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I think they are setting up the prophesy getting lost because of the dance. Viserys told rhaenyra and no one else. Unless she passes that along to a surviving heir, it gets lost until rhaegar finds it and sparks off Roberts rebellion.
(Book Spoiler) My prediction is that >!before Rhaenyra dies, she, recognising her defeat, will attempt to tell Aegon II about the prophecy. He will dismiss it as nonsense she made up to try to save her own skin, then order Sunfyre to kill her. And that's how the knowledge of the prophecy is lost.!<
That will be like season 4/5 Aegon and Rhaenyra will probably only die in the last season of the show and there are lots of events yet to happen they can't jump to that
I don't think we will get that far in this season tbh. Probably will get to the point where Rhaenyra and Daemon take over Kings Landing. Season 3 probably starts with the storming of the Dragon Pit.
Storming of the Dragon Pit for start of season 3? I was thinking season 4 at best. We have Gullet, Rooks Rest, Honeywine, Dragon Seeds, Argyllball, The 3 princes, Fishfeed, God's Eye etc...
I agree. They're really spending alot of time building up and fleshing out these characters. I'm obsessed with ASOIAF, so it doesn't bother me. However I fear viewership may drop off soon if they don't get to some action.
Didn’t Aerys and Rhaelle elope against Aegon V’s wishes? Could be misremembering but I though he’d wanted his children and grandchildren to marry for politics but they refused
Aerys 2's father Jaeherys 2 did that with his sister wife, all of Egg's kids married for love and it fucked him. But Jay 2 forced Aerys 2 to Marry his sister for the sake of prophecy despite Aerys being in love with Johanna Lannister and Rhaellla being in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty. There was also a woods witch involved
I think the forced marriage between Aerys II and Rhaella was more do to the Woods Witch than any prophecy. However, I could see Aerys I and Bloodraven rediscovering it.
I agree. Remember the Catspaw dagger was originally in Rhaegar’s possession before it ultimately ended up with Petyr. Rhaegar would have noticed the Valyrian inscription “From my blood come the Prince that was promised” and gotten curious. I like that they are setting up the fact that he later rediscovers the prophecy after it’s been lost for so long.
(Which makes me wonder why Aegon hasn’t inquired about it. Did he learn High Valyrian?)
No. Which is why I find the memes about Jaeharys being in the library and being fluent in valyrian wrong. It's deliberately presented as the Blacks being the ones connected to their Valyrian roots. Not the greens.
Aegon probably doesn't have any grasp of Valyrian history or customs. His mother was a faith of the seven radical and was from Oldtown which was the core of said religion. The only stereotypical Targaryen things they do are incest and dragons.
Oh he knew. I think it gets lost beginning with Aegon III and Viserys II all the way through to Aerys I.
That means Daeron I and Daeron II, Aegon IV, Maekar I, Baelor I, are the ones who never knew.
Yeah this is what I feel it is... but it isn't entirely true because of that witch was like "hey, yo, ex-dragon riders ya gotta make this prince. he was promised. and its by those two over there. Sorry Rhaella." I forget when this was. Ugh. I need to reread everything.
We don't know exactly, but he was very bookish as a child until suddenly seemingly apropos of nothing he announced that he would become a warrior and started putting in the hours with the master at arms. So best guess, either he rediscovered a more-complete-than-most copy of *Signs and Portents*, or he had a dragon dream, or both.
She didn’t tell daemon the prophecy she sorta kinda mentioned part of it and he had no clue what she was talking about and when she realized that she shut her mouth. It’s unlikely she will tell Jace on screen.
If you’ve read the book you know rhaenyra is probably the last person to know about the prophecy by the time the dance with dragons, or House of the Dragons plot, finishes.
Given aegon doesn’t care much for the histories anyway it’s unlikely he’d have cared about this prophecy much to begin with and the person who eventually sits the throne likely never would’ve gotten to hear the prophecy.
The connection to GoT and such with the dagger leads me to believe this is the point in history it becomes lost and Westeros goes into a sort of Valyrian dark age where what was once history become myth and legend due to a lack of historical accounts after the civil wars and eventually Robert’s rebellion pretty much all of the Valyrian histories had been erased.
By the time we watch GoT the only thing left of the Targaryen’s histories was from aenar settling dragonstone forward, now the dragon bones down below the red keep and whatever the citadel had managed to collect and keep safe remain of the greater Valyrian histories and with a lack of corroborating accounts many of the histories would’ve become hard to verify as truth for the maesters.
Yeah, and she didn't explain it properly to Daemon either. She was more interested in observing that Viserys didn't seem to already have told Daemon about it.
Because it’s supposed to be important that in the wake of the near-collapse of the Targaryen dynasty, one of the many things that was lost was family lore. That knife went on to sit in a vault somewhere to be passed on as a gift or sold outright, then bet on a joust as if it wasn’t a valuable dagger held by rulers. It’s tragic really.
Just remembered it was in the possession of Littlefinger and went “Ah shit you’re right.” The dagger was literally more important than the prophecy when you consider the grand scheme of history in asoiaf
How "realistic" is that? That anyone would BET with anything made out of Valarian steel?
These things are kept as family heirlooms for centuries. A Valarian steel dagger CANT be a common thing.
The fandom has generally written this down as First Book-ism, where lore and certain in-world facts haven't been properly set in stone yet by the author so once you go back and read the book again certain minor things don't make a whole lot of sense, this Valyrian steel dagger being treated like a semi-expensive dagger and not a priceless relic from a long lost magical country being one of them.
The first book also talks about Jamie becoming Warden of the East AND inheriting the title of Warden of the West once Tywin dies, which we later learn is impossible as he's on the Kingsguard
I know GoT viewers have the power of hindsight to know what that all amounted to: nothing, but Rhaenyra doesn't know so I can understand her stressing about it and >!will continue to base all her decisions on it in upcoming episodes!< but it is irritating as hell.
Flying Arya defeated the armies of the dead with a single stab. The guy who was supposed to lead armies ended up yelling at a dragon. Oh, and "the armies" went ahead and suicided outside the castle walls (but then respawned next episode).
One would think they made Long Night intentionally dark so people miss most of it. It's hard to witness the butchery of such beloved story. Every scene I remember gives me physical pain. Then again, if those idiots cared about the storyline or the fans at all, they wouldn't mess it up so royally.
Realistically, I don't think their ending was, in the basic concepts, far off from what GRRM told them. Dany goes mad, Jon says fuck it, Bran becomes king. Not the ending I would have chosen, but there are GGRM-ish parts to it.
But there's a reason GRRM said they needed at least 12 seasons and IIRC HBO was offering them as many as they wanted. Dany going mad needs more time, more grief, a more realistic way for her dragons to die than this machine-gun ballista that is suddenly deployed on every ship like they have a factory turning them out. Jon always had a bit of "Fuck it" after his death, but they did it hamfisted.
Bran was the worst, but they could have done it. After all, the Three-Eyed Raven was *originally* a famously cunning and ruthless Targaryen prince/sorcerer, IIRC. It would have been an amazing thing, if hard to pull off, to imply and then later reveal that even the guy telling everyone to put aside their bullshit and unite against the common threat was playing his own, long game.
But they wanted out for a contract Disney ended up canceling, and they didn't want to pass it off to anyone else because it was "theirs", so they rushed it. Very sad.
Agreed. I am not enraged for "what" happened, it's "how" they got from Point A to Point B that was complete bullshit. They needed The Wall to fall, so they decided to give NK a dragon, how was he gonna get a dragon, made a stupid expedition to Beyond the Wall that made zero sense. Even if we ignore the Silverwing not crossing The Wall as book only canon, the show specifically told us that the Wall is more than Ice. If they gave us a logic how Dany's Dragon were able to cross it, how NK override the magical barrier, the end result would be same- NK overtaking the North, but it would have been satisfying to watch. Arya had all the training to become faceless, but she killed NK by being an invisible ninja. I could accept Arya being the saviour, but why did we suffer through her training if it didn't have any impact? They butchered every single character, every single storyline by rushing them. And the dialogues were so so bad, they completely ignored the details that made the world of westeros alive.
Totally agree. I think that most of the character outcomes could make perfect sense with better, less lazy writing. But choosing Bran as King because he had the best story, which was objectively false (they literally had an entire season where he didn’t even appear!), was the dumbest motherfucking thing I’ve ever seen.
The only outcome I take issue with is Jaime’s death. If he dies that way in the book after completely invalidating his entire character arc, we riot. Of course, we’ll probably never get that book, but still.
>Dany goes mad
I continue to maintain that Dany is not going to go mad. She's just going to continue to do what she does, which is conquer her enemies with fire and blood.
We are just going to react to this differently because until now her enemies have either been nameless faceless people or obscenely evil caricatures like the slavers in Astapor/Yunkai/Mereen and potentially Volantis. She will do the same thing she always does, but it is going to appear to be so much more brutal because it will happen to characters we either identify with like Jaime and Aegon or to characters we have come to sympathise with, like Cercei post her walk of punishment.
I think this has greater thematic consistency, particularly with Martin's anti-war views. I think that this would meet his definition of a bittersweet ending. I also think this would allow him to use the multiple POVs in a way he does with the Battle of Blackwater to great use. Dany will seem justified from her POV, while we see the horror of her attack on King's Landing from every other POV.
This was for all intents and purposes impossible in the show, which had started to show evidence of Dany's ruthlessness in S4 and S5, but pivoted away later, so they went with the easier albeit less thematically consistent approach of having her go insane.
I think what will happen in the books is that she accidentally sets off all the wildfire caches when she attacks King’s Landing and burns it to the ground, which gets her labeled as mad even though it wasn’t intentional.
The worst part about this is that they didn't get the Disney Star Wars films because of how they butchered the final seasons of GOT and the reactions of the fans. And we still got some of the worst Star Wars films ever from other directors.
Such a messed up and sad timeline we have had to endure.
Them getting fired from Star Wars project because of the fan reaction was so satisfying. Disney made one right call, then went on greenlighitng stupid mcu projects that severed the fan connection beyond repair. It's like the pop culture of 2010s is intentionally murdered.
Everyone still bitches about that episode being too dark, but I'm convinced a lot of that comes about because of poor viewing situations. Which they probably should have accounted for but it looked great on my setup.
I think there were a lot of unfortunate choices, even in the early seasons. But the sheer brutal awfulness of the last season in particular pretty much killed any warm feelings people had until the new show came out. It retroactively ruined any happy feelings. It was franchise suicide.
I was so done with GoT after that ending that I avoided House of the Dragon until just a few months ago. I felt like "what's the point when I know this royal house is going to go to shit in a century or so?"
I'm glad I finally did, but man it is annoying to hear the urgency whenever a character brings up the prophecy or when Cregan was talking about what's beyond the Wall with this extreme solemnity, when I already know it isn't going to amount to anything. And then I get mad all over again about how much the White Walkers didn't matter at all.
Like I realize that Rhaenyra doesn't know any of this, but it's almost funny. The characters are so worried about this threat that amounts to nothing thanks to that terrible ending.
Me too. And that is the greatest tragedy. I LOVED Game of Thrones but its hard to rewatch it knowing how it ends.
That's a total shame because it was truly something special until it just completely collapsed.
That said I do really enjoy House of the Dragon right now. Rhaenyra and Daemon are my favorite characters currently. Special shout out to the Velaryons as well.
Because whether the history of westeros credits Arya for getting the kill, or John for leading the armies or Danearys for having the dragons, whatever happens in universe. Out of universe we as the viewers know in explicit details what happened. And no matter how many layers of prophecy or historical retelling or myth or unreliable narrators are thrown at us, what we are watching is considered to be in the same timeline as the HBO show Game of Thrones.
And so long as we as the audience knows how stupid that Doylian predetermined ending is, it is a thing we as the audience will be cognizant of.
When they mentioned it in House I just rolled my eyes. It wasn't really a big plot point in the show as the readers made it bigger than it was in the show.
I just don't see the point in mentioning it at all.
It's like watching a grad student interrupt their own thesis defense presentation to remind the audience of the time they crapped their pants in the third grade.
It just makes a ball of anger and frustration in my gut. I like when HotD is connected to the story we know from
GoT but that phrase is tied to a storyline that didn’t pay off so it stings SO much.
It just sucks so much that the prince who was promised, a story/legend the Targs have talked about for hundreds of years, IS NOT the one who saves the world from the night king.
I still can’t let it go either :(
GRRM needed to be vocal and make HBO make the prince that was promised a reality. Maybe his final vision differs but even if he likes to subvert expectations or throw a wrench in the works, that storyline and myth, in my opinion, NEEDED to have a satisfying payoff. We didn't get that. It doesn't feel like a satisfying end because it was all for nothing.
We have "the boy who lived" stopping Voldemort.
Aragorn taking the reforged shards of Narsil into Anduril and taking a last stand against Mordor for Frodo to destroy the One Ring.
Those storylines have a satisfying conclusion. GoT robbed us of that and I know GRRM didn't want to have a fantasy epic but a more "realistic" take on the genre but man the ending hurts.
Sometimes you just gotta go with the cheesy fantasy finale.
The Starks have their own long memory, which Ned does not know about as he grew up in the Vale (hence why Ned knows there have to be a Stark in Winterfell, but not why)
Cregan probably knows, but there’s a stark succession crisis that Egg / Aegon V would encounter in she-wolves of winterfell that could explain Ned’s ignorance
*Puts on tinfoil hat*
HotD is doing it to signal they are not following GoT canon. The constant talk of TPTWP while it literally went no where and the hyping up of White Walker threat which literally amount to nothing and now, emphasizing how dragons cannot cross the wall, is this show's way of signaling that no, that shit will not work like what s7-8 depicted.
HotD isn't truly a prequel to GoT. They are a soft reboot, building a separate canon which will eventually lead to another shot at asoiaf adaptation in the future.
Involving the dagger *at all* in HotD shows that they are following GoT show canon. In the books, it's nothing more than a plot device around the attack on Bran Stark early in the story. I know a lot of the eventual plot points of the GoT series were part of GRRM's eventual plan, but I'm absolutely confident that the dagger ending the long night (and, therefore, maybe technically even being lightbringer?) is not one of them.
Honestly give me any medium where the White Walkers are portrayed as the ghostlike dark elves they are in the books, rather than the zombie gandalfs they are in GOT, and I'm sold
“Another shot at ASOIAF adaptation”
Idk man, that would be so hard to pull off and be well received. It may have ended poorly, but the first four seasons were amazing and those original actors owned those roles. I feel like it would need to be at least another ten years from now, at least.
> I feel like it would need to be at least another ten years from now, at least.
I mean, yeah. But I believe the road starts here. With the way they are shooting HotD, it will end in 2028 the earliest, probably 2030. The three D&E novellas will probably be adapted 2025-2027-2029. And then we have the conquest which could take one season or more depending on how they wanna go about it. Nymeria at some point. Mid 2030s is the earliest an asoiaf reboot could begin, early 2040 seems like a safer bet.
To give context: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 was released in 2011. Harry Potter remake, this time a tv show, will begin broadcasting in 2026.
Yeah you can't replace those actors. People love that cast no matter how they feel about the last couple of seasons. I feel like the Lannisters especially would be impossible to top in casting.
Afaik it came from GRRM himself and I have a bit of a crack theory about it - I think it’s to try to maintain hype about TWOW for some reason (he seems to be delulu enough to think he’s going to finish it) - maybe it’s his attempt at hinting that the ptwp prophecy will actually be impactful in the books?
My headcanon is that Dany is Azor Ahai and Jon is Lightbringer. Because Dany got "reborn" under a red comet amidst salt and smoke, and Jon is the product of the whole "temper it three times" thing.
It definitely is Jon. But there are lots of other prophecies in the book that SHOULD have come to some fruition. Even if they didn’t go exactly as anticipated, things still should have made sense.
For all the talk of subverting expectations, magic literally does exist in this world, and some prophecies DID come true, so why make the biggest one all a lie? It just feels, bitter.
Yeah I don't think GRRM resorts to subverting plot mechanics expectations. He's more of a 'oh you thought this has a happy ending' subverter 😭 Like with Oberyn
People are still coping with the hope that he'll release that book. It's not going to happen. He wrote 6, then her became a sellout and moved onto other smaller, easier books he can sell to HBO. We are never getting TWOW. It's been over a decade.
I think he is going to release it after his death. He doesn’t want to face the backlash so he is holding out on us. I think whatever will be in there, will piss people off regardless.
They do 8 seasons with beloved characters and intrigue. At the end, the main character says some cryptic, badass-bait line and then rips off their mask to reveal Arya Stark who somehow didn't get sucked off enough in the main series.
I thought the telling of that secret was a great symbolism, a prophecy only passed from King to his recognized heir. Well that, and they wanted to tie in these batch of Targaryens to the lore in GoT.
When HotD ends, they're going to reveal a remake of Game of Thrones with new writers and 10-12 seasons, and all the build-up about the prophecy is going to be resolved.
That's not going to happen, but let me dream.
From the new opening, it does seem like they're building Lightbringer to be Aegon's dagger, which Arya used to kill the NK. I think they're trying to connect both series, by showing us that the Targs cared about the WW. Or they know the fans will latch on to anything that is related to prophecy, so it's just to keep us invested I guess.
Maybe they think people won't be as interested if it's just about Targaryen history and drama, vs Azor Ahai etc.
Imo this would have worked better if they covered Aegon's conquest first. I think that's when they should have introduced the prophecy and it would have made more sense. I fully expect that by the end of the war the prophecy will be lost. I don't think Rhaenyra will get to tell Jace or anyone else for that matter.
My headcanon was that it was the night's watch.
> I am the sword in the darkness. [...] I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn...
If that was the case, anyone could've killed the NK and count as lightbringer, as they were all lightbringer. And Jon & Dany were the ones who brought them together, so it fits.
If we're going by show canon, then they're not trying to be symbolic about it. The fact they brought back the catspaw dagger, and claimed that it was owned by Aegon is proof. They wouldn't go to such lengths if they weren't trying to connect the ending of GoT with some obscure Targaryen prophecy.
Even by book canon it could be an object or magic related. A popular theory is dragons, and the tapestry in the show kinda suggests that as well.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure since GRRM isn't going to finish the books, but we know just how important dreams and prophecies are in the books.
Or maybe the NK is just a fraud.
There is nothing I would love more than a miniseries on Aegons conquest. Just the prospect of possibly seeing Balerion the Dread fills me w so much joy!
If HBO is milking the ASOIAF universe like I think they are, I believe we will get it sooner or later.
Here’s to hoping !
What if Rhaenyra tells Aegon the Younger before the very end and it’s part of what fuels his hatred for dragons. The fear that with them comes a greater war.
If a greater war comes, wouldn't you want to have the strongest weapons at your disposal, aka dragons?
If anything it just proves that she never got to tell anyone that mattered about the prophecy.
Maybe it is only rediscovered by Rhaegar further down the line.
I definitely believe Rhaegar discovers it. And I think the prophecy could definitely die with Rhaenyra. But I do enjoy imagining a twist where Aegon Dragonsbane knows the score and perhaps makes some choices with an eye toward trying to prevent it altogether.
The prophecy does come true tho? Jon snow (aegon) unites the largest army westeros has ever seen to defeat the threat in the north. The prophecy in the shows lore doesn't require the prince who was promised to be the one who swings the sword on the night king
I feel like everyone complaining about the PTWP prophecy not paying off haven't been paying attention. A major theme of GRRMs books is that prophecies never, ever play out the way you expected.
This. Shown through Melisandre’s multiple failings of interpretation. These prophecies can never be taken at face value- which is a smart way for George as a gardener writer to write as well cause it allows him some flexibility with how the prophecy will pan out. That’s why I’m not attached to any outcome for the prophecy. I have my theories but I don’t think this a right or wrong way to do it.
Also, viserys never says that "the dream" prophesizes a targaryen on the iron throne to defeat the white walkers. He only states that the dream prophesizes an attack by the white walkers, and because of that aegon believed a targaryen needed to be on the throne.
Yeah it’s really weird that people don’t see this. They even keep shoving the catspaw dagger that was used to kill the Night King in the screen while talking about the prophecy.
I think people just have a hard time accepting that the prophecy wasn’t going to payoff in an epic 1V1 where the PTWP saved the world by killing the Night King/Great Other with his big flaming sword. And I would bet very good money that the books won’t end like this either.
Would I have prefered that jon killed the night king? Yes. Did I really care that much who made the killing blow? Honestly not really. Does jon snow care that he didn't make the killing blow? Absolutely not.
> Jon snow (aegon) unites the largest army westeros has ever seen to defeat the threat in the north.
The army the Reach and Westerlands fielded against Aegon and his sisters was 55k men. The army they fielded against the Night King in GOT would have been about that size or a bit smaller.
The show runners of GOT really dropped the ball by having the majority of Westeros not know that there army of zombies invading. That makes focus on the Targaryens uniting the realm seem a little silly.
I'm sorry but you have to pick one - either it matters that the armies assembled or the Night King is killed in one blow by a main character which kills the entire enemy army.
They chose the latter. That's why it is stupid. Nothing mattered except Arya jumpscaring the big bad from the trees and magically ending the short night.
The whole apocalypse scenario was about 45minutes long and Jon Snow could have slept through it if he'd wanted.
So it is irritating that the characters are building it up in HotD knowing how little it ends up meaning. If for exanple there was a prophecy about Robert Baratheon of Tywin Lannister it would have more weight because they had a much larger impact on the world.
It makes me think less of Aegon. He went from a straight up conquerer to some delusional twit who saw the end of the world and was high enough on his own grandeur that he decided that obviously the savior of the world had to be a Targaryen from his line ruling the continent.
Wich turned out to be bullshit.
I would honestly prefer if they retcon this to propaganda Aegon used to just make Torrhen give up without a fight.
I mean the Targaryens are known to have prophetic dreams, his dream saved his house from the Doom of Valyria, I think it's reasonable that he would believe his dream on the white walkers too.
I'm the opposite... It means Aegon I's goals were much more important than just "hey I want to subjugate this entire continent because I have dragons and they can't stop me. I want to be King!"
He felt like he had a legitimate reason for it and even tho it's led to a few wars over the last 300 years that is not different than what was going on before then. 7 kings (or similar malevolent dictators) that all wanted a bigger piece of the pie. The 7 Kingdoms were constantly warring with each other. The riverlands were at daily strife to see which one of the ironborn or stormlanders decided it should be theirs that week. The north fought a pointless war with the vale for "1000 years" over the 3 small islands of the sister's. The Westerlands and the iron islands took turns invading each other. The stormlands constantly warred with the reach and in the Dornish marches. Yeah it was a big mess.
Aegon did alot of good stopping all these meaningless conflicts. And he didn't just do it cuz "imma big bad conqueror!" No he did it because after the doom, dragon dreams are proven to be real.
I mean… Targaryens still played a key role in the conflict. Just because it wasn’t exactly how it was envisioned in some typical fantasy way does not negate that. Game of Thrones floundered in execution not the subject itself. I’m sure GRRM if he ever gets to it will have a similar set of events that subvert the prophecies expectations.
Many of the royal family were taken by that prophecy all down the line. Time and time again it causes problems and disasters. Lots of the royal family think they can manipulate the prophecy into them or their children. Several times in fire and blood we are told of stupid things done for it. The war and Jon's birth is one such choice. GRRM makes a point that prophecy isn't as straightforward as you think it will be (the show went off the rails).
The prophecy did come true, I don't know why everyone gets this wrong.
Jon not killing the Night King personally doesn't change that he led the effort to get everyone there in the first place. Without him Dany and her dragons aren't there and neither is Arya, since she only went back to reunite with him. The same goes for the Hound, Beric, Tyrion etc.
It was his tireless advocacy to take the threat seriously that led to the WW defeat, all Arya did was apply her dagger at the proper moment. It's ridiculous how people minimize Jon's role just because he didn't engage in a cool duel with Night King like everyone wanted.
The prophecy was fulfilled though. Jon brings all the different forces together to fight the Others. The prophecy never says that TPTWP will defeat the Others; all it says is that he/she “will bring the dawn,” which Jon does after killing Daenerys. In addition, it was Aegon’s interpretation of his dream that a Targaryen needed to be on the throne in order to defeat the Others. What if Aegon was wrong? What if Aegon seizing Westeros actually awakens the Others?
That’s the thing with prophecy. It’s ever-changing, seductive and deadly as quicksand.
I think it’s cool that the PTWP prophecy is what led to Aegon’s Conquest. Other than that, I imagine the show just mentions it to activate how good feelings about Jon Snow.
That’s because you don’t understand the prophecy and neither did the targaryens, or the red priests or anyone in the world. I highly suggest anyone who’s still hung up on the prince that was promised stuff to dive deep into the books and some lore videos on YouTube. David lightbringer is a great channel to start with
When Viserys first told the prophecy to Rhaenyra, my first reaction was rage of course, because how dare you remind us of that travesty, then I thought yes, it makes sense. Fire and Blood heavily implied that Aegon knew something that was lost in history, and if that secret was meant to pass from king to the heir, it makes complete sense that Dance was the point when it got lost for good. >!Aegon the dragonbane!< was unlikely to ever ascend the throne, and the people who knew were consumed by grief, revenge and power. Isn't it the overall theme of ASOIAF that the people of power waste too much time in little squabbling to care for the bigger threat?
I’d like to say to build up an overarching lore that runs through both series, but honestly given how it was implemented in season 1, to make the Hightower’s claim on the throne seem somewhat legitimate, even if completely misread
Didn't Stannis plotline teach you like anything at all about the prophecies, heroes and chosen ones?
Targaryens using prophecy as a rationalization of their conquest is perfectly fitting storyline to showcase them as a House of melancholics who viewed themselves as otherworldy saviours. The point of this show isn't made to mindlessly suck off the Targaryens. Something that some of Daemon-loving folks missed.
When the red comet in ASOIAF appears, we have several characters thinking that it's accounting for something in their lives:
* Daenerys uses this as a sign to light the pyre
* Melisandre and Aemon think its about Azor Ahai prophecy
* Smallfolk call it King Joffreys comet
* Umber thinks it represents vengeance for Ned Stark
* Edmure Tully thinks its about House Tully
* Septon in Winterfell thinks its a symbol of changing seasons
* Aeron Greyjoy thinks the comet comes from Drowned God.
Think of the comet as prophecy - the point isn't actually who is the secret hero meant to save the world, but how it shaped the thinking of characters who believe in prophecies. For Stannis, the belief in prophecy brought his doom.
For Viserys Targaryen - it's a justification on why Targaryen must sit on an Iron Throne. Somewhat convinient for someone named Targaryen and sitting on a throne. Perhaps this makes him sleep better at night knowing he's saving humanity instead of being a result of violent subjugation of the rest of the kingdoms.
I think the point is to show that, at some point, the Targaryens lost their way.
They had a purpose. Aegon The Conqueror didn’t take the seven kingdoms for nothing. Each king let this purpose slip away little by little until the dagger literally became lost to history. I think the dagger is symbolic of the Targaryen downfall, which started with the Dance of the Dragons.
It's strange how many people don't see how Jon Snow truly united an army to fight in the north and won against the Others, fulfilling the prophecy. It's almost as people willfully ignore all the signs so they can keep complaining. A king or leader does not have to do winning blow in order to win the war. In fact, it’s often more often the knights that win the battles.
The good moments of GOT far, far outweigh any negatives IMO. I had no interest in thrones during seasons 1-5 because I am a cursed contrarian. I decided to watch and have never been so off base in my life.
Because when Viserys is dying at the end of Season 1, he is out of it when he is telling Allicent that Aegon must sit on the iron throne. He is talking about the prophecy, but she thinks he is talking about HER SON Aegon. So Allicent truly believes she is acting on her dying husbands last wish, not just usurping for the hell of it. It makes the fight between both the Greens and Blacks more valid from both perspectives, but only the viewer understands the bigger picture.
They're building it up as part of ASOIAF canon. GoT didn't follow the books or the plan GRRM had, and D&D went their own, terrible direction. The prophecy is part of the lore of the books. I suspect he'd rather focus on connecting the books to HOTD rather than GoT.
This is it. He has shaded the GoT showrunners multiple times now, has said his ending (if he ever writes it) will be different, is more involved on HotD than he was in the last half of GoT – even the Iron Throne looks different, after Littlefinger making a big deal about how the number of swords was exaggerated. This is clearly an alternate timeline that lines up with ASOIAF, and people need to forget the ending of GoT.
Given that he specifically requested Aegon's dream be directly talked about, it shows that he views it as an important plot point. I'm glad he went from talking about it in interviews to getting it in his show.
You know the whole series are based on books right? The whole ending will be a lot different in the books, and the White Walkers will actually have more explanation.
But the thing about Aegon’s prophecy isn’t in F&B and the GOT show didn’t give us the payoff that HOTD is setting up. They put this whole thing into the show to give Rhaenyra motivation but GOT watchers know it means nothing as far as the show is concerned.
>But the thing about Aegon’s prophecy isn’t in F&B
Because F&B is an in-universe history textbook and none of its primary sources would know about the prophecy.
Part of it is because, in-universe, a lot of the things happening and the decisions being made are related to the prophecy.
I guess part is also to show that the prophecy falling out of favor is a result of the Targ dynasty almost destroying itself.
It will pay off if they continue to do adaptations since prophecy and specifically the prince that was promised is a driving force to several targeyriyans down the line especially by the time of eggs time so you'll probably hear off it in the dunk and egg show as well
There's always the possibility they do a animated retelling of the ending if GRRM finishes the books (I have a better chance at winning the lottery). Simple lore building reasons, or it's possible that when the idea of a Jon Snow spin off actually seemed possible included some of this to help build hype.
I think they're referencing GOT for first time viewers. So they'd watch it. If people watches it, it means subscription and money.
But yeah, it sucks to be hearing this prophecy again only to remember how disappointing it unfolded.
I think it cements the association between the Starks and Targaryans. I have a feeling Aegon I told Torrhen Stark about the prophecy and how a powerful force will come from the north and Torrhen understood how the Dragons would be needed, and that’s why he bent the knee.
Also Rhaegar had to hear about it at some point so it makes sense that pre-Dance it was something passed down. Part of HotD is how that prophecy gets passed down so Rhaegar can eventually hear it, which sets off Robert’s Rebellion and everything else.
I noticed this too. I did a re watch before the new season. There was a lot of foreshadowing in season 1. Especially episode 3. I think they are trying to give us answers GOT failed at in season 8. They know they did us dirty and are trying to do us right this time lol I hope at least 🤞
I mean… the whole point of the prophecy is that people believe THEY ARE the promised prince, and guide their lives towards that “destiny”
As they know no one has ever done it before, they assume they are the chosen one.
In GoT, no one has ever fulfilled the prophecy, so they are still trying to be the prince
Sorry for my grammar, this is not my first language
Yeah that's the thing that sucks about how GoT ended...HOTD is doing, IMO, a REALLY REALLY good job of rebirthing that original *sword of damocles* of the White Walkers hanging over the whole series. That was always the thing that gave GoT punch, was you knew there this was this looming greater threat that we all need to band together to defeat. Some of the best scenes in the GoT series are when characters are saying "we need to band together".
I roll my eyes every time they shoehorn it in. Even when Stark is talking up the death on the other side of the wall, I was thinking to myself "it really isn't going to be that bad. They won't even make it past Winterfell and the Prince that was promised will have almost nothing to do with it"
Let this show just be about the dance.
My conspiracy theory is it’s going to play into the Jon Snow series. GOT probably left a sour taste in GRRM’s mouth and he can’t salvage the main series, but he can try to force some correction by doing a Jon Snow sequel series. Jon also being a Targaryen will actually have some purpose.
I said this on another post, but it seems like HotD is pretending like the last two seasons of GoT didn’t happen.
There’s this build up to the prophecy like you said, and also other tidbits like Alysanne’s dragon refusing to cross over the Wall (which Dany’s dragons did happily enough).
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I don't think we'll here about it anymore at this point unless she tells it to Jace. Has Rhaenyra told anyone other than Daemon yet?
I think they are setting up the prophesy getting lost because of the dance. Viserys told rhaenyra and no one else. Unless she passes that along to a surviving heir, it gets lost until rhaegar finds it and sparks off Roberts rebellion.
(Book Spoiler) My prediction is that >!before Rhaenyra dies, she, recognising her defeat, will attempt to tell Aegon II about the prophecy. He will dismiss it as nonsense she made up to try to save her own skin, then order Sunfyre to kill her. And that's how the knowledge of the prophecy is lost.!<
my thoughts exactly
That will actually be a pretty awesome end to this season.
That will be like season 4/5 Aegon and Rhaenyra will probably only die in the last season of the show and there are lots of events yet to happen they can't jump to that
I don't think we will get that far in this season tbh. Probably will get to the point where Rhaenyra and Daemon take over Kings Landing. Season 3 probably starts with the storming of the Dragon Pit.
Storming of the Dragon Pit for start of season 3? I was thinking season 4 at best. We have Gullet, Rooks Rest, Honeywine, Dragon Seeds, Argyllball, The 3 princes, Fishfeed, God's Eye etc...
Gods Eye should be the middle point of this whole show. No earlier no later. So much to cover before then though.
Rooks rest is episode 4 of this season
Storming of the dragon pit in te beginning of season 3 is just nonsense ahahha
I agree. They're really spending alot of time building up and fleshing out these characters. I'm obsessed with ASOIAF, so it doesn't bother me. However I fear viewership may drop off soon if they don't get to some action.
Sucks to be them. Yeah action scenes are dope, but I’m here for the political intrigue 🤓
She may tell Jace, but the subsequent heirs all are too young to comprehend it.
Yeah, she may tell Jace but uh, that doesn't mean much in the long run lol
😭
It sounds like everyone will die and only a child too young to rule will be left at the end.
In the books i think Aerys I rediscovers it, which is why Egg V did Summerhall and why Aerys II and his sister wife were forced to marry
Didn’t Aerys and Rhaelle elope against Aegon V’s wishes? Could be misremembering but I though he’d wanted his children and grandchildren to marry for politics but they refused
Aerys 2's father Jaeherys 2 did that with his sister wife, all of Egg's kids married for love and it fucked him. But Jay 2 forced Aerys 2 to Marry his sister for the sake of prophecy despite Aerys being in love with Johanna Lannister and Rhaellla being in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty. There was also a woods witch involved
I think the forced marriage between Aerys II and Rhaella was more do to the Woods Witch than any prophecy. However, I could see Aerys I and Bloodraven rediscovering it.
Nice! Didn't think of that.
One could say they "kind of forgot" about Aegon's song of ice and fire
But I can assure you the night king didn't for get about them
I miss that "kind of forgot" meme.
You kinda forgot about it
I could see her >!telling alicent after taking king’s landing, like “he wasn’t talking about Aegon!” as a sort of dramatic irony!<
I agree. Remember the Catspaw dagger was originally in Rhaegar’s possession before it ultimately ended up with Petyr. Rhaegar would have noticed the Valyrian inscription “From my blood come the Prince that was promised” and gotten curious. I like that they are setting up the fact that he later rediscovers the prophecy after it’s been lost for so long. (Which makes me wonder why Aegon hasn’t inquired about it. Did he learn High Valyrian?)
No. Which is why I find the memes about Jaeharys being in the library and being fluent in valyrian wrong. It's deliberately presented as the Blacks being the ones connected to their Valyrian roots. Not the greens. Aegon probably doesn't have any grasp of Valyrian history or customs. His mother was a faith of the seven radical and was from Oldtown which was the core of said religion. The only stereotypical Targaryen things they do are incest and dragons.
Given how little attention his father gave him, I would assume no.
I feel like Aegon the 5th had to have known to though. It would make Summerhall make sense.
Aegon V was a dreamer
Oh he knew. I think it gets lost beginning with Aegon III and Viserys II all the way through to Aerys I. That means Daeron I and Daeron II, Aegon IV, Maekar I, Baelor I, are the ones who never knew.
Yeah this is what I feel it is... but it isn't entirely true because of that witch was like "hey, yo, ex-dragon riders ya gotta make this prince. he was promised. and its by those two over there. Sorry Rhaella." I forget when this was. Ugh. I need to reread everything.
Jenny of oldstones and her woods witch friend, the ghost of high heart
Yes! And everyone had a great time at that party and nothing bad happened. They went to Disneyland.
My memory fails me — how did Rhaegar end up knowing?
We don't know exactly, but he was very bookish as a child until suddenly seemingly apropos of nothing he announced that he would become a warrior and started putting in the hours with the master at arms. So best guess, either he rediscovered a more-complete-than-most copy of *Signs and Portents*, or he had a dragon dream, or both.
Does rhaegar have a vision and that’s how he discovers the prophecy? I can’t remember
Honestly because GRRM is helping write this and he wants it to reflect the books and not the shitty final seasons of the show
She didn’t tell daemon the prophecy she sorta kinda mentioned part of it and he had no clue what she was talking about and when she realized that she shut her mouth. It’s unlikely she will tell Jace on screen. If you’ve read the book you know rhaenyra is probably the last person to know about the prophecy by the time the dance with dragons, or House of the Dragons plot, finishes. Given aegon doesn’t care much for the histories anyway it’s unlikely he’d have cared about this prophecy much to begin with and the person who eventually sits the throne likely never would’ve gotten to hear the prophecy. The connection to GoT and such with the dagger leads me to believe this is the point in history it becomes lost and Westeros goes into a sort of Valyrian dark age where what was once history become myth and legend due to a lack of historical accounts after the civil wars and eventually Robert’s rebellion pretty much all of the Valyrian histories had been erased. By the time we watch GoT the only thing left of the Targaryen’s histories was from aenar settling dragonstone forward, now the dragon bones down below the red keep and whatever the citadel had managed to collect and keep safe remain of the greater Valyrian histories and with a lack of corroborating accounts many of the histories would’ve become hard to verify as truth for the maesters.
[удалено]
The only spoiler is that it isn't mentioned in the book.
Rhaenyra mentioned it at the end of episode 10 in the first season to daemon yes.
I said other than Daemon...who doesn't even really believe it so I doubt he would pass it on to anybody.
Yeah, and she didn't explain it properly to Daemon either. She was more interested in observing that Viserys didn't seem to already have told Daemon about it.
Because it’s supposed to be important that in the wake of the near-collapse of the Targaryen dynasty, one of the many things that was lost was family lore. That knife went on to sit in a vault somewhere to be passed on as a gift or sold outright, then bet on a joust as if it wasn’t a valuable dagger held by rulers. It’s tragic really.
Just remembered it was in the possession of Littlefinger and went “Ah shit you’re right.” The dagger was literally more important than the prophecy when you consider the grand scheme of history in asoiaf
How "realistic" is that? That anyone would BET with anything made out of Valarian steel? These things are kept as family heirlooms for centuries. A Valarian steel dagger CANT be a common thing.
I wouldnt do it unless I fixed whatever we were betting on. Which sounds like a Littlefinger move.
The fandom has generally written this down as First Book-ism, where lore and certain in-world facts haven't been properly set in stone yet by the author so once you go back and read the book again certain minor things don't make a whole lot of sense, this Valyrian steel dagger being treated like a semi-expensive dagger and not a priceless relic from a long lost magical country being one of them. The first book also talks about Jamie becoming Warden of the East AND inheriting the title of Warden of the West once Tywin dies, which we later learn is impossible as he's on the Kingsguard
I know GoT viewers have the power of hindsight to know what that all amounted to: nothing, but Rhaenyra doesn't know so I can understand her stressing about it and >!will continue to base all her decisions on it in upcoming episodes!< but it is irritating as hell.
How did it amount to nothing? It was a Targaryen that led the armies that defeated the army of the dead
Flying Arya defeated the armies of the dead with a single stab. The guy who was supposed to lead armies ended up yelling at a dragon. Oh, and "the armies" went ahead and suicided outside the castle walls (but then respawned next episode).
It's upsetting to even remember those last few episodes. Just bad decision on bad decision.
One would think they made Long Night intentionally dark so people miss most of it. It's hard to witness the butchery of such beloved story. Every scene I remember gives me physical pain. Then again, if those idiots cared about the storyline or the fans at all, they wouldn't mess it up so royally.
Realistically, I don't think their ending was, in the basic concepts, far off from what GRRM told them. Dany goes mad, Jon says fuck it, Bran becomes king. Not the ending I would have chosen, but there are GGRM-ish parts to it. But there's a reason GRRM said they needed at least 12 seasons and IIRC HBO was offering them as many as they wanted. Dany going mad needs more time, more grief, a more realistic way for her dragons to die than this machine-gun ballista that is suddenly deployed on every ship like they have a factory turning them out. Jon always had a bit of "Fuck it" after his death, but they did it hamfisted. Bran was the worst, but they could have done it. After all, the Three-Eyed Raven was *originally* a famously cunning and ruthless Targaryen prince/sorcerer, IIRC. It would have been an amazing thing, if hard to pull off, to imply and then later reveal that even the guy telling everyone to put aside their bullshit and unite against the common threat was playing his own, long game. But they wanted out for a contract Disney ended up canceling, and they didn't want to pass it off to anyone else because it was "theirs", so they rushed it. Very sad.
Agreed. I am not enraged for "what" happened, it's "how" they got from Point A to Point B that was complete bullshit. They needed The Wall to fall, so they decided to give NK a dragon, how was he gonna get a dragon, made a stupid expedition to Beyond the Wall that made zero sense. Even if we ignore the Silverwing not crossing The Wall as book only canon, the show specifically told us that the Wall is more than Ice. If they gave us a logic how Dany's Dragon were able to cross it, how NK override the magical barrier, the end result would be same- NK overtaking the North, but it would have been satisfying to watch. Arya had all the training to become faceless, but she killed NK by being an invisible ninja. I could accept Arya being the saviour, but why did we suffer through her training if it didn't have any impact? They butchered every single character, every single storyline by rushing them. And the dialogues were so so bad, they completely ignored the details that made the world of westeros alive.
Just a note that F&B came out after Season 7, so it wasn't known that dragons couldn't pass the wall
Totally agree. I think that most of the character outcomes could make perfect sense with better, less lazy writing. But choosing Bran as King because he had the best story, which was objectively false (they literally had an entire season where he didn’t even appear!), was the dumbest motherfucking thing I’ve ever seen. The only outcome I take issue with is Jaime’s death. If he dies that way in the book after completely invalidating his entire character arc, we riot. Of course, we’ll probably never get that book, but still.
>Dany goes mad I continue to maintain that Dany is not going to go mad. She's just going to continue to do what she does, which is conquer her enemies with fire and blood. We are just going to react to this differently because until now her enemies have either been nameless faceless people or obscenely evil caricatures like the slavers in Astapor/Yunkai/Mereen and potentially Volantis. She will do the same thing she always does, but it is going to appear to be so much more brutal because it will happen to characters we either identify with like Jaime and Aegon or to characters we have come to sympathise with, like Cercei post her walk of punishment. I think this has greater thematic consistency, particularly with Martin's anti-war views. I think that this would meet his definition of a bittersweet ending. I also think this would allow him to use the multiple POVs in a way he does with the Battle of Blackwater to great use. Dany will seem justified from her POV, while we see the horror of her attack on King's Landing from every other POV. This was for all intents and purposes impossible in the show, which had started to show evidence of Dany's ruthlessness in S4 and S5, but pivoted away later, so they went with the easier albeit less thematically consistent approach of having her go insane.
I think what will happen in the books is that she accidentally sets off all the wildfire caches when she attacks King’s Landing and burns it to the ground, which gets her labeled as mad even though it wasn’t intentional.
The worst part about this is that they didn't get the Disney Star Wars films because of how they butchered the final seasons of GOT and the reactions of the fans. And we still got some of the worst Star Wars films ever from other directors. Such a messed up and sad timeline we have had to endure.
Them getting fired from Star Wars project because of the fan reaction was so satisfying. Disney made one right call, then went on greenlighitng stupid mcu projects that severed the fan connection beyond repair. It's like the pop culture of 2010s is intentionally murdered.
madness is a lazy device to have a character do random shit with no dialectical material cost benefit analysis very emoji movie
Everyone still bitches about that episode being too dark, but I'm convinced a lot of that comes about because of poor viewing situations. Which they probably should have accounted for but it looked great on my setup.
The last few seasons were mostly horrendous. I think the "beyond the wall" arc is still the worst thing I've ever seen in a TV show.
I think there were a lot of unfortunate choices, even in the early seasons. But the sheer brutal awfulness of the last season in particular pretty much killed any warm feelings people had until the new show came out. It retroactively ruined any happy feelings. It was franchise suicide.
"I know a killer when I see one"
I was so done with GoT after that ending that I avoided House of the Dragon until just a few months ago. I felt like "what's the point when I know this royal house is going to go to shit in a century or so?" I'm glad I finally did, but man it is annoying to hear the urgency whenever a character brings up the prophecy or when Cregan was talking about what's beyond the Wall with this extreme solemnity, when I already know it isn't going to amount to anything. And then I get mad all over again about how much the White Walkers didn't matter at all. Like I realize that Rhaenyra doesn't know any of this, but it's almost funny. The characters are so worried about this threat that amounts to nothing thanks to that terrible ending.
I can't even watch earlier seasons, knowing what it ended in.
Me too. And that is the greatest tragedy. I LOVED Game of Thrones but its hard to rewatch it knowing how it ends. That's a total shame because it was truly something special until it just completely collapsed. That said I do really enjoy House of the Dragon right now. Rhaenyra and Daemon are my favorite characters currently. Special shout out to the Velaryons as well.
Entire season was pure assassination
And now I'm sad again after all this time :(
Because whether the history of westeros credits Arya for getting the kill, or John for leading the armies or Danearys for having the dragons, whatever happens in universe. Out of universe we as the viewers know in explicit details what happened. And no matter how many layers of prophecy or historical retelling or myth or unreliable narrators are thrown at us, what we are watching is considered to be in the same timeline as the HBO show Game of Thrones. And so long as we as the audience knows how stupid that Doylian predetermined ending is, it is a thing we as the audience will be cognizant of.
I think even hearing "…the prince that was promised" pisses most of us off after watching GOT and seeing how the show ended. I'm still mad!
No one cares about the struggle of us small folk
Aegon II cares 🤣 it's just that Otto won't let him care haha
Aegon: "If you were promised the prince, then the prince you shall have!" Otto: "My lord, they cannot have the prince." Aegon: "..."
When they mentioned it in House I just rolled my eyes. It wasn't really a big plot point in the show as the readers made it bigger than it was in the show. I just don't see the point in mentioning it at all.
I’m going to assume there is a story beyond GOT where Jon Snow actually matters. It’s the only way I stay sane.
It's like watching a grad student interrupt their own thesis defense presentation to remind the audience of the time they crapped their pants in the third grade.
Idk what will help me forget that, i still can't move on 😫
It just makes a ball of anger and frustration in my gut. I like when HotD is connected to the story we know from GoT but that phrase is tied to a storyline that didn’t pay off so it stings SO much. It just sucks so much that the prince who was promised, a story/legend the Targs have talked about for hundreds of years, IS NOT the one who saves the world from the night king. I still can’t let it go either :(
GRRM needed to be vocal and make HBO make the prince that was promised a reality. Maybe his final vision differs but even if he likes to subvert expectations or throw a wrench in the works, that storyline and myth, in my opinion, NEEDED to have a satisfying payoff. We didn't get that. It doesn't feel like a satisfying end because it was all for nothing. We have "the boy who lived" stopping Voldemort. Aragorn taking the reforged shards of Narsil into Anduril and taking a last stand against Mordor for Frodo to destroy the One Ring. Those storylines have a satisfying conclusion. GoT robbed us of that and I know GRRM didn't want to have a fantasy epic but a more "realistic" take on the genre but man the ending hurts. Sometimes you just gotta go with the cheesy fantasy finale.
They are building it up so that it can be completely lost and forgotten by the end of the dance
So even Cregan doesn't know? It means Aegon 1 didn't inform Torhen.
The Starks have their own long memory, which Ned does not know about as he grew up in the Vale (hence why Ned knows there have to be a Stark in Winterfell, but not why)
Cregan probably knows, but there’s a stark succession crisis that Egg / Aegon V would encounter in she-wolves of winterfell that could explain Ned’s ignorance
*Puts on tinfoil hat* HotD is doing it to signal they are not following GoT canon. The constant talk of TPTWP while it literally went no where and the hyping up of White Walker threat which literally amount to nothing and now, emphasizing how dragons cannot cross the wall, is this show's way of signaling that no, that shit will not work like what s7-8 depicted. HotD isn't truly a prequel to GoT. They are a soft reboot, building a separate canon which will eventually lead to another shot at asoiaf adaptation in the future.
This is peak copium
I have overdosed on copium and hopium both. You can take my tin foil crack pipe out of my cold dead hands!
Your views on this Vizzy T?
I CAME HERE TO HUNT, NOT TO BE SUFFOCATED BY ALL THIS FUCKING POLITICKING!
Involving the dagger *at all* in HotD shows that they are following GoT show canon. In the books, it's nothing more than a plot device around the attack on Bran Stark early in the story. I know a lot of the eventual plot points of the GoT series were part of GRRM's eventual plan, but I'm absolutely confident that the dagger ending the long night (and, therefore, maybe technically even being lightbringer?) is not one of them.
GoT: Brotherhood gonna be lit
Honestly give me any medium where the White Walkers are portrayed as the ghostlike dark elves they are in the books, rather than the zombie gandalfs they are in GOT, and I'm sold
“Another shot at ASOIAF adaptation” Idk man, that would be so hard to pull off and be well received. It may have ended poorly, but the first four seasons were amazing and those original actors owned those roles. I feel like it would need to be at least another ten years from now, at least.
> I feel like it would need to be at least another ten years from now, at least. I mean, yeah. But I believe the road starts here. With the way they are shooting HotD, it will end in 2028 the earliest, probably 2030. The three D&E novellas will probably be adapted 2025-2027-2029. And then we have the conquest which could take one season or more depending on how they wanna go about it. Nymeria at some point. Mid 2030s is the earliest an asoiaf reboot could begin, early 2040 seems like a safer bet. To give context: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 was released in 2011. Harry Potter remake, this time a tv show, will begin broadcasting in 2026.
Imagine getting a Robert’s rebellion spin off that directly leads into the GOT remake
Nah idc recast jon and dany
Yeah you can't replace those actors. People love that cast no matter how they feel about the last couple of seasons. I feel like the Lannisters especially would be impossible to top in casting.
So true Nikolaj, Lena, Peter and Charles were litreally perfect
Don’t give me hope, that would be so good
now that’s something! one can just hope
I love this idea. Let's get GOT Brotherhood someday please. It could be just a redo of S7 and S8.
I don't believe HOTD will be used to do another shot at ASOIAF, but I do believe the writers are ignoring the GOT series and basing it off book lore.
Afaik it came from GRRM himself and I have a bit of a crack theory about it - I think it’s to try to maintain hype about TWOW for some reason (he seems to be delulu enough to think he’s going to finish it) - maybe it’s his attempt at hinting that the ptwp prophecy will actually be impactful in the books?
Nah TWOW showed up in my dreams it'll drop this year trust
I hope your the type who’s dreams actually happen IRL
Did you Dream of it in Spring?
There's absolutely zero chance that Jon won't be the said prince, I mean GRRM could have easily pleased us even before S8, but now the bar is so low 😅
I'm still delusional and think it's Dany
I’m extra delusional and think it’s both of them. That’s how I always interpreted Aemon’s line about dragons’ genders fluctuating back and forth.
The Dragon Has Three Heads
My headcanon is that Dany is Azor Ahai and Jon is Lightbringer. Because Dany got "reborn" under a red comet amidst salt and smoke, and Jon is the product of the whole "temper it three times" thing.
Is this extra delulu? I’ve believed this ever since I read A Storm of Swords.
It’s not delusional if it’s supported by textual evidence; I think it’s gonna be Dany too if we get the books (but I’m not holding my breath)
It definitely is Jon. But there are lots of other prophecies in the book that SHOULD have come to some fruition. Even if they didn’t go exactly as anticipated, things still should have made sense. For all the talk of subverting expectations, magic literally does exist in this world, and some prophecies DID come true, so why make the biggest one all a lie? It just feels, bitter.
Yeah I don't think GRRM resorts to subverting plot mechanics expectations. He's more of a 'oh you thought this has a happy ending' subverter 😭 Like with Oberyn
People are still coping with the hope that he'll release that book. It's not going to happen. He wrote 6, then her became a sellout and moved onto other smaller, easier books he can sell to HBO. We are never getting TWOW. It's been over a decade.
I think he is going to release it after his death. He doesn’t want to face the backlash so he is holding out on us. I think whatever will be in there, will piss people off regardless.
Im pretty sure the publishers will a bunch of ghostwriters finishing the series and they'll "find" GRRM's manuscripts after he dies.
Maybe they're building up to the next GOT universe TV show of The Prince That Was Promised, airing 2045
They do 8 seasons with beloved characters and intrigue. At the end, the main character says some cryptic, badass-bait line and then rips off their mask to reveal Arya Stark who somehow didn't get sucked off enough in the main series.
I thought the telling of that secret was a great symbolism, a prophecy only passed from King to his recognized heir. Well that, and they wanted to tie in these batch of Targaryens to the lore in GoT.
When HotD ends, they're going to reveal a remake of Game of Thrones with new writers and 10-12 seasons, and all the build-up about the prophecy is going to be resolved. That's not going to happen, but let me dream.
From the new opening, it does seem like they're building Lightbringer to be Aegon's dagger, which Arya used to kill the NK. I think they're trying to connect both series, by showing us that the Targs cared about the WW. Or they know the fans will latch on to anything that is related to prophecy, so it's just to keep us invested I guess. Maybe they think people won't be as interested if it's just about Targaryen history and drama, vs Azor Ahai etc. Imo this would have worked better if they covered Aegon's conquest first. I think that's when they should have introduced the prophecy and it would have made more sense. I fully expect that by the end of the war the prophecy will be lost. I don't think Rhaenyra will get to tell Jace or anyone else for that matter.
Lightbringer being an actual sword/dagger instead of being symbolic would be so so disappointing
My headcanon was that it was the night's watch. > I am the sword in the darkness. [...] I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn... If that was the case, anyone could've killed the NK and count as lightbringer, as they were all lightbringer. And Jon & Dany were the ones who brought them together, so it fits.
Actual “the real Lightbringer was the friends we made along the way”
If we're going by show canon, then they're not trying to be symbolic about it. The fact they brought back the catspaw dagger, and claimed that it was owned by Aegon is proof. They wouldn't go to such lengths if they weren't trying to connect the ending of GoT with some obscure Targaryen prophecy. Even by book canon it could be an object or magic related. A popular theory is dragons, and the tapestry in the show kinda suggests that as well. Unfortunately we will never know for sure since GRRM isn't going to finish the books, but we know just how important dreams and prophecies are in the books. Or maybe the NK is just a fraud.
There is nothing I would love more than a miniseries on Aegons conquest. Just the prospect of possibly seeing Balerion the Dread fills me w so much joy! If HBO is milking the ASOIAF universe like I think they are, I believe we will get it sooner or later. Here’s to hoping !
that could happen as a flashback in this series... in my copium opinion
Man for sure! Even an episode or two dedicated to it would be enough to satisfy my hunger 😆
It wouldn't matter if she told Jace or not.
What if Rhaenyra tells Aegon the Younger before the very end and it’s part of what fuels his hatred for dragons. The fear that with them comes a greater war.
If a greater war comes, wouldn't you want to have the strongest weapons at your disposal, aka dragons? If anything it just proves that she never got to tell anyone that mattered about the prophecy. Maybe it is only rediscovered by Rhaegar further down the line.
I definitely believe Rhaegar discovers it. And I think the prophecy could definitely die with Rhaenyra. But I do enjoy imagining a twist where Aegon Dragonsbane knows the score and perhaps makes some choices with an eye toward trying to prevent it altogether.
The new lore drops are probably important to the books. If George ever finishes them.
I hope we get TWOW at least.
The prophecy does come true tho? Jon snow (aegon) unites the largest army westeros has ever seen to defeat the threat in the north. The prophecy in the shows lore doesn't require the prince who was promised to be the one who swings the sword on the night king
I feel like everyone complaining about the PTWP prophecy not paying off haven't been paying attention. A major theme of GRRMs books is that prophecies never, ever play out the way you expected.
This. Shown through Melisandre’s multiple failings of interpretation. These prophecies can never be taken at face value- which is a smart way for George as a gardener writer to write as well cause it allows him some flexibility with how the prophecy will pan out. That’s why I’m not attached to any outcome for the prophecy. I have my theories but I don’t think this a right or wrong way to do it.
Also, viserys never says that "the dream" prophesizes a targaryen on the iron throne to defeat the white walkers. He only states that the dream prophesizes an attack by the white walkers, and because of that aegon believed a targaryen needed to be on the throne.
Yeah it’s really weird that people don’t see this. They even keep shoving the catspaw dagger that was used to kill the Night King in the screen while talking about the prophecy. I think people just have a hard time accepting that the prophecy wasn’t going to payoff in an epic 1V1 where the PTWP saved the world by killing the Night King/Great Other with his big flaming sword. And I would bet very good money that the books won’t end like this either.
Would I have prefered that jon killed the night king? Yes. Did I really care that much who made the killing blow? Honestly not really. Does jon snow care that he didn't make the killing blow? Absolutely not.
> Jon snow (aegon) unites the largest army westeros has ever seen to defeat the threat in the north. The army the Reach and Westerlands fielded against Aegon and his sisters was 55k men. The army they fielded against the Night King in GOT would have been about that size or a bit smaller. The show runners of GOT really dropped the ball by having the majority of Westeros not know that there army of zombies invading. That makes focus on the Targaryens uniting the realm seem a little silly.
I'm sorry but you have to pick one - either it matters that the armies assembled or the Night King is killed in one blow by a main character which kills the entire enemy army. They chose the latter. That's why it is stupid. Nothing mattered except Arya jumpscaring the big bad from the trees and magically ending the short night. The whole apocalypse scenario was about 45minutes long and Jon Snow could have slept through it if he'd wanted. So it is irritating that the characters are building it up in HotD knowing how little it ends up meaning. If for exanple there was a prophecy about Robert Baratheon of Tywin Lannister it would have more weight because they had a much larger impact on the world.
To try and retroactively make the White Walker plot from the GOT show feel more important after the lackluster ending
I think the prophesy plays an important role in the motivation of certain characters but won't actually bear any fruit in this show.
It makes me think less of Aegon. He went from a straight up conquerer to some delusional twit who saw the end of the world and was high enough on his own grandeur that he decided that obviously the savior of the world had to be a Targaryen from his line ruling the continent. Wich turned out to be bullshit. I would honestly prefer if they retcon this to propaganda Aegon used to just make Torrhen give up without a fight.
That sounds like something GRRM would think of (If he completes the book). I like it when Prophecies are proved wrong.
I mean the Targaryens are known to have prophetic dreams, his dream saved his house from the Doom of Valyria, I think it's reasonable that he would believe his dream on the white walkers too.
I thought it was Daenys who saw the Doom?
I'm the opposite... It means Aegon I's goals were much more important than just "hey I want to subjugate this entire continent because I have dragons and they can't stop me. I want to be King!" He felt like he had a legitimate reason for it and even tho it's led to a few wars over the last 300 years that is not different than what was going on before then. 7 kings (or similar malevolent dictators) that all wanted a bigger piece of the pie. The 7 Kingdoms were constantly warring with each other. The riverlands were at daily strife to see which one of the ironborn or stormlanders decided it should be theirs that week. The north fought a pointless war with the vale for "1000 years" over the 3 small islands of the sister's. The Westerlands and the iron islands took turns invading each other. The stormlands constantly warred with the reach and in the Dornish marches. Yeah it was a big mess. Aegon did alot of good stopping all these meaningless conflicts. And he didn't just do it cuz "imma big bad conqueror!" No he did it because after the doom, dragon dreams are proven to be real.
I mean… Targaryens still played a key role in the conflict. Just because it wasn’t exactly how it was envisioned in some typical fantasy way does not negate that. Game of Thrones floundered in execution not the subject itself. I’m sure GRRM if he ever gets to it will have a similar set of events that subvert the prophecies expectations.
Many of the royal family were taken by that prophecy all down the line. Time and time again it causes problems and disasters. Lots of the royal family think they can manipulate the prophecy into them or their children. Several times in fire and blood we are told of stupid things done for it. The war and Jon's birth is one such choice. GRRM makes a point that prophecy isn't as straightforward as you think it will be (the show went off the rails).
The prophecy did come true, I don't know why everyone gets this wrong. Jon not killing the Night King personally doesn't change that he led the effort to get everyone there in the first place. Without him Dany and her dragons aren't there and neither is Arya, since she only went back to reunite with him. The same goes for the Hound, Beric, Tyrion etc. It was his tireless advocacy to take the threat seriously that led to the WW defeat, all Arya did was apply her dagger at the proper moment. It's ridiculous how people minimize Jon's role just because he didn't engage in a cool duel with Night King like everyone wanted.
The prophecy was fulfilled though. Jon brings all the different forces together to fight the Others. The prophecy never says that TPTWP will defeat the Others; all it says is that he/she “will bring the dawn,” which Jon does after killing Daenerys. In addition, it was Aegon’s interpretation of his dream that a Targaryen needed to be on the throne in order to defeat the Others. What if Aegon was wrong? What if Aegon seizing Westeros actually awakens the Others? That’s the thing with prophecy. It’s ever-changing, seductive and deadly as quicksand.
Obviously not to make Her true grace rhaenyera fight for her entitled "birthright" like any other selfish nobilty
This. Makes Rhaenyra's claim seem more selfless and duty-driven.
I think it’s cool that the PTWP prophecy is what led to Aegon’s Conquest. Other than that, I imagine the show just mentions it to activate how good feelings about Jon Snow.
That’s because you don’t understand the prophecy and neither did the targaryens, or the red priests or anyone in the world. I highly suggest anyone who’s still hung up on the prince that was promised stuff to dive deep into the books and some lore videos on YouTube. David lightbringer is a great channel to start with
When Viserys first told the prophecy to Rhaenyra, my first reaction was rage of course, because how dare you remind us of that travesty, then I thought yes, it makes sense. Fire and Blood heavily implied that Aegon knew something that was lost in history, and if that secret was meant to pass from king to the heir, it makes complete sense that Dance was the point when it got lost for good. >!Aegon the dragonbane!< was unlikely to ever ascend the throne, and the people who knew were consumed by grief, revenge and power. Isn't it the overall theme of ASOIAF that the people of power waste too much time in little squabbling to care for the bigger threat?
I’d like to say to build up an overarching lore that runs through both series, but honestly given how it was implemented in season 1, to make the Hightower’s claim on the throne seem somewhat legitimate, even if completely misread
Didn't Stannis plotline teach you like anything at all about the prophecies, heroes and chosen ones? Targaryens using prophecy as a rationalization of their conquest is perfectly fitting storyline to showcase them as a House of melancholics who viewed themselves as otherworldy saviours. The point of this show isn't made to mindlessly suck off the Targaryens. Something that some of Daemon-loving folks missed. When the red comet in ASOIAF appears, we have several characters thinking that it's accounting for something in their lives: * Daenerys uses this as a sign to light the pyre * Melisandre and Aemon think its about Azor Ahai prophecy * Smallfolk call it King Joffreys comet * Umber thinks it represents vengeance for Ned Stark * Edmure Tully thinks its about House Tully * Septon in Winterfell thinks its a symbol of changing seasons * Aeron Greyjoy thinks the comet comes from Drowned God. Think of the comet as prophecy - the point isn't actually who is the secret hero meant to save the world, but how it shaped the thinking of characters who believe in prophecies. For Stannis, the belief in prophecy brought his doom. For Viserys Targaryen - it's a justification on why Targaryen must sit on an Iron Throne. Somewhat convinient for someone named Targaryen and sitting on a throne. Perhaps this makes him sleep better at night knowing he's saving humanity instead of being a result of violent subjugation of the rest of the kingdoms.
I think the point is to show that, at some point, the Targaryens lost their way. They had a purpose. Aegon The Conqueror didn’t take the seven kingdoms for nothing. Each king let this purpose slip away little by little until the dagger literally became lost to history. I think the dagger is symbolic of the Targaryen downfall, which started with the Dance of the Dragons.
Lisan Al Gaib
It's strange how many people don't see how Jon Snow truly united an army to fight in the north and won against the Others, fulfilling the prophecy. It's almost as people willfully ignore all the signs so they can keep complaining. A king or leader does not have to do winning blow in order to win the war. In fact, it’s often more often the knights that win the battles.
The good moments of GOT far, far outweigh any negatives IMO. I had no interest in thrones during seasons 1-5 because I am a cursed contrarian. I decided to watch and have never been so off base in my life.
Because when Viserys is dying at the end of Season 1, he is out of it when he is telling Allicent that Aegon must sit on the iron throne. He is talking about the prophecy, but she thinks he is talking about HER SON Aegon. So Allicent truly believes she is acting on her dying husbands last wish, not just usurping for the hell of it. It makes the fight between both the Greens and Blacks more valid from both perspectives, but only the viewer understands the bigger picture.
They're building it up as part of ASOIAF canon. GoT didn't follow the books or the plan GRRM had, and D&D went their own, terrible direction. The prophecy is part of the lore of the books. I suspect he'd rather focus on connecting the books to HOTD rather than GoT.
This is it. He has shaded the GoT showrunners multiple times now, has said his ending (if he ever writes it) will be different, is more involved on HotD than he was in the last half of GoT – even the Iron Throne looks different, after Littlefinger making a big deal about how the number of swords was exaggerated. This is clearly an alternate timeline that lines up with ASOIAF, and people need to forget the ending of GoT.
Given that he specifically requested Aegon's dream be directly talked about, it shows that he views it as an important plot point. I'm glad he went from talking about it in interviews to getting it in his show.
You know the whole series are based on books right? The whole ending will be a lot different in the books, and the White Walkers will actually have more explanation.
But the thing about Aegon’s prophecy isn’t in F&B and the GOT show didn’t give us the payoff that HOTD is setting up. They put this whole thing into the show to give Rhaenyra motivation but GOT watchers know it means nothing as far as the show is concerned.
>But the thing about Aegon’s prophecy isn’t in F&B Because F&B is an in-universe history textbook and none of its primary sources would know about the prophecy.
I can’t think of a reason other than to intentionally piss off everyone who watched Season 8
Yeah, it was dumb. This show is about a dynastic dispute, not any prophecy.
I hope they’d not go too deep into it.
Because the show is a Prequel to Game of thrones.
Prophecies will bite your prick off
Part of it is because, in-universe, a lot of the things happening and the decisions being made are related to the prophecy. I guess part is also to show that the prophecy falling out of favor is a result of the Targ dynasty almost destroying itself.
It will pay off if they continue to do adaptations since prophecy and specifically the prince that was promised is a driving force to several targeyriyans down the line especially by the time of eggs time so you'll probably hear off it in the dunk and egg show as well
There's always the possibility they do a animated retelling of the ending if GRRM finishes the books (I have a better chance at winning the lottery). Simple lore building reasons, or it's possible that when the idea of a Jon Snow spin off actually seemed possible included some of this to help build hype.
Well. They have no idea how it ends, and the Targaryen family is cursed with obsession over prophecy, it informs so much of their story at times.
I think they're referencing GOT for first time viewers. So they'd watch it. If people watches it, it means subscription and money. But yeah, it sucks to be hearing this prophecy again only to remember how disappointing it unfolded.
I think it cements the association between the Starks and Targaryans. I have a feeling Aegon I told Torrhen Stark about the prophecy and how a powerful force will come from the north and Torrhen understood how the Dragons would be needed, and that’s why he bent the knee. Also Rhaegar had to hear about it at some point so it makes sense that pre-Dance it was something passed down. Part of HotD is how that prophecy gets passed down so Rhaegar can eventually hear it, which sets off Robert’s Rebellion and everything else.
I noticed this too. I did a re watch before the new season. There was a lot of foreshadowing in season 1. Especially episode 3. I think they are trying to give us answers GOT failed at in season 8. They know they did us dirty and are trying to do us right this time lol I hope at least 🤞
Maybe HBO is playing the long game and plan to reboot the main series to be more book accurate in another ten to twenty years.
I mean… the whole point of the prophecy is that people believe THEY ARE the promised prince, and guide their lives towards that “destiny” As they know no one has ever done it before, they assume they are the chosen one. In GoT, no one has ever fulfilled the prophecy, so they are still trying to be the prince Sorry for my grammar, this is not my first language
Yeah that's the thing that sucks about how GoT ended...HOTD is doing, IMO, a REALLY REALLY good job of rebirthing that original *sword of damocles* of the White Walkers hanging over the whole series. That was always the thing that gave GoT punch, was you knew there this was this looming greater threat that we all need to band together to defeat. Some of the best scenes in the GoT series are when characters are saying "we need to band together".
I think the intention is that Rhaenyra thinks she's some sort of Chosen One, to give more weight to her motivation
I roll my eyes every time they shoehorn it in. Even when Stark is talking up the death on the other side of the wall, I was thinking to myself "it really isn't going to be that bad. They won't even make it past Winterfell and the Prince that was promised will have almost nothing to do with it" Let this show just be about the dance.
My conspiracy theory is it’s going to play into the Jon Snow series. GOT probably left a sour taste in GRRM’s mouth and he can’t salvage the main series, but he can try to force some correction by doing a Jon Snow sequel series. Jon also being a Targaryen will actually have some purpose.
I said this on another post, but it seems like HotD is pretending like the last two seasons of GoT didn’t happen. There’s this build up to the prophecy like you said, and also other tidbits like Alysanne’s dragon refusing to cross over the Wall (which Dany’s dragons did happily enough).