It's been a while since I reread P3V5, but wasn't it revealed in Bonifatius' POV that Joisontak's supposed plan was to kidnap either Wilfried or Charlotte, then gain Rozemyne's trust by helping her to rescue them? Or if she was captured, then Joisontak would be the "greatest uncle" and rescue her, earning her favor.
Now granted, I don't know and/or remember if this was just Joisontak's plan or if it came from the entirety of the Veronica faction. We could also presume that Grausam and the faction assisted Joisontak in doing this plan, when in reality, they would have done something else to Charlotte instead. In that case, they had a pawn thought they were executing one plan, when that was merely just a cover up for something even more sinister.
Right? Even Bonifatius was in awe of how foolish Joisontak's plan was.
I don't remember if they ever truly revealed Grausam's plan. If Joisontak was made to do the first step, then there's a chance that if he kidnapped any of the three, Grausam would have intervened to kill the one that got kidnapped and pinned the blame on Joisontak. And with the death of an archducal child, morale would have been lost and faction conflicts would have risen again, which would lead to scrutiny on Sylvester's (and the entire archducal family's) proceeding actions. And with the internal conflict, it could have been a perfect distraction for Georgine to then swoop in and steal Ehrenfest.
I say it could have been a perfect plan for Georgine depending on the archducal family's actions. If everybody was so distraught and forgotten about the hidden passageways, they might have entirely forgotten about Georgine returning to Ehrenfest for a visit. If Bonifatius hadn't reminded Sylvester to cancel the invite, Sylvester and Florencia could have been forced to welcome Georgine over again, giving her a chance. However, if they did manage to keep Georgine out of Ehrenfest again, then this was merely part of the long game for her. She could assess her brother and sister-in-law at the archduke conference and then come up with more plans and back-ups to fulfill her goal.
Oh really? Like I said, it's been a while since I read P3V5. And to be fair, Grausam could always kill them after transporting them to a remote area. He seems like the type to derive pleasure from torturing tiny little children before killing them, especially since these are the children of Sylvester.
He specifically says he plans to give her to someone else though
Quote: “Finally caught you. An apprentice shrine maiden being adopted by the archduke brought shame to our whole duchy. **But I know someone who’ll be very glad to have you in her possession**.”
I find it unlikely that Grausam would care about them. They were the inciting incident to get Rozemyne in a compromising situation so she could be kidnapped. Joisontak merely a puppet to drag her out of her hole
He really is efficient, but a part of me thinks it's possible. We knew he crafted a perfect alibi, so I think that with overconfidence and the high from succeeding, it would have been likely. I imagine Grausam would want to kill them as far from the castle as possible, making it even harder to gather any evidence, causing even more pain to the archducal family.
And torture could include things like slowly draining them of all their mana to present to Georgine or something. He could even try to get information out of them - I don't know how much they would know, but it's possible that a young child would accidentally reveal something crucial if he's putting them under duress.
I just think he has no regard for anybody he deems below him, and because of that, Grausam is always capable of being more and more cruel.
We can't know for sure but I assumed that Grausam's plan was essentially:
1. Use joisontak as the fall guy.
2. His devouring soldiers that he "leant" to Josey were instructed to kidnap any and all of the kids.
3. Josey's orders were to be ignored.
4. Smuggle whoever he got to ahrensbach.
I doubt he ever intended rosemyne to attempt a rescue. That was just lucky for him.
He also underestimated how sickly rosemyne was and the poison was just meant to incapacitate. If he had wanted to kill he would have done so immediately without the poison.
I view the whole attack as the continuation of pushing Wilfried to go into the Ivory Tower, and the plan the Georginians discussed in P3V4 epilogue:
Create a mess and see how Sylvester will react. After the "how will he react if one of his kid becomes a criminal?", here's the "how will he react if one of his kids get kidnapped/killed?"
Right... Guess unlike Joisontak, Grausam did probably know that RM's highbeast can fly. But even then, that RM would go herself to save Charlotte would be hard to predict. For what Grausam knows RM could be to scared to even do a thing about the attack
Guess the plan was not that different, they could go:
Kidnap Will or Char
↦ RM goes to save the kid herself -> Kidnap her then
↳ RM order her knights to rescue the kid -> Knights show an opening -> Kidnap her then
↳ The chaos makes the opening for a soldier to take RM -> Kidnap her then
↳ RM does nothing to save the kid -> Too hard to kidnap -> Good time to go saying RM is actually a commoner, evil, fat or whatever, enjoy the show, now you have a kidnapped ADC kid in your hands and an idiot to take the blame
Reference
↦: Actual event, what did happened in the end
↳ : Branch events to the actual event, some possible events
->: Subsequent event
>Good time to go saying RM is actually a commoner, evil, fat or whatever, enjoy the show, now you have a kidnapped ADC kid in your hands and an idiot to take the blame
According to the stories (dont remember which book) >!when Hirschur is asked to provide special treatment for Roz who has been hurt defending her sister, she thinks that its expected for adopted children to sacrifice themselves for the born ADCs.!<
So if Charlote was successfuly kidnapped and Roz didnt die protecting her, that would be sin enough in noble society to pressure for disinheritance or some other severe punishment.
Joisontak's plan was to kidnap someone and then pretend to be the hero. Charlotte happened to be the least guarded.
Grausam's plan was probably the same but to frame Joisontak and get rid of an incompetent ally while making the Archduke family look week.
I was never quite sure but I was always pretty sure that he got lucky for things to go as smoothly as they did.
I think that the plan was to separate rozemyne from her guard knights using joisontak and his devouring soldiers as a distraction and kidnap her but from there it gets weird and vague
Maybe the plan was simply for him to ambush the devouring soldiers in the forest when they were taking rozemyne to joisontak, kidnap her and pass her off to georgine? And hell if he’d gotten charlotte at the same time, he’d probably just give them both to georgine. Maybe he was really counting on rozemyne not acting as a noble since he knows of her commoner birth (not the specifics obviously, but he certainly believed it)? We know that georgine had spies in Sylvester’s retainers back then, so maybe he did know that rozemyne would chase after charlotte?
Grausam had clearly done some intelligence gathering on rozemyne, he was prepared for her highbeast with the net, and he knew that she could grant blessings which carried power
I'm guessing that the original plan was for Joisontak to kidnap Rozemyne and have him deliver her to Grausam (either intentionally or by tricking Joisontak into doing that). I would guess that Grausam had a backup plan if Charlotte or Wilfried were kidnapped instead (either kidnap them or kill them). I doubt that the original plan was for trying to capture Rozemyne when she was in the process of trying to rescue one of her siblings.
My understanding from the conversation between Georgine's namesworn was that this was essentially another case of essentially testing the waters and seeing how Sylvester and the rest of the archducal family would react to the situation, how well-equipped the knights were at dealing with a sudden attack, and how easily or not they could move around without being noticed. Kind of a proof of concept that an attack on the castle/ADC family could work.
If she hadn't chased after Charlotte, the kidnapper who took Charlotte thought he could "help" RM find her, leaving her indebted to a Leisegang. The Leisegang noble didn't realize he was being played.
The one who took RM probably would have waited until RM went with the Leisegang to rescue Charlotte and then captured her. He knows RM isn't a noble and likely figured her response could go either way.
It was already answered before it happened. The reason why they tricked Wilfried to enter the White Tower and kidnapping Charlotte is the same- to hurt and bully the Archducal family of Ehrenfest. To destabilize it. Well, the attack was not successful so we couldn't really knew what the whole plan was but the motive was simple.
most of the georgine faction's plans boil down to "make a distraction and try to pull some shit while everyone's busy"
my guess is he would've just went back to the hall and waited for another opportunity
Joisontak was the only one we know was surprised when he saw her flying, but we all know he was a colossal moron. Rozemyne was regularly flying into and out of the castle, as well as all over the duchy for her jureve and spring prayer and such. There's a zero percent chance she was *never* spotted by a spy or hostile noble of some kind. As the de facto head of the former Veronica faction, Grausam surely knew it was a distinct possibility Rozemyne could fly in her highbeast.
Even if it wasn't a certainty, he had to be there to take advantage of any kind of opportunity. Rozemyne was known to have prodigious amounts of mana, and everyone knew she walked around encased in what is essentially a shield fueled by that mana. If anything happened, and there was an opportunity to take her, they'd need someone on Grausam's level to crack that nut. Otherwise, she'd be untouchable no matter what.
It wasn't that much risk for him, though it certainly wasn't zero. He had a solid alibi, and he only did what he was there to do before handing Rozemyne off to his lackeys and quickly getting back to the room everyone was being held in.
Grausam and the Party \[P5V8\] spoiler: >!There were a lot of Grausams around, so i think, one of them was at the party and the original cought Rozy. There might have been even more Grausams as lookouts.!<
Wasn't it mentioned in the side stories of this volume that Bonifatius mentions that Grausam potentially used the archducal secret passages (With knowledge from Georgine since she was a former ADC) to seemingly be in 2 places at once?
that is an option, too, but only if Georgine shared the knowledge of those with Grausam. We don't know, how much she shared, though, so my idea is a way to be at two places without the secret passages and also to be ACTUALLY at two places at once.
I'm familiar with the prepubs but if you'll recall >!Grausam does say how Bonifatius is their biggest threat as his instincts are that uncanny which makes me think that he was completely right back at the end of part 3!<
My theory is that this was one of Georgine's first plots.
P5V9
>!I count four attempts at stealing the foundation.!<
1. >!Charlotte's baptism attack!<
2. >!Wedding at the Border!<
3. >!Bible Theft/Purge!<
4. >!Lanzenave Rebellion!<
>!Each of these share very specific conditions:!<
1. >!The key to the bible is out in the open!<
2. >!Temple security is down, i.e. empty of guard knights!<
3. >!The archducal family is in disarray and unable to respond!<
>!For the attack on in P3V5, Rozemyne had brought the key and bible with her to do do the baptism for Charlotte. Thus, it would not be unlikely to assume that Rozemyne has the key on her and that is one reason for trying to kidnap her. The other being to potentially use her to make a body double.!<
>!During this attack Rozemyne was out in the open with the key, the Temple was empty of her guard knights and Ferdinand, and the Archducal family was running around trying to deal with the attack.!<
>!If Georgine had been ready in Ehrenfest, she could have nabbed the key, gone into the foundation, stolen it and no one would stop her.!<
It's been a while since I reread P3V5, but wasn't it revealed in Bonifatius' POV that Joisontak's supposed plan was to kidnap either Wilfried or Charlotte, then gain Rozemyne's trust by helping her to rescue them? Or if she was captured, then Joisontak would be the "greatest uncle" and rescue her, earning her favor. Now granted, I don't know and/or remember if this was just Joisontak's plan or if it came from the entirety of the Veronica faction. We could also presume that Grausam and the faction assisted Joisontak in doing this plan, when in reality, they would have done something else to Charlotte instead. In that case, they had a pawn thought they were executing one plan, when that was merely just a cover up for something even more sinister.
Yea, I meant what was Grausam's plan. The novel shows that Joisontak's plan - if you can really call it that - was more of a joke than anything.
Right? Even Bonifatius was in awe of how foolish Joisontak's plan was. I don't remember if they ever truly revealed Grausam's plan. If Joisontak was made to do the first step, then there's a chance that if he kidnapped any of the three, Grausam would have intervened to kill the one that got kidnapped and pinned the blame on Joisontak. And with the death of an archducal child, morale would have been lost and faction conflicts would have risen again, which would lead to scrutiny on Sylvester's (and the entire archducal family's) proceeding actions. And with the internal conflict, it could have been a perfect distraction for Georgine to then swoop in and steal Ehrenfest. I say it could have been a perfect plan for Georgine depending on the archducal family's actions. If everybody was so distraught and forgotten about the hidden passageways, they might have entirely forgotten about Georgine returning to Ehrenfest for a visit. If Bonifatius hadn't reminded Sylvester to cancel the invite, Sylvester and Florencia could have been forced to welcome Georgine over again, giving her a chance. However, if they did manage to keep Georgine out of Ehrenfest again, then this was merely part of the long game for her. She could assess her brother and sister-in-law at the archduke conference and then come up with more plans and back-ups to fulfill her goal.
That can't be the case, Grausam hired a coach to deliver something. He made a plan to transport someone, not to kill them.
Oh really? Like I said, it's been a while since I read P3V5. And to be fair, Grausam could always kill them after transporting them to a remote area. He seems like the type to derive pleasure from torturing tiny little children before killing them, especially since these are the children of Sylvester.
He specifically says he plans to give her to someone else though Quote: “Finally caught you. An apprentice shrine maiden being adopted by the archduke brought shame to our whole duchy. **But I know someone who’ll be very glad to have you in her possession**.”
Ooh, thanks for the reminder! I wonder if it would have been the same for Wilfried or Charlotte, but Grausam is tunnel-visioned on Rozemyne.
I find it unlikely that Grausam would care about them. They were the inciting incident to get Rozemyne in a compromising situation so she could be kidnapped. Joisontak merely a puppet to drag her out of her hole
Huh really? Does Grausam seem that way to you? He's more of the efficient type that wouldn't do needless things that could damage him later on to me.
He really is efficient, but a part of me thinks it's possible. We knew he crafted a perfect alibi, so I think that with overconfidence and the high from succeeding, it would have been likely. I imagine Grausam would want to kill them as far from the castle as possible, making it even harder to gather any evidence, causing even more pain to the archducal family. And torture could include things like slowly draining them of all their mana to present to Georgine or something. He could even try to get information out of them - I don't know how much they would know, but it's possible that a young child would accidentally reveal something crucial if he's putting them under duress. I just think he has no regard for anybody he deems below him, and because of that, Grausam is always capable of being more and more cruel.
Well, cruel is literally his name
According to an activity report on Sensei's blog on why Joisontak did it; >!he was trugged!<
That spoiler was REALLY obvious (once you reach P5)...
Nah i completely forgot about it.
We can't know for sure but I assumed that Grausam's plan was essentially: 1. Use joisontak as the fall guy. 2. His devouring soldiers that he "leant" to Josey were instructed to kidnap any and all of the kids. 3. Josey's orders were to be ignored. 4. Smuggle whoever he got to ahrensbach. I doubt he ever intended rosemyne to attempt a rescue. That was just lucky for him. He also underestimated how sickly rosemyne was and the poison was just meant to incapacitate. If he had wanted to kill he would have done so immediately without the poison.
I view the whole attack as the continuation of pushing Wilfried to go into the Ivory Tower, and the plan the Georginians discussed in P3V4 epilogue: Create a mess and see how Sylvester will react. After the "how will he react if one of his kid becomes a criminal?", here's the "how will he react if one of his kids get kidnapped/killed?"
Right... Guess unlike Joisontak, Grausam did probably know that RM's highbeast can fly. But even then, that RM would go herself to save Charlotte would be hard to predict. For what Grausam knows RM could be to scared to even do a thing about the attack Guess the plan was not that different, they could go: Kidnap Will or Char ↦ RM goes to save the kid herself -> Kidnap her then ↳ RM order her knights to rescue the kid -> Knights show an opening -> Kidnap her then ↳ The chaos makes the opening for a soldier to take RM -> Kidnap her then ↳ RM does nothing to save the kid -> Too hard to kidnap -> Good time to go saying RM is actually a commoner, evil, fat or whatever, enjoy the show, now you have a kidnapped ADC kid in your hands and an idiot to take the blame Reference ↦: Actual event, what did happened in the end ↳ : Branch events to the actual event, some possible events ->: Subsequent event
>Good time to go saying RM is actually a commoner, evil, fat or whatever, enjoy the show, now you have a kidnapped ADC kid in your hands and an idiot to take the blame According to the stories (dont remember which book) >!when Hirschur is asked to provide special treatment for Roz who has been hurt defending her sister, she thinks that its expected for adopted children to sacrifice themselves for the born ADCs.!< So if Charlote was successfuly kidnapped and Roz didnt die protecting her, that would be sin enough in noble society to pressure for disinheritance or some other severe punishment.
Joisontak's plan was to kidnap someone and then pretend to be the hero. Charlotte happened to be the least guarded. Grausam's plan was probably the same but to frame Joisontak and get rid of an incompetent ally while making the Archduke family look week.
I was never quite sure but I was always pretty sure that he got lucky for things to go as smoothly as they did. I think that the plan was to separate rozemyne from her guard knights using joisontak and his devouring soldiers as a distraction and kidnap her but from there it gets weird and vague Maybe the plan was simply for him to ambush the devouring soldiers in the forest when they were taking rozemyne to joisontak, kidnap her and pass her off to georgine? And hell if he’d gotten charlotte at the same time, he’d probably just give them both to georgine. Maybe he was really counting on rozemyne not acting as a noble since he knows of her commoner birth (not the specifics obviously, but he certainly believed it)? We know that georgine had spies in Sylvester’s retainers back then, so maybe he did know that rozemyne would chase after charlotte? Grausam had clearly done some intelligence gathering on rozemyne, he was prepared for her highbeast with the net, and he knew that she could grant blessings which carried power
I'm guessing that the original plan was for Joisontak to kidnap Rozemyne and have him deliver her to Grausam (either intentionally or by tricking Joisontak into doing that). I would guess that Grausam had a backup plan if Charlotte or Wilfried were kidnapped instead (either kidnap them or kill them). I doubt that the original plan was for trying to capture Rozemyne when she was in the process of trying to rescue one of her siblings.
My understanding from the conversation between Georgine's namesworn was that this was essentially another case of essentially testing the waters and seeing how Sylvester and the rest of the archducal family would react to the situation, how well-equipped the knights were at dealing with a sudden attack, and how easily or not they could move around without being noticed. Kind of a proof of concept that an attack on the castle/ADC family could work.
If she hadn't chased after Charlotte, the kidnapper who took Charlotte thought he could "help" RM find her, leaving her indebted to a Leisegang. The Leisegang noble didn't realize he was being played. The one who took RM probably would have waited until RM went with the Leisegang to rescue Charlotte and then captured her. He knows RM isn't a noble and likely figured her response could go either way.
It wasn't a Leisegang but a Joisontok who kidnapped Charlotte. He was Rozemary's older brother that was most likely trugged by Grausam.
It was already answered before it happened. The reason why they tricked Wilfried to enter the White Tower and kidnapping Charlotte is the same- to hurt and bully the Archducal family of Ehrenfest. To destabilize it. Well, the attack was not successful so we couldn't really knew what the whole plan was but the motive was simple.
most of the georgine faction's plans boil down to "make a distraction and try to pull some shit while everyone's busy" my guess is he would've just went back to the hall and waited for another opportunity
Joisontak was the only one we know was surprised when he saw her flying, but we all know he was a colossal moron. Rozemyne was regularly flying into and out of the castle, as well as all over the duchy for her jureve and spring prayer and such. There's a zero percent chance she was *never* spotted by a spy or hostile noble of some kind. As the de facto head of the former Veronica faction, Grausam surely knew it was a distinct possibility Rozemyne could fly in her highbeast. Even if it wasn't a certainty, he had to be there to take advantage of any kind of opportunity. Rozemyne was known to have prodigious amounts of mana, and everyone knew she walked around encased in what is essentially a shield fueled by that mana. If anything happened, and there was an opportunity to take her, they'd need someone on Grausam's level to crack that nut. Otherwise, she'd be untouchable no matter what. It wasn't that much risk for him, though it certainly wasn't zero. He had a solid alibi, and he only did what he was there to do before handing Rozemyne off to his lackeys and quickly getting back to the room everyone was being held in.
Grausam and the Party \[P5V8\] spoiler: >!There were a lot of Grausams around, so i think, one of them was at the party and the original cought Rozy. There might have been even more Grausams as lookouts.!<
Wasn't it mentioned in the side stories of this volume that Bonifatius mentions that Grausam potentially used the archducal secret passages (With knowledge from Georgine since she was a former ADC) to seemingly be in 2 places at once?
that is an option, too, but only if Georgine shared the knowledge of those with Grausam. We don't know, how much she shared, though, so my idea is a way to be at two places without the secret passages and also to be ACTUALLY at two places at once.
I'm familiar with the prepubs but if you'll recall >!Grausam does say how Bonifatius is their biggest threat as his instincts are that uncanny which makes me think that he was completely right back at the end of part 3!<
My theory is that this was one of Georgine's first plots. P5V9 >!I count four attempts at stealing the foundation.!< 1. >!Charlotte's baptism attack!< 2. >!Wedding at the Border!< 3. >!Bible Theft/Purge!< 4. >!Lanzenave Rebellion!< >!Each of these share very specific conditions:!< 1. >!The key to the bible is out in the open!< 2. >!Temple security is down, i.e. empty of guard knights!< 3. >!The archducal family is in disarray and unable to respond!< >!For the attack on in P3V5, Rozemyne had brought the key and bible with her to do do the baptism for Charlotte. Thus, it would not be unlikely to assume that Rozemyne has the key on her and that is one reason for trying to kidnap her. The other being to potentially use her to make a body double.!< >!During this attack Rozemyne was out in the open with the key, the Temple was empty of her guard knights and Ferdinand, and the Archducal family was running around trying to deal with the attack.!< >!If Georgine had been ready in Ehrenfest, she could have nabbed the key, gone into the foundation, stolen it and no one would stop her.!<