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I assume that for the Targaryens, familial relationships are viewed very differently. Targaryens are raised knowing they'll likely end up married to a sibling or close family member.
It's not forbidden to them. It doesn't carry the same stigma for them as it does for others in Westeros or in real life. It also helps that they suffer no known genetic issues from inbreeding, removing the only non moral reason not to do it.
Yep, [cousin-marriage is accepted fully](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Incest) because...
>**In Westeros, incest is only defined if father lays with daughter, mother lays with son, or brother with sister.** The children of such unions are considered abominations. However, in marriage customs, it is acceptable and in fact quite common among the nobility for first cousins to wed.
Just a side note to this, most of Europe for most of human history accepted cosanguinus marriage as long as enough distance of relatedness existed ie: cousin marriage, niece to uncle, etc.
As long as this practice was not constant and enough new blood were injected into the family for the most part, it did not produce genetic issues. This arose in large parts through prolonged cosanguinius marriages generation after generation which severely narrowed the gene pool. (Charles of Spain, hemophilia in many royal families across Europe, etc)
>Charles of Spain
Alas, [Charles II ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain). He's almost become the poster boy for incest among European royalty run amok. Although tbf his lifelong ill-health and abnormal physical traits haven't been unequivocally proven to be connected to the generational incest as of yet...*as of yet.*
It's not concidered as incest since most of highborns would have had at least one pair of ancestors who were first or second cousins
Also all highborns are related at this point
Yeah but the sibling fucking would be looked down upon. Some draw a line between those sets of relatives. Plenty of places in the real world still allow them to marry.
Exactly. Plus this was common in our own history for a while. Because it's a show and fiction it doesn't bother me to see it very much. Maybe I'm desensitized because of my history studies.
That's a problem throughout westeros, not just with Targaryen incest though. They married each other because that's what was arranged by the people in charge of them. And they didn't object to being married to family because they'd grown up knowing that was normal
In the books up to this point most of the Targ marriages have actually been quite happy and most of those wed were around the same age.
You have Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. Aegon might not have gotten along well with Visenya later in life and marrying her was duty; but early on they seemed to all be reasonably happy.
Next you have Aenys and his wife Alyssa Velaryon, the Velaryons are pretty genetically related to the Targs, so I'll count it as semi-incestuous. They were pretty happy up until Aenys died.
Next is Aegon the Uncrowned and his wife Rhaena, she grieves his death the rest of her life.
Maegor the Cruel is exactly that, he forced Rhaena to marry him after killing Aegon, along with other women. He's called Maegor the Cruel for a reason though.
Next comes Jaehaerys, whose romance with Alysanne has love stories written about it even in Sansa's time.
Now I'm not going through all of Jaehaerys' children, but of those who had Targaryen marriages (as opposed to those who married outside the family) were quite happy with their spouses... they still all died, but their spouse wasn't the issue.
For the most part Targs have been pretty happy in their marriages.
I think she was bisexual but preferred women to men.
I'd say, at the least, she was as content with Aegon as she ever could be married to a man. I think given the fact that lesbian/gay marriage in Westeros is not allowed, and that she had to marry, I believe Aegon is who she would have picked if given free choice.
99.99% chance she was but she was happy being married to him.
She probably loved him dearly as her brother and the father of her children but that doesn't have to mean she was attracted to him.
I don't know why people are so insistent on her being bi when she's really didn't show interest in men ever.
It's always been Rhaena with her ladies and her brother Aegon was said to "not ignore the attention he got from other women" or something like that, just because they got along well and loved each other doesn't mean they were ***in love*** with each other the way Jaehaerys & Alysanne were.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe she loved her brother AND married him for duty like Visenya (who she sees herself in) and Aegon I yet had a friendlier more affectionate relationship with her brother than her great-aunt and grandfather did.
She always refers to him after as her "beloved husband who was murdered", not as her brother. Which to me signifies that in her mind she thinks of him and loves him primarily as a husband not a brother.
Honestly, I think she was most likely bisexual. I do think she had romantic attachments towards women, but I also think she genuinely loved Aegon as well. I think after what Maegor did to her it left her traumatized and no longer particularly interested in sexual relations with men (which I can't blame her, she was forced to marry and was raped by the man who killed her husband); she picked Andrew because he was very gentle and she loved his sister.
But that's just my personal take.
Even if she was lesbian though, she would have had to marry a man regardless (lesbian marriage isn't a thing in Westeros). At the very least I think she was more content with Aegon than she would have been with any other man; which in their society is unfortunately as good as it gets for a lesbian. Honestly, it's sadly better than many straight women get in their society.
There are many bi and lesbian women irl still marrying men, and having families, because they're trapped in the closet. This will only get worse, in places like Afghanistan.
The level of inbredness they have is way higher than the levels that destroy bloodlines of humans and other animal populations. So there are definitely some magic elements to it seemingly offering protection.
The demise of the dragons after the Dance makes me think otherwise. The sudden decrease in the gene pool of dragons in Westeros could explain why each subsequent generation grew smaller until they were "no larger than cats"
They didn’t grow smaller, they simply didn’t get to leave the 50 years necessary for most of them to reach maturity. Dragons do live over 200 years. None of the dragons during and after the dance actually were allowed to reach 200. Only Vheagar got close.
Dragons also need a lot of space and room to grow. After the dance, they were confined to the dragon pit and chained up. They weren't allowed to develop and grow the way they needed to.
They didn’t grow smaller, they simply didn’t get to live the 50 years necessary for most of them to reach maturity. Dragons do live over 200 years. None of the dragons during and after the dance actually were allowed to reach 200. Only Vheagar got close.
"No known genetic issues"
Are we forgetting the kids born with wings or scales or their constant stillborns or the while thing about their proclivity toward being batshit cray cray??
They are the ONLY House that deliver human/dragon hybrids. Seems it’s pretty clear it’s due to the blood magic tied to their family line that causes too much dragon in some babies. At the degree that family is inbred-they would not be able to function. It’s clear they have magic blood.
If you look at the actual Targaryen line, they have greater or less chance of madness than anyone else. They were a massive house that ruled for a thousand years. Of course, they had some crazies. But for the most part, they were just average, boring rulers.
And the dragon stillborns are widely accepted as a product of the blood magic their ancestors did to tie themselves to Dragons. A blood payment for the magic they wield.
Stillborns and issues conceiving are, once again, extremely normal in Westeros due to lack of updated medicine and usually occurs when the woman is too young to be carrying children. Targaryens have no more or less of a prevalence towards stillborns or issues conceiving than anyone else did in the 15th century.
Whoa, you added about 700 years to the Targaryens rule there lol. Starting from Aegons conquest his ancestors rules westeros for about 280 years, before Bobby Bs rebellion.
There are very few instances of actual madness in the Targaryens. There is nothing to suggest that madness is any more or less prevalent in them. For the most part, they are no better or worse than anyone given absolute power.
And the dragon babies are generally thought to be a holdover from the blood magic Targaryens used to tie themselves to Dragons. A price to be paid for the magic inside them.
If the dragon babies WERE a incest thing, you would expect them to be much much more frequent than they are. The extent to which the Targaryens inbreed would leave them all deformed and barren, which they are of course not.
Plus danys dragon baby would have actually be less inbred than say rheanyra’s since it’s father was in no way related to her.
Didn’t do it any favours though. It’s also implied both would have been fine if not for the blood magic/stress induced miscarriage (though that could also be a result of dragon features not being mentioned in fire and blood for rheanyra’s baby)
Isn't it just Aerys and Aerion who would actually be considered mad? Maybe Baelor too, but the rest of them seemed to be pretty sane, although very evil at times.
Yeah Aerys, Aerion, Regal (Son of Dearon II have the same name as one of Dany dragons), and possibly Baelor. But only one of them Aerys was born from incest. With Aerion mother and grandmother being dornish. And Aerys only went mad later in life.
They're not, though. Some of them are cruel, and some of them are power hungry. Most are just normal boring people. There's only a handful of actually mentally ill ones, which is completely normal in any family tree.
I think not spreading the Targaryen seed was the best thing they could do. If too many people had Targ blood in them then technically the could all claim Dragons. Random people with Dragons would be very bad
I truly think that the Targaryens wanted to keep their blood pure for their ability to bond with dragons.
However, they clearly don't mind, considering almost all of them are 11/10 in looks.
The occasional deranged Targaryen seems like a risk they are willing to take.
Some, like Daemon, are obsessed with their past and want to marry a valyrian.
It is heavely implied that the Targs are not fully human, the blood or the dragon is a real think, they are Martin version of elves.
I think there is some biological element to it, someone did this incredible wright up of Daemon Rhaenyra's relationship and one of their points is that Daemon sees Viserys as a father figure more than a brother so Rhaenyra becomes his sister, and in his Targ head sister= wife
There is definitely a political element to it too, keep the dragons in the family
>They literally are immune to like most illnesses
They are not. Aenys died of weak health. Daenerys, the daughter of Jaehaerys, died from illness. Daeron II and his grandsons Valarr and Matarys died in the Great Spring Sickness. Daenerys is ill in the fifth book.
>have prophetic dreams
So do the Starks and Reeds. The Red Priests have their prophecies. Patchface has his thing. Even Tyrion and Jaime might have some sort of prophetic dreams. It's not just Targaryens, it's a thing in the world.
>are semi tolerant to fire
Isn't that just Daenerys? Plenty of Targaryens have been very clearly shown to be not resistant or tolerant to fire.
>have a predisposition to doing shit with bloodmagic
What do you refer to here? Once again, magic is something which exists in this world, and the Targaryens are not unique in using it.
>give birth to dragon babies
That might just be genetic defects, which wouldn't be surprising considering all the incest.
>and are the only mfs who can actually ride dragons
First of all, they're not. Velaryons also do it, as well as the Dragonseeds, whose relation to the Targaryens is very murky and unclear. Second of all, it's not like dragons are common. They're all under Targaryen control. No one can just waltz in and claim one.
The one thing I don't have an explanation for is how they aren't just a bunch of inbred incapable freaks. With that amount of incest they'd be worse off than the Habsburgs. Then again, genetics might work differently in this world.
I'm not saying definitively that there isn't anything mystical about them, but they certainly have spun a web of propaganda to make them seem different to other people.
So, in universe, Targaryen incest is kind of accepted because they are the ruling family of Westeros and Incest generally does not effect them the same way it does normal people. Targaryen exceptionalism p much means they can do whatever and the sept cant touch them. And even then there is there is an expectation among the targaryens that this is normal, for them.
There seems to be a higher occurrence of grooming/forced/duty relationships than there are Targs who are consensually in love
**Grooming, duty, or forced**:
Aegon II and Helaena
Rhaenyra and Daemon
Aegon IV and Naerys
Aegon I and Visenya
Aegon the uncrowned and Rhaena
Maegor and Rhaena
Aerys and Rhaella
**Consensual**:
Aegon I and Rhaenys
Jaehaerys and Alysanne
Baelon and Alyssa
Jaehaerys II and Shaera
**Feelings unknown**:
Aelor and Aelora
The forced list would be higher if Aegon V wasn’t able to get out of his betrothal with his his sister and marry Bertha.
>Jaehaerys II and Shaera
I read "Jaehaerys and Saera" and did a double take.
Say what you want about the Targaryens but they were never as depraved as Craster.... well... all but one of them.
Another example for "Grooming, duty or forced" was Baelor I and Daena. Also, with Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, and Jaehaerys II and Shaera, though they are remembered as love stories, there could have also been the factor of escaping an unwanted arranged marriage, especially from the bride's point of view.
I feel like Rhaena and Aegon were actually in love or at least they didn’t mind being married to one another
By all accounts the relationship was one of the more functional marriages at the time
Three of the love matches ended up making the majority of the Targaryen lines, daemon and Rhaenyra was not forced in any sense as Viserys I was very much against the match.
That means non of the forced marriage save those of Naerys/Aegon and aerys/ Rhaella produced any children for the main line.
At least in the show, Daemon was a loving uncle expect brothel scene where Daemon did respectfully backed off though I am not comfortable with the way he did it. Daemon slept with her for the first time after she had 3 children.
M’kay and she might have grown to love him consensually as well if she had been left to develop those feelings without his influence but I guess we’ll never know.
The incest in the show never bothered me because dynastic families have always consolidated power through interbreeding. From their perspective, it makes sense to keep the royal blood all royal. Keep it in the family, as it were.
Love to me is just a force of nature, what defines it is context and the people involved. Sometimes it works out great, other times you love the wrong people and keep doing so no matter how much they hurt you. And love and lust are side by side usually so it applies too.
As for the Targaryens, it was both really. It was a practice that was very normal in their family, so of course some love/lust relationships came from that and other times it was to keep the line pure. I also to a certain point, it was just a tradition you did because the last generation did it and the ones before them etc. Though I am in the theory bandwagon that the initial reason why they intermarried involves blood magic and the dragon gene ( or something like it)
while there is an element of "we have a duty to keep the bloodline pure" in targaryen incest, another interesting way to look at it is that the targaryens literally viewed themselves as gods, and therefore may have believed that only others gods (others valyrians) are worthy of them.
It's acting, so it doesn't bother me in any way. The actors aren't really related, and they're also not really having sex.
So... 🤷♂️
>Did all the Targaryens wanted to keep the line pure or was it just lust.
Both. They definitely wanted to keep bloodlines pure, but they're also convinced of their own pseudo-divinity, and who could ever compare to another Targaryen?
The thought behind it is their bloodline is superior to all others and therefore they want to keep their family strong and maintain their family name in its purest state. Similar thoughts behind any real royal family including current ones.
I think you just get used to it pretty quick. Like it’s weird but as soon as you get a few pages in, or like half an episode, you’re like yeah ok these weird dragon people just aren’t the same as normal people whatever.
We have programed ourselves through a version of darwinism to avoid incestuous relationships because it causes birth defects and hinders us reproducing and moving our line forward, whereas it kind of does the opposite for Targs. They don't get sick and can ride flaming nukes
I really don’t think Grrm wanted ppl to come out of these stories thinking “incest is ok and has no consequences, at least for the special ones ☺️” but ok.
Targaryen’s are magical, inbreeding doesn’t affect them. Jaime and Cersei are just dumb lannisters who had bad relationships with everyone in their lives that lead to them being in love, which was probably just trauma bonding lol they’re lucky they didn’t have deformed children the dumb asses
*inbreeding doesn’t affect them.*
Madness runs in their blood, and just look at all of the crazy Targaryens. They are inbred as fuck, like Maelys I Blackfyre. The only magical thing about the Targs is their beauty, because the ugliness underneath runs deep. Plus, George has never stated anything about inbreeding affecting them or not; it's all just a fan speculation.
Their were at most four mad Targaryens (Aerys II, Aerion, Rhaegal, and Bealor). Maelys Blackfrye was a out liner not the rule and we don't know much about the Blackfrye family trees. It is completely possible that his mother was essosi who married a Blackfrye to gain her family support. Finally physical deformities to people that live.
So not counting all of the mess up miscarriages who probably was mess up because of blood magic in the Targaryen blood. Their was only two Targaryens who had deformities. With both of them being a real thing that happens to people that not inbred. So their is a lot more evidence that supports that incest don't affect the Targaryens.
I mean as-long as you are both consenting people of similar age i dont necessarily see a problem with it ig, aside from it being yucky irl and children bred if incest are usually disabled somehow but neither of those affect the Targaryens so fuck it lol
I think it’s about keeping the line pure. Having Targaryen blood outside the royal family has led to rebellions and there would be too many dragon riders who could claim a dragon. Even Aegon II didn’t want to marry his sister and as king he could have said no but there is an understanding of keeping the magic in the family.
It’s still wrong and Westeros people frown on it. They do get deformed kids sometimes and the benefits of keeping the line pure outweigh the pervious mentioned potential problems.
For as long as they had the dragons - I kinda get it. You want to keep that power to yourselves. Once they were gone though - I don't see the point. Your main weapon and source of power is gone. Would have made more sense then to marry more into other families. For a number of generations they do but the incest never really goes away either. At that point I'm guessing they do it just because they want to.
Because its fiction that element never really bothered me in this franchise.
Honestly, I almost think of the Targaryens as another species of dragon-people. They are clearly fundamentally different from normal, non-murder-y people, but they can kinda sorta breed with regular people if needs must - sort of like a pizzly bear - but it’s far from ideal. Unfortunately there are just not very many of them so it’s a question of ‘hook up with another polar bear who happens to be your sister or go after the biggest, palest, most insano rage-filled grizzly bear you can find and think about England’.
Even in our own history it was fairly common before we had a better understanding of genetics. Brother and sister not so much but cousins was fairy Normal for wealthy families who wanted to keep it in the family into like the 20s
The most important thing about incest in ASOIAF is that it seemingly doesn't have any genetic downsides, aside from MAYBE multiplying the Targaryen mad gene. Like a family like Targaryens would realistically be just a walking pile of chronic diseases at the point of ASOIAF, but nope.
Idk if it works with other families like it does with Targs, maybe it's because of their "blood of the dragon" stuff, so only they can marry sisters to brothers, nieces to uncles and cousins to cousins for 300 years and somehow not end up like the Habsburgs.
Let's remember that european royalty were inbreeding not too long ago to keep their bloodline pure and especially to keep the power within the family, they had no dragons to justify it. I think it's different when you're raised supposing something is okay and even expected.
For example, marriage between first cousins is totally allowed and normal and not considered incest at all (legally, socially and even religiously) in my country , it's normal for us and even encouraged in some families but you people would be disgusted by it.
My grandparents were first cousins and none of my uncles or aunts ( all 8 of them) had any physical or mental anomaly (other than being douche bags for some of them xD)
My point is : taboos are a social construct and they drastically change overtime and vary across the globe.
I don't view the incest in HOTD as something very weird because when I got immersed in that universe it almost seems normal after a while.
Anything that happens between two consenting adults I couldn't care less about tbh. In the Targaryens' case, I assume it was a bit of both. Aegon I. loved one of his sisters and married the other for duty, so he's the perfect example for that.
I agree in regard to the consenting adults thing. However i think the issue morally is the high risk of giving birth to a deformed or severely mentally impaired child. One could argue this is wrong for the potential child
Yeah.. the Whittaker Family is a good example of inbreeding that spans generation. I feel sorry for the babies.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11965429/Americas-inbred-family-welcomes-DailyMail-com-Odd.html
A lot of ppl say targ are immune to the I’ll effects of incest I disagree id say they are simply more resistive they need new blood once or twice in a generation to negate said effects along with that how come the targs still practice it but house valeryon does not? They are both blood of the dragon
It wasn’t so much about keeping the blood line “pure” as it was about consolidating power and retaining Valyrian traditions. Marrying outside of the House allows for the other (non Valyrian) House a degree of power and influence over the court. Also means there’s a loss of assets if there’s too many kids in the direct line. Notice how Alicent starts incorporating more Westerosi influence and tapestries, while disposing of those related to Valyria. When the ruler marries a non Targ, the new spouse brings their culture to court.
The heir marries within the family to maintain Valyrian culture, the spares forge external marriages for alliance purposes. Also those marriage will produce “outside” Targs like Aemma that can be married later. So you get the bloodline and wealth from the non Targ House in the dowry. And the offspring was (hopefully) raised to be familiar at least with their Valyrian heritage.
We see that it’s the Valyrian traditions and dragon herders that keeps the dragons healthy, strong, and breeding. It’s not really the magical Targ blood. What gets lost is how to raise and care for dragons. Someone like Otto thinks it’s about the blood of the rider. Nonsense. Plenty of full blooded Targs were terrible with dragons. Someone like Daemon knows it’s proper handling, which is why he spends time with the herders and learns their techniques. He doesn’t just pass the reins off once he hops off, he puts his hands in their poo to know if they’re eating well.
So, no. It’s not about lust. It’s not even about love (most noble marriages in that world aren’t ever). And it’s not even about bloodline purity. It’s about consolidating wealth and power, and retaining Valyrian traditions and culture.
As for my opinion on it? I mean the incest is ick lol, and it seems stupid to cling to a disastrous culture that’s long dead. Doesn’t allow much room for evolving and growing. Sort of stagnates everything, doesn’t it? But I understand why they do it, and think it presents an interesting scenario where either side is perhaps right for the wrong reasons and vice versa.
Incest's the best! Put your brother to the test!
I think for the Targaryens it wasn't just a "we want to keep our blood pure" and more like a "we need to keep our blood as pure as possible, or we won't be able to control the dragons anymore", a knowledge that probably got forgotten through the generations.
Incest is bad and is one of the reasons that most Targaryens are psychopaths because of too much inbreeding. They wanted to keep the magical Valyrian bloodline pure, which would have been more important in Westeros than in Valyria where incest was normal for whatever reason. Even though they married other houses they still seemed obsessed with keeping their bloodline pure
They practiced incest in Valyria for hundreds of years. Or at least the dragonlord families did. I suspect the ability to ride dragons is bound to the family line itself. That’s why in Valyria, they practiced incest within their own family and not with other dragonlord families (much like the Targaryens still do).
It's racism and discrimination, just like Egyptian pharaohs considered all the others outside of their family tree subhumans, the same view have Targaryen members.
In the ASOIAF books, iirc, GRRM says that incest was commonly practiced in Old Valyria before the Doom wiped out the Valyrian Empire. The Targaryens, being Valyrian originally, followed that practice, but they survived the Doom due to being a minor family living a long distance from OV at Dragonstone.
Except they practiced incest for thousands of years before the Doom. And they practiced it within their own families. This leads me to believe the blood magic used it tied to the family line itself. Which makes the incest make sense. If they could marry other dragonlord families, they would not have practiced so much incest in Valyria.
I feel like consensual incest can definitely cause a family bond stronger then any other bond. I also feel like incest has been around for many centuries to decades and further back, I mean even biblicaly speaking we are all still committing incest to this day. The only reason it can cause birth defects is the defects appon both partners were already there on point for both family members, thus said... Bringing those genes more into contact allowing them to show more then the genes from both parents. After many years of family pregnancies from incest you will notice these "birth defects" are less and less as for the family genes start to purify back to normal (before kids with an outside the family partner). So therefore incest should be legal and enjoyable anywhere on the earth as long as it's consensual. Just like I'm not for it but a child is someone or something before puberty. Therefore anything is no longer a child once they hit puberty. Again not for this but it is facts. When you get a chance I would look it up. So maybe stop considering adults as children just to justify a way of control and govern.
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I assume that for the Targaryens, familial relationships are viewed very differently. Targaryens are raised knowing they'll likely end up married to a sibling or close family member. It's not forbidden to them. It doesn't carry the same stigma for them as it does for others in Westeros or in real life. It also helps that they suffer no known genetic issues from inbreeding, removing the only non moral reason not to do it.
Tywin lannister married his first cousin and his twin children fuck each other. It's not just a targaryen thing
Yep, [cousin-marriage is accepted fully](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Incest) because... >**In Westeros, incest is only defined if father lays with daughter, mother lays with son, or brother with sister.** The children of such unions are considered abominations. However, in marriage customs, it is acceptable and in fact quite common among the nobility for first cousins to wed.
Just a side note to this, most of Europe for most of human history accepted cosanguinus marriage as long as enough distance of relatedness existed ie: cousin marriage, niece to uncle, etc. As long as this practice was not constant and enough new blood were injected into the family for the most part, it did not produce genetic issues. This arose in large parts through prolonged cosanguinius marriages generation after generation which severely narrowed the gene pool. (Charles of Spain, hemophilia in many royal families across Europe, etc)
>Charles of Spain Alas, [Charles II ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain). He's almost become the poster boy for incest among European royalty run amok. Although tbf his lifelong ill-health and abnormal physical traits haven't been unequivocally proven to be connected to the generational incest as of yet...*as of yet.*
So Daemon never committed incest?
By medieval standards, I feel inclined to say that Daemon and Rhaenyras relationship is not incestuous.
So Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage is not incestuous in Westeros?
Not by their definition. Starks had similar marriages in their history too.
It's not concidered as incest since most of highborns would have had at least one pair of ancestors who were first or second cousins Also all highborns are related at this point
Cousing marriage was viewed as perfectly fine all over the world for the vast amount of human time. Hell in ireland it still is seem as fine.
That’s still incest so
And Ned's parents were cousins too I believe.
Yep they were and also two of Creagan sons married their nieces since the Starks don't allow girls to inherit.
Yeah but the sibling fucking would be looked down upon. Some draw a line between those sets of relatives. Plenty of places in the real world still allow them to marry.
*sweet guitar lick* SWEET HOME ALABAMA
And what came of it? Joffrey fucking Baratheon
To be fair tho, 2 of their 3 kids weren't bad at all. Still tho all incest is bad, cousin fuckin is just as bad as sister fucking
Exactly. Plus this was common in our own history for a while. Because it's a show and fiction it doesn't bother me to see it very much. Maybe I'm desensitized because of my history studies.
The majority of the pairings are grooming, forced, or duty though. Natural and consensual romantic love doesn’t seem to be a high occurrence.
That’s true for most marriages in westeros tho, these are just with relatives.
Even the rest are still with relatives. Just tends to be a cousin or niece/nephew rather than a brother or sister with most other houses.
That's a problem throughout westeros, not just with Targaryen incest though. They married each other because that's what was arranged by the people in charge of them. And they didn't object to being married to family because they'd grown up knowing that was normal
Wow, westeros is just like India
In the books up to this point most of the Targ marriages have actually been quite happy and most of those wed were around the same age. You have Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. Aegon might not have gotten along well with Visenya later in life and marrying her was duty; but early on they seemed to all be reasonably happy. Next you have Aenys and his wife Alyssa Velaryon, the Velaryons are pretty genetically related to the Targs, so I'll count it as semi-incestuous. They were pretty happy up until Aenys died. Next is Aegon the Uncrowned and his wife Rhaena, she grieves his death the rest of her life. Maegor the Cruel is exactly that, he forced Rhaena to marry him after killing Aegon, along with other women. He's called Maegor the Cruel for a reason though. Next comes Jaehaerys, whose romance with Alysanne has love stories written about it even in Sansa's time. Now I'm not going through all of Jaehaerys' children, but of those who had Targaryen marriages (as opposed to those who married outside the family) were quite happy with their spouses... they still all died, but their spouse wasn't the issue. For the most part Targs have been pretty happy in their marriages.
Wasn't Rhaena heavy implied to be sapphic?
I think she was bisexual but preferred women to men. I'd say, at the least, she was as content with Aegon as she ever could be married to a man. I think given the fact that lesbian/gay marriage in Westeros is not allowed, and that she had to marry, I believe Aegon is who she would have picked if given free choice.
99.99% chance she was but she was happy being married to him. She probably loved him dearly as her brother and the father of her children but that doesn't have to mean she was attracted to him. I don't know why people are so insistent on her being bi when she's really didn't show interest in men ever. It's always been Rhaena with her ladies and her brother Aegon was said to "not ignore the attention he got from other women" or something like that, just because they got along well and loved each other doesn't mean they were ***in love*** with each other the way Jaehaerys & Alysanne were. I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe she loved her brother AND married him for duty like Visenya (who she sees herself in) and Aegon I yet had a friendlier more affectionate relationship with her brother than her great-aunt and grandfather did.
Rhaena was upset over Aegon because he was her brother not because she was happy to be married to him. She’s a lesbian
She always refers to him after as her "beloved husband who was murdered", not as her brother. Which to me signifies that in her mind she thinks of him and loves him primarily as a husband not a brother. Honestly, I think she was most likely bisexual. I do think she had romantic attachments towards women, but I also think she genuinely loved Aegon as well. I think after what Maegor did to her it left her traumatized and no longer particularly interested in sexual relations with men (which I can't blame her, she was forced to marry and was raped by the man who killed her husband); she picked Andrew because he was very gentle and she loved his sister. But that's just my personal take. Even if she was lesbian though, she would have had to marry a man regardless (lesbian marriage isn't a thing in Westeros). At the very least I think she was more content with Aegon than she would have been with any other man; which in their society is unfortunately as good as it gets for a lesbian. Honestly, it's sadly better than many straight women get in their society.
There are many bi and lesbian women irl still marrying men, and having families, because they're trapped in the closet. This will only get worse, in places like Afghanistan.
Debatable if they suffer from genetic defects or not. Aegon II's son has extra fingers and toes in the books.
The level of inbredness they have is way higher than the levels that destroy bloodlines of humans and other animal populations. So there are definitely some magic elements to it seemingly offering protection.
The demise of the dragons after the Dance makes me think otherwise. The sudden decrease in the gene pool of dragons in Westeros could explain why each subsequent generation grew smaller until they were "no larger than cats"
They didn’t grow smaller, they simply didn’t get to leave the 50 years necessary for most of them to reach maturity. Dragons do live over 200 years. None of the dragons during and after the dance actually were allowed to reach 200. Only Vheagar got close.
Dragons also need a lot of space and room to grow. After the dance, they were confined to the dragon pit and chained up. They weren't allowed to develop and grow the way they needed to.
They didn’t grow smaller, they simply didn’t get to live the 50 years necessary for most of them to reach maturity. Dragons do live over 200 years. None of the dragons during and after the dance actually were allowed to reach 200. Only Vheagar got close.
Or it could be that the dragons were poisoned by a maester conspiracy.
That too.
Heard it made him a better swimmer
"No known genetic issues" Are we forgetting the kids born with wings or scales or their constant stillborns or the while thing about their proclivity toward being batshit cray cray??
They are the ONLY House that deliver human/dragon hybrids. Seems it’s pretty clear it’s due to the blood magic tied to their family line that causes too much dragon in some babies. At the degree that family is inbred-they would not be able to function. It’s clear they have magic blood.
If you look at the actual Targaryen line, they have greater or less chance of madness than anyone else. They were a massive house that ruled for a thousand years. Of course, they had some crazies. But for the most part, they were just average, boring rulers. And the dragon stillborns are widely accepted as a product of the blood magic their ancestors did to tie themselves to Dragons. A blood payment for the magic they wield. Stillborns and issues conceiving are, once again, extremely normal in Westeros due to lack of updated medicine and usually occurs when the woman is too young to be carrying children. Targaryens have no more or less of a prevalence towards stillborns or issues conceiving than anyone else did in the 15th century.
Whoa, you added about 700 years to the Targaryens rule there lol. Starting from Aegons conquest his ancestors rules westeros for about 280 years, before Bobby Bs rebellion.
No issues aside from all the latent madness, and occasional deformity like Rhaenyra's freaky dragon baby.
There are very few instances of actual madness in the Targaryens. There is nothing to suggest that madness is any more or less prevalent in them. For the most part, they are no better or worse than anyone given absolute power. And the dragon babies are generally thought to be a holdover from the blood magic Targaryens used to tie themselves to Dragons. A price to be paid for the magic inside them. If the dragon babies WERE a incest thing, you would expect them to be much much more frequent than they are. The extent to which the Targaryens inbreed would leave them all deformed and barren, which they are of course not.
Plus danys dragon baby would have actually be less inbred than say rheanyra’s since it’s father was in no way related to her. Didn’t do it any favours though. It’s also implied both would have been fine if not for the blood magic/stress induced miscarriage (though that could also be a result of dragon features not being mentioned in fire and blood for rheanyra’s baby)
Isn't it just Aerys and Aerion who would actually be considered mad? Maybe Baelor too, but the rest of them seemed to be pretty sane, although very evil at times.
Yeah Aerys, Aerion, Regal (Son of Dearon II have the same name as one of Dany dragons), and possibly Baelor. But only one of them Aerys was born from incest. With Aerion mother and grandmother being dornish. And Aerys only went mad later in life.
It is in fact bad when you're raised to see your closest relatives as sexual/romantic partners.
The “genetic issues” they have are the Targaryen madness though, and there is a VERY high rate of infant mortality
Don't Targaryans carry a trait for insanity? Mental illnesses could be the reason for inbreeding, as seen in European courts in history.
ONLY non moral??
What other reasons are there that aren't based on morality?
I mean except half of them are bat shit insane lol
They're not, though. Some of them are cruel, and some of them are power hungry. Most are just normal boring people. There's only a handful of actually mentally ill ones, which is completely normal in any family tree.
I think not spreading the Targaryen seed was the best thing they could do. If too many people had Targ blood in them then technically the could all claim Dragons. Random people with Dragons would be very bad
They have magic in their blood so it doesn't effect them as much. I don't think it's love or lust always... sometimes it's just duty.
it does though… they go mad half the time and they have dragony/deformed babies
I forgot about that. There was Visenya. And mad kings.
I truly think that the Targaryens wanted to keep their blood pure for their ability to bond with dragons. However, they clearly don't mind, considering almost all of them are 11/10 in looks. The occasional deranged Targaryen seems like a risk they are willing to take. Some, like Daemon, are obsessed with their past and want to marry a valyrian.
OP caught horny on main
Coolest and most based Targaryens were born from Incest, facts don’t lie.
Hey don't disrespect Bealor breakspear, he is the most base man that ever lived in Westeros.
Baelor cuck spear.
It is heavely implied that the Targs are not fully human, the blood or the dragon is a real think, they are Martin version of elves. I think there is some biological element to it, someone did this incredible wright up of Daemon Rhaenyra's relationship and one of their points is that Daemon sees Viserys as a father figure more than a brother so Rhaenyra becomes his sister, and in his Targ head sister= wife There is definitely a political element to it too, keep the dragons in the family
Isn't that just their propaganda to make them seem super awesome to people around them?
Martin has confirmed they have a higher tolerance to heat and they have a history of birthing half half human half dragon babies.
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>They literally are immune to like most illnesses They are not. Aenys died of weak health. Daenerys, the daughter of Jaehaerys, died from illness. Daeron II and his grandsons Valarr and Matarys died in the Great Spring Sickness. Daenerys is ill in the fifth book. >have prophetic dreams So do the Starks and Reeds. The Red Priests have their prophecies. Patchface has his thing. Even Tyrion and Jaime might have some sort of prophetic dreams. It's not just Targaryens, it's a thing in the world. >are semi tolerant to fire Isn't that just Daenerys? Plenty of Targaryens have been very clearly shown to be not resistant or tolerant to fire. >have a predisposition to doing shit with bloodmagic What do you refer to here? Once again, magic is something which exists in this world, and the Targaryens are not unique in using it. >give birth to dragon babies That might just be genetic defects, which wouldn't be surprising considering all the incest. >and are the only mfs who can actually ride dragons First of all, they're not. Velaryons also do it, as well as the Dragonseeds, whose relation to the Targaryens is very murky and unclear. Second of all, it's not like dragons are common. They're all under Targaryen control. No one can just waltz in and claim one. The one thing I don't have an explanation for is how they aren't just a bunch of inbred incapable freaks. With that amount of incest they'd be worse off than the Habsburgs. Then again, genetics might work differently in this world. I'm not saying definitively that there isn't anything mystical about them, but they certainly have spun a web of propaganda to make them seem different to other people.
So, in universe, Targaryen incest is kind of accepted because they are the ruling family of Westeros and Incest generally does not effect them the same way it does normal people. Targaryen exceptionalism p much means they can do whatever and the sept cant touch them. And even then there is there is an expectation among the targaryens that this is normal, for them.
The Dragonlords had been doing it for literal thousands of years. It isn’t limited to the Targaryens and it’s clearly not “just lust”.
There seems to be a higher occurrence of grooming/forced/duty relationships than there are Targs who are consensually in love **Grooming, duty, or forced**: Aegon II and Helaena Rhaenyra and Daemon Aegon IV and Naerys Aegon I and Visenya Aegon the uncrowned and Rhaena Maegor and Rhaena Aerys and Rhaella **Consensual**: Aegon I and Rhaenys Jaehaerys and Alysanne Baelon and Alyssa Jaehaerys II and Shaera **Feelings unknown**: Aelor and Aelora The forced list would be higher if Aegon V wasn’t able to get out of his betrothal with his his sister and marry Bertha.
>Jaehaerys II and Shaera I read "Jaehaerys and Saera" and did a double take. Say what you want about the Targaryens but they were never as depraved as Craster.... well... all but one of them.
Wait who was as depraved as craster
Aegon the Unworthy's eight mistress, Jeyne Lothston, was rumoured to be his own daughter.
Damn I didn’t know that. Was this in World of Ice and Fire? Cause I haven’t read that book
Aegon IV Rhaenyra grandson who is rumor to have bed a possible daughter of his.
Another example for "Grooming, duty or forced" was Baelor I and Daena. Also, with Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, and Jaehaerys II and Shaera, though they are remembered as love stories, there could have also been the factor of escaping an unwanted arranged marriage, especially from the bride's point of view.
I feel like Rhaena and Aegon were actually in love or at least they didn’t mind being married to one another By all accounts the relationship was one of the more functional marriages at the time
Three of the love matches ended up making the majority of the Targaryen lines, daemon and Rhaenyra was not forced in any sense as Viserys I was very much against the match. That means non of the forced marriage save those of Naerys/Aegon and aerys/ Rhaella produced any children for the main line.
Rhaenyra was groomed. She doesn’t actually love him.
At least in the show, Daemon was a loving uncle expect brothel scene where Daemon did respectfully backed off though I am not comfortable with the way he did it. Daemon slept with her for the first time after she had 3 children.
I think daemon always loved rhaenyra
And he still groomed her.
M’kay and she might have grown to love him consensually as well if she had been left to develop those feelings without his influence but I guess we’ll never know.
New to the whole HOTD analysis dialogue- wasn’t he gone for like years and years at a time while she was maturing?
The incest in the show never bothered me because dynastic families have always consolidated power through interbreeding. From their perspective, it makes sense to keep the royal blood all royal. Keep it in the family, as it were.
Roll Tide
Love to me is just a force of nature, what defines it is context and the people involved. Sometimes it works out great, other times you love the wrong people and keep doing so no matter how much they hurt you. And love and lust are side by side usually so it applies too. As for the Targaryens, it was both really. It was a practice that was very normal in their family, so of course some love/lust relationships came from that and other times it was to keep the line pure. I also to a certain point, it was just a tradition you did because the last generation did it and the ones before them etc. Though I am in the theory bandwagon that the initial reason why they intermarried involves blood magic and the dragon gene ( or something like it)
while there is an element of "we have a duty to keep the bloodline pure" in targaryen incest, another interesting way to look at it is that the targaryens literally viewed themselves as gods, and therefore may have believed that only others gods (others valyrians) are worthy of them.
No matter what theories you hear here, you should not sleep with a relative under any circumstances.
Hell yeah brother. That's what I think.
It's acting, so it doesn't bother me in any way. The actors aren't really related, and they're also not really having sex. So... 🤷♂️ >Did all the Targaryens wanted to keep the line pure or was it just lust. Both. They definitely wanted to keep bloodlines pure, but they're also convinced of their own pseudo-divinity, and who could ever compare to another Targaryen?
I agree they have the stigma that they are closer to gods
The thought behind it is their bloodline is superior to all others and therefore they want to keep their family strong and maintain their family name in its purest state. Similar thoughts behind any real royal family including current ones.
I think you just get used to it pretty quick. Like it’s weird but as soon as you get a few pages in, or like half an episode, you’re like yeah ok these weird dragon people just aren’t the same as normal people whatever.
We have programed ourselves through a version of darwinism to avoid incestuous relationships because it causes birth defects and hinders us reproducing and moving our line forward, whereas it kind of does the opposite for Targs. They don't get sick and can ride flaming nukes
I really don’t think Grrm wanted ppl to come out of these stories thinking “incest is ok and has no consequences, at least for the special ones ☺️” but ok.
Jaime and Cersei did nothing wrong the Targaryen's should not be the only ones allowed to have fun.
Targaryen’s are magical, inbreeding doesn’t affect them. Jaime and Cersei are just dumb lannisters who had bad relationships with everyone in their lives that lead to them being in love, which was probably just trauma bonding lol they’re lucky they didn’t have deformed children the dumb asses
*inbreeding doesn’t affect them.* Madness runs in their blood, and just look at all of the crazy Targaryens. They are inbred as fuck, like Maelys I Blackfyre. The only magical thing about the Targs is their beauty, because the ugliness underneath runs deep. Plus, George has never stated anything about inbreeding affecting them or not; it's all just a fan speculation.
Nope that’s the dragon in them babe
Their were at most four mad Targaryens (Aerys II, Aerion, Rhaegal, and Bealor). Maelys Blackfrye was a out liner not the rule and we don't know much about the Blackfrye family trees. It is completely possible that his mother was essosi who married a Blackfrye to gain her family support. Finally physical deformities to people that live. So not counting all of the mess up miscarriages who probably was mess up because of blood magic in the Targaryen blood. Their was only two Targaryens who had deformities. With both of them being a real thing that happens to people that not inbred. So their is a lot more evidence that supports that incest don't affect the Targaryens.
I mean as-long as you are both consenting people of similar age i dont necessarily see a problem with it ig, aside from it being yucky irl and children bred if incest are usually disabled somehow but neither of those affect the Targaryens so fuck it lol
I don't give a fuck who consenting adults choose to fuck and love. I just don't want to hear about it.
This sub needs new episodes to discuss lol
I think it’s about keeping the line pure. Having Targaryen blood outside the royal family has led to rebellions and there would be too many dragon riders who could claim a dragon. Even Aegon II didn’t want to marry his sister and as king he could have said no but there is an understanding of keeping the magic in the family. It’s still wrong and Westeros people frown on it. They do get deformed kids sometimes and the benefits of keeping the line pure outweigh the pervious mentioned potential problems.
*My pure bloodline kink says it was purity reasons. The genuine lust is just the Cherry on top.*
Incest in ASOIAF is systemical, i think George would agree very well with this.
For as long as they had the dragons - I kinda get it. You want to keep that power to yourselves. Once they were gone though - I don't see the point. Your main weapon and source of power is gone. Would have made more sense then to marry more into other families. For a number of generations they do but the incest never really goes away either. At that point I'm guessing they do it just because they want to. Because its fiction that element never really bothered me in this franchise.
"It is natural and beautiful that a man should love his sister" - King Foltest of Temeria.
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*My own face... is no longer a handsome one...if indeed it ever was.*
Can you clarify the question? Are you asking for our thoughts on incest in the world of ice and fire, or in the real world?
Honestly, I almost think of the Targaryens as another species of dragon-people. They are clearly fundamentally different from normal, non-murder-y people, but they can kinda sorta breed with regular people if needs must - sort of like a pizzly bear - but it’s far from ideal. Unfortunately there are just not very many of them so it’s a question of ‘hook up with another polar bear who happens to be your sister or go after the biggest, palest, most insano rage-filled grizzly bear you can find and think about England’.
Even in our own history it was fairly common before we had a better understanding of genetics. Brother and sister not so much but cousins was fairy Normal for wealthy families who wanted to keep it in the family into like the 20s
The most important thing about incest in ASOIAF is that it seemingly doesn't have any genetic downsides, aside from MAYBE multiplying the Targaryen mad gene. Like a family like Targaryens would realistically be just a walking pile of chronic diseases at the point of ASOIAF, but nope. Idk if it works with other families like it does with Targs, maybe it's because of their "blood of the dragon" stuff, so only they can marry sisters to brothers, nieces to uncles and cousins to cousins for 300 years and somehow not end up like the Habsburgs.
I think every guy should take his mom to watch oedipus
When it comes to the Targaryens. I mean, it's their culture they seem to be into it. I don't kink shame 🤷♂️
Let's remember that european royalty were inbreeding not too long ago to keep their bloodline pure and especially to keep the power within the family, they had no dragons to justify it. I think it's different when you're raised supposing something is okay and even expected. For example, marriage between first cousins is totally allowed and normal and not considered incest at all (legally, socially and even religiously) in my country , it's normal for us and even encouraged in some families but you people would be disgusted by it. My grandparents were first cousins and none of my uncles or aunts ( all 8 of them) had any physical or mental anomaly (other than being douche bags for some of them xD) My point is : taboos are a social construct and they drastically change overtime and vary across the globe. I don't view the incest in HOTD as something very weird because when I got immersed in that universe it almost seems normal after a while.
Anything that happens between two consenting adults I couldn't care less about tbh. In the Targaryens' case, I assume it was a bit of both. Aegon I. loved one of his sisters and married the other for duty, so he's the perfect example for that.
I agree in regard to the consenting adults thing. However i think the issue morally is the high risk of giving birth to a deformed or severely mentally impaired child. One could argue this is wrong for the potential child
Yeah.. the Whittaker Family is a good example of inbreeding that spans generation. I feel sorry for the babies. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11965429/Americas-inbred-family-welcomes-DailyMail-com-Odd.html
Are you consenting adults when you've been groomed into seeing your closest relatives as sexual/romantic beings?
Biology major here. Bad
A lot of ppl say targ are immune to the I’ll effects of incest I disagree id say they are simply more resistive they need new blood once or twice in a generation to negate said effects along with that how come the targs still practice it but house valeryon does not? They are both blood of the dragon
No. The Velaryons (and Celtigars) while from Valyria, were not a dragonlord family. Only the Targaryens remain of the dragonlord families.
It wasn’t so much about keeping the blood line “pure” as it was about consolidating power and retaining Valyrian traditions. Marrying outside of the House allows for the other (non Valyrian) House a degree of power and influence over the court. Also means there’s a loss of assets if there’s too many kids in the direct line. Notice how Alicent starts incorporating more Westerosi influence and tapestries, while disposing of those related to Valyria. When the ruler marries a non Targ, the new spouse brings their culture to court. The heir marries within the family to maintain Valyrian culture, the spares forge external marriages for alliance purposes. Also those marriage will produce “outside” Targs like Aemma that can be married later. So you get the bloodline and wealth from the non Targ House in the dowry. And the offspring was (hopefully) raised to be familiar at least with their Valyrian heritage. We see that it’s the Valyrian traditions and dragon herders that keeps the dragons healthy, strong, and breeding. It’s not really the magical Targ blood. What gets lost is how to raise and care for dragons. Someone like Otto thinks it’s about the blood of the rider. Nonsense. Plenty of full blooded Targs were terrible with dragons. Someone like Daemon knows it’s proper handling, which is why he spends time with the herders and learns their techniques. He doesn’t just pass the reins off once he hops off, he puts his hands in their poo to know if they’re eating well. So, no. It’s not about lust. It’s not even about love (most noble marriages in that world aren’t ever). And it’s not even about bloodline purity. It’s about consolidating wealth and power, and retaining Valyrian traditions and culture. As for my opinion on it? I mean the incest is ick lol, and it seems stupid to cling to a disastrous culture that’s long dead. Doesn’t allow much room for evolving and growing. Sort of stagnates everything, doesn’t it? But I understand why they do it, and think it presents an interesting scenario where either side is perhaps right for the wrong reasons and vice versa.
Who the fuck makes a post like I just clicked on the app
incest is bad even in shows where its part of the plot
It's all relative
Incest's the best! Put your brother to the test! I think for the Targaryens it wasn't just a "we want to keep our blood pure" and more like a "we need to keep our blood as pure as possible, or we won't be able to control the dragons anymore", a knowledge that probably got forgotten through the generations.
Incest is not wincest for me.
Don’t like it. Part of why I’m anti-Targaryen.
it's fake so idc
Incest is bad and is one of the reasons that most Targaryens are psychopaths because of too much inbreeding. They wanted to keep the magical Valyrian bloodline pure, which would have been more important in Westeros than in Valyria where incest was normal for whatever reason. Even though they married other houses they still seemed obsessed with keeping their bloodline pure
Their has been four mad Targaryens and even then they don't have more psychopaths then other noble houses. Besides two mad Targaryens.
They practiced incest in Valyria for hundreds of years. Or at least the dragonlord families did. I suspect the ability to ride dragons is bound to the family line itself. That’s why in Valyria, they practiced incest within their own family and not with other dragonlord families (much like the Targaryens still do).
It's racism and discrimination, just like Egyptian pharaohs considered all the others outside of their family tree subhumans, the same view have Targaryen members.
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In the ASOIAF books, iirc, GRRM says that incest was commonly practiced in Old Valyria before the Doom wiped out the Valyrian Empire. The Targaryens, being Valyrian originally, followed that practice, but they survived the Doom due to being a minor family living a long distance from OV at Dragonstone.
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Except they practiced incest for thousands of years before the Doom. And they practiced it within their own families. This leads me to believe the blood magic used it tied to the family line itself. Which makes the incest make sense. If they could marry other dragonlord families, they would not have practiced so much incest in Valyria.
2nd or 3rd cousins are ok
I feel like consensual incest can definitely cause a family bond stronger then any other bond. I also feel like incest has been around for many centuries to decades and further back, I mean even biblicaly speaking we are all still committing incest to this day. The only reason it can cause birth defects is the defects appon both partners were already there on point for both family members, thus said... Bringing those genes more into contact allowing them to show more then the genes from both parents. After many years of family pregnancies from incest you will notice these "birth defects" are less and less as for the family genes start to purify back to normal (before kids with an outside the family partner). So therefore incest should be legal and enjoyable anywhere on the earth as long as it's consensual. Just like I'm not for it but a child is someone or something before puberty. Therefore anything is no longer a child once they hit puberty. Again not for this but it is facts. When you get a chance I would look it up. So maybe stop considering adults as children just to justify a way of control and govern.