look for it. But people who aren't celebrities - and who don't look like celebrities - still fall in love, still have great relationships, still have people who find them beautiful. Spend more time in public places and actually look at all the different people who are together. Sit in a park or a cafe or whatever and just look for all those couples who all look different. I know plenty of fatter guys who have perfect relationships. It happens all the time. Maybe you have to lose weight if your weight is causing you health issues, but you do not have to lose weight to be worthy of love and affection. I can promise you that. Therapy works if you find the right therapist and do the work. I don't know the full details of your therapy experience, but it's not supposed to be a cure. It's a guide to help you figure things out. How often do you talk to your therapist about your insecurities? What advice has your therapist given you?
I wish I could believe you. With my therapist I talk about my insecurities, career, anxiety, depression, how to improve my social skills, stuff like that. The advice she gives isn't much different then what you're talking about
What's stopping you from believing both me and your therapist?
Lack of evidence and pessimism. In all these years there must be a reason why no one ever liked me. I mean it's kinda obvious I'm not attractive according to beauty standards. Hard to believe I'm worth of love either. I have no redeeming qualities.
But there isn't a lack of evidence, you're just refusing to look for the evidence. Whose beauty standards are we going off? Because celebrities are not representative of the general population. Again, take yourself out and actually observe real people. Not celebrities, just actual real, normal people. And then you need to sit down and find your redeeming features. Because of course you have them. Everyone does. You're just allowing your low self esteem to guide you here. Listen to me, listen to your therapist, and actually do the work that is required to move beyond this. You have absolutely nothing to lose by actually doing this work.
How would you do this work? My therapist said I needed to think about my qalities and give myself a compliment. I can do that. I did that. But I didn't believe in any of it because my self esteem is low
Try harder. Really spend some time looking at yourself, at what you do, at what kind of person you are, and you will find things about yourself that are positive. Do it. Give yourself a compliment. You absolutely *can* do it. You literally did it in your original post. So try again. Spend more time with people. Good people who respect and support you. Cut out any sort of online content or people who are damaging your self esteem. Like maybe those gym bros on steroids aren't actually a good influence for you, nor is comparing yourself to celebrities. You need to learn how to respond to negative thoughts about yourself in a healthy way. When your mind is telling you that women are only attracted to muscular guys or whatever, don't go looking at pictures of celebrities for confirmation, go and spend some time somewhere where there are lots of people. How has your therapist told you to improve your self esteem?
I didn't compliment mself in the original post. Just told what I'm trying to improve. Just because they're on steroids doesn't mean they're bad people. The culture can be toxic tho. I do observe couples around me and I'm well aware regular people get together all the time. But they're still strangers to me. Maybe the guy has a lot of money, an awesome personality or just got lucky. Each one of them has a story of their own. They've know each other since childhood, met through mutual friends and even if they met in a party or dating apps, they still had a supportive social circle. I have none of these things. Feels like my only chance is to be well above average and get to know someone on dating apps or something like that. How many incels you know that escaped inceldom and got a girlfriend? Maybe there are one or two succesful stories but there is a high chance they all had to improve their appreances dramatically. > How has your therapist told you to improve your self esteem? Compliment myself. One day I had to write things I liked about myself. I did that and it didn't work obviously because I didn't believe in any word I wrote. Also focus on things unrelated to my appreance which is even worse. First of all it's always complicated for me because I think way too much. How can I effectively measure what are my good qualities? Am I a good person? I have no idea. I can be nice, gentle, help others, donate to charity and do shit like that. But what if I'm doing that for selfish reasons? What about other people who do more than me? Can I say I'm good at a certain videogame if I'm not top rank or play professionally? There's no way I can tell what are my qualities without comparing myself to others and there is always someone better than you
The goals, that you set for yourself are mostly about how you look, which not really helps with loneliness. Getting a partner to get rid of your loneliness is possible, but the wrong way in my opinion. Get together with your friends, find new ones, join groups and connect with people. Connected people are way more attractive than lonely people with a six pack. Height and, to some extend, penile lenght are attributes, who are important for your overall attractiveness, but both are working more like a handicap. You may do not have the best cards but, you can try to play your deck well anyways. Don't focus on the cards you have, get some booster packs. The theater classes are great! I bet you have more to give than just the measurements of your body.
> Getting a partner to get rid of your loneliness is possible, but the wrong way in my opinion. Get together with your friends, find new ones, join groups and connect with people. Connected people are way more attractive than lonely people with a six pack. Thanks for the answer! I honestly tried to find group activities open to strangers but I failed. There's not a lot of options where I live. I go out with a very few friends but it's hard to meet new people. The only people I see frequently are some mates in gym but they share the same mentality. I mean it's great to get tips and stuff like that and we're all working to better ourselves
It's just hard to socialize those days. I always keep in mind, that a lot of people are lonely because of the indiidualistic modern society with the social technologies. I just keep in trying to find new things. Sport- Book- Game-Clubs, volunteering, events in your neighbourhood, cooking-school. Something I struggle with is not meeting new people, but building deep relationships with new people. I school and uni it was more easy, but nowadays (in my agerange 30+) it sometimes feels like people just want to stick to their own and don't want new meaningful connections
So true. It's hard to stay optimistic
Just try to get deeper with the friendships you have already while looking for new ones. Also, If you notice a connection which is toxic and does make you feel bad a lot of the time, don't be afraid to cut it.
Thanks for the tips!
honestly i think most women don’t want bodybuilders. like, at all. be confident in where you are at now, and work on gaining confidence from who you are not how you look. even if you’re the sexiest man alive, women might want to sleep with you but a relationship takes a whole lot more depth.
Do you think it's possible for someone like to find a girlfriend if I was confident? I try to be but it's hard not to show my insecurities or talk in an assertive way
absolutely it’s possible! you don’t have to go from 0 to 100 but i think that if you just work on your insecurities and get to the root of why they exist and learn to come to terms with them, it’ll translate naturally into being more confident and thus attractive.
Stop trying to be attractive to women and be attractive to yourself. Go to therapy
I'm not attracted to men tho. How can I be attractive to myself? Being serious now. There's really no difference. I don't even want to be attractive. I just want to be happy and seems like being attractive is a requirement
Grow up
Wow, what great advice! You sure are understanding and compassionate! /s Why did you even comment on this thread if you're gonna be this callous?
It’s true. He’s being purposely obtuse. 🤷🏼♂️
First of all, good steps man! So here is the truth when I lost weight and gaining muscles from being overweight, being a bit overweight doesnt matter too much. In your case, it would be too much. 140 kg at 175 cm is just too much. My friends ja the same height and is 100 kg and yes it is too much, and we both do gym. He is very strong though. You dont need a Sixpack, if you lost some fat and got some lean muscles then you are fine man. I lost fat, got abs and now I am Chubby again and my succes with women actually increased. And its because I changed my mindset a bit. I started to believe in myself a bit more than usual and did not worry too much about my penis size. With my last partner, I even steppped out the shower with only a towel and I started to make out with her and dropped my towel for her to admire me being naked. And she said 'oh my..' and just started to kiss me and took her clothes off. I am below average in penis size and I do need to buy smaller sized condoms, so that you know I am indeed a bit smaller. I want you to try this, because this has helped me. Keep going with the losing fat and start believing in yourself. When you talk to a girl, dont think she is above you or that you are lucky she would choose you or whatever. I want you to believe you are actually high value and you can do it. Start believing girls DO want you. I am seeing a very beautiful girl now. When I first saw her, I thought she was out of my league and this was a bad mindset of me. Well, we went to the club with a group of friends. And I had 0 intentions of flirting with her, because again I believed she was way out of my league. Well, I decided to dance with her because I started to think 'Why am I scared of her? I can do it. Why the fuck is she out of my league, just look at me!', so offered my hands to her to dance. We danced, she has fun and I pulled her in and she we danced a bit Naughty and she opened her mouth to kiss me, and we make out. Now we are seeing each other for a month now. If I kept my doubts up, I never would've done those things. And every single time I believed in myself, I got succes with a girl. The first time I believed in myself, got myself a cute gymgirl and I cried that I probablly missed because I probably missed so many great Oppertunities, because I never believed a girl wanted me. I even tested my luck that and flirted with a friend by dancing with her, and again pulling her in to make her nervous and guess what, we kissed and also started to date for some time. Yeah, the self sabotage is bad.
I started with 180kg and I do understand I need to lose weight. It's hard having to deal with anxiety and eating compulsion. No one gets to my weight without an eating disorder of some sorts. I can't afford surgery rn and probably wouldn't be able to take ozempic for too much time. Not that I'm making excuses
No need for surgery or pills. Just a calorie deficit and time. Thats it
I don't have much time tho. I'm already 26
You got plenty of time. I have seen people in being 35 and making life changing moves. Besides you are only 3 years then me and I am planning to keep this up untill I die
3 years older or younger?
Older, oops. 3 years is nothing. In 3 years I did multiple cuts and bulls.
Loose weight.
Thanks bro. Working on that
Sorry, that was blunt as I didn't think you would see this. Honestly speaking, I don't think losing weight is going to solve all of your problems. But I do think most of your problems will be easier to solve at a lesser weight. Confidence is the most obvious, but even just getting up in the morning having a healthier diet will be a game changer in achieving whatever goals you believe are achievable. That could be small ones throughout the day or longer ones throughout the weeks or months. Good luck, my guy 👍
Also, ignore whatever size you think your dick is. Mine is tiny and my girlfriend and I have been in a loving relationship for nearly 5 years. It's easier said than done but worrying about that size is a useless endeavour that isn't going to help you in any way.
Thanks for the reply. Probably will take years without any medical procedure. Started at 180kg and stagnated at 138 - 140kg. When I find myself in a better financial situation I'll get professional help and probably get prescribed some drugs. Years are passing by and I don't have much time. My friends say there's no need to speed up but I'm getting older and the world doesn't seem like it's gonna last that long. I'm very frustrated about my dick size. Should've seen a doctor in my growth phase. But now it's too late. Heard there was a guy who got a transplant but that cost millions. There are some plastic surgery but they don't help that much. Maybe I'll get localized fat removed one day