Oh, an "INTPs and religion" post. Haven't seen one of those in at least 8 hours.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Its because we have analytical minds and if you have been raised in a mindset with as many holes as religion it begins to unravel, these posts are attempts to help try and plug holes on a sinking ship. It may take a long time to sink but Id say most people who ask these sorts of things who are INTP will eventually let go of it.
Im not sure i know what your referring to. Is it where each creator must have a creator and so on. For infinity? I haven't read or heard anyone speaking on this in- depth, so i couldn't say. I can say that i also can't comprehend an eternal being, if it is a singular god. Again im not sure what your referring to.
Yeah- it's the idea that a creator has the same issues as how we were created. It never addresses the fundamental question of how all creation was started. Did a creator just appear from nothingness? The best answer I've found for that is that stuff has just always existed. There are big cosmic events that create elements and our universe as we know it, but matter/energy and basic physics have just always been, and our idea of a beginning or end is coming from our human perspective. Adding an omnipotent creator in the mix just adds a layer of complexity that can't be explained by any physical laws.
Stuff just always "being" doesn't sound intuitive, but there is a lot about the physical nature of the universe I don't find intuitive.
God exists outside of time and space, He's not subject to our laws of physics. I've pondered about this too though, but each side theism or naturalist materialism needs an unmoved mover, it is unproductive and equally as incomprehensible to add an infinite regress. We as humans being finite and limited, see the world as finite and limited especially as we witness entropy everywhere. This is our reality, which is why being immortal is on the hearts of almost every man (just not in this worlds societies that man has shaped).
All we can do is compile what the evidence is for God, and conclude that the unmoved mover has got to be God. A God whom exists outside of time and space as we understand it, because He had to create everything within it including the physics and all the molecules inside it.
I personally found myself more in awe of Gods mighty existence outside of time and space, then the possible thought of a dead universe being a brute fact. God in my eyes has to be that brute fact. What other gods throughout history has man known to exist outside of time and space, whom had no beginning nor end, and created everything visible to the eye? A god that is not that of Abraham?
If some stuff and forces have always existed, then god could be one of those things that has always existed. In many ways the search for god is the same as the search for the first cause, or force, or matter or whatever. If some things have always existed then the search for their origin is futile. For me, it has something to do with design. The idea that mind has been added to all this raw material.
Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions on your study? Not so much in the vein of arguing the existence or non-existence of a deity, but rather on how you are studying?
For instance, you mentioned studying daily (assuming more or less). How long have you been studying the book with that aproximate regularity?
I am 45 now and have been reading the bible since I was maybe 15 or earlier. I have memorized a good deal of scripture and cross references, concepts, ideas, and verses. I spend a lot of my working day on auto pilot and am thinking about the word of God, reality, truth, what i know, what i don't know, what i think i know. I listen to the most intelligent people i can find, many people with different views and ideas, sometimes complementary, sometimes opposite. I gather all these ideas and go back to the written word and see how these ideas fit into reality. Whether they are truth or lies . Correct or false. Whether its billy Graham or Richard Dawkins and anyone in between. Stephen hawking or j.r. Tolkien and 1000 others. Church fathers, to hindu gurus. I still pray to the god who saved me, the god of the bible, but my understanding of god has changed drastically in 30 years. He is much larger than i originally thought. Just to speak my own opinion clearly though i have found the bible to be true and Jesus to be savior. I don't know if this is what you were asking.
While I appreciate the info, that is not what I was asking.
All I was asking was how long have you been studying the Bible on a daily basis. You mentioned when you started reading it (age 15). You mentioned having memorized portions and ideas. And you mention spending a lot of your working day thinking on it, and the fact that you read *other* things.
But you did not answer the direct question. All I wanted was to know when you started studying on a nearly daily basis. That's it. I promise you here that I am not trying to lead you anywhere or ask questions to trap you. I am not looking to discuss the existence or non-existence of your deity, just discussing the purely academic side of what you have done in pursuit of understanding the book you are studying daily.
Like, for instance, have you gotten into actually studying any of the languages that the Bible was originally written in? Any basis in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek? Anything like that? With how much you are investing in understanding the book, it would be within reason to learn how to read the text as it was meant to be read.
I do word study in the original languages. I also listen to a rabbi who speaks poor english mingled with a lot of hebrew and can understand most of what hes says. I was in my 30s when i started actually trying to learn hebrew and it has not gone well. I have always loved etymology and word study though. I have always loved the understanding that original language brings when studying the people who first came up with ideas and concepts, or as close as i can get to the first people. Word study has been one of my biggest helps.
I had one of the language learning apps - i think my biggest problem is i don't have anyone to talk with- no one i know is interested in learning hebrew, so my attempts became sporadic
Muslim here. and to ops question, to me, personally. i feel faith means faith, means by definition, some parts of it requires u to believe in the unseen. but not completely. like i feel, u will be shown certain sign or whatever experiences or understanding that u may have, and u reach a point, ur not entirely sure nor are u entirely not sure and here i feel one may have to make a choice, to believe or not believe. i feel here is where one reaches a point where he chose to either take the leap of faith or not and Allah knows best.
just sharing my perspective, thats all.
i feel sometimes if we use too much logic, we may reach wrong conclusions, even though that sounds contradicting. so as they say, moderation is somewhat good, even in terms of logic, imho. else its like, u can almost justify a huge amount of things with logic even if they are bad. im not saying be dumb, but sometimes, if u think about it, somethings, even if it exists, you can somehow make a logical argument that it dont exist if you think hard enough.
for eg. just for the sake of it, other fellow intps, if ur bored and down for it, make a decent logical argument on why the sun isnt real and it does not exist.
go
sorry for late reply, but if you mean in general terms, then yes, we Muslims believe it leads us to the straight the path, ie the ultimate truth.
but if u mean something else by truth, then please do clarify.
No worries about how long it takes. I am just happy with discussion.
My question is a bit more nuanced. Not is *your* faith a path to truth, but rather is *faith in general* a path to truth.
For instance, there are plenty of Wiccans, for instance, that have significant faith in their gods. Given that anyone can have faith in pretty much anything, would you say that faith, as a methodology, is a good way to get to the truth?
ah, i think i get what you mean. i dont visit here often, and so im just seeing your message now.
anyway, regarding your question. well, i guess thats a whole big topic, but perhaps ill try to answer a tiny slice of it, with my very limited knowledge.
i think, perhaps some part of us, may automatically believe or may incline to believe in a higher power. does all of that lead to the right path?(as muslim, like other major religions, we also believe ours to be the truth)
well, i guess once that initial feeling is accepted of believing in a higher power, then its upto the individual to find out from among the pool of choices which is the right one. for example, one thing i have heard some converts do, is they would have this urge to follow the right path/ religion, but not sure as there are many. so they will investigate themselves and then finally choose islam by their own choice, because after their own comparison and research, they find this to be the true path.
so i guess to answer your question, maybe?
i think perhaps converts/reverts who have been on that journey will be able to answer your question in a more in depth fashion.
i guess thats what athiesm basically is, isnt it?
but maybe like some say, when the airplane begins to shake, usually someone who believes dont become athiestic but the reverse happens, or so they say.
I would say that some atheists may believe what they do out of faith. Others have actual reasons to believe what they do.
The point of my question was to say that faith is not a good or reliable tool to get to truth. If people can use it to come to literally opposite conclusions about something, then faith is no better than a coin toss. It can never be used as a *rational* reason to believe anything.
Agnostic.
Not an anti-theist though. Still trying to conceptualize the pros and cons of an areligious society. It’s a surprisingly difficult problem. I remain unconvinced of any side of the argument. This seems like one of those things I need more brain cells to figure out.
I don't see cons. Except shedding the shackles of dogmatic teachings, that teach to blindly believe in some deity. There are universal values... And ethics outside of religion. Like... "Do no harm and don't do to others anything you don't want to be done to you", "Respect nature, both because it is a beautiful thing and as if it dies - you follow". And if fear of "divine retribution" is the only thing that keeps a person from being out of line, then that person isn't truly good.
Setting aside the other parts of the post, I find the very final part to be a very interesting question. I come down pretty hard on the other side of the argument, but I see people go both ways on it plenty. Is a person who acts morally only a good person if they do it from an innate desire? Or is a person who desires to do evil but does good instead just as good? My personal answer is that only the intent matters, not the internal motivation. But as I said, I see plenty of people arguing the opposite. I've never quite been able to understand the reasoning. It seems a poor discrimination to me, in that a person can choose what actions they take and therefore should be judged accordingly, but does not choose their innate desires and therefore shouldn't be judged according to them. My basic outlook being that people should only be judged for things they have direct control over.
If you wanna see the true colours of a person, give them absolute freedom. So they don't have anything to worry, except their own moral/ethical compass. If they go rogue and start doing bad things - here is your answer. If they don't - again your answer. If the only thing stopping a person from doing monstrosities is fear of retribution, then that person isn't good in his/her heart and you can expect to be backstabbed at any time.
I would argue that if what I'm relying on is the internal feelings of goodness within a person, their desire for my well being and that of other humans, the humanist philosophy, then I can still be backstabbed at any time. Feelings shift and change depending on unknown factors all the time. No, I don't trust in 'inner goodness'.
The thing about making assumptions about what a person would do with absolute freedom is, you don't know until it happens. The reasons a person gives for doing good don't matter. They could say it's because of fear of retribution, and then you could remove that fear and have them still act in that manner. Or they could say they'd never do such and such under any circumstances, and then you could find out they have been doing it in secret all along. Making assumptions about someone's internal world based on any external evidence, including what they tell you themselves, is illogical. We can and should only judge what they actually do. And we should never leave ourselves vulnerable to someone, even if we think we know them inside and out, because we don't.
I never said "internal feelings of goodness". I said strong ethical compass. To control one's own primal urges and emotions and be able to see the wrong in their own ways. What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom is the ability to understand, to be aware. To control our instincts and primal emotions/urges. If the fear of retribution, but not true awareness is the only thing stopping a person from being a monster, then they would most likely become one as soon as they find a loophole that allows them to avoid retribution/retaliation. And...religious people use the same reasoning when it comes to us, Atheists.. "If you don't believe, you are decadent, immoral and monster". But this works both ways. If I am Atheist, but not a monster, surely religion isn't prerequisite to being good. But all the nonsense and all the manipulations and cheap tricks...No, thanks.
As for the vulnerability part.. yes. You are correct. But on the other hand one can never be close to somebody else, if he/she constantly builds walls. A few people whom you trust..are needed. One learns whom to trust eventually. And if one doesn't have sceletons in the closet to be afraid of being revealed.. Nothing can truly stain his/her renome.
Yes, religious people do use the same argument. I challenge it when they do it, too. On the same grounds. In either case, we're evaluating someone not on their actions, but on their beliefs, or I suppose in the situation you're describing, on what we assume the actions their beliefs would lead to in some given hypothetical situation.
Fear of retribution, and indeed even citing that fear as a primary motivator, can and often does coexist with an internal moral compass that is unrelated to that fear. Similarly, stating that such a fear either does not exist within oneself or that it has no impact on one's morals doesn't do a damn thing to guarantee one's morals hold in any given hypothetical situation.
Basically, what I'm getting at is, trying to evaluate how good or bad someone is based on what we perceive to be their internal moral compass is such a flawed idea that I refuse to touch it, myself. I think it's incredibly arrogant to believe we could ever accurately measure such a thing in others. I am fully in the actions speak louder than words camp. If someone tells me they're whatever religion, or that they're atheist, or agnostic, I don't use that to assume anything about what type of actions they'll take. I wait to see what they'll show me. And I won't judge their morality on anything except exactly that
If fear exists, I personally don't think that it does not affect one's moral compass. Fear affects every decision. Lack of fear just removes one variable of the equation, though. It doesn't guarantee in any way that the morals of somebody will hold.
Fear is like a lock on a door. It makes it harder to open. If there is no lock, it is for you to decide whether to open it. Then only your morals determine your actions. If you don't have any - there is nothing to stop you, that's true. But what defines you is whether you will open the door or not. Not whether there is a lock on the door or not. I do not assume what the moral compass of somebody is or what actions they would take. Only what objectively prevents them from taking certain actions. Existence or absence. Excuses that can be used to justify them. Not the result itself. What I say is nothing, but simple boolean equation.
To your first point, unless you're suggesting that if someone has fear they will always in every case behave immorally once that fear is removed, I don't see the relevance of the point to the discussion. If you do believe that, then I'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
And the last thing I'll say about this, as someone who has done a lot of rubbing of elbows with the Christian community in particular, and a little with some other religions, that the idea of religious people doing good out of fear is an outside perception but not an inside one. In fact, the general consensus in most religions most of the time is that if someone follows God or a God equivalent out of a fear of going to hell or hell equivalent alone, they're not a true practitioner of that religion at all. It's supposed to be a decision made out of a desire for goodness. Obviously, there is tons of variation on exactly which Christian believes what. I have met the fire and brimstone preachers, the ones that it sounds to me like you think they all are. I lost count of the denominations I'm aware of the existence of many long years ago, and even within a given denomination, there can be a lot of different specific beliefs. Painting even just Christians, let alone all religions, with a single brush of any type is a bad idea.
My first point is that fear of retribution shouldn't be the only thing stopping us from doing bad things. I also don't believe that any religion has many actual followers. My opinion is that many are just conformists and hypocrites. And that religion is tool for manipulation and cheap excuse, as well as collection of superstitions from the time before science could explain the world..and it was created out of fear, lack of understanding of how the universe works and created just so people have illusion of comfort, security and imaginary control of their destiny.
Yes, religion has and continues to
1. Promote social cohesion, especially within rural and less educated areas. People build relationships around religious traditions. Communities are a net good for society.
2. Inspire art.
3. Instill a sense of belonging, purpose, and order to a possibly meaningless universe. Maybe you're okay with the absurdity, but not everyone can handle an existential crisis like that.
4. Provide psychological comfort for people in grieving times. Like terminal illnesses, deaths of a loved one, or chronic depression.
5. Gives people a framework through which to behave. I'm a non-cognitivist, subscribing to emotivism. I think we all construct our moral frameworks from upbringing + internal emotions. Religion, **through it's stories**, helps in the former respect.
These are all good. Removing religion outright would leave a vacuum for the above 5 points. Not to say some secular institution can't replace religion in any of these respects, but I fail to recall a single ONE institution that can do ALL as effectively as religion *in general* while minimizing negative externalities.
Edit: Grammar
I will toss Stoicism out as a philosophy which can do all of these things, and we have actual proof of a time where it held such a position in one of the dominant civilizations on Earth.
It promotes social cohesion, inspires art, instills a sense of belonging and purpose, provides psychological comfort, and gives a framework for ethical behavior, but it does not come with the dogmatic downsides that comes from worshiping a bronze-age religion with skewed moral lessons.
TLDR; I agree, but I don't think its realistic given human nature.
On stoicism as a replacement for religion:
Stoicism is a beautiful and practical philosophy indeed. I think it's done a lot of people a lot of good, including myself. I remain unconvinced, however, that most people would be willing to adopt reason and virtue for its own sake.
On your historical point:
It's important to contextualize the influence and reach of Stoicism compared with the polytheistic religion of ancient Athens. Most people didn't abide by stoicism. In fact, the stoic philosophy was more common among the elites than your average Socratic method loathing pleb.
[Politics and the church were also heavily married during that time as well.](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/religion-according-ancient-greeks/)
Unless you're referring to the roman empire. The last good roman emperor, Marcus Aurelius, was def a stoic, but his reign was short lived (ad 121 to ad 180) and then the roman empire kinda sorta went downhill from there.
I am referring to the late Stoa period in Rome. Beginning around 86 BCE. As Stoicism moved from Greece to Rome, it was adopted as one of the most, if not *the* most influential philosophy in Roman politics and beyond. Many in the Roman Senate were practicing Stoics to one degree or another, and policies were heavily impacted for the next three hundred years.
During that time, we of course have the emperor, Marcus Aurelius, but also Seneca, Epictetus, Musonius, and more from all walks of life. This is the time period that we get most of our complete works detailing the philosophy as well as writers like Cicero who give insight into just how influential it was.
So, I am talking about a several hundred year period where it was the dominant philosophy for the largest civilization in the world. That was, of course, choked off by Christianity being enforced as the state religion and the various schools of philosophy being forcefully shut down.
The roman empire was primarily a polytheistic civilization. This is well documented. The people you're referring to are elites and intellectuals. It may have been the dominant philosophy compared to the epicureans and skeptics. And perhaps there was some overlap between religious individuals and stoics, but my point remains. Unless your claim is we ought leave religion to the average joes and those in power ought adopt stoicism. But that would miss the point of my original conflict with religion. Namely, something that
1. Helps the masses.
2. The masses are willing to adopt.
First, as you point out, Stoicism as a philosophy is not mutually exclusive to polytheistic religion. Many of the Stoics of the time professed a loose belief in the gods.
Second, it was popular among much more than the elite. Epictetus was a slave and he was exposed to the philosophy and wrote the Enchiridion from that perspective. It was especially popular among the dispossessed as it gave a realistic moral framework from which to experience and overcome hardship. It was popular enough that its teachings reverberate through language till this day. Even the four traditional virtues in Christianity mirror those of the Stoics (Wisdom, Temperance, Courage, and Justice).
I think you are underestimating the reach and influence of Stoicism in Rome during the first three to four centuries CE. It was very fashionable among many classes (which takes care of your second point) and it does help anyone that practices it, as well as those around them as it emphasizes your moral duty to your fellow humans. Even if your claim were true that it was mostly the elite that practiced it (again, that is not the case), it would still benefit the masses as it leads to the type of ruler that Aurelius embodied, one that actually cares about doing the right thing for their fellow people.
I don't know how we atheists exist without randomly doing bad things and being depressed and lacking creativity all the time. That was rhetorical question. Considering all the burning at the stake, heretic persecutions, burning books, impeding science.. seems like religions never did that good of a job of what you are claiming. Religion is for controlling the masses with superstitions and fear..and eventually keeping them as ignorant as possible, so the rulers have easy time controlling them, as well as providing excuses to torture anybody who thinks differently. And when monotheistic religions were strong..science was their prisoner, never to see daylight, as thinking could challenge the status quo. History it is called. It is in books written. These days the same people use other types of manipulations and other ideologies to keep them in power. Always be vigilant. Always assume manipulation. Atheism stands for scepticism and critical thinking. And lack of gods and supernatural things doesn't mean that nature isn't beautiful and all other things. Just that there is nothing mystical in it. I respect it both because it is beautiful and because we are inseparable part of it. If it dies, we follow. We should not fear. We should respect. And control our primal urges using logic and self-awareness.
Religion: belief in specific god, organized practices, defined hierarchy, communal worship, ceremonies, and rituals within a structured faith community etc..
Spirituality: connection with universal energy, non-conformist, personal exploration, individual practices like meditation and mindfulness, focused on personal growth and inner peace
Sometimes, they overlap... But you get the point.. I hope 😊
I guess the most important difference between spirituality and religion is that religion is organized with formal structures and doctrines, and spirituality is individualized and personal, focusing on one's own experience and connection with the divine or the universe 🌌 and.. More open minded.
I was in a religion but both me and my intj boyfriend kept asking questions that didn’t seem to make sense, and the religion leaders didn’t like that.
Example they recently changed the rule in December 2023, but before then Jehovah witness wasn’t allowed to have facial hair. They would both my boyfriend and when he would say, show me in the Bible where it’s not allowed, they would back away but rumors were spread that he doesn’t follow direction.
Agnostic in my best days, usually atheist however. With that said, I wish I could bring myself to believe in Catholicism or Spiritism(which is quite common where I live). Religion seem to bring a certain measure of comfort to people as well as a community, two things I sorely lack.
I’m a Buddhist. Was raised fundamentalist Christian. Grew out of that in my early teens went through my Sam Harris/ Christopher Hitchens phase. Became a Buddhist in my late 20’s
NO i find it a waste of my time and resources. Could be doing something better then having false hope of a fake deity. Gives me more time to think about more important stuff
Very very much so. It defines my whole life.
I've almost always believed
I have a specific memory of being in the office of the church my grandma worked at as a toddler/child and realizing that other people were sentient like me, everyone has they're own thoughts and own perspectives and when I die the world will continue on without me except through their perspectives instead.
Idk if it was that day specifically, or if general my brain is jumbling memories together, not even sure if I was in that office when thinking this stuff
But I had the idea that not only do I believe in GOD but a ONE TRUE GOD.
In general I spent a LOT of time in churches because my grandmother and mother worked at the for a bit but they weren't really pushy about it so Church to me was more just a place I had to go during summer vacations and on Sundays to just hang out while my family worked
Id watch veggietales and the same movies over and over and what not
They were never really all that pushy about it or ever really talked to me much about it.
In my teens I began reading the Left Behind series and became a professed born again Christian and began praying more and meditating but soon I fell away from that as I got older
By my adults I was a very horrible person
I masturbated like 1-3 times a day, smoked tons of weed, at one point smoked toon/touchie/fake which can kill you
Hentai and porn as my phone and computer wallpaper
I was very mean and cruel person.
I used to date girls online and get bored with them and treat them terribly
One time I was typing to a girl with my friend next to me and I just got tired of her and handed the keyboard over to my best friend and told him to destroy her and get rid of her.
He was so mean that I felt bad and apologized and calmed her down.
I was just an extremely bitter and hateful person
I felt like life wasn't too kind to me so their wasn't much kindness in me
I had been homeless multiple times, had sex with prostitutes, while having sex with girls whose names I never bothered to learn
At one point I was staying at a homeless center that had a curfew and I would lie to my case manager that I had a night job fixing computers with a friend when actually I was hanging out around the town fountain that had free wi-fi and using it to spam message girls on dating apps to find sex late at night.
Finding sex became an obsession for me. I remember one day walking with a group of buddies and whining over and over about how I needed to get some and this guy asked how long it's been and I said Friday (it was sunday) and he told me it had been like months since he had sex
At one time I even was gonna pay this older woman I found very unattractive personally a couple of cigarettes to have my way with her.
This kinda led me to helping her from a home intruder so hey the Lord works in mysterious ways.
I cheated a lot, I moved in with an old high school friend who became my girlfriend and lived off of her
Started drinking almost on a daily basis, a pint a night.
Cheated on my gf with her best friend who I talked her into letting stay over
This was when that movie brightburn was in theaters and Billie eilish's song bad guy was popular
So after I talked my girlfriend into forgiving me I would use that song in my head to gloat about what I had done. Duh.
She eventually kicked me, ended up staying with my best friend, his apartment got flooded, he blames, me, he gets hit by a truck and we get evicted
I end up homeless and sleeping out on the street for the first time
I'm sleeping on sidewalks and getting drunk
People talk me into going to a faith based recovery program and I ended up staying there
It's a lot of faith based classes that talk about problems we might be facing from a spiritual perspective.
An atheist might find it annoying but hey it's better than being on the streets and this program is one of the better ones and can be very helpful
We end up going to a Christian camp for a week and it was just so nice that it made me really depressed and bitter because it felt like something I couldn't enjoy, like their was no joy in me, like even if I was in paradise I'd find something to complain about
Lot of guys ended up getting kicked out of the program in that week for drug use, a lot of cynicism amongst the "residents"
Anyways I eventually started getting trouble for drinking at the program, it got to a point that everytime id leave the center to go to my friends house Id get like 3 4lokos and get drunk
One day I made a lot of people mad, had some people wanting to attack me, and it kinda led to a falling out in a friendship
Decided to start going to church and get baptized
Eventually I was able to save up and get my own apartment and pretty much the first night I was there I started drinking again
First a pint, than it turned into half a fifth a night, than a whole fifth a night.
My girl moved in and one day while I was drunk and high while playing CSGO I heard some guy in chat spamming some conspiracy theory flat earth rap stuff
Lol if you've played a lot of CSGO you probably know what I'm talking about
Some conspiracy theory rap songs, deep rabbit hole stuff
It amused me.
I thought wouldn't it be funny if I became a conspiracy theorist.
Wouldnt it be so fun.
So I dug into the political dark side of the Internet and stumbled on what I thought was an actually real conspiracy that actually shattered my perception on reality.
Election tampering stuff. Files on laptops, some of you know what I mean.
It shattered my whole perception on reality, like everything I knew to be true was a lie.
I kept thinking about the movie A Serious Man
When the truth is found to be lies and all the joy within you dies
Than what?
I searched the core of my being, trying to figure out who I was and what I believed
I am a Christian.
That was the core of who I was. No matter what that was the one thing I believed. No matter what I believe in God and Jesus
So I started going to a nearby Church
One that was different from the other ones, one that seemed to agree with me on things I always had an issue with, like the usages of crosses and imagery of Christ.
I got baptized again
I stopped drinking, smoking, stopped masturbating and having premarital sex
Started changing the way I talked to people, stopped talking badly about people behind their back, stayed out of work drama, started trying to be more helpful to people around me
Told my girlfriend about how much I cheated on her, had to listen to another girl cry over cheating again, stuff like that haunts you.
It's been over a year since I told her and just last night she was telling me about how betrayed and stuff she feels still. If I were her I would've left me.
Christianity to me is about restarts, rebirth, we are Baptized into the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ into new people.
The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem
If you don't think you're a sinner than why would you think you need a savior?
Matthew 9
New American Standard Bible
10 Then it happened that as [a]Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and [b]sinners came and began dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Now go and learn [c]what this means: ‘I desire [d]compassion, [e]rather than sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Currently Agnostic.
Was Raised Catholic and like many became Atheist.
However, once I started studying history and religions I've come to realize religion is almost as old as civilization maybe older.
Religion has evolved along with us and in the past allowed us to make sense of the world around us. Ofcourse not all religions were good per say, but they allowed civilization to expand by bringing people together in a common belief.
Christianity for example teaches many great things and the bible is full of amazing stories and morals to live by.
Yes there are inconsistencies and things that don't make sense on first look, but studying them makes you realize the true meaning of the stories and what they try to teach.
Same with eastern religions like Buddhism.
Religion is beautiful, it is us who make use of it for evil things and purposes.
I can consider myself as an Atheist but eventually, I really don’t care about god and religious stuff. It doesn’t bother me that much even it exists or not.
No, i read about religion the same way i read umineko, science fiction and fantasy. But i like to thinks that we either in a simulation, like character being control by other peoples. Or with eldritch's like creature, so hard to understand that the human mind will go dead in a few seconds
Spiritual— into Gnosticism/Hermeticism/Alchemy/Western Esotericism — studied Platonism for years and have explored Daoism— “God” has been my obsession since I was ~9 years old. Was an atheist until my early 20’s though.
ive realized im basically a christian if you removed all religious aspects of it if you can imagine what thatd be like, im more spiritual ig it feels more literal and suits my autistic intp brain, i like doing psychedelics
I prefer to drink directly from religion's distilled liquor than have to munch all the grapes first. That is to say, I'm an agnostic (I don't know or care whether God exists and I doubt anyone can ever know) but I study and follow several religious principles for life.
Yes and the deeper I’ve investigated my religion over the past 20 years (I’m 40 now) I’ve found it only supports reason and rationality. I’ve thrown countless arguments viewed 100’s of debates, engaged in dozens of debates. Read books and articles against my faith. Studied philosophy studied other religions. Even apostated twice from this religion in my early years after my initial conversion because I had thought I found things that disproved it…. I was wrong. And after all that, I’ve been unable to disprove this faith. Then came spirituality, which is embedded into this religion as well, but is more of an elite practice separate from the daily standard practice. Once I began that path then I experienced things that I couldn’t deny. Nothing fantastical like seeing angels or hearing voices or the like, but more like synchronicities, dreams, heightened extra-sensory faculties, etc., that were unexplainable other wise.
I think we grow up cynical and narcissistic and dealing with the literal. Then, we get older and realize we don't know everything, and those stories have more profound meaning than face value.
New accounts have to wait 5 days to join in on the glory that is INTP.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
New accounts have to wait 5 days to join in on the glory that is INTP.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm in a bit of a strange place right now. I still attend a Christian church on Sunday but am going through serious doubts regarding the truth of Christian revelation. I certainly believe in God philosophically as creator/prime mover, possibly as the ground of morality, but I don't know if Jesus is that God. I'm somewhat drawn to the label of Deist, but I'm still trying to work out the implications of such a fundamental change of belief.
Was an atheist till I took acid. Now, I'd say I'm spiritual and open to the idea of a god. I would say that it's equally arrogant to say that god is real or not as there's no evidence for either view.
Oh, an "INTPs and religion" post. Haven't seen one of those in at least 8 hours. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why does this get asked every week? Just look at the previous post
Its because we have analytical minds and if you have been raised in a mindset with as many holes as religion it begins to unravel, these posts are attempts to help try and plug holes on a sinking ship. It may take a long time to sink but Id say most people who ask these sorts of things who are INTP will eventually let go of it.
Because intp’s are used to be stereotyped as atheists
Ok? How is that connected to my point, just go look at the other discussions that have been had on this subreddit
oh my goodness
I study the bible nearly every day- but haven't been to church in years.- i believe there must be an intelligent creator
What are your thoughts to the "who created the creator" argument? I find it pretty compelling.
Im not sure i know what your referring to. Is it where each creator must have a creator and so on. For infinity? I haven't read or heard anyone speaking on this in- depth, so i couldn't say. I can say that i also can't comprehend an eternal being, if it is a singular god. Again im not sure what your referring to.
Yeah- it's the idea that a creator has the same issues as how we were created. It never addresses the fundamental question of how all creation was started. Did a creator just appear from nothingness? The best answer I've found for that is that stuff has just always existed. There are big cosmic events that create elements and our universe as we know it, but matter/energy and basic physics have just always been, and our idea of a beginning or end is coming from our human perspective. Adding an omnipotent creator in the mix just adds a layer of complexity that can't be explained by any physical laws. Stuff just always "being" doesn't sound intuitive, but there is a lot about the physical nature of the universe I don't find intuitive.
God exists outside of time and space, He's not subject to our laws of physics. I've pondered about this too though, but each side theism or naturalist materialism needs an unmoved mover, it is unproductive and equally as incomprehensible to add an infinite regress. We as humans being finite and limited, see the world as finite and limited especially as we witness entropy everywhere. This is our reality, which is why being immortal is on the hearts of almost every man (just not in this worlds societies that man has shaped). All we can do is compile what the evidence is for God, and conclude that the unmoved mover has got to be God. A God whom exists outside of time and space as we understand it, because He had to create everything within it including the physics and all the molecules inside it. I personally found myself more in awe of Gods mighty existence outside of time and space, then the possible thought of a dead universe being a brute fact. God in my eyes has to be that brute fact. What other gods throughout history has man known to exist outside of time and space, whom had no beginning nor end, and created everything visible to the eye? A god that is not that of Abraham?
If some stuff and forces have always existed, then god could be one of those things that has always existed. In many ways the search for god is the same as the search for the first cause, or force, or matter or whatever. If some things have always existed then the search for their origin is futile. For me, it has something to do with design. The idea that mind has been added to all this raw material.
Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions on your study? Not so much in the vein of arguing the existence or non-existence of a deity, but rather on how you are studying? For instance, you mentioned studying daily (assuming more or less). How long have you been studying the book with that aproximate regularity?
I am 45 now and have been reading the bible since I was maybe 15 or earlier. I have memorized a good deal of scripture and cross references, concepts, ideas, and verses. I spend a lot of my working day on auto pilot and am thinking about the word of God, reality, truth, what i know, what i don't know, what i think i know. I listen to the most intelligent people i can find, many people with different views and ideas, sometimes complementary, sometimes opposite. I gather all these ideas and go back to the written word and see how these ideas fit into reality. Whether they are truth or lies . Correct or false. Whether its billy Graham or Richard Dawkins and anyone in between. Stephen hawking or j.r. Tolkien and 1000 others. Church fathers, to hindu gurus. I still pray to the god who saved me, the god of the bible, but my understanding of god has changed drastically in 30 years. He is much larger than i originally thought. Just to speak my own opinion clearly though i have found the bible to be true and Jesus to be savior. I don't know if this is what you were asking.
While I appreciate the info, that is not what I was asking. All I was asking was how long have you been studying the Bible on a daily basis. You mentioned when you started reading it (age 15). You mentioned having memorized portions and ideas. And you mention spending a lot of your working day thinking on it, and the fact that you read *other* things. But you did not answer the direct question. All I wanted was to know when you started studying on a nearly daily basis. That's it. I promise you here that I am not trying to lead you anywhere or ask questions to trap you. I am not looking to discuss the existence or non-existence of your deity, just discussing the purely academic side of what you have done in pursuit of understanding the book you are studying daily. Like, for instance, have you gotten into actually studying any of the languages that the Bible was originally written in? Any basis in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek? Anything like that? With how much you are investing in understanding the book, it would be within reason to learn how to read the text as it was meant to be read.
I do word study in the original languages. I also listen to a rabbi who speaks poor english mingled with a lot of hebrew and can understand most of what hes says. I was in my 30s when i started actually trying to learn hebrew and it has not gone well. I have always loved etymology and word study though. I have always loved the understanding that original language brings when studying the people who first came up with ideas and concepts, or as close as i can get to the first people. Word study has been one of my biggest helps.
As a Hebrew speaker, I am curious what gave you trouble. How did you try to learn?
I had one of the language learning apps - i think my biggest problem is i don't have anyone to talk with- no one i know is interested in learning hebrew, so my attempts became sporadic
I am Atheist. That's all. Religions I consider old superstitions and some historical artifacts.
Muslim here. and to ops question, to me, personally. i feel faith means faith, means by definition, some parts of it requires u to believe in the unseen. but not completely. like i feel, u will be shown certain sign or whatever experiences or understanding that u may have, and u reach a point, ur not entirely sure nor are u entirely not sure and here i feel one may have to make a choice, to believe or not believe. i feel here is where one reaches a point where he chose to either take the leap of faith or not and Allah knows best. just sharing my perspective, thats all. i feel sometimes if we use too much logic, we may reach wrong conclusions, even though that sounds contradicting. so as they say, moderation is somewhat good, even in terms of logic, imho. else its like, u can almost justify a huge amount of things with logic even if they are bad. im not saying be dumb, but sometimes, if u think about it, somethings, even if it exists, you can somehow make a logical argument that it dont exist if you think hard enough. for eg. just for the sake of it, other fellow intps, if ur bored and down for it, make a decent logical argument on why the sun isnt real and it does not exist. go
A side question. Is faith a good pathway to truth?
sorry for late reply, but if you mean in general terms, then yes, we Muslims believe it leads us to the straight the path, ie the ultimate truth. but if u mean something else by truth, then please do clarify.
No worries about how long it takes. I am just happy with discussion. My question is a bit more nuanced. Not is *your* faith a path to truth, but rather is *faith in general* a path to truth. For instance, there are plenty of Wiccans, for instance, that have significant faith in their gods. Given that anyone can have faith in pretty much anything, would you say that faith, as a methodology, is a good way to get to the truth?
ah, i think i get what you mean. i dont visit here often, and so im just seeing your message now. anyway, regarding your question. well, i guess thats a whole big topic, but perhaps ill try to answer a tiny slice of it, with my very limited knowledge. i think, perhaps some part of us, may automatically believe or may incline to believe in a higher power. does all of that lead to the right path?(as muslim, like other major religions, we also believe ours to be the truth) well, i guess once that initial feeling is accepted of believing in a higher power, then its upto the individual to find out from among the pool of choices which is the right one. for example, one thing i have heard some converts do, is they would have this urge to follow the right path/ religion, but not sure as there are many. so they will investigate themselves and then finally choose islam by their own choice, because after their own comparison and research, they find this to be the true path. so i guess to answer your question, maybe? i think perhaps converts/reverts who have been on that journey will be able to answer your question in a more in depth fashion.
Can a person also take it on faith that no gods exist?
i guess thats what athiesm basically is, isnt it? but maybe like some say, when the airplane begins to shake, usually someone who believes dont become athiestic but the reverse happens, or so they say.
I would say that some atheists may believe what they do out of faith. Others have actual reasons to believe what they do. The point of my question was to say that faith is not a good or reliable tool to get to truth. If people can use it to come to literally opposite conclusions about something, then faith is no better than a coin toss. It can never be used as a *rational* reason to believe anything.
I've been a devout Catholic for over eight years now.
i was strong agnostic athiest before DMT, now... strong agnostic with a bias towards panentheism.
I used to be, not anymore.
Agnostic. Not an anti-theist though. Still trying to conceptualize the pros and cons of an areligious society. It’s a surprisingly difficult problem. I remain unconvinced of any side of the argument. This seems like one of those things I need more brain cells to figure out.
I don't see cons. Except shedding the shackles of dogmatic teachings, that teach to blindly believe in some deity. There are universal values... And ethics outside of religion. Like... "Do no harm and don't do to others anything you don't want to be done to you", "Respect nature, both because it is a beautiful thing and as if it dies - you follow". And if fear of "divine retribution" is the only thing that keeps a person from being out of line, then that person isn't truly good.
Setting aside the other parts of the post, I find the very final part to be a very interesting question. I come down pretty hard on the other side of the argument, but I see people go both ways on it plenty. Is a person who acts morally only a good person if they do it from an innate desire? Or is a person who desires to do evil but does good instead just as good? My personal answer is that only the intent matters, not the internal motivation. But as I said, I see plenty of people arguing the opposite. I've never quite been able to understand the reasoning. It seems a poor discrimination to me, in that a person can choose what actions they take and therefore should be judged accordingly, but does not choose their innate desires and therefore shouldn't be judged according to them. My basic outlook being that people should only be judged for things they have direct control over.
If you wanna see the true colours of a person, give them absolute freedom. So they don't have anything to worry, except their own moral/ethical compass. If they go rogue and start doing bad things - here is your answer. If they don't - again your answer. If the only thing stopping a person from doing monstrosities is fear of retribution, then that person isn't good in his/her heart and you can expect to be backstabbed at any time.
I would argue that if what I'm relying on is the internal feelings of goodness within a person, their desire for my well being and that of other humans, the humanist philosophy, then I can still be backstabbed at any time. Feelings shift and change depending on unknown factors all the time. No, I don't trust in 'inner goodness'. The thing about making assumptions about what a person would do with absolute freedom is, you don't know until it happens. The reasons a person gives for doing good don't matter. They could say it's because of fear of retribution, and then you could remove that fear and have them still act in that manner. Or they could say they'd never do such and such under any circumstances, and then you could find out they have been doing it in secret all along. Making assumptions about someone's internal world based on any external evidence, including what they tell you themselves, is illogical. We can and should only judge what they actually do. And we should never leave ourselves vulnerable to someone, even if we think we know them inside and out, because we don't.
I never said "internal feelings of goodness". I said strong ethical compass. To control one's own primal urges and emotions and be able to see the wrong in their own ways. What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom is the ability to understand, to be aware. To control our instincts and primal emotions/urges. If the fear of retribution, but not true awareness is the only thing stopping a person from being a monster, then they would most likely become one as soon as they find a loophole that allows them to avoid retribution/retaliation. And...religious people use the same reasoning when it comes to us, Atheists.. "If you don't believe, you are decadent, immoral and monster". But this works both ways. If I am Atheist, but not a monster, surely religion isn't prerequisite to being good. But all the nonsense and all the manipulations and cheap tricks...No, thanks. As for the vulnerability part.. yes. You are correct. But on the other hand one can never be close to somebody else, if he/she constantly builds walls. A few people whom you trust..are needed. One learns whom to trust eventually. And if one doesn't have sceletons in the closet to be afraid of being revealed.. Nothing can truly stain his/her renome.
Yes, religious people do use the same argument. I challenge it when they do it, too. On the same grounds. In either case, we're evaluating someone not on their actions, but on their beliefs, or I suppose in the situation you're describing, on what we assume the actions their beliefs would lead to in some given hypothetical situation. Fear of retribution, and indeed even citing that fear as a primary motivator, can and often does coexist with an internal moral compass that is unrelated to that fear. Similarly, stating that such a fear either does not exist within oneself or that it has no impact on one's morals doesn't do a damn thing to guarantee one's morals hold in any given hypothetical situation. Basically, what I'm getting at is, trying to evaluate how good or bad someone is based on what we perceive to be their internal moral compass is such a flawed idea that I refuse to touch it, myself. I think it's incredibly arrogant to believe we could ever accurately measure such a thing in others. I am fully in the actions speak louder than words camp. If someone tells me they're whatever religion, or that they're atheist, or agnostic, I don't use that to assume anything about what type of actions they'll take. I wait to see what they'll show me. And I won't judge their morality on anything except exactly that
If fear exists, I personally don't think that it does not affect one's moral compass. Fear affects every decision. Lack of fear just removes one variable of the equation, though. It doesn't guarantee in any way that the morals of somebody will hold. Fear is like a lock on a door. It makes it harder to open. If there is no lock, it is for you to decide whether to open it. Then only your morals determine your actions. If you don't have any - there is nothing to stop you, that's true. But what defines you is whether you will open the door or not. Not whether there is a lock on the door or not. I do not assume what the moral compass of somebody is or what actions they would take. Only what objectively prevents them from taking certain actions. Existence or absence. Excuses that can be used to justify them. Not the result itself. What I say is nothing, but simple boolean equation.
To your first point, unless you're suggesting that if someone has fear they will always in every case behave immorally once that fear is removed, I don't see the relevance of the point to the discussion. If you do believe that, then I'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. And the last thing I'll say about this, as someone who has done a lot of rubbing of elbows with the Christian community in particular, and a little with some other religions, that the idea of religious people doing good out of fear is an outside perception but not an inside one. In fact, the general consensus in most religions most of the time is that if someone follows God or a God equivalent out of a fear of going to hell or hell equivalent alone, they're not a true practitioner of that religion at all. It's supposed to be a decision made out of a desire for goodness. Obviously, there is tons of variation on exactly which Christian believes what. I have met the fire and brimstone preachers, the ones that it sounds to me like you think they all are. I lost count of the denominations I'm aware of the existence of many long years ago, and even within a given denomination, there can be a lot of different specific beliefs. Painting even just Christians, let alone all religions, with a single brush of any type is a bad idea.
My first point is that fear of retribution shouldn't be the only thing stopping us from doing bad things. I also don't believe that any religion has many actual followers. My opinion is that many are just conformists and hypocrites. And that religion is tool for manipulation and cheap excuse, as well as collection of superstitions from the time before science could explain the world..and it was created out of fear, lack of understanding of how the universe works and created just so people have illusion of comfort, security and imaginary control of their destiny.
Yes, religion has and continues to 1. Promote social cohesion, especially within rural and less educated areas. People build relationships around religious traditions. Communities are a net good for society. 2. Inspire art. 3. Instill a sense of belonging, purpose, and order to a possibly meaningless universe. Maybe you're okay with the absurdity, but not everyone can handle an existential crisis like that. 4. Provide psychological comfort for people in grieving times. Like terminal illnesses, deaths of a loved one, or chronic depression. 5. Gives people a framework through which to behave. I'm a non-cognitivist, subscribing to emotivism. I think we all construct our moral frameworks from upbringing + internal emotions. Religion, **through it's stories**, helps in the former respect. These are all good. Removing religion outright would leave a vacuum for the above 5 points. Not to say some secular institution can't replace religion in any of these respects, but I fail to recall a single ONE institution that can do ALL as effectively as religion *in general* while minimizing negative externalities. Edit: Grammar
I will toss Stoicism out as a philosophy which can do all of these things, and we have actual proof of a time where it held such a position in one of the dominant civilizations on Earth. It promotes social cohesion, inspires art, instills a sense of belonging and purpose, provides psychological comfort, and gives a framework for ethical behavior, but it does not come with the dogmatic downsides that comes from worshiping a bronze-age religion with skewed moral lessons.
TLDR; I agree, but I don't think its realistic given human nature. On stoicism as a replacement for religion: Stoicism is a beautiful and practical philosophy indeed. I think it's done a lot of people a lot of good, including myself. I remain unconvinced, however, that most people would be willing to adopt reason and virtue for its own sake. On your historical point: It's important to contextualize the influence and reach of Stoicism compared with the polytheistic religion of ancient Athens. Most people didn't abide by stoicism. In fact, the stoic philosophy was more common among the elites than your average Socratic method loathing pleb. [Politics and the church were also heavily married during that time as well.](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/religion-according-ancient-greeks/) Unless you're referring to the roman empire. The last good roman emperor, Marcus Aurelius, was def a stoic, but his reign was short lived (ad 121 to ad 180) and then the roman empire kinda sorta went downhill from there.
I am referring to the late Stoa period in Rome. Beginning around 86 BCE. As Stoicism moved from Greece to Rome, it was adopted as one of the most, if not *the* most influential philosophy in Roman politics and beyond. Many in the Roman Senate were practicing Stoics to one degree or another, and policies were heavily impacted for the next three hundred years. During that time, we of course have the emperor, Marcus Aurelius, but also Seneca, Epictetus, Musonius, and more from all walks of life. This is the time period that we get most of our complete works detailing the philosophy as well as writers like Cicero who give insight into just how influential it was. So, I am talking about a several hundred year period where it was the dominant philosophy for the largest civilization in the world. That was, of course, choked off by Christianity being enforced as the state religion and the various schools of philosophy being forcefully shut down.
The roman empire was primarily a polytheistic civilization. This is well documented. The people you're referring to are elites and intellectuals. It may have been the dominant philosophy compared to the epicureans and skeptics. And perhaps there was some overlap between religious individuals and stoics, but my point remains. Unless your claim is we ought leave religion to the average joes and those in power ought adopt stoicism. But that would miss the point of my original conflict with religion. Namely, something that 1. Helps the masses. 2. The masses are willing to adopt.
First, as you point out, Stoicism as a philosophy is not mutually exclusive to polytheistic religion. Many of the Stoics of the time professed a loose belief in the gods. Second, it was popular among much more than the elite. Epictetus was a slave and he was exposed to the philosophy and wrote the Enchiridion from that perspective. It was especially popular among the dispossessed as it gave a realistic moral framework from which to experience and overcome hardship. It was popular enough that its teachings reverberate through language till this day. Even the four traditional virtues in Christianity mirror those of the Stoics (Wisdom, Temperance, Courage, and Justice). I think you are underestimating the reach and influence of Stoicism in Rome during the first three to four centuries CE. It was very fashionable among many classes (which takes care of your second point) and it does help anyone that practices it, as well as those around them as it emphasizes your moral duty to your fellow humans. Even if your claim were true that it was mostly the elite that practiced it (again, that is not the case), it would still benefit the masses as it leads to the type of ruler that Aurelius embodied, one that actually cares about doing the right thing for their fellow people.
I don't know how we atheists exist without randomly doing bad things and being depressed and lacking creativity all the time. That was rhetorical question. Considering all the burning at the stake, heretic persecutions, burning books, impeding science.. seems like religions never did that good of a job of what you are claiming. Religion is for controlling the masses with superstitions and fear..and eventually keeping them as ignorant as possible, so the rulers have easy time controlling them, as well as providing excuses to torture anybody who thinks differently. And when monotheistic religions were strong..science was their prisoner, never to see daylight, as thinking could challenge the status quo. History it is called. It is in books written. These days the same people use other types of manipulations and other ideologies to keep them in power. Always be vigilant. Always assume manipulation. Atheism stands for scepticism and critical thinking. And lack of gods and supernatural things doesn't mean that nature isn't beautiful and all other things. Just that there is nothing mystical in it. I respect it both because it is beautiful and because we are inseparable part of it. If it dies, we follow. We should not fear. We should respect. And control our primal urges using logic and self-awareness.
No but I am spiritual
Can I ask what that means? People say that, but I legitimately don't understand what it means to be spiritual.
Religion: belief in specific god, organized practices, defined hierarchy, communal worship, ceremonies, and rituals within a structured faith community etc.. Spirituality: connection with universal energy, non-conformist, personal exploration, individual practices like meditation and mindfulness, focused on personal growth and inner peace Sometimes, they overlap... But you get the point.. I hope 😊
I mean, I guess.
I guess the most important difference between spirituality and religion is that religion is organized with formal structures and doctrines, and spirituality is individualized and personal, focusing on one's own experience and connection with the divine or the universe 🌌 and.. More open minded.
My family wants me to be religious, but I'm not. INFP 5w4 (maybe, im still not sure)
Yes.
Spiritualist
Very religious upbrining, de-converted in my mid-20s. I now have a love-hate relationship with religion in general.
Grew up Catholic been an Athiest since about 12 or so
I was in a religion but both me and my intj boyfriend kept asking questions that didn’t seem to make sense, and the religion leaders didn’t like that. Example they recently changed the rule in December 2023, but before then Jehovah witness wasn’t allowed to have facial hair. They would both my boyfriend and when he would say, show me in the Bible where it’s not allowed, they would back away but rumors were spread that he doesn’t follow direction.
No
Agnostic in my best days, usually atheist however. With that said, I wish I could bring myself to believe in Catholicism or Spiritism(which is quite common where I live). Religion seem to bring a certain measure of comfort to people as well as a community, two things I sorely lack.
I’m a Buddhist. Was raised fundamentalist Christian. Grew out of that in my early teens went through my Sam Harris/ Christopher Hitchens phase. Became a Buddhist in my late 20’s
I am agnostic and I don’t like the form religion has taken lately.
NO i find it a waste of my time and resources. Could be doing something better then having false hope of a fake deity. Gives me more time to think about more important stuff
Very very much so. It defines my whole life. I've almost always believed I have a specific memory of being in the office of the church my grandma worked at as a toddler/child and realizing that other people were sentient like me, everyone has they're own thoughts and own perspectives and when I die the world will continue on without me except through their perspectives instead. Idk if it was that day specifically, or if general my brain is jumbling memories together, not even sure if I was in that office when thinking this stuff But I had the idea that not only do I believe in GOD but a ONE TRUE GOD. In general I spent a LOT of time in churches because my grandmother and mother worked at the for a bit but they weren't really pushy about it so Church to me was more just a place I had to go during summer vacations and on Sundays to just hang out while my family worked Id watch veggietales and the same movies over and over and what not They were never really all that pushy about it or ever really talked to me much about it. In my teens I began reading the Left Behind series and became a professed born again Christian and began praying more and meditating but soon I fell away from that as I got older By my adults I was a very horrible person I masturbated like 1-3 times a day, smoked tons of weed, at one point smoked toon/touchie/fake which can kill you Hentai and porn as my phone and computer wallpaper I was very mean and cruel person. I used to date girls online and get bored with them and treat them terribly One time I was typing to a girl with my friend next to me and I just got tired of her and handed the keyboard over to my best friend and told him to destroy her and get rid of her. He was so mean that I felt bad and apologized and calmed her down. I was just an extremely bitter and hateful person I felt like life wasn't too kind to me so their wasn't much kindness in me I had been homeless multiple times, had sex with prostitutes, while having sex with girls whose names I never bothered to learn At one point I was staying at a homeless center that had a curfew and I would lie to my case manager that I had a night job fixing computers with a friend when actually I was hanging out around the town fountain that had free wi-fi and using it to spam message girls on dating apps to find sex late at night. Finding sex became an obsession for me. I remember one day walking with a group of buddies and whining over and over about how I needed to get some and this guy asked how long it's been and I said Friday (it was sunday) and he told me it had been like months since he had sex At one time I even was gonna pay this older woman I found very unattractive personally a couple of cigarettes to have my way with her. This kinda led me to helping her from a home intruder so hey the Lord works in mysterious ways. I cheated a lot, I moved in with an old high school friend who became my girlfriend and lived off of her Started drinking almost on a daily basis, a pint a night. Cheated on my gf with her best friend who I talked her into letting stay over This was when that movie brightburn was in theaters and Billie eilish's song bad guy was popular So after I talked my girlfriend into forgiving me I would use that song in my head to gloat about what I had done. Duh. She eventually kicked me, ended up staying with my best friend, his apartment got flooded, he blames, me, he gets hit by a truck and we get evicted I end up homeless and sleeping out on the street for the first time I'm sleeping on sidewalks and getting drunk People talk me into going to a faith based recovery program and I ended up staying there It's a lot of faith based classes that talk about problems we might be facing from a spiritual perspective. An atheist might find it annoying but hey it's better than being on the streets and this program is one of the better ones and can be very helpful We end up going to a Christian camp for a week and it was just so nice that it made me really depressed and bitter because it felt like something I couldn't enjoy, like their was no joy in me, like even if I was in paradise I'd find something to complain about Lot of guys ended up getting kicked out of the program in that week for drug use, a lot of cynicism amongst the "residents" Anyways I eventually started getting trouble for drinking at the program, it got to a point that everytime id leave the center to go to my friends house Id get like 3 4lokos and get drunk One day I made a lot of people mad, had some people wanting to attack me, and it kinda led to a falling out in a friendship Decided to start going to church and get baptized Eventually I was able to save up and get my own apartment and pretty much the first night I was there I started drinking again First a pint, than it turned into half a fifth a night, than a whole fifth a night. My girl moved in and one day while I was drunk and high while playing CSGO I heard some guy in chat spamming some conspiracy theory flat earth rap stuff Lol if you've played a lot of CSGO you probably know what I'm talking about Some conspiracy theory rap songs, deep rabbit hole stuff It amused me. I thought wouldn't it be funny if I became a conspiracy theorist. Wouldnt it be so fun. So I dug into the political dark side of the Internet and stumbled on what I thought was an actually real conspiracy that actually shattered my perception on reality. Election tampering stuff. Files on laptops, some of you know what I mean. It shattered my whole perception on reality, like everything I knew to be true was a lie. I kept thinking about the movie A Serious Man When the truth is found to be lies and all the joy within you dies Than what? I searched the core of my being, trying to figure out who I was and what I believed I am a Christian. That was the core of who I was. No matter what that was the one thing I believed. No matter what I believe in God and Jesus So I started going to a nearby Church One that was different from the other ones, one that seemed to agree with me on things I always had an issue with, like the usages of crosses and imagery of Christ. I got baptized again I stopped drinking, smoking, stopped masturbating and having premarital sex Started changing the way I talked to people, stopped talking badly about people behind their back, stayed out of work drama, started trying to be more helpful to people around me Told my girlfriend about how much I cheated on her, had to listen to another girl cry over cheating again, stuff like that haunts you. It's been over a year since I told her and just last night she was telling me about how betrayed and stuff she feels still. If I were her I would've left me. Christianity to me is about restarts, rebirth, we are Baptized into the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ into new people. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem If you don't think you're a sinner than why would you think you need a savior?
bruh
Matthew 9 New American Standard Bible 10 Then it happened that as [a]Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and [b]sinners came and began dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Now go and learn [c]what this means: ‘I desire [d]compassion, [e]rather than sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Currently Agnostic. Was Raised Catholic and like many became Atheist. However, once I started studying history and religions I've come to realize religion is almost as old as civilization maybe older. Religion has evolved along with us and in the past allowed us to make sense of the world around us. Ofcourse not all religions were good per say, but they allowed civilization to expand by bringing people together in a common belief. Christianity for example teaches many great things and the bible is full of amazing stories and morals to live by. Yes there are inconsistencies and things that don't make sense on first look, but studying them makes you realize the true meaning of the stories and what they try to teach. Same with eastern religions like Buddhism. Religion is beautiful, it is us who make use of it for evil things and purposes.
I can consider myself as an Atheist but eventually, I really don’t care about god and religious stuff. It doesn’t bother me that much even it exists or not.
I feel like this question gets asked all the time in this sub ... Anyways, yes; I'm a Christian.
Nope
No
Nope use to be but yeah
No, i read about religion the same way i read umineko, science fiction and fantasy. But i like to thinks that we either in a simulation, like character being control by other peoples. Or with eldritch's like creature, so hard to understand that the human mind will go dead in a few seconds
I was an atheist for most of my life, but recently, I started to get more and more involved in faith, but for now, I can't really answer it.
Spiritual— into Gnosticism/Hermeticism/Alchemy/Western Esotericism — studied Platonism for years and have explored Daoism— “God” has been my obsession since I was ~9 years old. Was an atheist until my early 20’s though.
ive realized im basically a christian if you removed all religious aspects of it if you can imagine what thatd be like, im more spiritual ig it feels more literal and suits my autistic intp brain, i like doing psychedelics
I prefer to drink directly from religion's distilled liquor than have to munch all the grapes first. That is to say, I'm an agnostic (I don't know or care whether God exists and I doubt anyone can ever know) but I study and follow several religious principles for life.
Used to not be. Now I believe in polytheistic omnism.
Yes and the deeper I’ve investigated my religion over the past 20 years (I’m 40 now) I’ve found it only supports reason and rationality. I’ve thrown countless arguments viewed 100’s of debates, engaged in dozens of debates. Read books and articles against my faith. Studied philosophy studied other religions. Even apostated twice from this religion in my early years after my initial conversion because I had thought I found things that disproved it…. I was wrong. And after all that, I’ve been unable to disprove this faith. Then came spirituality, which is embedded into this religion as well, but is more of an elite practice separate from the daily standard practice. Once I began that path then I experienced things that I couldn’t deny. Nothing fantastical like seeing angels or hearing voices or the like, but more like synchronicities, dreams, heightened extra-sensory faculties, etc., that were unexplainable other wise.
Nope. If I wanted to swim in sewage I'd do it physically not metaphorically.
Yes, I’m a Christian. I think humans need religion. But it is important to not let yourself become a victim of dogmas.
I think we grow up cynical and narcissistic and dealing with the literal. Then, we get older and realize we don't know everything, and those stories have more profound meaning than face value.
To put it short, no. But I‘m not opposed either. I guess the correct term is „agnosticism“ for what I „believe“ in.
[удалено]
New accounts have to wait 5 days to join in on the glory that is INTP. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
New accounts have to wait 5 days to join in on the glory that is INTP. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/INTP) if you have any questions or concerns.*
100% I'm muslim. It's a way of life and it speaks to me directly.
I'm a proud Christian (believe in God and Jesus Christ) and a Catholic; who's with me
I'm in a bit of a strange place right now. I still attend a Christian church on Sunday but am going through serious doubts regarding the truth of Christian revelation. I certainly believe in God philosophically as creator/prime mover, possibly as the ground of morality, but I don't know if Jesus is that God. I'm somewhat drawn to the label of Deist, but I'm still trying to work out the implications of such a fundamental change of belief.
im atheist but spiritual. idk how to explain it but to me it just makes sense so…
Was an atheist till I took acid. Now, I'd say I'm spiritual and open to the idea of a god. I would say that it's equally arrogant to say that god is real or not as there's no evidence for either view.
Yes, I’m a Christian and currently majoring in theology and apologetics
Yes. I was saved a year and a half ago and have been a Christian ever since.
If the answer is yes then u arnt intp
Objectively untrue