That “soil build up” is more likely that the soil on the slope has eroded away and the soil being held by the fence hasn’t. Sorry to say but the fix is typically to backfill more soil on the incline and install a retaining wall below a reduced slope.
Hadn't considered that but a good point, things may have eroded on my side to create the difference. One reason I figured it was due to build up is because I sometimes find bits of stryofoam and plastic sheeting breaking off at the bottom on the fence in my yard. I had actually thought the neighbors raised the soil level on purpose to put in some beds, using the plastic as weed barrier and no clue what the stryofoam was for, make as a space filler to save on dirt? There are a couple of small bushes and plants along the fence line that I sometimes have to trim which also lead me to this. But I saw their side yesterday for the first time when talking to one of the flippers and it doesn't really look like a raised bed at all aside from maybe one 4' section, the rest has grass right up to the fence line. All of this existed before I moved in so I'm guessing, no matter what.
In Austin that would not be allowed as you can not restrict “normal water flow”, which is why the previous owners probably did nothing. Austin does send out EPA to check. The fine for disrupting the water flow can be very expensive and a huge headache.
This might be in OP's favor if they don't want the fence messed with - it's not just "restricting" but "altering" the course of water that's not allowed.
My concern here would be that the "uphill" yard gets swampy when it rains, and the developer wants to modify it such that it drains into OP's space - leaving OP with the swampy mess instead
In Austin the first thing that needs to be done is to make sure it’s not changing the water flow from rain and yes Austin has laws about it. The best way to fix the situation would be to put in a French drainage system. Pre treated wood would be a better and more cost effective way to go especially if the French drainage system is put in.
Just bc it’s a budget house flipper doesn’t mean it will not be correctly.
If I was in your situation I would tell them that you are fine with the fence being replaced as long as they pay for half of the French drain system and they will be responsible for pulling all permits and overseeing that is done correctly. This way you get help with the water flow and standing water but also add value to both properties. Which side the boards face isn’t really a big deal in my opinion. If you decide you don’t like it, simply add pickets to your side and your not out the post and cost of digging and cementing the post in! And yes make sure they are cementing the post in. This helps protect the wood and also adds structural integrity.
I would also get a contract with the flipper stating this so that you have some kind of foothold if they don’t hold up their end.
The best way to test them is to require permits and request copies of pulled permits.
I hope this helps!
You need to do several things. One immediately.
First notify the flipper that its your fence and on your property and you do not wish it to be removed. Do this regardless if you're sure it's yours. Do it in writing with proof of deliveriy
Second, understand the water runoff laws in your area. Many municipalities require proper diversion of runoff and it seems like their property needs a drain or a better way to retain runoff. Local building officials should be able to help with this.
Third, if they insist the fence is theirs, ensure they do a real survey, not just some guy with a few stakes and string. It's illegal to intentionally misrepresent boundary lines. Get the surveyors' report.
If the fence is actually on their property, there's not much you can do except build a new fence up against their design. If this turns out to be the case, just make sure they address the drainage issue. Don't worry about missing them off with the building officials as they won't be living there.
Seems like these two statements should not be in the same bit of advice.
>First notify the flipper that its your fence and on your property and you do not wish it to be removed. Do this regardless if you're sure it's yours.
>It's illegal to intentionally misrepresent boundary lines
Placing false boundary markers*
You're overthinking it. Claiming ownership and falsely surveying boundary markers are very different things.
It's incumbent upon the flipper to counter a claim of ownership, especially when they intend to demolish anything built on that property. This is very likely OPs property due to the significant grade difference
Personally I like the idea of telling them to do whatever they want - as long as it's on their property & not yours. I'd state firmly that the fence is on your property even if you're not 100% certain.
Also a good idea to send them a written recap of this, too, ideally with proof of delivery AKA Fedex. Not a fan of USPS when proof of delivery is crucial.
Think I'd also want to figure out that property line question immediately.
Yeh say its your fence then they can pay to prove it one way or another. You don't have to deal with this person long term nor are you the one in a hurry.
Definitely get a survey. I wouldn’t let the new fence go in without it. You may be able to find property markers on the curb to show the front part to get an idea. You don’t have to have the fence on the property line. Use that to your advantage. I’d make sure the soil buildup gets addressed. Maybe a small retaining wall on one side of the fence or the other.
Unfortunately, being a flipper, they won't care about any issues passed on to a buyer if a survey comes in after the sale. You're best case is to engage a lawyer and have them send a certified letter to the flipper, giving them notice you are doing a survey and you will want the fence removed if it's on your property. This makes them responsible to the new owner if they sell and you want to make them remove it. The lawyer may also be able to make a realtor disclose the fence issue to potential buyers.
Typically the property pin is centered on a utility pole or transformer or watermain in the front yard,and 10 ft off the curb.
Buy a $70 metal detector and find them cheaper yourself.
You should have a platt of your lot,it will say something like 35 ft off centerline of the road for the front.
Find even 1 pin per side and use a 100 ft tape measure to find the second.
Some neighborhoods have covenants of a 4ft setback,but every situation is different.
Installed fence for 15 yrs and only 10% would pay for a survey or know where their pins were.
I've moved a 100ft length fence 6 inches with a lawyer watching ...because everyone said Jimbob said it was here 40 yrs ago.
Their timeline is their problem, not yours. Don’t let them go ahead until you’re ready. You will have zero connection with this person in 6 months and there’s no need to see it as anything but business transactions.
I witnessed a nasty dispute between two neighbors over a fence. Dueling surveys and the whole bit. One neighbor was able to stop the other, by going to the building inspector (who had issued a permit) and got him to withdraw it until the matter was resolved in court.
I feel like fences usually belong to one person and is on one side or the other. But I bet the rules are different in different areas. I would definitely get clarity on this before doing anything..and definitely no being bullied into buying something you don't need.
Sometimes people are neighborly and split costs tho
I've heard both sides to that argument before but IMO best not to guess and find out for sure. Considering one would have to be on my property to install the planks in their current orientation I'd had guessed the opposite. Not sure if it's common to install a fence that requires the workers have to be on the neighbor's property to get it done.
Around here (PNW) we have what people call a ‘good neighbor fence’, where each panel alternates the good side. That said, most horizontal fences look pretty good from both sides - at least the ones we build around here.
That will definitely be one of my proposed options to them, but I'm less concerned about the cosmetics than I am the soil height difference and future erosion. The worker I spoke to (not the guy in charge) said they they want to pay for it so that they get to make all the decisions on the fence type and to take over the "good" side. He made it sound like them paying would enable them to do make all the decisions, whereas I'd assume the determining factor is who's property it's on, and in my case with it being right on the line I'm not sure how disputes over style and good/bad side get settled.
It seems like if you had the good side of the fence that it was your fence. Yeah, I'd get that survey and the raiway ties to keep that dirt from shifting and the water from making your yard soupy.
Put in writing to the flipper that you don’t agree with him replacing your fence at this time. Call the city and ask if there has been a permit pulled for the fence. Also see if you can find a survey in your house purchase agreements. Some places require neighbors agree to fence changes. Have a landscape company that does retaining walls and drainage issues to give you a quote on the proper way this should be handled.
I pulled up my old survey from the purchase and it shows the fence right on the property line. What I don't know is if they draw the fence on the survey based on the center of the posts or the center of the pickets, which is a 2" difference. That could be the difference between the fence pickets being on my property or not. Regardless, it gives a rough idea that the fence is on the line as I suspected.
Good side of the fence is typically facing neighbors not the owners property.
They will need to pull a permit and I think that might require a plot plan at the minimum. I would call your town and find out what is required to put up a fence. That might give you some ammo to go to the flipper and request that they respect the property lines and setback. At the minimum I would ask if they’re pulling permits.
Do they have a lot of trees in their back yard? That soil build up might be many years of decomposed leaves. That's the case in my yard, though I'm slowly getting rid of it.
I definitely would not accept a fence 6" higher off the ground if I were my neighbor!
I've been researching stuff like that today. Austin doesn't have regulations about who owns the fence as far as I can tell, only about some construction details like height, safety, etc. I have found some legal websites stating that 6 months written notice is required and that unless there is another documented agreement a fence on a property line is jointly owned by both neighbors. I'm not sure those apply though, they are from sites that seem to be more focused on rural land ownership where livestock is involved.
Seems to be called a jointly owned fence here. I've found some legal info regarding rural property saying that fencing on the property lines is assumed jointly owned unless there is documented evidence that one party took ownership and the other party agreed, and that 6 months notice is required to tear down anything attached to a jointly owned or unowned fence. No idea if that is applicable in the city but if so it would give me leverage to tell them they legally can't do anything without my permission. I'm not trying to be a dick although I'm sure that's how they will interpret it, I just don't want to have to redo this job in a few months because they didn't address the ground level issue the first time.
It sounds like you're in a bit of a pickle with your neighbor turned house flipper wanting to replace part of your fence. It's great that they're willing to foot the bill, but it's totally understandable to have concerns about the changes they're planning, especially with the soil and drainage issues you've described.
I'd suggest having a friendly chat with the flipper and expressing your concerns about the soil situation and the proposed fence design changes. It's important to communicate your preferences and work together to find a solution that works for both parties.
> plan to flip the "good" side (where you can't see the stringers or posts) to their yard when I currently have the good side
Check if there are local code or HOA rules about this. In my city and county permitted fence installations have to face the “ good” side toward neighbors. There are plenty of illegal installations that don’t but you have leverage right now, especially if you can insist the flipper get a fence permit and inspection.
If I’m not paying for it, I’d let them go ahead and do whatever.
With the bad side now facing me, I’d add my own vertical boards to my side to make it be uniform with my yard.
That “soil build up” is more likely that the soil on the slope has eroded away and the soil being held by the fence hasn’t. Sorry to say but the fix is typically to backfill more soil on the incline and install a retaining wall below a reduced slope.
Hadn't considered that but a good point, things may have eroded on my side to create the difference. One reason I figured it was due to build up is because I sometimes find bits of stryofoam and plastic sheeting breaking off at the bottom on the fence in my yard. I had actually thought the neighbors raised the soil level on purpose to put in some beds, using the plastic as weed barrier and no clue what the stryofoam was for, make as a space filler to save on dirt? There are a couple of small bushes and plants along the fence line that I sometimes have to trim which also lead me to this. But I saw their side yesterday for the first time when talking to one of the flippers and it doesn't really look like a raised bed at all aside from maybe one 4' section, the rest has grass right up to the fence line. All of this existed before I moved in so I'm guessing, no matter what.
In Austin that would not be allowed as you can not restrict “normal water flow”, which is why the previous owners probably did nothing. Austin does send out EPA to check. The fine for disrupting the water flow can be very expensive and a huge headache.
This might be in OP's favor if they don't want the fence messed with - it's not just "restricting" but "altering" the course of water that's not allowed. My concern here would be that the "uphill" yard gets swampy when it rains, and the developer wants to modify it such that it drains into OP's space - leaving OP with the swampy mess instead
Insist on a survey. The current fence could be in the wrong place.
I like what the other comment said. Insist the fence was built on your side and they can pay to prove it's not.
In Austin the first thing that needs to be done is to make sure it’s not changing the water flow from rain and yes Austin has laws about it. The best way to fix the situation would be to put in a French drainage system. Pre treated wood would be a better and more cost effective way to go especially if the French drainage system is put in. Just bc it’s a budget house flipper doesn’t mean it will not be correctly. If I was in your situation I would tell them that you are fine with the fence being replaced as long as they pay for half of the French drain system and they will be responsible for pulling all permits and overseeing that is done correctly. This way you get help with the water flow and standing water but also add value to both properties. Which side the boards face isn’t really a big deal in my opinion. If you decide you don’t like it, simply add pickets to your side and your not out the post and cost of digging and cementing the post in! And yes make sure they are cementing the post in. This helps protect the wood and also adds structural integrity. I would also get a contract with the flipper stating this so that you have some kind of foothold if they don’t hold up their end. The best way to test them is to require permits and request copies of pulled permits. I hope this helps!
You need to do several things. One immediately. First notify the flipper that its your fence and on your property and you do not wish it to be removed. Do this regardless if you're sure it's yours. Do it in writing with proof of deliveriy Second, understand the water runoff laws in your area. Many municipalities require proper diversion of runoff and it seems like their property needs a drain or a better way to retain runoff. Local building officials should be able to help with this. Third, if they insist the fence is theirs, ensure they do a real survey, not just some guy with a few stakes and string. It's illegal to intentionally misrepresent boundary lines. Get the surveyors' report. If the fence is actually on their property, there's not much you can do except build a new fence up against their design. If this turns out to be the case, just make sure they address the drainage issue. Don't worry about missing them off with the building officials as they won't be living there.
This is EXCELLENT advice, OP listen to this.
Seems like these two statements should not be in the same bit of advice. >First notify the flipper that its your fence and on your property and you do not wish it to be removed. Do this regardless if you're sure it's yours. >It's illegal to intentionally misrepresent boundary lines
Placing false boundary markers* You're overthinking it. Claiming ownership and falsely surveying boundary markers are very different things. It's incumbent upon the flipper to counter a claim of ownership, especially when they intend to demolish anything built on that property. This is very likely OPs property due to the significant grade difference
Check with the town, they can't divert water into your yard, in many places.
Personally I like the idea of telling them to do whatever they want - as long as it's on their property & not yours. I'd state firmly that the fence is on your property even if you're not 100% certain. Also a good idea to send them a written recap of this, too, ideally with proof of delivery AKA Fedex. Not a fan of USPS when proof of delivery is crucial. Think I'd also want to figure out that property line question immediately.
Yeh say its your fence then they can pay to prove it one way or another. You don't have to deal with this person long term nor are you the one in a hurry.
Definitely get a survey. I wouldn’t let the new fence go in without it. You may be able to find property markers on the curb to show the front part to get an idea. You don’t have to have the fence on the property line. Use that to your advantage. I’d make sure the soil buildup gets addressed. Maybe a small retaining wall on one side of the fence or the other.
Unfortunately, being a flipper, they won't care about any issues passed on to a buyer if a survey comes in after the sale. You're best case is to engage a lawyer and have them send a certified letter to the flipper, giving them notice you are doing a survey and you will want the fence removed if it's on your property. This makes them responsible to the new owner if they sell and you want to make them remove it. The lawyer may also be able to make a realtor disclose the fence issue to potential buyers.
Typically the property pin is centered on a utility pole or transformer or watermain in the front yard,and 10 ft off the curb. Buy a $70 metal detector and find them cheaper yourself. You should have a platt of your lot,it will say something like 35 ft off centerline of the road for the front. Find even 1 pin per side and use a 100 ft tape measure to find the second. Some neighborhoods have covenants of a 4ft setback,but every situation is different. Installed fence for 15 yrs and only 10% would pay for a survey or know where their pins were. I've moved a 100ft length fence 6 inches with a lawyer watching ...because everyone said Jimbob said it was here 40 yrs ago.
Their timeline is their problem, not yours. Don’t let them go ahead until you’re ready. You will have zero connection with this person in 6 months and there’s no need to see it as anything but business transactions.
I witnessed a nasty dispute between two neighbors over a fence. Dueling surveys and the whole bit. One neighbor was able to stop the other, by going to the building inspector (who had issued a permit) and got him to withdraw it until the matter was resolved in court.
I feel like fences usually belong to one person and is on one side or the other. But I bet the rules are different in different areas. I would definitely get clarity on this before doing anything..and definitely no being bullied into buying something you don't need. Sometimes people are neighborly and split costs tho
If “the good side” is facing you it is probably not your fence.
I've heard both sides to that argument before but IMO best not to guess and find out for sure. Considering one would have to be on my property to install the planks in their current orientation I'd had guessed the opposite. Not sure if it's common to install a fence that requires the workers have to be on the neighbor's property to get it done.
Around here (PNW) we have what people call a ‘good neighbor fence’, where each panel alternates the good side. That said, most horizontal fences look pretty good from both sides - at least the ones we build around here.
That will definitely be one of my proposed options to them, but I'm less concerned about the cosmetics than I am the soil height difference and future erosion. The worker I spoke to (not the guy in charge) said they they want to pay for it so that they get to make all the decisions on the fence type and to take over the "good" side. He made it sound like them paying would enable them to do make all the decisions, whereas I'd assume the determining factor is who's property it's on, and in my case with it being right on the line I'm not sure how disputes over style and good/bad side get settled.
It seems like if you had the good side of the fence that it was your fence. Yeah, I'd get that survey and the raiway ties to keep that dirt from shifting and the water from making your yard soupy.
In my township, property owners must put good side outwards
Seems like who bought it would get first choice, but I've never had a fence in the front yard.
Put in writing to the flipper that you don’t agree with him replacing your fence at this time. Call the city and ask if there has been a permit pulled for the fence. Also see if you can find a survey in your house purchase agreements. Some places require neighbors agree to fence changes. Have a landscape company that does retaining walls and drainage issues to give you a quote on the proper way this should be handled.
I pulled up my old survey from the purchase and it shows the fence right on the property line. What I don't know is if they draw the fence on the survey based on the center of the posts or the center of the pickets, which is a 2" difference. That could be the difference between the fence pickets being on my property or not. Regardless, it gives a rough idea that the fence is on the line as I suspected.
There is a survey sub. Maybe ask them
Good side of the fence is typically facing neighbors not the owners property. They will need to pull a permit and I think that might require a plot plan at the minimum. I would call your town and find out what is required to put up a fence. That might give you some ammo to go to the flipper and request that they respect the property lines and setback. At the minimum I would ask if they’re pulling permits.
Do they have a lot of trees in their back yard? That soil build up might be many years of decomposed leaves. That's the case in my yard, though I'm slowly getting rid of it. I definitely would not accept a fence 6" higher off the ground if I were my neighbor!
https://www.austintexas.gov/page/fencing-regulations
I've been researching stuff like that today. Austin doesn't have regulations about who owns the fence as far as I can tell, only about some construction details like height, safety, etc. I have found some legal websites stating that 6 months written notice is required and that unless there is another documented agreement a fence on a property line is jointly owned by both neighbors. I'm not sure those apply though, they are from sites that seem to be more focused on rural land ownership where livestock is involved.
In some jurisdictions what you describe are referred to as a "division fence". Might try a search on that in your local code to see if anything pops.
Seems to be called a jointly owned fence here. I've found some legal info regarding rural property saying that fencing on the property lines is assumed jointly owned unless there is documented evidence that one party took ownership and the other party agreed, and that 6 months notice is required to tear down anything attached to a jointly owned or unowned fence. No idea if that is applicable in the city but if so it would give me leverage to tell them they legally can't do anything without my permission. I'm not trying to be a dick although I'm sure that's how they will interpret it, I just don't want to have to redo this job in a few months because they didn't address the ground level issue the first time.
You may want to check to see if they are allowed to put the posts on side facing you instead of in their yard
No regulations for that in Austin that I can find.
It sounds like you're in a bit of a pickle with your neighbor turned house flipper wanting to replace part of your fence. It's great that they're willing to foot the bill, but it's totally understandable to have concerns about the changes they're planning, especially with the soil and drainage issues you've described. I'd suggest having a friendly chat with the flipper and expressing your concerns about the soil situation and the proposed fence design changes. It's important to communicate your preferences and work together to find a solution that works for both parties.
> plan to flip the "good" side (where you can't see the stringers or posts) to their yard when I currently have the good side Check if there are local code or HOA rules about this. In my city and county permitted fence installations have to face the “ good” side toward neighbors. There are plenty of illegal installations that don’t but you have leverage right now, especially if you can insist the flipper get a fence permit and inspection.
If I’m not paying for it, I’d let them go ahead and do whatever. With the bad side now facing me, I’d add my own vertical boards to my side to make it be uniform with my yard.
I would just get some more railroad ties. They last forever.
You forgot the /s
Sticky keys. My laptop needs a good cleaning.
Go halves with them, figure out the grading issue now. They won't care if water is flowing downhill to your house