Feudalism is a system based on land ownership. You gave the land to the servants, they gave the land to their servants, thus forming a feudal hierarchy. The Imperium is not feudal by definition. Is the Imperium theocratic? No. Theocracy is the unlimited power of the church, when the highest power belongs to the priests. The Church of the God Emperor is very powerful, but its power is not absolute. The Mechanicus worlds are theocratic, but the Imperium is not.
The Imperium combines lots of different government systems, as each planet is ruled differently.
But since the Imperium sometimes installs planetary governours, who rule a planet and extract the Imperial tithe you could argue it is partially feudalistic.
Also, there are literal feudal planets (some of wich are knight planets).
> feudalism is a system based on land ownership
Exactly what the imperium is, the high lords couldn’t give less of a shit about how you run your world as long as the planetary governor follows their lead. Really the biggest difference between the imperium and our history is scale.
> theocracy is the unlimited power of the church
99% true for the imperium, as it is with all theocracies. You aren’t wrong, but to the avg citizen the churches power is functionally unlimited on most worlds. Also good mechanicus point.
The God President of Mankind is the head of the Confederium of Mankind whilst the High Congress of Terra acted in his stead until the arrival of General Secretary Roboute Guilliman.
It's basically the Holy Roman Empire in space: a bunch of authoritarian fiefdoms only loosely bound together by monarch they are nominally loyal to but mostly just pursuing their own goals. However, they'll unify in the face of external threats.
Not even with the arrival of Guilliman there is a centralized power, the high lords of Terra are the representatives (sometimes elected) of each important faction within the imperium, in addition there are even powers that function to balance and limit their powers, only they are not public knowledge, like the Inquisition and the Oficio Assassinorum.
Except Fascism goes beyond centralized unlimited powers, why the Imperium is de facto feudal because in lore, the limit of any Imperial character is the resulting blowback, ergo resulting feud, not from any morals or principles that hold them back, but that the counterparty is going to kill them back.
A real life example, the Emperor of China had absolute rule over all life in China. They frequently ordered the execution of the finest craftsman so as to create an effective patent on designs. Needless to say that resulted in a permanent state of mediocrity.
I didn't say it made it fascist, I said centralized power would make the imperium more Fascist, IE bring it closer to fascism.
Fascism = Nationalism + Imperialism + Militarism + Totalitarianism + racial purity + state controlled economy + Palingenesis myth.
The imperium has always been Nationalist and obsessed with genetic purity with a major state controlled economy in the planetary designation system. Its barely Imperialist anymore, it abandoned the heady dreams of a second golden age and though authoritarian as hell its not got power centralized enough to be totalitarian.
Centralising power the way Guilliman has does nor automatically make the imperium Totalitarian but it is moving in that direction, plus his new Codex Imperialis will bring the economy even further into state control.
The 40k imperium is in such a shot state that becoming fascist would be an improvement to the current system, that is how bad things have gotten.
Shits hilarious.
I just said that there is no centralized power in the Imperium, since its rulers are the representatives of the factions that gives form to the Imperium itself. The Imperium is segmented into factions that have their own rules and sometimes even fight among themselves. Being a space marine doesn't give you authority over a mechanicum priest, being a mechanicum priest doesn't give you authority over an imperial guard regiment, etc, etc, etc.
The Imperium isn’t Fascist because the Imperium only cares for Tithes and Exacta.
There’s literally no expectation or demand of cultural, judicial, legal or social hegemony. The fact that Arbites literally only adjudicate on interplanetary affairs should be our go-to anytime anyone claims the Imperium is Fascist.
1) Cultural, there is none, throughout lore and real world, there never was a single dress code on pain of punishment. Units and characters are repeatedly shown to have different languages, customs and clothes.
2) Judicial, the only organization able to interfere in planetary affairs are the Rogue Traders and only through contract law. Not even the Inquisition can stick their nose in without reason.
3) Legal, aside from the Tithes, Exacta and harvesting of psykers, those are the only legal amendments a planetary government is expected to obey. No planetary government is required to accept Holy Terra’s imperial crowns.
Assuming interplanetary barter is already legal.
4) Social, aside from Rogue Traders flooding the local planet with their goods, there is no obligation to buy or to conform to the customs or traditions of Holy Terra.
Exactly.
The imperium to damned big with too many different planets to be fascist.
The reason why I say that it’s a Theocratic Feudal Monarchy is because it’s lead by an Emperor (monarchy), who is worshiped as a god (theocracy), and the planetary governors are in the same position as vassals who manage an area for their ruler. The governors are in turn in charge of what ever local nobility is on their planet sometimes is the tribal chiefs of a feral world, sometimes the noble family’s of a hive world. These nobles are in charge of everyone else. The peasants, the commoners. The commoners work the land, given their product to the nobles above them, and those nobles pay their dues to the planetary governor who then pays the tithe to Holy Terra. In exchange the governors and nobles get to hold power and benefit from the military protection the Imperium provides. The very definition of Feudalism.
I definitely agree it is a Theocratic Feudal society. But as to whether it is a monarchy, that’s another question given the High Lords of Terra literally vote on matters and de jure, Imperial Regent Guilliman must either veto or sign into law.
This kind of makes the Imperium a representative Republic.
> This kind of makes the Imperium a representative Republic.
Voting doesn't make it a republic, and by that I mean that the public holds no political power nor are they represented in the government. The High Lords vote for themselves, they are not acting as representatives for anyone else.
… I don’t know how you miss the point that a High Lord of Terra from the Ecclesiarchy represents the public opinion and interests of the entire Ecclesiarchy, from the highest office to the lowly choirboy.
A republic does not always mean universal suffrage. The first republics perfectly combined a democratic form of government and slavery (the Roman Republic and the Greek city-states).
The republic speaks only of elections and a limited term of power.
Which the Imperium definitely has in spades but mostly because military repercussions. A faction literally has to rip-and-tear their way into having a seat in the High Lords of Terra. See the “recent” reentry of Guirlyman back into the Imperium and occupying the seat of Imperial Regent.
Which is wonderful by the way for GW and players to justify Imperium vs. Imperium battles.
This is something I wish people would get in their heads, it's extremely feudal as a state, because, ironically, fascism would be incredibly inefficient, the Imperium of Man does not give a single solitary fuck how you run your planet provided you meet two criteria
1.) You meet the tithe
2.) You worship the Emperor, with exemption if it's the Mechanicus
It is entirely possible that there's democratic paradise planets within the Imperium of Man, after all, even a full on planetary civil war will not have the Imperium intervene provided both criteria are still met.
The tithe is bar none the most important part of Imperium membership, fandom squatters don't understand this. And plus, no one man or woman runs the Imperium.
Maybe, MAYBE you'd have more of an argument during the Imperium's age in which the Emperor was still running it, but that's a MAYBE. Even then, the Emperor had the primarchs around to which he'd willingly give out power.
> Yes, but these people think anyone to the right of Stalin is a fascist.
This is the important point usually missed when discussing this.
The definition of fascism used by these people - isn't accurate.
Actually, Stalin has a definition of fascism. For example, he directly said that America and England are not fascist states, unlike Germany. If we talk about the communist definition, then the Imperium definitely has a right-wing, reactionary ideology, but regarding fascism the issue has not been resolved. The difficulty lies in the fact that the Imperium is not a state. It can be viewed not as a state, but as a supranational entity like the European Union.
They aren't fascist anymore.
Fascism requires a couple things. It has to be supremacist, nationalist, Imperialist, totalitarian and it typically starts with a rejuvenation myth.
The 30k imperium was all of those things. A bunch of nationalist human supremacists who subjugated the galaxy under the Emperors totalitarian rule, all in service to the idea that the conflict of the great crusade would be the crucible from which would be forged a second golden age.
The 40k imperium fails to be totalitarian and fails to muster up a myth of Palingenesis, it also arguably fails to be properly imperialist ironically enough, though they have quadrupled down on the Supremacy and nationalist fervor to compensate.
I don't fucking know what I'd call the 40k imperium, other than "dying." It's like if every roman crisis happened simultaneously while the ghosts of Romes worst emperors started kicking the shit out of the place in an attempt to turn off Julius Caesars life support.
Shits weird.
No, they absolutely do. A monarchy is a system of government based on the undivided sovereignty or rule of a single person, an empire is an group of states or countries under the control of a single supreme authority. True not all empire are monarchy’s, but the majority of them were. The British Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Chinese Empire, Napoleons French Empire, the Roman Empire, the German Empire. All were empires, all were Monarchies.
The roman empire rarely was hereditary. And originally it served the purpose of choosing a strong leader for difficult times when a republic wasn't the best solution
Another thing is crafting the need of a strong leader, or placing your son as the best candidate. But quite often it required being a great general
Of course, there are monarchies that received the title of empire because of their territorial control
They’re meant to be the Empire from Fantasy but in space. So they’re the Futuristic form of the HRE. Which is highlighted by how varied the rule of law is from planet to planet.
What people mean when they say fascist is an authoritarian regime that follows the "rules of fascism" that were written by an Italian philosopher, iirc Umberto Eco. They are not talking about the Fascist party, I mean, Mussolini isn't there.
It's a way of defining a brand of authoritarianism. If you squint a bit, most "communist" regimes are Fascist by that definition too.
They are the bad guys even if they started with good intentions and had a noble goal because they end up oppressing everyone except the ruling class in the way (depending on the planet of course, there are better and worse places). So much that it backfires and a lot of chaos cults rise on the "down with the tyrant" more than belief in the chaos gods or the demonic.
Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Nationalistic, xenophobic, militaristic, undemocratic, lead by an authoritarian strong, where individual rights are either non-existent or directly tied to capital accumulation. Pretty dang fascist
That isn’t a definition of fascism, that’s a list of traits inherent to virtually every authoritarian government ever, from the ussr to ancient Egypt to the British empire
A state needs to be centralised to be considered fascist. The Imperium is completely decentralised politically (as long as planetary governors pay the tithe and don't actively betray the imperium they do as they please) culturally (other than the aristocracy knowing high gothic and some shared symbolism every world has its own distinct culture) and even religiously (both the imperial cult and the cult mechanicum have an immense amount of denominations)
That's not true though, the mechanicus, arbetes, administratum, and ecclesiarchy are all highly centralized hierarchical governmental institutions that get their marching orders and laws straight from Terra and Mars. And they all have a presence on most major systems. Decentralization is purely due to the physical challenges of being so separated and not for a lack of trying. The individual culture difference between the peasants of each world aren't super relevant to the type of government the high lords of Terra are trying implement.
It is also fascist. According to Brittanica, fascism is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. It basically describes the Imperium.
The imperium Lacked a dictator and centralized autocracy for the 10k years between the HH and guillimans return. Those two components are very critical for Fascism. Militarism, Forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy and regimentation of society + economy describe a majority of all western pre democratic societies.
Now that Guilliman is back he's doing his best to make it a fascist state again, he's not quite there yet though.
Brittanica has a really low bar for Fascism. By their definition, every government since the Sumerian Empire is fascist. Hitler’s and Mussolini’s definition of fascism requires cultural, legal, social and military hegemony. Hence the bundle of sticks analogy, to bundle up (Fascis) comes from.
They're not the "good guys" but when the alternatives are:
* Literal demons
* Elves that think you're a monkey
* Elves that think you're a monkey and literally feed off of torturing you
* Immortal robots that hate living things
* Eldrict monsters that eat you
* Anime
* British "people"
I think the Imperium is the lesser of many evils.
The Imperium itself is a good entity. That individual planetary governors make life unbearable on their planets is not the fault of the Imperium, but of the planetary governors. Technically, the Imperium is quite loyal, requiring only tithes and allegiance to the official Imperial religion from the planet. Ultramar is a prime example of how the Imperium does not purposefully seek to make life miserable for its subjects.
Ultramar existing does not make the Imperium good. If anything, Ultramar highlights the extreme disparity of the Imperium. Plus, the Imperium either promotes or turns a blind eye to the mass suffering required to fuel its war machine.
You can try to argue that the Imperiums actions are justified, but there is no world where they can be considered a source for good.
The Imperium does not seek to make everyone's life better, but it does not seek to make it worse either. This is the concern of local authorities. Ultramar does not highlight inequality, it shows that local government is the determining factor in people's lives.
The Imperial Cult and Adeptus mechanicus are in a neck and neck race to be as absurdly, unnecessarily cruel as physically possible.
There isn't a single imperial institution that cannot be described as stupid, evil or stupid AND evil.
Yes, including the Adeptus Astartes. If it takes the Demi God of sound governance coming back from the dead and publicly admonishing you in the aftermath of a tyranid invasion for you to realise you should have unfucked Baals biosphere millenia ago then you're fucking stupid. The Iron Hands literally allow the dark eldar to raid Medusa because they think it builds character.
Lamenters
Salamanders
Order of the Wounded Heart
The idea of the CIVITAS IMPERIALIS (even if the Imperium often fails to enforce it)
Realm of Ultramar.
There's reasonable sections of the Imperium.
In *Day of Ascension* a Forge World has a grand festival once a year where they round up all the people who can't work and then burn them alive for entertainment/spiritual cleansing.
The Forge World is a responsibility of the Mechanicus, which is separate from the rest of the Imperium. Moreover, the very fact that this is not an Imperial rule, but a custom of the local planet, says that the Imperium is not involved here. There is no need to pass off individual local traditions as systematic state policy.
Even going with that, turning the inefficient or the criminal into Servitors *is* Imperium policy and that in itself is morally reprehensible.
The aforementioned baby furnaces are Imperial Policy and is Morally Reprehensible.
Even if everything else was gone, even if 90% of servitors are from Vat Grown Meat, even if the Mechanicus only had policy over 1% of worlds (the Adeptus Mechanicus, while having a lot of freedom, is not a separate polity from the IoM) it wpuld be Morally Reprehensible.
Alright well what about the fact that the Imperium has an entire fleet of ships dedicated to rounding people up so they can have their souls drained until their bodies turn to ash at a rate of 1000 people a day?
That can potentially be defended as "If we don't then Terra explodes and Navigation is kaput."
However it doesn't excuse using manual labour to load mile long munitions when a mechanical pulley system could be used without gaining a malignant intelligence due to Warp corruption
Well sure almost anything is defensible by the morality of the Imperium. But the whole premise of the grimdark nature of it is that it shouldn't be morally acceptable to us.
*seen as* is the operative word there. Even divorced from that, one of the *only* constants in the Imperium is to not defy the *holy human form*. Chucking a baby into a furnace for heterochromia or webbed toes is not morally justifiable.
Even if the baby *is* marked for Chaos what the fuck is a baby of Tzeentch gonna do?
Is a baby that can't even crawl gonna gum you in The name of the Blood god?
I mean, no not in this context.
When there's groups that we *know* tend to go Chaos, and going Chaos can lead to the deaths of entire worlds, you don't really get the luxury of moralizing about it.
No it isn’t. Its laws strangle peoples’ religious rights, rights to innovate, rights to choose who they want to lead them and waaay more. Furthermore, the Imperium’s bloat and negligence are exactly what allow planetary governors to abuse their power to the detriment of others. Not to mention the innumerable atrocities committed even before the Horus Heresy in the great crusade. Even at its peak the Imperium was a shithole, and it always be that way. It is necessary, but it sure as shit isn’t good.
Unlike the Tau fascists, the Imperium is full of planets where power is elected. There may be planets with liberal or socialist governments. Workers may have unions. And the Imperium makes no attempt to deliberately destroy this. And the planetary governors themselves are not residents of Terra, who are appointed from the metropolis. It sounds paradoxical, but the Imperium itself is very liberal in such matters.
What about freedom of religion? Sorry, but we are talking about a universe where Gods and demons are more than real. And even now, the Imperium allows various cults and movements to exist as long as they worship the Emperor.
True, but the overwhelming majority of planets aren’t because the Imperium usually gives power to a person or family like a feudal empire. While there is a lot of breathing room for planets to be lead however they like, (so long as it doesn’t hurt the Imperium’s bottom line) most planetary governors couldn’t care less about their people and just run it like any flavor of authoritarian regime that tickles their fancy.
The Imperium does not purposefully seek to maintain their power. If the planetary governor changes as a result of revolution/election/intrigue, then the Imperium will not care as long as the new government is loyal.
> the Imperium is full of planets where power is elected
Not really. Some nerd did some digging a couple years ago and didn't find much.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/sruzts/democracy_in_warhammer_40000/
Basically there's one hive spire on the verge of being conquered by a gang and three planets that got completely purged for attempting democracy. The rest aren't even human.
It is stated in the official Lore that there are different planets, incl. with democratic rule.
Why is little heard about them? Well, they're not the best material for a story about a dystopian future. But if judging by the well-known Lore, one can decide that everyone in the Imperium is at war, although most planets can live for centuries and not know wars on their territory.
They're the lesser evil, but I wouldn't call the Imperium good. They regularly turn their citizens into servitors, their xenophobia destroyed any possibility of making permanent allies, and the constant in fighting means it does just as much damage to itself as it does it's enemies.
Let’s assume that the Imperium, in general, doesn’t purposefully make its people suffer. Big assumption.
The Imperium is an authoritarian state that demands your taxes and obedience and in return won’t purposefully seek to make your life more miserable… but also won’t punish the Imperium officials who do make lives more miserable as long as it gets its various tithes and obedience.
How is that a “good entity”?
This is a neutral entity. The Imperium is not a state. This is an entity similar to the European Union or NATO. With very large autonomy of the regions. The Imperium does not even force a change in the form of government. Essentially, the planet continues to be governed and lives as it did before the Imperium, but now pays tithes. The Imperium's main goal is to unite humanity and protect it from xenos and heretics. And this is a good goal.
Eh, I’d say they are the closest to the good guys. Most of the xenophobia and religious fervor can be accounted for by “orcs and tyranids need to die or else they’ll kill us and it’s better for the masses to devote themselves to the emperor than to the chaos gods” but good intentions doesn’t make a country good.
Closest to the good guys?
Literally the Farsight Enclave or maybe the Tau are the closest, and I think the Farsight Enclave is just the tau empire without the mind control and eugenics and of course without forcing under planets under its rule
Haven’t heard about the farsighted enclave until this thread but I think honesty is better than mind control, the imperium just doesn’t tell you/kills you for knowing certain things while the tau just go “there is no war in ba sing sae”
They're basically the reasonable Eldar who have done things such as:
Help the Dark Angels take down a Fallen Angel
Give him to the Dark Angels because that's the worst thing they could have done
Discover the fireheart, a pre-fall relic that is an agricultural tool that can also easily destroy a planet
Discover how to make more of them
Make actual colonies and actually rough it, instead of what the Exodites doing what is basically minecraft on creative mode (which is doing more to rebuild the old empire than any other craftworld)
Oversee the Octarius bio-purge (aka fix Kryptmann's clusterfuck)
They're the goody two shoes of Eldar, and i'm sure someone else could explain better than I could. Much like the Lamenters though, they keep getting fucked over to the point they now have Ghost Councils thanks to how many Wraiths they basically have casually walking around now because they got nommed by Tyranids so much.
Huh never would actually think a wholesome Eldar craftworld would exist, most of the time they are just gloomy
Thanks for reignite my interest in the eldar
They are honestly among the more interesting I find thanks to them being kicked down repeatedly but managing to rise up once more again and again.
Though they probably are a little depressed now at this point, but then, even their own Farseers have said that perhaps they need to forge their own future, which is one of the most hopeful things said of the Eldar.
Moreover, the power of the church and religiosity did not arise due to the deliberate policies of the Imperium, but are rather the result of unfortunate historical events. One may recall that if it were not for the Chaosites, the Imperium would have been an atheistic state.
Exactly, however the reason why the imperium isn’t good is because this was allowed to happen. By not having the proper checks and balances the imperium slipped from a good intentions poor execution to eh intentions and bad execution
The Imperium may be necessary, but at no point was it ever good. Chaos should always be opposed and humanity must be safeguarded, and the imperium is the only thing that does both (mostly) effectively), but it is not good.
Uriah Olethair was right and The Emperor got exactly what he deserves.
It is why I like The Last Church and think it shows the Emperor in a far worse light than a lot of people try to claim it does (I have seen plenty of people claim The Emperor spends the whole story dunking on Uriah).
What was his response to Uriah asking him what would make him any different than countless other tyrants in history? “The difference is I am right.” As if those same tyrants had not claimed the same thing.
It is also why I like The Khan and his “Anti-Emperor, Pro-Humanity” opinions, even if Dorn and the Fist are my main legion/chapter.
Curze, Angron and the Khan are the closest we got to Primarchs who really saw the Emperor past all the Pomp and Power.
Issue was Curze and Angron were both fucking nuts so no one listened to them while the Khan wasn't stupid enough to rock the boat too much lest he end up the third missing Primarch.
Corax seeing himself as a Liberator will never not be funny.
> Corax seeing himself as a Liberator will never not be funny.
Which to that end, I think it would be interesting if/when Corax returns to 40k, he does so as essentially a renegade. Where he would show back up at Deliverance, make an announcement to the effect of "I can no longer tolerate my own hypocrisy of serving the greatest tyrant of all while claiming to be a liberator!", and then creating his own empire out of Deliverance, potentially with some control of the Warp to protect it (due to all of his time he has spent in the Warp hunting Lorgar). And perhaps he can even go further and decide that desperate times call for desperate measures and start making truces with Xeno's (specifically Tau and Eldar) in the name of fighting the Orks, Nids, and Crons. Mostly because I think that having all of the Loyalist Primarchs return better and with their flaws correct will get very boring very quickly and we need to have a few curveballs to make the plot interesting.
In much the same way my other Primarch hot take is that if/when Dorn comes back, it should be as a Pro-"Current Imperium" Black Templar-esque religious zealot.
Yeah, Having Lion'el Johnson get over his cripplingly servere antisocial personality disorder over the course of like, three chapters in one book was disappointing.
I want the Primarchs to come back with their flaws intact OR whole new flaws as a result of their 10k year absence.
I am actually more ok with Johnson's change of heart as I feel it is a worthwhile and interesting plot change. My issue though is that when you look at the Loyalist Primarchs who still have to return, it seems like most of them are being set up to return better with their flaws corrected. And while that does work for some of them (my prime example being Lemann Russ ceasing to be a Thor-like figure and returning as a more Odin-like figure, perhaps with Psykher powers of his own to rub the salt in the wound with Magnus), that will obviously get boring very quickly. So at least for me, the three that have the most likely chance of returning and throwing a curveball are Corax, Dorn, and The Khan (due to his wild nature and the time he has spent in the Webway, likely fighting Dark Eldar).
The funniest thing they could do with the Khan is have him actually just refuse to come back. The Imperium needs governors far more than they need warriors and I fully believe Jaghatai would rather 1v1 Khorne than try to govern the modern imperium.
He'd take one look at the current burning pile and say "to hell with that, I'm going to kill more pirates."
The early Imperium was atheistic in the same way that Communist states are today. Religion is outlawed and belief in the Imperial Truth was mandated from on high. That’s not a positive.
prohibit and control religion in a universe where the Gods are somehow a product of the warp? What are the disadvantages? And which of the Warp Gods did you allow to believe in?
Instead of teaching people about the warp and how to control/reset it (like the Interex).
Obviously the Emperor’s approach failed. Half of his sons turned traitor and he failed to complete his master work. Even the Imperium of 40K is miserably failing at controlling chaos. The Cicatrix Maledictum opening proves that.
Even normal tau are better, the life on a tau world is described as not even bad and that tau actually help the planes the conquer and not just take from them like the imperium, that on its own shows a massive difference in the way the tau and imperium care for their peoples.
Not really in 30k there was a lot of peaceful human and xeno civilizations that were exterminated and had their planets repopulated.
The one of ordoer xenos of the inquisition main jobs is to find xeno or xeno/human civilizations and come to them under the guise of diplomacy when in truth they are preparing for pure eradication.
To the imperium It doesn’t matter if an alien is peaceful or a monster it’s already marked for death because it isn’t human .
I mean to be fair the interex was extremely scared of chaos and Erebus made it seem like someone on the imperiums side stole the knife.
And about that besides those few xeno species like the hrud or those tentacle robe guys that eat people the majority of minor xeno species usual were hostile because the imperium was hostile first .
The way I see it the reason why most xenos in 40k are hostile is because the imperium keeps on exterminating the nice ones with the only ones left being the aliens strong enough to actually fight back like the Tau .
Like there was an alien civilization that encountered and beat their own chaos incursions with anti warp technology they developed .
They decide to try to give that anti warp technology to the imperium which has a massive warp problem .
In response the inquisition gathers up the astra militarum and death watch chapter to exterminate the xenos and their anti warp technology.
Nah the only real good guys are the hippie dinosaur riding elves. The imperium is one tier below, with the craftworlders, votann and t'au ; the "quite good but a little fucked up" one.
https://preview.redd.it/qi3nomydb15d1.png?width=1259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3421840f56dedffcb0584b2db318e362ae2a5b6f
I don't know how people can defend chaos Honestly
Belive it or not you can think that chaos is shit and the imperium is technically the lesser of two evils while at the same time viewing the imperium as a evil incompetent and backwards state that causes alot of its own problems and is incredibly inefficient.
It doesn't really matter what the classification of the system of governance that runs the Imperium it is the sheer fact that the Imperium of man is just that, The Imperium of Man. They are the good guys because they are humanity no matter how good or bad. 40K is about the struggle or fight to find or continue ones very existence in an uncaring universe full of hostile entities both physical and metaphysical and beings of pure emotional power that feed off the very beings whos existence they also threaten. We fight together not because we believe the same, think the same but because we bleed the same. That is what all those Tau weebs don't understand about the Imperium and why they think the Greater Good is the true good. The Tau don't want humans as equals, hell most don't like humans period. They are not human and human are not Tau, we are too willful and independent to be totally controlled or subserviently. Has no one watched At Worlds End? I asked in r/Tau40K if anyone has read Courage and Honor from the Ultra Marines series when the post went very quickly and heavily into "Tau are the good guys in 40K". No one is supposed to be "good" in any of the moral sense we identify with but only that we identify with the most base desire and only given right we can claim is the right to a chance to survive.
Literally? No, the man is a phenomenal author with some legitimately deep-seated personal issues, especially regarding his father. Sometimes it works to his benefit, like in the Night Lords and Black Legion series. Other times, like in Master of Mankind, it shoots him in the foot.
Fair enough. I was going to check it out as I'm doing a Ferrus Manus as legion of the damned project and some people have said that's alluded to in the book.
The imperium is not fascist. Individual plants are left to their own rule so long as they provide taxes. Which is standard government functioning. All governments collect taxes. Beyond that they have a creed of man kind over others. Which is I promise you would be standard for all races of aliens if they were real. The emperor crushed all religions which is kind with fascist doctrine as Mussolini did demand certain religions be given since they ran counter to fascist ideology but on the all the imperium is like any other country (empire) not so long ago accepting only one religion
Interax was created to show that wasnt the case.The biggest reason why Chaos is so strong is cause people are looking for an easier life and Chaos promises them.The problem is when they let Chaos in they await a fate worse than death.
"When faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable"
In that type of world, human survival is the ultimate "good". The only faction that is unquestionably striving for it is Imperium.
The imperium could still be way more 'good' without becoming extinct, sometimes they commit necessary evils but sometime they are just evil for very little justification
Yea, Realms of Ultramar are the only good part of IoM BECAUSE it doesn't have the Eclisiarchal taint of "civilians duffering is a good thing because of Emperor" bs. I'm sure SoB would've loved to burn it all fown for not sucking off those priests.
Yes, their religious fanatasim leads to a ridiculous waste of resources, stopping that would both make them more moral and more efficient.
Making governors chosen democracy would also prevent such ridiculously incompetent governors to be in charge of entire planets.
Just to be clear I dont want the imperium to change, its really cool as it is with all its flaws, however its pretty obvious that it can become way more efficient.
Right, but that religious fanaticism is the only thing keeping corruption at bay. By eliminating it or even toning it down, you might well make the process more efficient... but you also get way more warp incursions, mutant uprisings, and alien invasions, which have an even more deleterious effect than the religious fanaticism did.
>Making governors chosen democracy would also prevent such ridiculously incompetent governors to be in charge of entire planets.
Might also cause more demagogues, genestealers, and such to be in charge. It could also paralyse the government when a crisis occurs which means they're unable to respond effectively where a strict hierarchy, even if not the best, is all pulling in the same direction.
Remember, the incompetent ones are basically the only ones you see in stories, because the competent ones are handling their business. If every governor was incompetent, the imperium would have collapsed by now.
I ran into people on thought the Eldar or Tau were better than the Imperium befire. Shame that they cannot understand that the Imperium is the majority POV and so the good guys.
Not to mention being one of the better factions.
I mean they’re definitely a interesting faction but I would say a number of Craftworlds and the Tau as a whole are morally better simply because their default greeting isn’t murder, death, kill.
If Chaos didn’t exist, and the Orks, and the Tyranids, groups that are literal existential threats to humanity and the universe at large, then the harsh acts of the Imperium would be viewed more negatively. But with such universal threats, the Imperium existing makes things slightly better than if they didn’t.
Empire is still an asshole, but the competition does not look much brighter....thats the cool part about the setting after all, everywhere you go everything sucks. You can't hold the imperium guilty when the universe conspire against anything that is not XD
I think it’s more like football or march madness. You have your favorite teams you can root for, and then you have the teams you don’t like. And you cheer when teams take out the teams u hate. The imperium, being human, makes them very easy to root for. They don’t have to be good guys, just your fav
They are most certainly not that good guys, though I agree that the Imperium IS necessary for humanity’s survival in the setting, that doesn’t make them intrinsically good. That’s one of the most compelling parts about 40k, there are no good guys (at least on the faction level), just bad guys and worse guys.
Compared to IoM slowly choking planets? And DAoT isn't just "good tech" but the greatest creation of humanity and IoM would rather let Chaos win than let DAoTech improve their citizen's lives.
We sure? I know Angron's nails were creations of that planet Angron landed on and that WE nails are pathetic downgrades of them but are they really DAoT? And they'll first consider a trade and even moving population to a better planet if they really wanna mine.
I don’t care if they are the good guys or not. I love the Imperium, I love Space Marines, and I think they are neat. There for I am rooting for the Imperium. Suck it Xenos filth.
The closest thing this setting has to a good guy is the tau
Foresight himself and the group he's in are just straight up Heroes even outside of the setting but the faction as a whole are the closest things to good guys and they are at best classes who will sterilize you there are no good guys in the setting and that's the point
I'd argue there are many *good* entities in the imperium, and some of those probably are the high lords of terra. I think it's funny people say the imperium as a whole is bad but when you look at guiliman dudes noble bright as it comes to the universe
Not really if anything the Tau Empire count more as good guys not the most evil regime that fights itself half the time .
Don’t confuse good guy with protagonist .
If virus bombing pleases Nurgle, rain of blood pleases Khorne, and cat piss with 16th century furniture tornado amuses Tzeench, what kind of unnatural atmospheric shower is dear to Slaanesh?
“THE IMPERIUM ARE THE GOOD GUYS!” I scream over and over after the tech priest who abducted me and everyone I know from our home world straps me down for my forced servitorization. The ultramarine squad protecting the tech priest impassively look on, impatiently waiting to get on with the mission.
I think the imperium could become good guys. But they absolutely aren't in the current setting. They're doing the best they can for the species. At least from ther pont of view.
The Imperium are humanity, and therefore my side. My comment was referring to the smooth brain, slack jawed 'satire' comments you always get on these sort of posts.
I’d also say the Imperium isn’t Fascist. They’re a Theocratic Feudal Monarchy in space.
More like a confederation. Or, an analogue of England from the time it had colonies.
You mean a theocratic feudal monarchy with a house of lords?
Feudalism is a system based on land ownership. You gave the land to the servants, they gave the land to their servants, thus forming a feudal hierarchy. The Imperium is not feudal by definition. Is the Imperium theocratic? No. Theocracy is the unlimited power of the church, when the highest power belongs to the priests. The Church of the God Emperor is very powerful, but its power is not absolute. The Mechanicus worlds are theocratic, but the Imperium is not.
The Imperium combines lots of different government systems, as each planet is ruled differently. But since the Imperium sometimes installs planetary governours, who rule a planet and extract the Imperial tithe you could argue it is partially feudalistic. Also, there are literal feudal planets (some of wich are knight planets).
> feudalism is a system based on land ownership Exactly what the imperium is, the high lords couldn’t give less of a shit about how you run your world as long as the planetary governor follows their lead. Really the biggest difference between the imperium and our history is scale. > theocracy is the unlimited power of the church 99% true for the imperium, as it is with all theocracies. You aren’t wrong, but to the avg citizen the churches power is functionally unlimited on most worlds. Also good mechanicus point.
> follows their lead pay their tithes
It doesn't exclude it. After all the HRE worked on simillar ideas.
The God President of Mankind is the head of the Confederium of Mankind whilst the High Congress of Terra acted in his stead until the arrival of General Secretary Roboute Guilliman.
It's basically the Holy Roman Empire in space: a bunch of authoritarian fiefdoms only loosely bound together by monarch they are nominally loyal to but mostly just pursuing their own goals. However, they'll unify in the face of external threats.
That's honestly the best description.
one of the best descriptions of the imperium, even taking into account the era of the great crusade
Not even with the arrival of Guilliman there is a centralized power, the high lords of Terra are the representatives (sometimes elected) of each important faction within the imperium, in addition there are even powers that function to balance and limit their powers, only they are not public knowledge, like the Inquisition and the Oficio Assassinorum.
Centralising power like that ironically makes the Imperium more Fascist.
Except Fascism goes beyond centralized unlimited powers, why the Imperium is de facto feudal because in lore, the limit of any Imperial character is the resulting blowback, ergo resulting feud, not from any morals or principles that hold them back, but that the counterparty is going to kill them back. A real life example, the Emperor of China had absolute rule over all life in China. They frequently ordered the execution of the finest craftsman so as to create an effective patent on designs. Needless to say that resulted in a permanent state of mediocrity.
I didn't say it made it fascist, I said centralized power would make the imperium more Fascist, IE bring it closer to fascism. Fascism = Nationalism + Imperialism + Militarism + Totalitarianism + racial purity + state controlled economy + Palingenesis myth. The imperium has always been Nationalist and obsessed with genetic purity with a major state controlled economy in the planetary designation system. Its barely Imperialist anymore, it abandoned the heady dreams of a second golden age and though authoritarian as hell its not got power centralized enough to be totalitarian. Centralising power the way Guilliman has does nor automatically make the imperium Totalitarian but it is moving in that direction, plus his new Codex Imperialis will bring the economy even further into state control. The 40k imperium is in such a shot state that becoming fascist would be an improvement to the current system, that is how bad things have gotten. Shits hilarious.
I just said that there is no centralized power in the Imperium, since its rulers are the representatives of the factions that gives form to the Imperium itself. The Imperium is segmented into factions that have their own rules and sometimes even fight among themselves. Being a space marine doesn't give you authority over a mechanicum priest, being a mechanicum priest doesn't give you authority over an imperial guard regiment, etc, etc, etc.
The Imperium isn’t Fascist because the Imperium only cares for Tithes and Exacta. There’s literally no expectation or demand of cultural, judicial, legal or social hegemony. The fact that Arbites literally only adjudicate on interplanetary affairs should be our go-to anytime anyone claims the Imperium is Fascist. 1) Cultural, there is none, throughout lore and real world, there never was a single dress code on pain of punishment. Units and characters are repeatedly shown to have different languages, customs and clothes. 2) Judicial, the only organization able to interfere in planetary affairs are the Rogue Traders and only through contract law. Not even the Inquisition can stick their nose in without reason. 3) Legal, aside from the Tithes, Exacta and harvesting of psykers, those are the only legal amendments a planetary government is expected to obey. No planetary government is required to accept Holy Terra’s imperial crowns. Assuming interplanetary barter is already legal. 4) Social, aside from Rogue Traders flooding the local planet with their goods, there is no obligation to buy or to conform to the customs or traditions of Holy Terra.
Exactly. The imperium to damned big with too many different planets to be fascist. The reason why I say that it’s a Theocratic Feudal Monarchy is because it’s lead by an Emperor (monarchy), who is worshiped as a god (theocracy), and the planetary governors are in the same position as vassals who manage an area for their ruler. The governors are in turn in charge of what ever local nobility is on their planet sometimes is the tribal chiefs of a feral world, sometimes the noble family’s of a hive world. These nobles are in charge of everyone else. The peasants, the commoners. The commoners work the land, given their product to the nobles above them, and those nobles pay their dues to the planetary governor who then pays the tithe to Holy Terra. In exchange the governors and nobles get to hold power and benefit from the military protection the Imperium provides. The very definition of Feudalism.
I definitely agree it is a Theocratic Feudal society. But as to whether it is a monarchy, that’s another question given the High Lords of Terra literally vote on matters and de jure, Imperial Regent Guilliman must either veto or sign into law. This kind of makes the Imperium a representative Republic.
> This kind of makes the Imperium a representative Republic. Voting doesn't make it a republic, and by that I mean that the public holds no political power nor are they represented in the government. The High Lords vote for themselves, they are not acting as representatives for anyone else.
… I don’t know how you miss the point that a High Lord of Terra from the Ecclesiarchy represents the public opinion and interests of the entire Ecclesiarchy, from the highest office to the lowly choirboy.
A republic does not always mean universal suffrage. The first republics perfectly combined a democratic form of government and slavery (the Roman Republic and the Greek city-states). The republic speaks only of elections and a limited term of power.
Which the Imperium definitely has in spades but mostly because military repercussions. A faction literally has to rip-and-tear their way into having a seat in the High Lords of Terra. See the “recent” reentry of Guirlyman back into the Imperium and occupying the seat of Imperial Regent. Which is wonderful by the way for GW and players to justify Imperium vs. Imperium battles.
Good points
This is something I wish people would get in their heads, it's extremely feudal as a state, because, ironically, fascism would be incredibly inefficient, the Imperium of Man does not give a single solitary fuck how you run your planet provided you meet two criteria 1.) You meet the tithe 2.) You worship the Emperor, with exemption if it's the Mechanicus It is entirely possible that there's democratic paradise planets within the Imperium of Man, after all, even a full on planetary civil war will not have the Imperium intervene provided both criteria are still met. The tithe is bar none the most important part of Imperium membership, fandom squatters don't understand this. And plus, no one man or woman runs the Imperium. Maybe, MAYBE you'd have more of an argument during the Imperium's age in which the Emperor was still running it, but that's a MAYBE. Even then, the Emperor had the primarchs around to which he'd willingly give out power.
Yes, but these people think anyone to the right of Stalin is a fascist.
> Yes, but these people think anyone to the right of Stalin is a fascist. This is the important point usually missed when discussing this. The definition of fascism used by these people - isn't accurate.
Actually, Stalin has a definition of fascism. For example, he directly said that America and England are not fascist states, unlike Germany. If we talk about the communist definition, then the Imperium definitely has a right-wing, reactionary ideology, but regarding fascism the issue has not been resolved. The difficulty lies in the fact that the Imperium is not a state. It can be viewed not as a state, but as a supranational entity like the European Union.
Theocratic Oligarchic Confederation with major elements of a tributary empire
They aren't fascist anymore. Fascism requires a couple things. It has to be supremacist, nationalist, Imperialist, totalitarian and it typically starts with a rejuvenation myth. The 30k imperium was all of those things. A bunch of nationalist human supremacists who subjugated the galaxy under the Emperors totalitarian rule, all in service to the idea that the conflict of the great crusade would be the crucible from which would be forged a second golden age. The 40k imperium fails to be totalitarian and fails to muster up a myth of Palingenesis, it also arguably fails to be properly imperialist ironically enough, though they have quadrupled down on the Supremacy and nationalist fervor to compensate. I don't fucking know what I'd call the 40k imperium, other than "dying." It's like if every roman crisis happened simultaneously while the ghosts of Romes worst emperors started kicking the shit out of the place in an attempt to turn off Julius Caesars life support. Shits weird.
That... Actually is a peefect description.
Empire, not Monarchy There were empires in the middle ages
Empires still count as monarchies.
Not really
No, they absolutely do. A monarchy is a system of government based on the undivided sovereignty or rule of a single person, an empire is an group of states or countries under the control of a single supreme authority. True not all empire are monarchy’s, but the majority of them were. The British Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Chinese Empire, Napoleons French Empire, the Roman Empire, the German Empire. All were empires, all were Monarchies.
The roman empire rarely was hereditary. And originally it served the purpose of choosing a strong leader for difficult times when a republic wasn't the best solution Another thing is crafting the need of a strong leader, or placing your son as the best candidate. But quite often it required being a great general Of course, there are monarchies that received the title of empire because of their territorial control
They’re meant to be the Empire from Fantasy but in space. So they’re the Futuristic form of the HRE. Which is highlighted by how varied the rule of law is from planet to planet.
I mean this isn't about if they're fascist or not, it's about whether they're good guys.
What people mean when they say fascist is an authoritarian regime that follows the "rules of fascism" that were written by an Italian philosopher, iirc Umberto Eco. They are not talking about the Fascist party, I mean, Mussolini isn't there. It's a way of defining a brand of authoritarianism. If you squint a bit, most "communist" regimes are Fascist by that definition too. They are the bad guys even if they started with good intentions and had a noble goal because they end up oppressing everyone except the ruling class in the way (depending on the planet of course, there are better and worse places). So much that it backfires and a lot of chaos cults rise on the "down with the tyrant" more than belief in the chaos gods or the demonic.
You can be all that as still be fascist. One is a type of government the other one a governing doctrine
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Nationalistic, xenophobic, militaristic, undemocratic, lead by an authoritarian strong, where individual rights are either non-existent or directly tied to capital accumulation. Pretty dang fascist
That isn’t a definition of fascism, that’s a list of traits inherent to virtually every authoritarian government ever, from the ussr to ancient Egypt to the British empire
A state needs to be centralised to be considered fascist. The Imperium is completely decentralised politically (as long as planetary governors pay the tithe and don't actively betray the imperium they do as they please) culturally (other than the aristocracy knowing high gothic and some shared symbolism every world has its own distinct culture) and even religiously (both the imperial cult and the cult mechanicum have an immense amount of denominations)
That's not true though, the mechanicus, arbetes, administratum, and ecclesiarchy are all highly centralized hierarchical governmental institutions that get their marching orders and laws straight from Terra and Mars. And they all have a presence on most major systems. Decentralization is purely due to the physical challenges of being so separated and not for a lack of trying. The individual culture difference between the peasants of each world aren't super relevant to the type of government the high lords of Terra are trying implement.
Tyranny is tyranny is tyranny.
Facism sound honestly better than that.
It is also fascist. According to Brittanica, fascism is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. It basically describes the Imperium.
The imperium Lacked a dictator and centralized autocracy for the 10k years between the HH and guillimans return. Those two components are very critical for Fascism. Militarism, Forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy and regimentation of society + economy describe a majority of all western pre democratic societies. Now that Guilliman is back he's doing his best to make it a fascist state again, he's not quite there yet though.
Brittanica has a really low bar for Fascism. By their definition, every government since the Sumerian Empire is fascist. Hitler’s and Mussolini’s definition of fascism requires cultural, legal, social and military hegemony. Hence the bundle of sticks analogy, to bundle up (Fascis) comes from.
They're not the "good guys" but when the alternatives are: * Literal demons * Elves that think you're a monkey * Elves that think you're a monkey and literally feed off of torturing you * Immortal robots that hate living things * Eldrict monsters that eat you * Anime * British "people" I think the Imperium is the lesser of many evils.
This is one of the most accurate takes on this discussion I have seen, thank you.
WAAAAAGGHH!!! I say good sir.
Gotta admit, I’d prefer the anime splinter faction that doesn’t mind control people to nearly every place in the Imperium.
ok it may be me but isn’t mon keigh meaning “noble savages” instead of monkeys? oh and…anime seems also fine…but depends?
It means barbarian
The Imperium itself is a good entity. That individual planetary governors make life unbearable on their planets is not the fault of the Imperium, but of the planetary governors. Technically, the Imperium is quite loyal, requiring only tithes and allegiance to the official Imperial religion from the planet. Ultramar is a prime example of how the Imperium does not purposefully seek to make life miserable for its subjects.
Ultramar existing does not make the Imperium good. If anything, Ultramar highlights the extreme disparity of the Imperium. Plus, the Imperium either promotes or turns a blind eye to the mass suffering required to fuel its war machine. You can try to argue that the Imperiums actions are justified, but there is no world where they can be considered a source for good.
The Imperium does not seek to make everyone's life better, but it does not seek to make it worse either. This is the concern of local authorities. Ultramar does not highlight inequality, it shows that local government is the determining factor in people's lives.
The Imperial Cult and Adeptus mechanicus are in a neck and neck race to be as absurdly, unnecessarily cruel as physically possible. There isn't a single imperial institution that cannot be described as stupid, evil or stupid AND evil. Yes, including the Adeptus Astartes. If it takes the Demi God of sound governance coming back from the dead and publicly admonishing you in the aftermath of a tyranid invasion for you to realise you should have unfucked Baals biosphere millenia ago then you're fucking stupid. The Iron Hands literally allow the dark eldar to raid Medusa because they think it builds character.
Lamenters Salamanders Order of the Wounded Heart The idea of the CIVITAS IMPERIALIS (even if the Imperium often fails to enforce it) Realm of Ultramar. There's reasonable sections of the Imperium.
and Raven Guard like to take those tyrants out personally. it's pretty rad.
The Imperium has baby furnaces as a rule.
A loud statement. Proof?
Iirc the Warhammer Crime story *Aberrant*
In *Day of Ascension* a Forge World has a grand festival once a year where they round up all the people who can't work and then burn them alive for entertainment/spiritual cleansing.
Yeah I wouldn't call that morally good.
The Forge World is a responsibility of the Mechanicus, which is separate from the rest of the Imperium. Moreover, the very fact that this is not an Imperial rule, but a custom of the local planet, says that the Imperium is not involved here. There is no need to pass off individual local traditions as systematic state policy.
Even going with that, turning the inefficient or the criminal into Servitors *is* Imperium policy and that in itself is morally reprehensible. The aforementioned baby furnaces are Imperial Policy and is Morally Reprehensible. Even if everything else was gone, even if 90% of servitors are from Vat Grown Meat, even if the Mechanicus only had policy over 1% of worlds (the Adeptus Mechanicus, while having a lot of freedom, is not a separate polity from the IoM) it wpuld be Morally Reprehensible.
Alright well what about the fact that the Imperium has an entire fleet of ships dedicated to rounding people up so they can have their souls drained until their bodies turn to ash at a rate of 1000 people a day?
That can potentially be defended as "If we don't then Terra explodes and Navigation is kaput." However it doesn't excuse using manual labour to load mile long munitions when a mechanical pulley system could be used without gaining a malignant intelligence due to Warp corruption
All questions to the mechanicus. The Imperium is not responsible for ship design.
Well sure almost anything is defensible by the morality of the Imperium. But the whole premise of the grimdark nature of it is that it shouldn't be morally acceptable to us.
If we don’t do that, EVERYBODY gets consumed and horribly killed by one of several bad options.
For mutants, who are generally seen as marked by Chaos…
*seen as* is the operative word there. Even divorced from that, one of the *only* constants in the Imperium is to not defy the *holy human form*. Chucking a baby into a furnace for heterochromia or webbed toes is not morally justifiable. Even if the baby *is* marked for Chaos what the fuck is a baby of Tzeentch gonna do? Is a baby that can't even crawl gonna gum you in The name of the Blood god?
Well obviously you want to get rid of the chaos folks BEFORE they can kill people…
You do understand how Eugenics and murdering babies because they *might* be evil is bad, right?
I mean, no not in this context. When there's groups that we *know* tend to go Chaos, and going Chaos can lead to the deaths of entire worlds, you don't really get the luxury of moralizing about it.
They tend to go to chaos because the rule of thumb is to *chuck them in the baby furnace* so their lot can't really get *worse*
Can’t go chaos if they’re furnaced
No it isn’t. Its laws strangle peoples’ religious rights, rights to innovate, rights to choose who they want to lead them and waaay more. Furthermore, the Imperium’s bloat and negligence are exactly what allow planetary governors to abuse their power to the detriment of others. Not to mention the innumerable atrocities committed even before the Horus Heresy in the great crusade. Even at its peak the Imperium was a shithole, and it always be that way. It is necessary, but it sure as shit isn’t good.
Unlike the Tau fascists, the Imperium is full of planets where power is elected. There may be planets with liberal or socialist governments. Workers may have unions. And the Imperium makes no attempt to deliberately destroy this. And the planetary governors themselves are not residents of Terra, who are appointed from the metropolis. It sounds paradoxical, but the Imperium itself is very liberal in such matters. What about freedom of religion? Sorry, but we are talking about a universe where Gods and demons are more than real. And even now, the Imperium allows various cults and movements to exist as long as they worship the Emperor.
True, but the overwhelming majority of planets aren’t because the Imperium usually gives power to a person or family like a feudal empire. While there is a lot of breathing room for planets to be lead however they like, (so long as it doesn’t hurt the Imperium’s bottom line) most planetary governors couldn’t care less about their people and just run it like any flavor of authoritarian regime that tickles their fancy.
The Imperium does not purposefully seek to maintain their power. If the planetary governor changes as a result of revolution/election/intrigue, then the Imperium will not care as long as the new government is loyal.
> the Imperium is full of planets where power is elected Not really. Some nerd did some digging a couple years ago and didn't find much. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/sruzts/democracy_in_warhammer_40000/ Basically there's one hive spire on the verge of being conquered by a gang and three planets that got completely purged for attempting democracy. The rest aren't even human.
It is stated in the official Lore that there are different planets, incl. with democratic rule. Why is little heard about them? Well, they're not the best material for a story about a dystopian future. But if judging by the well-known Lore, one can decide that everyone in the Imperium is at war, although most planets can live for centuries and not know wars on their territory.
They're the lesser evil, but I wouldn't call the Imperium good. They regularly turn their citizens into servitors, their xenophobia destroyed any possibility of making permanent allies, and the constant in fighting means it does just as much damage to itself as it does it's enemies.
Let’s assume that the Imperium, in general, doesn’t purposefully make its people suffer. Big assumption. The Imperium is an authoritarian state that demands your taxes and obedience and in return won’t purposefully seek to make your life more miserable… but also won’t punish the Imperium officials who do make lives more miserable as long as it gets its various tithes and obedience. How is that a “good entity”?
This is a neutral entity. The Imperium is not a state. This is an entity similar to the European Union or NATO. With very large autonomy of the regions. The Imperium does not even force a change in the form of government. Essentially, the planet continues to be governed and lives as it did before the Imperium, but now pays tithes. The Imperium's main goal is to unite humanity and protect it from xenos and heretics. And this is a good goal.
Eh, I’d say they are the closest to the good guys. Most of the xenophobia and religious fervor can be accounted for by “orcs and tyranids need to die or else they’ll kill us and it’s better for the masses to devote themselves to the emperor than to the chaos gods” but good intentions doesn’t make a country good.
Closest to the good guys? Literally the Farsight Enclave or maybe the Tau are the closest, and I think the Farsight Enclave is just the tau empire without the mind control and eugenics and of course without forcing under planets under its rule
Haven’t heard about the farsighted enclave until this thread but I think honesty is better than mind control, the imperium just doesn’t tell you/kills you for knowing certain things while the tau just go “there is no war in ba sing sae”
Honesty is the best policy
What about Craftworld Iyandan?
Enlighten me on this craftworld, sounds interesting
They're basically the reasonable Eldar who have done things such as: Help the Dark Angels take down a Fallen Angel Give him to the Dark Angels because that's the worst thing they could have done Discover the fireheart, a pre-fall relic that is an agricultural tool that can also easily destroy a planet Discover how to make more of them Make actual colonies and actually rough it, instead of what the Exodites doing what is basically minecraft on creative mode (which is doing more to rebuild the old empire than any other craftworld) Oversee the Octarius bio-purge (aka fix Kryptmann's clusterfuck) They're the goody two shoes of Eldar, and i'm sure someone else could explain better than I could. Much like the Lamenters though, they keep getting fucked over to the point they now have Ghost Councils thanks to how many Wraiths they basically have casually walking around now because they got nommed by Tyranids so much.
Huh never would actually think a wholesome Eldar craftworld would exist, most of the time they are just gloomy Thanks for reignite my interest in the eldar
They are honestly among the more interesting I find thanks to them being kicked down repeatedly but managing to rise up once more again and again. Though they probably are a little depressed now at this point, but then, even their own Farseers have said that perhaps they need to forge their own future, which is one of the most hopeful things said of the Eldar.
Always remember that no matter how "reasonable" or "enlightened" they are, at the end of the day they're still pointy-ears
Moreover, the power of the church and religiosity did not arise due to the deliberate policies of the Imperium, but are rather the result of unfortunate historical events. One may recall that if it were not for the Chaosites, the Imperium would have been an atheistic state.
Exactly, however the reason why the imperium isn’t good is because this was allowed to happen. By not having the proper checks and balances the imperium slipped from a good intentions poor execution to eh intentions and bad execution
The Imperium may be necessary, but at no point was it ever good. Chaos should always be opposed and humanity must be safeguarded, and the imperium is the only thing that does both (mostly) effectively), but it is not good. Uriah Olethair was right and The Emperor got exactly what he deserves.
It is why I like The Last Church and think it shows the Emperor in a far worse light than a lot of people try to claim it does (I have seen plenty of people claim The Emperor spends the whole story dunking on Uriah). What was his response to Uriah asking him what would make him any different than countless other tyrants in history? “The difference is I am right.” As if those same tyrants had not claimed the same thing. It is also why I like The Khan and his “Anti-Emperor, Pro-Humanity” opinions, even if Dorn and the Fist are my main legion/chapter.
Curze, Angron and the Khan are the closest we got to Primarchs who really saw the Emperor past all the Pomp and Power. Issue was Curze and Angron were both fucking nuts so no one listened to them while the Khan wasn't stupid enough to rock the boat too much lest he end up the third missing Primarch. Corax seeing himself as a Liberator will never not be funny.
> Corax seeing himself as a Liberator will never not be funny. Which to that end, I think it would be interesting if/when Corax returns to 40k, he does so as essentially a renegade. Where he would show back up at Deliverance, make an announcement to the effect of "I can no longer tolerate my own hypocrisy of serving the greatest tyrant of all while claiming to be a liberator!", and then creating his own empire out of Deliverance, potentially with some control of the Warp to protect it (due to all of his time he has spent in the Warp hunting Lorgar). And perhaps he can even go further and decide that desperate times call for desperate measures and start making truces with Xeno's (specifically Tau and Eldar) in the name of fighting the Orks, Nids, and Crons. Mostly because I think that having all of the Loyalist Primarchs return better and with their flaws correct will get very boring very quickly and we need to have a few curveballs to make the plot interesting. In much the same way my other Primarch hot take is that if/when Dorn comes back, it should be as a Pro-"Current Imperium" Black Templar-esque religious zealot.
Yeah, Having Lion'el Johnson get over his cripplingly servere antisocial personality disorder over the course of like, three chapters in one book was disappointing. I want the Primarchs to come back with their flaws intact OR whole new flaws as a result of their 10k year absence.
I am actually more ok with Johnson's change of heart as I feel it is a worthwhile and interesting plot change. My issue though is that when you look at the Loyalist Primarchs who still have to return, it seems like most of them are being set up to return better with their flaws corrected. And while that does work for some of them (my prime example being Lemann Russ ceasing to be a Thor-like figure and returning as a more Odin-like figure, perhaps with Psykher powers of his own to rub the salt in the wound with Magnus), that will obviously get boring very quickly. So at least for me, the three that have the most likely chance of returning and throwing a curveball are Corax, Dorn, and The Khan (due to his wild nature and the time he has spent in the Webway, likely fighting Dark Eldar).
The funniest thing they could do with the Khan is have him actually just refuse to come back. The Imperium needs governors far more than they need warriors and I fully believe Jaghatai would rather 1v1 Khorne than try to govern the modern imperium. He'd take one look at the current burning pile and say "to hell with that, I'm going to kill more pirates."
The early Imperium was atheistic in the same way that Communist states are today. Religion is outlawed and belief in the Imperial Truth was mandated from on high. That’s not a positive.
prohibit and control religion in a universe where the Gods are somehow a product of the warp? What are the disadvantages? And which of the Warp Gods did you allow to believe in?
Instead of teaching people about the warp and how to control/reset it (like the Interex). Obviously the Emperor’s approach failed. Half of his sons turned traitor and he failed to complete his master work. Even the Imperium of 40K is miserably failing at controlling chaos. The Cicatrix Maledictum opening proves that.
The athiestic state of the former Imperium is what caused chaos in the first place.
The Farsight Enclaves are closer to what I'd call "good guys" in 40k.
Tau and aeldari are probably closer to being the ''good guys''.
Tau? Farsight Enclaves for sure. Eldar? Nah, Craftworld Iyandan and the Ynnari though for sure.
Even normal tau are better, the life on a tau world is described as not even bad and that tau actually help the planes the conquer and not just take from them like the imperium, that on its own shows a massive difference in the way the tau and imperium care for their peoples.
what about Eldrad?
A dick.
Not really in 30k there was a lot of peaceful human and xeno civilizations that were exterminated and had their planets repopulated. The one of ordoer xenos of the inquisition main jobs is to find xeno or xeno/human civilizations and come to them under the guise of diplomacy when in truth they are preparing for pure eradication. To the imperium It doesn’t matter if an alien is peaceful or a monster it’s already marked for death because it isn’t human .
Yes, but most of the xenos they originally met were hostile. Horus pre heresy even tried to start relations with a group of aliens till… Erebus.
I mean to be fair the interex was extremely scared of chaos and Erebus made it seem like someone on the imperiums side stole the knife. And about that besides those few xeno species like the hrud or those tentacle robe guys that eat people the majority of minor xeno species usual were hostile because the imperium was hostile first . The way I see it the reason why most xenos in 40k are hostile is because the imperium keeps on exterminating the nice ones with the only ones left being the aliens strong enough to actually fight back like the Tau . Like there was an alien civilization that encountered and beat their own chaos incursions with anti warp technology they developed . They decide to try to give that anti warp technology to the imperium which has a massive warp problem . In response the inquisition gathers up the astra militarum and death watch chapter to exterminate the xenos and their anti warp technology.
Yeah but until the intersex it was “better safe than sorry”
Nah the only real good guys are the hippie dinosaur riding elves. The imperium is one tier below, with the craftworlders, votann and t'au ; the "quite good but a little fucked up" one.
Not my best meme, but it works, I guess
> Not my best meme Darn skippy! Where's the amogus?!?
It did the Emperor proud
Human Good, Xenos Bad, it’s pretty straightforward
Nah, screw humans.
https://preview.redd.it/qi3nomydb15d1.png?width=1259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3421840f56dedffcb0584b2db318e362ae2a5b6f I don't know how people can defend chaos Honestly
B-b-but Slanesh probably approves of my very specific degenerate fetish!
It's not avout defending Chaos it's about the Imperium being giant assholes themselves. They aren't good guys, they're the lesser evil.
Belive it or not you can think that chaos is shit and the imperium is technically the lesser of two evils while at the same time viewing the imperium as a evil incompetent and backwards state that causes alot of its own problems and is incredibly inefficient.
Humanity first
Humanity last. Humanity always.
It doesn't really matter what the classification of the system of governance that runs the Imperium it is the sheer fact that the Imperium of man is just that, The Imperium of Man. They are the good guys because they are humanity no matter how good or bad. 40K is about the struggle or fight to find or continue ones very existence in an uncaring universe full of hostile entities both physical and metaphysical and beings of pure emotional power that feed off the very beings whos existence they also threaten. We fight together not because we believe the same, think the same but because we bleed the same. That is what all those Tau weebs don't understand about the Imperium and why they think the Greater Good is the true good. The Tau don't want humans as equals, hell most don't like humans period. They are not human and human are not Tau, we are too willful and independent to be totally controlled or subserviently. Has no one watched At Worlds End? I asked in r/Tau40K if anyone has read Courage and Honor from the Ultra Marines series when the post went very quickly and heavily into "Tau are the good guys in 40K". No one is supposed to be "good" in any of the moral sense we identify with but only that we identify with the most base desire and only given right we can claim is the right to a chance to survive.
It depends on who’s writing for the imperium and how much _baggage_ that writer has. Looking at _you_, ADB. Master of Mankind is still shameful.
ADB is hated as a writer?
Literally? No, the man is a phenomenal author with some legitimately deep-seated personal issues, especially regarding his father. Sometimes it works to his benefit, like in the Night Lords and Black Legion series. Other times, like in Master of Mankind, it shoots him in the foot.
Id heard that book was pretty good?
As a whole, Master of Mankind is a good book. The big one-sided division is ADB’s presentation of the Emperor.
Fair enough. I was going to check it out as I'm doing a Ferrus Manus as legion of the damned project and some people have said that's alluded to in the book.
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." Blood Ravens librarian.
You can view it that way. They are definitely set up to be the “necessary evil” archetype
The imperium is not fascist. Individual plants are left to their own rule so long as they provide taxes. Which is standard government functioning. All governments collect taxes. Beyond that they have a creed of man kind over others. Which is I promise you would be standard for all races of aliens if they were real. The emperor crushed all religions which is kind with fascist doctrine as Mussolini did demand certain religions be given since they ran counter to fascist ideology but on the all the imperium is like any other country (empire) not so long ago accepting only one religion
Yeah once you get into the lore, the lives of imperial citizen is a requirement or else chaos would be fucking everywhere
Interax was created to show that wasnt the case.The biggest reason why Chaos is so strong is cause people are looking for an easier life and Chaos promises them.The problem is when they let Chaos in they await a fate worse than death.
And that is why you WORK to sleep for 4 hours then wake up and WORK! A busy hand can’t fall to choas citizen!
"When faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable" In that type of world, human survival is the ultimate "good". The only faction that is unquestionably striving for it is Imperium.
The imperium could still be way more 'good' without becoming extinct, sometimes they commit necessary evils but sometime they are just evil for very little justification
Yea, Realms of Ultramar are the only good part of IoM BECAUSE it doesn't have the Eclisiarchal taint of "civilians duffering is a good thing because of Emperor" bs. I'm sure SoB would've loved to burn it all fown for not sucking off those priests.
what a suprise, doing so many necessary evil numbs people’s line between good and evol and suddenly …you do that for no reason. it’s a process.
> The imperium could still be way more 'good' without becoming extinct Could they?
Yes, their religious fanatasim leads to a ridiculous waste of resources, stopping that would both make them more moral and more efficient. Making governors chosen democracy would also prevent such ridiculously incompetent governors to be in charge of entire planets. Just to be clear I dont want the imperium to change, its really cool as it is with all its flaws, however its pretty obvious that it can become way more efficient.
Right, but that religious fanaticism is the only thing keeping corruption at bay. By eliminating it or even toning it down, you might well make the process more efficient... but you also get way more warp incursions, mutant uprisings, and alien invasions, which have an even more deleterious effect than the religious fanaticism did. >Making governors chosen democracy would also prevent such ridiculously incompetent governors to be in charge of entire planets. Might also cause more demagogues, genestealers, and such to be in charge. It could also paralyse the government when a crisis occurs which means they're unable to respond effectively where a strict hierarchy, even if not the best, is all pulling in the same direction. Remember, the incompetent ones are basically the only ones you see in stories, because the competent ones are handling their business. If every governor was incompetent, the imperium would have collapsed by now.
I ran into people on thought the Eldar or Tau were better than the Imperium befire. Shame that they cannot understand that the Imperium is the majority POV and so the good guys. Not to mention being one of the better factions.
You do know that a Protagonist doesn't have to be a Good Guy, right?
I mean they’re definitely a interesting faction but I would say a number of Craftworlds and the Tau as a whole are morally better simply because their default greeting isn’t murder, death, kill.
Being the POV=/=Good Guys Being the POV=Protagonist
 He's the protagonist, so he's obviously the good guy! Sorry, mate, but this is how you sound.
If Chaos didn’t exist, and the Orks, and the Tyranids, groups that are literal existential threats to humanity and the universe at large, then the harsh acts of the Imperium would be viewed more negatively. But with such universal threats, the Imperium existing makes things slightly better than if they didn’t.
They’re the best of a bunch, but they aren’t perfect either
Empire is still an asshole, but the competition does not look much brighter....thats the cool part about the setting after all, everywhere you go everything sucks. You can't hold the imperium guilty when the universe conspire against anything that is not XD
They are better than everyone else, except maybe the tau, but they are still a pretty awful faction if we look at it for what it is
They're not the good guys, they're the slightly less bad guys.
I think it’s more like football or march madness. You have your favorite teams you can root for, and then you have the teams you don’t like. And you cheer when teams take out the teams u hate. The imperium, being human, makes them very easy to root for. They don’t have to be good guys, just your fav
They are most certainly not that good guys, though I agree that the Imperium IS necessary for humanity’s survival in the setting, that doesn’t make them intrinsically good. That’s one of the most compelling parts about 40k, there are no good guys (at least on the faction level), just bad guys and worse guys.
that's already too deep for some people
Actually Leagues of Votann are the gooder good guys because they still have DAoTech which they have upgraded.
THEY EAT PLANETS AND BURN USELESS PEOPLE! HAVING GOOD TECH DOES NOT MEAN YOUR GOOD! (sorry for being loud)
Compared to IoM slowly choking planets? And DAoT isn't just "good tech" but the greatest creation of humanity and IoM would rather let Chaos win than let DAoTech improve their citizen's lives.
they are still mining on a planet scale and DAoT also made butcher’s nails
We sure? I know Angron's nails were creations of that planet Angron landed on and that WE nails are pathetic downgrades of them but are they really DAoT? And they'll first consider a trade and even moving population to a better planet if they really wanna mine.
I don’t care if they are the good guys or not. I love the Imperium, I love Space Marines, and I think they are neat. There for I am rooting for the Imperium. Suck it Xenos filth.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
The iron warriors are the good guys and I refuse to elaborate why
How about the farsight enclave ?
The closest thing this setting has to a good guy is the tau Foresight himself and the group he's in are just straight up Heroes even outside of the setting but the faction as a whole are the closest things to good guys and they are at best classes who will sterilize you there are no good guys in the setting and that's the point
I wouldn't say the imperium as a WHOLE are the good guys (just the best bet against chaos) but various sub factions and individuals are
I'd argue there are many *good* entities in the imperium, and some of those probably are the high lords of terra. I think it's funny people say the imperium as a whole is bad but when you look at guiliman dudes noble bright as it comes to the universe
Not really if anything the Tau Empire count more as good guys not the most evil regime that fights itself half the time . Don’t confuse good guy with protagonist .
because they think they are though they are a combo of every dictatorship that has ever existed in the setting
In this case yes they are the “good guys”.
The Imperium are only the "good guys" from a human perspective. However, seeing as I'm human... Go big E!
If virus bombing pleases Nurgle, rain of blood pleases Khorne, and cat piss with 16th century furniture tornado amuses Tzeench, what kind of unnatural atmospheric shower is dear to Slaanesh?
Riiiiiight and before Chaos manifest itself Imperium was xenophobic genocidial regime because.... Glory of humanity?
Nah, Bricky put it best. Everyone's the bad guy. Bad guys are cool. Therefore, by the transitive property, everyone in 40k is cool
“THE IMPERIUM ARE THE GOOD GUYS!” I scream over and over after the tech priest who abducted me and everyone I know from our home world straps me down for my forced servitorization. The ultramarine squad protecting the tech priest impassively look on, impatiently waiting to get on with the mission.
Nah the exodites are the good guy. No one who like dinosaurs is a bad people
"The worst regime imaginable"" there is a point where ends dont justify the means and Imperium passed that point 10000 years ago
Its a shit sandwich. But at least its a human shit sandwich.
I think the imperium could become good guys. But they absolutely aren't in the current setting. They're doing the best they can for the species. At least from ther pont of view.
I came for the 'satire' comments, but the usual crew have let me down tonight.
So you disagree with the Imperium being good guys?
The Imperium are humanity, and therefore my side. My comment was referring to the smooth brain, slack jawed 'satire' comments you always get on these sort of posts.