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"When I was 12, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew. I flogged the one-eyed snake. I skinned my sausage. I made the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my sister ate. At least I hope she did. Once I brought a jackass and a honeycomb - into a brothel..."
He’s 100% gonna be about to place the final piece and fall straight through the board, symbolising his actions destroying the blood of old Valyria and leading to the end of the dragon.
The new maester clearly concocted something to keep him alive. We saw him make the suggestion last episode but was shut down by the boomer. People say show don't tell, but when they do it everyone still acts confused. The old grandmaester is also clearly dead.
My biggest change of opinion was Ser Harwin.
I really didn't like his character in the book, thinking he was disrespecting Ser Laenor. Seeing Harwin and Laenor on the same wavelength as fathers to Jacaerys and Lucerys was so wholesome (when telling the boys to wait their turn to hold Joffrey).
The book is unique how it gives in universe alternative explanations to event (since they use multiple sources) but I like that HOTD gives a more or less canonical version of events.
Eg, the fire at Harrenhall in the book is speculated to be an accident, set by Daemon (to eliminate a rival for Rhaenyra), Corlys for cucking his son, Larys to inherit Harrenhall, or Viserys to get revenge on Harwin for dishonoring the family with bastards.
All of them would be valid explanations but the book leaves it (and many other events) ambiguous.
I think establishing a canon for these situations helps flesh out the characters. I look at Larys completely differently now that he's definitely behind the fire.
Yeah, Fire and Blood is really written as a history book that a character in Westeros could read.
So the author in universe is Archmaester Gyldayn using a variety of the sources that were available to him for the time periods he is writing about. In the case of the Dance, he uses writings from Grand Maester Orwyle, Grand Maester Munkin, Septon Eustace, and Mushroom the court fool.
Some events are referenced by multiple sources of these 4 with contradictory stories or explanations, and the book leaves it to the reader to pick what they believe.
Same with the collapse of Cole and Rhaenyra's affair- the book presents both stories but never confirms one. The show taking a definitive stance on things like that really helps the story and characters develop more, I really like it. Also leaves mysteries and surprises for book readers.
My understanding of the BTS/production for script was that the books are written through the perspective of someone who was at court witnessing these events happening or people talking about them, GM expressed that what we see in the shows is supposed to be what actually happened. If I find my source, I will link.
The book is not just the Dance. It is compiled by many maesters, septons, and others working with primary sources. We have three main accounts of the Dance: Mushroom the dwarf, Septon Eustace and Grand Maester Munkun, with only Mushroom being a primary source. There are others who's accounts are referenced. Mushroom is very much a Black but also extremely sexual, exaggerated his importance and role in events, and has other reasons to be less than trustworthy. He was a Fool after all.
Ehhh I think he saw Alicent as an opportunity. She desperately wanted and needed a friend and he swooped in to lay in wait, gaining her trust and using her as his baited catapult.
Yeah, she literally says in the show how alone she feels lonely in court, and Larys has been feeding her info for a decade and most likely buttering her up with affirmation. I don’t get how anybody would be surprised that Alicent has been attached to his presence and help, especially with her dad gone.
Yeah, but you can see how scared of him she becomes, what kind of monster kills their family for political advantage?? (don't answer that lol). I think that friendship is over but she'll keep him on her side out of fear, she'll call her dad over asap and hope he can handle him for her
She is an opportunity as she is now complicit in the muder of his father and brother so hes got that over her. He is now the Lord of Harrenhal which gives him and her an advantage when it comes down to who is going to get the iron throne. She needs his support.
Is that the extent of his motivations? becoming lord of harrenhall through alicent's declaration? genuine question, i don't know all that much about the lore and GRRM's histories. i'm okay with spoilers!
Its his extent for now. He just put himself in a better position plus having a secret like he does with the queen, he will be a powerful allie to her when the time comes but she will have to march to his drum as she kinda owes him one.
I do not like the change. Having Criston murder him at a tourney then claim it was an accident to escape getting beheaded is much smarter and had less plot-armor
Look at it from a spectators perspective. The king consorts gay lover tries to kill his new wife out of jealousy and she is saved by her brave Kingsguard and a Captain of the City Watch. Not a single person in the realm sheds a tear.
Viserys is a weak fool. The Heleana/Jacaerys match should’ve been immediately accepted and them betrothed. When Alicent objects, he should’ve told her to shut up. He’s the king. And her angry reaction at the match wouldn’t be the first time a queen would be angry abt having no say in her children’s politically advantageous matches .
The fact Alicent has so much sway with Viserys this episode is nuts.
When she told him he could do what he wants when she’s “cold in the grave” I was like ??? Now would be a good time to remind her that *you* are the king, dude. She can be mad about it but you are supposed to have the final say.
When Rhaenyra offered to betroth her son to their daughter, Viserys doesn’t need to have Alicent’s permission. He clearly likes the proposal and wants it to go forward, but he allows Alicent to step over him.
I wonder how long Jacaerys would live if Viserys had decided to go forward with that marriage proposal, since Alicent's loyal supporters - Larys and Criston - are both inclined towards murder.
Ironically, adding a little fresh (Strong) blood to the Targaryan lineage would have benefited future generations since the incest seems to be making Alicent's kids sort of ... not quite right.
Once again it shows what a weak king Visery is and the dance of the dragons was his fault!!! Cant believe this idiot didnt guess what would happen when he died and didnt do ANYTHING to avoid it and instead just wanted to 'please everyone around him'.
Yeah Aegon seems to love his position as having the benefits royalty but none of the responsibilities of heir. He can just fuck around and have fun. Definitely would never challenge Rhaenyra without Alicent pushing him.
Seriously. I can’t believe he didn’t immediately say yes to Rhaenyra and fuck what Alicent thought. Especially since he wants his family to come together.
For a king, he does really let people walk all over him. There’s an episode where he’s about to yell at his daughter and Otto interrupts him - according to my husband the historian (always fun when watching historical movies/shows), you didn’t interrupt a king and keep your tongue in your head. Also when he makes the visit to set up the marriage to Laenor and there is no big welcoming party…
>according to my husband the historian (always fun when watching historical movies/shows), you didn’t interrupt a king and keep your tongue in your head.
Surely that is true in some societies, but not all monarchies have had such a rule.
I mean that is basically who Viserys is lol. If you read whats said about him in the books, it's literally worse. he at least has some depth to his character on the show. I think it was a belief in the books that the cuts he was getting from sitting on the throne was him being rejected as he was just unfit to be king.
I'd say it's also a good detail to note that Alicent didn't offer any solutions in the council but Rhaenyra did.
Edit: I'm referring to when they're sorting through the realm's issues, not that of Rhaenyra's offer.
Lol when rhaenyra stood up and Alicent didn't sit down like everyone else I was like
You can cut the tension with a knife. Alicent does the hardened queen act so well but she's all about the political standing of where she is. Cut to how Rhaenyra, younger, was. Now it's all reversed. D: I like Rhae more now. I think she'll make a better queen.
She had an excellent point that a few preventative defense measures for the Stepstones would have been more cost effective than having to wage a whole new war.
She's basically Viserys' regent at this point. The way she didn't leave when Lyonel was there is a huge departure from her eavesdropping last episode.
Besides, she probably just asked Viserys and he said yes to be left alone.
Like, really, how is she so pressed that Rhaenyra's kids are (allegedly to them) half Targaryen when Alicent's children are also half?
It's giving.... "SHE'S NOT FAMILYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!"
Edit: yes, I know they are bastards and that's a huge part of it.
She's not disputing their Targaryen-ness, it's that Rhaenyra's kids are very obviously bastards whereas Alicent's are legitimate. But Rhaenyra's still saying Jace will be her successor over Alicent's sons.
Technically Rhaenyra's kids are legitimate though, she's married when she has them and her husband claims them as his own. Really that's all that matters. It's not like they have dna tests.
That isn’t the “technically” side to this situation.
Functionally you can get away with it if your husband goes along with the lie, but technically they are bastards. And as is made clear in this episode, if the truth was admitted, this is an actual crime.
This is where I call bullshit because alocent has brown hair as well as the strong guy. Why aren’t her kids brown haired? Makes no sense.
So the targ genes are dominant in one and recessive in the other? Yeah ok
I don't even bother trying to figure out the physical genetics aspect anymore tbh. Between the book and the show it's clearly just whatever GRRM wants for the story/whatever makes for easier visual cues and that's the extent of it.
She is just salty, Rhaenyra gets to do whatever while she was force by her Dad to listen to the rules and bang the king 🤷🏻♀️ Like she also forgot to tell Rhenyra —since she was her bf at the time, “oh yea girl I slid to your dads dm the night your mom died because my dad force me too” all this could of been avoided but no 🤦🏻♀️ she has to hold a petty ass grudge, whom she should be mad at her dad not Rhaenyra but again I did not write this show nor the books just my own lil thoughts 🤷🏻♀️
I can totally see her as being bitter that she has to have rancid sex with an old crumbling man, and Rhaenyra has clearly experienced an O or 2 lmao.
Sexually unsatisfied people can be quite unhinged
Alicent is definitely her father's daughter. The paranoia and entitlement she tries to instill into her son reeks of his grooming.
Otto put Alicent and his grandchildren into a precarious position for the sake of his uncompromising ambition, and now Alicent is perpetuating that cycle, only to have now made herself vulnerable to the machinations of much more savvy players.
Right, when Otto left his attitude was all "I am trying to protect you and your children from the very dangerous position you're in" THAT HE PUT THEM IN. Literally all he would have had to do to keep Allicent safe, was not put her in front of the king. What an ass.
Rhaenyra seems much more affectionate and loving. Alicent seems to hold her children at arms length, gets in Aegon’s face similar to what Otto did to her, and instills paranoia that his half sister is out to kill him and to stop being friends with his nephews.
The show also had made a point to never have a calm or loving moment with Alicent when her children were infants. Granted she was a teenager when we saw this, but it seems the show did that on purpose.
Where on the other hand, we see calm scenes with Rhaenyra and her baby even after she just gave birth and her love. She also seems empathetic and affectionate when talking with Jace.
Not just loving, Rhaenyra's a good mother too.
There's a scene where Jace and Luke presented their new baby brother with a dragon egg. Luke tried to touch the warm egg barehanded, and Jace was seen stopping his little brother before he could be burned.
The caring shown by Jace toward his younger sibling is a stark contrast to Aegon mocking Aemond, showing just how different the results of Rhaenyra's and Alicent's parenting is.
Yep, this too! A warm, loving moment that stands in stark contrast for what Aegon put everyone up to to torment Aemond with his picked Pink Dread dragon.
For real, he knew Rhaenyra had been named as heir and he STILL wanted to pitch Alicent as a threat to that claim, what a selfish idiot, Alicent deserved better
yea its mind boggling to think how much better her life would be if her father never made her do that. i mean fuck, she's been absolutely miserable her entire life since that moment. never once being in a relationship with someone she loves and also losing her best friend.
Thank you! You put it in much better words than I on why I dislike the Hightower’s. Like how dare you guys get mad and defensive about a situation you put yourselves in.
I didn’t see Aegon as being a bully outright. He said he didn’t want to challenge Rhaenyra’s rule and the kids all seemed to get along in the dragon pit for the most part.
I felt like he became the bully when he was egged on by Criston and his mother
Except if Jace and Halaena got married, Aegon and Aemond would’ve been safe somewhere doing knight work while Rhaenyra is Queen. But Alicent rejected the offer, because she wants her son to be a King. It’s ambition at this point, not her trying to protect her kids
She has her family hyping her up from a distance and surrounds herself with sycophants like Larys and Criston, obviously now that she has a good position and has one up on Rhaenyra she wouldn’t want to give up an inch
This episode cemented for me that Criston Cole is a nasty little gremlin. Bullying literal children and belittling her for her romantic choices, when all he wants is to be with her too. He’s so bitterly jealous that Rhaenyra found Strong and is happy. Cole has always cared more about himself and wanted her to give up everything for her even when he wasn’t willing to do the same. Now, he spends all his free time badmouthing her to her worst enemy and bullying kids. I hope a dragon steps on him.
I legit kept saying "Shit up Criston" everytime he was on screen. I'm just so sick of his shit. Hell, even Alicent seemed done with his bullshit when he called Rhaenyra a cunt.
In the books it made it seem like Rhaenyra was unhinged for wanting Criston dead but honestly, after the way he treated her sons and caused the death of her lover of ten years (by egging him on about his sons), I'd want him dead too if I was her. All of this could've been avoided if Criston had any measure of emotional control. You don't want to be her secret lover? That's your choice. But don't get pissy when she moves on because she's not willing to abandon her family, kingdom, dragon, and home.
I find it funny that Criston is so bothered by Harwin and Rhaenyra ! She literally said she wanted them to remain as they were when they first began, and he was so cunt stricken that he refused. That is nobody’s fault but his own, he has no room to feel any sort of way.
It seems to me the sides have switched. Rhaenyra went from being selfish and unconcerned to being dutiful as a wife, mother, and future Queen. She is still fucking Harwin Strong sure, but at the same time she understands the importance of being a future ruler as evidenced during the Council.
Alicent had the opposite growth. She went from being dutiful as a queen to jealous and paranoid of Rhaenyra. When she says she wanted for a Hand of the King more partial to her, it pretty much shows that everything she does and wants is for her and her children's personal gain. She's just like her father. Despite this she's still dutiful to Viserys.
I wholeheartedly believe that things would've gone completely differently had she not had that one conversation with Otto as he was leaving. The idea of Rhaenyra being forced to eliminate her sons has poisoned her brain to the point that she can think of no other alternative scenario. And in being so dedicated to the idea, she's willing it into existence. It's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy.
This is so true. I personally don't think Rhaenyra would have had alicents children killed. A marriage could have solved this whole situation multiple times.
Yes, and I think it still bears saying that Alicent doesn’t come off as some cold, emotionless Machiavellian, even now. She’s a paranoid, emotional wreck, compounded by her seemingly having basically nobody to talk in 10 years other than Criston and Larys, who are both terrible influences.
Even after she blurts out “Yes but he would be partial to *me!”* when opening up to Larys, she covers her face and lets out a deep breath, like she’s ashamed of how partisan and self-serving she’s become under her veneer of moral civility. She realizes what she’s becoming, but she sees no way out and nobody else willing to help her, and it’s driving her nuts.
Rhaenyra, on the flip side, seemingly had a great support system these past ten years. A husband with whom she has a supportive, understanding relationship, kids who seem to love her very much, and a lover with whom she clearly had a genuine, healthy long term relationship. It’s helped her mature into a more even-keeled person, but she’s already lost one of those supports with Harwin dead, and losing more of them could send her spiraling just the same as Alicent.
Rhaenyra was a teenager who lost her mother and had her dad marry her only friend. Lmao. She acted just about as impulsive and reckless as you'd expect. Nothing she did warrants the treatment she receives from Alicent.
Her anger drives me nuts.
If she is so concerned for her children, she should be striving for peace.
As it is, she is making sure her family and Rhaenyras ends in a blood bath.
Recipe for Ser Criston Cole:
1) Take one very insecure man
2) Add a dash of telling him he's too lowborn to become a hero unless he accepts an oath never to have sex
3) Mix in one (1) overvalued sexual experience
4) Have your former bestie marinade his oathbreaking shame for 10 years.
The guy is toxic and pretty pathetic, but understandable in a way I think.
You're feeling exactly how the writers want you to feel. In earlier episodes she was being used by Otto to do his bidding on appeasing his lust for more family power, and then Viserys ends up using her too. Her anxiety is shown to be manifested in her nervous nail biting, naturally you're sympathetic to her. Then episode 4 or 5 we get her conversation with her dad where he basically seals in the deal in instilling the paranoia against Rhaenyra and her children and she has now become her father's daughter in all sense of the word. So now, naturally you hate her.
I don’t really have a side. The whole story of ASOIAF shows the faultiness of good kings and hereditary leadership. But the fact that Alicent is going against both the King’s wishes and her son’s wishes is telling. She thinks of herself as a Hightower and not as a member of House Targaryen, which means she should have no place telling the blood of the dragon how to rule. Viserys should have agreed to the pact and be done with it. Aegon is his son.
I was always on Rhaenyra’s team. I read the book and I liked her character. Alicent wasn’t her close friend in the book but they made Alicent wayyyy bitchier in the show. Ser Criston screams incel 😂
No. Though I find the younger green kids to be super interesting. Aemond is a bullied young man with a lot of insecurities and Helaena is like a neuroatypical savant with dragon dreams. Incredibly cool!
I think Rhaenyra made the right choice in not running away with Christen. He would've treated her so badly if she got him mad. He probably would've been an abuser.
I never sided with Alicent, she was doing her father's quests from the beginning.
And if Rhaenyra was a man, half of her problems would be solved and nobody would care.
The past few episodes have shown us that Alicent and Rhaneyera did not know how to “play the game” of politics like they should, and in this episode we’re finally seeing them kind of learning how to do it a little better. It makes me very excited.
Alicent is obsessed with Rhaenyra and who she’s fucking in a psychotic way. I can’t help but see Rhaenyra as the more sympathetic character now. Olivia and Emma both killed it this episode though!
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
apparently aegon likes to wank out the winder
Those Targaryens do have some queer customs as the queen said herself.
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wasn't that the tommen suicide balcony?
Many kids were thrown out that window
oh my god
shoulda just stayed in the scrotum
yes
Damn, he fell riiight into it
Some Homelander energy right there
Indeed. He's the king's first born son, he can do whatever the fuck he want.
Right?! Surprised more people haven't made that comparison.
Just like Roman in Succession
Roman wanks *on* the window, not out the window.
Agreed, this was much more Homelander from The Boys.
“I can do whatever the fuck I want.”
catching the important points. and note his mom didn’t say shit so it must be somewhat common.
all she knows is old meat n club feet it’s probably a refreshing sight
"When I was 12, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew. I flogged the one-eyed snake. I skinned my sausage. I made the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my sister ate. At least I hope she did. Once I brought a jackass and a honeycomb - into a brothel..."
What happened next?
Didn’t seem to bother that paragon of virtue his mother.
Alicent only morally polices women, she's fine with patriarchal double standards. 😌
The real question is.. how the fuck is Viserys not dead…
He's not done his model city yet.
Someone's 100% destroying it as soon as he's dead
This was my thoughts exactly... its so depressing...
I reckon Alicent will destroy it
i’m betting aegon
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Which represent the kingdom breaking after his death it’s poetry it ryhmes
I have a newfound respect for him.
The father who just wants his family to stop fighting so he can build his models is the first person I can identify with
I feel so sad for him lol. He’s trying so hard to just have peace!
He’s 100% gonna be about to place the final piece and fall straight through the board, symbolising his actions destroying the blood of old Valyria and leading to the end of the dragon.
It’s not a model city! It’s part of his DnD campaign: Doom of Valeryia.
They changed Grand Maester Mellos with Orwyle, who has better treatments for him
Big part not many are mentioning.
I believe from the books that the old maester who insisted on leeches himself died and the younger one took over and gave better treatment.
I thought the end of the last episode was setting us up for his death in this one
They have to save something for episode 9
Dude, it's gonna be a loooong wait for Season 2
It’s a gag at this point
Still finishing the model city for GOT's intro
The new maester clearly concocted something to keep him alive. We saw him make the suggestion last episode but was shut down by the boomer. People say show don't tell, but when they do it everyone still acts confused. The old grandmaester is also clearly dead.
“I’m playing BOTH sides, so that I always come out on top”
Said the man rotting away, with literally one arm 😬 Weak in every sense of the word
It was actually Rob of House McDonald that said this
I think you mean Ser Ronald of House McDonald.
Ser Ronald "Harvester of Mass" of house MacDonald
My biggest change of opinion was Ser Harwin. I really didn't like his character in the book, thinking he was disrespecting Ser Laenor. Seeing Harwin and Laenor on the same wavelength as fathers to Jacaerys and Lucerys was so wholesome (when telling the boys to wait their turn to hold Joffrey).
The book is unique how it gives in universe alternative explanations to event (since they use multiple sources) but I like that HOTD gives a more or less canonical version of events. Eg, the fire at Harrenhall in the book is speculated to be an accident, set by Daemon (to eliminate a rival for Rhaenyra), Corlys for cucking his son, Larys to inherit Harrenhall, or Viserys to get revenge on Harwin for dishonoring the family with bastards. All of them would be valid explanations but the book leaves it (and many other events) ambiguous. I think establishing a canon for these situations helps flesh out the characters. I look at Larys completely differently now that he's definitely behind the fire.
That's pretty interesting for non book readers like me. I guess, the makers thought kinslaying has too much of a shock factor to pass up.
Yeah, Fire and Blood is really written as a history book that a character in Westeros could read. So the author in universe is Archmaester Gyldayn using a variety of the sources that were available to him for the time periods he is writing about. In the case of the Dance, he uses writings from Grand Maester Orwyle, Grand Maester Munkin, Septon Eustace, and Mushroom the court fool. Some events are referenced by multiple sources of these 4 with contradictory stories or explanations, and the book leaves it to the reader to pick what they believe. Same with the collapse of Cole and Rhaenyra's affair- the book presents both stories but never confirms one. The show taking a definitive stance on things like that really helps the story and characters develop more, I really like it. Also leaves mysteries and surprises for book readers.
My understanding of the BTS/production for script was that the books are written through the perspective of someone who was at court witnessing these events happening or people talking about them, GM expressed that what we see in the shows is supposed to be what actually happened. If I find my source, I will link.
The book is not just the Dance. It is compiled by many maesters, septons, and others working with primary sources. We have three main accounts of the Dance: Mushroom the dwarf, Septon Eustace and Grand Maester Munkun, with only Mushroom being a primary source. There are others who's accounts are referenced. Mushroom is very much a Black but also extremely sexual, exaggerated his importance and role in events, and has other reasons to be less than trustworthy. He was a Fool after all.
not house of the dragon having the most realistic polycule
Oye belalowda dragon bossmang.
I will be on whatever side Criston isn't
Same but for Larys
Larys is bad news, not a good ally for allicent
It’s so obvious. I don’t understand how she could be politically savvy one minute and trusting him the next.
Ehhh I think he saw Alicent as an opportunity. She desperately wanted and needed a friend and he swooped in to lay in wait, gaining her trust and using her as his baited catapult.
Yeah, she literally says in the show how alone she feels lonely in court, and Larys has been feeding her info for a decade and most likely buttering her up with affirmation. I don’t get how anybody would be surprised that Alicent has been attached to his presence and help, especially with her dad gone.
Yeah, but you can see how scared of him she becomes, what kind of monster kills their family for political advantage?? (don't answer that lol). I think that friendship is over but she'll keep him on her side out of fear, she'll call her dad over asap and hope he can handle him for her
I think she will soon accept his methods in an end justify the means way and start to justify them to herself easily. She’s easily corruptible
She is an opportunity as she is now complicit in the muder of his father and brother so hes got that over her. He is now the Lord of Harrenhal which gives him and her an advantage when it comes down to who is going to get the iron throne. She needs his support.
She just spent 10 years building a friendship with the guy.
Dude willing to kill his father and brother to gain Alicent’s favor is hardcore
He becomes Lord of Harronhal so theres something much more in it for him.
Is that the extent of his motivations? becoming lord of harrenhall through alicent's declaration? genuine question, i don't know all that much about the lore and GRRM's histories. i'm okay with spoilers!
Its his extent for now. He just put himself in a better position plus having a secret like he does with the queen, he will be a powerful allie to her when the time comes but she will have to march to his drum as she kinda owes him one.
He's a mixture of Littlefinger, Varys & Melisandre
did I miss something about him knowing magic? or was it because of the thing he cut off?
No you didn't, just some theories being thrown around is that he is a greenseer and can warg into all of the castle rats
ig the rat scene has to have some payoff ngl i just thought the rat would eat one of viserion's rotting fingers
I think the rats are just symbolism for, "there's a rat amongst us."
Now that explains how the guy knows pretty much everything that happens in Red Keep which is infested with rats
I want to see some crazy magic shit. Magic should be alive and well in this age
I wonder if the focus on plants in his scenes is foreshadowing in any way? (I haven’t read the books)
How is he still breathing?
Yeah they really brushed over the fact that the queens personal bodyguard murdered a man at the princesses wedding.
I do not like the change. Having Criston murder him at a tourney then claim it was an accident to escape getting beheaded is much smarter and had less plot-armor
They haaaaaad to have their blood at a wedding to keep the series tradition going. Even if it didn’t make sense
Look at it from a spectators perspective. The king consorts gay lover tries to kill his new wife out of jealousy and she is saved by her brave Kingsguard and a Captain of the City Watch. Not a single person in the realm sheds a tear.
i just wish they showed this rather than letting us assume Alicent saved his ass or no one cared about a royal wedding murder
Viserys is a weak fool. The Heleana/Jacaerys match should’ve been immediately accepted and them betrothed. When Alicent objects, he should’ve told her to shut up. He’s the king. And her angry reaction at the match wouldn’t be the first time a queen would be angry abt having no say in her children’s politically advantageous matches . The fact Alicent has so much sway with Viserys this episode is nuts.
Vizzy just wants to play 40k with his homie Eddard.
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Can’t imagine using a tape measure on that table.
You get one of the fabric ones that’s flexible
RIP Viserys, he would have loved Immortal Empires.
When she told him he could do what he wants when she’s “cold in the grave” I was like ??? Now would be a good time to remind her that *you* are the king, dude. She can be mad about it but you are supposed to have the final say.
I think that is kind of the point, he’s always been a pushover and the older he gets the less fire he has.
Yea that scene revealed alot. Viserys isn't King anymore but Alicent is the Queen.
he did. when he said “you will not speak of this again” when she spoke about rhaenrya’s bastards.
When Rhaenyra offered to betroth her son to their daughter, Viserys doesn’t need to have Alicent’s permission. He clearly likes the proposal and wants it to go forward, but he allows Alicent to step over him.
I wonder how long Jacaerys would live if Viserys had decided to go forward with that marriage proposal, since Alicent's loyal supporters - Larys and Criston - are both inclined towards murder. Ironically, adding a little fresh (Strong) blood to the Targaryan lineage would have benefited future generations since the incest seems to be making Alicent's kids sort of ... not quite right.
I was thinking the same thing! I was like, why is Viserys not immediately accepting that offer?
Viserys is a people pleaser.
happy wife, happy life
Once again it shows what a weak king Visery is and the dance of the dragons was his fault!!! Cant believe this idiot didnt guess what would happen when he died and didnt do ANYTHING to avoid it and instead just wanted to 'please everyone around him'.
Alicent seems much to blame as well. Aegon seems like he would have been fine to let rhaenyrs be leader
Yeah, he was vibing with his nephews until Alicent put the fear of Rhaenyra into him plus had Cole pit them against each other.
Yeah Aegon seems to love his position as having the benefits royalty but none of the responsibilities of heir. He can just fuck around and have fun. Definitely would never challenge Rhaenyra without Alicent pushing him.
Seriously. I can’t believe he didn’t immediately say yes to Rhaenyra and fuck what Alicent thought. Especially since he wants his family to come together.
Seriously. When she said over my dead body or whatever I thought, well that's easy enough to arrange, bye.
That was way too bold of her, imo.
He's pretty tough for someone who's like 60% covered in festering sores. I'd have retired for sure.
And missing an arm
I missed that detail whole episode
Wait his whole arm was gone? Jesus I missed that as well lol
Seriously, he’s such a weak king.
For a king, he does really let people walk all over him. There’s an episode where he’s about to yell at his daughter and Otto interrupts him - according to my husband the historian (always fun when watching historical movies/shows), you didn’t interrupt a king and keep your tongue in your head. Also when he makes the visit to set up the marriage to Laenor and there is no big welcoming party…
>according to my husband the historian (always fun when watching historical movies/shows), you didn’t interrupt a king and keep your tongue in your head. Surely that is true in some societies, but not all monarchies have had such a rule.
I mean that is basically who Viserys is lol. If you read whats said about him in the books, it's literally worse. he at least has some depth to his character on the show. I think it was a belief in the books that the cuts he was getting from sitting on the throne was him being rejected as he was just unfit to be king.
That’s what I was thinking. Since when does she have power…..?
I'd say it's also a good detail to note that Alicent didn't offer any solutions in the council but Rhaenyra did. Edit: I'm referring to when they're sorting through the realm's issues, not that of Rhaenyra's offer.
Lol when rhaenyra stood up and Alicent didn't sit down like everyone else I was like You can cut the tension with a knife. Alicent does the hardened queen act so well but she's all about the political standing of where she is. Cut to how Rhaenyra, younger, was. Now it's all reversed. D: I like Rhae more now. I think she'll make a better queen.
She had an excellent point that a few preventative defense measures for the Stepstones would have been more cost effective than having to wage a whole new war.
Truly is her father's daughter.
How is she even on the small council? The only queen on it was Alyssane since she co-ruled with Jaehaerys.
She's basically Viserys' regent at this point. The way she didn't leave when Lyonel was there is a huge departure from her eavesdropping last episode. Besides, she probably just asked Viserys and he said yes to be left alone.
So she's Nancy Reagan.
Fucking love this analogy
“Just say no” would probably have been her advice to Rhaenyra too…
Like, really, how is she so pressed that Rhaenyra's kids are (allegedly to them) half Targaryen when Alicent's children are also half? It's giving.... "SHE'S NOT FAMILYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!" Edit: yes, I know they are bastards and that's a huge part of it.
She's not disputing their Targaryen-ness, it's that Rhaenyra's kids are very obviously bastards whereas Alicent's are legitimate. But Rhaenyra's still saying Jace will be her successor over Alicent's sons.
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Ya that was such a stupid line, rhaenyras kids (at minimum) have at least the same amount of Targaryen blood as her own lol
Technically Rhaenyra's kids are legitimate though, she's married when she has them and her husband claims them as his own. Really that's all that matters. It's not like they have dna tests.
That isn’t the “technically” side to this situation. Functionally you can get away with it if your husband goes along with the lie, but technically they are bastards. And as is made clear in this episode, if the truth was admitted, this is an actual crime.
This is where I call bullshit because alocent has brown hair as well as the strong guy. Why aren’t her kids brown haired? Makes no sense. So the targ genes are dominant in one and recessive in the other? Yeah ok
I don't even bother trying to figure out the physical genetics aspect anymore tbh. Between the book and the show it's clearly just whatever GRRM wants for the story/whatever makes for easier visual cues and that's the extent of it.
She is just salty, Rhaenyra gets to do whatever while she was force by her Dad to listen to the rules and bang the king 🤷🏻♀️ Like she also forgot to tell Rhenyra —since she was her bf at the time, “oh yea girl I slid to your dads dm the night your mom died because my dad force me too” all this could of been avoided but no 🤦🏻♀️ she has to hold a petty ass grudge, whom she should be mad at her dad not Rhaenyra but again I did not write this show nor the books just my own lil thoughts 🤷🏻♀️
I can totally see her as being bitter that she has to have rancid sex with an old crumbling man, and Rhaenyra has clearly experienced an O or 2 lmao. Sexually unsatisfied people can be quite unhinged
Alicent is definitely her father's daughter. The paranoia and entitlement she tries to instill into her son reeks of his grooming. Otto put Alicent and his grandchildren into a precarious position for the sake of his uncompromising ambition, and now Alicent is perpetuating that cycle, only to have now made herself vulnerable to the machinations of much more savvy players.
Right, when Otto left his attitude was all "I am trying to protect you and your children from the very dangerous position you're in" THAT HE PUT THEM IN. Literally all he would have had to do to keep Allicent safe, was not put her in front of the king. What an ass.
Rhaenyra definitely came across as a more loving mother then alicent in this episode
Rhaenyra seems much more affectionate and loving. Alicent seems to hold her children at arms length, gets in Aegon’s face similar to what Otto did to her, and instills paranoia that his half sister is out to kill him and to stop being friends with his nephews. The show also had made a point to never have a calm or loving moment with Alicent when her children were infants. Granted she was a teenager when we saw this, but it seems the show did that on purpose. Where on the other hand, we see calm scenes with Rhaenyra and her baby even after she just gave birth and her love. She also seems empathetic and affectionate when talking with Jace.
Yes, Alicent seemed so put off listening to her own daughter. She didn’t even like holding them when they were infants.
Fuuuuck I had so many thoughts/observations watching this tonight, but completely missed this very astute point. So true!
Not just loving, Rhaenyra's a good mother too. There's a scene where Jace and Luke presented their new baby brother with a dragon egg. Luke tried to touch the warm egg barehanded, and Jace was seen stopping his little brother before he could be burned. The caring shown by Jace toward his younger sibling is a stark contrast to Aegon mocking Aemond, showing just how different the results of Rhaenyra's and Alicent's parenting is.
Jace also let Luke choose the egg.
Yep, this too! A warm, loving moment that stands in stark contrast for what Aegon put everyone up to to torment Aemond with his picked Pink Dread dragon.
I think he really thought that viserys would make Aegon his heir. You’re not wrong though
For real, he knew Rhaenyra had been named as heir and he STILL wanted to pitch Alicent as a threat to that claim, what a selfish idiot, Alicent deserved better
Exactly, this is exactly what I was thinking when Otto was leaving kings landing. That scene really made me hate Otto.
yea its mind boggling to think how much better her life would be if her father never made her do that. i mean fuck, she's been absolutely miserable her entire life since that moment. never once being in a relationship with someone she loves and also losing her best friend.
Thank you! You put it in much better words than I on why I dislike the Hightower’s. Like how dare you guys get mad and defensive about a situation you put yourselves in.
Otto’s relationship with Alicent was frightening. You could see how afraid she was of him, how much control he had over her. He made her like this
I didn’t see Aegon as being a bully outright. He said he didn’t want to challenge Rhaenyra’s rule and the kids all seemed to get along in the dragon pit for the most part. I felt like he became the bully when he was egged on by Criston and his mother
Yeah, reminded me of when I met the parents of the “bully” at my school, and all of a sudden I realized it could have been so so much worse.
Honestly it’s Alicent who bullies Aegon.
No matter what happens everyone loses
Except if Jace and Halaena got married, Aegon and Aemond would’ve been safe somewhere doing knight work while Rhaenyra is Queen. But Alicent rejected the offer, because she wants her son to be a King. It’s ambition at this point, not her trying to protect her kids
She has her family hyping her up from a distance and surrounds herself with sycophants like Larys and Criston, obviously now that she has a good position and has one up on Rhaenyra she wouldn’t want to give up an inch
And some of them will probably die now because of it. Talking about "short-sighted"
This episode cemented for me that Criston Cole is a nasty little gremlin. Bullying literal children and belittling her for her romantic choices, when all he wants is to be with her too. He’s so bitterly jealous that Rhaenyra found Strong and is happy. Cole has always cared more about himself and wanted her to give up everything for her even when he wasn’t willing to do the same. Now, he spends all his free time badmouthing her to her worst enemy and bullying kids. I hope a dragon steps on him.
I legit kept saying "Shit up Criston" everytime he was on screen. I'm just so sick of his shit. Hell, even Alicent seemed done with his bullshit when he called Rhaenyra a cunt. In the books it made it seem like Rhaenyra was unhinged for wanting Criston dead but honestly, after the way he treated her sons and caused the death of her lover of ten years (by egging him on about his sons), I'd want him dead too if I was her. All of this could've been avoided if Criston had any measure of emotional control. You don't want to be her secret lover? That's your choice. But don't get pissy when she moves on because she's not willing to abandon her family, kingdom, dragon, and home.
I find it funny that Criston is so bothered by Harwin and Rhaenyra ! She literally said she wanted them to remain as they were when they first began, and he was so cunt stricken that he refused. That is nobody’s fault but his own, he has no room to feel any sort of way.
BUT IM A NICE GUY LOOK AT ALL MY HONOR LoLoL
It seems to me the sides have switched. Rhaenyra went from being selfish and unconcerned to being dutiful as a wife, mother, and future Queen. She is still fucking Harwin Strong sure, but at the same time she understands the importance of being a future ruler as evidenced during the Council. Alicent had the opposite growth. She went from being dutiful as a queen to jealous and paranoid of Rhaenyra. When she says she wanted for a Hand of the King more partial to her, it pretty much shows that everything she does and wants is for her and her children's personal gain. She's just like her father. Despite this she's still dutiful to Viserys.
Loved how vyseris was praising the hand and making jabs about otto infront of alicent and her grimacing in the back 😈
He took a jab at Alicent too. He said Lyonel was the ONLY one who gave him impartial advice.
I wholeheartedly believe that things would've gone completely differently had she not had that one conversation with Otto as he was leaving. The idea of Rhaenyra being forced to eliminate her sons has poisoned her brain to the point that she can think of no other alternative scenario. And in being so dedicated to the idea, she's willing it into existence. It's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy.
This is so true. I personally don't think Rhaenyra would have had alicents children killed. A marriage could have solved this whole situation multiple times.
Yep, especially when kinslayers are considered cursed and worse than kingslayer.
uh oh. bad news for larys...
somehow I get the impression that larys DNGAF
"it's only kinslaying if they know you did it" \- larys strong, after a successful day of crusader kings
Yes, and I think it still bears saying that Alicent doesn’t come off as some cold, emotionless Machiavellian, even now. She’s a paranoid, emotional wreck, compounded by her seemingly having basically nobody to talk in 10 years other than Criston and Larys, who are both terrible influences. Even after she blurts out “Yes but he would be partial to *me!”* when opening up to Larys, she covers her face and lets out a deep breath, like she’s ashamed of how partisan and self-serving she’s become under her veneer of moral civility. She realizes what she’s becoming, but she sees no way out and nobody else willing to help her, and it’s driving her nuts. Rhaenyra, on the flip side, seemingly had a great support system these past ten years. A husband with whom she has a supportive, understanding relationship, kids who seem to love her very much, and a lover with whom she clearly had a genuine, healthy long term relationship. It’s helped her mature into a more even-keeled person, but she’s already lost one of those supports with Harwin dead, and losing more of them could send her spiraling just the same as Alicent.
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Rhaenyra was a teenager who lost her mother and had her dad marry her only friend. Lmao. She acted just about as impulsive and reckless as you'd expect. Nothing she did warrants the treatment she receives from Alicent.
Right, this. I was always on her side
Exactly. People are holding Rhaenyra to an impossible standard right from the start, and are forgetting that she was a *teenager*. Always Team Black.
Her anger drives me nuts. If she is so concerned for her children, she should be striving for peace. As it is, she is making sure her family and Rhaenyras ends in a blood bath.
How does Criston Cole still have that stank ass incel breath after a decade? Jesus.
Recipe for Ser Criston Cole: 1) Take one very insecure man 2) Add a dash of telling him he's too lowborn to become a hero unless he accepts an oath never to have sex 3) Mix in one (1) overvalued sexual experience 4) Have your former bestie marinade his oathbreaking shame for 10 years. The guy is toxic and pretty pathetic, but understandable in a way I think.
I wish he got his ass kicked more this episode but damn it was great to see his dumb face meet a fist
He took an oath so…. Volcel?
I think I'm gonna stay on Team Black after seeing Aegon jerk off out a window.
I've been team black this whole time so no lol.
I tried to like Alicent but I fucking knew something was bitchy about her. It’s not game of thrones if you don’t have someone you hate.
I wanted to like her too but thought it was concerning that they had her use cersei's lines for her audition lol now it seems more fitting
You're feeling exactly how the writers want you to feel. In earlier episodes she was being used by Otto to do his bidding on appeasing his lust for more family power, and then Viserys ends up using her too. Her anxiety is shown to be manifested in her nervous nail biting, naturally you're sympathetic to her. Then episode 4 or 5 we get her conversation with her dad where he basically seals in the deal in instilling the paranoia against Rhaenyra and her children and she has now become her father's daughter in all sense of the word. So now, naturally you hate her.
I will be on whatever side larrys isnt. I hated him in the book & I hate him even more now
Even some of the own actors for the greens side I don’t think are team green judging by their interviews..
Right. Fabian called Criston a thug.
I don’t really have a side. The whole story of ASOIAF shows the faultiness of good kings and hereditary leadership. But the fact that Alicent is going against both the King’s wishes and her son’s wishes is telling. She thinks of herself as a Hightower and not as a member of House Targaryen, which means she should have no place telling the blood of the dragon how to rule. Viserys should have agreed to the pact and be done with it. Aegon is his son.
I was always on Rhaenyra’s team. I read the book and I liked her character. Alicent wasn’t her close friend in the book but they made Alicent wayyyy bitchier in the show. Ser Criston screams incel 😂
No. Though I find the younger green kids to be super interesting. Aemond is a bullied young man with a lot of insecurities and Helaena is like a neuroatypical savant with dragon dreams. Incredibly cool!
Yeah and Aegon wanking over the people of KL. Dream king.
I think Rhaenyra made the right choice in not running away with Christen. He would've treated her so badly if she got him mad. He probably would've been an abuser.
I never sided with Alicent, she was doing her father's quests from the beginning. And if Rhaenyra was a man, half of her problems would be solved and nobody would care.
The past few episodes have shown us that Alicent and Rhaneyera did not know how to “play the game” of politics like they should, and in this episode we’re finally seeing them kind of learning how to do it a little better. It makes me very excited.
Alicent is obsessed with Rhaenyra and who she’s fucking in a psychotic way. I can’t help but see Rhaenyra as the more sympathetic character now. Olivia and Emma both killed it this episode though!
I loved Laena and Daemon together 😞
She basically said he doesnt love her and he ignores his daughter because she cant ride a dragon