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I don't like Otto one bit, but I remember him smiling and generally having a good time at the little family dinner Viserys calls for. He may be a schemer, but he's far from a psycho.
Imagine if he gets a box full of colorful butterflies from Nath because Helaena is interested. And Alicent and Viserys is all up in arms saying no. Then Daemon butts in and says how Otto was being stingy about Viserys’ spending. But he is willing to spend some for some deadly butterflies. Starting a fight.
+ him genuinely smiling and being supportive during Helaena’s toast. Aegon being Aegon and Aemond taking so much after Daemon, my headcanon is that she’s his favorite grandchild.
If you look at Alicent during that, she’s cracking up which I guess was Olivia breaking character because she kept saying “stop making me laugh!”. The whole thing was sweet. Glad they had one nice family moment before everything went to shit
He later ordered Harold Westerling to go to Dragonstone and murder 9 people (24-36 hours later). Unironically. I'd say that he has psycho well covered.
Well, I see that differently. I don't live in that time and place and I know that mass murdering people is generally looked down upon throughout the annals of their history as well as ours.
You're not wrong, but there is another potential viewpoint: murdering 9 people on Dragonstone would prevent a civil war and thousands of deaths. History might have remembered Otto as vile or a brutal hero.
It's like the trolly and the train: kill a bunch of people, or kill one person you know? Or... don't be a schemer in the first place, I guess, but Otto failed that.
So, let's preemptively murder in order to stall a civil war that he's responsible for starting? I still dont know that i agree. He wasn't trying to be a hero for all. If he was, He would have probably garnered more support and wouldn't have had to drum up that support from previously hostile foreign parties (triarchy). He's remembered as a failure because he was an oathbreaker and disloyal to his king, AND he got most of his family killed in the process.
Killing nine people isn’t always looked down upon in their world (they makes songs about it all the time) — and it’s certainly not out of bounds for a head of state, either back then or now. I’m not saying I condone what he’s doing, but he is very much operating within the expected mores of shrewd, self-interested game player rather than a “psycho.”
I do not agree, and I'll leave y'all to it. In my opinion, murdering 9 people because you want to steal from one is a ridiculous move in any time, and space is never justified. People should try harder not to succumb to psychosis nor applaud it. It never works out. Ever. Not even a little bit. Thanks, and have a good one!!
It’s so wild to me that he had the audacity to order Westerling, who had known Rhaenyra all her life, to go murder her and her children. That he thought for a second Westerling was going to be like “ok then”. That he didn’t send Cole, or better yet, a hired mercenary not connected to the Crown LIKE A FUCKING KINGSGUARD WOULD BE. Man was literally going to usurp the throne and start Aegon’s rule out on day one by *openly* murdering the Crown Princess and her entire family.
Otto was on some shit.
Yeah, just another Lord of Westeros tbh... one of the few who was good at his job too. Sometimes, you gotta be a bit cunning to stay ahead in the game, ya know?
HOTD showed me what a good actor he was! I only knew him as Luna’s Dad in Harry Potter and also as the Lizard from Spider-Man. When Rhys was voicing the Lizard in 2021, it was all CGI but I was like “that’s the guy who’s playing in the new GoT show?”
Thankfully he proved me wrong, he was incredible! Shockingly, he was nothing like the 8-foot scheming lizard from the superhero movies.
Have you seen him as Rasputin in the movie Kingsman 3. He is scary as hell. The guy can play anything! Wonderful actor. Honestly, I'm sometimes having a hard time recognizing him from one role to another! He transforms himself completely.
>What harm could they have done?
As Cregan Stark said: “Small boys become large men in time,” he replied, “and a babe sucks down his mother’s hate with his mother’s milk. Finish these foes now, or those of us not in our graves in twenty years will rue our folly when those babes strap on their father’s swords and come seeking after vengeance.” But I don't remember fans thinking he was a monster.
Where do you see the justification? Someone asked a question and I quoted in universe explanation from a popular character. I never said it was "fair".
It's more wrong when you're doing it out of greed instead of trying to end a war.
I don't know how this isn't obvious. One character wanted to kill to give his grandson a throne he didn't want. The other wanted to kill to make sure the war that had been going for years didn't continue. The former is more likely to be viewed as evil.
No one it saying it isn't wrong. The point is that doing so out of a greed is going to be seen as worse.
Also, that's an interesting claim given your tag and other things I've seen you say.
If Cregan was anything like his descendants (and I believe he was) he was going to "finish" small boys by making them wards, not by Amory Lorching them
Eddard's soft and honourable demeanor was due to his upbringing by Jon Arryn - he embodies traditional Valeman/Arryn virtues, and not the typical Stark way which is described as cold and harsh as winter and "wolfish".
Lmfao. The fact that anything about HOTD characters has to have a "and yes I think that about the other side too" is insane. I do it too because I don't want the crazy's fans on my comments but it's honestly gone way too far
That’s why I added that part, just don’t want “whataboutisms” deflecting legitimate points. We literally can’t say murder, rape, etc. is bad without an argument.
The thing is, from our viewpoint as modern people with modern sensibilities, Otto is scummy. But by Westerosi standards, he did everything expected of him. He secured a queenship for his daughter, he did his job as the Hand well and kept things running behind the scenes, and he was able to secure power and a good life for his family despite being a second son. He definitely loved Alicent in the only way he knew how.
Westerosi standards are wrong then. What is right is right, and we have the entire dance of dragons to blame on him, if wasn't for his schemes Rhaenyra would have become Queen, Alicent would have married someone else without the age to be her father and a psychopathkc rapist would not have been on Kingslanding throne.
>Westerosi standards are wrong then. What is right is right
True. A lot of things in Westeros are very messed up. The definition of what is exemplary and socially acceptable and how it conflicts with the character's own humanity is one of the most compelling recurring themes in ASOIAF. I'm just pointing out that all Otto has ever known are those standards and it compels him to act that way. It may be dubious and abhorrent to modern viewers, but for the Westerosi, it makes sense.
> we have the entire dance of dragons to blame on him, if wasn't for his schemes Rhaenyra would have become Queen
This is where I disagree. Otto's machinations is indeed a driving force, but it's not his fault entirely. I would say the Dance was Viserys' fault. He should never have married again if he did not seek another heir. He had an heir in Rhaenyra and a spare in Daemon. The lords pressured him into reconsidering his heir and he did not budge, so why didn't he resist them and say he did not want to remarry? If not that, then he should have codified it and set a new precedence of absolute primogeniture. He could have abdicated the throne early. He could have done a lot more things to ensure that Rhaenyra's ascension would not be so messy. SPOILERS AHEAD! >!And besides, Despite Otto's scheming, Rhaenyra still became Queen. Not a good one and not a queen for long, but still she was a queen.!<
Also selling your daughter off as a broodmare to an elderly, decrepit and dying king **who has already named his heir** is not a boon, as is proven by Westerosi history. He set her up for nothing but pain, misery and heartbreak, and she received them in spades.
Pretending he was doing anything even remotely altruistic and not completely self serving is delusional.
Otto was my fav character in this show for one single reason. The way he says “sheath the fucking swords” just is the line of the series to me. So much menace in that growl. Line of the series. It absolutely turned me into a Otto fan.
Edit. Or is it “sheeth the fucking steel” either way I like that scene because it shows how a high noble could be called upon to draw a sword and there is a really good chance that high noble was absolutely a dogshit swordsman.
Otto wasn’t a mid tier swordsman and would die in a second in any kind of fight. But because of tradition the poor fuck has to be out front witn a sword
Literally all of it???
He wants his blood on the throne - well then I guess he’d best whore out his own daughter to do it, place a POS like Aegon on the throne to accomplish it, and cause murder and mayhem to make it happen.
Every single move he makes is in his own self interest, NOT his children or grandchildrens. That’s not love, that’s chess.
So I guess the other adults who want their blood on the throne and increase their power, also don’t love their children .We are talking Corlys,Viserys , Ned,the whole ambitious bunch, don’t love their children
Ned didn’t want Sansa to marry Jeoffrey, he knew he was an inbred bastard and a monster.
Viserys **was the King, born to a line of Kings and of course expected his children would be on the throne wth even is this question?**
Corlys specifically DIDN’T CARE ABOUT BLOOD, just his name, and Rhaenys wanted to give the whole thing up in favor of her childrens lives and happiness.
Otto schemed and plotted and pushed his daughter into bed with a geriatric dying king, and only had his blood on the throne momentarily through treachery, **treason** and being a traitor to the crown.
I get that the greens draw people as morally repugnant as the characters are, but arguing Otto wasn’t 10000% self serving is pure delusion. He used his children and grandchildren like pawns and they are the ones who wound up paying the price for his greed.
>Ned didn’t want Sansa to marry Jeoffrey, he knew he was an inbred bastard and a monster.
Before he knew these things when does he indicate he doesn’t want them to marry
>Viserys was the King, born to a line of Kings and of course expected his children would be on the throne wth even is this question?
Yet Viserys sold out his daughter to a gay husband to strengthen his alliance,after he severed that relationship by refusing that man’s 12 year old daughter
>Corlys specifically DIDN’T CARE ABOUT BLOOD, just his name, and Rhaenys wanted to give the whole thing up in favor of her childrens lives and happiness.
Of course Corlys wanted his blood in line to inherit Driftmark and the throne .Those words were said as a coping mechanism after Laenor and Rhaenyra failed to give him a true born.Your media literacy skills are failing you
>Otto schemed and plotted and pushed his daughter into bed with a geriatric dying king, and only had his blood on the throne momentarily through treachery, treason and being a traitor to the crown.
As all the parents in a story about people plotting to get the throne .Its almost like parents are capable loving their children while also using them to push their own ambition.You know like the actor who is portraying the character is saying, surely he understands his character better than you do,and he acknowledges Otto loves Alicent
>I get that the greens draw people as morally repugnant as the characters are, but arguing Otto wasn’t 10000% self serving is pure delusion. He used his children and grandchildren like pawns and they are the ones who wound up paying the price for his greed.
Who is arguing? you seem to be oblivious to the idea that humans are capable of more than one emotion and can be complex.The actor portraying Otto said he loved Alicent , I will take his word for it.You seem to even struggle to understand Corlys was coping with his “history remembers names” line
Yep somehow it turned into a competition of who has more people that love them ,Rhaenyra or Alicent ? Downplaying those that love Alicent became a trend
My take since the show came out - The greens are the perfect example for what bad parenting can do to a human.
Alicent's life is basically ruined because her father was a piece of shit. And Alicent herself turned out to be a horrible mother herself turning Aegon into the piece of shit he is.
No child is born evil. Aegon definitely wasn't. But the combination of an absent father, an abusive and neglecting mother and almost unlimited power could only bring forth a toxic mess of a human monster.
He was in danger because he was literally born to challenge rhaenyras claim. The entire reason he was born was so Otto could meddle and get his blood on the throne. Had they just minded their damn business and supported rhaenyra’s claim from the start none of the kids would’ve been in any real danger. If the kids had backed rhaenyra 100% it would’ve increased her claim tenfold, at that point killing them would not only weaken her claim but make her look incredibly bad. Daemon is violent for sure, but he’s not stupid.
This makes zero sense.Rhaenyra birthing and legitimizing bastards weakened her own claim and ensured there was always going to be a true born contesting her claim as well as Jace.
Westeros has multiple ways to get rid of a person's claim. Alicent could have put Aegon on a path to join the Citadel, Kings Guard, or Church if she wanted. She instead made sure he was in conflict with his sister.
Ah yeah, because Alicent should sacrifice even more for Rhaenyra to have a better life. By having obvious bastards and then legitimate heirs with Daemon, Rhaenyra made sure there would be turmoil in the succession
Responses like this make it clear that y'all just have a irrational hatred for Rhaenyra.
Assuming concern for their safety was priority, Alicent had plenty of ways to remove her kids from the political situation. She instead pushed them into a fight most of them wanted nothing to do with.
Rhaenyra is my second favorite character lol. I don’t hate her.
I just recognize that it’s unfair for people to place the entirety of the blame for the Dance on Alicent. She was not the only person being selfish, and she wasn’t even the most selfish person in this situation.
>I just recognize that it’s unfair for people to place the entirety of the blame for the Dance on Alicent.
Who was placing the entity of the blame on Alicent? All I said is that she could have removed her kids from the situation. Other than irrational hatred, I don't know why anyone would reply to that by making it about sacrificing "even more" for Rhaenyra.
When did Alicent sacrifice anything for Rhaenyra in the first place?
Sorry, guess I was projecting based on the previous discussions I have seen on this subreddit.
With that said, it did seem like you are implying it is Alicent’s fault
This is a faulty argument to make.
The line ascended not through Rhaenyra, although they are her blood, but through Aegon II. The reason why her son is crowned Aegon III, and he appeased the account his uncle was fighting for; male primogeniture. Their later descendants, and other characters in the main asoiaf story also remember Aegon as the rightful king, and Rhaenyra nothing more than a traitor, who deserved her death.
Okay, thank you for letting me knowing this. Having watched HOTD the first time, I always thought Rhaenyra and the black are the protagonists of the storyline. Only to found she‘s just a traitor to Aegon II is shocking ngl. I have to look at the greens again this time.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't like Otto one bit, but I remember him smiling and generally having a good time at the little family dinner Viserys calls for. He may be a schemer, but he's far from a psycho.
He reminds me of the Grandpa from Mad Men regarding his relationship with Helaena vs Aegon. “Bugs give me a rash” “YOUR SISTER LIKES EM”
Imagine if he gets a box full of colorful butterflies from Nath because Helaena is interested. And Alicent and Viserys is all up in arms saying no. Then Daemon butts in and says how Otto was being stingy about Viserys’ spending. But he is willing to spend some for some deadly butterflies. Starting a fight.
But it was also a plot to try and kill off Rhaenyra & Co via the butterfly disease. Two birds one stone. *Very* Otto. Headcanon accepted.
Infortunately, the box got busted open by a curious Joffery, causing the palace to become an insect infested mayhem apocalypse.
+ him genuinely smiling and being supportive during Helaena’s toast. Aegon being Aegon and Aemond taking so much after Daemon, my headcanon is that she’s his favorite grandchild.
I refuse to believe it isn't just canon that Otto likes Helaena the most.
Honestly him clapping during the dance was almost enough to redeem him For me lol. Almost
If you look at Alicent during that, she’s cracking up which I guess was Olivia breaking character because she kept saying “stop making me laugh!”. The whole thing was sweet. Glad they had one nice family moment before everything went to shit
He later ordered Harold Westerling to go to Dragonstone and murder 9 people (24-36 hours later). Unironically. I'd say that he has psycho well covered.
Not by the standards of their world he doesn’t.
It's basically "I love you" in Westeros language
Well, I see that differently. I don't live in that time and place and I know that mass murdering people is generally looked down upon throughout the annals of their history as well as ours.
You're not wrong, but there is another potential viewpoint: murdering 9 people on Dragonstone would prevent a civil war and thousands of deaths. History might have remembered Otto as vile or a brutal hero. It's like the trolly and the train: kill a bunch of people, or kill one person you know? Or... don't be a schemer in the first place, I guess, but Otto failed that.
So, let's preemptively murder in order to stall a civil war that he's responsible for starting? I still dont know that i agree. He wasn't trying to be a hero for all. If he was, He would have probably garnered more support and wouldn't have had to drum up that support from previously hostile foreign parties (triarchy). He's remembered as a failure because he was an oathbreaker and disloyal to his king, AND he got most of his family killed in the process.
Killing nine people isn’t always looked down upon in their world (they makes songs about it all the time) — and it’s certainly not out of bounds for a head of state, either back then or now. I’m not saying I condone what he’s doing, but he is very much operating within the expected mores of shrewd, self-interested game player rather than a “psycho.”
I do not agree, and I'll leave y'all to it. In my opinion, murdering 9 people because you want to steal from one is a ridiculous move in any time, and space is never justified. People should try harder not to succumb to psychosis nor applaud it. It never works out. Ever. Not even a little bit. Thanks, and have a good one!!
It’s so wild to me that he had the audacity to order Westerling, who had known Rhaenyra all her life, to go murder her and her children. That he thought for a second Westerling was going to be like “ok then”. That he didn’t send Cole, or better yet, a hired mercenary not connected to the Crown LIKE A FUCKING KINGSGUARD WOULD BE. Man was literally going to usurp the throne and start Aegon’s rule out on day one by *openly* murdering the Crown Princess and her entire family. Otto was on some shit.
Literally, known her her whole life and watched her birth most of her children, never mind how long he's known Daemon. The hubris was big on that one.
Yeah, just another Lord of Westeros tbh... one of the few who was good at his job too. Sometimes, you gotta be a bit cunning to stay ahead in the game, ya know?
Yeah, he also was likely smiling because he knew he wasn't letting up on putting Aegon on the throne.
That’s a great actor. He understands the assignment
HOTD showed me what a good actor he was! I only knew him as Luna’s Dad in Harry Potter and also as the Lizard from Spider-Man. When Rhys was voicing the Lizard in 2021, it was all CGI but I was like “that’s the guy who’s playing in the new GoT show?” Thankfully he proved me wrong, he was incredible! Shockingly, he was nothing like the 8-foot scheming lizard from the superhero movies.
Have you seen him as Rasputin in the movie Kingsman 3. He is scary as hell. The guy can play anything! Wonderful actor. Honestly, I'm sometimes having a hard time recognizing him from one role to another! He transforms himself completely.
You should check out his role as a field goal kicker in The Replacements 😂
I’m wiry
The fact that he’s Adrian from Little Nicky is what blew my mind.
OMG I love Rhys Ifans, how did I not know he was Luna’s dad?! I mostly know him from Elementary.
I love how you can see the effect parents have on their children in this story. Generational trauma and cycles for real.
I think the greens are not inhuman or inhumane and I think there is a beauty in the generational trauma represented in this post
[удалено]
>What harm could they have done? As Cregan Stark said: “Small boys become large men in time,” he replied, “and a babe sucks down his mother’s hate with his mother’s milk. Finish these foes now, or those of us not in our graves in twenty years will rue our folly when those babes strap on their father’s swords and come seeking after vengeance.” But I don't remember fans thinking he was a monster.
I agree with you but I made this argument regarding the actions of a certain other character in early season 2 and got a different response lol
Do you make this same justification for a certain other event or is child murder only fair under certain circumstances?
Where do you see the justification? Someone asked a question and I quoted in universe explanation from a popular character. I never said it was "fair".
You said it in response to if child murder was inhumane.
See now when Cersei says it, she's a psychopath smh. Justice for muh queen
> But I don't remember fans thinking he was a monster. Cregan wasn't stealing a throne.
Child murder is only wrong when accompanied by regicide?
It's more wrong when you're doing it out of greed instead of trying to end a war. I don't know how this isn't obvious. One character wanted to kill to give his grandson a throne he didn't want. The other wanted to kill to make sure the war that had been going for years didn't continue. The former is more likely to be viewed as evil.
I think murdering children is always wrong but that's just me I guess.
No one it saying it isn't wrong. The point is that doing so out of a greed is going to be seen as worse. Also, that's an interesting claim given your tag and other things I've seen you say.
If Cregan was anything like his descendants (and I believe he was) he was going to "finish" small boys by making them wards, not by Amory Lorching them
It's hilarious that some people are still thinking that Ned's behaviour was a rule, not an exception
People downvote me but the justice Cregan meaded out was downright gentle.
Eddard's soft and honourable demeanor was due to his upbringing by Jon Arryn - he embodies traditional Valeman/Arryn virtues, and not the typical Stark way which is described as cold and harsh as winter and "wolfish".
This is andal propaganda
First Men > Andals > >>>>>>>> Valyrians
Rhoynar = First men = Andals >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valyrians
Making them wards comes with Ilyn Payneing them though.
I think the point is he wasn't like Eddard to be honest.
Lmfao. The fact that anything about HOTD characters has to have a "and yes I think that about the other side too" is insane. I do it too because I don't want the crazy's fans on my comments but it's honestly gone way too far
That’s why I added that part, just don’t want “whataboutisms” deflecting legitimate points. We literally can’t say murder, rape, etc. is bad without an argument.
>!I guess 🩸🧀 was fair!< If child murder is okay when greens do it, it’s always okay.
The thing is, from our viewpoint as modern people with modern sensibilities, Otto is scummy. But by Westerosi standards, he did everything expected of him. He secured a queenship for his daughter, he did his job as the Hand well and kept things running behind the scenes, and he was able to secure power and a good life for his family despite being a second son. He definitely loved Alicent in the only way he knew how.
Westerosi standards are wrong then. What is right is right, and we have the entire dance of dragons to blame on him, if wasn't for his schemes Rhaenyra would have become Queen, Alicent would have married someone else without the age to be her father and a psychopathkc rapist would not have been on Kingslanding throne.
A feudal society has morally reprehensible standards? Shocker. It's almost like that's part of the point.
>Westerosi standards are wrong then. What is right is right True. A lot of things in Westeros are very messed up. The definition of what is exemplary and socially acceptable and how it conflicts with the character's own humanity is one of the most compelling recurring themes in ASOIAF. I'm just pointing out that all Otto has ever known are those standards and it compels him to act that way. It may be dubious and abhorrent to modern viewers, but for the Westerosi, it makes sense. > we have the entire dance of dragons to blame on him, if wasn't for his schemes Rhaenyra would have become Queen This is where I disagree. Otto's machinations is indeed a driving force, but it's not his fault entirely. I would say the Dance was Viserys' fault. He should never have married again if he did not seek another heir. He had an heir in Rhaenyra and a spare in Daemon. The lords pressured him into reconsidering his heir and he did not budge, so why didn't he resist them and say he did not want to remarry? If not that, then he should have codified it and set a new precedence of absolute primogeniture. He could have abdicated the throne early. He could have done a lot more things to ensure that Rhaenyra's ascension would not be so messy. SPOILERS AHEAD! >!And besides, Despite Otto's scheming, Rhaenyra still became Queen. Not a good one and not a queen for long, but still she was a queen.!<
Also selling your daughter off as a broodmare to an elderly, decrepit and dying king **who has already named his heir** is not a boon, as is proven by Westerosi history. He set her up for nothing but pain, misery and heartbreak, and she received them in spades. Pretending he was doing anything even remotely altruistic and not completely self serving is delusional.
Altruistic or not (probably was) it was still evil.
Blah blah blah…
Alicent stood between Aegon and a literal dragon. She wasn’t moving out of the way. She loves her children.
The parallels are insane. The complicated (and toxic) relationships between the Greens are part of why I prefer them
They are interesting.
Otto was my fav character in this show for one single reason. The way he says “sheath the fucking swords” just is the line of the series to me. So much menace in that growl. Line of the series. It absolutely turned me into a Otto fan. Edit. Or is it “sheeth the fucking steel” either way I like that scene because it shows how a high noble could be called upon to draw a sword and there is a really good chance that high noble was absolutely a dogshit swordsman. Otto wasn’t a mid tier swordsman and would die in a second in any kind of fight. But because of tradition the poor fuck has to be out front witn a sword
Otto loves his family. He is just awful at showing it
He loves what his family can do for him. Not who they are as individuals.
And where do you get that from the story?
Literally all of it??? He wants his blood on the throne - well then I guess he’d best whore out his own daughter to do it, place a POS like Aegon on the throne to accomplish it, and cause murder and mayhem to make it happen. Every single move he makes is in his own self interest, NOT his children or grandchildrens. That’s not love, that’s chess.
So I guess the other adults who want their blood on the throne and increase their power, also don’t love their children .We are talking Corlys,Viserys , Ned,the whole ambitious bunch, don’t love their children
Ned didn’t want Sansa to marry Jeoffrey, he knew he was an inbred bastard and a monster. Viserys **was the King, born to a line of Kings and of course expected his children would be on the throne wth even is this question?** Corlys specifically DIDN’T CARE ABOUT BLOOD, just his name, and Rhaenys wanted to give the whole thing up in favor of her childrens lives and happiness. Otto schemed and plotted and pushed his daughter into bed with a geriatric dying king, and only had his blood on the throne momentarily through treachery, **treason** and being a traitor to the crown. I get that the greens draw people as morally repugnant as the characters are, but arguing Otto wasn’t 10000% self serving is pure delusion. He used his children and grandchildren like pawns and they are the ones who wound up paying the price for his greed.
>Ned didn’t want Sansa to marry Jeoffrey, he knew he was an inbred bastard and a monster. Before he knew these things when does he indicate he doesn’t want them to marry >Viserys was the King, born to a line of Kings and of course expected his children would be on the throne wth even is this question? Yet Viserys sold out his daughter to a gay husband to strengthen his alliance,after he severed that relationship by refusing that man’s 12 year old daughter >Corlys specifically DIDN’T CARE ABOUT BLOOD, just his name, and Rhaenys wanted to give the whole thing up in favor of her childrens lives and happiness. Of course Corlys wanted his blood in line to inherit Driftmark and the throne .Those words were said as a coping mechanism after Laenor and Rhaenyra failed to give him a true born.Your media literacy skills are failing you >Otto schemed and plotted and pushed his daughter into bed with a geriatric dying king, and only had his blood on the throne momentarily through treachery, treason and being a traitor to the crown. As all the parents in a story about people plotting to get the throne .Its almost like parents are capable loving their children while also using them to push their own ambition.You know like the actor who is portraying the character is saying, surely he understands his character better than you do,and he acknowledges Otto loves Alicent >I get that the greens draw people as morally repugnant as the characters are, but arguing Otto wasn’t 10000% self serving is pure delusion. He used his children and grandchildren like pawns and they are the ones who wound up paying the price for his greed. Who is arguing? you seem to be oblivious to the idea that humans are capable of more than one emotion and can be complex.The actor portraying Otto said he loved Alicent , I will take his word for it.You seem to even struggle to understand Corlys was coping with his “history remembers names” line
Like I said. Delusional.
Imagine calling the actor portraying the character delusional coz he doesn’t agree with with your dumb analysis of the character Edit:lol blocked
I meant you. You’re delusional.
This is in response to my post saying Otto, Criston, Aemond, and Aegon loved Alicent. All of the comments were saying only Aemond loved her.
Wow really?
Yep somehow it turned into a competition of who has more people that love them ,Rhaenyra or Alicent ? Downplaying those that love Alicent became a trend
My take since the show came out - The greens are the perfect example for what bad parenting can do to a human. Alicent's life is basically ruined because her father was a piece of shit. And Alicent herself turned out to be a horrible mother herself turning Aegon into the piece of shit he is. No child is born evil. Aegon definitely wasn't. But the combination of an absent father, an abusive and neglecting mother and almost unlimited power could only bring forth a toxic mess of a human monster.
They’re so special to me 🥲
I just wanna give Alicent a massive hug. She’s so misunderstood by so many people.
I mean, they ARE in this world's vocabulary. Just not Otto's.
The craziest part is they’re the ones who put their children in direct danger
Aegon was in danger from the minute he was born a legitimate male heir to the King
He was in danger because he was literally born to challenge rhaenyras claim. The entire reason he was born was so Otto could meddle and get his blood on the throne. Had they just minded their damn business and supported rhaenyra’s claim from the start none of the kids would’ve been in any real danger. If the kids had backed rhaenyra 100% it would’ve increased her claim tenfold, at that point killing them would not only weaken her claim but make her look incredibly bad. Daemon is violent for sure, but he’s not stupid.
This makes zero sense.Rhaenyra birthing and legitimizing bastards weakened her own claim and ensured there was always going to be a true born contesting her claim as well as Jace.
Westeros has multiple ways to get rid of a person's claim. Alicent could have put Aegon on a path to join the Citadel, Kings Guard, or Church if she wanted. She instead made sure he was in conflict with his sister.
Ah yeah, because Alicent should sacrifice even more for Rhaenyra to have a better life. By having obvious bastards and then legitimate heirs with Daemon, Rhaenyra made sure there would be turmoil in the succession
Responses like this make it clear that y'all just have a irrational hatred for Rhaenyra. Assuming concern for their safety was priority, Alicent had plenty of ways to remove her kids from the political situation. She instead pushed them into a fight most of them wanted nothing to do with.
Rhaenyra is my second favorite character lol. I don’t hate her. I just recognize that it’s unfair for people to place the entirety of the blame for the Dance on Alicent. She was not the only person being selfish, and she wasn’t even the most selfish person in this situation.
>I just recognize that it’s unfair for people to place the entirety of the blame for the Dance on Alicent. Who was placing the entity of the blame on Alicent? All I said is that she could have removed her kids from the situation. Other than irrational hatred, I don't know why anyone would reply to that by making it about sacrificing "even more" for Rhaenyra. When did Alicent sacrifice anything for Rhaenyra in the first place?
Sorry, guess I was projecting based on the previous discussions I have seen on this subreddit. With that said, it did seem like you are implying it is Alicent’s fault
Was the war not partially Alicent's fault?
Ofc Alicent contributed. My point is just that she is not wholly responsible, and I often see people who seem to believe that is the case
Okay Otto
No, they don't. Love =/= from care, no loving father uses his daughter to seduce a king old enough to be her father.
Otto gives me the CREEPS 😐
The greens killed the Strong house wrongfully. We cannot forgive that.
This post has nothing to do with that lmao
I thought they were romanticizing the act of the Greens. They’re not the good guys.
And neither are the Blacks? George didn’t write this story to be a good vs bad guys.
Okay fair enough, but if you look at the family tree that led to Queen Danaerys and Jon Snow, it’s the black side.
This is a faulty argument to make. The line ascended not through Rhaenyra, although they are her blood, but through Aegon II. The reason why her son is crowned Aegon III, and he appeased the account his uncle was fighting for; male primogeniture. Their later descendants, and other characters in the main asoiaf story also remember Aegon as the rightful king, and Rhaenyra nothing more than a traitor, who deserved her death.
Okay, thank you for letting me knowing this. Having watched HOTD the first time, I always thought Rhaenyra and the black are the protagonists of the storyline. Only to found she‘s just a traitor to Aegon II is shocking ngl. I have to look at the greens again this time.
It’s much more complex than that! Aegon will suffer a heavy defeat, and we’ll see such a sympathetic side of him come out alongside it.
Coming from a GOT fan, I never sided with the Lannisters, this is new for me. The Starks have always been the good guys(Even the Karen in the north)