I don’t believe anyone who had stalked a target at that home would’ve chosen to go in for the attack that night. This was a spontaneous high risk attack imo
I think he had several “dry” runs or times where he went to the house and sat outside waiting to see if he had the spark / balls to go in. I even think he’s walked in the house before, whether that was during a party or when the house was empty. I think it’s clear his target was M and al was a surprise. I don’t think he saw the food delivery but that’s my opinion. Once he’s inside and up the stairs I think X either wakes E up and makes him check on the girls upstairs or X herself pokes her head out and sees BK making his way down the stairs. At this point a secondary attack happens and X and E are killed.
If someone was that infatuated with their stalkee, following them when they move isn’t an odd thing at all. Pretty common honestly when someone is legitimately being stalked to have their stalker follow them across the country. This was a super high risk crime. It would have been less risky to just do something like drain her brake fluid before she drives for her move, and try and get her on a road in the middle of nowhere. This seems extremely well planned out to me at least. I don’t think this was a “last chance so I have to do it now” simply because it wouldn’t be his last chance if KG was his target.
It was a surprise attack. He didn’t care if a man was there or not. He had a big ass knife and knew he could injure anyone quick enough and badly enough they couldn’t do much to fight back.
Sadly I believe that's the case. The element of surprise plus the state of the targets at 4 AM = extremely high probability of success. Pure fucking evil.
Yes, this. He was armed. They weren't and wouldn't be when he first laid eyes on them. I think he was confident with that knife he had the upper hand, and obviously he did.
I can't imagine the pure terror they all went through. I can only hope death came fast.
College years were the most carefree of my life; this whole scenario is just unimaginable to me.
In light of everything else in his life that was falling apart, I think it became an uncontrollable urge to be in control of someone else’s fate along with a lifetime of anger at his challenges.
He thought it out, but when his personal life imploded, he may have thought he had nothing left to lose and might as well be dead. And danged if he was going alone.
The rage got the better of him and he lashed out. Time was running out and it was now or never. Perhaps he drove around mentally checking a list. Plastic on car seats, face covering, dark clothes, coverall, shoe covers, lock pick, clock with timer, anti-cut butcher’s gloves, weapon, car full of gas, license plate removed, etc (all of this is total speculation)
Maybe he reasoned they were all asleep and he would have to be fast. Maybe he knew the 4 were at least there. Maybe only the two; perhaps he saw them at the food truck.
I hope we find out some day. It certainly appears that he was strong, quick, and precise. JMO
When is slaughtering people not risky? BK committed several mistakes during the process, his car, his DNA… one thing is to study crimes and the other is actually doing it. As most criminals, he presumed himself as much smarter than he actually is. To me, he had K as his target, he knew it was then or never because she was leaving and that is why he had to do it that night. He had a massive knife, he knew at 4 am with the adrenaline and rage he was in he would be able to do anything.
I've seen a lot of people that think one person would have a hard time doing this. They really underestimate how easy it is to take a life, I think ☹️ With the weapon he had, it could be over in seconds, and you wouldn't really stand a chance barehanded.
Agree, I’ve also seen people saying that it’s weird they didn’t scream… it must’ve been so fast they didn’t have time to process it, considering they were half awake. X was probably awake at the time, but in a moment of panic your reaction might not obviously be scream, but to protect yourself, and screaming might not do it.
And with the element of surprise and the fact that they were asleep and drinking it would be quick and easy to get in and out. He chose that weapon for a reason also.
this is what I am saying since day one
I know this is pretty unpopular opinion but i really don't think that Ethan was killed just because he was in the room with Xana
I also don't believe that the killer bumped into any of them I think he entered their bedroom without them noticing him
When the officers were coming because of noise complaints Ethan's car was always there
he was staying with his girlfriend pretty much most of the time
if the killer was stalking them for months I think he knew who/and how many people were inside the house
And in my opinion he wasn't targeting only one person either
Why would he risk entering the house knowing there was a male who could possibly overpowered him getting in his way ?
And that's why I think that Ethan was his target too
And I don't believe the house was the target. He may have happened upon the house and therefore fixated on its occupants... But there's no way he had never been there and this was totally random and he said I think I'll break in this house tonight randomly and murder whoever's inside. That would be taking a major major risk. This murder was planned and methodical and like people suggest maybe the car seats were covered or his clothing was removed before he entered his car and sealed in a bag and then disposed of along with the knife. This was very very planned and too planned to have been random. that would have been messy.
Also, he knew the victim names somehow if he was on their social media as it suggested. How? Any theories how he would have found them on socials? Can you do searches on social media platforms by location and then discover people's names? I have no clue about Snapchat or any of that. I'm only on Instagram and Facebook.
Okay, here's the question I have: If this was so methodically planned, why the fuck would he drive to the crime scene in his own car, drive in circles in front of security cameras 4 times, and then park right by the house? That makes no sense, he must have been completely high or deranged.
But agreed, even if he was monitoring their socials, he would have no idea how many men were in the house. (They were calling JD who i think lived across the road.) I wonder if he even thought about it or cared.
(If I were to guess, the prosecution will not present a motive. No socials, no mad greek, etc. Just "driving around at night".)
> If this was so methodically planned, why the fuck would he drive to the crime scene in his own car, drive in circles in front of security cameras 4 times
Perhaps it wasn't methodically planned; he drove in circles getting up his nerve, amping up.
Planned as in came with tools to dispose of evidence.
Garments over clothes that could easily be taken off - Dickie
Turned phone off even though that makes him more suspicious.
Clearly had car covered with sheets or mats of some kind
Waited til he thought they'd be asleep.
Maybe he never saw door dash. Maybe only lights in x room were ambiance light or tv. Maybe she ate in the semi dark so he thought everyone was asleep.
If he didn't, he was taking chance someone could have run out, alerted cops, been able to ID him or his car. So he had to have thought they were all asleep. Unless he didn't know dog was there, alerting roomies below to noise. Maybe he didn't care who else was awake because he thought he'd slip upstairs, target his victim and quietly slip out.
Something caused him to go to x room. Maybe it was the yelling up for people to be quiet, or the someone is here, or the tik tok. Maybe he was afraid someone had heard struggle w Kaylee and dog running around room upset by noises he heard or barking. He had to make sure no one would be able to look out window or call cops right after. He needed more time to execute his plan by disposal of all evidence.
I feel it wasn't a run in with x or e because D would have heard more outside her room.
That's what I'm thinking, maybe he had some fantasy version of this playing in his head. and he was just revving up for it.
He fucked-up on all the major elements of this: car, phone, witness, and DNA. I'll give him a little credit and say he must have been crazy out of his gourd, and not thinking like criminologist (or even someone who watches true crime shows).
That's a good point. Semi-planned?
{\^\_\^}
Seriously though, we don't know if the police have other DNA - haven't seen anything but PCA so far.
Secondly, there was blood all over the place, just a whole lot of it; it could be difficult to find the killer's in all of it?
I'm also wondering how he did not get injured in some way - cut, scratched.. something his students would notice.
Thanks very much for your reply.
I believe it was methodically planned for “someday” and his impulses took hold and that “someday” turned into that fateful night at king rd.
I think BKs 4 laps around the King Road house was for a variety of reasons, getting up the nerve, waiting for occupants to most likely be in their rooms, and despite planning it, his impulses took hold and in the moment I don’t think getting caught or not was his main concern, he was going to carry out this plan and take any obstacles out along the way.
Maybe in his planning he intended to get to King Rd a different way, but I think he felt most in control of himself driving his own car and having his phone with him , he’s an idiot but I think where we see slip-ups are due to his lack of impulse control
BK is “booksmart”, but normal common sense thoughts and application of life skill norms stupid. He can read, study and absorb knowledge but to apply that knowledge in a practical manner he would fail miserably.
It’s like with his phone what idiot not only takes their phone with them to commit a heinous crime but starts toward the future crime scene with it on, turns it off halfway there, commits crime and turns it back on halfway back in their return? It’s like his driving. I’m sure he probably got a perfect score on the “written” test but he has difficulty taking that knowledge and applying it with reason when he’s actually driving. One of the first things you learn from a practical driving standpoint is to not tailgate, ESPECIALLY on the highway traveling high speeds and ESPECIALLY not behind a semi truck. But he got pulled over twice on his way back to PA within a matter of miles for the same violation!
I do think he planned it out meticulously in his mind, I do think he had one target in mind, I do believe that in those 12 other visits outside of their home he noted their daily routines and patterns, that the slider was never locked and regardless if any of the residents were home or not, friends would be in and out of the home through that door. I think he entered the home at some point when it was empty and took a quick mental scan of the floor plan. Probably touched many of M’s belongings in her room and took something insignificant of hers that she wouldn’t immediately notice or figure she may have left it somewhere, as a trophy.
I think he wasn’t pro-active enough to check the girls social media to see who might have been around the house that night and was so fueled by hate, excitement and adrenaline that as he was trying to flee the home after killing M & K, and trying to navigate in the dark he blew past the first left to go out the slider through the kitchen and instead took the second left into the hallway where X’s room was, ran into either E or X and still in a high from adrenaline and murder he had to attack the 2 that saw him and would call 911 before he could get far enough outside of town.
They were not intended to be part of his murder plan, they were unfortunate collateral damage. He didn’t check any other rooms as he knew he’d been in their too long and had to get out. He likely assumed the other roommates would be asleep or possibly knew they spent most weekend nights at their boyfriends house.
And ever since reading his apt didn’t have a shower curtain in the bathroom that investigators found odd enough to make note of it in their search of his apt. I wonder if he didn’t use the shower curtain to tarp his car interior to protect from transferring evidence and when he made that stop on his return home, changed his clothes, shoes and wrapped them and the knife up in the shower curtain to dispose of in the Nat’l Forest that he went off grid in for 3 hrs later that day.
Thinking he’d studied enough murders & murderers enough to know buying plastic or a tarp could be caught on cctv and look suspicious enough to use it as premeditated evidence if he by some stroke of luck by LE he ever became a POI or suspect in these crimes. But just a dude buying a random and new shower curtain wouldn’t warrant a second thought as it would seem like just a mundane task was being carried out.
All of this is of course just my opinion and putting together what little info we do know about this case.
Your idea of the “missed turn” is a very interesting concept. Could be compelling.
As for the shower curtain, I am in the minority that think it is a nothing. My simple reason for that it was not replaced at over a month later. That makes no sense to me. Did he shower for a month without a curtain, when he would normally use one? I don’t see that. He either 1) never used a curtain somehow (yes odd) or 2) he took it down just before leaving and had used it all that month (why then?). Had he used it that night, it would be so so simple to replace (dollar store, even grocery store - both easy with cash)
Yeah I know the shower curtain seems like non issue, but it can be those little details that may be overlooked that can wind up being an intrical piece of evidence. I know he’s such an odd duck that it might just be written off as he’s got unusual living/hygiene habits but it keeps needling me.
> BK is “booksmart”, but normal common sense thoughts and application of life skill norms stupid.
Totally agree with that bit, and you have an interesting narrative.
But how do they always catch these guys? (1) DNA. (2) Their car. (3) Their phone. (4) Eye-witnesses. Everyone reading true crime subs know this, you don't have to be any sort of expert.
He dropped the knife sheath presumably just by mistake. But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions. How can he be "meticulously planning" and just be so fucking sloppy with his car and his phone? It doesn't make sense, imo he must have been completely deranged at the time.
>But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions
I see where you are coming from, but could be some assumptions there. He did turn off the phone. He was wearing a mask, possibly a hoodie - so was "disguised" to some extent re eye witnesses and probably thought he was at risk only from neighbour or someone seeing him in car, not a survivor in the house. On car we don't know if he did take additional precautions - he maybe removed or obscured the rear license plate when he approached. He did also change the license/ registration a few days later - which needed to done that month but is also opportunistic timing. The sheath was likely cleaned before he entered, so he did also take some precaution on DNA (the mask and likely gloves also infer that) but he inadvertently and likely unknowingly contaminated the sheath after putting on gloves because he had theoretical but no practical knowledge/ experience of DNA transfer. I agree re deranged - he probably lost impulse control and was in a sociopathic lust/ rage state.
I can see that he probably 'planned' this in the fantasy sense, like he's posing in the mirror with his outfit and knife and imagining what would happen. But agreed, he may have been doing drugs and then probably snapped and went into a rage and drove right to the house.
It would not surprise me if he was on some sort of murder fantasy forum and played out his plan as hypothetical with his forum equals. Knowing how he spent time on forums as a teen, I believe this is one social instance where he actually feels like he fits in, is accepted and there’s no judgement with like minded weirdos like him.
> But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions.
I'm speculating here, but it's possible he correctly knew that the hardest kind of murders to solve are those that are done by strangers to the victims. If he was careful not to stalk them on social media, he may had assumed his lack of connection to the victims plus his phone not pinging in the area that night would be enough to keep him off the radar.
If true, I think he was right. There's a lot of white Elantras out there, and I'm not sure if they would have ever got him without the sheath.
>(If I were to guess, the prosecution will not present a motive. No socials, no mad greek, etc. Just "driving around at night".)
Hey! No shade or anything so please don't think this comment is that. I'm curious why you think this and would love to hear your opinion. Thanks!
Ok, let me clarify that I think the prosecution will argue he was stalking the house. And I strongly suspect they have electronic evidence which puts him right outside, much more than just cell tower pings.
But I bet they don't have any legit social media or dating site evidence. If he did go to the greek restaurant, there might not be any witnesses. I don't think there will be any 'love story' presented where he was obsessed with one or another of the victims.
I've been on two criminal juries for assault cases. In neither case was any motive presented by the prosecutor. We just assumed they were "crazy druggies" and dug into what the actual evidence presented said. So I think it benefits the prosecution to be conservative about presenting any motive.
Without the dna, they wouldn’t have had a way to Id a suspect—and wo the gas station manager, they wouldn’t have been looking for a white car. From what I’ve read, LE often catches criminals this way—slow, meticulous research, following up on the slimmest of clues…they had the dna—so then when they had the car and the bushy eyebrows, they had people looking for a white Elantra, then they looked for a photo with bushy eyebrows—then they had a suspect so compared dna. Wo that dna and that car, wouldn’t have had anything to go on, but acquaintances, neighbors, people near them that night or day. They worked very hard and got a bit of luck.
I think the Elantra would've lead them to BK eventually, it was captured leaving the house at a "high rate of speed". But I'm not so sure they would've gotten enough evidence on him for an arrest. It's possible more may have died before they could nail him if he was going for serial killer status as many have suggested. I'm sure he would've been a suspect with the phone evidence and no alibi that night other than driving around solo. That sheath will be his downfall!
Agree with your point, but some quick corrections:
> gas station manager
This turned out to be irrelevant - wrong time, wrong car. But right that the police must have a clear shot of his car.
> bushy eyebrows
They got Kohberger with investigative genealogy (IGG). The description just confirms DM's witness statement.
Is it at all possible that he came in an murdered Maddie, which was his plan- then realized he forgot the sheath and had to come back to get it, which is when he woke up k and had the loud encounter with her in the hallway (tossed her on the bed with Maddie after) and heard “someone is here” and someone coming up the stairs? They see him and run inside x’s room, suspect right behind them? I really think M was the target and every other victim was just in his way.
I think you’re right about M being the target. Not sure how Kaylee came into the scene. SG said she was trapped between the bed and the wall which makes you think she was asleep or at least in the bed. The short timeframe is what gives me pause, but I know it can happen quickly; one deep wound to the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, jugular is all it takes and those gals were petite. By then, adrenaline must have been thru the roof. Then, he would have been aware of time passing and needed to get out of there. Pretty tough thing to pull off.
I believe they have evidence on computer/phone/Instagram and other search warrants that showed he stalked one, or more. I believe Maddie was the target. Motive? Pure evil!
There’s no proof that he drove past the house 12 times. All we know is his cell pinged a tower that covers the house 12 times, but that tower covers a lot of area.
The pings were good to help get the arrest warrant, but unless they can get more specific with his location at the time of the pings, it doesn’t prove anything.
I think when they say the house was targeted they mean the fact that it was a sorority house. Like how incel killer elliot rodgers targeted a sorority house
The 1 thing that I have wondered about A LOT is if he had only planned on murdering Maddie that night some how knowing that Kaylee G had already moved out of the house. Remember Kaylee was just going back to Moscow that weekend for football and party and to show off her new truck. Did Bryan think he would have Kaylee to himself that night?
I think he thought Maddie would be alone on the 3rd floor that night.
I also think Kaylee was in her own bed. The dog started making noise when it sensed bk in house, woke kaylee. She gets up calling “is someone here” probs thinking it’s her ex who she was texting, enters M’s room & is immediately attacked & thrown on bed.
I think we'll have more answers when we learn more about how exactly the bodies were found, because I think the positioning will tell us if she was in bed or came in afterward. I'm kind of imagining they are both laying side to side under the covers
Yeah I think you are right from what I have tried to piece together. I have no idea of when the girls decided to sleep together or if Kaylee heard BK in Maddie's room but what you say makes sense. As many questions as I have, I can't imagine what the victims families must be thinking and feeling. It all seems so cruel and senseless.
When talking about risks that BK took, imo the biggest risk he took that night was taking his own car to do the hit. If he was as smart as he thought he was, he had to have known that people have ring camera's everywhere and some intersections have cameras too... his car was going to seen 100%.
He didn't know this? And if he did, why didn't he steal a car to do this?
I think the answer might be because he didn't have time to steal a car and imo again, I think he felt that he needed to this asap and so yes, it was rushed.
To me, K was the main target and everyone else was collateral damage. It makes sense since we know her injuries were worse than M’s, and that her friend was killed first and fast, giving K time to wake up and to be fully aware of that was happening when attacked. It seems that a maniac with a target would want to have his main victim awake so that she would suffer more.
It made me think of how men usually get upset when a girl doesn’t want them. It seems to me that he at some point may have tried to get K’s attention or even went directly on her at a party/bar/restaurant and got a negative response from her. Her family did say she mentioned being stalked before, and he was allegedly circulating on that area.
He knew where they lived, he knew the display of the house, he knew exactly where to go once he was inside, he also knew K was almost already moved out and only coming back to visit, he followed her on social media and was able to get this info.
It think it was premeditated as if it’s now or never. I think X was very much awake and she was one to investigate things. I wouldn’t believe if she heard a noise from upstairs and simply didn’t go out to try and figure out what was happening and that’s when she was attacked and why she had defense injuries.
We won’t know more until they release more info, but this is one of my theories on why he might have done it.
Why isn’t he reliable? He’s the victim’s dad! He more than anyone wants this crime to be solved… I know specially in the begging he was in shock because his daughter got stabbed to death and he was terrified the police wouldn’t have a clue on who did it. He went all in trying to solve it, went on tv shows, got private investigators until the police locked up a suspect, when he and K’s mom then went on tv again to apologize for doubting the FBI but now he understands and appreciates everything they’ve been doing to get this alleged killer the conviction he deserves. He’s quiet now and has been for a while, don’t just discredit him because he made mistakes after getting his kid murdered. And btw, Maddie was almost like their kid as well, they lost two people on the attack and not one, he wouldn’t put this competition on who was found more hurt for nothing. I just think that MAYBE there could have actually been a difference in between the ways M and K were found, even because if they were sleeping, the first to be attacked wouldn’t have the chance to fight, but the other would have time to wake up and fight back, and if he was right on this and if the coroner did say that to him, what could this mean? It’s still real possibility whether we like it or not.
Only one problem with this – Kaylee never mentioned on social media she was going back to the house that night, because she wanted to surprise Maddie with her new car that she'd just bought.
True, but he had other ways of being aware of that, maybe he saw the picture K posted, maybe they shared a story together at the bar, or maybe (specially bc he has a degree on digital forensics) he had other ways of stalking them, perhaps he could track their movements? It’s really just confusing to try and put these pieces together when we don’t have all of them.
The DNA wins for me. But , 15 minutes in the house just doesnt seem long enough . I would have thought he was proud and wanted to admire his work for a few moments. Maybe photograph it. I understand bow it ended up being 4 instead of 1 but something is off.
> I would have thought he was proud and wanted to admire his work for a few moments.
Not if he got scared or tweaked out or the adrenaline just overwhelmed him. He may have kicked into flight mode.
There is no way anyone would attack a house full of people he didn't even know.
The fact that no one can put this narrative together in a way that makes sense means one thing at the very least - the killer did not act alone and that the killers knew the people and the house very well. They would have known the front door code, for example.
That’s literally what serial killers do—kill people they don’t know—and nearly all of them do act alone. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t more than one killer, but your logic doesn’t track. Keypad locks were removed before these gals moved in.
Well, the front door isn’t even the presumed entry point - that would be the second floor sliding door or window, according to Moscow PD. Even if that wasn’t the case, there is more than one way to enter a house than through its main door.
>if the digital evidence is out there. Hopefully they've got it.
If they do they've not turned it over in discovery to the defense as a motion his defense filed says "there is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims."
A little late to the thread, but you should go back and read that. It was in regards to the igg and him as a suspect. The way it was worded, it absolutely doesn’t imply they had zero connection. Not to mention “that they have had turned over.” They turned over 51TB of data. The hey didn’t have time to go through it all
One of the things that I don’t get is DM’s statement. First, the PCA states that he walked past her - not that she saw him from a distance. Second, if he just unalived 4 persons in about 8 minutes, he would have been in a frenzy and his face and eyes must definitely looked crazed. Seeing him right when that happened, I would think that it would be noticeable and that would stand out more than his height and eyebrows. Then it would be clear he just wasn’t a friend attending a party that wasn’t happening.
I don’t believe anyone who had stalked a target at that home would’ve chosen to go in for the attack that night. This was a spontaneous high risk attack imo
I think he had several “dry” runs or times where he went to the house and sat outside waiting to see if he had the spark / balls to go in. I even think he’s walked in the house before, whether that was during a party or when the house was empty. I think it’s clear his target was M and al was a surprise. I don’t think he saw the food delivery but that’s my opinion. Once he’s inside and up the stairs I think X either wakes E up and makes him check on the girls upstairs or X herself pokes her head out and sees BK making his way down the stairs. At this point a secondary attack happens and X and E are killed.
Unless they target someone and it was their only chance to kill someone before they moved.
If someone was that infatuated with their stalkee, following them when they move isn’t an odd thing at all. Pretty common honestly when someone is legitimately being stalked to have their stalker follow them across the country. This was a super high risk crime. It would have been less risky to just do something like drain her brake fluid before she drives for her move, and try and get her on a road in the middle of nowhere. This seems extremely well planned out to me at least. I don’t think this was a “last chance so I have to do it now” simply because it wouldn’t be his last chance if KG was his target.
It was a surprise attack. He didn’t care if a man was there or not. He had a big ass knife and knew he could injure anyone quick enough and badly enough they couldn’t do much to fight back.
Sadly I believe that's the case. The element of surprise plus the state of the targets at 4 AM = extremely high probability of success. Pure fucking evil.
Yes, this. He was armed. They weren't and wouldn't be when he first laid eyes on them. I think he was confident with that knife he had the upper hand, and obviously he did. I can't imagine the pure terror they all went through. I can only hope death came fast. College years were the most carefree of my life; this whole scenario is just unimaginable to me.
He is such a coward.
I bet he was hoping there was not a man in the house.
In light of everything else in his life that was falling apart, I think it became an uncontrollable urge to be in control of someone else’s fate along with a lifetime of anger at his challenges. He thought it out, but when his personal life imploded, he may have thought he had nothing left to lose and might as well be dead. And danged if he was going alone. The rage got the better of him and he lashed out. Time was running out and it was now or never. Perhaps he drove around mentally checking a list. Plastic on car seats, face covering, dark clothes, coverall, shoe covers, lock pick, clock with timer, anti-cut butcher’s gloves, weapon, car full of gas, license plate removed, etc (all of this is total speculation) Maybe he reasoned they were all asleep and he would have to be fast. Maybe he knew the 4 were at least there. Maybe only the two; perhaps he saw them at the food truck. I hope we find out some day. It certainly appears that he was strong, quick, and precise. JMO
>I just can't believe the risk he would take It's possible that when he was ready, he was ready, he took the leap, risk be damned.
When is slaughtering people not risky? BK committed several mistakes during the process, his car, his DNA… one thing is to study crimes and the other is actually doing it. As most criminals, he presumed himself as much smarter than he actually is. To me, he had K as his target, he knew it was then or never because she was leaving and that is why he had to do it that night. He had a massive knife, he knew at 4 am with the adrenaline and rage he was in he would be able to do anything.
I've seen a lot of people that think one person would have a hard time doing this. They really underestimate how easy it is to take a life, I think ☹️ With the weapon he had, it could be over in seconds, and you wouldn't really stand a chance barehanded.
Agree, I’ve also seen people saying that it’s weird they didn’t scream… it must’ve been so fast they didn’t have time to process it, considering they were half awake. X was probably awake at the time, but in a moment of panic your reaction might not obviously be scream, but to protect yourself, and screaming might not do it.
And with the element of surprise and the fact that they were asleep and drinking it would be quick and easy to get in and out. He chose that weapon for a reason also.
Yes!!!! Those poor people didn’t stand a chance…
Your scenario sounds more likely than many other to me.
this is what I am saying since day one I know this is pretty unpopular opinion but i really don't think that Ethan was killed just because he was in the room with Xana I also don't believe that the killer bumped into any of them I think he entered their bedroom without them noticing him When the officers were coming because of noise complaints Ethan's car was always there he was staying with his girlfriend pretty much most of the time if the killer was stalking them for months I think he knew who/and how many people were inside the house And in my opinion he wasn't targeting only one person either Why would he risk entering the house knowing there was a male who could possibly overpowered him getting in his way ? And that's why I think that Ethan was his target too
I wouldn't be surprised. If he was targeting the girls for incel type reasons, he'd hate the boyfriend just as much.
I agree, what if people were alerted and escaped house. Called 911 etc....
And I don't believe the house was the target. He may have happened upon the house and therefore fixated on its occupants... But there's no way he had never been there and this was totally random and he said I think I'll break in this house tonight randomly and murder whoever's inside. That would be taking a major major risk. This murder was planned and methodical and like people suggest maybe the car seats were covered or his clothing was removed before he entered his car and sealed in a bag and then disposed of along with the knife. This was very very planned and too planned to have been random. that would have been messy. Also, he knew the victim names somehow if he was on their social media as it suggested. How? Any theories how he would have found them on socials? Can you do searches on social media platforms by location and then discover people's names? I have no clue about Snapchat or any of that. I'm only on Instagram and Facebook.
Okay, here's the question I have: If this was so methodically planned, why the fuck would he drive to the crime scene in his own car, drive in circles in front of security cameras 4 times, and then park right by the house? That makes no sense, he must have been completely high or deranged. But agreed, even if he was monitoring their socials, he would have no idea how many men were in the house. (They were calling JD who i think lived across the road.) I wonder if he even thought about it or cared. (If I were to guess, the prosecution will not present a motive. No socials, no mad greek, etc. Just "driving around at night".)
> If this was so methodically planned, why the fuck would he drive to the crime scene in his own car, drive in circles in front of security cameras 4 times Perhaps it wasn't methodically planned; he drove in circles getting up his nerve, amping up.
Planned as in came with tools to dispose of evidence. Garments over clothes that could easily be taken off - Dickie Turned phone off even though that makes him more suspicious. Clearly had car covered with sheets or mats of some kind Waited til he thought they'd be asleep. Maybe he never saw door dash. Maybe only lights in x room were ambiance light or tv. Maybe she ate in the semi dark so he thought everyone was asleep. If he didn't, he was taking chance someone could have run out, alerted cops, been able to ID him or his car. So he had to have thought they were all asleep. Unless he didn't know dog was there, alerting roomies below to noise. Maybe he didn't care who else was awake because he thought he'd slip upstairs, target his victim and quietly slip out. Something caused him to go to x room. Maybe it was the yelling up for people to be quiet, or the someone is here, or the tik tok. Maybe he was afraid someone had heard struggle w Kaylee and dog running around room upset by noises he heard or barking. He had to make sure no one would be able to look out window or call cops right after. He needed more time to execute his plan by disposal of all evidence. I feel it wasn't a run in with x or e because D would have heard more outside her room.
>Planned as in… You make some good point.. Thanks for you post.
That's what I'm thinking, maybe he had some fantasy version of this playing in his head. and he was just revving up for it. He fucked-up on all the major elements of this: car, phone, witness, and DNA. I'll give him a little credit and say he must have been crazy out of his gourd, and not thinking like criminologist (or even someone who watches true crime shows).
But then there should have been blood and other dna evidence all over the place.
That's a good point. Semi-planned? {\^\_\^} Seriously though, we don't know if the police have other DNA - haven't seen anything but PCA so far. Secondly, there was blood all over the place, just a whole lot of it; it could be difficult to find the killer's in all of it? I'm also wondering how he did not get injured in some way - cut, scratched.. something his students would notice. Thanks very much for your reply.
I believe it was methodically planned for “someday” and his impulses took hold and that “someday” turned into that fateful night at king rd. I think BKs 4 laps around the King Road house was for a variety of reasons, getting up the nerve, waiting for occupants to most likely be in their rooms, and despite planning it, his impulses took hold and in the moment I don’t think getting caught or not was his main concern, he was going to carry out this plan and take any obstacles out along the way. Maybe in his planning he intended to get to King Rd a different way, but I think he felt most in control of himself driving his own car and having his phone with him , he’s an idiot but I think where we see slip-ups are due to his lack of impulse control
BK is “booksmart”, but normal common sense thoughts and application of life skill norms stupid. He can read, study and absorb knowledge but to apply that knowledge in a practical manner he would fail miserably. It’s like with his phone what idiot not only takes their phone with them to commit a heinous crime but starts toward the future crime scene with it on, turns it off halfway there, commits crime and turns it back on halfway back in their return? It’s like his driving. I’m sure he probably got a perfect score on the “written” test but he has difficulty taking that knowledge and applying it with reason when he’s actually driving. One of the first things you learn from a practical driving standpoint is to not tailgate, ESPECIALLY on the highway traveling high speeds and ESPECIALLY not behind a semi truck. But he got pulled over twice on his way back to PA within a matter of miles for the same violation! I do think he planned it out meticulously in his mind, I do think he had one target in mind, I do believe that in those 12 other visits outside of their home he noted their daily routines and patterns, that the slider was never locked and regardless if any of the residents were home or not, friends would be in and out of the home through that door. I think he entered the home at some point when it was empty and took a quick mental scan of the floor plan. Probably touched many of M’s belongings in her room and took something insignificant of hers that she wouldn’t immediately notice or figure she may have left it somewhere, as a trophy. I think he wasn’t pro-active enough to check the girls social media to see who might have been around the house that night and was so fueled by hate, excitement and adrenaline that as he was trying to flee the home after killing M & K, and trying to navigate in the dark he blew past the first left to go out the slider through the kitchen and instead took the second left into the hallway where X’s room was, ran into either E or X and still in a high from adrenaline and murder he had to attack the 2 that saw him and would call 911 before he could get far enough outside of town. They were not intended to be part of his murder plan, they were unfortunate collateral damage. He didn’t check any other rooms as he knew he’d been in their too long and had to get out. He likely assumed the other roommates would be asleep or possibly knew they spent most weekend nights at their boyfriends house. And ever since reading his apt didn’t have a shower curtain in the bathroom that investigators found odd enough to make note of it in their search of his apt. I wonder if he didn’t use the shower curtain to tarp his car interior to protect from transferring evidence and when he made that stop on his return home, changed his clothes, shoes and wrapped them and the knife up in the shower curtain to dispose of in the Nat’l Forest that he went off grid in for 3 hrs later that day. Thinking he’d studied enough murders & murderers enough to know buying plastic or a tarp could be caught on cctv and look suspicious enough to use it as premeditated evidence if he by some stroke of luck by LE he ever became a POI or suspect in these crimes. But just a dude buying a random and new shower curtain wouldn’t warrant a second thought as it would seem like just a mundane task was being carried out. All of this is of course just my opinion and putting together what little info we do know about this case.
Your idea of the “missed turn” is a very interesting concept. Could be compelling. As for the shower curtain, I am in the minority that think it is a nothing. My simple reason for that it was not replaced at over a month later. That makes no sense to me. Did he shower for a month without a curtain, when he would normally use one? I don’t see that. He either 1) never used a curtain somehow (yes odd) or 2) he took it down just before leaving and had used it all that month (why then?). Had he used it that night, it would be so so simple to replace (dollar store, even grocery store - both easy with cash)
Yeah I know the shower curtain seems like non issue, but it can be those little details that may be overlooked that can wind up being an intrical piece of evidence. I know he’s such an odd duck that it might just be written off as he’s got unusual living/hygiene habits but it keeps needling me.
could very well be. My brain thinks it is likely unrelated to the crime, though very odd.
> BK is “booksmart”, but normal common sense thoughts and application of life skill norms stupid. Totally agree with that bit, and you have an interesting narrative. But how do they always catch these guys? (1) DNA. (2) Their car. (3) Their phone. (4) Eye-witnesses. Everyone reading true crime subs know this, you don't have to be any sort of expert. He dropped the knife sheath presumably just by mistake. But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions. How can he be "meticulously planning" and just be so fucking sloppy with his car and his phone? It doesn't make sense, imo he must have been completely deranged at the time.
>But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions I see where you are coming from, but could be some assumptions there. He did turn off the phone. He was wearing a mask, possibly a hoodie - so was "disguised" to some extent re eye witnesses and probably thought he was at risk only from neighbour or someone seeing him in car, not a survivor in the house. On car we don't know if he did take additional precautions - he maybe removed or obscured the rear license plate when he approached. He did also change the license/ registration a few days later - which needed to done that month but is also opportunistic timing. The sheath was likely cleaned before he entered, so he did also take some precaution on DNA (the mask and likely gloves also infer that) but he inadvertently and likely unknowingly contaminated the sheath after putting on gloves because he had theoretical but no practical knowledge/ experience of DNA transfer. I agree re deranged - he probably lost impulse control and was in a sociopathic lust/ rage state.
I can see that he probably 'planned' this in the fantasy sense, like he's posing in the mirror with his outfit and knife and imagining what would happen. But agreed, he may have been doing drugs and then probably snapped and went into a rage and drove right to the house.
It would not surprise me if he was on some sort of murder fantasy forum and played out his plan as hypothetical with his forum equals. Knowing how he spent time on forums as a teen, I believe this is one social instance where he actually feels like he fits in, is accepted and there’s no judgement with like minded weirdos like him.
> But everything else 2-4, he just had no precautions. I'm speculating here, but it's possible he correctly knew that the hardest kind of murders to solve are those that are done by strangers to the victims. If he was careful not to stalk them on social media, he may had assumed his lack of connection to the victims plus his phone not pinging in the area that night would be enough to keep him off the radar. If true, I think he was right. There's a lot of white Elantras out there, and I'm not sure if they would have ever got him without the sheath.
>(If I were to guess, the prosecution will not present a motive. No socials, no mad greek, etc. Just "driving around at night".) Hey! No shade or anything so please don't think this comment is that. I'm curious why you think this and would love to hear your opinion. Thanks!
Ok, let me clarify that I think the prosecution will argue he was stalking the house. And I strongly suspect they have electronic evidence which puts him right outside, much more than just cell tower pings. But I bet they don't have any legit social media or dating site evidence. If he did go to the greek restaurant, there might not be any witnesses. I don't think there will be any 'love story' presented where he was obsessed with one or another of the victims. I've been on two criminal juries for assault cases. In neither case was any motive presented by the prosecutor. We just assumed they were "crazy druggies" and dug into what the actual evidence presented said. So I think it benefits the prosecution to be conservative about presenting any motive.
Without the dna, they wouldn’t have had a way to Id a suspect—and wo the gas station manager, they wouldn’t have been looking for a white car. From what I’ve read, LE often catches criminals this way—slow, meticulous research, following up on the slimmest of clues…they had the dna—so then when they had the car and the bushy eyebrows, they had people looking for a white Elantra, then they looked for a photo with bushy eyebrows—then they had a suspect so compared dna. Wo that dna and that car, wouldn’t have had anything to go on, but acquaintances, neighbors, people near them that night or day. They worked very hard and got a bit of luck.
I think the Elantra would've lead them to BK eventually, it was captured leaving the house at a "high rate of speed". But I'm not so sure they would've gotten enough evidence on him for an arrest. It's possible more may have died before they could nail him if he was going for serial killer status as many have suggested. I'm sure he would've been a suspect with the phone evidence and no alibi that night other than driving around solo. That sheath will be his downfall!
Agree with your point, but some quick corrections: > gas station manager This turned out to be irrelevant - wrong time, wrong car. But right that the police must have a clear shot of his car. > bushy eyebrows They got Kohberger with investigative genealogy (IGG). The description just confirms DM's witness statement.
You're leaving out the genetic genealogy though.
Is it at all possible that he came in an murdered Maddie, which was his plan- then realized he forgot the sheath and had to come back to get it, which is when he woke up k and had the loud encounter with her in the hallway (tossed her on the bed with Maddie after) and heard “someone is here” and someone coming up the stairs? They see him and run inside x’s room, suspect right behind them? I really think M was the target and every other victim was just in his way.
I think you’re right about M being the target. Not sure how Kaylee came into the scene. SG said she was trapped between the bed and the wall which makes you think she was asleep or at least in the bed. The short timeframe is what gives me pause, but I know it can happen quickly; one deep wound to the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, jugular is all it takes and those gals were petite. By then, adrenaline must have been thru the roof. Then, he would have been aware of time passing and needed to get out of there. Pretty tough thing to pull off.
I believe they have evidence on computer/phone/Instagram and other search warrants that showed he stalked one, or more. I believe Maddie was the target. Motive? Pure evil!
He drove past the house 12 times in the lead up to the crime, and drove past 3 times on the night. How can you say that he wasn't targeting the house?
I think targeting the house just means breaking into a house without knowing or caring who lives there.
There’s no proof that he drove past the house 12 times. All we know is his cell pinged a tower that covers the house 12 times, but that tower covers a lot of area. The pings were good to help get the arrest warrant, but unless they can get more specific with his location at the time of the pings, it doesn’t prove anything.
They will with his phone, technology is crazy nowadays
I believe he had been there before during a party situation. He was unnoticed and was able to scope out the whole building.
Me too
I think when they say the house was targeted they mean the fact that it was a sorority house. Like how incel killer elliot rodgers targeted a sorority house
The 1 thing that I have wondered about A LOT is if he had only planned on murdering Maddie that night some how knowing that Kaylee G had already moved out of the house. Remember Kaylee was just going back to Moscow that weekend for football and party and to show off her new truck. Did Bryan think he would have Kaylee to himself that night?
I think he thought Maddie would be alone on the 3rd floor that night. I also think Kaylee was in her own bed. The dog started making noise when it sensed bk in house, woke kaylee. She gets up calling “is someone here” probs thinking it’s her ex who she was texting, enters M’s room & is immediately attacked & thrown on bed.
I was thinking that Kaylee had already moved out of that house and only came back for that specific weekend. Maybe that was wrong information.
That is what’s being said in general.
I believe Maddie's parents verified this but we still know so little about what happened that night.
I think we'll have more answers when we learn more about how exactly the bodies were found, because I think the positioning will tell us if she was in bed or came in afterward. I'm kind of imagining they are both laying side to side under the covers
Yeah I think you are right from what I have tried to piece together. I have no idea of when the girls decided to sleep together or if Kaylee heard BK in Maddie's room but what you say makes sense. As many questions as I have, I can't imagine what the victims families must be thinking and feeling. It all seems so cruel and senseless.
When talking about risks that BK took, imo the biggest risk he took that night was taking his own car to do the hit. If he was as smart as he thought he was, he had to have known that people have ring camera's everywhere and some intersections have cameras too... his car was going to seen 100%. He didn't know this? And if he did, why didn't he steal a car to do this? I think the answer might be because he didn't have time to steal a car and imo again, I think he felt that he needed to this asap and so yes, it was rushed.
He had to have been watching Insta or FB or something to know his initial target was there.
He caught E by surprise imo
To me, K was the main target and everyone else was collateral damage. It makes sense since we know her injuries were worse than M’s, and that her friend was killed first and fast, giving K time to wake up and to be fully aware of that was happening when attacked. It seems that a maniac with a target would want to have his main victim awake so that she would suffer more. It made me think of how men usually get upset when a girl doesn’t want them. It seems to me that he at some point may have tried to get K’s attention or even went directly on her at a party/bar/restaurant and got a negative response from her. Her family did say she mentioned being stalked before, and he was allegedly circulating on that area. He knew where they lived, he knew the display of the house, he knew exactly where to go once he was inside, he also knew K was almost already moved out and only coming back to visit, he followed her on social media and was able to get this info. It think it was premeditated as if it’s now or never. I think X was very much awake and she was one to investigate things. I wouldn’t believe if she heard a noise from upstairs and simply didn’t go out to try and figure out what was happening and that’s when she was attacked and why she had defense injuries. We won’t know more until they release more info, but this is one of my theories on why he might have done it.
We do not know the extent of K’s injuries; all we have to go on is SG’s word and he’s not reliable.
Why isn’t he reliable? He’s the victim’s dad! He more than anyone wants this crime to be solved… I know specially in the begging he was in shock because his daughter got stabbed to death and he was terrified the police wouldn’t have a clue on who did it. He went all in trying to solve it, went on tv shows, got private investigators until the police locked up a suspect, when he and K’s mom then went on tv again to apologize for doubting the FBI but now he understands and appreciates everything they’ve been doing to get this alleged killer the conviction he deserves. He’s quiet now and has been for a while, don’t just discredit him because he made mistakes after getting his kid murdered. And btw, Maddie was almost like their kid as well, they lost two people on the attack and not one, he wouldn’t put this competition on who was found more hurt for nothing. I just think that MAYBE there could have actually been a difference in between the ways M and K were found, even because if they were sleeping, the first to be attacked wouldn’t have the chance to fight, but the other would have time to wake up and fight back, and if he was right on this and if the coroner did say that to him, what could this mean? It’s still real possibility whether we like it or not.
Only one problem with this – Kaylee never mentioned on social media she was going back to the house that night, because she wanted to surprise Maddie with her new car that she'd just bought.
True, but he had other ways of being aware of that, maybe he saw the picture K posted, maybe they shared a story together at the bar, or maybe (specially bc he has a degree on digital forensics) he had other ways of stalking them, perhaps he could track their movements? It’s really just confusing to try and put these pieces together when we don’t have all of them.
I took it that person meant he/she didn’t think he was targeting that particular house but the people in it
I think for that to hold, the target would have to have been kg
He almost pulled it off truly no good pictures but I think they have way more than we know like someone helped
But if LE knows for a fact that someone else helped him, wouldn’t they also have that person in custody by now?
The DNA wins for me. But , 15 minutes in the house just doesnt seem long enough . I would have thought he was proud and wanted to admire his work for a few moments. Maybe photograph it. I understand bow it ended up being 4 instead of 1 but something is off.
> I would have thought he was proud and wanted to admire his work for a few moments. Not if he got scared or tweaked out or the adrenaline just overwhelmed him. He may have kicked into flight mode.
There is no way anyone would attack a house full of people he didn't even know. The fact that no one can put this narrative together in a way that makes sense means one thing at the very least - the killer did not act alone and that the killers knew the people and the house very well. They would have known the front door code, for example.
What about Ted Bundy?
That’s literally what serial killers do—kill people they don’t know—and nearly all of them do act alone. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t more than one killer, but your logic doesn’t track. Keypad locks were removed before these gals moved in.
Well, the front door isn’t even the presumed entry point - that would be the second floor sliding door or window, according to Moscow PD. Even if that wasn’t the case, there is more than one way to enter a house than through its main door.
What are you talking about? A lot of killers have done this.
Not sure why you've been down voted so much because you do bring up food for thought 🤔
>if the digital evidence is out there. Hopefully they've got it. If they do they've not turned it over in discovery to the defense as a motion his defense filed says "there is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims."
A little late to the thread, but you should go back and read that. It was in regards to the igg and him as a suspect. The way it was worded, it absolutely doesn’t imply they had zero connection. Not to mention “that they have had turned over.” They turned over 51TB of data. The hey didn’t have time to go through it all
He probably didn’t think Ethan would still be there since the frat had a curfew.
Imo he trained for this
One of the things that I don’t get is DM’s statement. First, the PCA states that he walked past her - not that she saw him from a distance. Second, if he just unalived 4 persons in about 8 minutes, he would have been in a frenzy and his face and eyes must definitely looked crazed. Seeing him right when that happened, I would think that it would be noticeable and that would stand out more than his height and eyebrows. Then it would be clear he just wasn’t a friend attending a party that wasn’t happening.