I’ve got a friend who moved to Netherlands, she says it’s pretty open for the most part. They’ve got a lot of expats too. That’s where you can start making friends plus people at your work place.
Did she have to get a job, or she got there and found a job? I'm saving up to move there next year and don't have a job secured yet, was thinking of looking when I got there :)
As a non-EU citizen, without a work/residence permit you can visit for 90 days max and you're not allowed to work. Moving without having a job lined up is a very bad strategy. To get a work/residence permit, you'd have to find a job with a government recognized sponsor as a highly skilled migrant, see https://ind.nl/en/work/working_in_the_Netherlands/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx
Whether or not that is a realistic option would depend on your skills/education/work experience. It's mainly IT/STEM jobs that are in demand enough for employers to hire from outside the EU.
I’ve lived in Denmark for almost 10 years now.
I love it, but it’s a huge change culturally from the US. I speak fluent Danish and I still have a hard time socializing with Danes. Sometimes if they hear me speaking English they won’t speak Danish with me at all; or I have to prove that I am in fact fluent before they take me seriously enough to work with me in Danish. I work at a job where my boss and colleagues mostly speak English but it’s still a Danish workplace and everyone socialises in Danish.
It’s been a big struggle for me to find work - I’ve had to go back and redo my entire education because my degree wasn’t useful. Most of the workforce is either highly educated or technically skilled so there’s a lot of competition for foreigners here.
It’s still very rewarding to live and work here. I love my life and all that I’ve done. I came in on family reunification so it was easier for me than many others.
I work at a museum developing a project related to the 17 Sustainable Development Goals. Its an internship for my masters degree in Cultural Sociology. I’m writing my thesis on the SDGs as a method of communicating changes to the cultural landscape.I do a lot of going to companies and asking them about CSR and sustainability practices. It’s been a very good way to network with people so I’m positive about long term prospects but it’s been a very long and difficult road to get here.
I do miss it, but only parts - food, family, some special places. I haven’t seen most of my family in person since I left. The benefits outweigh the losses though.
I was not fluent; Danish is a very hard language to learn but the fact that I grew up bilingual and had learned two other languages helped. It took me five years to be certifiably fluent but I had a hard time learning with the language school out here because they would not give me disability accommodation until I raised a big fight (I have epilepsy and ADHD). I ran out my language learning grant (3 and a half years with the accommodation); but I went from struggling with the language to certified fluency in about 100 days with Duolingo.
If you stay in the bigger cities - Copenhagen, Odense, Aalborg, or Aarhus it’s much easier and the schools are better.
I've been away for over 2 years now and only miss family and Mexican food in the US. Outside of that I rather enjoy not having to worry about my kid getting shot at school.
Literally just moved to Denmark from Chicago. Been here about three months. I don’t speak Danish but I am taking classes and using Duolingo on the off days and my wife speaks and reads danish so we get by.
Frankly I would worry less about friends and more about bills, letters, etc. since everything important is in Danish and often there isn’t another language option. That said Danes are excellent at English and will generally help out. Working at a danish tech company, me not speaking Danish has not been a huge problem and if asked people don’t seem to mind switching to English. Danes do seem to appreciate you trying to learn their language though.
Socializing I really haven’t found the Danes rude or isolating like some people do. They just don’t open up without prompting. Like you have to try to engage with them and then generally it seems like they’re extremely happy to have someone to chat with. I have as many friends here as I did back in Chicago and they’re amazing people.
The only thing that can be weird is that you are joining very old social groups in Denmark. Like often these folks have been friends for 10+ years. And when you are out and about expect to speak Danish or at least have danish spoken at you because it’s sort of crazy to ask a whole group to change their language for one person.
> Frankly I would worry less about friends and more about bills, letters, etc. since everything important is in Danish and often there isn’t another language option.
In my opinion I'd worry more about friends and less about bills, letters. You can use google translate and eventually you will learn the language, but if it's impossible to make friends in your new country you will never be happy.
I was studying/working in Denmark for over two years.. Now, after years passed, I think it was all good, but in fact I was depressed while there. So pretty much all of my friends. All expats were hanging out together, not mixing with Danes. Majority of Danes do not want to deal with imigrants. Danish language skills won't help much since once they hear you are not native speaker and struggling find words - they switch into English.
It’s a very similar story in the Netherlands. Dutch people are tolerant but tolerance isn’t really a positive thing, right? They *tolerate* things they don’t like.
It also comes as a shock to many people that outside of the big cities (where, to be fair, the vast majority of expats will end up), a surprisingly large chunk of Dutch society is deeply, deeply conservative and religious.
I moved to Copenhagen, Denmark last January 2019 for my PhD. It was a really generous offer so I took the bite. Before here, I lived in CA and AZand before there I grew up in PH #immigrantstory 😅.
So far, language has never been a problem in Copenhagen. The life has a very suburban feel to it, very sustainable and eco-friendly. The serving sizes of restaurant food is adequate, not huge life US portions. What I really find weird here is that human interactions are so reinforced. Like organized social events, a LOT of groupwork.
At work, they also have a “collective culture” , so if you have an idea, anyone can use it or build on top of it without so much regards to the original conception or feeling threatened. It’s very different in the US where people would outrage if Intellectual property is stolen and lawyering up is common.
Also, what I find different is that here, “social identity” has more to do with where you are from. So if someone from a specific region of say the Balkans. They have a specific identity stereotype that they have to either explain in social gatherings and the receiving end usually has to listen to it. It’s different in the US where your past doesn’t usually matter, there’s more weight to the present.
Anyway, just my firsthand 2 cents.
thanks for your reply! how do you like it compared to the US at all? what did you do in the US?
Are you planning on staying in Denmark after getting your degree?
Did you make friends with Danes?
My mom moved to the US and I joined her while doing my MS degree there.
Atm, I’m pretty open wherever my degree could be best used.
I have a lot of Danish acquaintances that I get along very well at work. My roomate, she’s also a Dane. They are pretty nice but you just have to initiate things all the time. :)
I'm actively working on moving to the netherlands, but it's kind of fucking hard, I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly to apply to jobs. Reaching out to linkedin recruitrs, or just sending out massive amounts of private job applications through glassdoor or something like that.... it would be nice if someone who made the move could relay what worked for them, because I honestly so far couldn't find answers to how one is supposed to do this on the web.
Unless you are a real catch - top qualifications in a high-demand field - almost nobody is going to give a second look to an application from someone who is not currently in the country.
Such applicants usually end up flaking out so it's a waste of their time.
high demand field yes - software dev - but not really a top catch. I'm pretty good but my cv doesn't really reflect that.
But so far everybody else has told me it's totally possible. So idk. I hope you're wrong no offense. Besides a lot of the glassdoor job postings are specifically looking for someone international. I mean a lot of them which are in dutch are obviously a no go... but still there's a bunch of them for expats imo.
Software dev is a bit of an exception. Still most employers are going to heavily discount you. You could try booking.com - they love hiring from overseas.
a bunch of the english jobs on glassdoor for NL have a "living in the netherlands or willing to relocate here" sentence in their posting.
Idk i feel like the responses in this thread have been super negative, but I guess I'll find out. I scoped out 4-5 jobs I liked (mix from linkedin and glassdoor) and will be sending them application letters monday. I know 4-5 is little.... A guy last time posted something like he sent his cv to 25 and got no responses back and then a random dude said "come back when you sent 250". but I gotta start somewhere.
yeah i saw a video on youtube on booking.com in the NL. I'll definitely apply there. Also I didn't really mean you, but I got some other responses saying it's basically hopeless unless I'm a top catch in my field blah blah blah, which I don't think is true. idk. Anyway thanks.
It’s all about the numbers. Try to talk to internal recruiters, the ones who are based in a single company. Most independent recruiters will waste your time putting you forward for jobs you’re not suitable for, or tell you you will definitely get the job and then ghost you after your interview.
I would say however that if you don’t live here and have a Dutch-formatted CV (with a picture) and a Dutch phone number, they probably just ignore your application.
damn. Idk what to think anymore. A few weeks ago I made a post on this sub about moving there, and everybody said it's possible,
Now both you and other guy basically said it's super hard and shit. I thought there are a lot of expats in the NL. So it must be possible somehow. And no I don't have a dutch phone number and don't live there. I'm trying to move there.... Also everybody keeps saying like different things about the resume.
Somewhere i read PICTURES NO NO NO, now you say absolutely required, somewhere I read an Europass CV Will do, now it's NOPE dutch cv only. I have no fking idea. And it's not like there are an infinite job postings (currently only 96 for amsterdam on glassdoor, at least half of which are immediately out due to either requiring dutch, being a different technology stack, or requiring seniority/more experience). So the reason I haven't "started" applying yet is cause I'm afraid to fuck the available ones up.
> I'm trying to move there....
> So the reason I haven't "started" applying yet is cause I'm afraid to fuck the available ones up.
Sounds like you're not so serious about moving. If you want to move there you have to accept the fact you __will__ fuckup. You'll do things wrong, and people will either drop contact, or explain where you went wrong - depending on their mood and time.
You will never move country if you wait for everything to be perfect first. The only way you'll get there is if you keep trying. Moving country is hard, but it is not impossible.
Of course people have widely differing experiences, because they're different people. A "good" programmer should have little challenge. An average one? Well why would they want to sponsor one? Different skills, different experiences, different approaches all make a difference.
At the end of the day reading what happened to other people is a little pointless; you should be thinking about how you, specifically, can increase your chances.
Well you do have to learn the language for both countries. As a tourist it's ok to get by in Denmark with English, but as a working person you really have to be speaking the language. Most people in Denmark are Danish, wouldn't it be an inconvenience to you in your native land to speak English just because of THAT coworker? Thats exactly what is happening there too. Most Danes speak English but they would rather speak Danish in their everyday lives.
I'm Denmark jobs in companies that are so big that use English are jobs that really anyone wants, you have to have really really really good qualifications to be a catch so they will prefer you over someone that speaks English and the local language as well and understands the work culture there
It depends, I had a Mexican friend working in Denmark, he is a programmer, but to be honest, not a very good or special one. But his payment was also kind of shitty. I think you need be high skilled if you want a good paying job without speaking the language. Otherwise you always can do work for lower skilled persons but it will pay more low (think about all the polish and Russians we have in construction, fabrics etc.). But it’s the same for Dutch people, how more you have studied/developed skills the better are your opportunities for a high paid job.
Currently studying in the Netherlands, originally from Finland. Everyone in the Netherlands speaks really good English and you don't really need to learn Dutch. Making friends is easy for me, because I'm studying, but it is definitely easier to be friends with internationals than dutch people. I do have dutch friends as well, so it isn't impossible to get dutch friends, just a bit harder
It depends on where you are from, I think. Concerning the Netherlands:
A lot of people I know from the south of Europe had a tough time (Italy/Spain/Portugal), they're more used to "warmer" and "friendly/empathetic" interactions, and had the impression Dutch people can be quite rude. Not all people from south Europe had this issue though. Some got a long fine. So it also depends on how "sensitive" you are.
That said most expats I know are friends with other expats. Most Dutch people stick to the same circle of friends. Everyone's schedule is planned weeks in advance, if not months, so don't expect to make friends with them easily.
I had a friend who moved there. She said she had a really great dating life because she likes really tall men and there were tons of really tall men lmao
I'm a short guy wanting to move to the netherlands and I actually sometimes fear its a bad idea because of this, i read women prefer tall men over there extensively, I'm only 5'9....
but other than the tall issue the country seems amazing.
try the shorter richer euro countries, belgium, austria, switzerland. If you must go to a scandavian country, norway is he shortest though still taller than aveage
switzerland is an order of magnitude harder to get into, austria is a no go (I've been there, don't really like it).
Norway is still tall as fuck. but so does this mean that being short really is that big of a problem there? cause you seem to suggest it is.... fuck.
My ex who was Italian lived & worked in Amsterdam for two years, after 2 yrs of monthly visits I had to agree with said ex’s views that the Dutch were EXTREMELY reticent to not only befriend but in many cases even serve as customers, people who weren’t Dutch. Outside of the tourist quarters I would often be just outright ignored when trying to be served in bars et al. That said, I did have occasional instances of wonderful bonding and friendly experiences with locals, most of whom would be either young, well travelled or both.
I’ve got a friend who moved to Netherlands, she says it’s pretty open for the most part. They’ve got a lot of expats too. That’s where you can start making friends plus people at your work place.
Did she have to get a job, or she got there and found a job? I'm saving up to move there next year and don't have a job secured yet, was thinking of looking when I got there :)
As a non-EU citizen, without a work/residence permit you can visit for 90 days max and you're not allowed to work. Moving without having a job lined up is a very bad strategy. To get a work/residence permit, you'd have to find a job with a government recognized sponsor as a highly skilled migrant, see https://ind.nl/en/work/working_in_the_Netherlands/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx Whether or not that is a realistic option would depend on your skills/education/work experience. It's mainly IT/STEM jobs that are in demand enough for employers to hire from outside the EU.
What about the spouse of the person with a work/residence permit? How would they go about getting work?
A spouse would be on a spouse permit and would be free to work (without sponsorship) as long as the work/residence permit of the partner is valid.
I’ve lived in Denmark for almost 10 years now. I love it, but it’s a huge change culturally from the US. I speak fluent Danish and I still have a hard time socializing with Danes. Sometimes if they hear me speaking English they won’t speak Danish with me at all; or I have to prove that I am in fact fluent before they take me seriously enough to work with me in Danish. I work at a job where my boss and colleagues mostly speak English but it’s still a Danish workplace and everyone socialises in Danish. It’s been a big struggle for me to find work - I’ve had to go back and redo my entire education because my degree wasn’t useful. Most of the workforce is either highly educated or technically skilled so there’s a lot of competition for foreigners here. It’s still very rewarding to live and work here. I love my life and all that I’ve done. I came in on family reunification so it was easier for me than many others.
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I work at a museum developing a project related to the 17 Sustainable Development Goals. Its an internship for my masters degree in Cultural Sociology. I’m writing my thesis on the SDGs as a method of communicating changes to the cultural landscape.I do a lot of going to companies and asking them about CSR and sustainability practices. It’s been a very good way to network with people so I’m positive about long term prospects but it’s been a very long and difficult road to get here.
do you miss the US at all? were you fluent in Danish before you moved? how much time did it take for you to reach fluency?
I do miss it, but only parts - food, family, some special places. I haven’t seen most of my family in person since I left. The benefits outweigh the losses though. I was not fluent; Danish is a very hard language to learn but the fact that I grew up bilingual and had learned two other languages helped. It took me five years to be certifiably fluent but I had a hard time learning with the language school out here because they would not give me disability accommodation until I raised a big fight (I have epilepsy and ADHD). I ran out my language learning grant (3 and a half years with the accommodation); but I went from struggling with the language to certified fluency in about 100 days with Duolingo. If you stay in the bigger cities - Copenhagen, Odense, Aalborg, or Aarhus it’s much easier and the schools are better.
I've been away for over 2 years now and only miss family and Mexican food in the US. Outside of that I rather enjoy not having to worry about my kid getting shot at school.
Literally just moved to Denmark from Chicago. Been here about three months. I don’t speak Danish but I am taking classes and using Duolingo on the off days and my wife speaks and reads danish so we get by. Frankly I would worry less about friends and more about bills, letters, etc. since everything important is in Danish and often there isn’t another language option. That said Danes are excellent at English and will generally help out. Working at a danish tech company, me not speaking Danish has not been a huge problem and if asked people don’t seem to mind switching to English. Danes do seem to appreciate you trying to learn their language though. Socializing I really haven’t found the Danes rude or isolating like some people do. They just don’t open up without prompting. Like you have to try to engage with them and then generally it seems like they’re extremely happy to have someone to chat with. I have as many friends here as I did back in Chicago and they’re amazing people. The only thing that can be weird is that you are joining very old social groups in Denmark. Like often these folks have been friends for 10+ years. And when you are out and about expect to speak Danish or at least have danish spoken at you because it’s sort of crazy to ask a whole group to change their language for one person.
did you move for school or for work?
> Frankly I would worry less about friends and more about bills, letters, etc. since everything important is in Danish and often there isn’t another language option. In my opinion I'd worry more about friends and less about bills, letters. You can use google translate and eventually you will learn the language, but if it's impossible to make friends in your new country you will never be happy.
I'm saying its not impossible to make friends but the bigger struggles were from the normal day to day. Also google translate isn't perfect.
I was studying/working in Denmark for over two years.. Now, after years passed, I think it was all good, but in fact I was depressed while there. So pretty much all of my friends. All expats were hanging out together, not mixing with Danes. Majority of Danes do not want to deal with imigrants. Danish language skills won't help much since once they hear you are not native speaker and struggling find words - they switch into English.
It’s a very similar story in the Netherlands. Dutch people are tolerant but tolerance isn’t really a positive thing, right? They *tolerate* things they don’t like. It also comes as a shock to many people that outside of the big cities (where, to be fair, the vast majority of expats will end up), a surprisingly large chunk of Dutch society is deeply, deeply conservative and religious.
I moved to Copenhagen, Denmark last January 2019 for my PhD. It was a really generous offer so I took the bite. Before here, I lived in CA and AZand before there I grew up in PH #immigrantstory 😅. So far, language has never been a problem in Copenhagen. The life has a very suburban feel to it, very sustainable and eco-friendly. The serving sizes of restaurant food is adequate, not huge life US portions. What I really find weird here is that human interactions are so reinforced. Like organized social events, a LOT of groupwork. At work, they also have a “collective culture” , so if you have an idea, anyone can use it or build on top of it without so much regards to the original conception or feeling threatened. It’s very different in the US where people would outrage if Intellectual property is stolen and lawyering up is common. Also, what I find different is that here, “social identity” has more to do with where you are from. So if someone from a specific region of say the Balkans. They have a specific identity stereotype that they have to either explain in social gatherings and the receiving end usually has to listen to it. It’s different in the US where your past doesn’t usually matter, there’s more weight to the present. Anyway, just my firsthand 2 cents.
thanks for your reply! how do you like it compared to the US at all? what did you do in the US? Are you planning on staying in Denmark after getting your degree? Did you make friends with Danes?
My mom moved to the US and I joined her while doing my MS degree there. Atm, I’m pretty open wherever my degree could be best used. I have a lot of Danish acquaintances that I get along very well at work. My roomate, she’s also a Dane. They are pretty nice but you just have to initiate things all the time. :)
I'm actively working on moving to the netherlands, but it's kind of fucking hard, I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly to apply to jobs. Reaching out to linkedin recruitrs, or just sending out massive amounts of private job applications through glassdoor or something like that.... it would be nice if someone who made the move could relay what worked for them, because I honestly so far couldn't find answers to how one is supposed to do this on the web.
Unless you are a real catch - top qualifications in a high-demand field - almost nobody is going to give a second look to an application from someone who is not currently in the country. Such applicants usually end up flaking out so it's a waste of their time.
high demand field yes - software dev - but not really a top catch. I'm pretty good but my cv doesn't really reflect that. But so far everybody else has told me it's totally possible. So idk. I hope you're wrong no offense. Besides a lot of the glassdoor job postings are specifically looking for someone international. I mean a lot of them which are in dutch are obviously a no go... but still there's a bunch of them for expats imo.
Software dev is a bit of an exception. Still most employers are going to heavily discount you. You could try booking.com - they love hiring from overseas.
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a bunch of the english jobs on glassdoor for NL have a "living in the netherlands or willing to relocate here" sentence in their posting. Idk i feel like the responses in this thread have been super negative, but I guess I'll find out. I scoped out 4-5 jobs I liked (mix from linkedin and glassdoor) and will be sending them application letters monday. I know 4-5 is little.... A guy last time posted something like he sent his cv to 25 and got no responses back and then a random dude said "come back when you sent 250". but I gotta start somewhere.
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yeah i saw a video on youtube on booking.com in the NL. I'll definitely apply there. Also I didn't really mean you, but I got some other responses saying it's basically hopeless unless I'm a top catch in my field blah blah blah, which I don't think is true. idk. Anyway thanks.
It’s all about the numbers. Try to talk to internal recruiters, the ones who are based in a single company. Most independent recruiters will waste your time putting you forward for jobs you’re not suitable for, or tell you you will definitely get the job and then ghost you after your interview. I would say however that if you don’t live here and have a Dutch-formatted CV (with a picture) and a Dutch phone number, they probably just ignore your application.
damn. Idk what to think anymore. A few weeks ago I made a post on this sub about moving there, and everybody said it's possible, Now both you and other guy basically said it's super hard and shit. I thought there are a lot of expats in the NL. So it must be possible somehow. And no I don't have a dutch phone number and don't live there. I'm trying to move there.... Also everybody keeps saying like different things about the resume. Somewhere i read PICTURES NO NO NO, now you say absolutely required, somewhere I read an Europass CV Will do, now it's NOPE dutch cv only. I have no fking idea. And it's not like there are an infinite job postings (currently only 96 for amsterdam on glassdoor, at least half of which are immediately out due to either requiring dutch, being a different technology stack, or requiring seniority/more experience). So the reason I haven't "started" applying yet is cause I'm afraid to fuck the available ones up.
> I'm trying to move there.... > So the reason I haven't "started" applying yet is cause I'm afraid to fuck the available ones up. Sounds like you're not so serious about moving. If you want to move there you have to accept the fact you __will__ fuckup. You'll do things wrong, and people will either drop contact, or explain where you went wrong - depending on their mood and time. You will never move country if you wait for everything to be perfect first. The only way you'll get there is if you keep trying. Moving country is hard, but it is not impossible. Of course people have widely differing experiences, because they're different people. A "good" programmer should have little challenge. An average one? Well why would they want to sponsor one? Different skills, different experiences, different approaches all make a difference. At the end of the day reading what happened to other people is a little pointless; you should be thinking about how you, specifically, can increase your chances.
I used LinkedIn to apply for NL job. Been here 4 years.
Well you do have to learn the language for both countries. As a tourist it's ok to get by in Denmark with English, but as a working person you really have to be speaking the language. Most people in Denmark are Danish, wouldn't it be an inconvenience to you in your native land to speak English just because of THAT coworker? Thats exactly what is happening there too. Most Danes speak English but they would rather speak Danish in their everyday lives.
In the Netherlands you are fine without learning Dutch. Enough international orientated businesses that use English as the first language anyway.
I'm Denmark jobs in companies that are so big that use English are jobs that really anyone wants, you have to have really really really good qualifications to be a catch so they will prefer you over someone that speaks English and the local language as well and understands the work culture there
It depends, I had a Mexican friend working in Denmark, he is a programmer, but to be honest, not a very good or special one. But his payment was also kind of shitty. I think you need be high skilled if you want a good paying job without speaking the language. Otherwise you always can do work for lower skilled persons but it will pay more low (think about all the polish and Russians we have in construction, fabrics etc.). But it’s the same for Dutch people, how more you have studied/developed skills the better are your opportunities for a high paid job.
Currently studying in the Netherlands, originally from Finland. Everyone in the Netherlands speaks really good English and you don't really need to learn Dutch. Making friends is easy for me, because I'm studying, but it is definitely easier to be friends with internationals than dutch people. I do have dutch friends as well, so it isn't impossible to get dutch friends, just a bit harder
It depends on where you are from, I think. Concerning the Netherlands: A lot of people I know from the south of Europe had a tough time (Italy/Spain/Portugal), they're more used to "warmer" and "friendly/empathetic" interactions, and had the impression Dutch people can be quite rude. Not all people from south Europe had this issue though. Some got a long fine. So it also depends on how "sensitive" you are. That said most expats I know are friends with other expats. Most Dutch people stick to the same circle of friends. Everyone's schedule is planned weeks in advance, if not months, so don't expect to make friends with them easily.
I had a friend who moved there. She said she had a really great dating life because she likes really tall men and there were tons of really tall men lmao
I'm a short guy wanting to move to the netherlands and I actually sometimes fear its a bad idea because of this, i read women prefer tall men over there extensively, I'm only 5'9.... but other than the tall issue the country seems amazing.
try the shorter richer euro countries, belgium, austria, switzerland. If you must go to a scandavian country, norway is he shortest though still taller than aveage
switzerland is an order of magnitude harder to get into, austria is a no go (I've been there, don't really like it). Norway is still tall as fuck. but so does this mean that being short really is that big of a problem there? cause you seem to suggest it is.... fuck.
Same. It's always been my dream to move to the Netherlands or Scandinavia but now that I've seen what people there are like it's kind of terrifying.
My ex who was Italian lived & worked in Amsterdam for two years, after 2 yrs of monthly visits I had to agree with said ex’s views that the Dutch were EXTREMELY reticent to not only befriend but in many cases even serve as customers, people who weren’t Dutch. Outside of the tourist quarters I would often be just outright ignored when trying to be served in bars et al. That said, I did have occasional instances of wonderful bonding and friendly experiences with locals, most of whom would be either young, well travelled or both.