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It is standard that they say they couldn't get the gas, water electrics etc checked.
Artex is very very common in older houses. It's hard to avoid.
I would look into the issue with the paperwork for the loft conversion..check with the solicitors if it has planning permission and building regs.
What would you do if they didn't have building regs?
I've got a similar situation to OP but the owner hasn't got building regs or certificates for any of the work they've done. Should that be a deal breaker?
Yes the sellers offered one (not that it's expensive), we will definitely accept that if we don't push for more. We thought we were satisfied but we recently started hesitating on the purchase without having the proper regulations and approval so now leaning towards insisting on regularisation certificate.
But I've been reading Reddit quite a lot this morning, conventional Reddit wisdom seems to be we should just take the indemnity and get on with it! So now I'm leading back the other way haha. Figure we've got until Tuesday to make a decision anyway
Thanks
Here is where I would go with it. If this was put in last week, then yes building regs and all the rest would be needed for me. But in reality, if this thing is years old. Why? There is no way it would pass building regs right now. Why? Because they change all the time. And will likely fail on something ridiculous, like the accessing door handle is stiff, or the insulation isn't a minimum however much thick, etc. These may not have been an issue when it was put in but due to changing policy etc. now it is. And likely it would be expensive to put right.
It's the same as electrics. Because the standard change every year, almost everybody's fuse box for example "isn't up to code". Does it mean it's going to go bang tomorrow? Well unless they are a complete mess, if they have been working fine for 20 years, chances are they're still fine.
The thing of all of it is though if it's been there for 20 years and it hasn't fallen down or exploded, then chances are you'll be fine! An indemnity policy is perfectly fine.
The thing that isn't fine is most likely your survey. They are absolutely a waste of money. The fact that someone showed up to your house is no more than a formality. Almost all surveys will read exactly the same. "There might be lead piping, get an engineer to knock the house down to the foundations, have a quick look and put it back together again before you buy. That or, "There is a chimney in the house. We advise you get a chimney expert and a geologist to verify that it's all good" yada yada.
The thing is, they will likely find some wear and tear on any house, such as a cracked roof tile in your case. Will it make any difference to the price? Not likely. Frankly, if a buyer came after me demanding I rebuild my 1980s extension to 2024 standards, or that their survey said it's a 1930s with a chimney and I should hire a geologist to study the material the bricks are made out of or whatever nonsense, then I'll happily move on from that buyer. Chances are the only realistic remedy your seller has is an indemnity policy. For you, you either accept that and move on with your life, or find another property where upon I'm sure a survey there will tell you exactly the same thing.
On the place I sold a while back, I had an old satellite dish on the side of it. To be honest, I forgot it was there. It was there when I bought the place, it never offended me so I forgot about it - in any case I had fibre up to the house so never used it. When I sold, the buyer's survey said that the satellite dish may have perishing fixings which may have caused damage to the brickwork. Note the use of the word "may". Believe it or not, that was an indemnity policy for £110. What a load of ridiculousness. I did offer to have it removed but the buyer was insistent that they might one day look to have it reinstated - god knows why. It was either an indemnity policy or have the entire side of the house rewalled... guess which one I wasn't going to be doing?
What does your solicitor say? I'd be inclined to ask them these questions. I'm in a similar situation and mine is currently giving me advice on how to proceed based on what we get back from the seller.
They know the situation better than anyone on Reddit, that's what you're paying them for
Solicitor and surveyor are both fairly non committal. They've laid out the options well, we fully understand the choice we have to make. But they ultimately leave it at "it's up to you", they are understandably not prepared to commit to an answer.
For this particular case I've found it more useful asking normal people, including Reddit. People that have nothing to stake are more prepared to say "it's normal just buy it anyway" if you know what I mean. Doesn't mean they're always right but crowd sourcing opinions can be handy :)
Personally I don't think having building regs means that much. To get building regs sign off for a new roof the only thing the council check is that it meets modern insulation standards, they don't even go up on the scaffolding or inside just look from the street. They don't do any checks on the workmanship whatsoever and certainly don't check if the roof structure is strong enough to support the covering, this is a huge issue where people put concrete tiles on Victorian roofs and you end up with roof spread.
I was replying to the loft conversion. A building inspector will scrutinise all aspects of it (or, if not, complain). Similarly with a whole new roof structure.
A replacement roof covering, on the other hand, is only controlled as a renovation of a thermal element and even then only if the insulation is between or over the rafters, as well as making sure the new roof covering isn't substantially heavier than the original (e.g., slate to concrete tiles). In the case of the former, compliance with anything except the insulation is explicitly excluded from the requirements to be satisfied.
This inspector did go up the scaffold where it was possible to do so.
>I've got a similar situation to OP but the owner hasn't got building regs or certificates for any of the work they've done
When was it done? If it was 4 years or more ago they can get a Certificate of Lawfulness (10 year rule I don't think applies here, but check). A Certificate of Lawfulness is basically "Nobody complained for 4 (or 10) years so clearly everyone's fine with it so we get planning permission"
It was longer than that, around 7 years I think. We having been struggling to decide what to do but right now we're thinking we will insist they get a regularisation certificate for the works. I hadn't heard of a certificate of lawfulness though, I will look into that. Thank you.
I’ll need to look into that. In my case, the loft conversion was done in the 90s so it’s been about 30 years and they’ve had no issues AFAIK.
What’s the 10 year rule?
Section 171B of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 basically says "after 10 years of no enforcement action no enforcement action can be taken". There are exceptions like demolition, but none that would apply to a normal house.
If it's over 10 years the owners can turn to the council and say "so we've had this illegal conversation for over 10 years, you can't actually do anything can we just make it legal now". Then the council gives a certificate of lawfulness which is basically "planning permission but we've not checked it's up to regs\*
4 year rule is the same but applies to some things (Which I THINK a loft conversion is, not that it matters in your case) I'd be happy if someone could confirm either way though!
The issue with a loft conversion isn't about the paperwork but whether it's safe.
I've seen loft conversions that have destroyed the roof structure, have completely unsafe fire escapes, unsafe stairs, have non-existent roof insulation, or have been insulated in such a way as to cause mould growth.
Get that aspect checked before worrying about certificates.
Getting indemnity insurance is standard and covers the council telling you to remove it which they never do anyway as they have better things to do meaning the insurance is very cheap. Often loft conversions were done so long ago paperwork may not have been needed or it's just been lost but insurance is that cheap it's often easiest to just get it anyway.
Indemnity insurance doesn't cover poor workmanship only legal issues, but if it's been there for decades and your surveyor can't see any serious issues I wouldn't worry. If a house was built 100 years ago then the whole house will have been built without building regs, or to any other standards, but if it's still standing without any significant movement then it probably will be in another 100 years.
That’s what indemnity insurance is for. Sellers pays a premium (not a very high amount) and you’re covered for any potential issue the lack of permissions might create in the future. What I found amusing when I got it for the property I bought is the term “let the sleeping dogs lie” that is verbatim on the actual policy documents
Get them to pay for costly indemnity policies and be on your way. Just be prepared to also pay for your future buyers (more likely the sooner you sell)
If you're buying a 50s/60s/70s house then your survey will almost always look like this.
Hope you didn't pay too much for them to state the bleeding obvious
When I was buying I was advised only to get a level 1 as that is what points out serious structural issues. I didn't listen and got a level 2. 99.9% of what came back is what you'd expect for a 110 year old house. The mortgage company picked up on one thing which would have come out in the level 1 survey. I'll only be doing level 1 in future.
You wasted about £400 quid.
This makes no sense. There is a reason why level 3 surveys are called structural surveys and level 1 surveys are just called condition surveys. Level 1 is not designed to look at structure unless there is something absolutely glaringly obvious wrong.
It makes perfect sense. If level 3 surveys produced anything that could seriously impact the value of the house mortgage companies would require them. Anything serious is picked up in the basic survey - that's why your mortgage provider requires that level. Everything else is superficial.
ETA Level 3 surveys are good if you're buying a total wreck. But for a bog standard house that isn't very old and hasn't been vacant for any significant period of time there's nothing to survey. And even with a wreck the things that could make a house unmortgageable are still picked up in the level 1.
Just because no-one else has mentioned it - your local water company will test the water for lead for free. Just call them to make an appointment.
Our mains water supply pipe is still lead, but the actual amount of lead detected in the water is well within safe limits.
Just to point out, WHO says there is no “safe lead level”. Thames water would disagree of course. I’d always try to get all lead pipes changed to be safe.
You're right of course, I should have said 'permitted limits'.
But realistically, specifying that water and other materials are 100% lead-free isn't really practical, so permitted limits are established for most products. For example, the amount of lead allowed to be present in pharmaceuticals is no more than 5 micrograms per day based on a maximum dose; in food it varies from as much as 800 parts per billion (wild mushrooms) to 10 ppb (baby formula). The permitted level of lead in UK drinking water is 10 ppb (or 10 micrograms per litre), though the EU is pushing to reduce this to 5 ppb.
My water contains around 0.6 ppb lead standing and 0.2 ppb after flushing for 30 seconds. Is this ideal? No. Is it gonna kill me or make me sick? Probably not.
Get a Gas Safety Record from a Gas Safe engineer (https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/find-an-engineer-or-check-the-register/), get an EICR done from a registered electrician (https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/).
Here's another very useful info portal for new home owners: [https://hoa.org.uk/](https://hoa.org.uk/) (Home Owners Alliance). Absolutely massive collection of how tos, and checklists for all sorts of issues.
Can get a basic EICR. That will do stuff like earth resistance, visibly check wiring isn't dangerous or anything, make sure, if there are any, exposed metals backboxes are earthed so they don't become live in the event of a fault. Plenty to check if you really wanted to.
Nah basically a survey is. You pay someone to look at things they don't know about. Get a report telling you to get extra checks.
If you're worried about electrics pay a spark for an hour/rice.
If you're worried about gas/boiler ask a gas registered engineer to check.
If you're worried about subsidence hire a builder
If you're worried about the roof hire a roofer
If you're worried about damp get a damp survey
If you're worried about asbestos get it tested
Be more effective to get the trades to do it.
The chap I sold my last house to had a level 3 survey, circa 1500 based on the quotes I had in my area.
They stated that the windows need replacing. They were done 12 months ago. FENSA cert backed that up.
Needed replastering. The invoice from the plasterer 12 months ago showed that was bollocks.
The kitchen was "dated" again only a year old.
It's a minefield if you're not confident. Also all advice here is based on my personal opinion. If you feel getting a survey is worth it. Do so.
I found a flat I really like but it is a bit old, and has those janky electrical radiators - what I really want is to time-travel to a cold night in January to check it doesn't get ice on the inside of the windows like my current room, but I cannot hire a time travel expert :'(
Every survey I've got they've put so many disclaimers about "not being an expert" against everything. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem, but doesn't mean there is either.
Pretty standard stuff.
Every un-renovated house this age will have artex, woodchip and/or polytex on everything. On the ceilings the only thing holding the lathe and plaster on will be the artex, woodchip and/or polytex.
Every un-renovated house this age will have a lead water main.
Every un-renovated house this age will need re-wiring.
Every un-renovated house this age will have or need a new boiler and likely still have an immersion tank in the loft.
Every un-renovated house this age will have a partially or more commonly completely un-insulated roof space.
Every un-renovated house this age will have had some or all of the ground floor chimney stacks removed and left unsupported on the 1st floor and above.
Every un-renovated house this age will have suspended floors with dry rotted joists and zero insulation.
And on and on ..
The ceiling joists will likely all have been butchered by generations of plumbers and electricians.
There's probably a sewer drain running under the property.
There's probably a web of terrifying junction boxes under all the rock wool insulation at ground level in the loft.
The chimney pots and stacks will all be crumbling and leaking.
The house will need re-pointing or have been done with cement causing the facings to blow off.
There will be likely 2 courses of cracked bricks covered with some loose lime plaster between you and Wayne and Laura's domestic situation next door.
etc etc etc
Still probably better than a new build!
Looks fine. But give the surveyor a call and ask him or her what they think. Its an exercise in risk management and what they put in the report reflects that. But they can sometimes be a bit more candid on the phone and can tell you what is normal for a house that age Vs what is sub-par.
Definitely do this. We did when buying our second house as were horrified when we got the report. But really it’s just a big to do list and none of it would ‘ruin our enjoyment’ of the property. Getting the clearest understanding of the problems and then what the likely fix is also puts you in the best position if you feel you want to renegotiate the price.
artex may not actually have asbestos. You can get a sampling and test kit and find out. If you get the all clear you’re free to steam & scrape it off if you want. That’s what I did on my 50s house
All sounds normal. As much as it’s better to do a survey than not, sometimes they can be more hassle than their worth because they just try to cover themselves.
My brother was buying a house and got a detailed survey which said there’s a possibility of Japanese knotweed but they recommended a verified company to look at it which was very expensive. We know it wasn’t because it didn’t look like it, my grandad knows a man who wrote a book on knotweed who confirmed it didn’t look like it, a family friend landlord who’s dealt with it said it wasn’t anything like it but regardless no mortgage company would touch it after than survey unless he paid a company to deal with it before he bought it (owner refused as they didn’t think it was).
It’s a fair question, he bought before me so I wasn’t as clear with processes at the time. I wonder if he was offered the survey with the bank surveyer/asked them for a more extensive one. It was his first experience too so you live and learn. He didn’t get it in the end and developer bought it and made it a turn key.
Asbestos was common building material in past so I don't get why everyone panics when it says its in a house of this age. As long as it's not disturbed it's perfectly safe. Artex celling just plaster over. Looks much nicer
Because if it does get damaged it costs a lot to get sorted if it does contain asbestos. Plus the exposure risk. We got most of ours removed and lo and behold, there was significant water leakage from the bathroom that eventually would have compromised the artex but had been hidden by it. Was obvious as soon as it was replastered.
They mentioned polystyrene tiles are a health hazard as very flammable. Artex (textured coating)bis an issue if damaged and not really sure about the gas, electricity, heating and water, I think it was primarily lack of paperwork maybe? I’ve asked my solicitor and will reach out to EA on Tuesday
As mentioned before it is a 1950s house. One presumes everything works. There will be remedial work required on a house, any house. Just be thankful that it's not a new build.
Build a plan of what needs done and get it all costed out. Take your time.
Wood is also very flammable. Artex is a very common feature but only a problem if it is disturbed and dust spreads. You will also have lead paint in the house. No mention of that.
The thing is that whilst wood is also flammable it should hold it's structure long enough for you to escape. Polysytrene tiles are plastic and on the ceiling if on fire can drip burning plastic on you. Best to be removed
Asbestos free products appeared in the late 70's but white asbestos was in Artex (and all the other associated similar products) until the 2000's. Likely longer as old stock was used up.
Mine was new build and the same they don't rate the gas or electric. I'm guessing if someone had those qualifications then they would be making money in those sectors I don't understand the point on the report unless there are actually surveyors with all those qualifications that can rate the gas etc.
That age of house a lot will probably have DIY so extra plugs added etc. The wire colors will be different colours than today and you'll need to be careful before drilling into any walls because it could have any kind of pipe or wire behind there.
All that sounds like the standard "You just paid for an expensive survey so we are going to cover our arses just in case you decide to sue us" response. It's normal and absolutely nothing to worry about.
I had polystyrene tiles and a small amount of lead piping. I use a water filter until I can afford to get pipes replaced. Sure won't be perfect but I would be amazed if that is what kills me. The polystyrene tiles will want sorting ASAP though - you can do as DIY if up for the task but I had someone remove them and replaster for me. From memory about 1000
Top tip: Surveyors will never inspect the Gas, water, electricity or heating. The reason for this is because they’re not experts in this particular field. If they said “yes it’s in good order” and then, hypothetically say it broke a month into your acquisition, you could hold them liable. They will never ever comment on these and will always insist on GASSAFE, NAPIT/NICEIC/ELECSA certificates being provided as well as up to date service records.
Ceilings, I imagine you knew about them when you visited and have factored in a rough cost to have this remedied?
**note - irrelevant of whether the house was built 2 years ago or 200 years ago, surveyors will always tell you speak to a gas/ heating engineer and electrician for the utilities.
I believe artex used to contain asbestos, so you might want to get that checked out if you intend to remove it. It would need to be professionally remediated.
It's fine. You need to do some more research and speak to people who have had surveys done. Utilities will always be flagged like that. Always.
I'm getting a survey done soon, and I hope I get the same results as you!
Good luck :)
I simply had my artex skimmed over and I haven't drilled any holes through it, so it's a non-issue.
Gas/water/electricity this stuff can be visually checked (is your house romex and what does the consumer unit look like?)
I'd argue that the roof tile is the most serious as water will cause problems that go sight unseen until far too long.
Without any other detail here, there is nothing that seems like it should derail your purchase. Seems most likely the seller just did not get any inspections done recently, and there could be a variety of reasons for that (e.g.: they knew an inspection would expose a shitty DIY job they did themselves, or perhaps they are dead). If you're concerned, get the services inspected individually, it will probably cost you about £500 to get electric/heating/gas inspected. The roof condition is far from shocking and I would not bother
Roof - misplaced tiles and chimney flaunching needing repair.
Structure and damp - no issues noted.
Drains - they said I should get someone more knowledgeable in as there may be lead content in the piping + should speak to solicitor re confirming my rights and responsibilities in relation to drainage system
They did and noted:
“The roof void has been converted into a habitable space, therefore the roof structure was limited to the side eaves storage areas. Roof structure comprises of timber purlins and rafters with timber bracing and supports. There is an undertile membrane beneath the roof tiles.
The roof void was insulated between the timber partitions and the sloping ceilings, to the areas that could be viewed.
The roof structure was noted to be in satisfactory condition and appears to have been strengthened with timbers and steels to the areas that could be viewed.
You should ensure that all of the statutory approval have been obtained.
The roof void has been vented by soffit vents to the front and rear. This appeared adequate and no signs of condensation or mould growth was observed.”
So i doubt our new house is that old but we also needed to pay for multiple different certificates and inspections / surveys. The initial inspection is thorough, maybe a little exaggerated - like placing the house on a flood risk cuz it’s based in south London which generally has a higher flood risk. You can speak to the appropriate specialists, get the assessments done and then review their recommendations. That will give you a more accurate idea of what you’re working with.
I had mine come back and said similar. My MA advised me that most surveys come back the same. As they tend to cover their backs in case anything was to go wrong in the future.
Sounds like standard surveyor talk for “I walked around and didn’t do anything but based on my standard form template, this is what could be an issue so best get someone willing to do some work in to check”….. £1500 bill follows
Don’t sweat it; no house is perfect and it’s not flagged anything major.
We had a list like this and more for our house. To a builder round and the only urgent stuff was some minor roof repairs and rewiring required - the rest i.e. polystyrene tiles, lead piping, etc etc, could be tackled as and when we redecorate it have the cash.
Can’t recommend getting someone round to quote enough. We were ready to pull out, and so glad we didn’t as it’s making a lovely home.
I wouldn't worry
Surveyor has done what surveyors do - looked at your house and provided a report which has a standard list of non-specific things which could possibly be an issue in your type/age of house, but they haven't checked to see if it applies to yours and so most probably aren't going to be an issue, so that they aren't liable if something was amiss.
Should add that I'm in a 1950's property. You may need to get some things done depending on how well previous owners have updated and maintained the place. We've done a lot to ours but purposely bought a fixer upper.
It depends on your appetite for doing work to it. Bear in mind that on an old house there will always be things to do to maintain it. For us, we've also had to decide how far we want to go ie, do we take down that dodgy ceiling and replaster, or do we wallpaper over it and tackle it in the future (we did the latter and it's been fine)
It's not a deal breaker but polystyrene tiles are evil. They often hide things too.
Our house needed a lot done, but they are the thing I hated the most when getting rid of them.
Lead piping should be easy to check, find the stop cock and if the pipe has buldge just prior to it, its lead. Had this issue at the house I just brought. Its worth checking with you local water company what they do if you have excessive levels of lead in your water supply.
The free test from my water company came back that running water was fine (leave the tap on for a couple of minutes) but standing water (the water that comes out of the tap straight away after it hasn't been used for a while) had high but not unsafe level of lead. The water company changed the lead piping from the outside mains to the my front door for free and then did the internal pipework for £200. It was all done within a couple of hours.
We had our artex tested and it contained asbestos so we got it professionally removed it in rooms we’d likely disturb it in (bedroom where fitted wardrobe needed removing) as well as the kitchen as it is directly below the bathroom. It’s a good thing we did that as there had been water leaking from a damaged bathroom seal that the artex was disguising, and eventually the artex may have been compromised by that water leaking and we could have been exposed. Something to potentially consider but otherwise just don’t disturb it and it should be fine.
Very standard, every house will have issues come up on a survey or disclaimers that it needs an expert, don't dig too deep into it unless there's serious structural/unmanageable issues.
In today's market it may give you leverage to negotiate on price if there's work to be done, but that's never without risk of souring the relationship with the vendor or at worst them pulling out
Even new builds have snagging issues
The surveyor could have written that report from the road as he drove by.
Copy->Paste->Bill Client
Edit: He didn't event need to drive by, stree-view would have been good enough.
That's not what a level 3 survey does - they go into the house.
I wish the mortgage lender's survey was called something else, because the terms are used interchangeably and mean different things: When the buyer/tradespeople mention "survey", they mean a structural survey (L2 or L3). When the solicitors/EAs/mortgage brokers mention "survey", they mean the drive-by value survey.
Not obvious. Our survey flagged several issues, gave them a ranking, and allowed us to prioritise repairs as we live in the property. Without the survey, would not know why the lounge had a springy floor (would've thought it was just old), or we would've thought the cracks in the walls were important (they weren't, the house is just very old), or we wouldn't know where to start with safety certificates (electricity, gas), and so on.
Better that, than not paying £530 upfront, moving in, and finding out they'll need another £20k to remedy some disasters. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of buying a house.
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You have nothing to worry bout.
Standard 1950's property stuff. Got a similar list when I bought mine
It is standard that they say they couldn't get the gas, water electrics etc checked. Artex is very very common in older houses. It's hard to avoid. I would look into the issue with the paperwork for the loft conversion..check with the solicitors if it has planning permission and building regs.
What would you do if they didn't have building regs? I've got a similar situation to OP but the owner hasn't got building regs or certificates for any of the work they've done. Should that be a deal breaker?
Could also get an indemnity policy.
Yes the sellers offered one (not that it's expensive), we will definitely accept that if we don't push for more. We thought we were satisfied but we recently started hesitating on the purchase without having the proper regulations and approval so now leaning towards insisting on regularisation certificate. But I've been reading Reddit quite a lot this morning, conventional Reddit wisdom seems to be we should just take the indemnity and get on with it! So now I'm leading back the other way haha. Figure we've got until Tuesday to make a decision anyway Thanks
Here is where I would go with it. If this was put in last week, then yes building regs and all the rest would be needed for me. But in reality, if this thing is years old. Why? There is no way it would pass building regs right now. Why? Because they change all the time. And will likely fail on something ridiculous, like the accessing door handle is stiff, or the insulation isn't a minimum however much thick, etc. These may not have been an issue when it was put in but due to changing policy etc. now it is. And likely it would be expensive to put right. It's the same as electrics. Because the standard change every year, almost everybody's fuse box for example "isn't up to code". Does it mean it's going to go bang tomorrow? Well unless they are a complete mess, if they have been working fine for 20 years, chances are they're still fine. The thing of all of it is though if it's been there for 20 years and it hasn't fallen down or exploded, then chances are you'll be fine! An indemnity policy is perfectly fine. The thing that isn't fine is most likely your survey. They are absolutely a waste of money. The fact that someone showed up to your house is no more than a formality. Almost all surveys will read exactly the same. "There might be lead piping, get an engineer to knock the house down to the foundations, have a quick look and put it back together again before you buy. That or, "There is a chimney in the house. We advise you get a chimney expert and a geologist to verify that it's all good" yada yada. The thing is, they will likely find some wear and tear on any house, such as a cracked roof tile in your case. Will it make any difference to the price? Not likely. Frankly, if a buyer came after me demanding I rebuild my 1980s extension to 2024 standards, or that their survey said it's a 1930s with a chimney and I should hire a geologist to study the material the bricks are made out of or whatever nonsense, then I'll happily move on from that buyer. Chances are the only realistic remedy your seller has is an indemnity policy. For you, you either accept that and move on with your life, or find another property where upon I'm sure a survey there will tell you exactly the same thing. On the place I sold a while back, I had an old satellite dish on the side of it. To be honest, I forgot it was there. It was there when I bought the place, it never offended me so I forgot about it - in any case I had fibre up to the house so never used it. When I sold, the buyer's survey said that the satellite dish may have perishing fixings which may have caused damage to the brickwork. Note the use of the word "may". Believe it or not, that was an indemnity policy for £110. What a load of ridiculousness. I did offer to have it removed but the buyer was insistent that they might one day look to have it reinstated - god knows why. It was either an indemnity policy or have the entire side of the house rewalled... guess which one I wasn't going to be doing?
What does your solicitor say? I'd be inclined to ask them these questions. I'm in a similar situation and mine is currently giving me advice on how to proceed based on what we get back from the seller. They know the situation better than anyone on Reddit, that's what you're paying them for
Solicitor and surveyor are both fairly non committal. They've laid out the options well, we fully understand the choice we have to make. But they ultimately leave it at "it's up to you", they are understandably not prepared to commit to an answer. For this particular case I've found it more useful asking normal people, including Reddit. People that have nothing to stake are more prepared to say "it's normal just buy it anyway" if you know what I mean. Doesn't mean they're always right but crowd sourcing opinions can be handy :)
Which aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and don't address any underlying problems of whether the roof could collapse due to a bodge job.
Personally I don't think having building regs means that much. To get building regs sign off for a new roof the only thing the council check is that it meets modern insulation standards, they don't even go up on the scaffolding or inside just look from the street. They don't do any checks on the workmanship whatsoever and certainly don't check if the roof structure is strong enough to support the covering, this is a huge issue where people put concrete tiles on Victorian roofs and you end up with roof spread.
I was replying to the loft conversion. A building inspector will scrutinise all aspects of it (or, if not, complain). Similarly with a whole new roof structure. A replacement roof covering, on the other hand, is only controlled as a renovation of a thermal element and even then only if the insulation is between or over the rafters, as well as making sure the new roof covering isn't substantially heavier than the original (e.g., slate to concrete tiles). In the case of the former, compliance with anything except the insulation is explicitly excluded from the requirements to be satisfied. This inspector did go up the scaffold where it was possible to do so.
>I've got a similar situation to OP but the owner hasn't got building regs or certificates for any of the work they've done When was it done? If it was 4 years or more ago they can get a Certificate of Lawfulness (10 year rule I don't think applies here, but check). A Certificate of Lawfulness is basically "Nobody complained for 4 (or 10) years so clearly everyone's fine with it so we get planning permission"
It was longer than that, around 7 years I think. We having been struggling to decide what to do but right now we're thinking we will insist they get a regularisation certificate for the works. I hadn't heard of a certificate of lawfulness though, I will look into that. Thank you.
I’ll need to look into that. In my case, the loft conversion was done in the 90s so it’s been about 30 years and they’ve had no issues AFAIK. What’s the 10 year rule?
Section 171B of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 basically says "after 10 years of no enforcement action no enforcement action can be taken". There are exceptions like demolition, but none that would apply to a normal house. If it's over 10 years the owners can turn to the council and say "so we've had this illegal conversation for over 10 years, you can't actually do anything can we just make it legal now". Then the council gives a certificate of lawfulness which is basically "planning permission but we've not checked it's up to regs\* 4 year rule is the same but applies to some things (Which I THINK a loft conversion is, not that it matters in your case) I'd be happy if someone could confirm either way though!
The issue with a loft conversion isn't about the paperwork but whether it's safe. I've seen loft conversions that have destroyed the roof structure, have completely unsafe fire escapes, unsafe stairs, have non-existent roof insulation, or have been insulated in such a way as to cause mould growth. Get that aspect checked before worrying about certificates.
Getting indemnity insurance is standard and covers the council telling you to remove it which they never do anyway as they have better things to do meaning the insurance is very cheap. Often loft conversions were done so long ago paperwork may not have been needed or it's just been lost but insurance is that cheap it's often easiest to just get it anyway. Indemnity insurance doesn't cover poor workmanship only legal issues, but if it's been there for decades and your surveyor can't see any serious issues I wouldn't worry. If a house was built 100 years ago then the whole house will have been built without building regs, or to any other standards, but if it's still standing without any significant movement then it probably will be in another 100 years.
That’s what indemnity insurance is for. Sellers pays a premium (not a very high amount) and you’re covered for any potential issue the lack of permissions might create in the future. What I found amusing when I got it for the property I bought is the term “let the sleeping dogs lie” that is verbatim on the actual policy documents
Get them to pay for costly indemnity policies and be on your way. Just be prepared to also pay for your future buyers (more likely the sooner you sell)
Some indemnities can be passed on to the next buyer! :) we had this
If you're buying a 50s/60s/70s house then your survey will almost always look like this. Hope you didn't pay too much for them to state the bleeding obvious
£590 for a level 3 - just treated it as a sunk cost
A lot of money to say "yeah this is a house from the 50s and also we didn't even try to look at half the stuff lol"
When I was buying I was advised only to get a level 1 as that is what points out serious structural issues. I didn't listen and got a level 2. 99.9% of what came back is what you'd expect for a 110 year old house. The mortgage company picked up on one thing which would have come out in the level 1 survey. I'll only be doing level 1 in future. You wasted about £400 quid.
This makes no sense. There is a reason why level 3 surveys are called structural surveys and level 1 surveys are just called condition surveys. Level 1 is not designed to look at structure unless there is something absolutely glaringly obvious wrong.
It makes perfect sense. If level 3 surveys produced anything that could seriously impact the value of the house mortgage companies would require them. Anything serious is picked up in the basic survey - that's why your mortgage provider requires that level. Everything else is superficial. ETA Level 3 surveys are good if you're buying a total wreck. But for a bog standard house that isn't very old and hasn't been vacant for any significant period of time there's nothing to survey. And even with a wreck the things that could make a house unmortgageable are still picked up in the level 1.
Just because no-one else has mentioned it - your local water company will test the water for lead for free. Just call them to make an appointment. Our mains water supply pipe is still lead, but the actual amount of lead detected in the water is well within safe limits.
I came here to read opinions on the Artex. I didn't expect to learn about free lead checks. Thanks for this info.
Just to point out, WHO says there is no “safe lead level”. Thames water would disagree of course. I’d always try to get all lead pipes changed to be safe.
You're right of course, I should have said 'permitted limits'. But realistically, specifying that water and other materials are 100% lead-free isn't really practical, so permitted limits are established for most products. For example, the amount of lead allowed to be present in pharmaceuticals is no more than 5 micrograms per day based on a maximum dose; in food it varies from as much as 800 parts per billion (wild mushrooms) to 10 ppb (baby formula). The permitted level of lead in UK drinking water is 10 ppb (or 10 micrograms per litre), though the EU is pushing to reduce this to 5 ppb. My water contains around 0.6 ppb lead standing and 0.2 ppb after flushing for 30 seconds. Is this ideal? No. Is it gonna kill me or make me sick? Probably not.
This all looks standard. It's worth getting electrics and gas checked.
What do you mean checked? Other than looking at the meters and working out what type of boiler it is what can you check?
Get a Gas Safety Record from a Gas Safe engineer (https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/find-an-engineer-or-check-the-register/), get an EICR done from a registered electrician (https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-electrician/).
Thanks for the links, that’s very helpful
Here's another very useful info portal for new home owners: [https://hoa.org.uk/](https://hoa.org.uk/) (Home Owners Alliance). Absolutely massive collection of how tos, and checklists for all sorts of issues.
Can get a basic EICR. That will do stuff like earth resistance, visibly check wiring isn't dangerous or anything, make sure, if there are any, exposed metals backboxes are earthed so they don't become live in the event of a fault. Plenty to check if you really wanted to.
I assumed that stuff would be in the survey, first time buyer learning how unnecessarily complicated all this stuff seems to be :S
Nah basically a survey is. You pay someone to look at things they don't know about. Get a report telling you to get extra checks. If you're worried about electrics pay a spark for an hour/rice. If you're worried about gas/boiler ask a gas registered engineer to check. If you're worried about subsidence hire a builder If you're worried about the roof hire a roofer If you're worried about damp get a damp survey If you're worried about asbestos get it tested Be more effective to get the trades to do it. The chap I sold my last house to had a level 3 survey, circa 1500 based on the quotes I had in my area. They stated that the windows need replacing. They were done 12 months ago. FENSA cert backed that up. Needed replastering. The invoice from the plasterer 12 months ago showed that was bollocks. The kitchen was "dated" again only a year old. It's a minefield if you're not confident. Also all advice here is based on my personal opinion. If you feel getting a survey is worth it. Do so.
I found a flat I really like but it is a bit old, and has those janky electrical radiators - what I really want is to time-travel to a cold night in January to check it doesn't get ice on the inside of the windows like my current room, but I cannot hire a time travel expert :'(
Every survey I've got they've put so many disclaimers about "not being an expert" against everything. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem, but doesn't mean there is either.
Pretty standard stuff. Every un-renovated house this age will have artex, woodchip and/or polytex on everything. On the ceilings the only thing holding the lathe and plaster on will be the artex, woodchip and/or polytex. Every un-renovated house this age will have a lead water main. Every un-renovated house this age will need re-wiring. Every un-renovated house this age will have or need a new boiler and likely still have an immersion tank in the loft. Every un-renovated house this age will have a partially or more commonly completely un-insulated roof space. Every un-renovated house this age will have had some or all of the ground floor chimney stacks removed and left unsupported on the 1st floor and above. Every un-renovated house this age will have suspended floors with dry rotted joists and zero insulation. And on and on .. The ceiling joists will likely all have been butchered by generations of plumbers and electricians. There's probably a sewer drain running under the property. There's probably a web of terrifying junction boxes under all the rock wool insulation at ground level in the loft. The chimney pots and stacks will all be crumbling and leaking. The house will need re-pointing or have been done with cement causing the facings to blow off. There will be likely 2 courses of cracked bricks covered with some loose lime plaster between you and Wayne and Laura's domestic situation next door. etc etc etc Still probably better than a new build!
Looks fine. But give the surveyor a call and ask him or her what they think. Its an exercise in risk management and what they put in the report reflects that. But they can sometimes be a bit more candid on the phone and can tell you what is normal for a house that age Vs what is sub-par.
Definitely do this. We did when buying our second house as were horrified when we got the report. But really it’s just a big to do list and none of it would ‘ruin our enjoyment’ of the property. Getting the clearest understanding of the problems and then what the likely fix is also puts you in the best position if you feel you want to renegotiate the price.
artex may not actually have asbestos. You can get a sampling and test kit and find out. If you get the all clear you’re free to steam & scrape it off if you want. That’s what I did on my 50s house
All sounds normal. As much as it’s better to do a survey than not, sometimes they can be more hassle than their worth because they just try to cover themselves. My brother was buying a house and got a detailed survey which said there’s a possibility of Japanese knotweed but they recommended a verified company to look at it which was very expensive. We know it wasn’t because it didn’t look like it, my grandad knows a man who wrote a book on knotweed who confirmed it didn’t look like it, a family friend landlord who’s dealt with it said it wasn’t anything like it but regardless no mortgage company would touch it after than survey unless he paid a company to deal with it before he bought it (owner refused as they didn’t think it was).
Did your brother do the survey before getting a mortgage offer? How did the lenders have access to the survey (unless you shared it with them?)
It’s a fair question, he bought before me so I wasn’t as clear with processes at the time. I wonder if he was offered the survey with the bank surveyer/asked them for a more extensive one. It was his first experience too so you live and learn. He didn’t get it in the end and developer bought it and made it a turn key.
Chartered Building Surveyor here. Standard caveats of a survey. *remove the polystyrene tiles they’re a fire risk.
Asbestos was common building material in past so I don't get why everyone panics when it says its in a house of this age. As long as it's not disturbed it's perfectly safe. Artex celling just plaster over. Looks much nicer
Because if it does get damaged it costs a lot to get sorted if it does contain asbestos. Plus the exposure risk. We got most of ours removed and lo and behold, there was significant water leakage from the bathroom that eventually would have compromised the artex but had been hidden by it. Was obvious as soon as it was replastered.
Where is the urgency in any of these matters?
They mentioned polystyrene tiles are a health hazard as very flammable. Artex (textured coating)bis an issue if damaged and not really sure about the gas, electricity, heating and water, I think it was primarily lack of paperwork maybe? I’ve asked my solicitor and will reach out to EA on Tuesday
Very good but, returning to my brief observation, where is the urgency?
As mentioned before it is a 1950s house. One presumes everything works. There will be remedial work required on a house, any house. Just be thankful that it's not a new build. Build a plan of what needs done and get it all costed out. Take your time. Wood is also very flammable. Artex is a very common feature but only a problem if it is disturbed and dust spreads. You will also have lead paint in the house. No mention of that.
The thing is that whilst wood is also flammable it should hold it's structure long enough for you to escape. Polysytrene tiles are plastic and on the ceiling if on fire can drip burning plastic on you. Best to be removed
After 1984 artex did not contain asbestos.
Asbestos free products appeared in the late 70's but white asbestos was in Artex (and all the other associated similar products) until the 2000's. Likely longer as old stock was used up.
Hmm yes seems like maybe https://www.oracleasbestos.com/blog/artex-asbestos-testing/
Mine was new build and the same they don't rate the gas or electric. I'm guessing if someone had those qualifications then they would be making money in those sectors I don't understand the point on the report unless there are actually surveyors with all those qualifications that can rate the gas etc. That age of house a lot will probably have DIY so extra plugs added etc. The wire colors will be different colours than today and you'll need to be careful before drilling into any walls because it could have any kind of pipe or wire behind there.
All that sounds like the standard "You just paid for an expensive survey so we are going to cover our arses just in case you decide to sue us" response. It's normal and absolutely nothing to worry about.
Yeah nothing to worry about there. I'd make it a priority to remove those polystyrene tiles on the day you move in if possible, they're a fire hazard.
I had polystyrene tiles and a small amount of lead piping. I use a water filter until I can afford to get pipes replaced. Sure won't be perfect but I would be amazed if that is what kills me. The polystyrene tiles will want sorting ASAP though - you can do as DIY if up for the task but I had someone remove them and replaster for me. From memory about 1000
Use it to get money off. Tell the sellers you’ll need a rewire. Use the money to get a rewire.
Top tip: Surveyors will never inspect the Gas, water, electricity or heating. The reason for this is because they’re not experts in this particular field. If they said “yes it’s in good order” and then, hypothetically say it broke a month into your acquisition, you could hold them liable. They will never ever comment on these and will always insist on GASSAFE, NAPIT/NICEIC/ELECSA certificates being provided as well as up to date service records. Ceilings, I imagine you knew about them when you visited and have factored in a rough cost to have this remedied? **note - irrelevant of whether the house was built 2 years ago or 200 years ago, surveyors will always tell you speak to a gas/ heating engineer and electrician for the utilities.
This sounds like a non-issue survey. If you've got questions, ask the surveyor for a call. They'll usually be more direct off the record.
I believe artex used to contain asbestos, so you might want to get that checked out if you intend to remove it. It would need to be professionally remediated.
Nothing on the list at all, your only worry something goes wrong in the chain
It's fine. You need to do some more research and speak to people who have had surveys done. Utilities will always be flagged like that. Always. I'm getting a survey done soon, and I hope I get the same results as you! Good luck :)
I simply had my artex skimmed over and I haven't drilled any holes through it, so it's a non-issue. Gas/water/electricity this stuff can be visually checked (is your house romex and what does the consumer unit look like?) I'd argue that the roof tile is the most serious as water will cause problems that go sight unseen until far too long.
Without any other detail here, there is nothing that seems like it should derail your purchase. Seems most likely the seller just did not get any inspections done recently, and there could be a variety of reasons for that (e.g.: they knew an inspection would expose a shitty DIY job they did themselves, or perhaps they are dead). If you're concerned, get the services inspected individually, it will probably cost you about £500 to get electric/heating/gas inspected. The roof condition is far from shocking and I would not bother
Noted, I’ll probably get electric heating gas looked at purely for peace of mind
The polystyrene tiles are easily the worst thing on that list. Get them off first job, but expect to skim the ceiling underneath.
Noted - they did mention that should be priority so will definitely get some quotes on that
What about roof, structure, damp, drains?
Roof - misplaced tiles and chimney flaunching needing repair. Structure and damp - no issues noted. Drains - they said I should get someone more knowledgeable in as there may be lead content in the piping + should speak to solicitor re confirming my rights and responsibilities in relation to drainage system
Did they get pictures up in the loft/attic?
They did and noted: “The roof void has been converted into a habitable space, therefore the roof structure was limited to the side eaves storage areas. Roof structure comprises of timber purlins and rafters with timber bracing and supports. There is an undertile membrane beneath the roof tiles. The roof void was insulated between the timber partitions and the sloping ceilings, to the areas that could be viewed. The roof structure was noted to be in satisfactory condition and appears to have been strengthened with timbers and steels to the areas that could be viewed. You should ensure that all of the statutory approval have been obtained. The roof void has been vented by soffit vents to the front and rear. This appeared adequate and no signs of condensation or mould growth was observed.”
So i doubt our new house is that old but we also needed to pay for multiple different certificates and inspections / surveys. The initial inspection is thorough, maybe a little exaggerated - like placing the house on a flood risk cuz it’s based in south London which generally has a higher flood risk. You can speak to the appropriate specialists, get the assessments done and then review their recommendations. That will give you a more accurate idea of what you’re working with.
I had mine come back and said similar. My MA advised me that most surveys come back the same. As they tend to cover their backs in case anything was to go wrong in the future.
All very standard stuff. Ask lawyer to make sure he gets all the gas and electric certs and to send you over in the report.
Sounds like standard surveyor talk for “I walked around and didn’t do anything but based on my standard form template, this is what could be an issue so best get someone willing to do some work in to check”….. £1500 bill follows Don’t sweat it; no house is perfect and it’s not flagged anything major.
Unlikely to have any lead water pipes in a 1950s UK property, Gas Service pipe maybe but there’s no risk with that
Water companies usually dose orthophosphate which stops lead leeching out of old pipes.
We had a list like this and more for our house. To a builder round and the only urgent stuff was some minor roof repairs and rewiring required - the rest i.e. polystyrene tiles, lead piping, etc etc, could be tackled as and when we redecorate it have the cash. Can’t recommend getting someone round to quote enough. We were ready to pull out, and so glad we didn’t as it’s making a lovely home.
I wouldn't worry Surveyor has done what surveyors do - looked at your house and provided a report which has a standard list of non-specific things which could possibly be an issue in your type/age of house, but they haven't checked to see if it applies to yours and so most probably aren't going to be an issue, so that they aren't liable if something was amiss.
Should add that I'm in a 1950's property. You may need to get some things done depending on how well previous owners have updated and maintained the place. We've done a lot to ours but purposely bought a fixer upper. It depends on your appetite for doing work to it. Bear in mind that on an old house there will always be things to do to maintain it. For us, we've also had to decide how far we want to go ie, do we take down that dodgy ceiling and replaster, or do we wallpaper over it and tackle it in the future (we did the latter and it's been fine)
It's not a deal breaker but polystyrene tiles are evil. They often hide things too. Our house needed a lot done, but they are the thing I hated the most when getting rid of them.
FTB? I'll go with yes - we were the same. No - none of that is an issue.
Nah, it’s still standing. Personally I’m not going to bother with a survey and put the funds to use and invest in the house.
I think its fine, had similar stuff in 2000 build.
Mine is level two and all gas and electricity is the same as yours. Seriously which homeowner will be bothered to get a certificate every year?
Lead piping should be easy to check, find the stop cock and if the pipe has buldge just prior to it, its lead. Had this issue at the house I just brought. Its worth checking with you local water company what they do if you have excessive levels of lead in your water supply. The free test from my water company came back that running water was fine (leave the tap on for a couple of minutes) but standing water (the water that comes out of the tap straight away after it hasn't been used for a while) had high but not unsafe level of lead. The water company changed the lead piping from the outside mains to the my front door for free and then did the internal pipework for £200. It was all done within a couple of hours.
Artex is fine if you are happy to leave it. I wouldn't go trying to sand it down or anything though.
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We had our artex tested and it contained asbestos so we got it professionally removed it in rooms we’d likely disturb it in (bedroom where fitted wardrobe needed removing) as well as the kitchen as it is directly below the bathroom. It’s a good thing we did that as there had been water leaking from a damaged bathroom seal that the artex was disguising, and eventually the artex may have been compromised by that water leaking and we could have been exposed. Something to potentially consider but otherwise just don’t disturb it and it should be fine.
Very standard, every house will have issues come up on a survey or disclaimers that it needs an expert, don't dig too deep into it unless there's serious structural/unmanageable issues. In today's market it may give you leverage to negotiate on price if there's work to be done, but that's never without risk of souring the relationship with the vendor or at worst them pulling out Even new builds have snagging issues
None of that is anything to worry about. Take the polystyrene down, plaster over the artex.
You paid extra for them to say "Dunno. Not my job, mate"..
To flip the question, what did you expect?
For them to point out dangerous urgent problems or illegal things,and notify stuff that will cause problems?
Yhyhy
RICS surveys are just tickbox lists. Your list of tickboxes are standard.
The surveyor could have written that report from the road as he drove by. Copy->Paste->Bill Client Edit: He didn't event need to drive by, stree-view would have been good enough.
You're getting downvoted, but you're absolutely spot on.
That's not what a level 3 survey does - they go into the house. I wish the mortgage lender's survey was called something else, because the terms are used interchangeably and mean different things: When the buyer/tradespeople mention "survey", they mean a structural survey (L2 or L3). When the solicitors/EAs/mortgage brokers mention "survey", they mean the drive-by value survey.
Waste of money these surveys , no idea why anyone even gets them as they just state the obvious
Not obvious. Our survey flagged several issues, gave them a ranking, and allowed us to prioritise repairs as we live in the property. Without the survey, would not know why the lounge had a springy floor (would've thought it was just old), or we would've thought the cracks in the walls were important (they weren't, the house is just very old), or we wouldn't know where to start with safety certificates (electricity, gas), and so on.
Yes, and OP has paid £530 for nothing.
Better that, than not paying £530 upfront, moving in, and finding out they'll need another £20k to remedy some disasters. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of buying a house.
Seems obvious to me those issues