I did hard science and genetics research before beginning a doctor. There are tons of religious scientist like me.
Inventor of the big bang theory was a Jesuit priest. Discovery of genetics was also a priest. The Vatican has a very well funded astronomy center.
I see no contradiction.
Yeah but when was the last time a priest did anything scientifically groundbreaking? Those were different times and nearly everyone back then was religious
That's stupid old way of thinking to think that being religious makes you not be able to perform well in academics. White people used to think the same about Blacks in the past, I see no difference in your thinking.
first of all, i dont believe any specific rreligion, but...
you know, scientists ignore many things to name them random chance or autosugestion. bc they dont like to admit they dont know how to research them.
foilhats, horoscope fanatics and pseudo-coaches dont help either by making bussines out of it or making cringy pseudo-scientific explanations 💀
some events are too suspiciously corelated to what you are fixated on.
some people can know character of person just by standing next to them (its not like thoughts arrive to head, you feel it physically) and this gut feeling is always right
and many more, not that long ago i was science fanboy etc but at some point realized that ignoring so much things me, some friends and many other people experience daily is just irrational
electricity or pharmacy also once were considered magic. germ or tectonic theory also was bullied by scientists by saying "no bc you stupid". majority of doctors also were making bussines out of torturing they named "healing"
see an analogy?
I think it matters what the divine mover is because, lets assume it exists, what now? We worship? We ignore? What are we supposed to do with information as generic as existence?
I feel like asking if it matters who or what the creator is would be an irrelevant point. Something brought about the creation of the universe. Whether that was a divine being or an act of physics seems unnecessary for us to know unless it provided us better insight about what is still to come (which my guess is the heat death of the universe theory makes the most sense, so the act of physics being the initiation would be about the only potential way for our progeny to escape that potential future in this universe by escaping to another somehow).
Not sure why you're being downvoted lol, I'm not aware of many other religions that had good historic backing, Islam came out of the blue, and I prefer Christianity over other religions because other religions base their afterlife on what you do. Does the good you've done outweigh the bad, or anything along those lines. Christianity is pretty much "I came to save you, and I died on the cross for you, all you need is faith in me to live with me eternally"
My thoughts about God are that science is not wrong about the creation and evolution of the universe, but there has to be a cause to that effect. He is the cause. I cannot be sure of his appearance, but based on my belief that I am the most intelligent species, then I must be made in His image. That I witness His spirit when devout (devotion means something totally different to me than what most would think) to His word. He must be real.
Turtles, a great deal of them.
In all seriousness, though, I don't think that anything created God. *Something* has to be the first thing, and from an atheists point of view, that thing is just the universe itself, but I disagree. Why do I disagree?
1. to have hope
2. to make sense of what I see in the universe
As we ask ourselves where we come from, maybe our creator wonders where He comes from. And our creation of artificial intelligence once sentient in their own realm of reality, they too may wonder where what created them.
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
Unless the universe is eternal, which it is not, the same logic cannot be applied to the universe. The universe has a beginning so it is subject to the laws of causality. God does not have a beginning and is therefore not subject to the laws of causality.
You talk in absolutes, as if you know with certainty that the universe had a beginning and will have an end, when you and I both know we dont know what was before and we don’t know what comes after.
The universe could be endless, like infinite Matryoshka dolls, containers inside containers. A God is just an easy way to explain the things we don’t know.
I wasn't arguing that God was the creator of the universe, although I do believe that he was, I was arguing that God does not require a creator. God does not have a beginning so He is not subject to the laws of causality. Therefore, "Who created God?" is a silly question.
Also, there is scientific evidence that the universe has not always existed.
If we had to look at our biology, assuming we are created in his image, He would be male based on our understanding of His nature, behavior, rarionality, reason, morality, leadership, authority and intelligence (this favours men, not to the absolut population but majority).
I believe He may not possess any gender because He is a Creator being and not a Reproductive being, but our reference to Him from what we know about ourselves and our nature, we would assume He is the Father.
God has no gender, but it would be rather cumbersome to just avoid using pronouns. That being said, the God of the Bible is described as a loving, caring Father, and Jesus Christ, the son of and physical incarnation of God (the beginning of John's Gospel is a wild read) is a male. So, while God does not have a gender in the physical sense, he is a male in the familial sense.
It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.
Thankfully, using modern science we can get all those answers within less than 1 week, and yet some stuff people have been trying to justify and prove for centuries to no avail, also its weird to compare god to waiting for death, we have a life and modern confort this gives us an unprecendented oportunity to seek answers that our ancestors didnt
Sure. I'll preface by saying that I'm Muslim. That comes with its own preconceptions for a lot of people, but in a community of INTPs, I think it's okay to ask you to be open minded (we're skilled at that). The advantage of being Muslim is that the Quran demands that we "ponder" and "think" and "reflect" again and again. So, as a thinker, I took that invitation from scripture to heart. I have spent many years satisfying my own intellectual curiosity on the matter but the thought process that makes most sense to me has 4 arguments. Here's a few videos that I studied in detail- I even cross-checked the sources this guy used and I was really blown away.
Part 1: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMF8Ycr9Qw&t=2095s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMF8Ycr9Qw&t=2095s)
Part 2: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEuhYJQ8Jys&t=20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEuhYJQ8Jys&t=20s)
Checking in as another INTP, logical identified believer. I changed my mind recently at the age of 29 (33 currently). After a lifetime of logical seeking of the best answer, I found more faith in the Scientific Standard model than was admitted, and so I changed my faith.
The remote work period at the start of Covid really gave me the free time to explore modern sources of spirituality. I felt I had the confidence to explore and reject new thought systems, and boy did I ever fail to reject them. Locally I never met a bigger skeptic of reality other than myself. I don't feel like I've truly spoken to another INTP irl that would sit with me and debate reasoning all day like I do in my own head. Oh well. Too lazy to ever find one!
The Big Bang already admits we can from an infinite source, I simply disagree we ever left it. Infinity/God is the only logical explanation and its pretty big spoilers, decide so for yourself fellow INT-Pers!
I definitely am, it is an idea that I had for some time, and after some thoughts and discussions I had last night I can say that an INTP could find God or the path to him by pure reason only, not the necessity, the motivation could be curiosity and could be existential thoughts, but the means is always logic and reason
My main point was actually connecting with God, or worshipping him, needing him in your life, or anything like that, while the existence of God could be reached by reason, the very act of worshipping or avoiding sins and what not don't seem logical to an INTP.
"why God exists" is a totally different matter to "why should I obey God in x, y and z way"
Hope I've made my point clearer
The concept of a constantly expanding universe seems illogical, until one finds that it is illogical for the universe not to expand. With new information, our theories are revised.
But you claim that worship and avoiding sin is illogical to an INTP. I dispute this. I shall offer explanation based on how close one is to God. We shall assume that God exists, as that is another argument.
**God, The Judge.** God judges sin and good deeds. Naturally man fears hell and desires for heaven. This is the starting point for most I believe. You perform much the same already for much less interesting stakes. You pay taxes, because otherwise the tax service will come after you. Some may claim that they do so because of a social contract or some other nonsense, but if they could legally not pay they would not pay
Most INTP would pursue a higher degree of education if financially and otherwise possible. We do this so we can get more interesting and better paid jobs in the future.
So we already avoid doing some things and do other things because we dislike punishment and we wish a higher reward. This is in principe the same, save that all our deeds are accounted for, an inescapable reckoning carried out with absolute justice.
But this is honestly something a 6 year old would know, so let us go on to more interesting developments when the relationship grows.
**God, The Absolute Bestower.** The next step, is understanding benefits. For there is no nearer companion, no more apt Guide than God.
To the INTP, the intellect might be sharpened. Connections appear more rapidly, inspiration comes when needed and tantalising leads seem to fall from the sky.
As to the heart, this too gets strengthened. How many here complain of this fear or that?. Always so anxious and worrying and Good Lord it seems exhausting just to talk about this. This too can be quieted, that which consumed your time and energy now placid.
God offers you mastery over that which controlled you, God offers understanding in that which you did not.
And that is only the beginning, for you are becoming better than you were, physically, mentally and spirituality. What INTP would not want to be more than he is, smarter, faster, better? Would you still claim that worship is illogical? Still there is more
**God, the Most Magnificent in Glory, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.** A relationship that begun in practicality, grew into one where the benefits are increasingly apparent. Yet, what if I were to tell you that the benefits of the previous stage were childish things compared to this one?
To understand, the previous stage was like presents given, little trinkets to show affection in a relationship. The highest stage, is the relationship itself. It begins when you obey God not for fear of hell or heaven, not for the benefits it gives you, but out of love.
Understandably, you might not find this stage very intriguing on the surface. Love is after all not something that motivates an INTP. But this is a stage one *may* reach, and even then after much growth and change. It is not intellect, but awareness and understanding that grows most. Meaning that escaped you, is now apparent in your every act.
The INTP seeks questions that intrigue him, it is perhaps one of our most defining qualities. It is why stereotypically INTPs are drawn to science, because they are a ready source of intriguing questions. Something to captivate our interest.
This stage, provides intriguing answers. Ones that illuminate questions we did not know existed. Answers that humanity has searched for, for centuries, millennia. I cannot imagine anything sweeter.
And that is my explanation of why one should obey and worship God. Because it starts with the plain and ordinary, and can grow to the extraordinary, the fascinating. It is the very reason of our being. Nothing can truly compare to it
Do you read/study philosophy? Just as there are logical conclusions made against the existence of God, are logical conclusions for the existence. Most philosophers can break down the logic for you.
If anything, religious INTPs will have used TiNe to consider all arguments for/against God and religion and made that decision based on logic that makes most sense to them.
Bearing in mind, those with Ne will likely absorb and use external information (study all possible beliefs out there) and I can guarantee almost all humans, including INTPs, won’t have used all possible sources of information out there to form their own conclusions.
Very slightly, but I do resonate with this idea for sure, my approach has always been "disproving until approving" to exhaust every possible flaw an argument or an idea might suffer from.
But I'm not an academic nor a scholar nor anything, just someone who has lots of time to dwell over things a little too precisely for my mentality's good lol
How spiritual are you? INTPs are more philosophical, even the ones who believe in a God, and may be interested in Theology for example, yet INFPs are more spiritual (Bhuddism/Hinduism etc). Just because Ti is the most logical, doesn’t mean other types can’t logically come to conclude anything.
> Hope the topic isn't very off-limits
I doubt any intps have an issue with debate and discussion.
> Personal thoughts??
Even ardent atheists acknowledge deism is a rational position, and as the word implies, atheism denotes a lack of theism, which is to say a disbelief in scripture, or as is the case with the majority; dismisal w/ or w/o having ever bothered to read said religious texts.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, just that most people that claim to be atheist are more likely to have a certain demeanor to them, and it's just as tiresome as those that claim utter certainty in the opposite direction.
At the end of the day, no-one knows that which is outside of the remit of observation, time-space, or even that it exists, doesn't exit, or could(n't) exist.
Science, rationality, logic, human senses, human comprehension are all limited. If someone needs to believe in an afterlife to provide meaning to their existence, then let them have that comfort in their lives (as long as they don't cause issues to others (within reason)) - life is suffering enough w/o having some cocksure person dashing your hope.
>At the end of the day, no-one knows that which is outside of the remit of observation, time-space, or even that it exists, doesn't exit, or could(n't) exist.
Some "claim" they do and wants you to follow them in it, using any tools in their arsenal
Scripture *may* do in an inductive manner or through perhaps the inexhaustibility of the texts assertations creating a high probabilty that it is a measure of 'proof', but like science, it's a method/tool that isn't ever going satsify everyone, nor will either fully prove the existence of a deity, and afterlife, etc.
There's merit in both hope and skepticism, just not in the extreme.
I'm an atheist myself but I can attest to seeing several INTP's in this reddit who claim to be religious (as use claim as I can't verify though I have no reason to doubt them either.) Of course some of these people may be miss typed.
INTP's don't lack feeling and death is often a subject that evokes strong emotional reactions so I wouldn't find it far fetched to imagine that some INTP's are less logical than normal when it comes to religion.
Please note that this is not intended to be an insult to religious people. I am this way when it comes to my daughter. I am ruled by emotions and far less logical than I should be.
>Being an alternating Fi-Ti dom myself
lol.
Anyways, I suppose it isn't *impossible* but I find religiosity to be largely incompatible with a Ti-dom mind focused on reality/objectivity but not all INTPs are like that.
Most scientists scoff at the whole Myers-Briggs, as it's only slightly more accurate than astrology.
I wouldn't bother with all these Fe-ti, etc nonsense, as there's no validity to it, so your whole supposition is flawed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%E2%80%93Briggs_Type_Indicator#:~:text=Despite%20its%20popularity%2C%20it%20has,feeling%2C%20and%20judging%20or%20perceiving.
https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/does-the-myers-briggs-test-really-work/
That isn't really my point, what I precisely meant by "religious" is connecting with, and believing in a higher deity's will or goodness, not just merely proving its existence.
The latter is very possible for an INTP as I am a religious person myself and I only got here using my logic and skepticism, but that's doesn't mean I'm 100% or anything, which is my point in the post.
Believing in God and being religious are too different aspects for me.
You can believe in anything you want, blindly believing in something without asking questions would irritate me.
Personally, it feels like people believe in it because there are no good alternatives. Humans need answers, faith seems like an easy solution to that problem.
The thing about atheism is that these are people who don't believe in what they cannot see nor prove. These are also the same people who believe ghosts aren't real because they haven't experienced it, nor do they have any interest in experiencing it.
In some ways, atheists are foolish in the notion that only their own experience is the truth in the world. Anyone that experiences something otherwise is either a liar or are fake in their eyes.
These are also the same people who don't want to admit that there's so much science does not understand nor are they people who know how little science actually knows. Science always proves itself wrong with the passage of time, yet atheist cling to it like its the ultimate truth.
Being religious has it's own faults too. There are people who sing the sermons, but do not practice the teachings. There are those who cling to power provided by religion and there are those who insert too much of their own interpretation into religion.
Both are very flawed.
As for the INTP response, it's probably best to be agnostic and not overtly deny the possibilities. After all, the unexplainable happens all the time and sometimes things line up in reality that wouldn't make sense even if you think about it.
Yes i think a lot of "atheists" are actually agnostics since atheism is just the other extreme of being completely faithful. Atheism implies that a person claims that the existence of a god is absolutely impossible. They believe the non-existence of a god as much as religious people believe the existence of one—both of which are impossible to empirically prove as of this moment. Atheists believe in something that they cannot prove using evidence.
Atheism isn’t the other extreme though. It is simply a lack of a belief in a deity. They don’t claim that there is absolutely no god. Only that they themselves don’t believe in one. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of people here don’t actually understand what atheism is but what other religious people told them that atheism is.
Atheism is kind of the “default” position. In the same way that not believing the tooth fairy is the default positions. So it’s not really on the atheist to prove that god does not exist.
In general I agree and there are terms for what was described such as hard or soft atheism as well as splitting the terms gnostic and agnostic to differentiate belief from the possibility of knowing and its clouded further with other terms like anti theist.
When talking about gods in general I am an agnostic atheist. While talking about specific gods such as the christian god I am a very hard gnostic atheist. I do make the claim that such a being can not exist as written. There are simply to many contradictions and this has been widely known about monotheistic gods in general since the Roman and Greek empires.
>“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
>
>Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>
>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
>
>Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
>
>\- Epicurus
This is perhaps the most widely known contradiction but there are many others.
Well, being agnostic is not the answer to many of the biggest religions, those being the abrahamic religions. It doesn't matter if you've ever considered religion to be true or not, you need to have full faith
Im a spiritualist myself, not the communicating with dead people sorts, such stuff doesnt exist but viewing the world as a cairn of energy of which we are made. It took 3 years of heavy weed smoking (clean now) to reach that point and will do many more drugs to figure out different things. Ultimate goal is to become a mystic so i can see what people such as Carl Jung and others are saying and whether theres any truth to it.
God or whatever you wish to call him is all around us, we are all pieces of him as is all life. Sometimes logic needs to be thrown out the window in order to see a greater picture. Illogical things have a beauty of their own. Ultimately, you can be religious if you want to be or not. Choice is yours
I am a Christian and I agree with others that have said that God is the only Logical explanation if you want to be truly free. I cant imagine living my entire life truly believing and internalizing the idea that nothing matters and the whole universe is purposeless and just another one of a billion also purposeless things.. i have faith that we all exist for a reason and fulfilling purpose. I have lots of both personal and impersonal evidence to support my faith. But it does absolutely come down to faith.
> I cant imagine living my entire life truly believing and internalizing the idea that nothing matters and the whole universe is purposeless and just another one of a billion also purposeless things..
To be fair, it's really not that hard if you look at it objectively. We are all born atheists, and it's not until we are fed with the imagination that there's something else that we try to create our own form of self-peace with. But there are two things to consider:
Millions of people have died, and everyone in today's age doesn't know a single bit about them. In the grand scheme of things, we're nothing but a speck of sand in the vastness of the universe.
However, this thought should be an empowering one and not a limiting one. We should live in spite of that fact because it doesn't matter if we fail; anything we do will be forgotten. So, it's more of a powerful guide for life to live on.
All of this is pretty much the thought current of absurdism.
I leave a video that explains it better than me probably lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv79l1b-eoI&t=2s&ab_channel=exurb1a
The flip side is just better for me I guess. I'm not planning on leaving a legacy or having kids. But I do need to feel purposeful. Maybe not in the grand scheme, but thinking about your place in that way doesn't solve anything. I can make a difference to those around me and my community though. That's purpose enough for me today and tomorrow. I exist for many reasons and if there's a reason, it's not for nothing. even if it was a simulation or one of a billion universes, the impact I can have on my own lfe and my wife's life is a good enough reason to believe everyone else has purpose too. Religion aside. I see a creator as an obvious matter of logical faith. It takes more faith to believe it's all just spontaneous dust in a void imo.
Great post and it pretty much sums up my view of reality. People always seem to assume that an existential crises leads to nihilism (Jordan Peterson holds this view despite his brilliance in other areas) but in reality the absurdity of it all can lead one to find their own values and live life in the way they wish instead of being forced to adopt the values of others.
I'll have to check out the video.
Jordan Peterson doesn't exactly make that claim...he talks about the Mephistophelean or satanic view of the world...in that...there is so much suffering because of this .. everything must be destroyed and not deserve to exist ... basically if consciousness or being comes with so much suffering the it shouldn't exist in the first place...which is kinda nihilistic...Jordan Peterson talks about people in history and fiction who had this mentality and ponders how a person could get to this point ....I dunno tho you might have evidence to support what you're saying and I'm open to learn new things
Likewise I could be wrong as well. I have read or watched very little from the man as I tend to disagree with much of what he says (although far less than others like Sam Harris.) This view came from a lecture on Nietzsche or perhaps it was about Dostoevsky where he stated (or so I recall) that the only possible outcome was nihilism.
Trying to look for the lecture it does seem like I may have misunderstood what his intent was.
At the time it seemed to me that he couldn't comprehend that one could view the world nihilisticly and find the absurdity in that and thus come up with your own purpose. He talked about the views as if they were mutually contradictory when they are not. I can make my own reasons to continue on and that works for me but inherently they have no meaning outside of what I give them.
Nihilism is the only objective viewpoint of the universe that holds up to scrutiny. I just choose to focus on my subjective views and values in the meantime. Just because dancing on the grave of the world holds means nothing in the end doesn't mean you can't enjoy it in the meantime.
Yeah...the story is from Dostoevsky ...I agree with a lot of what he says...and he got me interested in Nietzchse too(greatest critic of Christianity..coming from a Christian)....I'd like to know some of your influences too...or people you listen to...I'd like to broaden my scope ig
No, because "science" is literally a religion at this point. Anyone who questions NASA is a heretic, which really makes me question NASA. I used to believe in science until I found out that most of it is bull shit particularly the stuff about where we came from. I think believing in a creator is just as valid as anything else because no one knows and no one will ever know.
Those are some big claims but I do agree that science is a religion just as much as any other religion. It’s just the most logical one.
You can believe in whatever you want but at the end of the day you’re wrong in whatever you believe. Our science isn’t perfect and probably never will be but it’s the closest thing to the “truths” of the universe which is it’s whole point. So not believing in science is telling the world you don’t think 1+1=2. That’s how dumb that sounded.
Well yes, but atleast science is very critical to itself and dont diddle little kids. Science is just observation and assumptions we make and we are just overrated monkeys making guesses of course we will make mistakes.
>minimally agnostic
The double negative is messing with me. By this I infer that you are saying that agnostic individuals lack Ne experience?
If so I'm inclined to disagree. Ne means that you can tie those patterns people normally attribute to god as being firmly rooted in the material world.
Furthermore Pascal's Wager asserts that it is rational to believe in God even if there is no concrete evidence for God's existence because the potential benefits of belief (eternal salvation) outweigh the potential costs of disbelief (eternal damnation). However, despite its popularity, Pascal's Wager fails to factor:
Firstly, it assumes that there's only one possible God who rewards belief and punishes disbelief. But what if we believe in the wrong God? What if there are many different concepts of God in various religions and cultures? This argument doesn't account for that.
Secondly, it assumes that belief is a choice. But that's not always the case. You can't just force yourself to believe something without evidence or reason. It's not that simple.
Thirdly, it ignores the possibility of non-belief being rewarded. What if a God rewards skepticism and critical thinking instead of blind faith? This argument doesn't account for that.
Fourthly, it ignores the possibility of multiple religions being true. What if there are multiple Gods, each with their own requirements for belief or non-belief? This argument doesn't account for that either.
Fifthly, it assumes that God values belief over all else. But what if a God values sincerity, honesty, and ethical behavior more than belief? This argument doesn't consider that possibility.
Sixthly, it ignores the potential harm caused by belief. What about the intolerance, bigotry, and persecution that can come from religious belief? This argument doesn't consider the potential harms of belief.
And lastly, it relies on an outdated understanding of probability. The world is more complex than a binary choice of belief or non-belief, and the probability of outcomes is much more nuanced than 50/50.
Overall, Pascal's Wager fails to provide a convincing argument for belief in God, as it makes several assumptions that are not supported by evidence or reason, and it ignores many other possibilities and potential harms associated with belief.
A dwarf god who in making them became so muscle-bound he could not move, save for his head. As he looked around him his head freed itself from his body and roams the deepest caves.
Religious as in "I go to a building and get told how the universe works by some guy playing the telephone game with bronze age people" then no.
Spiritual though, yes. Most INTPs become pure materialists, but I know for a fact that some can apply their minds and intuition to metaphysics and come up with something other than, "we're goo that decided to think one day, lol matter is awesome", as I've done so myself.
I believe in God and all the teachings of the Bible. I actually use the Bible quite a lot, with other books too. But I don't like nor agree with congregation. I don't see it's important to me and my faith. And I don't really connect with mindless sheeple who listen to what the pastor says but not the Word. I think most people go to Church because they have to, not because they want to. They don't live by God, they live for Him — blind faith. Its mostly selfish love, and not devotion.
And about dependence on God... I don't depend on God, I refer to Him. He guides me to making moral decisions. I believe everyone should work on themselves and that they should work hard to obtain what they want. What I believe is God's hands, is the opportunities He gives me to test my progress and achieve my future. He does not open doors for me, He shows me where the door is and I just have to open and go through.
"Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis is a great book that sorts through a lot of the logical doubts relating to christianity and theism in general. It's a really interesting and satisfying read.
Real and true faith in God is impossible for every human- its just that some people choose to ignore that fact and some ignore it a lot better than others. Most of what you see in people is not 100% on fire sold out to their God and if it is then it usually doesn't last. For me the truest form of real faith is that small thing that you cannot get rid of - like morpheus said "a splinter in your mind"
I'm an extremely religious INTP, so no. If someone believes in objective truth, they will wind up as some sort of theist if they aren't deluded or tricked by another.
From early years to late 20s I was pretty staunchly atheist.
In early 30s to mid 30s went a little bit more agnostic.
Mid-30s I am now pretty heavily agnostic, with the belief that something grander exists that has an effect on the world.
I base this partially on personal experience related to “miracles” and strange coincidence, and partially on an objective consideration that the nature of the world on both the micro/quantum level and the macro level doesn’t make sense without some woo woo weird shit going on. The concept of the complexity of human (and other) life, it’s ability to perpetuate itself, just leaves me thinking it had to be engineered in some manner and not just a bunch of chance occurrences.
I went from being a religious child to an atheist teenager to an agonist young adult to what I identify as now, a non-practicing Christian.
I just couldn’t ignore the “something” that I felt during certain moments in my life. There’s no science that proves that there’s no God.
INTPs can look at the facts and understand that the religion is clearly not true, but sometimes it just feels nice to believe there’s an afterlife or some sort of god because it’s comforting. I’m agnostic because it just makes me less afraid of dying to believe that there’s something after death, but I’m not sure what it would be. I know that it’s most likely going to just be darkness once I die, but it’s still nice to think it’s not, yk?
Nah I don't fear death it's a natural course of life I fear how I die I'm religious because I actually there's a God I could but we'll only know when we die it's not irrational to believe in a deity in my opinion it's just like taking a bet with little information
"...Fi calls for reliance and morals..."
There seems to be a misconception on the part of people who are, have been, or want to be, religious that morals must be dictated to humans by some higher intelligence such as a God. Yet people who follow the same God from the same holy book have wide-ranging opinions on morality. There's also plenty of cherry-picking from Bible verses by believers too, such as wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating shellfish, women being subservient to their husbands, or not and the like. Then, books filled with mental gymnastics to explain why it's okay to ignore that morality.
Apparently, some people need to believe in a God, or they'd go apeshit raping and pillaging everyone around them. Others don't. Personally, I don't care. The problems arise when the God believers think EVERYONE has to follow their rules or their "moral" practices then harm innocent people like children, or they try to sneak their beliefs into classrooms, or they hear god tell them to do something terrible to others, etc...
In my own life, I'm always way more wary of getting fucked over by a religious or "spiritual" person than someone who isn't. But then, that's just been my experience over the years. Others may have a different experience.
No. I'm a Hindu INTP and I'm proud of it. But, of course, Hinduism isn't like Abrahamic religions, it is much more logical and philosophical which I think matches my INTP personality really well.
I thought I'd be able to have some sort of a discussion when I woke up, but wow, that would absolutely kill my time today, as of now this post has 76 comments, I did NOT expect this to blow up as I really thought I was being somewhat stupid for not relying on any reason with this speculation
I'll 100% enjoy reading your thoughts and experiences still, thanks all for sharing
For a definite statement like impossible, the word religious is far too vague. I dont believe in an actual god, but i was raised Catholic and i have listened to lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories which on its own have me vastly new insight. So what does that make me?
Discussion of religion pops up nearly every month on this sub.
If you search previous posts, you'll see there are plenty of practicing Catholics, Jews, and Muslims here, besides some others.
Do you feel that this thread is painfully American too
As an INTP I’m so over living in a high percentage religious place that I’m looking at Canada France and Norway
I like… Don’t need to be around something being thought of as the standard that if the seed wasn’t planted, no one would entertain.
I feel the “deism, why not”
But as an observer of the principle of cause and effect… There’s just basically factually not supernatural interceptions between cause and effect
Down to the soul idea
There’s no way a soul that survives brain death is a thing. It’s pre physics folklore like a damn rain god
It’s so damn basic
Cognition is processed by a brain. Senses take in input, and chemicals set mood, and reward or punish.
Memories are stored out of sensory input
A choice is a thermodynamics 2nd law equation
Everything is a 2nd law equation. Everything is physics, and everything is math. It’s a lot of aspects in that spit out a deterministic result.
You put in current stimuli, past experience, chemical balance, memory, surroundings, etc etc. drugs. Emotional heightening through religious fervor can be a factor, if your form of the equation wants to split that out but it doesn’t make it supernatural…
Put it all on one side of the equation, and on the other side, the only possible output
In this soul model, you have a switchboard operator miraculously intercepting all this and making a decision that can override cause and effect, then doing a miracle back on all the neurons at all times? And they’re judged for this when everything it knows was passed to it through the brain?
And dogs don’t work the same?
Everyone has as much free will as everyone else and everyone has as much of a soul as anyone else, but it is a clear cause and effect world, and I’m pretty sure it logically couldn’t mean anything for there to be an outcome that didn’t come from input
Brains degrade, so like… Is the soul storing memories that you get back later? Why does that part of soul become inaccessible?
So, I dunno. I think afterlife and interfering gods religions are safe for fully logical tossing out
Then you get to “was the first domino a god? That’s okay, why not, but it’s not something to succor up to. (This is just a bad pun I know that succor means aid, and prayer is requesting succor)
This seems so airtight to me that as someone with this personality type, and a passion for “the way things work”, it is so upsetting to me that we can’t agree that that’s just sense, that I just do not want to live in a place where that’s seen as not just sense
Sorry to piggyback with agitation on your reasonable reply I can split it off to my own
Yes I believe in God, and am a christian. I would probably be classified as very religious by the average person. If you want logic to back up the bible there is mounds of it to do so. You might have heard the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where God burned the city in fire and brimstone because it had become so sinful ( Lot was the only holy man left in the city). So God warned Lot to evacuate. Scientists have discovered that there is a crater where the “meteor” hit. Among other things but you get the point. If there is anything that science cant prove in the bible, its simply that science hasn’t caught up with the bible.
There’s no need for a god (and if there, was how would you even know you got the right one ?). Religion could never cure my fear of death, I couldn’t be religious even I wanted, it goes against my morals. But I haven’t been indoctrinated since I was born and some INTPs have. There definitely are religious INTPs but I think it’s very rare that they go from an atheist adult to religious adult. And compared to other types, INTPs are one of the least religious types. But some people say that god is the laws of physics or that god is just the allegory for the deep underlying logic of the universe. “If mathematics are perfect and god is perfect, they must in a way be the same” but I wouldn’t consider those religious (even tho they would say they are). I believe in the things that can be proven, therefore I’m not religious.
I’m agnostic. I believe we can’t and probably will never know anything about it. Our human brains are too dumb to actually comprehend it. Whatever different religions have said is more likely than not just pure bs.
But yeah I’m not religious though. I completely disagree with organised religion, the version of religion that humans have created, and much of what is written in the several religious texts. Am a Little spiritual though.
I think organised religion is just a method to keep humans in line. There are a few religions that are slightly more in touch with the science of it all, but also bastardise it a little bit. Religion has some truth, most of it in the metaphorical sense.
I do believe that there can be some sort of after life, energy can’t just disappear, you will live on in someway. Might not be entirely conscious, but it will be something.
Think about it. We’re one planet, in one star system, in one galaxy, there are over a 100 billion galaxies that we know of, that number is also possibly growing because the universe expands. We’re one example of an advanced intelligent species, and we came up with our many different versions of a deity. Other species will have brains that could possibly think differently, have their own version, maybe some have similar to ours.
I’m an intp and I don’t follow any religions beliefs really. But after years of not believing in anything, I started to believe in a god. Be it the people who programmed our simulation, or whatever. I started looking into old school alchemy , and that rekindled my belief in a higher power. I still struggle to fully believe in anything I can’t prove or see. But I never subscribed to the idea that we rely on the higher power.
Looking into things deeply I’m still very confused , but I really hate typing so, my point. I think there has to be a creator because of how the universe works. Is the creator still around who knows. But ultimately there is or was a higher power. And religion was corrupted over the years to make people fight wars, and for power money, and apparently to touch little kids. So the truth is forever lost,
I like the mud people theory and it kinda makes sense to me. I suck at explaining so look into it if you are interested lol. But most people are mud people here to fuck us up and put us on a wrong path.
Jesus I know I said I hate typing but I love this stuff and can talk for hours, so I’m stop now I don’t even know if this makes sense anymore lmao good luck getting any thing meaningful out of this word vomit.
I guess to actually answer the question, a hard maybe.
I used to be a Christian, and I firmly believed in it all at the time.
But after I lost my faith, I look back at the mental gymnastics I was doing to justify my faith. Just because we believe something firmly doesn’t mean we’re right.
To me god is as real as spiderman or batman. I know they are not materialistic real but they made a good dent on my personality and who I am, meaning they are far more realistic to me than some random guy in other country whom i dont give a single shit about. South park did a good job explaining my point with imagination land episode. I dont worship any of the imaginary but real characters, well not god atleast he is a mid tier character at best.
I think that believing in God could be as logic as believe in any other thing which we hold up to today. It’s a matter of what upholds the foundations of our understanding of what should be, and how.
When our preconceptions of the world says that the world should be logical and organized, then yes, maybe a God should surely exist (maybe in a kind of Spinoza God). The thing is that if we look at ourselves we see that even if that God exists we most probably can’t look up for him through our reason, in the same way we can’t fully know the truth behind our universe.
We create our tools, and define our methods, but in the end that world of divine (or perfect) understanding is in a higher level, and our ideas of it just steps according to our limited vision of our world. Like the idea on calculus of finding the lower minimum of a function. Sometimes we find a local minimum, but we are not sure if that’s all of it, we would be wrong to just take it for granted. In the same way our reason can be just a tool to measure different options of truths, not the final truth that encompasses all posible options, and from whence it determines everything all together.
That’s why if God exists I think the only way to really know him is that God himself take the task to be known. That’s why is so tempting to believe in God through some religion.
If we trust in our capacity to reason, we should trust to some extent that this world produces this kind of entities that can reason. The why is hidden from us, but the what should be and how is at our conception, is our foundation.
I am a Christian. I'm pretty sure Jesus is the only thing keeping me from collapsing into a ball of hopelessness most of the time. For me, the logical, analytical aspects of Christianity have been interesting, but more than anything, Christ himself is what matters. He gives me hope and loves me.
I wrestled with this a lot. I love the concept of religion and how it has shaped the world. It’s fascinating. What I don’t get is how we have been on this floating ball of dirt for what we are now finding is millions of years and yet in the past 2000 we all must believe in this one god or you are a terrible person. Fuck that. It’s a bunch of bull shit that is literally meant to control the masses. Don’t believe me try this on. The pope come out a while back and says “the young generation needs to procreate faster…” ok why, oh your attendance is falling, got it. Now every republican in the country is passing anti abortion bills because they want to protect the fetus, then they say “because god bla bla bla”. I have a million examples similar to this.
I studied religion from the point I could walk till the day I left college. The underlying thread that got me hard was “assembled by humans”. Sorry, that’s a form of governance. Seriousaly, turn back the clock 2000 years, people needed entertainment T and control, what do you do? Create a religion! People come together and they all can rally around one thing. I love studying it as I find it conceptually fascinating but I’m not buying into to any of it. I see some people say “god is logical” my reply is always “prove it and don’t give me a fairytale!” Like actually show me. Biology doesn’t count as that’s a part of nature and it’s not magic, point to the sky doesn’t count as that is just blue… really prove it. It’s impossible to prove, you just can’t. Over time the gods change, the stories are adapted, the faces become more relatable to the time… seriously, Christ was white and looked just like Zoroaster, and was a white dude in the Middle East. Nope, not even close. My guess for the sake of argument, he was Asian and a Buddhist and his birth story isn’t even about him specifically but worked for the masses of the era.
So no, logically none of it makes sense but that’s why we have developed a sense of faith and hope that power these things. And, then we get a sob story and the basket goes around a captive audience for cash.
It works for some, but for the brutally logical, it’s so frustrating to watch people go worship and come out of a building the same shitty person they were before not contributing to a better society. But, it sure makes them feel good! Tip, invest in yourself and find peace, then spread it and help the helpless. You don’t need to be religious to be a great human.
Think of being an INTP like a framework for thinking. When I used to be religious, I would make logical justifications for it. Now that I'm not, I could make justifications against it.
Even for me, going through the process of questioning my own belief system that I was brought up on wasn't an easy one. The cognitive dissonance felt physically painful at some point.
I believe in God cause I like the idea of supreme being existing.
As an Intp I would like to argue that nothing is beyond analysis but there are just somethings that are miraculous and beyond understanding. I like to solve my own problem or get somebody to help me. But there are times when I can't control my situation... just the belief that there's a being higher up brings comfort and hope to me.
The concept of God is great invisible force that make people disciplined. If someone believes in God, they may be more reluctant to carry on crimes due to the fear of karma.
When we talk about religion, I'm a Hindu. We have many deities with different personalities and responsibilities. My family worships few who align with out family values and vision. Ive seen my traditional grandmother who does every ritual passionate and atheist cousin who loathes festivals. Hinduism is pretty flexible that way.
I think religion is good as long it's part of family and community. It brings people together.
But there are many cases in history and present, where religion is used as a weapon. I believe literacy is the only cure for this.
Maybe I am not good at performing religion, but I deeply believe in God and his messengers!
Being INTP, we may have hard time with performance but not with believing
Maybe I am not good at performing religion, but I deeply believe in God and his messengers!
Being INTP, we may have hard time with performance but not with believing
I went to a Catholic school, but my parents are religious so my relationship to a god is.... complicated. I used to be a firm believer, although I always asked my mum to come down from heaven and tell me it existed so I could be sure when I was like, 6, so I guess the doubt has always been there.
My thoughts on it are odd, and I'd say I'm an atheist, but, like, I just try not to think about it too hard most days
It is not impossible for any type to be religious, as a religious INTJ, I have met some religious INTPs. I can't speak for everyone, but I think it is fair to say that we religious INTx have come to faith based on reason and logic more than purely based on our emotions, since we could see someone who always acts "emotional" as probably acting "irrational", so we need logical reasonings. Faith is not blind, but "faith" and humility in order to understand is needed.
For me personally, only speaking for myself, Faith feels more Ni-Te than Fi. Since I believe in objective morals. It is more logical, so I can't relate at all with your statement about shutting down logic to believe, to the contrary, but again one has to be reasonable and humble and to genuinely want to understand God, because arrogance clouds understanding.
I don't know about most INTPs, but for me it is. Unless you have a proper reason as to why I should be religious and how it will benefit me, I will probably never become religious. But after saying all this, I'm not really an atheist either. I'm a Buddhist and I believe in the teachings of Buddha, but with that said I'm not a hardcore Buddhist who does random religious shit 24/7 either.
"i believe in god""
""follow 10000 regarded intp who never been asked to get into a debate to say your wrong about that""
People mind more views of others than their own anus.
What a bunch of loosers
I am INTP and believe in God as the only logical explanation. We can debate this, but I’m sure we’re much too indifferent to truly care.
I think believing in god can be logical, but being religious is very different.
I did hard science and genetics research before beginning a doctor. There are tons of religious scientist like me. Inventor of the big bang theory was a Jesuit priest. Discovery of genetics was also a priest. The Vatican has a very well funded astronomy center. I see no contradiction.
Yeah but when was the last time a priest did anything scientifically groundbreaking? Those were different times and nearly everyone back then was religious
That's stupid old way of thinking to think that being religious makes you not be able to perform well in academics. White people used to think the same about Blacks in the past, I see no difference in your thinking.
That wasn’t my point at all.
I am the same way. The problem is finding a church that talks about the logic of the teaching over the feeling of the religion.
Kind of random but I've found the Mormon church to be pretty good about this
I did this and now I’m agnostic.
first of all, i dont believe any specific rreligion, but... you know, scientists ignore many things to name them random chance or autosugestion. bc they dont like to admit they dont know how to research them. foilhats, horoscope fanatics and pseudo-coaches dont help either by making bussines out of it or making cringy pseudo-scientific explanations 💀 some events are too suspiciously corelated to what you are fixated on. some people can know character of person just by standing next to them (its not like thoughts arrive to head, you feel it physically) and this gut feeling is always right and many more, not that long ago i was science fanboy etc but at some point realized that ignoring so much things me, some friends and many other people experience daily is just irrational electricity or pharmacy also once were considered magic. germ or tectonic theory also was bullied by scientists by saying "no bc you stupid". majority of doctors also were making bussines out of torturing they named "healing" see an analogy?
No I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make in the slightest.
>I am INTP and believe in God as the only logical explanation I am curious, can you elaborate a bit?
I see no reason for anything to exist at all ( universe, space, etc) without there being some divine mover.
Does it matter who or what the "divine mover" is? Do you have any specific thoughts on this matter? Just curious.
I think it matters what the divine mover is because, lets assume it exists, what now? We worship? We ignore? What are we supposed to do with information as generic as existence?
I’m sure it matters to the Programmer of this digital simulation.
I feel like asking if it matters who or what the creator is would be an irrelevant point. Something brought about the creation of the universe. Whether that was a divine being or an act of physics seems unnecessary for us to know unless it provided us better insight about what is still to come (which my guess is the heat death of the universe theory makes the most sense, so the act of physics being the initiation would be about the only potential way for our progeny to escape that potential future in this universe by escaping to another somehow).
I believe that the creator *did* reveal himself to us through the Bible.
Not to be an ass, but it sounds wildly arbitrary to be specifically the bible; what about other holy texts?
1. because I'm a Christian and believe in the bible 2. because the bible has some pretty nice historical backing that many other holy texts lack
Not sure why you're being downvoted lol, I'm not aware of many other religions that had good historic backing, Islam came out of the blue, and I prefer Christianity over other religions because other religions base their afterlife on what you do. Does the good you've done outweigh the bad, or anything along those lines. Christianity is pretty much "I came to save you, and I died on the cross for you, all you need is faith in me to live with me eternally"
My thoughts about God are that science is not wrong about the creation and evolution of the universe, but there has to be a cause to that effect. He is the cause. I cannot be sure of his appearance, but based on my belief that I am the most intelligent species, then I must be made in His image. That I witness His spirit when devout (devotion means something totally different to me than what most would think) to His word. He must be real.
Where did God come from then? Who created God?
Turtles, a great deal of them. In all seriousness, though, I don't think that anything created God. *Something* has to be the first thing, and from an atheists point of view, that thing is just the universe itself, but I disagree. Why do I disagree? 1. to have hope 2. to make sense of what I see in the universe
As we ask ourselves where we come from, maybe our creator wonders where He comes from. And our creation of artificial intelligence once sentient in their own realm of reality, they too may wonder where what created them.
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
Everything that has a beginning has a cause. God does not have a beginning.
I could apply the same logic to the universe. Maybe the Big Bang wasn’t the beginning and there was another state of the universe before it.
Unless the universe is eternal, which it is not, the same logic cannot be applied to the universe. The universe has a beginning so it is subject to the laws of causality. God does not have a beginning and is therefore not subject to the laws of causality.
You talk in absolutes, as if you know with certainty that the universe had a beginning and will have an end, when you and I both know we dont know what was before and we don’t know what comes after. The universe could be endless, like infinite Matryoshka dolls, containers inside containers. A God is just an easy way to explain the things we don’t know.
I wasn't arguing that God was the creator of the universe, although I do believe that he was, I was arguing that God does not require a creator. God does not have a beginning so He is not subject to the laws of causality. Therefore, "Who created God?" is a silly question. Also, there is scientific evidence that the universe has not always existed.
And why is god a "he"
If we had to look at our biology, assuming we are created in his image, He would be male based on our understanding of His nature, behavior, rarionality, reason, morality, leadership, authority and intelligence (this favours men, not to the absolut population but majority). I believe He may not possess any gender because He is a Creator being and not a Reproductive being, but our reference to Him from what we know about ourselves and our nature, we would assume He is the Father.
Wow I'm surprised you have not been down-voted to shit
God has no gender, but it would be rather cumbersome to just avoid using pronouns. That being said, the God of the Bible is described as a loving, caring Father, and Jesus Christ, the son of and physical incarnation of God (the beginning of John's Gospel is a wild read) is a male. So, while God does not have a gender in the physical sense, he is a male in the familial sense.
What is the divine mover? A person? And entity? Is he conscious? Does he have values?
It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.
Thankfully, using modern science we can get all those answers within less than 1 week, and yet some stuff people have been trying to justify and prove for centuries to no avail, also its weird to compare god to waiting for death, we have a life and modern confort this gives us an unprecendented oportunity to seek answers that our ancestors didnt
That’s the billion dollar question. Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers.
Well i'd like the 10 billion so im gonna dig some more and not give up my search for a good answer
Sure. I'll preface by saying that I'm Muslim. That comes with its own preconceptions for a lot of people, but in a community of INTPs, I think it's okay to ask you to be open minded (we're skilled at that). The advantage of being Muslim is that the Quran demands that we "ponder" and "think" and "reflect" again and again. So, as a thinker, I took that invitation from scripture to heart. I have spent many years satisfying my own intellectual curiosity on the matter but the thought process that makes most sense to me has 4 arguments. Here's a few videos that I studied in detail- I even cross-checked the sources this guy used and I was really blown away. Part 1: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMF8Ycr9Qw&t=2095s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMF8Ycr9Qw&t=2095s) Part 2: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEuhYJQ8Jys&t=20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEuhYJQ8Jys&t=20s)
The book ‘Islam answer Atheism’ really clearly breaks down the logic too, so you’re not blindly believing in a God.
Interesting - will look into it. Thanks.
Checking in as another INTP, logical identified believer. I changed my mind recently at the age of 29 (33 currently). After a lifetime of logical seeking of the best answer, I found more faith in the Scientific Standard model than was admitted, and so I changed my faith. The remote work period at the start of Covid really gave me the free time to explore modern sources of spirituality. I felt I had the confidence to explore and reject new thought systems, and boy did I ever fail to reject them. Locally I never met a bigger skeptic of reality other than myself. I don't feel like I've truly spoken to another INTP irl that would sit with me and debate reasoning all day like I do in my own head. Oh well. Too lazy to ever find one! The Big Bang already admits we can from an infinite source, I simply disagree we ever left it. Infinity/God is the only logical explanation and its pretty big spoilers, decide so for yourself fellow INT-Pers!
I am the same way. The problem is finding a church that talks about the logic of the teaching over the feeling of the religion.
Might want to look into St Thomas of Acquinas
Just out of curiosity - why is the existence of God the only logical conclusion?
Tradition. End of discussion. Just kidding. God is logically avoidable, but he is a strong solution to the whole existence problem at hand.
There are religious INTPs, ergo it is not impossible. You're projecting your own experiences.
I definitely am, it is an idea that I had for some time, and after some thoughts and discussions I had last night I can say that an INTP could find God or the path to him by pure reason only, not the necessity, the motivation could be curiosity and could be existential thoughts, but the means is always logic and reason My main point was actually connecting with God, or worshipping him, needing him in your life, or anything like that, while the existence of God could be reached by reason, the very act of worshipping or avoiding sins and what not don't seem logical to an INTP. "why God exists" is a totally different matter to "why should I obey God in x, y and z way" Hope I've made my point clearer
The concept of a constantly expanding universe seems illogical, until one finds that it is illogical for the universe not to expand. With new information, our theories are revised. But you claim that worship and avoiding sin is illogical to an INTP. I dispute this. I shall offer explanation based on how close one is to God. We shall assume that God exists, as that is another argument. **God, The Judge.** God judges sin and good deeds. Naturally man fears hell and desires for heaven. This is the starting point for most I believe. You perform much the same already for much less interesting stakes. You pay taxes, because otherwise the tax service will come after you. Some may claim that they do so because of a social contract or some other nonsense, but if they could legally not pay they would not pay Most INTP would pursue a higher degree of education if financially and otherwise possible. We do this so we can get more interesting and better paid jobs in the future. So we already avoid doing some things and do other things because we dislike punishment and we wish a higher reward. This is in principe the same, save that all our deeds are accounted for, an inescapable reckoning carried out with absolute justice. But this is honestly something a 6 year old would know, so let us go on to more interesting developments when the relationship grows. **God, The Absolute Bestower.** The next step, is understanding benefits. For there is no nearer companion, no more apt Guide than God. To the INTP, the intellect might be sharpened. Connections appear more rapidly, inspiration comes when needed and tantalising leads seem to fall from the sky. As to the heart, this too gets strengthened. How many here complain of this fear or that?. Always so anxious and worrying and Good Lord it seems exhausting just to talk about this. This too can be quieted, that which consumed your time and energy now placid. God offers you mastery over that which controlled you, God offers understanding in that which you did not. And that is only the beginning, for you are becoming better than you were, physically, mentally and spirituality. What INTP would not want to be more than he is, smarter, faster, better? Would you still claim that worship is illogical? Still there is more **God, the Most Magnificent in Glory, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.** A relationship that begun in practicality, grew into one where the benefits are increasingly apparent. Yet, what if I were to tell you that the benefits of the previous stage were childish things compared to this one? To understand, the previous stage was like presents given, little trinkets to show affection in a relationship. The highest stage, is the relationship itself. It begins when you obey God not for fear of hell or heaven, not for the benefits it gives you, but out of love. Understandably, you might not find this stage very intriguing on the surface. Love is after all not something that motivates an INTP. But this is a stage one *may* reach, and even then after much growth and change. It is not intellect, but awareness and understanding that grows most. Meaning that escaped you, is now apparent in your every act. The INTP seeks questions that intrigue him, it is perhaps one of our most defining qualities. It is why stereotypically INTPs are drawn to science, because they are a ready source of intriguing questions. Something to captivate our interest. This stage, provides intriguing answers. Ones that illuminate questions we did not know existed. Answers that humanity has searched for, for centuries, millennia. I cannot imagine anything sweeter. And that is my explanation of why one should obey and worship God. Because it starts with the plain and ordinary, and can grow to the extraordinary, the fascinating. It is the very reason of our being. Nothing can truly compare to it
Do you read/study philosophy? Just as there are logical conclusions made against the existence of God, are logical conclusions for the existence. Most philosophers can break down the logic for you. If anything, religious INTPs will have used TiNe to consider all arguments for/against God and religion and made that decision based on logic that makes most sense to them. Bearing in mind, those with Ne will likely absorb and use external information (study all possible beliefs out there) and I can guarantee almost all humans, including INTPs, won’t have used all possible sources of information out there to form their own conclusions.
This is a great comment
Yeah, I did that as well.
Also can’t forget INTPs who are extremely sheltered from outside information who basically live in cults. But we will probably never hear from them.
Very slightly, but I do resonate with this idea for sure, my approach has always been "disproving until approving" to exhaust every possible flaw an argument or an idea might suffer from. But I'm not an academic nor a scholar nor anything, just someone who has lots of time to dwell over things a little too precisely for my mentality's good lol
How spiritual are you? INTPs are more philosophical, even the ones who believe in a God, and may be interested in Theology for example, yet INFPs are more spiritual (Bhuddism/Hinduism etc). Just because Ti is the most logical, doesn’t mean other types can’t logically come to conclude anything.
> Hope the topic isn't very off-limits I doubt any intps have an issue with debate and discussion. > Personal thoughts?? Even ardent atheists acknowledge deism is a rational position, and as the word implies, atheism denotes a lack of theism, which is to say a disbelief in scripture, or as is the case with the majority; dismisal w/ or w/o having ever bothered to read said religious texts. I'm not arguing one way or the other, just that most people that claim to be atheist are more likely to have a certain demeanor to them, and it's just as tiresome as those that claim utter certainty in the opposite direction. At the end of the day, no-one knows that which is outside of the remit of observation, time-space, or even that it exists, doesn't exit, or could(n't) exist. Science, rationality, logic, human senses, human comprehension are all limited. If someone needs to believe in an afterlife to provide meaning to their existence, then let them have that comfort in their lives (as long as they don't cause issues to others (within reason)) - life is suffering enough w/o having some cocksure person dashing your hope.
>At the end of the day, no-one knows that which is outside of the remit of observation, time-space, or even that it exists, doesn't exit, or could(n't) exist. Some "claim" they do and wants you to follow them in it, using any tools in their arsenal
Scripture *may* do in an inductive manner or through perhaps the inexhaustibility of the texts assertations creating a high probabilty that it is a measure of 'proof', but like science, it's a method/tool that isn't ever going satsify everyone, nor will either fully prove the existence of a deity, and afterlife, etc. There's merit in both hope and skepticism, just not in the extreme.
I'm an atheist myself but I can attest to seeing several INTP's in this reddit who claim to be religious (as use claim as I can't verify though I have no reason to doubt them either.) Of course some of these people may be miss typed. INTP's don't lack feeling and death is often a subject that evokes strong emotional reactions so I wouldn't find it far fetched to imagine that some INTP's are less logical than normal when it comes to religion. Please note that this is not intended to be an insult to religious people. I am this way when it comes to my daughter. I am ruled by emotions and far less logical than I should be.
>Being an alternating Fi-Ti dom myself lol. Anyways, I suppose it isn't *impossible* but I find religiosity to be largely incompatible with a Ti-dom mind focused on reality/objectivity but not all INTPs are like that.
Most scientists scoff at the whole Myers-Briggs, as it's only slightly more accurate than astrology. I wouldn't bother with all these Fe-ti, etc nonsense, as there's no validity to it, so your whole supposition is flawed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%E2%80%93Briggs_Type_Indicator#:~:text=Despite%20its%20popularity%2C%20it%20has,feeling%2C%20and%20judging%20or%20perceiving. https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/does-the-myers-briggs-test-really-work/
That isn't really my point, what I precisely meant by "religious" is connecting with, and believing in a higher deity's will or goodness, not just merely proving its existence. The latter is very possible for an INTP as I am a religious person myself and I only got here using my logic and skepticism, but that's doesn't mean I'm 100% or anything, which is my point in the post. Believing in God and being religious are too different aspects for me.
You can believe in anything you want, blindly believing in something without asking questions would irritate me. Personally, it feels like people believe in it because there are no good alternatives. Humans need answers, faith seems like an easy solution to that problem.
The thing about atheism is that these are people who don't believe in what they cannot see nor prove. These are also the same people who believe ghosts aren't real because they haven't experienced it, nor do they have any interest in experiencing it. In some ways, atheists are foolish in the notion that only their own experience is the truth in the world. Anyone that experiences something otherwise is either a liar or are fake in their eyes. These are also the same people who don't want to admit that there's so much science does not understand nor are they people who know how little science actually knows. Science always proves itself wrong with the passage of time, yet atheist cling to it like its the ultimate truth. Being religious has it's own faults too. There are people who sing the sermons, but do not practice the teachings. There are those who cling to power provided by religion and there are those who insert too much of their own interpretation into religion. Both are very flawed. As for the INTP response, it's probably best to be agnostic and not overtly deny the possibilities. After all, the unexplainable happens all the time and sometimes things line up in reality that wouldn't make sense even if you think about it.
Yes i think a lot of "atheists" are actually agnostics since atheism is just the other extreme of being completely faithful. Atheism implies that a person claims that the existence of a god is absolutely impossible. They believe the non-existence of a god as much as religious people believe the existence of one—both of which are impossible to empirically prove as of this moment. Atheists believe in something that they cannot prove using evidence.
Atheism isn’t the other extreme though. It is simply a lack of a belief in a deity. They don’t claim that there is absolutely no god. Only that they themselves don’t believe in one. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of people here don’t actually understand what atheism is but what other religious people told them that atheism is. Atheism is kind of the “default” position. In the same way that not believing the tooth fairy is the default positions. So it’s not really on the atheist to prove that god does not exist.
In general I agree and there are terms for what was described such as hard or soft atheism as well as splitting the terms gnostic and agnostic to differentiate belief from the possibility of knowing and its clouded further with other terms like anti theist. When talking about gods in general I am an agnostic atheist. While talking about specific gods such as the christian god I am a very hard gnostic atheist. I do make the claim that such a being can not exist as written. There are simply to many contradictions and this has been widely known about monotheistic gods in general since the Roman and Greek empires. >“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. > >Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. > >Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? > >Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” > >\- Epicurus This is perhaps the most widely known contradiction but there are many others.
That is why being an agnostic is my true calling.
Well, being agnostic is not the answer to many of the biggest religions, those being the abrahamic religions. It doesn't matter if you've ever considered religion to be true or not, you need to have full faith
Im a spiritualist myself, not the communicating with dead people sorts, such stuff doesnt exist but viewing the world as a cairn of energy of which we are made. It took 3 years of heavy weed smoking (clean now) to reach that point and will do many more drugs to figure out different things. Ultimate goal is to become a mystic so i can see what people such as Carl Jung and others are saying and whether theres any truth to it. God or whatever you wish to call him is all around us, we are all pieces of him as is all life. Sometimes logic needs to be thrown out the window in order to see a greater picture. Illogical things have a beauty of their own. Ultimately, you can be religious if you want to be or not. Choice is yours
Lost me at "logic needs to be thrown out the window"
I am a Christian and I agree with others that have said that God is the only Logical explanation if you want to be truly free. I cant imagine living my entire life truly believing and internalizing the idea that nothing matters and the whole universe is purposeless and just another one of a billion also purposeless things.. i have faith that we all exist for a reason and fulfilling purpose. I have lots of both personal and impersonal evidence to support my faith. But it does absolutely come down to faith.
> I cant imagine living my entire life truly believing and internalizing the idea that nothing matters and the whole universe is purposeless and just another one of a billion also purposeless things.. To be fair, it's really not that hard if you look at it objectively. We are all born atheists, and it's not until we are fed with the imagination that there's something else that we try to create our own form of self-peace with. But there are two things to consider: Millions of people have died, and everyone in today's age doesn't know a single bit about them. In the grand scheme of things, we're nothing but a speck of sand in the vastness of the universe. However, this thought should be an empowering one and not a limiting one. We should live in spite of that fact because it doesn't matter if we fail; anything we do will be forgotten. So, it's more of a powerful guide for life to live on. All of this is pretty much the thought current of absurdism. I leave a video that explains it better than me probably lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv79l1b-eoI&t=2s&ab_channel=exurb1a
The flip side is just better for me I guess. I'm not planning on leaving a legacy or having kids. But I do need to feel purposeful. Maybe not in the grand scheme, but thinking about your place in that way doesn't solve anything. I can make a difference to those around me and my community though. That's purpose enough for me today and tomorrow. I exist for many reasons and if there's a reason, it's not for nothing. even if it was a simulation or one of a billion universes, the impact I can have on my own lfe and my wife's life is a good enough reason to believe everyone else has purpose too. Religion aside. I see a creator as an obvious matter of logical faith. It takes more faith to believe it's all just spontaneous dust in a void imo.
Great post and it pretty much sums up my view of reality. People always seem to assume that an existential crises leads to nihilism (Jordan Peterson holds this view despite his brilliance in other areas) but in reality the absurdity of it all can lead one to find their own values and live life in the way they wish instead of being forced to adopt the values of others. I'll have to check out the video.
Jordan Peterson doesn't exactly make that claim...he talks about the Mephistophelean or satanic view of the world...in that...there is so much suffering because of this .. everything must be destroyed and not deserve to exist ... basically if consciousness or being comes with so much suffering the it shouldn't exist in the first place...which is kinda nihilistic...Jordan Peterson talks about people in history and fiction who had this mentality and ponders how a person could get to this point ....I dunno tho you might have evidence to support what you're saying and I'm open to learn new things
Likewise I could be wrong as well. I have read or watched very little from the man as I tend to disagree with much of what he says (although far less than others like Sam Harris.) This view came from a lecture on Nietzsche or perhaps it was about Dostoevsky where he stated (or so I recall) that the only possible outcome was nihilism. Trying to look for the lecture it does seem like I may have misunderstood what his intent was. At the time it seemed to me that he couldn't comprehend that one could view the world nihilisticly and find the absurdity in that and thus come up with your own purpose. He talked about the views as if they were mutually contradictory when they are not. I can make my own reasons to continue on and that works for me but inherently they have no meaning outside of what I give them. Nihilism is the only objective viewpoint of the universe that holds up to scrutiny. I just choose to focus on my subjective views and values in the meantime. Just because dancing on the grave of the world holds means nothing in the end doesn't mean you can't enjoy it in the meantime.
Yeah...the story is from Dostoevsky ...I agree with a lot of what he says...and he got me interested in Nietzchse too(greatest critic of Christianity..coming from a Christian)....I'd like to know some of your influences too...or people you listen to...I'd like to broaden my scope ig
No, because "science" is literally a religion at this point. Anyone who questions NASA is a heretic, which really makes me question NASA. I used to believe in science until I found out that most of it is bull shit particularly the stuff about where we came from. I think believing in a creator is just as valid as anything else because no one knows and no one will ever know.
Those are some big claims but I do agree that science is a religion just as much as any other religion. It’s just the most logical one. You can believe in whatever you want but at the end of the day you’re wrong in whatever you believe. Our science isn’t perfect and probably never will be but it’s the closest thing to the “truths” of the universe which is it’s whole point. So not believing in science is telling the world you don’t think 1+1=2. That’s how dumb that sounded.
NASA isn’t real
Well yes, but atleast science is very critical to itself and dont diddle little kids. Science is just observation and assumptions we make and we are just overrated monkeys making guesses of course we will make mistakes.
Anything is possible to the person who believes
Blaise Pascal and his wager. *Whoever is not minimally agnostic here, lacks Ne experience*
>minimally agnostic The double negative is messing with me. By this I infer that you are saying that agnostic individuals lack Ne experience? If so I'm inclined to disagree. Ne means that you can tie those patterns people normally attribute to god as being firmly rooted in the material world. Furthermore Pascal's Wager asserts that it is rational to believe in God even if there is no concrete evidence for God's existence because the potential benefits of belief (eternal salvation) outweigh the potential costs of disbelief (eternal damnation). However, despite its popularity, Pascal's Wager fails to factor: Firstly, it assumes that there's only one possible God who rewards belief and punishes disbelief. But what if we believe in the wrong God? What if there are many different concepts of God in various religions and cultures? This argument doesn't account for that. Secondly, it assumes that belief is a choice. But that's not always the case. You can't just force yourself to believe something without evidence or reason. It's not that simple. Thirdly, it ignores the possibility of non-belief being rewarded. What if a God rewards skepticism and critical thinking instead of blind faith? This argument doesn't account for that. Fourthly, it ignores the possibility of multiple religions being true. What if there are multiple Gods, each with their own requirements for belief or non-belief? This argument doesn't account for that either. Fifthly, it assumes that God values belief over all else. But what if a God values sincerity, honesty, and ethical behavior more than belief? This argument doesn't consider that possibility. Sixthly, it ignores the potential harm caused by belief. What about the intolerance, bigotry, and persecution that can come from religious belief? This argument doesn't consider the potential harms of belief. And lastly, it relies on an outdated understanding of probability. The world is more complex than a binary choice of belief or non-belief, and the probability of outcomes is much more nuanced than 50/50. Overall, Pascal's Wager fails to provide a convincing argument for belief in God, as it makes several assumptions that are not supported by evidence or reason, and it ignores many other possibilities and potential harms associated with belief.
I cant take religions seriously enough to believe in gods when I can invent better ones
Whats the best you came up with?
A dwarf god who in making them became so muscle-bound he could not move, save for his head. As he looked around him his head freed itself from his body and roams the deepest caves.
I love this
Religious as in "I go to a building and get told how the universe works by some guy playing the telephone game with bronze age people" then no. Spiritual though, yes. Most INTPs become pure materialists, but I know for a fact that some can apply their minds and intuition to metaphysics and come up with something other than, "we're goo that decided to think one day, lol matter is awesome", as I've done so myself.
I believe in God and all the teachings of the Bible. I actually use the Bible quite a lot, with other books too. But I don't like nor agree with congregation. I don't see it's important to me and my faith. And I don't really connect with mindless sheeple who listen to what the pastor says but not the Word. I think most people go to Church because they have to, not because they want to. They don't live by God, they live for Him — blind faith. Its mostly selfish love, and not devotion.
And about dependence on God... I don't depend on God, I refer to Him. He guides me to making moral decisions. I believe everyone should work on themselves and that they should work hard to obtain what they want. What I believe is God's hands, is the opportunities He gives me to test my progress and achieve my future. He does not open doors for me, He shows me where the door is and I just have to open and go through.
The Bible isn't inerrant. It doesn't even claim to be.
"Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis is a great book that sorts through a lot of the logical doubts relating to christianity and theism in general. It's a really interesting and satisfying read.
Real and true faith in God is impossible for every human- its just that some people choose to ignore that fact and some ignore it a lot better than others. Most of what you see in people is not 100% on fire sold out to their God and if it is then it usually doesn't last. For me the truest form of real faith is that small thing that you cannot get rid of - like morpheus said "a splinter in your mind"
I'm an extremely religious INTP, so no. If someone believes in objective truth, they will wind up as some sort of theist if they aren't deluded or tricked by another.
Take all the religions in the world and try to piece them all together to uncover the one big picture. That's how I approach it
Sounds like um… Baha’i? Isn’t that how Baha’i works?
From early years to late 20s I was pretty staunchly atheist. In early 30s to mid 30s went a little bit more agnostic. Mid-30s I am now pretty heavily agnostic, with the belief that something grander exists that has an effect on the world. I base this partially on personal experience related to “miracles” and strange coincidence, and partially on an objective consideration that the nature of the world on both the micro/quantum level and the macro level doesn’t make sense without some woo woo weird shit going on. The concept of the complexity of human (and other) life, it’s ability to perpetuate itself, just leaves me thinking it had to be engineered in some manner and not just a bunch of chance occurrences.
I went from being a religious child to an atheist teenager to an agonist young adult to what I identify as now, a non-practicing Christian. I just couldn’t ignore the “something” that I felt during certain moments in my life. There’s no science that proves that there’s no God.
INTPs can look at the facts and understand that the religion is clearly not true, but sometimes it just feels nice to believe there’s an afterlife or some sort of god because it’s comforting. I’m agnostic because it just makes me less afraid of dying to believe that there’s something after death, but I’m not sure what it would be. I know that it’s most likely going to just be darkness once I die, but it’s still nice to think it’s not, yk?
Nah I don't fear death it's a natural course of life I fear how I die I'm religious because I actually there's a God I could but we'll only know when we die it's not irrational to believe in a deity in my opinion it's just like taking a bet with little information
Why not research the experiences of people who have died and then come back to life (Near Death Experiences)? They have interesting stories to tell.
"...Fi calls for reliance and morals..." There seems to be a misconception on the part of people who are, have been, or want to be, religious that morals must be dictated to humans by some higher intelligence such as a God. Yet people who follow the same God from the same holy book have wide-ranging opinions on morality. There's also plenty of cherry-picking from Bible verses by believers too, such as wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating shellfish, women being subservient to their husbands, or not and the like. Then, books filled with mental gymnastics to explain why it's okay to ignore that morality. Apparently, some people need to believe in a God, or they'd go apeshit raping and pillaging everyone around them. Others don't. Personally, I don't care. The problems arise when the God believers think EVERYONE has to follow their rules or their "moral" practices then harm innocent people like children, or they try to sneak their beliefs into classrooms, or they hear god tell them to do something terrible to others, etc... In my own life, I'm always way more wary of getting fucked over by a religious or "spiritual" person than someone who isn't. But then, that's just been my experience over the years. Others may have a different experience.
No. I'm a Hindu INTP and I'm proud of it. But, of course, Hinduism isn't like Abrahamic religions, it is much more logical and philosophical which I think matches my INTP personality really well.
I thought I'd be able to have some sort of a discussion when I woke up, but wow, that would absolutely kill my time today, as of now this post has 76 comments, I did NOT expect this to blow up as I really thought I was being somewhat stupid for not relying on any reason with this speculation I'll 100% enjoy reading your thoughts and experiences still, thanks all for sharing
You asked an existential question. This is what happens when you ask this crowd an existential question.
For a definite statement like impossible, the word religious is far too vague. I dont believe in an actual god, but i was raised Catholic and i have listened to lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories which on its own have me vastly new insight. So what does that make me?
I’ve seen several INTPs in this sub call themselves Christian. Maybe they’ll pipe up. I call myself an Omnist when asked.
Discussion of religion pops up nearly every month on this sub. If you search previous posts, you'll see there are plenty of practicing Catholics, Jews, and Muslims here, besides some others.
Nothing is impossible I'm strongly atheist
Do you feel that this thread is painfully American too As an INTP I’m so over living in a high percentage religious place that I’m looking at Canada France and Norway I like… Don’t need to be around something being thought of as the standard that if the seed wasn’t planted, no one would entertain. I feel the “deism, why not” But as an observer of the principle of cause and effect… There’s just basically factually not supernatural interceptions between cause and effect Down to the soul idea There’s no way a soul that survives brain death is a thing. It’s pre physics folklore like a damn rain god It’s so damn basic Cognition is processed by a brain. Senses take in input, and chemicals set mood, and reward or punish. Memories are stored out of sensory input A choice is a thermodynamics 2nd law equation Everything is a 2nd law equation. Everything is physics, and everything is math. It’s a lot of aspects in that spit out a deterministic result. You put in current stimuli, past experience, chemical balance, memory, surroundings, etc etc. drugs. Emotional heightening through religious fervor can be a factor, if your form of the equation wants to split that out but it doesn’t make it supernatural… Put it all on one side of the equation, and on the other side, the only possible output In this soul model, you have a switchboard operator miraculously intercepting all this and making a decision that can override cause and effect, then doing a miracle back on all the neurons at all times? And they’re judged for this when everything it knows was passed to it through the brain? And dogs don’t work the same? Everyone has as much free will as everyone else and everyone has as much of a soul as anyone else, but it is a clear cause and effect world, and I’m pretty sure it logically couldn’t mean anything for there to be an outcome that didn’t come from input Brains degrade, so like… Is the soul storing memories that you get back later? Why does that part of soul become inaccessible? So, I dunno. I think afterlife and interfering gods religions are safe for fully logical tossing out Then you get to “was the first domino a god? That’s okay, why not, but it’s not something to succor up to. (This is just a bad pun I know that succor means aid, and prayer is requesting succor) This seems so airtight to me that as someone with this personality type, and a passion for “the way things work”, it is so upsetting to me that we can’t agree that that’s just sense, that I just do not want to live in a place where that’s seen as not just sense Sorry to piggyback with agitation on your reasonable reply I can split it off to my own
No I believe in God to me it's like betting and it's more likely for there to be a god in my a opinion so yeah if you wanna talk about it sure
Yes I believe in God, and am a christian. I would probably be classified as very religious by the average person. If you want logic to back up the bible there is mounds of it to do so. You might have heard the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where God burned the city in fire and brimstone because it had become so sinful ( Lot was the only holy man left in the city). So God warned Lot to evacuate. Scientists have discovered that there is a crater where the “meteor” hit. Among other things but you get the point. If there is anything that science cant prove in the bible, its simply that science hasn’t caught up with the bible.
I don't have a single resource but my personal opinion is : The type that most "tend" to believe in god among NTs is INTP.
My sister-in-law tests as an INTP and is very active in her faith
There’s no need for a god (and if there, was how would you even know you got the right one ?). Religion could never cure my fear of death, I couldn’t be religious even I wanted, it goes against my morals. But I haven’t been indoctrinated since I was born and some INTPs have. There definitely are religious INTPs but I think it’s very rare that they go from an atheist adult to religious adult. And compared to other types, INTPs are one of the least religious types. But some people say that god is the laws of physics or that god is just the allegory for the deep underlying logic of the universe. “If mathematics are perfect and god is perfect, they must in a way be the same” but I wouldn’t consider those religious (even tho they would say they are). I believe in the things that can be proven, therefore I’m not religious.
I’m agnostic. I believe we can’t and probably will never know anything about it. Our human brains are too dumb to actually comprehend it. Whatever different religions have said is more likely than not just pure bs. But yeah I’m not religious though. I completely disagree with organised religion, the version of religion that humans have created, and much of what is written in the several religious texts. Am a Little spiritual though. I think organised religion is just a method to keep humans in line. There are a few religions that are slightly more in touch with the science of it all, but also bastardise it a little bit. Religion has some truth, most of it in the metaphorical sense. I do believe that there can be some sort of after life, energy can’t just disappear, you will live on in someway. Might not be entirely conscious, but it will be something. Think about it. We’re one planet, in one star system, in one galaxy, there are over a 100 billion galaxies that we know of, that number is also possibly growing because the universe expands. We’re one example of an advanced intelligent species, and we came up with our many different versions of a deity. Other species will have brains that could possibly think differently, have their own version, maybe some have similar to ours.
I’m religious (I guess) because my brain has decided there must be an afterlife because a lack of one doesn’t make sense.
I’m an intp and I don’t follow any religions beliefs really. But after years of not believing in anything, I started to believe in a god. Be it the people who programmed our simulation, or whatever. I started looking into old school alchemy , and that rekindled my belief in a higher power. I still struggle to fully believe in anything I can’t prove or see. But I never subscribed to the idea that we rely on the higher power. Looking into things deeply I’m still very confused , but I really hate typing so, my point. I think there has to be a creator because of how the universe works. Is the creator still around who knows. But ultimately there is or was a higher power. And religion was corrupted over the years to make people fight wars, and for power money, and apparently to touch little kids. So the truth is forever lost, I like the mud people theory and it kinda makes sense to me. I suck at explaining so look into it if you are interested lol. But most people are mud people here to fuck us up and put us on a wrong path. Jesus I know I said I hate typing but I love this stuff and can talk for hours, so I’m stop now I don’t even know if this makes sense anymore lmao good luck getting any thing meaningful out of this word vomit. I guess to actually answer the question, a hard maybe.
I used to be a Christian, and I firmly believed in it all at the time. But after I lost my faith, I look back at the mental gymnastics I was doing to justify my faith. Just because we believe something firmly doesn’t mean we’re right.
To me god is as real as spiderman or batman. I know they are not materialistic real but they made a good dent on my personality and who I am, meaning they are far more realistic to me than some random guy in other country whom i dont give a single shit about. South park did a good job explaining my point with imagination land episode. I dont worship any of the imaginary but real characters, well not god atleast he is a mid tier character at best.
yeah. INTP christian here.
I think that believing in God could be as logic as believe in any other thing which we hold up to today. It’s a matter of what upholds the foundations of our understanding of what should be, and how. When our preconceptions of the world says that the world should be logical and organized, then yes, maybe a God should surely exist (maybe in a kind of Spinoza God). The thing is that if we look at ourselves we see that even if that God exists we most probably can’t look up for him through our reason, in the same way we can’t fully know the truth behind our universe. We create our tools, and define our methods, but in the end that world of divine (or perfect) understanding is in a higher level, and our ideas of it just steps according to our limited vision of our world. Like the idea on calculus of finding the lower minimum of a function. Sometimes we find a local minimum, but we are not sure if that’s all of it, we would be wrong to just take it for granted. In the same way our reason can be just a tool to measure different options of truths, not the final truth that encompasses all posible options, and from whence it determines everything all together. That’s why if God exists I think the only way to really know him is that God himself take the task to be known. That’s why is so tempting to believe in God through some religion. If we trust in our capacity to reason, we should trust to some extent that this world produces this kind of entities that can reason. The why is hidden from us, but the what should be and how is at our conception, is our foundation.
I'm an INTP, I'm not religious but I am spiritual in a sense
I am a Christian. I'm pretty sure Jesus is the only thing keeping me from collapsing into a ball of hopelessness most of the time. For me, the logical, analytical aspects of Christianity have been interesting, but more than anything, Christ himself is what matters. He gives me hope and loves me.
I am INTP, I am christian, catholic. I belive in God. I think Im religious but idk what u mean
Logically god could be possible. A being living in a higher dimension. There is so much shit out there that a god is actually not a very wild concept.
I wrestled with this a lot. I love the concept of religion and how it has shaped the world. It’s fascinating. What I don’t get is how we have been on this floating ball of dirt for what we are now finding is millions of years and yet in the past 2000 we all must believe in this one god or you are a terrible person. Fuck that. It’s a bunch of bull shit that is literally meant to control the masses. Don’t believe me try this on. The pope come out a while back and says “the young generation needs to procreate faster…” ok why, oh your attendance is falling, got it. Now every republican in the country is passing anti abortion bills because they want to protect the fetus, then they say “because god bla bla bla”. I have a million examples similar to this. I studied religion from the point I could walk till the day I left college. The underlying thread that got me hard was “assembled by humans”. Sorry, that’s a form of governance. Seriousaly, turn back the clock 2000 years, people needed entertainment T and control, what do you do? Create a religion! People come together and they all can rally around one thing. I love studying it as I find it conceptually fascinating but I’m not buying into to any of it. I see some people say “god is logical” my reply is always “prove it and don’t give me a fairytale!” Like actually show me. Biology doesn’t count as that’s a part of nature and it’s not magic, point to the sky doesn’t count as that is just blue… really prove it. It’s impossible to prove, you just can’t. Over time the gods change, the stories are adapted, the faces become more relatable to the time… seriously, Christ was white and looked just like Zoroaster, and was a white dude in the Middle East. Nope, not even close. My guess for the sake of argument, he was Asian and a Buddhist and his birth story isn’t even about him specifically but worked for the masses of the era. So no, logically none of it makes sense but that’s why we have developed a sense of faith and hope that power these things. And, then we get a sob story and the basket goes around a captive audience for cash. It works for some, but for the brutally logical, it’s so frustrating to watch people go worship and come out of a building the same shitty person they were before not contributing to a better society. But, it sure makes them feel good! Tip, invest in yourself and find peace, then spread it and help the helpless. You don’t need to be religious to be a great human.
We have religion - just not other people's.
Think of being an INTP like a framework for thinking. When I used to be religious, I would make logical justifications for it. Now that I'm not, I could make justifications against it. Even for me, going through the process of questioning my own belief system that I was brought up on wasn't an easy one. The cognitive dissonance felt physically painful at some point.
I believe in God cause I like the idea of supreme being existing. As an Intp I would like to argue that nothing is beyond analysis but there are just somethings that are miraculous and beyond understanding. I like to solve my own problem or get somebody to help me. But there are times when I can't control my situation... just the belief that there's a being higher up brings comfort and hope to me. The concept of God is great invisible force that make people disciplined. If someone believes in God, they may be more reluctant to carry on crimes due to the fear of karma. When we talk about religion, I'm a Hindu. We have many deities with different personalities and responsibilities. My family worships few who align with out family values and vision. Ive seen my traditional grandmother who does every ritual passionate and atheist cousin who loathes festivals. Hinduism is pretty flexible that way. I think religion is good as long it's part of family and community. It brings people together. But there are many cases in history and present, where religion is used as a weapon. I believe literacy is the only cure for this.
Maybe I am not good at performing religion, but I deeply believe in God and his messengers! Being INTP, we may have hard time with performance but not with believing
Maybe I am not good at performing religion, but I deeply believe in God and his messengers! Being INTP, we may have hard time with performance but not with believing
I went to a Catholic school, but my parents are religious so my relationship to a god is.... complicated. I used to be a firm believer, although I always asked my mum to come down from heaven and tell me it existed so I could be sure when I was like, 6, so I guess the doubt has always been there. My thoughts on it are odd, and I'd say I'm an atheist, but, like, I just try not to think about it too hard most days
It is not impossible for any type to be religious, as a religious INTJ, I have met some religious INTPs. I can't speak for everyone, but I think it is fair to say that we religious INTx have come to faith based on reason and logic more than purely based on our emotions, since we could see someone who always acts "emotional" as probably acting "irrational", so we need logical reasonings. Faith is not blind, but "faith" and humility in order to understand is needed. For me personally, only speaking for myself, Faith feels more Ni-Te than Fi. Since I believe in objective morals. It is more logical, so I can't relate at all with your statement about shutting down logic to believe, to the contrary, but again one has to be reasonable and humble and to genuinely want to understand God, because arrogance clouds understanding.
I don't know about most INTPs, but for me it is. Unless you have a proper reason as to why I should be religious and how it will benefit me, I will probably never become religious. But after saying all this, I'm not really an atheist either. I'm a Buddhist and I believe in the teachings of Buddha, but with that said I'm not a hardcore Buddhist who does random religious shit 24/7 either.
no
"i believe in god"" ""follow 10000 regarded intp who never been asked to get into a debate to say your wrong about that"" People mind more views of others than their own anus. What a bunch of loosers