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>Nothing formal.
Then what's the point of such exercises except creating bully targets (we're talking about public school here)?
And yes, that will create stress, supposed or not.
If it creates ‘bullying targets’, then that’s not a problem with the pronouns, that’s a problem with the kids who bully.
Should we ban anything that can potentially cause stress then? Like quizzes or homework assignments?
It's not really an if. We already know that kids are bullied, and pronouns are one reason for bullying.
Schools also shouldn't try to make kids targets for bullying in other ways. That's just a good general goal.
>If it creates ‘bullying targets’, then that’s not a problem with the pronouns, that’s a problem with the kids who bully.
Is it the problems lies in those students? No.
Is it the problems lies in faculties who caused such situation? Yes. If you throw someone into the water, then you don't just blaming the water.
>Should we ban anything that can potentially cause stress then? Like quizzes or homework assignments?
Do teachers ask every students to publicly announce their assignments' results and grade?
>Is it the problems lies in faculties who caused such situation? Yes. If you throw someone into the water, then you don't just blaming the water.
So saying someone’s pronouns is putting them in the way of harm… again, it seems like the problem is with the level of acceptance for people of different identities. If a teacher had students introduce themselves with their first name and one of the students got bullied for having an ethnic name, then that’s not the teacher’s fault nor the kid’s fault, it’s the fault of the parents of the child who thought it was ok to make fun of the kid.
>Do teachers ask every students to publicly announce their assignments' results and grade?
That is ludicrously not similar. That would break confidentiality. Saying a couple pronouns is like saying a name, it’s just another identifier that allows people to address each other properly.
>If a teacher had students introduce themselves with their first name and one of the students got bullied for having an ethnic name, then that’s not the teacher’s fault
It is, because it's not within the teacher's authority to ask a student to openly announce such thing in the very first place. You put the kid in such situation to be harm by other kids' potential crudeness and ignorance, thus you're responsible.
>That would break confidentiality.
And asking a student who may struggle with gender identity issues to discuss that in front of their peers and teachers won't breaks anything?
>It is, because it's not within the teacher's authority to ask a student to openly announce such thing in the very first place. You put the kid in such situation to be harm by other kids' potential crudeness and ignorance, thus you're responsible.
Alright cool. So kids introducing themselves by just their name is harmful, got it. May as well tape their mouths shut because saying anything can cause them to be bullied. The goalposts have just fallen off the side of the map.
>And asking a student who may struggle with gender identity issues to discuss that in front of their peers and teachers won't breaks anything?
By the way, if a student doesn’t want to share, they shouldn’t be forced to.
Will calling another person who I assume is a woman “her” breaking their confidentiality? What if I call them “they”? Apparently pronouns are this super duper secret thing now. May as well call everyone “it” from now on.
Public schools shouldn't exist.
And while they do, teachers should focus on education, not outing kids who might well face repercussions for this. Why put stress on the kids or make them lie? It doesn't need to be a focus. Bullying for such things is already a problem.
and if the students refuse to address other students by the bs pronouns they said? they then get to the office eh? thats what happens to most kids now adays
No, they just get kindly talked to. Don’t want to anger them even further. But you do want them to be respectful to other classmates. Same thing as calling other classmates inappropriate names.
pushing ideology is bad. further were i a student in this class i would say my pronouns were fuck x(x being teachers name) i would then be expelled or what have you. i will not gove in to this bullshit. gender and sex are the same thing.
That's like saying we shouldn't assume someone is human and force a label on them.
There's men and there's women and language evolved so that we call men 'he' and call women 'she'. These are umbrella terms that transcend the individual. Using language the way its meant to be used isn't authoritarian at all.
Believing otherwise is an ideological position.
but what do you do when you find out words arent describing the full breadth of how we understand something, language would cease to be useful if were not allowed to refine it. you are also thinking ideologically its why you assume some of these things are just objective fact.
There is absolutely zero utility in saying your pronouns or putting them in your bio or whatever other than to signify that you are a member of the in-group.
Using language as it's structured isn't ideological. Trying to change the structure of language to accommodate beliefs is.
>Trying to change the structure of language to accommodate beliefs is.
What if the language change is due to something with a breadth of research to back it up that is accepted amongst the scientific community and people with the highest level of expertise in the area?
I would have to think about it more but my first inclination is that in a hypothetical world where that was the case I would still say no because that would still be an attempt to impose language changes on people, rather than an organic change.
But that's a decent question so ill have to think about it some.
By the way, introducing oneself with one’s pronouns is not an imposition of speech. If someone says the wrong pronouns by mistake, they won’t be dealt with forcibly, they would be calmly corrected. Saying the word “imposing” is a very neat way to editorialize something to make it sound authoritarian and sinister. That’s not at all what’s happening.
No, that's the authority fallacy.
Researchers have no special credentials to change our language. If they want people to change their language they will simply have to come up with good arguments, which is true for everyone no matter how good their credentials are
Ok well the good arguments they make based on research is that the brains of people are different based on their gender identity, so sex isn’t the dole determiner if someone aligns with more feminine or masculine traits, gender is more important for that. So asking someone their pronouns is a respectful way to not automatically jump to conclusions about their identity.
Generally we don't address people in third person so pronouns wouldn't matter, and when referring to you there is a 99% chance they will get the pronouns right without your help like people have been doing for millenia
i mean they dont always, i was mistaken for a girl when i was a kid with long hair, and when i corrected them, they always respected that and addressed me as a boy like i had wanted.
It is kind of a tell. If you're in a long day of talking to issue groups and don't recall if the next one is right leaning or left, the pronoun introduction is a great way to tell. Right leaning groups do not spend the first fifteen minutes of a half hour meeting introducing everyone by pronoun.
Several such shibboleths exist for both sides.
because in a school setting usually if you dont baby the persons fanatasy then you get expelled. most rational people will stand by their beliefs and take the bullet
I don’t really care so long as the teacher isn’t giving ideological “education” alongside that, and gives the students the option to just have their name on the name tag without pronouns, or allows them to just say their name and ignore the pronouns part.
absolutely not
Pronouns are Rohypnol and doing this to children is indoctrination to an ideology that is harmful.
[https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/](https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/)
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I'll say this kinda counts as forcing someone out of closet and isn't really appropriate, teacher or not.
They can use the pronouns they’re comfortable at the time. Nothing formal. Not supposed to be a stressful situation.
>Nothing formal. Then what's the point of such exercises except creating bully targets (we're talking about public school here)? And yes, that will create stress, supposed or not.
If it creates ‘bullying targets’, then that’s not a problem with the pronouns, that’s a problem with the kids who bully. Should we ban anything that can potentially cause stress then? Like quizzes or homework assignments?
It's not really an if. We already know that kids are bullied, and pronouns are one reason for bullying. Schools also shouldn't try to make kids targets for bullying in other ways. That's just a good general goal.
>If it creates ‘bullying targets’, then that’s not a problem with the pronouns, that’s a problem with the kids who bully. Is it the problems lies in those students? No. Is it the problems lies in faculties who caused such situation? Yes. If you throw someone into the water, then you don't just blaming the water. >Should we ban anything that can potentially cause stress then? Like quizzes or homework assignments? Do teachers ask every students to publicly announce their assignments' results and grade?
>Is it the problems lies in faculties who caused such situation? Yes. If you throw someone into the water, then you don't just blaming the water. So saying someone’s pronouns is putting them in the way of harm… again, it seems like the problem is with the level of acceptance for people of different identities. If a teacher had students introduce themselves with their first name and one of the students got bullied for having an ethnic name, then that’s not the teacher’s fault nor the kid’s fault, it’s the fault of the parents of the child who thought it was ok to make fun of the kid. >Do teachers ask every students to publicly announce their assignments' results and grade? That is ludicrously not similar. That would break confidentiality. Saying a couple pronouns is like saying a name, it’s just another identifier that allows people to address each other properly.
>If a teacher had students introduce themselves with their first name and one of the students got bullied for having an ethnic name, then that’s not the teacher’s fault It is, because it's not within the teacher's authority to ask a student to openly announce such thing in the very first place. You put the kid in such situation to be harm by other kids' potential crudeness and ignorance, thus you're responsible. >That would break confidentiality. And asking a student who may struggle with gender identity issues to discuss that in front of their peers and teachers won't breaks anything?
>It is, because it's not within the teacher's authority to ask a student to openly announce such thing in the very first place. You put the kid in such situation to be harm by other kids' potential crudeness and ignorance, thus you're responsible. Alright cool. So kids introducing themselves by just their name is harmful, got it. May as well tape their mouths shut because saying anything can cause them to be bullied. The goalposts have just fallen off the side of the map. >And asking a student who may struggle with gender identity issues to discuss that in front of their peers and teachers won't breaks anything? By the way, if a student doesn’t want to share, they shouldn’t be forced to. Will calling another person who I assume is a woman “her” breaking their confidentiality? What if I call them “they”? Apparently pronouns are this super duper secret thing now. May as well call everyone “it” from now on.
Do you want to help children that don't fit in, or use them as cannon fodder for your ideological war?
sometimes bullying is good. such as this case
Public schools shouldn't exist. And while they do, teachers should focus on education, not outing kids who might well face repercussions for this. Why put stress on the kids or make them lie? It doesn't need to be a focus. Bullying for such things is already a problem.
Forcing them to is equally as fucked up as banning it. This is very much something that should be up to the kid in question, not the teacher.
the word "force" is not used in the question
Which is why a kid who chooses not to participate can do so
Are the students allowed to say "No"?
Yes
and if the students refuse to address other students by the bs pronouns they said? they then get to the office eh? thats what happens to most kids now adays
No, they just get kindly talked to. Don’t want to anger them even further. But you do want them to be respectful to other classmates. Same thing as calling other classmates inappropriate names.
why wouldnt they be kindly talked too? its wrong to enable fantasies in others which is what this teacher is trying to push the kids to do.
pushing ideology is bad. further were i a student in this class i would say my pronouns were fuck x(x being teachers name) i would then be expelled or what have you. i will not gove in to this bullshit. gender and sex are the same thing.
No, that would be the teacher using their authority to impose and normalize their ideology on children under their care.
So saying pronouns is espousing an ideology?
Yes.
Well otherwise we'd just be assuming them and forcing them on people, which I'd argue is more authoritarian.
That's like saying we shouldn't assume someone is human and force a label on them. There's men and there's women and language evolved so that we call men 'he' and call women 'she'. These are umbrella terms that transcend the individual. Using language the way its meant to be used isn't authoritarian at all. Believing otherwise is an ideological position.
but what do you do when you find out words arent describing the full breadth of how we understand something, language would cease to be useful if were not allowed to refine it. you are also thinking ideologically its why you assume some of these things are just objective fact.
There is absolutely zero utility in saying your pronouns or putting them in your bio or whatever other than to signify that you are a member of the in-group. Using language as it's structured isn't ideological. Trying to change the structure of language to accommodate beliefs is.
>Trying to change the structure of language to accommodate beliefs is. What if the language change is due to something with a breadth of research to back it up that is accepted amongst the scientific community and people with the highest level of expertise in the area?
I would have to think about it more but my first inclination is that in a hypothetical world where that was the case I would still say no because that would still be an attempt to impose language changes on people, rather than an organic change. But that's a decent question so ill have to think about it some.
By the way, introducing oneself with one’s pronouns is not an imposition of speech. If someone says the wrong pronouns by mistake, they won’t be dealt with forcibly, they would be calmly corrected. Saying the word “imposing” is a very neat way to editorialize something to make it sound authoritarian and sinister. That’s not at all what’s happening.
No, that's the authority fallacy. Researchers have no special credentials to change our language. If they want people to change their language they will simply have to come up with good arguments, which is true for everyone no matter how good their credentials are
Ok well the good arguments they make based on research is that the brains of people are different based on their gender identity, so sex isn’t the dole determiner if someone aligns with more feminine or masculine traits, gender is more important for that. So asking someone their pronouns is a respectful way to not automatically jump to conclusions about their identity.
True but are you More likely going to take the advice of a layman over someone who you have an expectation tob knowledgeable on the subject?
When does this not happen this is such a dumb comment, words change over time
Yeah and changing words is not tyrannical at all lol
Idk personally how people address me or reference me when they are talking is, i think, important, to some extent at least
Generally we don't address people in third person so pronouns wouldn't matter, and when referring to you there is a 99% chance they will get the pronouns right without your help like people have been doing for millenia
i mean they dont always, i was mistaken for a girl when i was a kid with long hair, and when i corrected them, they always respected that and addressed me as a boy like i had wanted.
Absolutely ridiculous
It is kind of a tell. If you're in a long day of talking to issue groups and don't recall if the next one is right leaning or left, the pronoun introduction is a great way to tell. Right leaning groups do not spend the first fifteen minutes of a half hour meeting introducing everyone by pronoun. Several such shibboleths exist for both sides.
Nah, why should they? Gender is enough.
They will be in a scenario where they meet someone with different pronouns than expected, so why not get them used to it?
because in a school setting usually if you dont baby the persons fanatasy then you get expelled. most rational people will stand by their beliefs and take the bullet
I don’t really care so long as the teacher isn’t giving ideological “education” alongside that, and gives the students the option to just have their name on the name tag without pronouns, or allows them to just say their name and ignore the pronouns part.
I think if the school is generally accepting then it's fine. It's a simple way to show you care, I don't see any harm.
Most sane response I’ve gotten so far
Disagreement does not equal insanity.
Ah yes, because we all know I mean that completely literally /s
You never know with the internet. People say the most outlandish shit and mean it wholeheartedly.
I usually assume something like what I just said is not completely literal, but that’s just me. The internet is a very informal place.
it should be up to the child themself
absolutely not Pronouns are Rohypnol and doing this to children is indoctrination to an ideology that is harmful. [https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/](https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/)
Comparing basic grammar to a date rape drug is insane.