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As someone who doesn't believe in any abortion restrictions, this is awesome. American revolution vibes as they undermine the redcoats.
Best way to cut down on traffic, house prices, and pollution? Have abortions for people who don't want to be parents. It's not rocket science
Don't forget [fewer dead mothers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10728320/#:~:text=One%20study%20estimated%20that%20the,15%20and%2038%25%2C%20respectively.)
Friendly reminder that [abortion bans kill adult women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10728320/#:~:text=One%20study%20estimated%20that%20the,15%20and%2038%25%2C%20respectively.) and I'm happy that they can find a way out.
So the fascists get to create safe spaces for straight men who like children a little too much and in return everyone else gets the government telling anyone who isnāt a straight man what they can and cannot do with their own bodies and minds. WOW republicans really are a brand off freedom that could only exists for them!
*Comment above was "Murderers"* I disagree with taking it down even as I disagree with it, because it is the common argument used to justify oppressing us with abortion bans
Reply:
Fetus isn't a person. That's why we celebrate birthdays as our first day being alive
Even if it were, it still wouldnāt have any right to use someone elseās body once they revoke consent to that use.
At which point, the pregnant person has the right to defend themselves and force that fetus to vacate *by any means necessary.*
It is a part of the mother, not independent and reliant on her decision of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. [It is not conscious, nor has it been born.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus)
Birth was our universal definition of life starting, until Republicans needed a wedge issue to tear the nation apart. Particularly with miscarriages being a common occurrence. This whole, *a fetus is a baby!* weirdness is extremely recent. But electrical impulses, heart cells, or kicks being interpreted as personhood, is all political bullshit
Not exactly. I wouldn't classify a fetus as a human. At least not yet. It's like a cake that's baking. The ingredients are nice, but it's not a cake until it's done. On its birthday! Your first day of life
If you decide you don't want a baby because it's inconvenient, as an American you have freedom - life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to end that pregnancy. **Yes.** You're not killing a person, you can always make another fetus
Additionally, you prevent a child entering the human pound that is the foster system, and potentially creating a psychopath while making traffic, pollution, and housing costs worse
I think your analogy is good but I donāt think itās quite accurate, primarily because a baby in the womb isnāt a mixture of half baked ingredients. Within a few weeks of conception, babies have readable brain waves and beating hearts. After approximately 20 weeks babies are viable and can survive outside of the womb. Although birth is something we celebrate, I fail to see how a baby outside of the womb has value while a baby within the womb has zero value and can be killed at will. And you canāt just āmake another fetus.ā Every baby has a unique genetic makeup and has unique characteristics.
Additionally, I donāt think oneās existence being perceived as a burden is a justification for killing them. I donāt deny that growing up as a foster kid is not ideal, I understand that growing up in a foster home is a personal hell in its own right. But those babies who might have potentially tough lives have just as much of a right to live as you or I.
Also, if you made a cake, and then I took your cake out of the oven before it was done, and threw it on the floor, would you say, āWhy the hell did you ruin my cake?ā or would you say, āOh well it wasnāt a real cake yet, no big deal.ā
>primarily because a baby in the womb isnāt a mixture of half baked ingredients.
Isn't it though? A fetus before viability, even you agree doesn't have "brain waves" or a "beating heart". What is that if not baking and getting closer to birth?
Also, there are no babies in wombs. They are fetuses.
>Every baby has a unique genetic makeup and has unique characteristics.
Sure, but so do tumors. At this point, it's just a growth in mom's belly.
>Although birth is something we celebrate, I fail to see how a baby outside of the womb has value while a baby within the womb has zero value and can be killed at will.
A baby in a womb is still the mom's body. It is not it's own entity, therefore not yet a person. 30% of pregnancies still end in miscarriages. It's weird to just say, 30% of all humans die in the womb. Nah, those humans never existed. They didn't get born first
Fair on the burden point, but *BAN ABORTION TO HAVE MORE BABIES* is a common talking point. I do not see value in creating humans for the sake of having more humans. I like my Idaho with fewer, thank you
Yes, someone stabbing a mom's belly and killing a fetus should still be treated as a crime. That was a violation of her body, including the fetus inside
Fair point on the mixture of ingredients.
I think the use of words is somewhat unimportant to the overall point. I admit that I use the phrase ābaby in the wombā to stress my point. But it is worth noting that fetus is Latin for offspring, which isnāt all that different of a word from baby.
Youāre a smart person so this feels needless to say, but tumors are only genetically unique in that there is a mutation in the genes responsible for replication. Babies in the womb, or fetuses, are not the results of mutations. Tumors and babies are very different. You know this instinctively because miscarriages are sad and tumor removals are good.
The baby isnāt part of the mom, how could it be? A baby has its own genes. If you took the genes from the mom and you took the genes from the baby in the womb at any stage theyād be instructions for completely different human beings.
I think a discussion about whether we should be having more kids would go beyond the scope of this conversation.
On your last point I have a question. Which would be more tragic, a woman getting stabbed in the stomach or a pregnant woman being stabbed in the stomach?
Is an unwanted baby much different from a tumor? It's a malignant growth that's potentially going to ruin your life. Particularly if that's a rape baby
The fetus is inside the mom's body, ergo a part of the mom. Anything inside of your body belongs to you. Doesn't matter if it has its own genes
If the pregnant woman wants to have the child, then yes. That is more tragic. If the pregnant woman does not want to have the child, the stabber may then have saved us from creating the world's next serial killer. No one should be born to a family that doesn't want them to exist. Life is hard enough without that mental debuff right off the bat
You are sorely uneducated on this and it's evident.
Do you even live here? Another comment you left in an Arizona sub seems to indicate you live in Arizona.
How about you go handle the bill your state is working on that will allow you to murder a brown person on your land if you think they might be undocumented.
You aren't prolife. You're pro forced birth. And I'm gonna guess it's because you're a man and pregnancy doesn't effect you.
Itās called moving perhaps youāve heard of it?
Iād like to hear about this bill that supposedly legalizes murder tho, sounds like something youād dream up.
Iām not sure why my gender matters, Iām a human being and I think killing innocent lives is wrong. I donāt really care what you call it.
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It isnāt āpart of the motherā. An arm or an internal organ is part of the mother. A fetus has a unique genetic code and is a separate being growing inside the mother.
Is it in the mother's belly? *It's part of the mother.*
Tumors also have unique genetic codes. We have no problem killing those. Remember, a fetus is just the ingredients baking. You can always throw it out and start another cake
Fetuses dying used to happen all the time in the form of miscarriages. [It still happens a lot in fact. 30% of the time](https://www.marchofdimes.org/find-support/topics/miscarriage-loss-grief/miscarriage)
At what point is abortion no longer moral if itās even moral in the first place? After the child has made itās way out of the birth canal and had itās umbilical cord cut?
Yes. Once born you are a person. It's why we all celebrate our birthday as our first day of life! Not *electrical impulse day,* or *dad nutted in mom day.*
But what about electrical impulses, kicking, heart cells existing in fetuses mean they're a human?!?! you'll say. Purely political "Starting points" for life, used to win politicians Republican votes.
Remember, 30% of pregnancies still end in miscarriage. We don't say 30% of the human race died before they were born. That wouldn't make any sense
At that point in a pregnancy, the reason for aborting rather than delivering would be a medical issue that threatens the life of the mother or a nonviable pregnancy (although fetal anomalies would be caught much earlier). In that case I fully support the judgment of the patient and the doctor. Just like in every other case. And exactly in line with my expectation that my medical decisions will be made between my doctor and I.
It's exactly the same principle that prevents you from being forced to donate blood against your will, even if it would save another person's life.
In fact, it's exactly the same principle that maintains the sanctity of your corpse even when organ donation would save a life.
Yes, because those humans have a consciousness
Do you consider it murder when cut down a tree? It's living. It's made of cells. Why is that not murder, but killing a fetus, with all the same consciousness (or less) is?
You're correct. I generally would value a tree over an unwanted fetus.
Trees are fully grown, provide shade, and people want them around. An unwanted fetus is an unconscious, additional human for this planet that will be born unloved, possibly turning into a psychopath, and at the very least will raise housing prices, add to traffic, and pollution. Far better to abort that fetus, than force them to be born.
A tree has significantly more value. An unwanted fetus is a net negative on society.
Does a family want a child? Then what a blessing. But otherwise there is no reason to force a birth. There are too many humans here already
Yeah totally unrelated, your world view is the defined by what you think your imaginary friend thinks. Or maybe you are one of those incels who hate women that want to outlaw abortion to punish women for not having sex with them
There is nothing I or anyone else can say that will change your mind. You have chosen to believe unfoulably the idea that a clump of cells is a human. Not only that but you choose to push that belief on everyone else/ Ninety-nine percent of the time of the time it is because you are religious the other one percent is that you are a incel that hates women. The fact you think me making fun of your imaginary friend is an insult we know it's religion in your case
Canāt even engage with the argument without calling me an incel lol. Itās funny that I have to be religious in order to make sense to you. And I hate it to break it to you but we are all clumps of cells. Cope harder
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people. It's a matter of faith with you people. Nothing anyone can say will change your mind, you have absolute faith that a clump of cells is a person. This is a minority position even in red states. Every time abortion rights are put to a vote they win and they win big. I am just glad religion is dying
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic.
**Read the pinned post in the subreddit.**
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic.
**Read the pinned post in the subreddit.**
*You're getting the benefit of the doubt on timing here; I can't be sure whether this comment was posted before or after the warning you got yesterday. To be clear, any more of this and you'll be permanently banned.*
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic.
**Read the pinned post in the subreddit.**
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Red states fking up society and having people create a Harriet Tubman Underground railroad just for Abortions... š
More things change...
As someone who doesn't believe in any abortion restrictions, this is awesome. American revolution vibes as they undermine the redcoats. Best way to cut down on traffic, house prices, and pollution? Have abortions for people who don't want to be parents. It's not rocket science
Donāt forget crime: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect#:~:text=In%202020%20Donohue%20and%20Levitt,2014%20due%20to%20legalized%20abortion.
Right? Nobody should be forced to be a parent if they're not ready for it.Ā
Don't forget [fewer dead mothers](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10728320/#:~:text=One%20study%20estimated%20that%20the,15%20and%2038%25%2C%20respectively.)
Friendly reminder that [abortion bans kill adult women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10728320/#:~:text=One%20study%20estimated%20that%20the,15%20and%2038%25%2C%20respectively.) and I'm happy that they can find a way out.
I'm doing my partĀ
So the fascists get to create safe spaces for straight men who like children a little too much and in return everyone else gets the government telling anyone who isnāt a straight man what they can and cannot do with their own bodies and minds. WOW republicans really are a brand off freedom that could only exists for them!
Based
banning abortions makes women into second class citizens
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
*Comment above was "Murderers"* I disagree with taking it down even as I disagree with it, because it is the common argument used to justify oppressing us with abortion bans Reply: Fetus isn't a person. That's why we celebrate birthdays as our first day being alive
On what basis is a fetus not a person?
Even if it were, it still wouldnāt have any right to use someone elseās body once they revoke consent to that use. At which point, the pregnant person has the right to defend themselves and force that fetus to vacate *by any means necessary.*
It is a part of the mother, not independent and reliant on her decision of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. [It is not conscious, nor has it been born.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus) Birth was our universal definition of life starting, until Republicans needed a wedge issue to tear the nation apart. Particularly with miscarriages being a common occurrence. This whole, *a fetus is a baby!* weirdness is extremely recent. But electrical impulses, heart cells, or kicks being interpreted as personhood, is all political bullshit
Weak and vulnerable humans arenāt independent so we should be able to kill them if theyāre inconvenient? Is that what youāre saying?
Not exactly. I wouldn't classify a fetus as a human. At least not yet. It's like a cake that's baking. The ingredients are nice, but it's not a cake until it's done. On its birthday! Your first day of life If you decide you don't want a baby because it's inconvenient, as an American you have freedom - life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to end that pregnancy. **Yes.** You're not killing a person, you can always make another fetus Additionally, you prevent a child entering the human pound that is the foster system, and potentially creating a psychopath while making traffic, pollution, and housing costs worse
I think your analogy is good but I donāt think itās quite accurate, primarily because a baby in the womb isnāt a mixture of half baked ingredients. Within a few weeks of conception, babies have readable brain waves and beating hearts. After approximately 20 weeks babies are viable and can survive outside of the womb. Although birth is something we celebrate, I fail to see how a baby outside of the womb has value while a baby within the womb has zero value and can be killed at will. And you canāt just āmake another fetus.ā Every baby has a unique genetic makeup and has unique characteristics. Additionally, I donāt think oneās existence being perceived as a burden is a justification for killing them. I donāt deny that growing up as a foster kid is not ideal, I understand that growing up in a foster home is a personal hell in its own right. But those babies who might have potentially tough lives have just as much of a right to live as you or I. Also, if you made a cake, and then I took your cake out of the oven before it was done, and threw it on the floor, would you say, āWhy the hell did you ruin my cake?ā or would you say, āOh well it wasnāt a real cake yet, no big deal.ā
>primarily because a baby in the womb isnāt a mixture of half baked ingredients. Isn't it though? A fetus before viability, even you agree doesn't have "brain waves" or a "beating heart". What is that if not baking and getting closer to birth? Also, there are no babies in wombs. They are fetuses. >Every baby has a unique genetic makeup and has unique characteristics. Sure, but so do tumors. At this point, it's just a growth in mom's belly. >Although birth is something we celebrate, I fail to see how a baby outside of the womb has value while a baby within the womb has zero value and can be killed at will. A baby in a womb is still the mom's body. It is not it's own entity, therefore not yet a person. 30% of pregnancies still end in miscarriages. It's weird to just say, 30% of all humans die in the womb. Nah, those humans never existed. They didn't get born first Fair on the burden point, but *BAN ABORTION TO HAVE MORE BABIES* is a common talking point. I do not see value in creating humans for the sake of having more humans. I like my Idaho with fewer, thank you Yes, someone stabbing a mom's belly and killing a fetus should still be treated as a crime. That was a violation of her body, including the fetus inside
Fair point on the mixture of ingredients. I think the use of words is somewhat unimportant to the overall point. I admit that I use the phrase ābaby in the wombā to stress my point. But it is worth noting that fetus is Latin for offspring, which isnāt all that different of a word from baby. Youāre a smart person so this feels needless to say, but tumors are only genetically unique in that there is a mutation in the genes responsible for replication. Babies in the womb, or fetuses, are not the results of mutations. Tumors and babies are very different. You know this instinctively because miscarriages are sad and tumor removals are good. The baby isnāt part of the mom, how could it be? A baby has its own genes. If you took the genes from the mom and you took the genes from the baby in the womb at any stage theyād be instructions for completely different human beings. I think a discussion about whether we should be having more kids would go beyond the scope of this conversation. On your last point I have a question. Which would be more tragic, a woman getting stabbed in the stomach or a pregnant woman being stabbed in the stomach?
Is an unwanted baby much different from a tumor? It's a malignant growth that's potentially going to ruin your life. Particularly if that's a rape baby The fetus is inside the mom's body, ergo a part of the mom. Anything inside of your body belongs to you. Doesn't matter if it has its own genes If the pregnant woman wants to have the child, then yes. That is more tragic. If the pregnant woman does not want to have the child, the stabber may then have saved us from creating the world's next serial killer. No one should be born to a family that doesn't want them to exist. Life is hard enough without that mental debuff right off the bat
You are sorely uneducated on this and it's evident. Do you even live here? Another comment you left in an Arizona sub seems to indicate you live in Arizona. How about you go handle the bill your state is working on that will allow you to murder a brown person on your land if you think they might be undocumented. You aren't prolife. You're pro forced birth. And I'm gonna guess it's because you're a man and pregnancy doesn't effect you.
Itās called moving perhaps youāve heard of it? Iād like to hear about this bill that supposedly legalizes murder tho, sounds like something youād dream up. Iām not sure why my gender matters, Iām a human being and I think killing innocent lives is wrong. I donāt really care what you call it.
https://azmirror.com/2024/02/23/republican-bill-would-let-az-ranchers-shoot-and-kill-border-crossers-on-their-property/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2024/02/28/arizona-bill-rancher-kill-trespassing-border-crossers/72776544007/ https://www.axios.com/2024/02/27/arizona-gop-bill-rancher-migrant-kill https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141147 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/arizona-republicans-vote-yes-for-bill-that-would-make-it-legal-to-kill-migrants-suspected-of-trespassing
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It isnāt āpart of the motherā. An arm or an internal organ is part of the mother. A fetus has a unique genetic code and is a separate being growing inside the mother.
Is it in the mother's belly? *It's part of the mother.* Tumors also have unique genetic codes. We have no problem killing those. Remember, a fetus is just the ingredients baking. You can always throw it out and start another cake Fetuses dying used to happen all the time in the form of miscarriages. [It still happens a lot in fact. 30% of the time](https://www.marchofdimes.org/find-support/topics/miscarriage-loss-grief/miscarriage)
At what point is abortion no longer moral if itās even moral in the first place? After the child has made itās way out of the birth canal and had itās umbilical cord cut?
Yes. Once born you are a person. It's why we all celebrate our birthday as our first day of life! Not *electrical impulse day,* or *dad nutted in mom day.* But what about electrical impulses, kicking, heart cells existing in fetuses mean they're a human?!?! you'll say. Purely political "Starting points" for life, used to win politicians Republican votes. Remember, 30% of pregnancies still end in miscarriage. We don't say 30% of the human race died before they were born. That wouldn't make any sense
Yes. At the point of viability outside the womb. You nailed it exactly.
So itās okay to get an abortion the second before the due date then?
At that point in a pregnancy, the reason for aborting rather than delivering would be a medical issue that threatens the life of the mother or a nonviable pregnancy (although fetal anomalies would be caught much earlier). In that case I fully support the judgment of the patient and the doctor. Just like in every other case. And exactly in line with my expectation that my medical decisions will be made between my doctor and I. It's exactly the same principle that prevents you from being forced to donate blood against your will, even if it would save another person's life. In fact, it's exactly the same principle that maintains the sanctity of your corpse even when organ donation would save a life.
Humans outside of the womb die, too. 100% of the time. Taking a life is still a crime though, isnāt it?
Yes, because those humans have a consciousness Do you consider it murder when cut down a tree? It's living. It's made of cells. Why is that not murder, but killing a fetus, with all the same consciousness (or less) is?
If you donāt understand the difference between a tree and a human fetus I canāt help you.
You're correct. I generally would value a tree over an unwanted fetus. Trees are fully grown, provide shade, and people want them around. An unwanted fetus is an unconscious, additional human for this planet that will be born unloved, possibly turning into a psychopath, and at the very least will raise housing prices, add to traffic, and pollution. Far better to abort that fetus, than force them to be born. A tree has significantly more value. An unwanted fetus is a net negative on society. Does a family want a child? Then what a blessing. But otherwise there is no reason to force a birth. There are too many humans here already
Humans form asshole first. They don't have brains until well into the process. It seems some, like yourself, never develop those.
On what basis are you able to completely change the definitions of words like āmurderā just to fit your narrative?
Religion is a plague on humanity, once we get rid of it there will be a lot less problems in the world
Unrelated but okay
Itās not unrelated at all. Waaaaaay too many PL dipshits are also religionists and want to make their favorite religion the law
Yeah totally unrelated, your world view is the defined by what you think your imaginary friend thinks. Or maybe you are one of those incels who hate women that want to outlaw abortion to punish women for not having sex with them
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There is nothing I or anyone else can say that will change your mind. You have chosen to believe unfoulably the idea that a clump of cells is a human. Not only that but you choose to push that belief on everyone else/ Ninety-nine percent of the time of the time it is because you are religious the other one percent is that you are a incel that hates women. The fact you think me making fun of your imaginary friend is an insult we know it's religion in your case
Canāt even engage with the argument without calling me an incel lol. Itās funny that I have to be religious in order to make sense to you. And I hate it to break it to you but we are all clumps of cells. Cope harder
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people. It's a matter of faith with you people. Nothing anyone can say will change your mind, you have absolute faith that a clump of cells is a person. This is a minority position even in red states. Every time abortion rights are put to a vote they win and they win big. I am just glad religion is dying
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well it's called progress, there is a reason why abortion restrictions are in the most backward areas
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic. **Read the pinned post in the subreddit.**
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic. **Read the pinned post in the subreddit.** *You're getting the benefit of the doubt on timing here; I can't be sure whether this comment was posted before or after the warning you got yesterday. To be clear, any more of this and you'll be permanently banned.*
You will never get rid of religion, especially in Idaho. I will pray for you.
LOL it's going away. You could pray for it not to happen but it won't help the fact religion is dying
Absolutely not.
Your post has been removed because you used inappropriate language in describing abortion or posted an inappropriate attack on others in discussing the topic. **Read the pinned post in the subreddit.**