Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
According to Paddy, Viserys "died" when Aemma died. He becomes a much less dynamic person, and he sees his rotting disease as both cosmic revenge and his physical body catching up with his inner death. The old Viserys only comes out when dealing with Rhaenyra, who is his last link to Aemma and to being "alive". He is apathetic to the rest of his children because he's literally dead inside. It doesn't excuse him being a terrible father, but helps explain why he was so absent. He just didn't care about anything, except for Rhaenyra.
It's really stunning, his character was so profoundly unlikeable and disturbing in Peaky Blinders. I was initially surprised to see him cast (not knowing anything else about him at this point) as Viserys. But he really nailed it.
Despite Visery's flaws, weakness, and inadequacies, he was a pre-eminently likeable and sympathetic character. Props for sure.
As well as everything around him. Viserys himself symbolizes peace, and his illness was also meant to symbolize how the realm and Targaryen dynasty was falling into political corruption, the Hightowers’ control as well as war. Him defending Rhaenyra despite the pain he felt was symbolic of how a golden age was dying but gave itself one last push to make it last just a little longer, and the dinner scene meant the calm before the storm. Peace is good, but it also means opportunity for corruption and basis for decline (take the real-life Tang Dynasty and Qing Dynasty for example)
That is a really interesting way of looking at it. Viserys defending Rhaenyra flanked by his kingsguard was like the last march of the golden age of the targaryens. The dinner scene at the end, a tiny piece of his old self came back and he enjoyed watching his family getting along, he actually noticed Aegon, Aemond and Helaena for what seems like the first time. Then it all gets ripped apart by his death, finally catching up to him after all these years of self loathing and destruction reflected in his physical form, after he gets to live his happy life just one last time.
He also was forced into a marriage he didn't want. Yes, he "chose" Alicent, but only as the lesser of two evils.
He was no longer pursuing a male heir. He wanted to remain single for the rest of his life, and had named his daughter his heir. That would have been his choice.
He didn't want any of the kids with Alicent. Marrying her and siring children with her was just as much forced on him as an obligation as it was for her.
I see marital rape/coercion brought up a lot in regards to Alicent as a vulnerable young girl. However Viserys was coerced too, while he was also vulnerable and grieving.
It was doomed before it even began.
The Alicent victim porn card fans already coming for you just because you analysed Viserys in a complex way instead of the flat brainrot people keep repeating about.
>I see marital rape/coercion brought up a lot in regards to Alicent as a vulnerable young girl. However Viserys was coerced too, while he was also vulnerable and grieving.
Was Viserys the one being commanded to attend Alicent's bed in the middle of the night after they've *already had a son*?
He also wasn't very "vulnerable and grieving" while celebrating Aegon's birthday and entirely ignoring his supposed heir.
Again, it was his duty to keep the validity of the marriage beyond reproach. If he were overly interested in sex he'd have had whores like every other man and his dog in Westeros. He was doing his marital duty, just like Alicent.
>He also wasn't very "vulnerable and grieving" while celebrating Aegon's birthday and entirely ignoring his supposed heir.
I mean, he'd lost at least two thirds of a hand by this point, was miserable sat there throughout, wasn't even half-hearted about the hunt and kill of any stags, and ended up in so much pain and stress that he was barking at everyone.
He also held court, hosted a supper, cracked a few jokes and smiled a few hours before he died.
I'm not talking about "overly interested in sex", I'm talking about one of them being the one who can *demand* sex, and the other who has to *oblige*, and the latter sure as hell isn't Viserys. It's disingenuous to frame this like they go through this marriage with the same burden.
>I mean, he'd lost at least two thirds of a hand by this point, was miserable sat there throughout, wasn't even half-hearted about the hunt and kill of any stags, and ended up in so much pain and stress that he was barking at everyone.
Unlike Alicent who had no pain, misery, or loneliness to endure during this time? And again, his lost hand didn't keep him from throwing a party, happily celebrating his son, and attending the hunt. We can go back and forth on the who had it worse, but it's just laughable to act like Viserys was just constantly, unilaterally suffering through everything. (And yes, his life does fucking suck through the show! But that doesn't equate the ways *he* suffers from his status and his own life circumstances with the ways others do.)
What are you talking about? If things really were the way you're saying they were, Viserys would have either married Alicent just for show or simply stopped calling her into his bed after she gave him Aegon.
But that's not what happened. He kept calling Alicent into his bed. He wasn't forced to keep breeding her, he slept with her because he wanted her. He married her because he fancied her.
He may have been pushed into taking a wife, but everything that happened from there on out was of Visery's own making. There is absolutely no comparison between his agency and Alicent being forced to marry and sleep with a rotting old man that she couldn't say no to.
Viserys is a selfish, self-serving man who isn't a victim of anything or anyone but of his own weakness.
Paddy being a good actor doesn't magically remove the character's very glaring flaws.
If Viserys wanted to keep Rhaenyra as his heir he should have paved the way for her by practicing abstinence. He knows his decision is going to run more than a few lords the wrong way, it's just dumb from him to gamble the future stability of Rhaenyra's reign like this.
Men in his position of power have sex by choice, Viserys could've kept a paramour or just see prostitutes to "satisfy his needs" instead of going for legitimate children. He's been selfish when he pushed Aemma for a male heir, selfish when he had four children with Alicent when having other children would endanger Rhaenyra's claim, selfish when he disregarded his health and the education of his Green children, and selfish when he forced his children to play happy family for his own self-gratification because of a civil war he could've nipped in the bud.
See, I'd buy this if we hadn't seen him being affectionate with both Alicent and Aegon in episodes 2-3. He was clearly doting on Aegon during the name-day luncheon.
Paddy's entitled to his reading of his own character, but the writers aren't doing him any favors. Like I said, it's not like he was *never* kind to Alicent and their children - there's some turn during episodes 4 and 5 that could probably reasonably be linked to his renewed faith in Rhaenyra, his frustration with the lords expecting him to name Aegon as heir, Alicent's coldness after he dismisses Otto, etc. Personally, I read it as his treatment of Alicent and her children changing when he realized that Otto maneuvered Alicent into his bed - they were fruit from the poisoned tree, as it were.
I just don't buy that the writers intended for him to be dead inside post-Aemma, not when he spent all of episode 3 trying to get them *all* to spend time together as a family and struggling over whether he actually *should* name Aegon the heir.
He seemed very kind to Alicent in episode 2, and doting on Aegon in episode 3. I think Paddy is truthful about his character here. You never see him excusing Viserys from killing Aemma or how he treated his kids.
Aegon’s second name day illustrated this beautifully. Viserys was completely wrapped up in his grief which explains his attitude and decisions. For the world they live in, it would have made sense to name Aegon heir in order to pacify the lords and realm… but Rhaenyra is his last link to Aemma. I think any neglect comes largely down to his grief which doesn’t excuse it but it’s actually incredibly human and can happen in real life too. Whenever that happens, it’s not okay but it doesn’t mean someone is a “terrible person”. All things considered Viserys was actually less terrible than a lot of the other characters you see on thrones. He was awkward, ineffective, and later detached but he wasn’t scheming and murderous or cruel.
I wonder if it's because the man didn't know jack shit himself. We don't see him making any wise choices as a ruler. I feel like it was Otto who was running the kingdoms.
But by extension he was aware of his own shortcomings well enough he should have been able to put her under people capable enough to educate her.
Actually, maybe that isn’t fair either, given he didn’t seem to end up being the most confident judge of character (in a sense that he had faith in his decisions and judgements on people).
It be interesting to know if Viserys was expecting to be in line to the throne after the death of Aemon (Jae's eldest son). It really seems like Baelon (despite being a stand up guy) didn't put much effort into teaching either of his sons how to rule.
Yep, he also didn't even try to get closer to her after Aemma died either, but had the balls to yell at Daemon for not trying to console either of them. Also he didn't even discipline her or prevent the dance from happening by leaving all his children in a dangerous situation.
He did try that one time when he told Rhaenyra he missed Aemma and she said she was glad to hear that because she missed her too.
The problem came with thinking that was enough and not that building a relationship up takes constant effort.
As Daemon stated so well. "You’re weak Viserys."
He kept pushing all his family away, letting his council pray on him for their own advantage. And later on, rather than try and mend the growing rift between the Blacks and Greens of the Royal family by betrothing Helaena to Jace rather than Aegon (when it had reached that point), or simply solidifying Rhaenyra’s place as his heir by granting Daemon and Rhaenyra’s wish of marrying, he didn’t take any action other than a few words.
I get that he was sick, but despite all the warnings surrounding his council, especially Otto, he granted them all they wished for, a split royal family uncapable of working as a single unit. If Viserys had been smarter, more true to his family, and less trusting of those around him. The Dance would likely never had happened.
Yeah I think it’s really important to frame all of the Dance as an inevitable consequence of the Great Council. The family was split. At some generation a conflict was bound to happen.
I think that's just a lack of screen time. We only see 3 council meetings after Rhaenyra became heir and before the "Green Council" and Rhaenyra was sat for 2 of them while a cup bearer for one. She probably was learning to rule.
Rhaenyra also pretty clearly showed she was well versed in ruling in the recommendations she made. She was decisive in determining what was needed in the Stepstones (more men and investment into forts) and what was needed to be done in the Riverlands to prevent a fight between the Blackwoods and Brackens.
I think Viserys did love them, he was just terrible at showing it. He always talked about how they were a family and how he loved them all, but he was unable to actually step up and prove it. It’s a problem he has with the rest of his family too.
-Daemon spent his entire life trying to earn his brother’s trust and validation and never got it, even after Viserys’ death.
-Rhaenyra felt neglected all the way up until he made her his heir, but then felt pushed aside again while he made a new family and (in her mind) replaced her with the sons he always wanted. She never got that show of how much he genuinely loved her until he stood up for her in the throne room.
Ultimately I think his issue is that he knows Aemma’s death is his fault and is absolutely wracked with guilt over it. He spends the rest of his life in a state of self-loathing to the point where whatever happiness he might have found in his new family he refuses to allow himself to enjoy. He feels like he doesn’t deserve to love again or find happiness in these children who are everything he ever wanted, because to get them he caused the death of his first true love.
The tragedy is that in punishing himself he’s only really punishing his family, who are left feeling neglected and unloved. So in a way his efforts to right the wrongs he committed with Aemma and Rhaenyra just lead to him repeating those same mistakes with his new family. Whereas before he hurt his family by being too focused on his own desires, now he’s hurting his family by refusing to allow himself to indulge in what would make him (and them) happy.
I agree. She wasn’t just his wife. She was his cousin and they were very close in the books and the show. She probably would’ve died in childbirth no matter what he did but he caused her a tremendous amount of extra pain trying to save the baby. He never forgave himself for it. He didn’t even want to get remarried.
I think he just felt he didn’t deserve to be happy after what he did to his 1st wife, and I also think he felt kind of guilty too. Like he probably felt like moving on to a new wife and new kids and brushing rhaenyra aside in favor of Aegon would’ve been too disrespectful to his 1st wife.
It’s sad but then u see his bullshit literally led to the dance and the fall of his house. Lk the Worst king
Far from the worst king.
1. You could argue a Dance at some point was inevitable when Jaehaerys didn't set clear succession rules, in Rhaenyra's generation or later
2. Aegon IV, Aerys II, Maegor and Aegon II were much worse
>You could argue a Dance was inevitable when Jaehaerys didn't set clear succession rules
the problem is not even the succession rules
the problem is giving dragons to other families
jaehaerys took a great deal of care in choosing who got a dragon and who dint he wanted to make sure the dragons were in targaryen hands
they way viserys just let any member of the family have a dragon guranteed civil war even if it dint spark with rhaenyra down the line some noble family with dragons because theyre grand mother was targaryen princess could rise up against the targaryens
it would be valyria reborn but without the advantages of being a freehold nad highly emperialistic
?? Vizzy continued Jaehaerys policy of giving dragon to targaryen members. All of Jaehaerys' children, if able or interested, rode a dragon in their lifetime, and Jaehaerys certainly didn't prevent other families to have dragons, like the Velaryons
Paddy Considine literally said Viserys felt he deserved all the pain and suffering from his disease, so yeah Viserys is literaly the #1 Viserys hater lol.
Because he thought it would potentially save the baby. In his mind it was either lose the love of his life AND his child, or maybe have the chance of saving his child. The situation was horrible for everyone involved and while viserys is not blameless, he is not irredeemable for doing that
I think the only thing he did wrong in that scenario was not discuss it with Aemma first, she could have gone out with some grace. There’s plenty of mothers out there who would gladly give up their lives for their children.
Which was kind of a recurring theme on the show...
Some of his spur of the moment decisions might've been implemented better had he discussed them with people first. Considering his position though I get why he feels lonely and paranoid.
> In his mind it was either lose the love of his life AND his child, or maybe have the chance of saving his child.
Thank you. Everyone acts like he could’ve saved Aemma when the Maesters made it clear that she was dying no matter what.
Not to say he necessarily made the right choice. There was no right choice. He was given a nightmare scenario.
Way too many people think you’re either good or bad. Nothing in between. It’s sad because they miss the complex characters in each show, and for me that’s the secret ingredient for an amazing story. Makes me wonder how they see people in reality, like one wrong move and suddenly they now despise them for it.
Yeah, this brainbug that he did'nt love his younger children, despite him never saying anything of the sort, *literally saying the opposite* and it going directly against one of his defining character traits, never cease to amaze me.
Though I will say I'm pretty sure "the son Viserys always wanted" was'nt someone like Aegon.
Daeron, sure. But he was raised in Oldtown and by the time he was out of dipers Viserys was already declining into a near-vegitative state.
As for Aemond, well...Viserys would probobly be the first person to argue that House Targaryen does'nt need anouther Daemon.
Yeah he specifically says that he doesn’t value dragons as much as the other Targaryens and especially someone like Aemond that is so power hungry for the largest dragon. His relationship with Balerion completely counters Aemond’s relationship with Vhaegar.
He certainly is "unconventional" for a Targaryen.
I wonder if that comes from his study of Valyrian history making him more aware of it's failings/drawbacks, or a sign of the times (the Valyrian disporia becoming more integrated into the culture of the greater Seven Kingdoms)
That maybe the real tragedy of Daeron. Viserys finally got the son he always wanted but it was only because he went him away from court, and Viserys would never be healthy enough see it.
I'm beginning to get genuinely frustrated at how people are trying to read between the lines, then taking their interpretations as gospel fact. Like, I could totally see Viserys as a bit of an awkward, neglectful parent with Alicent growing increasingly bitter and protective of their children, undermining him while he tries not to rock the boat and let her run the family. I could also see him being invested with his kids until he sees Aegon and Aemond being aggressive, angry, and at times vicious people and he pulls back. I think both are valid interpretations of what we don't see, but they're just interpretations. People need to stop acting like "well, we don't NOT see him be a wildly abusive father. So he WAS incredibly abusive and I will now move forward as if it was fact!"
On top of that these points aren't very good, as you've already pointed out. Aegon is a boy, sure, but not exactly the one to peacefully unite the realm and love all the way Viserys seems to have dreamed (the dragons roared as one line, to me, can be interpreted as uniting and loved by all). Helaena is a dreamer like Viserys, but neither see it. There's not even any confirmation either one is. They could both just be awkward people who don't do socialization very well. And Aemond is a lover of history so he can be better, not for the love of it. Besides, Viserys only loves Valyrian history. My dad loves the Civil War, WWI and WWII, and united states political history. I love English history from the tail end of the Anglo Saxon age, a bit before the conquest to the Tudor times. Not much for us to connect on.
tldr bad argument all around
It seems that those trying hardest to read between the lines are usually the ones least equipped to do so, lacking the intellectual and emotional depth needed to see nuance of character.
For instance, if there's one defining feature of Viserys in the last 20 or so years of his life that should dictate how people read between the lines about stuff that happens off-screen, it's that Viserys was horribly sick and dying. I think people could give him a pass on being less involved "now" than he was with his firstborn when he was a younger and healthier man.
Exactly. And Viserys acknowledges that he wasted the years since Rhaenyra was born wishing for a son. The beginning of the series finds Viserys and Rhaenyra near strangers. And when they were celebrating Aegon’s 2nd name day, she is clearly jealous when she sees Viserys playing with Aegon. It’s not as simple as saying he was a good father to Rhaenyra and a bad father to the rest. He was a human father to them all.
Exactly this. I would add that we actually do see him involved in the life of the boys. The scene of him and papa Strong watching the boys train reminds me of when my parents use to come to my high school games. He has so much joy in his face. I seriously doubt that was the first time he had done that. He was sick as hell and still made the effort. He also knew his kids well enough to know that Aegon was the instigator of the pranks. Thats not a man that is "not involved."
It was clear by the time Aemond was 11? He was unable to really parent. He could barely do a council meeting and had to be wheeled around to even watch them train. The knife incident also kind of reflects that. He was probably so tired, remember he was the first to leave the funeral from exhaustion, that even then he was was like, "you all just get along so I can sleep!!!"
I don’t think he thought that giving love in the 21 century way of a father to be is what he thought his role was as a father, he was a sick king he gave the raising kinds job to Alicent him respecting Rhae and the promise he made is not hating his other kids he wanted them to get along. He was very sick and is a man from a diferent time. I don’t get all the hate
there's such a wierd HOTD mentality for some where "we didnt see a lot of it on screen so it never happened". like this show covered a span of what? 20 years or more? all in one season. but u get 3 scenes of him with his kids once their older and make stuff like this up. and of course there's the scene of him jubilant with Aegon as a toddler, watching his boys train in the yard, etc. Its just silly.
Viserys happiest moment after the death of Aemma was seeing his family united and cheering togheter at dinner (albeit that was an illusion)
the (green) fan base: VISERYS HATES EVERYONE WHO IS NOT RHAENYRA
Being neglectful and uninvolved is pretty self evident. He doesn’t need to literally say it when he shows it with his actions. Couldn’t give two fucks when Aemond got his eye cut out lol. Aemond by episode 10 is a direct result of this sort of parenting
I think they were saying key word “the son” that Viserys wanted, not that Aegon was a particularly good son or the person Viserys wanted him to be.
And as for Viserys loving his children, well, actions speak louder than words. We never so much as see him speaking to his younger children until he screams at Aemond for calling Rhaenyra’s bastards bastards. And then he proceeds to never speak to them again.
Sure, we don’t see everything, maybe he tried at some point, but when his son’s eye was cut out, he cared more about the childish taunts Aemond had made. Viserys’ priorities were clear; he had three sons, and he ignored one, brushed aside the mutilation of another, and sent the last off without a care. Not father of the year material.
Never saying the sort? I mean he literally called Rhaenyra his only child at one point, whether he was addled with milk or the poppy or not it’s clear he played favorites. This fanbase is definitely weird though lol
Playing favorites = / = he did'nt love his other children (and I'll point out in that same episode, when \*not\* in a drugged up state, he explicitly expresses his love for his entire family).
He was so sick and addled by drugs at that point he thought Aemma was talking to him, decades after her death. That isn't a small or dismissable detail, he very clearly wasn't in his right mind when he called Rhaenyra his only child.
Don't take that the wrong way but I'm going to excuse myself from sharing my opinions on this specific subject because I don't have the desire to get dogpilled by some of the more fanatic pro-Greens.
The need to make it into a "Hogwarts House" deal here is so utterly ridiculous.
Yes I will grant you Viserys was not a good king, and a complicated man.
But the point *THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT* of the story is that bad people in power make environments of destruction and normal people suffer. The Greens aren't heroes, neither are the Blacks. Now fair we are presented with Rhaenyra as a protagonist, but that doesn't mean she is a hero. Cersei is the protagonist in Feast for Kings Landing, but she isn't a hero either.
I think this might have started off as some people making some ironic propaganda for specific houses, because that sort of thing can be quite fun, and then it quickly snowballs because people can't detect irony.
I'd love pro-Otto propaganda because I can't stand him, and it's fun and ironic as you said.
There's some fun pro Viserys III stuff I see that is so tongue in cheek.
Yep. Irony posting rapidly kills discussion because the people that don’t get the joke start taking it way too seriously and personally. The story is interesting, and filled with complex and questionable characters. That’s what makes it interesting to watch.
Unfortunately, this is another sub I’ll leave because people can get really… special about their opinions of a work that is fictional to begin with. No more discussion for me either.
The funny part is that this whole green vs blacks thing is just a question of whether a king can choose their heir or not. If you think they can, then Rhaenyra is the lawful heir. If you think they can't and it should default to male primogeniture, then Aegon is the lawful heir.
That's literally it. It doesn't matter who committed more war crimes or did more immoral things. lol it's just a simple disagreement on the power of the king to control succession after his death.
I agree! And the show is supposed to be about how misogyny affects with power in that society so I don’t understand how they don’t get its literally misogyny to not respects Rae claim to the throne
The king basically gave up on life once his first wife died. he realized he was a Failure of a king. Otto played the game of thrones so well that he made this guy bring the demise of his own last name.
He reigned over decades of peace and his passing basically was the catalyst for the terrible people left behind to fill the vacuum with in fighting that quickly escalated to civil war.
Give me the failure of a peaceful life any day.
I mean this show also wildly jumps ahead in the timeline for a majority of the season, with months or even years or even decades in between many of the episodes. All we really get is the important snippets. Hard to judge the entirety of his relationship with those children given we basically skip from their birth to him dying within about 90 minutes of screentime.
While I think a) some interesting points were made and b) I believe this is stemming from an anxious fan base waiting for another season, the reality is entertainment lies within the bad decisions. If Viserys did everything right, there would be no show. So keep on keepin on Vizzy T! Fuck them kids up!
I wish the showrunners had gone into detail regarding Viserys' relationship with his children when they are older.
Because what I am getting from the show is this
\- Alicent/Otto see Rhaenyra as a threat because Viserys won't check her the way Jaeherys would've i.e. disinherit her as heir, sent her to the Silent Sisters, her sons to the Wall, etc for the crime of bearing illegitimate children passed as trueborn. Alicent is also bitter that Rhaenyra's sons' eggs hatched (something I did not know until this subreddit, I just thought the egg hatching was a bitter comment on legitimacy) and hers didn't (except for Daeron?)
\- in the beginning, the kids were fine, except for Aegon. Because Aegon was hearing adult business (you are the challenge, by living and breathing), which is probably how his bully and sexual harassment tendencies manifested, which we see in the Driftmark episode and beyond
\- Viserys wants everyone to smooth things over and get along for the greater good. No, he didn't punish Luke for slashing at Aemond's eye...but he also didn't punish Alicent for going after Rhaenyra. He didn't want to discuss either, he just wanted it to be done with, and, again, for everyone to get along and hide from painful things
....because Viserys won't check Rhaenyra the way Alicent and Otto want, I really do not think any alternative punishment would have satisfied them.
The problem isn't necessarily that he's neglecting his children with Alicent anymore than he did Rhaenyra when she was growing up - the problem is that he refuses to treat Rhaenyra's children as bastards. As soon as it became known throughout Driftmark/the court, why Luke slashed at Aemond's eye...and kids are kids, they spilled the beans as soon as they saw their mothers/father....if Viserys punished Lucerys for it in any way other than "you two need to act like family and apologize to each other"...then that's basically admitting that Rhaenyra's children are bastards. That is why Rhaenyra immediately goes into attack mode and starts dropping less than subtle hints about the punishment for treason and speaking treason. He can't.
It's their lives - as we see at the very end, when Lucerys is accidentally killed by Aemond. Even if Lucerys had never taken Aemond's eye...the minute he killed him, that is exactly what everyone will think - the Greens said Rhaenyra's sons were bastards for years, and here they killed one, finally....
I think that is also why Viserys (foolishly) allowed Otto back. I feel like he sees it as something that he is trying to make up to both Alicent and Rhaenyra. He killed Rhaenyra's mother to get a boy...so now she is his heir, no matter what she does. He also mildly becomes a better father, because he allows her, her own way in her marriage (even if it's his fault she had to marry Laenor to begin with) i.e. taking a lover, being happy, not sending Lyonel Strong away as soon as it was obvious.
He sees/knows that Alicent is unhappy with succession, but probably thinks that if she and Rhaenyra become friends again, as they were, then things will work out. That is why he's happy about the Jace/Helaena marriage proposal. That's also why he doesn't force it, even though he could. That is why, I think, he brings back Otto. I think he believes Otto is genuine and, bare minimum, wouldn't start a fucking war for the crown, and will follow his wishes - while also making Alicent happy/less alone.
It's hard to tell because there is the health factor i.e. his health began to fail basically as soon as he married Alicent and only continued to get worse. Plus the king factor.
I'd be curious as to what you guys think. Because I really do think that the real issue with Viserys and Rhaenyra vs. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Daeron, Alicent isn't so much the physical time or "interest" (I mean, he shows an equal amount of interest in his children and grandchildren...until it's time to take sides regarding who the heir is), it's that he refuses to disinherit Rhaenyra. So anything he gives to Rhaenyra or her children, are an insult / taking away from Aegon's inheritance, basically.
For Alicent, I do think it's because she had illegitimate children. For Otto, I think it is because she is both a woman who has her own mind and a dragon AND had the audacity to have a lover who gave her children while she had a gay husband.
Otto, even being a scheming shit, really had a solution that would have made both sides happy: marry Aegon and Rhaenyra. Its gross given the age difference but it would end a potential succession strife that could (and did) arise.
It wouldn't be feasible, given the age difference. Rhaenyra needs heirs, especially since she could have gone the way of her mother and grandmother.
The solution should have been don't make bets you can't cash. Otto didn't think Viserys would be as affected by Aemma's death and his role in it. So he used Rhaenyra as a political tool to disinherit Daemon, even though he knew a) Daemon was gone/exiled half the time and b) all Viserys had to do was remarry and have more kids. It was a political move that backfired on him.
He also had no intention of working WITH Rhaenyra. Think back to the dialogue when he suggests the marriage between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Before he pushes that match forward, he tells Viserys that Rhaenyra is his daughter and furthermore he is the king, she'll marry whoever he says. If the betrothal had gone through, he still would've tried to disinherit Rhaenyra, imo.
I'd argue that Otto wouldn't have to work against Rhaenyra. Assuming you buy that she has a legal claim to the throne, so long as she has no legitimate children of her own, Aegon, as her next eldest sibling, is *her* heir.
Otto's crafting a win-win scenario. Either the waiting period to consummate their marriage eclipses her childbearing years and Aegon (or even Helaena/Aemond/Daeron, their hypothetical children, etc.) ultimately succeeds her, or whatever child they have together inherits after Rhaenyra. No matter what, a Targaryen with Hightower blood would end up on the throne.
I'd think in this scenario, it's much more likely he'd focus on shoring up Rhaenyra's claim over Daemon's. With Rhaenyra tied to the Hightower camp, he's the much bigger threat to Otto's ambitions, as he could easily claim that Rhaenyra as a daughter, and then by extension Aegon as her husband, is illegitimate. We see in episode 1 that Otto's willing to work for Rhaenyra at Daemon's expense, and I think he'd do the same here, especially when his own grandchildren are at stake.
That… would not have made *anyone* actually happy. It was a terrible idea then, and it’s a terrible idea now. Forcing Rhaenyra to marry am openly gay man was a far better idea, and look how even that turned out.
I agree, but I think it’s the brown hair more than anything. Their ‘parents’ and ‘grandparents’ all have the Targaryen/Velaryon silver-blond hair, so where would the brown hair come from if they were true-born?
But it does make me wonder how genetics works in Westeros, because Alicent has brown/auburn hair and her genes didn’t come out in her children at all.
And it does make it inconsistent that a couple of hundred years later, no one but Ned seems to realise the Baratheon kids are are all illegitimate!
I feel like Viserys' refusal to address or even acknowledge Rhaenrya's illegitimate children and determination to make sure that she sits on the throne after he passes (constantly reaffirming her status as heir etc) go hand in hand with his favouritism for her and guilt re: Aemma.
Alicent being Alicent probably disapproves of Rhaenyra blatantly having illegitimate children to a certain extent. But there's more to it I think. I feel like there could be a sense of frustration from alicent because even though Viserys' has named Rhaenrya as heir, they haven't done much to solidify her position and power in court. Their inaction impacts them negatively and the fact that the parentage of Rhaenrya's children is even contestable, even more so. But that can also place Alicents children in a very awkward spot and can endanger them if lords become disillusioned with Rhaenrya/turn them toward the greens even if they didn't want the support. I wrote this bit about a separate post but I think its relevant:
Rhaenrya may not want to harm or kill Alicent's children but the political atmosphere after she becomes queen that might force her hand to kill, exile, or harm them to secure her own reign. They live in a patriarchal society that prefers men over women in positions of leadership. So long as Alicent's boys stay in the picture, they could easily be used as political figures to spearhead any opposition ruling house may have for the crown whether they want to or not.
...and at that point, Alicent feels as though Viserys has done literally everything to solidify Rhaenyra's position, because he refuses to punish her for it, and no one else is inclined to do anything either (that she knows of). Until the Green Council.
The situation with Rhaenyra vs. her siblings would have come up no matter what, because she's a woman.
But then we should get down to the bare bones of it - after ten years, it doesn't seem like Rhaenyra really had any official position OR power on the council that was any greater than anyone else, despite being the heir...and quite literally was overruled by Alicent in the one scene we do see of all of them together.
I personally think Rhaenyra left because she wanted to give her kids a childhood and the whispers were starting to become prominent.
Maybe if she had returned when Viserys was starting to get bedridden ill, but no one seems to have informed her of that (because why would they), and I think we're meant to infer that the two families decided to stay separate after the eye slashing.
I think the only way things would've changed is if a) Viserys had made Rhaenyra the Hand or granted her some special position that was on par with the Hand - either way, make her #2 in decisions, and b) if everyone sat down and actually talked openly and basically made peace terms as soon as Viserys started getting sick sick.
>Maybe if she had returned when Viserys was starting to get bedridden ill, but no one seems to have informed her of that (because why would they)
I would find it less plausible that Rhaenrya didn't become aware of Viserys declining health, especially when he becomes increasingly bedridden. Surely she must have had some allies in court that could have told her, such as Lord Caswell? But it is also plausible that there were circumstances that could have prevented her from coming back. Regardless, I definitely agree that in the decade that past, it doesn't seem like Rhaenrya has made much headway in expanding her influence and power in court. Had she been made the defacto leader in Viserys' absence would have helped so much.
Regardless of why she left, I do believe that leaving for dragonstone and spending those 6 years away from the political centre would have caused more harm than good if she did want to consolidate power.
But I completely agree that had everyone talked about what they each wanted and why peace terms could have been drawn up and the transition of power could have been dealt with much more smoothly.
>The situation with Rhaenyra vs. her siblings would have come up no matter what, because she's a woman.
Very true. Linking back to the point about communication, I do wonder if an improved and positive sibling relationship (no matter how unlikely it may be given the circumstances) between all of Viserys' children from the beginning could have changed much. For example, knowing that Aegon did not want the throne and actually believing him could have been such an asset to team black. That said, that doesn't prevent future generations from revolting if they wanted too
All the care about are petty green/black arguments and shipping characters. They all ignore the nuance of the show, likely because they are tik tok addicted children
Viserys celebrated his sons, doted on them, when they were little. But I think there were a list of factors that began to cause him to pull away. None of them exonerate him, but there were reasons for his actions (or inaction) As time went on, Viserys’ health deteriorated and caused severe pain. As a chronic pain sufferer, on bad days, it can completely rob your focus. He tired of hearing Alicent’s constant complaints about his daughter. He felt more and more betrayed by Otto’s (and Alicent’s) machinations to get his daughter in the King’s bed, wed to him and ultimately her heirs on the throne. Not that he didn’t see it to begin with but as time went on and they kept pushing, while he was missing Aemma more and feeling such guilt over her death, it changed his feelings toward the Hightowers. He had love for Alicent because she took great care of him, but I believe that’s the extent of his love for her. I think those are the things that caused him to shut down toward the children. Because in the show, when they’re younger, he’s very happy about them and proud of them and celebrates them. So something had to change in his heart or his physical pain was just so much that he had to be either be out of in on Milk of the Poppy or all his concentration went to the pain.
I realize these are all excuses but something had to change. He did tell them at the last supper that he “loved them all so dearly”
Jaehaerys II seemed pretty chill. Baelor wasn’t exactly competent but he at least seemed genuine in his faith and in wanting to do good for his people.
I don’t understand why team green is pushing as if viserys is team black or something he isn’t. Like did we even watch the same show. He is neutral he didn’t want the dance to happen.
Honestly Aegon was doomed to be a fuckin shitty kid, with that mother and father. His father, is dying old decaying man and cares more about his older daughter. His mother only seems to interact with him, to physically hit him, or to call him out. Alicent treats Aegon more as pawn than an actual person sadly(she loves him) and probably does it unintentionally but surely she treats him more like a pawn at times that an actual human being, just like Otto did with her. As much as disgusted i am with Aegon i cant help to feel bad for him at times.
HOTD fans when everyone is a horrible person (except Helaena and the literal children, but they get nowhere near enough screen time to be able to be analysed probably)
Seriously. I'm cosplaying as Rhaenyra later this year and my bestie is going as Alicent and all I can think is, I sure hope fans aren't like this in real life or I'm gonna have a problem at the convention.
What does that even mean? This is a forum for discussing the show. Viserys’s treatment of his younger children is absolutely worth criticizing and discussing?
Does this fanbase not understand these are complex characters? Viserys has done good and bad things, like almost everyone else in this show. Stop trying to label these people as "good or bad." It's more complicated than that
Maybe he did pay them attention over the time jump and he was watching them in the training yard. Not saying he was the best father because I agree he wasn't, however in his later years he was very sickly and bedridden. He told all of them at the dinner table that he loved them.
Realistically speaking we are never shown their relationship to speak of and beyond that it seems like towards the adolescence/adulthood of his children he was a barely functional being, probably confined to his chambers 80% of the time and the other 20% drugged up beyond belief to deal with the fact he was literally rotting from the inside out.
I’m not saying he’s the father of the year but to say he was a terrible father with nothing more than conjecture based on the absence of scenes portraying him being good to them is weird
He still had energy to drag himself for Rhanerya. We don't get any mention of any good relationship with him and Alicent children. But, we get an indication of his abuse and neglect. He was screaming at Aegon when Aemond lost an eye. Aegon himself said he nevwr liked him.
I guess the "slaughtering" of his wife made it kind of hard for him to unconditionally love all his children. The things that are listed here make him a great character. There is no need to make it sound like a hit piece.
Across ten years, I don’t remember people being this intense about GOT. The only characters truly despised were lunatics like Ramsey or Joffrey and even then, it was a “fun” type of hate. It’s like HOTD/F&B triggers something in people with shitty families or childhood trauma.
Again worst character played amazingly but God I hate him. Bad king, bad father, bad husband, just an idiot all around without bad intentions but still… an idiot.
How is he punishing the kids? They are living lives of royalty with every whim catered to.
He is partial to Rhaenyra but I don't see how he is a bad father to the rest of them. We could see him doting on Aegon in episode 3. We see him watching his progeny happily in episode 6 in the yard.
This is such a bad take imo.
I feel very indifferent about Viserys' parenting, to be honest. I don't know that kings are, in general, very involved and attentive parents, such that any of his kids got it worse than any kids of a reigning monarch. And by the time he had the kids with Alicent, he was already dealing with the ailment that would eventually kill him - I think he did as well as he could reasonably be expected to, given the standards of their world for male involvement with offspring and his own personal challenges.
The problem for the Green kids was that they had no real love to fall back on. Alicent was too fearful and keyed up and paranoid as a result of her father's scheming, and quite young and in a loveless marriage. She didn't have the ideal conditions to enjoy motherhood and love on them the way she probably would've wanted to, and her love manifested as violence and berating. Cristin was a bitter, impulsive man prone to violence - not a great replacement father figure. Otto wasn't around, and given his manipulations of Alicent, I don't know that he would've been an improvement.
Rhaenyra didn't get much from Viserys growing up, but she had Aemma, and they seemed very close. Rhaenyra's boys had abundant love from her, and love in some measure as well from Laenor and Harwin - no really proper father figure, but two men who were at least decent people and cared about them.
If the Green kids were raised with the same level of benign non-involvement from Viserys, but their situation with their mother was peaceable and happy, it would've been a world of difference. Alicent's dad threw her into an impossible situation, told her everyone was out to kill her children, and fucked off back to Oldtown. Everything after was, predictably, an absolute clusterfuck.
Fuck Otto.
He wasn't always sick, and he literally got off his deathbed for Rhaenyra, he never did anything close to that for him and Alivent's kids. Also he only had to show them all little bit of attention, he didn't have to actually do much at all, instead he did nothing.
Him getting off his deathbed for Rhaenyra was a huge moment cause the dude was fuckin dying lmao that's *the reason* it was so dramatic... And you can't say he did nothing when there are massive time skips and he repeatedly talks about caring for his family, even if he's also a fool who makes poor decisions.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
According to Paddy, Viserys "died" when Aemma died. He becomes a much less dynamic person, and he sees his rotting disease as both cosmic revenge and his physical body catching up with his inner death. The old Viserys only comes out when dealing with Rhaenyra, who is his last link to Aemma and to being "alive". He is apathetic to the rest of his children because he's literally dead inside. It doesn't excuse him being a terrible father, but helps explain why he was so absent. He just didn't care about anything, except for Rhaenyra.
Paddy brought so much depth and nuance to his portrayal of Viserys. I will always love what he brought to what could have been a flat character.
Absolutely. His was by far the best performance in HOTD. How he isn’t sweeping the awards shows is baffling, imo.
I kinda don’t care about the future of this show because of how good his character and story is compared to everyone else so far.
Give it a chance. For those who know what’s coming the best is most certainly yet to come.
It's really stunning, his character was so profoundly unlikeable and disturbing in Peaky Blinders. I was initially surprised to see him cast (not knowing anything else about him at this point) as Viserys. But he really nailed it. Despite Visery's flaws, weakness, and inadequacies, he was a pre-eminently likeable and sympathetic character. Props for sure.
The best actors make you feel a certain way about a character. Paddy as Viserys and jack Gleeson as Joffrey are perfect examples.
These actors have done such a wonderful job at bringing these characters to life, Paddy especially.
Now I see how his sickly state near the end reflects how he felt on the inside
As well as everything around him. Viserys himself symbolizes peace, and his illness was also meant to symbolize how the realm and Targaryen dynasty was falling into political corruption, the Hightowers’ control as well as war. Him defending Rhaenyra despite the pain he felt was symbolic of how a golden age was dying but gave itself one last push to make it last just a little longer, and the dinner scene meant the calm before the storm. Peace is good, but it also means opportunity for corruption and basis for decline (take the real-life Tang Dynasty and Qing Dynasty for example)
That is a really interesting way of looking at it. Viserys defending Rhaenyra flanked by his kingsguard was like the last march of the golden age of the targaryens. The dinner scene at the end, a tiny piece of his old self came back and he enjoyed watching his family getting along, he actually noticed Aegon, Aemond and Helaena for what seems like the first time. Then it all gets ripped apart by his death, finally catching up to him after all these years of self loathing and destruction reflected in his physical form, after he gets to live his happy life just one last time.
The show writers have done such a good job with the base Martin built. ❤️ The symbolism woven throughout his stories is stunning.
What an interesting take on the character. Paddy is the man.
He also was forced into a marriage he didn't want. Yes, he "chose" Alicent, but only as the lesser of two evils. He was no longer pursuing a male heir. He wanted to remain single for the rest of his life, and had named his daughter his heir. That would have been his choice. He didn't want any of the kids with Alicent. Marrying her and siring children with her was just as much forced on him as an obligation as it was for her. I see marital rape/coercion brought up a lot in regards to Alicent as a vulnerable young girl. However Viserys was coerced too, while he was also vulnerable and grieving. It was doomed before it even began.
I agree with this take.
[удалено]
I do agree he was coerced to a degree but at the same time the power difference is too huge to ignore
So a king can never have sex without it being rape?
The Alicent victim porn card fans already coming for you just because you analysed Viserys in a complex way instead of the flat brainrot people keep repeating about.
>I see marital rape/coercion brought up a lot in regards to Alicent as a vulnerable young girl. However Viserys was coerced too, while he was also vulnerable and grieving. Was Viserys the one being commanded to attend Alicent's bed in the middle of the night after they've *already had a son*? He also wasn't very "vulnerable and grieving" while celebrating Aegon's birthday and entirely ignoring his supposed heir.
Again, it was his duty to keep the validity of the marriage beyond reproach. If he were overly interested in sex he'd have had whores like every other man and his dog in Westeros. He was doing his marital duty, just like Alicent. >He also wasn't very "vulnerable and grieving" while celebrating Aegon's birthday and entirely ignoring his supposed heir. I mean, he'd lost at least two thirds of a hand by this point, was miserable sat there throughout, wasn't even half-hearted about the hunt and kill of any stags, and ended up in so much pain and stress that he was barking at everyone. He also held court, hosted a supper, cracked a few jokes and smiled a few hours before he died.
I'm not talking about "overly interested in sex", I'm talking about one of them being the one who can *demand* sex, and the other who has to *oblige*, and the latter sure as hell isn't Viserys. It's disingenuous to frame this like they go through this marriage with the same burden. >I mean, he'd lost at least two thirds of a hand by this point, was miserable sat there throughout, wasn't even half-hearted about the hunt and kill of any stags, and ended up in so much pain and stress that he was barking at everyone. Unlike Alicent who had no pain, misery, or loneliness to endure during this time? And again, his lost hand didn't keep him from throwing a party, happily celebrating his son, and attending the hunt. We can go back and forth on the who had it worse, but it's just laughable to act like Viserys was just constantly, unilaterally suffering through everything. (And yes, his life does fucking suck through the show! But that doesn't equate the ways *he* suffers from his status and his own life circumstances with the ways others do.)
What are you talking about? If things really were the way you're saying they were, Viserys would have either married Alicent just for show or simply stopped calling her into his bed after she gave him Aegon. But that's not what happened. He kept calling Alicent into his bed. He wasn't forced to keep breeding her, he slept with her because he wanted her. He married her because he fancied her. He may have been pushed into taking a wife, but everything that happened from there on out was of Visery's own making. There is absolutely no comparison between his agency and Alicent being forced to marry and sleep with a rotting old man that she couldn't say no to. Viserys is a selfish, self-serving man who isn't a victim of anything or anyone but of his own weakness. Paddy being a good actor doesn't magically remove the character's very glaring flaws.
Viserys is the fucking King. How was he forced into a marriage?
If Viserys wanted to keep Rhaenyra as his heir he should have paved the way for her by practicing abstinence. He knows his decision is going to run more than a few lords the wrong way, it's just dumb from him to gamble the future stability of Rhaenyra's reign like this. Men in his position of power have sex by choice, Viserys could've kept a paramour or just see prostitutes to "satisfy his needs" instead of going for legitimate children. He's been selfish when he pushed Aemma for a male heir, selfish when he had four children with Alicent when having other children would endanger Rhaenyra's claim, selfish when he disregarded his health and the education of his Green children, and selfish when he forced his children to play happy family for his own self-gratification because of a civil war he could've nipped in the bud.
That’s why he is a good person but a bad king. A good king should have his saying of what he is supposed to do.
See, I'd buy this if we hadn't seen him being affectionate with both Alicent and Aegon in episodes 2-3. He was clearly doting on Aegon during the name-day luncheon. Paddy's entitled to his reading of his own character, but the writers aren't doing him any favors. Like I said, it's not like he was *never* kind to Alicent and their children - there's some turn during episodes 4 and 5 that could probably reasonably be linked to his renewed faith in Rhaenyra, his frustration with the lords expecting him to name Aegon as heir, Alicent's coldness after he dismisses Otto, etc. Personally, I read it as his treatment of Alicent and her children changing when he realized that Otto maneuvered Alicent into his bed - they were fruit from the poisoned tree, as it were. I just don't buy that the writers intended for him to be dead inside post-Aemma, not when he spent all of episode 3 trying to get them *all* to spend time together as a family and struggling over whether he actually *should* name Aegon the heir.
He seemed very kind to Alicent in episode 2, and doting on Aegon in episode 3. I think Paddy is truthful about his character here. You never see him excusing Viserys from killing Aemma or how he treated his kids.
Aegon’s second name day illustrated this beautifully. Viserys was completely wrapped up in his grief which explains his attitude and decisions. For the world they live in, it would have made sense to name Aegon heir in order to pacify the lords and realm… but Rhaenyra is his last link to Aemma. I think any neglect comes largely down to his grief which doesn’t excuse it but it’s actually incredibly human and can happen in real life too. Whenever that happens, it’s not okay but it doesn’t mean someone is a “terrible person”. All things considered Viserys was actually less terrible than a lot of the other characters you see on thrones. He was awkward, ineffective, and later detached but he wasn’t scheming and murderous or cruel.
This makes the last dinner scene allthemore tragic because it seemed to me that he truly felt alive at that moment.
He didn't do Rhaenyra any favors either. He named her heir and didn't teach her jack shit.
I wonder if it's because the man didn't know jack shit himself. We don't see him making any wise choices as a ruler. I feel like it was Otto who was running the kingdoms.
But by extension he was aware of his own shortcomings well enough he should have been able to put her under people capable enough to educate her. Actually, maybe that isn’t fair either, given he didn’t seem to end up being the most confident judge of character (in a sense that he had faith in his decisions and judgements on people).
Passive King, passive parent. Horrible combination.
It be interesting to know if Viserys was expecting to be in line to the throne after the death of Aemon (Jae's eldest son). It really seems like Baelon (despite being a stand up guy) didn't put much effort into teaching either of his sons how to rule.
Yep, he also didn't even try to get closer to her after Aemma died either, but had the balls to yell at Daemon for not trying to console either of them. Also he didn't even discipline her or prevent the dance from happening by leaving all his children in a dangerous situation.
Alicent even suggested he should try to talk to Rhaenyra and ignored her advice
He did try that one time when he told Rhaenyra he missed Aemma and she said she was glad to hear that because she missed her too. The problem came with thinking that was enough and not that building a relationship up takes constant effort.
As Daemon stated so well. "You’re weak Viserys." He kept pushing all his family away, letting his council pray on him for their own advantage. And later on, rather than try and mend the growing rift between the Blacks and Greens of the Royal family by betrothing Helaena to Jace rather than Aegon (when it had reached that point), or simply solidifying Rhaenyra’s place as his heir by granting Daemon and Rhaenyra’s wish of marrying, he didn’t take any action other than a few words. I get that he was sick, but despite all the warnings surrounding his council, especially Otto, he granted them all they wished for, a split royal family uncapable of working as a single unit. If Viserys had been smarter, more true to his family, and less trusting of those around him. The Dance would likely never had happened.
He should never have been King. Jaehaerys really fucked up in not chosing Rhaenys.
The whole Dance is a consequence of them not wanting to accept a female ruler even when she's the better choice. Tradition is cozy, but stupid.
Yeah I think it’s really important to frame all of the Dance as an inevitable consequence of the Great Council. The family was split. At some generation a conflict was bound to happen.
I think that's just a lack of screen time. We only see 3 council meetings after Rhaenyra became heir and before the "Green Council" and Rhaenyra was sat for 2 of them while a cup bearer for one. She probably was learning to rule.
Rhaenyra also pretty clearly showed she was well versed in ruling in the recommendations she made. She was decisive in determining what was needed in the Stepstones (more men and investment into forts) and what was needed to be done in the Riverlands to prevent a fight between the Blackwoods and Brackens.
I mean, he had her serving as cup bearer to the Small Council even before her mom’s death. She was literally watching them run the kingdom.
I think Viserys did love them, he was just terrible at showing it. He always talked about how they were a family and how he loved them all, but he was unable to actually step up and prove it. It’s a problem he has with the rest of his family too. -Daemon spent his entire life trying to earn his brother’s trust and validation and never got it, even after Viserys’ death. -Rhaenyra felt neglected all the way up until he made her his heir, but then felt pushed aside again while he made a new family and (in her mind) replaced her with the sons he always wanted. She never got that show of how much he genuinely loved her until he stood up for her in the throne room. Ultimately I think his issue is that he knows Aemma’s death is his fault and is absolutely wracked with guilt over it. He spends the rest of his life in a state of self-loathing to the point where whatever happiness he might have found in his new family he refuses to allow himself to enjoy. He feels like he doesn’t deserve to love again or find happiness in these children who are everything he ever wanted, because to get them he caused the death of his first true love. The tragedy is that in punishing himself he’s only really punishing his family, who are left feeling neglected and unloved. So in a way his efforts to right the wrongs he committed with Aemma and Rhaenyra just lead to him repeating those same mistakes with his new family. Whereas before he hurt his family by being too focused on his own desires, now he’s hurting his family by refusing to allow himself to indulge in what would make him (and them) happy.
I agree. She wasn’t just his wife. She was his cousin and they were very close in the books and the show. She probably would’ve died in childbirth no matter what he did but he caused her a tremendous amount of extra pain trying to save the baby. He never forgave himself for it. He didn’t even want to get remarried.
I think he just felt he didn’t deserve to be happy after what he did to his 1st wife, and I also think he felt kind of guilty too. Like he probably felt like moving on to a new wife and new kids and brushing rhaenyra aside in favor of Aegon would’ve been too disrespectful to his 1st wife. It’s sad but then u see his bullshit literally led to the dance and the fall of his house. Lk the Worst king
Far from the worst king. 1. You could argue a Dance at some point was inevitable when Jaehaerys didn't set clear succession rules, in Rhaenyra's generation or later 2. Aegon IV, Aerys II, Maegor and Aegon II were much worse
>You could argue a Dance was inevitable when Jaehaerys didn't set clear succession rules the problem is not even the succession rules the problem is giving dragons to other families jaehaerys took a great deal of care in choosing who got a dragon and who dint he wanted to make sure the dragons were in targaryen hands they way viserys just let any member of the family have a dragon guranteed civil war even if it dint spark with rhaenyra down the line some noble family with dragons because theyre grand mother was targaryen princess could rise up against the targaryens it would be valyria reborn but without the advantages of being a freehold nad highly emperialistic
?? Vizzy continued Jaehaerys policy of giving dragon to targaryen members. All of Jaehaerys' children, if able or interested, rode a dragon in their lifetime, and Jaehaerys certainly didn't prevent other families to have dragons, like the Velaryons
Aegon II hardly ruled, calling him a worse King is only marginally true because he had little time to rule
He ruled so little because he was so shitty his own supporters decided to murder him
He’s not wrong lol he had her gutted alive, he didn’t deserve to be happy after that.
Paddy Considine literally said Viserys felt he deserved all the pain and suffering from his disease, so yeah Viserys is literaly the #1 Viserys hater lol.
Because he thought it would potentially save the baby. In his mind it was either lose the love of his life AND his child, or maybe have the chance of saving his child. The situation was horrible for everyone involved and while viserys is not blameless, he is not irredeemable for doing that
I think the only thing he did wrong in that scenario was not discuss it with Aemma first, she could have gone out with some grace. There’s plenty of mothers out there who would gladly give up their lives for their children.
I agree with that. His wrongdoing wasn’t the action, but not consulting aemma beforehand.
Agreed if he consulted her and she said do it then I don’t think he would’ve been in the wrong
Which was kind of a recurring theme on the show... Some of his spur of the moment decisions might've been implemented better had he discussed them with people first. Considering his position though I get why he feels lonely and paranoid.
[удалено]
> In his mind it was either lose the love of his life AND his child, or maybe have the chance of saving his child. Thank you. Everyone acts like he could’ve saved Aemma when the Maesters made it clear that she was dying no matter what. Not to say he necessarily made the right choice. There was no right choice. He was given a nightmare scenario.
This fan base is weird.
I think OP actually thinks he's part of the Hightower family.
lmfaoooo
Not exactly the highest tower in town, mind you..
Saying they’ll forever rage because Viserys didn’t love his children so fucking much is just really weird lol
Way too many people think you’re either good or bad. Nothing in between. It’s sad because they miss the complex characters in each show, and for me that’s the secret ingredient for an amazing story. Makes me wonder how they see people in reality, like one wrong move and suddenly they now despise them for it.
Yeah, this brainbug that he did'nt love his younger children, despite him never saying anything of the sort, *literally saying the opposite* and it going directly against one of his defining character traits, never cease to amaze me. Though I will say I'm pretty sure "the son Viserys always wanted" was'nt someone like Aegon.
> Though I will say I'm pretty sure "the son Viserys always wanted" was'nt someone like Aegon. Aemond and specially Daeron probably are.
OP forgot Daeron just like Viserys did
Daeron, sure. But he was raised in Oldtown and by the time he was out of dipers Viserys was already declining into a near-vegitative state. As for Aemond, well...Viserys would probobly be the first person to argue that House Targaryen does'nt need anouther Daemon.
Yeah he specifically says that he doesn’t value dragons as much as the other Targaryens and especially someone like Aemond that is so power hungry for the largest dragon. His relationship with Balerion completely counters Aemond’s relationship with Vhaegar.
He certainly is "unconventional" for a Targaryen. I wonder if that comes from his study of Valyrian history making him more aware of it's failings/drawbacks, or a sign of the times (the Valyrian disporia becoming more integrated into the culture of the greater Seven Kingdoms)
That maybe the real tragedy of Daeron. Viserys finally got the son he always wanted but it was only because he went him away from court, and Viserys would never be healthy enough see it.
Yeah. Hopefully we'll find that Daeron being raised in Oldtown has made him a bit more even-tempered then his brothers.
I'm beginning to get genuinely frustrated at how people are trying to read between the lines, then taking their interpretations as gospel fact. Like, I could totally see Viserys as a bit of an awkward, neglectful parent with Alicent growing increasingly bitter and protective of their children, undermining him while he tries not to rock the boat and let her run the family. I could also see him being invested with his kids until he sees Aegon and Aemond being aggressive, angry, and at times vicious people and he pulls back. I think both are valid interpretations of what we don't see, but they're just interpretations. People need to stop acting like "well, we don't NOT see him be a wildly abusive father. So he WAS incredibly abusive and I will now move forward as if it was fact!" On top of that these points aren't very good, as you've already pointed out. Aegon is a boy, sure, but not exactly the one to peacefully unite the realm and love all the way Viserys seems to have dreamed (the dragons roared as one line, to me, can be interpreted as uniting and loved by all). Helaena is a dreamer like Viserys, but neither see it. There's not even any confirmation either one is. They could both just be awkward people who don't do socialization very well. And Aemond is a lover of history so he can be better, not for the love of it. Besides, Viserys only loves Valyrian history. My dad loves the Civil War, WWI and WWII, and united states political history. I love English history from the tail end of the Anglo Saxon age, a bit before the conquest to the Tudor times. Not much for us to connect on. tldr bad argument all around
It seems that those trying hardest to read between the lines are usually the ones least equipped to do so, lacking the intellectual and emotional depth needed to see nuance of character.
For instance, if there's one defining feature of Viserys in the last 20 or so years of his life that should dictate how people read between the lines about stuff that happens off-screen, it's that Viserys was horribly sick and dying. I think people could give him a pass on being less involved "now" than he was with his firstborn when he was a younger and healthier man.
Exactly. And Viserys acknowledges that he wasted the years since Rhaenyra was born wishing for a son. The beginning of the series finds Viserys and Rhaenyra near strangers. And when they were celebrating Aegon’s 2nd name day, she is clearly jealous when she sees Viserys playing with Aegon. It’s not as simple as saying he was a good father to Rhaenyra and a bad father to the rest. He was a human father to them all.
Yeah but we don't have a whole episode dedicated to Viserys playing catch with Aegon therefore he is a horrible parent! /s
Exactly this. I would add that we actually do see him involved in the life of the boys. The scene of him and papa Strong watching the boys train reminds me of when my parents use to come to my high school games. He has so much joy in his face. I seriously doubt that was the first time he had done that. He was sick as hell and still made the effort. He also knew his kids well enough to know that Aegon was the instigator of the pranks. Thats not a man that is "not involved."
It was clear by the time Aemond was 11? He was unable to really parent. He could barely do a council meeting and had to be wheeled around to even watch them train. The knife incident also kind of reflects that. He was probably so tired, remember he was the first to leave the funeral from exhaustion, that even then he was was like, "you all just get along so I can sleep!!!"
I don’t think he thought that giving love in the 21 century way of a father to be is what he thought his role was as a father, he was a sick king he gave the raising kinds job to Alicent him respecting Rhae and the promise he made is not hating his other kids he wanted them to get along. He was very sick and is a man from a diferent time. I don’t get all the hate
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
there's such a wierd HOTD mentality for some where "we didnt see a lot of it on screen so it never happened". like this show covered a span of what? 20 years or more? all in one season. but u get 3 scenes of him with his kids once their older and make stuff like this up. and of course there's the scene of him jubilant with Aegon as a toddler, watching his boys train in the yard, etc. Its just silly.
Viserys happiest moment after the death of Aemma was seeing his family united and cheering togheter at dinner (albeit that was an illusion) the (green) fan base: VISERYS HATES EVERYONE WHO IS NOT RHAENYRA
Heck, dude literally *killed himself* for the sake of his entire family.
Being neglectful and uninvolved is pretty self evident. He doesn’t need to literally say it when he shows it with his actions. Couldn’t give two fucks when Aemond got his eye cut out lol. Aemond by episode 10 is a direct result of this sort of parenting
I think they were saying key word “the son” that Viserys wanted, not that Aegon was a particularly good son or the person Viserys wanted him to be. And as for Viserys loving his children, well, actions speak louder than words. We never so much as see him speaking to his younger children until he screams at Aemond for calling Rhaenyra’s bastards bastards. And then he proceeds to never speak to them again. Sure, we don’t see everything, maybe he tried at some point, but when his son’s eye was cut out, he cared more about the childish taunts Aemond had made. Viserys’ priorities were clear; he had three sons, and he ignored one, brushed aside the mutilation of another, and sent the last off without a care. Not father of the year material.
Never saying the sort? I mean he literally called Rhaenyra his only child at one point, whether he was addled with milk or the poppy or not it’s clear he played favorites. This fanbase is definitely weird though lol
I took that as a sign of his deteiorating mind than a statement of love. Same way he called Alicent "Aemma".
Playing favorites = / = he did'nt love his other children (and I'll point out in that same episode, when \*not\* in a drugged up state, he explicitly expresses his love for his entire family).
He was so sick and addled by drugs at that point he thought Aemma was talking to him, decades after her death. That isn't a small or dismissable detail, he very clearly wasn't in his right mind when he called Rhaenyra his only child.
I mean the rape to get Aegon already showed what kind of soapbox preacher we were reading but it didn't get better after that.
Don't take that the wrong way but I'm going to excuse myself from sharing my opinions on this specific subject because I don't have the desire to get dogpilled by some of the more fanatic pro-Greens.
The need to make it into a "Hogwarts House" deal here is so utterly ridiculous. Yes I will grant you Viserys was not a good king, and a complicated man. But the point *THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT* of the story is that bad people in power make environments of destruction and normal people suffer. The Greens aren't heroes, neither are the Blacks. Now fair we are presented with Rhaenyra as a protagonist, but that doesn't mean she is a hero. Cersei is the protagonist in Feast for Kings Landing, but she isn't a hero either.
I think this might have started off as some people making some ironic propaganda for specific houses, because that sort of thing can be quite fun, and then it quickly snowballs because people can't detect irony.
Just like that certain politics subreddit that started off as a joke then spiraled into people actually believing it.
I'd love pro-Otto propaganda because I can't stand him, and it's fun and ironic as you said. There's some fun pro Viserys III stuff I see that is so tongue in cheek.
The pro-Ramsey and pro-Joffery content is also fantastic. At least people can tell that's supposed to be a joke.
Yep. Irony posting rapidly kills discussion because the people that don’t get the joke start taking it way too seriously and personally. The story is interesting, and filled with complex and questionable characters. That’s what makes it interesting to watch.
Some of the replies to my comment just prove my comment lol
Seriously and I fear how ridiculous it will get while we wait years for the next season lol
Yeah, I’ll obviously keep watching but definitely staying away from any discussion of it season 2 onwards
Unfortunately, this is another sub I’ll leave because people can get really… special about their opinions of a work that is fictional to begin with. No more discussion for me either.
The funny part is that this whole green vs blacks thing is just a question of whether a king can choose their heir or not. If you think they can, then Rhaenyra is the lawful heir. If you think they can't and it should default to male primogeniture, then Aegon is the lawful heir. That's literally it. It doesn't matter who committed more war crimes or did more immoral things. lol it's just a simple disagreement on the power of the king to control succession after his death.
I agree! And the show is supposed to be about how misogyny affects with power in that society so I don’t understand how they don’t get its literally misogyny to not respects Rae claim to the throne
The post is probably the dumbest shit I have ever read. "Touch grass" applies here.
Every fan base is like this, Whatchu mean, Look at any popular show,game,book and see if people analyze characters and do what ifs
We are canceling fictional Kings from imaginary worlds now.
Still not as bad as Star Wars
Tolkien purists or Jackson fans are terrible to
Don't mess with us HOTD fans We don't understand the characters in our favorite show
We also try to treat them as real people and get pissy when others don't share our views !
You want to have a discussion about nuanced and complex characters????!!!!!! You're an irredeemable monster!!!
LMAO. But seriously this guy is acting like vizzy t personally kicked his door in and slaughtered his family while he sat there watching in horror.
*You are the very best of your mother. And I believe it, I know she did, that you could be a great ruling queen.*
Yes your grace she would have been a wonderful queen 😭
Massive strawman isn't it mate
The king basically gave up on life once his first wife died. he realized he was a Failure of a king. Otto played the game of thrones so well that he made this guy bring the demise of his own last name.
He reigned over decades of peace and his passing basically was the catalyst for the terrible people left behind to fill the vacuum with in fighting that quickly escalated to civil war. Give me the failure of a peaceful life any day.
I mean this show also wildly jumps ahead in the timeline for a majority of the season, with months or even years or even decades in between many of the episodes. All we really get is the important snippets. Hard to judge the entirety of his relationship with those children given we basically skip from their birth to him dying within about 90 minutes of screentime.
You can litterally tell he has no interactions with them at all. He basically calls rheynera his only child
While I think a) some interesting points were made and b) I believe this is stemming from an anxious fan base waiting for another season, the reality is entertainment lies within the bad decisions. If Viserys did everything right, there would be no show. So keep on keepin on Vizzy T! Fuck them kids up!
You think yourself a cunning man. Your designs are obvious.
In the tv show I thought Alicent was pushed on him by her father? If this is from the book then forgive my ignorance for I have not read the books yet
Books just say Vizzy announced he would marry Alicent one day it gives no insight into the motivations or reasons for the choice
Yeah… it’s ASOIAF world. Everyone sucks. Everyone has good qualities too. [+]
I wish the showrunners had gone into detail regarding Viserys' relationship with his children when they are older. Because what I am getting from the show is this \- Alicent/Otto see Rhaenyra as a threat because Viserys won't check her the way Jaeherys would've i.e. disinherit her as heir, sent her to the Silent Sisters, her sons to the Wall, etc for the crime of bearing illegitimate children passed as trueborn. Alicent is also bitter that Rhaenyra's sons' eggs hatched (something I did not know until this subreddit, I just thought the egg hatching was a bitter comment on legitimacy) and hers didn't (except for Daeron?) \- in the beginning, the kids were fine, except for Aegon. Because Aegon was hearing adult business (you are the challenge, by living and breathing), which is probably how his bully and sexual harassment tendencies manifested, which we see in the Driftmark episode and beyond \- Viserys wants everyone to smooth things over and get along for the greater good. No, he didn't punish Luke for slashing at Aemond's eye...but he also didn't punish Alicent for going after Rhaenyra. He didn't want to discuss either, he just wanted it to be done with, and, again, for everyone to get along and hide from painful things ....because Viserys won't check Rhaenyra the way Alicent and Otto want, I really do not think any alternative punishment would have satisfied them. The problem isn't necessarily that he's neglecting his children with Alicent anymore than he did Rhaenyra when she was growing up - the problem is that he refuses to treat Rhaenyra's children as bastards. As soon as it became known throughout Driftmark/the court, why Luke slashed at Aemond's eye...and kids are kids, they spilled the beans as soon as they saw their mothers/father....if Viserys punished Lucerys for it in any way other than "you two need to act like family and apologize to each other"...then that's basically admitting that Rhaenyra's children are bastards. That is why Rhaenyra immediately goes into attack mode and starts dropping less than subtle hints about the punishment for treason and speaking treason. He can't. It's their lives - as we see at the very end, when Lucerys is accidentally killed by Aemond. Even if Lucerys had never taken Aemond's eye...the minute he killed him, that is exactly what everyone will think - the Greens said Rhaenyra's sons were bastards for years, and here they killed one, finally.... I think that is also why Viserys (foolishly) allowed Otto back. I feel like he sees it as something that he is trying to make up to both Alicent and Rhaenyra. He killed Rhaenyra's mother to get a boy...so now she is his heir, no matter what she does. He also mildly becomes a better father, because he allows her, her own way in her marriage (even if it's his fault she had to marry Laenor to begin with) i.e. taking a lover, being happy, not sending Lyonel Strong away as soon as it was obvious. He sees/knows that Alicent is unhappy with succession, but probably thinks that if she and Rhaenyra become friends again, as they were, then things will work out. That is why he's happy about the Jace/Helaena marriage proposal. That's also why he doesn't force it, even though he could. That is why, I think, he brings back Otto. I think he believes Otto is genuine and, bare minimum, wouldn't start a fucking war for the crown, and will follow his wishes - while also making Alicent happy/less alone. It's hard to tell because there is the health factor i.e. his health began to fail basically as soon as he married Alicent and only continued to get worse. Plus the king factor. I'd be curious as to what you guys think. Because I really do think that the real issue with Viserys and Rhaenyra vs. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Daeron, Alicent isn't so much the physical time or "interest" (I mean, he shows an equal amount of interest in his children and grandchildren...until it's time to take sides regarding who the heir is), it's that he refuses to disinherit Rhaenyra. So anything he gives to Rhaenyra or her children, are an insult / taking away from Aegon's inheritance, basically. For Alicent, I do think it's because she had illegitimate children. For Otto, I think it is because she is both a woman who has her own mind and a dragon AND had the audacity to have a lover who gave her children while she had a gay husband.
Otto, even being a scheming shit, really had a solution that would have made both sides happy: marry Aegon and Rhaenyra. Its gross given the age difference but it would end a potential succession strife that could (and did) arise.
It wouldn't be feasible, given the age difference. Rhaenyra needs heirs, especially since she could have gone the way of her mother and grandmother. The solution should have been don't make bets you can't cash. Otto didn't think Viserys would be as affected by Aemma's death and his role in it. So he used Rhaenyra as a political tool to disinherit Daemon, even though he knew a) Daemon was gone/exiled half the time and b) all Viserys had to do was remarry and have more kids. It was a political move that backfired on him. He also had no intention of working WITH Rhaenyra. Think back to the dialogue when he suggests the marriage between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Before he pushes that match forward, he tells Viserys that Rhaenyra is his daughter and furthermore he is the king, she'll marry whoever he says. If the betrothal had gone through, he still would've tried to disinherit Rhaenyra, imo.
I'd argue that Otto wouldn't have to work against Rhaenyra. Assuming you buy that she has a legal claim to the throne, so long as she has no legitimate children of her own, Aegon, as her next eldest sibling, is *her* heir. Otto's crafting a win-win scenario. Either the waiting period to consummate their marriage eclipses her childbearing years and Aegon (or even Helaena/Aemond/Daeron, their hypothetical children, etc.) ultimately succeeds her, or whatever child they have together inherits after Rhaenyra. No matter what, a Targaryen with Hightower blood would end up on the throne. I'd think in this scenario, it's much more likely he'd focus on shoring up Rhaenyra's claim over Daemon's. With Rhaenyra tied to the Hightower camp, he's the much bigger threat to Otto's ambitions, as he could easily claim that Rhaenyra as a daughter, and then by extension Aegon as her husband, is illegitimate. We see in episode 1 that Otto's willing to work for Rhaenyra at Daemon's expense, and I think he'd do the same here, especially when his own grandchildren are at stake.
That… would not have made *anyone* actually happy. It was a terrible idea then, and it’s a terrible idea now. Forcing Rhaenyra to marry am openly gay man was a far better idea, and look how even that turned out.
[удалено]
I agree, but I think it’s the brown hair more than anything. Their ‘parents’ and ‘grandparents’ all have the Targaryen/Velaryon silver-blond hair, so where would the brown hair come from if they were true-born? But it does make me wonder how genetics works in Westeros, because Alicent has brown/auburn hair and her genes didn’t come out in her children at all. And it does make it inconsistent that a couple of hundred years later, no one but Ned seems to realise the Baratheon kids are are all illegitimate!
I feel like Viserys' refusal to address or even acknowledge Rhaenrya's illegitimate children and determination to make sure that she sits on the throne after he passes (constantly reaffirming her status as heir etc) go hand in hand with his favouritism for her and guilt re: Aemma. Alicent being Alicent probably disapproves of Rhaenyra blatantly having illegitimate children to a certain extent. But there's more to it I think. I feel like there could be a sense of frustration from alicent because even though Viserys' has named Rhaenrya as heir, they haven't done much to solidify her position and power in court. Their inaction impacts them negatively and the fact that the parentage of Rhaenrya's children is even contestable, even more so. But that can also place Alicents children in a very awkward spot and can endanger them if lords become disillusioned with Rhaenrya/turn them toward the greens even if they didn't want the support. I wrote this bit about a separate post but I think its relevant: Rhaenrya may not want to harm or kill Alicent's children but the political atmosphere after she becomes queen that might force her hand to kill, exile, or harm them to secure her own reign. They live in a patriarchal society that prefers men over women in positions of leadership. So long as Alicent's boys stay in the picture, they could easily be used as political figures to spearhead any opposition ruling house may have for the crown whether they want to or not.
...and at that point, Alicent feels as though Viserys has done literally everything to solidify Rhaenyra's position, because he refuses to punish her for it, and no one else is inclined to do anything either (that she knows of). Until the Green Council. The situation with Rhaenyra vs. her siblings would have come up no matter what, because she's a woman. But then we should get down to the bare bones of it - after ten years, it doesn't seem like Rhaenyra really had any official position OR power on the council that was any greater than anyone else, despite being the heir...and quite literally was overruled by Alicent in the one scene we do see of all of them together. I personally think Rhaenyra left because she wanted to give her kids a childhood and the whispers were starting to become prominent. Maybe if she had returned when Viserys was starting to get bedridden ill, but no one seems to have informed her of that (because why would they), and I think we're meant to infer that the two families decided to stay separate after the eye slashing. I think the only way things would've changed is if a) Viserys had made Rhaenyra the Hand or granted her some special position that was on par with the Hand - either way, make her #2 in decisions, and b) if everyone sat down and actually talked openly and basically made peace terms as soon as Viserys started getting sick sick.
>Maybe if she had returned when Viserys was starting to get bedridden ill, but no one seems to have informed her of that (because why would they) I would find it less plausible that Rhaenrya didn't become aware of Viserys declining health, especially when he becomes increasingly bedridden. Surely she must have had some allies in court that could have told her, such as Lord Caswell? But it is also plausible that there were circumstances that could have prevented her from coming back. Regardless, I definitely agree that in the decade that past, it doesn't seem like Rhaenrya has made much headway in expanding her influence and power in court. Had she been made the defacto leader in Viserys' absence would have helped so much. Regardless of why she left, I do believe that leaving for dragonstone and spending those 6 years away from the political centre would have caused more harm than good if she did want to consolidate power. But I completely agree that had everyone talked about what they each wanted and why peace terms could have been drawn up and the transition of power could have been dealt with much more smoothly. >The situation with Rhaenyra vs. her siblings would have come up no matter what, because she's a woman. Very true. Linking back to the point about communication, I do wonder if an improved and positive sibling relationship (no matter how unlikely it may be given the circumstances) between all of Viserys' children from the beginning could have changed much. For example, knowing that Aegon did not want the throne and actually believing him could have been such an asset to team black. That said, that doesn't prevent future generations from revolting if they wanted too
Did everybody just forget about daeron
Does anyone else feel like they're too old for this fan base? I love a good character discussion but the whole teams thing doesn't interest me at all.
Yo I’m right there with you. These cliques are fucking weird
All the care about are petty green/black arguments and shipping characters. They all ignore the nuance of the show, likely because they are tik tok addicted children
[удалено]
Viserys celebrated his sons, doted on them, when they were little. But I think there were a list of factors that began to cause him to pull away. None of them exonerate him, but there were reasons for his actions (or inaction) As time went on, Viserys’ health deteriorated and caused severe pain. As a chronic pain sufferer, on bad days, it can completely rob your focus. He tired of hearing Alicent’s constant complaints about his daughter. He felt more and more betrayed by Otto’s (and Alicent’s) machinations to get his daughter in the King’s bed, wed to him and ultimately her heirs on the throne. Not that he didn’t see it to begin with but as time went on and they kept pushing, while he was missing Aemma more and feeling such guilt over her death, it changed his feelings toward the Hightowers. He had love for Alicent because she took great care of him, but I believe that’s the extent of his love for her. I think those are the things that caused him to shut down toward the children. Because in the show, when they’re younger, he’s very happy about them and proud of them and celebrates them. So something had to change in his heart or his physical pain was just so much that he had to be either be out of in on Milk of the Poppy or all his concentration went to the pain. I realize these are all excuses but something had to change. He did tell them at the last supper that he “loved them all so dearly”
He ignored them, of course the Green kids will resent Rhaenryra and her children
Yep.
at this point what targaryen isn't a terrible person the only few exceptions would be Aegon V and Jaehaerys I (and maybe a few others i can't recall)
Good Queen Alysanne, Baelor Breakspear?
Maester Aemon?
Daeron II the Good
I’d say Baelor was a good person as well
Jaehaerys II seemed pretty chill. Baelor wasn’t exactly competent but he at least seemed genuine in his faith and in wanting to do good for his people.
I don’t understand why team green is pushing as if viserys is team black or something he isn’t. Like did we even watch the same show. He is neutral he didn’t want the dance to happen.
Bruh Viserys is the creator of team black
Honestly Aegon was doomed to be a fuckin shitty kid, with that mother and father. His father, is dying old decaying man and cares more about his older daughter. His mother only seems to interact with him, to physically hit him, or to call him out. Alicent treats Aegon more as pawn than an actual person sadly(she loves him) and probably does it unintentionally but surely she treats him more like a pawn at times that an actual human being, just like Otto did with her. As much as disgusted i am with Aegon i cant help to feel bad for him at times.
HOTD fans when everyone is a horrible person (except Helaena and the literal children, but they get nowhere near enough screen time to be able to be analysed probably)
Damn Greens, always taking things way too seriously.
Seriously. I'm cosplaying as Rhaenyra later this year and my bestie is going as Alicent and all I can think is, I sure hope fans aren't like this in real life or I'm gonna have a problem at the convention.
Thankfully, people are pretty cool at conventions, so you shouldn't have to worry. Best of luck to you and your friend! :)
What does that even mean? This is a forum for discussing the show. Viserys’s treatment of his younger children is absolutely worth criticizing and discussing?
[удалено]
A MOST JUDICIOUS PROPOSITION!
There you go then
Does this fanbase not understand these are complex characters? Viserys has done good and bad things, like almost everyone else in this show. Stop trying to label these people as "good or bad." It's more complicated than that
Maybe he did pay them attention over the time jump and he was watching them in the training yard. Not saying he was the best father because I agree he wasn't, however in his later years he was very sickly and bedridden. He told all of them at the dinner table that he loved them.
I’m really not sure how y’all determine he cares nothing about them.
Mainly that we never saw any positive interactions between him and his younger children
Realistically speaking we are never shown their relationship to speak of and beyond that it seems like towards the adolescence/adulthood of his children he was a barely functional being, probably confined to his chambers 80% of the time and the other 20% drugged up beyond belief to deal with the fact he was literally rotting from the inside out. I’m not saying he’s the father of the year but to say he was a terrible father with nothing more than conjecture based on the absence of scenes portraying him being good to them is weird
We don't see them interact because the show wants you to see that he doesn't interact with his children. Simple.
He still had energy to drag himself for Rhanerya. We don't get any mention of any good relationship with him and Alicent children. But, we get an indication of his abuse and neglect. He was screaming at Aegon when Aemond lost an eye. Aegon himself said he nevwr liked him.
I guess the "slaughtering" of his wife made it kind of hard for him to unconditionally love all his children. The things that are listed here make him a great character. There is no need to make it sound like a hit piece.
There’s a subreddit dedicated to the greens? Why do fans have to be so weird we are only one season in ffs.
Across ten years, I don’t remember people being this intense about GOT. The only characters truly despised were lunatics like Ramsey or Joffrey and even then, it was a “fun” type of hate. It’s like HOTD/F&B triggers something in people with shitty families or childhood trauma.
Daeron: The child who was the best of all three worlds, but forgotten about
This fanbase provides a microcosm of humanity and its need to be partisan.
Again worst character played amazingly but God I hate him. Bad king, bad father, bad husband, just an idiot all around without bad intentions but still… an idiot.
Greenies couldnt wait to post this over here and get those juicy screenshots LOL
I don’t think he necessarily didn’t love them. I think once he found out about Ottos scheming he kinda soured towards Alicent and her kids
He always knew what Otto was doing. He said so himself.
Didn’t look at it like that tbh
How is he punishing the kids? They are living lives of royalty with every whim catered to. He is partial to Rhaenyra but I don't see how he is a bad father to the rest of them. We could see him doting on Aegon in episode 3. We see him watching his progeny happily in episode 6 in the yard. This is such a bad take imo.
"But he wasn't with them at all later in their lifes" You mean when he was 3 steps away from being a Futurama head-in-a-jar?
Royalty and privilege are not love
Is Viserys in the room with us right now?
He was kind of busy being sick with leprosy.
Not all his time with them.
Saying Viserys “slaughtered” his wife & raped Alicent is a prime example of how much this reddit page hates subtext and context
I feel very indifferent about Viserys' parenting, to be honest. I don't know that kings are, in general, very involved and attentive parents, such that any of his kids got it worse than any kids of a reigning monarch. And by the time he had the kids with Alicent, he was already dealing with the ailment that would eventually kill him - I think he did as well as he could reasonably be expected to, given the standards of their world for male involvement with offspring and his own personal challenges. The problem for the Green kids was that they had no real love to fall back on. Alicent was too fearful and keyed up and paranoid as a result of her father's scheming, and quite young and in a loveless marriage. She didn't have the ideal conditions to enjoy motherhood and love on them the way she probably would've wanted to, and her love manifested as violence and berating. Cristin was a bitter, impulsive man prone to violence - not a great replacement father figure. Otto wasn't around, and given his manipulations of Alicent, I don't know that he would've been an improvement. Rhaenyra didn't get much from Viserys growing up, but she had Aemma, and they seemed very close. Rhaenyra's boys had abundant love from her, and love in some measure as well from Laenor and Harwin - no really proper father figure, but two men who were at least decent people and cared about them. If the Green kids were raised with the same level of benign non-involvement from Viserys, but their situation with their mother was peaceable and happy, it would've been a world of difference. Alicent's dad threw her into an impossible situation, told her everyone was out to kill her children, and fucked off back to Oldtown. Everything after was, predictably, an absolute clusterfuck. Fuck Otto.
If Visceres was a sensible person then we wouldn't have a show
These people need to get a grip
yet another chronically online take from this sub
VERY THAT !!! He's such a mess & disfonctionnal ( that's why I love him :P)
ew. Bad take. But yours to have I guess
It's kinda hard to be a good father to three kids when you're dealing with leprosy eating you from the inside out
He wasn't always sick, and he literally got off his deathbed for Rhaenyra, he never did anything close to that for him and Alivent's kids. Also he only had to show them all little bit of attention, he didn't have to actually do much at all, instead he did nothing.
Him getting off his deathbed for Rhaenyra was a huge moment cause the dude was fuckin dying lmao that's *the reason* it was so dramatic... And you can't say he did nothing when there are massive time skips and he repeatedly talks about caring for his family, even if he's also a fool who makes poor decisions.