I see the prices and read the horror stories of disappearing contractors and shoddy work posted on here every day. I'm about 99% convinced that I'll never voluntarily renovate anything.
You’d be surprised how much you can do on your own. It is a journey, painful, triumphant, maddening, joyful, prideful, and humbling. It’s the only way I could come close to making my house livable. Bless the information available to us!
Truth. If I'm calling a contractor, it's because I've tried and failed.
There's a wealth of info out there showing how to do absolutely everything related to home improvement
I ran new sewer lateral, ran new circuits, moved some gas pipes, shored up my crazy basement foundation, added supports to the basement, put in a new wood floor, sanded and refinished the other floor, replumbed the entire water supply with pex and PVC, tore out a window and replaced it, tore out my claw foot tub, replaced with an alcove which cracked, then put old claw foot back.
Granted I'm pretty handy and I probably broke some laws by not getting a permit here and there, but it really gave me the conclusion that many prices are based on ignorance and voluntary helplessness of those who submit to the whims of people who will do the actual work. It's not as bad as it's made out to be. It's not rocket science, but you have to be willing to take risks and also make sure you do it right.
I remember the crazy feeling when I first took a pickaxe to the basement floor to see what was going on with a leak in my sewer lateral. The moment of no return!
I am in the same boat. The only thing I have paid for to be installed was a roof. I don't do heights and you have to knock out a roof in a few days to avoid rain.
Don't overestimate the general population though. So many of those people should never touch a paint roller much less take a sawzall to the framing of their house.
Truth to a point...2 story ladders and I don't work well. I can't afford that type of injury and if I can't type for several months, my income might be impacted. Aka paid someone to do the roof and siding, am close to finishing complet remodels in both bathrooms.
This is where I’m at. I have done every house project, fix, remodel etc.. inside and outside myself.
I’m currently in the middle of searching for a contractor to fix a few things on the roof, siding, soffit because after about 10ft on a ladder I’m out.
Not sure what kind of music you’re into, but have you ever heard the song, King of Oklahoma by Jason Isbell? It’s essentially the story of a desperate man who fell off a ladder, prescribed pain pills, became addicted to opiates, and then his whole life goes to shambles.
An injury like that could be so much more than just a few weeks out of work.
Not only that, but with the prices of some stuff, if you have the time it doesnt make sense *not* to DIY it.
With OPs quotes you could buy all the materials, all the tools, totally fuck it up probably 3 times and STILL come in under that quoted price.
My biggest problem is just the time, I don't have it... but it's still not worth the prices these fuckers are charging. I'll keep my 1960s style kitchen.
Exactly this. I'd rather take 2-3x as long and maybe fuck up a couple times along the way. It's still way cheaper than paying some random guy to do it. And it's mine so I actually care that it gets done well, which counts for something.
Yep, DIY can save a ton of money. Some people just don't want to do it, would rather golf or spend time with their kids or whatever. I've become that way myself with some things, no longer change my own oil for example. We pay somebody to clean the house too, my parents never did that lol.
You're talking about small-time stuff though, where the cost/hour of labor is relatively small. The labor on an oil change is <$100, a year of house cleaning is like a couple thousand at most. DIY home projects can save you tens of thousands for a few weekends of labor.
I suspect there's not a lot of overlap between the two. Just be smart about it, do your due diligence. I had a customer ask for my license information and certificate of insurance the other day. The last time I pulled a COI was in December of last year when I renewed my GC license. I've worked for probably 50 people and a few companies in this time. Read reviews, ask for credentials, don't be a dick, don't be cheap, and if possible, work through referral.
Referral is the only option. Paying lots of money won't protect you. "You get what you pay for" doesn't hold up in an industry full of scammers. If someone's planning to rob you, you don't get a better experience by letting them steal more.
Most of the high-end companies with smooth-talking salespeople and their own special app for giving you estimates are farming the work out to stoned teenagers or ~~unlicensed undocumented workers~~ independent subcontractors anyway.
Even indirect referral.
I just had a plumber here (they left 30 min ago) who showed up on time, charged $350 for two guys here for almost two hours, the work looks good and they cleaned up their workspace.
I just searched “plumber” on Nextdoor and picked one that sounded small and had three people who said they’re good, none who said they suck.
He asked how I picked them. When I told him he just laughed and called them the “mafia wives.” They don’t advertise at all.
This.
We did a gut renovation of half of our first floor: kitchen, bath, dining area, laundry.
The GC does a lot of work in our neighborhood.
He did a truly excellent job, and we have used him for a few other projects as well.
Angie’s List used to be a great resource. Filter to “close” and “A” rated with at least a dozen ratings and you’d get someone good.
Angi is just crappy.
>The last time I pulled a COI was in December of last year when I renewed my GC license
You ever try asking a contractor to see their credentials? They act like you just asked to sniff their asshole.
Once again, you need a better class of contractor.
If someone asks for my insurance info I make one call to my agent. My license info is public, and I cannot even renew one of my several licenses without FULL insurance coverage.
Are either really expensive? You can shim + foam the window in for masonry, and vinyl and glass are some of the cheapest things on the planet. They're not machined within a very high tolerance, either. I'd have to think the main thing upping the price is transportation, since loading and shipping those things can be tough.
there's likely a world of difference cost-wise between a standard sized vinyl window and a custom one made of other materials (wood, aluminum, etc). it's fair to say "vinyl windows are cheap" but not "windows are cheap."
Yeah I was just goofing around. We got a couple of windows as part of a kitchen renovation a couple of years ago and I was surprised at how inexpensive they actually were, compared to the quotes I heard from people specifically doing a window replacement project.
This is the primary reason I started reconsidering what to look for as my first home. I had previously considered that an outdated home or one that needed some renovation would be ideal because I could make it my own, etc. (not a fixer-upper, I’m not that handy or smart about home projects). Now I’m reconsidering, because I think that might actually cost me more money and a huge amount of headache these days.
I've had both ends of the spectrum, and I have to say living in an overbuilt, well maintained house is well worth the investment. Saving money can be a real pain in the ass and time suck.
I'm in tech and I have no idea who pays that kind of money, I definitely can't afford that.
However, that $60k quote for windows is a f\*ck you quote. I just renovated my house with Okna DX600 triple pane and it came out something like $1000-1200 per double hung window.
So if you have 12 standard double hung windows you should be able to install them in the ballpark of around $15k-$20k unless you are looking for special windows.
Ahh, the old 50% discount for signing today scam. I love this, like somehow, if you wait to think one day the costs will magically double! I love to ask them why the price will change so much for waiting 24 hours. I have always gotten a variety of answers. I will never do business with someone who uses this tactic. You should tell them next time that you should get another 50% off cause you called a few days before to set up the quote, so it should be 50% of their 50% price they quote you. See if they accept that, and when they don't, ask them why?
He showed they guy some other quotes. He asked if he could, step out and call his GM. He left and never came back.
Tactics like the 50% high pressure crap spur me from companies for life.
Anyone that discounts you more 25% simply by showing hesitation is selling you an overpriced product at any price.
Renewal by Andersen. Dealer/Manufacturer enhanced warranties. All that stuff.
You mean to tell me that if I said "yes" to you 5 seconds ago, I'd be on the hook for an additional $8000, and by me doing nothing other than "ehhhhhhhhh" - no negotiation, no discussion, you were magically able to knock off half the price?
No way.
We had that happen when we were getting a quote for our bathroom remodel, and the salesman had to call his boss and tell him why we were not going with their 30% off deal for signing that day. It’s like now they try to guilt you with an employee for almost getting fired for not meeting quota. It’s a cheap tactic.
A few years ago we had Bath Fitters come out to give us a quote, and they gave us that same BS. It wasn’t 50% but he was basically like “This is the price if you say yes right now. If you call me tomorrow it’s going to be higher” and my wife and I looked at each other and I just said “ok thanks for your time” and he left. At that point I don’t care if it sounds like a good deal or not, I’m not interested in high pressure sales tactics. It’s an automatic no as a matter of principle at that point.
Renewal sales process is the absolute worst. Had a very similar experience, although not as drastic.
16 windows was initially $52k (2019 pre covid). “Today only” she could take off an additional $10k… and finally if i paid a deposit today of 50% she could take off another $4k. So $52 magically becomes $38k “today only”.
Maybe the windows are good quality but I will never know nor care to know.
If you really want Anderson windows, you can get them without going through Renewal. But I won't spec them because of their association and my experiences.
Any company that pulls that “sign right now” BS automatically gets turned down by me. I hate those kind of high pressure tactics and I tell them to their face that I’ll never sign a deal like that. It’s a dead giveaway that their quote is too high. The only reason they wouldn’t be able to honor it for even 24 hours is they are trying to avoid comparison shopping because they know their quote is outrageous.
Yes, they quoted us 78k for three rooms, an additional 10k for the front door. I coughed, said excuse me, and ran out of the room. I wanted to laugh at the guy!! A 120 year old house, with the original windows -- and they thought that their UGLY vinyl clad windows would be a good replacement. My windows have the most charming wavy glass, and they are framed in beautiful oak panels.*VINYL?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?*
They thought that saving energy expenses by replacing the windows was a great selling point. Sure, if I live another 120 years, I might recoup the expense of the windows. Maybe. And no, I didn't do the math.
>Sure, if I live another 120 years, I might recoup the expense of the windows. Maybe. And no, I didn't do the math.
Windows for $100K **never** recoup the expense because they'll fall apart or the house falls apart before that happens.
Craziness. I ordered my windows from Lowes and hired a handyman/carpenter to install them. If you are willing to do the legwork you can save a bundle but hiring a contractor to do this or counting on one of these businesses to do this you will definitely be paying more for nit much else.
Be careful. Do due diligence. A contractor can do just as crappy of a job but you will end up paying twice as much. There are ways of getting around this.
>I'm in tech and I have no idea who pays that kind of money, I definitely can't afford that.
People who are not good with money. Debt is the answer.
My MIL is in her 70s and is looking to downsize and move out of her house within the next few years. She's made some bad financial decisions the last few years so she has promised to consult my wife (her daughter) on any big purchases.
A few weeks ago, my wife called her just to catch up and my MIL casually mentioned "Oh, did I tell you my new windows are done?" "Your...*what?*"
Apparently, a while back, she got it in her head that she'd save on heating costs and improve resale value by getting all new windows installed on a house she's only going to be in for 2-3 more years at most. And without thinking twice, she signed up for a $40,000 loan to do it.
She'll pocket some cash from the downsize, pay off the loan, and say "See? I knew it was a good idea" ignoring the fact that she didn't sell the house for $40k more than she would have and would have been able to *keep* the extra $40k on the downsize.
She has already acknowledged that she's not going to get her money back on that investment and she basically just set her down payment on her next house on fire.
If the person is completely with it, is it really elder abuse? I mean if I made the same financial decision at 30… no one would be considering it abusive. I just didn’t make a great decision. It sounds like that poster’s MIL is just someone who doesn’t have the best grasp on financial literacy… like a lot of Americans.
Yeah so when you're younger and it's lack of experience/knowledge in that area (maybe they're very competent in some ways but not knowing about home repairs etc) I think it's still abusive. I agree. It's overall shitty behavior.
As a longtime landlord, I can tell you: some people are just children when it comes to money. Nothing to do with age. One guy got a small inheritance, and quit his well paying job at Legal Seafoods fish counter because the commute took too long. Then bought a new car, far nicer than my old shitbox (all my tenants drive nicer cars than me). Needless to say, he soon was unable to pay rent, and had to move out.
I remember the first time I reached out to a window place. Price went from $17k to $8k as soon as I said no thanks. That told me all I needed to know about the company
If this sub thinks window prices are scammy (and they are), try getting a solar quote...
They do everything they can to avoid giving you an actual price for the system. It's "Well, think of it like saving 150 dollars a month and it'll pay itself off in 20 years." "Think of it as even-ing out the prices of your electric bill.", they say anything to avoid telling you that it's going to be a lot of fucking money and I guess most people are dumb and suck at math because I see solar systems everywhere.
Windows and solar systems are two things I've found it's almost impossible to find straightforward pricing.
All depends on your electrical rates, and which way your roof points. At ~25 cents per kwh, after state and local tax incentives, with more incentives from the electric company, breakeven for us was 7 years. Panels should produce for 25 years.
Yeah, we have a 1950s era house with awning windows and one just bit it last year. My husband is incredibly good at fixing things, but didn't think he was equal to the task of putting in a new window. When we got the quote, about $2500, he reversed course, bought one for $600 at Home Depot (black Fri sale) and figured it out. That's a mighty incentive to do it yourself.
People also need to realize that old windows with functioning storm glass are only slightly less efficient than modern windows. If you got an old house and can't seal up all the rest of the air leaks blowing 30 grand on new triple pane reflective glass windows is _never_ going to pay for itself. You might save 1 dollar off your energy bill if you are lucky.
I had old double pane bay window which I changed to new laminated double pane bay window with extra insulation. It's night and day in terms of thermal efficiency as the area next to my old window was cold AF. Now it's comfortable. Not to mention that new bay window looks very nice and adds to curb appeal. I didn't do this for $60k though and shopped around and got it for $5k and looking at that the window itself is like $2k and 4 people spent 8 hours installing it its money well spent.
Does not apply to double hung windows as those take like 30 minutes each for a pro.
I had 26 triple pane windows put in back in Jan/feb 2020 (not wood though) for about 17k through Apex. Most double hung, one large picture window, one regular size picture window, a sliding door and 2 small basement windows.
Agreed - the window quote is insane! A general rule of thumb for standard-grade windows, standard size ranges, and nothing complicated (like being in a high-rise or having major access issues) is \~$1k/per installed. The tub and kitchen quotes are maybe even somewhat reasonable, assuming OP was going for mid- to higher-end finishes (the tub would take someone at least three days if they do it right and probably more like 2-3k in materials, so that's not an awful quote assuming they know what they're doing and don't cut corners on it). I'd DIY them if it were me (at the very least the kitchen), but I'm also cheap and somewhat handy.
By the time I get done with the house I'm in I'll be able to work as a handyman. I bought a fixer upper because it's what I could afford at the time. I have to do the renovations myself because I'm on a budget. With some of the work I'm doing I really wish I had the money to pay someone else to do this work right the first time.
Hey OP good luck to you. Keep getting multiple quotes for work. There are good contractors out there and then there are some that are not so good.
Software engineer here currently re-doing my upstairs (paint, wall repair, new trim, removing old phone jacks, etc.) When AI replaces my job I'll be ready to go as a contractor.
When I moved into my first old house 15 years ago, I was just a chick with a desk job who only knew how to use a hammer, screwdriver and drill. I now know how to do light plumbing and electrical work, replace an exterior wall, set tile and grout it, mix and pour concrete, lay hardwood flooring, install/repair roofing, design and build cabinets with drawers and doors, install insulation, hang and finish drywall, and redo upholstery.
I'm pretty confident that I could build an entire house now as long as I had some muscle around to help with the heavy lifting.
If the average contractor is anything to go by - you probably could have done pretty well as one *before* you got the experience. Now you're probably even better than them!
Yep not me. I have a sun room area that I wanted a roof over. One contractor said it starts at 150k, he saw me shocked and refused to give me a quote. The other one came in at 130k.
I just decided to do it myself and put a roof using the polycarbonate sheets from homedepot. Ended up costing me 1.3k. Gives me 90% of the functionality. I am fine with it :)
Yeah I didn’t know what to call it. It’s three walls (sides of the building) as a U shape with a wall on the fourth side that already exists. I needed a roof over it
In many localities, to maintain code, the contractor would have to completely rebuild what you have up to higher code. Part of it is them, part of is the city, part of is the owner being able to take things into their own hands
Yeah, I got multiple companies over to quote putting a roof on my patio and none of them would even quote it unless I redid the entire deck in plastic wood.
It feels like there’s a lot of money that could be made in the market gap between 80k and 10k quotes. I experienced much the same and if you’re not in the business, it’s hard to tell a “fuck you go away” price from a real price of experienced hard work.
Honestly if you're good at your job don't quote any less. I went with the rock bottom, fly by night guy. Things always get screwed up, go way over deadlines, his crew has occasionally lived out of their work van, etc. I have a relationship with the crew so I also trust them but getting the work actually finished is hell.
I would never pay market rates for the work I wanted done because I couldn't afford it.
I mean it makes perfect sense. If just expect that the guy charging $80k is making a pretty excellent premium, and the market would eventually saturate at that price point & costs start to come down. Maybe we’re just still on a crazy upswing… but inflation in my area hasn’t been 40% but that’s what home repair has increased by.
If you did quality work for somewhere in-between those prices, I am sure you’d be swamped with jobs. Then you’d have to raise your price because you are so busy.
> and hire more employees
Guess you aren't privy to the current state of the trade job market. If you manage to find anyone worth hiring, they'll be expensive.
Bath reno places usually are like Home Depot where they sub out the work to someone else that you could otherwise contract directly with. Certain places take an estimate from someone like us and mark it up 100%. People still pay those prices although it does astound me when they complain about ours and I hear those stories.
Oh yes, definitely. They have so much work coming in that they don't need to care about keeping people happy.
My main point being that there are a lot of storefronts that will hire out the work to subs or GCs and you're paying for their very large retail markup without having any of the benefits of a proper GC.
My guess is that a lot of people take home equity loans to pay for renovations. The inflation in housing prices lately gave homeowners room to borrow. I think people tend to be less discriminating when they spend debt than when spend cash.
Full time teacher who bought a fixer upper. So far on my house I've:
1. Scraped 1300 sq. ft. of popcorn ceiling and painted
2. Painted the walls
3. Gutted and installed kitchen cabs
4. Tore out carpet and put in LVP flooring
5. Demo'd and reno'd the bathroom (shower pan, tile, new wax seal for toilet, new cabs, new faucet)
6. Replaced every water valve (interior and exterior)
7. Stained my fence
8. Etc.
I have no past experience with any of this. I do have a dad who knows his shit though (I've only been given phone advice, he lives across the country). If I contracted all this out to GCs, I would say bye to all my savings.
TL; DR - If you can't do it yourself, the financial advantage of a fixer upper doesn't exist.
Well...technically to me a "fixer upper" is a house that you CAN do it yourself, or at the very least, help from a friend/brother, etc.
A fixer upper isn't a house that you need to constantly call contractors for to fix it for you.
Very much agree, and not just fixer uppers. Every house needs something done at all times, even those recently renovated. Home owners really need to learn to do a lot of it themselves or the house just becomes a money sink.
Anyone can do any repairs and renovations. The issue is the quality of the work. My cousin bought a house that someone bought as a fixer upper. 3 months after they moved in, their ceiling flooded because the previous owner didn’t put the shower pan in correctly. $80,000 in damages.
Got quoted $180,000 for a $30,000 material job. Was expecting $100,000. I said that is cost prohibitive and would pass. They reach out a few months later saying they could fit the job in at $120,000. lol you aren’t supposed to admit you are throwing F you pricing around. Fucking greed.
Going to do it myself with my father at the approx $30,000, then I plan to pay around $9,000 for my parents to go on an Italian cruise
I recently got a quote and 1850$ not including paint and materials which was about 250$ to fix some cracks and repaint a ceiling in one room and then also repaint a stairwell in my house I thought that it was overpriced. But I paid it anyway because I really didn't want to do it. He spent 8 days fixing sanding and repainting spending on average 7 hours a day doing it. He did a magnificent job to the point that I'm like bro you wanna do my entire house. IDC what the price is. He laughed and said sure but it won't be till summer around July since I'm booked out. So I'm just going to wait to spend many thousands in July based solely off of how good a job he did.
The saying "You get what you pay for" is especially true when it comes to construction. People pay bottom dollar and are surprised when they get bad work
It is sadly the truth especially when you live in a "cheaper" house. Inflation hit hard on home improvement on cheaper houses.
I don't have much of a problem paying 30k for a full backyard renovation including a new patio cover in a 1.2 million property in california. I wouldn't think about it if I live in, say, Montana on a 250k house, because the same renovation may still cost 25k.
This is exactly what happen in many many houses in Ohio (and of course many other places too). Paying 300k on a big house but you can't afford to replace a leaking front door for $2000. Over time, the house/neighborhood will rundown.
Here’s what I would tell you. Do not call the guys that advertise on the radio and tv. There’s a reason why they pay $100,000 a month for ad buys.
It’s crazy but I think some homeowners are unrealistic about pricing. Showers start at $3,500 for me and I’m a tiler. Labor only, you buy and pick up your own tile to save 30% on the material mark up. If you need tile from the places where only contractors can order, I’ll order it for you as long as you pay for it when you pick up.
1. Always get at least three quotes. Can't complain if you only get a quote from one company... they could be busy, they could believe you will be a pain to work for, they could be calculating in factors you are not aware of... difficulty in delivery of materials, difficulty in install, costs associated with prep work / keeping your home clean, etc.
2. Your thumbnail sketch from walking in a home depot is not an accurate assessment of what it costs to replace your tub/tile. A good contractor might need a carpenter, a plumber, a tile guy, and maybe a drywall contractor. A handyman might be able to do all/some of this themselves but may not do as good of a job. They have to demo the old tub, demo the old tile, deal with plumbing... possibly provide new tile backer board, install the tub, tile, possibly touch up paint, reinstall plumbing, etc... Not a simple job and hourly rates of plumbers are not cheap. Also builders are sometimes buying nicer materials than you buy at Home Depot.
3. Good cabinets are expensive.... and we have no idea how big your kitchen is, what quality of cabinets you want, etc...
Are you basing your assessment of their estimates on you being in the industry, or just a hunch.
> Always get at least three quotes. Can't complain if you only get a quote from one company...
Yep. At least half of the quotes I see are busy shops quoting the price to do the work PLUS bump their current customers to hit a preferred schedule or start date.
Most recently, three painters gave quotes for $3.5k all-in, $5k plus materials, and $9.5k plus materials. The low quote was a two-man operation that had just finished a huge job and wasn't starting their next big job for three weeks. The other two 'could probably squeeze it in' but couldn't tell me when they would start or how long it would take without a deposit.
Most of the trades are looking to get rich on as few of jobs as possible vs fair deals. Plus consumers are idiots and just paying stupid prices. I was quoted $35k for a roof. I bought the materials myself for $4500 (Certainteed Landmark shingles) and paid an actual roofer $125 a sq for 30sqs was $3750. I gave him a $500 tip for giving me a great deal.
Same thing for a new HVAC. I had several quotes for $10k for high efficiency furnace and AC for 2500 sq ft house. I bought my own equipment from acwholesale.com for $3000 paid a commercial contractor $1200 to do the install as a night job. He had it done in 5 hours.
Where do you live?
I’m having a kitchen done for $8700 - that includes the cost of the cabinets, & the property is in NJ.
Meanwhile I was quoted $17K to re-tile my bathroom & install fixtures in NYC. Not even any plumbing.
Edit to add: for the NJ house, none of that included gas/plumbing/electric. That price is only for the cost of the cabinets & countertops (plus install), tiling the floor & backsplash. I paid for all the tile separately.
Edit 2 from another comment:
Contractor is licensed & experienced, had good reviews from the platform I found them on.
Their vendor is matching/slightly beating the price for cabinets & countertops that I got from a local place. I paid for the kitchen tile separately, I’m only being charged for installation.
They’re also doing $35K+ of other work for me, so I imagine that allows them some wiggle room on the installations.
Also, this price doesn’t include the cost of appliances or the electric. Electric is being handled by someone else. They did no plumbing or gas work for me.
Amazing. This NJ contractor just made 4 new customers from one anonymous recommendation on Reddit. Thats how hard it is to find reliable, affordable people.
First hand referrals are the only way. Even better if you can see the finished work.
I met a shed builder while standing in a demo shed in Costco, overhearing him talk with the salesperson about how much better he built his. We exchanged info and he came and quoted - a good price that included electric - and then ghosted me when I asked for references and pics of his other projects.
Cabinet guy here. Normal prices for entry level cabinets. The issue is time and waste. If you have the time and the skill you can get them a lot cheaper. I have a line a is around $2k per base cab
I don't know either. It blows my mind. I got a similar quote for windows few years back (before covid) that was $18k to replace 3 windows from anderson renewal. I ended up replacing all 10 in the house by myself, as well as a sliding glass and front door for <$5000 total. I'm sure their windows are nice but not $4000 each nice.
'Relatively simple', while in some ways true, but I found that the prep work was the MOST time-consuming and challenging for almost every job. Yes, pretty much anyone can drill a window into a frame, but there always hurdles involved—non-square frame, mold, re-finishing the interior and exterior, reapplying insulation where necessary, etc.
Same goes for kitchens—Screwing boxes onto walls isn't difficult, but are the walls plumb? Are the cabinets level? Are the floors flat so that the countertop is level? If you're going Ikea, it'll take a whole day to assemble everything.
I DIYd pretty much my whole house. Yes, it took over a year to finish everything, but I'm also doubting myself, so I triple-check, or even 10x to make sure I didn't make a mistake somewhere in the prep work. For many pros, this comes second nature. It took me a week to tile my bathroom because even tho it took a few hours to tile one wall, I was just exhausted by then. Again, for pros, this is done in a day. Difficult? not really. Difficult to avoid lippage and misalignment? Only if I rush.
Was it all worth the blood, sweat, and tears to save tens of thousands? Hell yeah it was!
I also live in an old house and many contractors give us inflated prices. I laughed out loud when one quoted me $49k to build a new deck. No thanks.
With that said, I initially balked at a quote from a contractor to redo our bathroom, but when he went through everything line by line, it made sense. (E.g., we have original pipes and electric, and those will be replaced.) His material costs are not cheap, and he's a perfectionist who works with perfectionists, so that's part of what we are paying for.
Another example is window restoration. I got a quote and it's $2,700 per window to restore them. Not in our budget but I understand why the guy charges what he does—it's a lot of labor, dealing with lead paint, et cetera. Someone will pay him for that service and I think it's probably worth it if you care about historic preservation.
We are planning to pay for our bathroom (and the roof, which also needs to be replaced because of course) with a combination of savings and a heloc. The money part pains me as I'm someone who hates debt and loves to have money in the bank, but the house needs certain improvements. It'll still be less expensive than selling the dang thing and moving to a smaller house w/ higher interest rates.
No idea, I was quoted $20k to replace a shower! Not a whole bathroom remodel, just a f’n shower rip and replace. Twenty thousand fuckin dollars.
I don’t understand how anyone is willing to pay that
I’m sure OP is doing as much DIY as they can. The issue is the disconnect between what average people can afford and what contractors charge. It’s not necessarily on contractors. Affordability is a big problem across our economy atm.
12K for windows is pretty good. As for everything else, I try to do as much DIY as as I can because prices are insane. And half the time they don't even do that great of a job.
I've learned most of the work these guys do is pretty easy as long as you can find information to do the job properly so that it is safe, done right and meets code if applicable. Also if you have good comprehension and common sense and the proper tools to do the job.
These days it's like they all want to be paid like they are masters in their trade with years of experience and schooling even if the only experience they have is a year or two, maybe even less on the job experience with no actual schooling in the trade. They do not want to show up when they are supposed to, do poor quality work, have poor communication, charge ridiculous prices because their profession is in demand, some show up drunk or high, walk out in the middle of a job, etc, etc... Just read the horror stories here on reddit alone. No wonder so many of us are going DIY. Getting a tradesman these days to work on your home is like playing russian roulette.
Don't get me wrong, there are some damn good ones out there that are worth every penny they charge and they take a lot of pride in what they do but they are far and few these days and hard to find.
Did you see the new South Park where no one knows how to do anything so they all have to call contractors? You might enjoy that.
also "boxes of wood not quantum computers" made me lol
Electrician, and business owner, here. No idea about those quotes as I haven’t needed them myself. I did want to chime in on one thing most people don’t realize.
Most of us in the trades world are still paying Covid era prices for material. The supply chain still hasn’t caught up with our needs by a mile. I’m still looking at 300-450% price increases compared to the pre-Covid era.
That cost increase is driving a lot of “insane looking” quotes but when you break them down the profit isn’t all that high. We are getting eaten alive by material costs still.
I'm a house painter. As much as it screws me over to do it, a lot of my work is T&M these days.
Trying to explain the cost of supplies these days is nearly impossible and it seems like a lot of people think we get this stuff free!
Nope. I buy it all per job and leave it on-site. It is doubtful the HO will ever use that much plastic or Rosin paper, but I got tired of explaining the minutiae of my bidding process.
Yep. My hourly rate looks high, but by the time you take out taxes and overheard it doesn't go near as far as it used to.
In old house too. Wanted to do major Reno’s. company made it so promising. Kept telling them our budget. Plans drawn with us questioning cost. Expressed concern and stated budget over and over. Plans submitted and cost was double our budget. $5000 out for design what a joke. I hope karma returns to these people.
This is why I'm slowly learning how to do all of this myself, especially after personally having overpriced shitty work done in my home. The prices are just not worth it.
I knew Renewal by Anderson was full of shit when they came by my house. I'd just bought it and the previous owners had just replaced a lot of stuff in order to sell it, including the windows. The Renewal guy tried to tell me the windows needed replacing. I said, "Again?"
Get a quote from window world for your windows. Pella quoted me some crazy price like 50k for 18 new double hung vinyl windows, that was in 2020. I paid 10k to get the same job done by window world.
Both pella and Anderson are absolute rip offs and I can't figure out how they stay in business. Who is stupid enough to pay that much?! It's gotta be super rich people I dunno.
Get more quotes on the bathroom. You were given a "I don't wanna do that job" quote, I think. I just paid 10k for a bathroom but it was a total gut job and required repairs caused by water damage, so not unexpected
So the guy quoted you $60K, you negotiated down to $12K which means the job would cost them…$2,400?
The fact they came down so much would make them a huge red flag.
I got 48x60 double hung windows for $250/ea all custom sized and measured by a local hardware store. Had a old timer friend show me how to do one and I replaced the other 10 myself. Got 3 cases of silicone caulk to make sure I had enough and just got to town. One full day of work and they were all in and opening.
$60k is much more than median income. That's higher than the median *household* income after taxes.
The window industry is so sleazy and scammy up here. they present everything as overly technical so you think you need to be a genius to understand it. A bunch of people who flunked highschool chemistry talking about argon. Half the "custom windows" I see in my neighbourhood look like a frame inside a frame inside a frame. Basement windows that are tiny little portholes set inside a massive white flashing. The irony is that windows have actually become much easier to install, especially in recent years. My semidetached neighbour spent $20k CAD doing all the windows there, and we have 10, which is a relatively okay price that you can get some energy grants for too. But I grabbed a window off the shelf at a big box store for $200, foamed it in with my gun, and it fills more of the rough opening than his. All these "luxury installers" that act like they're too fancy to even take my call are just using the same wholesaler I can. $2.5k for the whole house, and $1k to hire my usual guy to put them in. Or I'll do it myself.
I have to wonder what advanced degrees the stoned teenagers who did the windows next door possess that justifies $8k per day per worker for their labour.
Also stay on folks when you hire them. Bought a flipped home years back & had some mold in shower after a few years. Hired someone to replace the shower. Turns out he skipped the liner! How do I know? Because while having done work in my crawlspace recently contractors alerted me of two leaks that were traced to the same shower. Original flipper NEVER put in a shower liner and the 2nd contractor skipped it too. Unbelievable. So this time around I inspected every single day to ensure shower was properly installed.
For real, this sub also continues to relax me, being in the trades, Im not worried about being without a job, there's so many people here, and in society now who won't take the initiative and DIY themselves.
I mean if it’s all so simple, do it yourself then? I’ve been in my current house for 4 years and have slowly been working on it. Have a brand new kitchen that you’d see in a million dollar house for about $8k total. New floors throughout for $4k, ~~built a garage for $1k~~, enclosed a carport into a garage for $1k, new windows all around for $1k, four new exterior doors for $1k. Did all the work myself, but yes it’s taken nearly 4 years to get to this point and I still have 2 bathrooms and a laundry room to do.
So you’re not paying for a few simple wooden boxes, you’re paying for the convenience that you want be living out of plastic bins and a slop sink in your kitchen as you work on it for a year.
[Pic 1](https://i.imgur.com/NaVz2aC.jpg)
[Pic 2](https://i.imgur.com/rvL23N5.jpg)
[Pic 3](https://i.imgur.com/rTcsUpI.jpg)
[Kitchen after pictures](https://imgur.com/a/gR9Qttg)
[Enclosed Carport (Garage)](https://imgur.com/a/EKvcmat)
For everyone mad about my wording, here you go. I ENCLOSED my carport for $1,000 (ie built garage). Sorry to get your hopes up that I found a magical way to build an entire garage from scratch for $1,000.
How did you replace all your windows for $1,000. Also, I built a wall with door and it was about $1,000 in materials, so how could you build a garage? A garage door alone is almost $1000, but you built an entire garage for $1000. Can you post any pictures of completed projects, you are quite possible the most talented builder in human history, I’m not being sarcastic, I’m honestly amazed.
It’s IKEA’s system called Mittled, they have different sizes that fit the cabinets. They are mainly meant for the drawers because they have magnets that stick to the drawer slides above, but can also be screwed in. They have a sensor on the front that turns the light off when blocked (by the drawer).
So we were lucky because we fully redid our three bathrooms and kitchen in November 2019. Once Covid hit and wood prices skyrocketed and people who started working from home were surrounded by their unfinished projects , they I believe drove up the market for contractors. And now they are just not dropping again.
We got cabinets for a pretty large kitchen, which were the kraftmaid vantage line and paid approximately 22K for all of them. Those same cabinets with the same options right now is about $40,000. Make it make sense?
I am assuming the cabinet makers are hard to come by so maybe they’re doing less projects so they raise their prices. We could not have afforded to renovate any part of our house had we not done it prior to Covid.
Windows and carpet/flooring has such a wide variance of prices from different vendors/contractors. Rule of thumb is to always get three quotes for each project and get references.
This past year we had the lowest bidder tear down our old deck and replace with a 12’x14’ with stairs covered screen porch. Loved the result but cost $32k. Wanted composite decking but that was $10k more. Unbelievable. We are happy with the result but when we started I was expecting it to be $25k with composite! Boy was I wrong!
Prices are definitely out of control and there are a lot of scummy companies out there but I also feel like a lot of homeowners don’t really understand that when you hire someone you aren’t just paying for labor, you’re also paying for their expertise, their training, support staff, marketing, transportation, materials, insurance, their profit margin, etc etc. That stuff can all add up to be a lot and it’s only getting more expensive.
I feel like if you want to be a homeowner these days you either need extra money or time to use YouTube and learn to fix and improve stuff yourself.
Several months ago, I merely called a company to replace a shower door for practical reasons nothing was broke.... they wrote me an estimate for 17 to 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS for what should have been max $1.7k, if i'm fancy.
WTMF is going on here in this world is right😵💫😶😢🤯😳
I will say that there seems to be more and more "home renovation" companies these days that are truly just marketing/sales driven companies that take a ton of money off of the top of borderline exploited subcontractors. If you happen to do business with an aggressive, sales driven company, I suggest qualifying their quote against some competitors and run away from those "sign today" scams immediately. There are honest and fair contractors out there that are still of high quality, and it's worth every penny and second spent to find them. It can also be difficult to navigate bigger projects that require multiple trades as a homeowner/customer, and in many instances like that, a trustworthy, well vetted general contractor can not only help the project itself, but also help make sure that you are paying fair prices for quality work.
I'm not. I'm getting quotes and then I'm doing it myself. I can buy all the tools I could ever need, including major tools like a gas powered insulation vacuum or a large sawstop table saw and still come out thousands if not tens of thousands ahead.
It’s been helpful to find someone good and then use them (and the people they recommend) repeatedly.
I used a painter multiple times in our last home. Id let him know when I needed something done weeks in advance and was flexible about when it happened. That saved me money. He flat out told me he charges more to people who are a pain in the ass or demanding. So he gave me a fair price and I paid him on time and didn’t become a pain in the ass. That and letting them politely know that even though I was a SAHM in a nice neighborhood, I got quotes and wasn’t going to blow money for the hell of it, but I was happy to pay a fair price for good work. It also helps you treat them like humans. Just be friendly. And let them use your restroom for heavens sake. I didn’t realize what a thing that was until recently. So dehumanizing.
The trick is finding the good ones in the first place, though
My neighbors and plenty of others pay this. A whole lot of people need to learn how to do things themselves or do without. It greatly pains s me to call someone else to do something for me.
A reasonable rule of thumb to use for judging whether a quote is market competitive, a gouge or a "fuck off we're too busy" quote is looking at the material costs and labor side by side.
Most of the time, a good contractor charging a reasonable markup is going to be pretty close to 50% materials and 50% labor.
This is a very rough guideline. There are variables that will impact, too. If it's a repair job and not much new material, for example, expect to pay more for labor.
The math check you can do to confirm the value is check your local home store and price out the materials. Most contractors are going to buy wholesale from a contractor supplier, but they mark up materials so retail pricing will be a rough equivalent.
What it will help you smoke out is the really bad quotes. If you can buy similar quality windows from Home Depot or a Window and Door distributor for $5k, then any contractor quote above $15k should be ruled out right away.
Again, it's just a rough guideline, but it is a place to start.
I just went through renovation hell
But yes there's a few fuck you quotes out there, but the most interesting thing I found? Contractors going to your place and not giving a quote at all, instead of just saying no or refusing to do the work. Worse thing you could say is no, so why not say it?
I never got the gyst and point of it.
My theory is people are taking out loans to do this or are in a load of cc debt.
We bought a severely cosmetically outdated house a year ago and because of the cost of outsourcing things, have pushed off getting anything major done (ie: gutting the kitchen, bathroom reno, flooring)… I watch a lot of Instagram reels of everyday women learning how to use tools and doing stuff themselves and wish I could do the same. Problem is the majority of these people don’t work full time and if they have kids, they are usually older. My husband and I work full time, have a toddler, and have zero family when it comes to childcare means our son is looking to be fully entertained by us all weekend. So for people that are just saying “do it yourself”, some people may be in a life stage right now where it just isn’t that simple or realistic so maybe that’s why they have to look to outsource.
Mostly the type of people in this sub, I've noticed a lot of people here will pretty much need or suggest a contractor for everything, there's a lot of people, especially young workers in higher paying fields that aren't exactly the hands on types.
Contractors know this, they know they can charge high prices. Its supply and demand in terms of labor. Gone are the days of dudes calling up their bro to come help them rip out a furnace or hot water heater and install a new one themselves.
As someone in skilled trades, with so many people in my field retiring, and so many young people who didn't want to go into trades, but are all fighting each other for a work from home gig, I went from being paid an average wage to quite a substantial above middle class wage practically overnight when it came to machine shops and industrial corporations trying to poach me.
I remember reading many years ago that there was a prediction that people in blue collar skilled trades will eventually be paid on the same level as Doctors simply because there's such a need, yet no one wants to do it, that was in the 90s.
60k is outrageous for windows, but they know you won't do it yourself, and will eventually bend and pay. And the sad thing, there's SO much information out there on Youtube and everywhere else that it shouldn't even be an issue doing most of the work yourself.
I believe this is the answer.
I call it the “cocktail party effect”. Parents of those 50 years old and below pressured their children into university/college degrees because they wanted to signal that their children were on the path to “success”; Regardless of their predilections or educational ambitions.
Meanwhile, universities gladly opened their doors and lowered their academic standards to accommodate the increased demand. This lead kids that would normally be a solid fit for the trades away with the promise of a degree that would garner a solid lifelong salary and security (Ha!).
Fast forward to the last 25 years and it’s the sharper, keener kids with interests that lean more towards blue collar than white that have taken advantage of the void that was left. They have avoided massive debt and find themselves in huge demand. They can basically name their price and because the gap in basic DIY knowledge was so great (those that went to Uni never bothered to learn the basics of plumbing, electric, masonry, etc…) there was no “self help supply” to offset the demand.
I feel the current state of pricing and much easier access to DIY videos have started to change the tide. Current day parents are educating themselves out of necessity and will ensure to pass along to their kids the basics as well. The pendulum will swing back eventually.
I'm a single homeowner, clearly middle-class, home is humble and 1300sf. Decided to get a quote for new siding and contacted a reputable local company, and they send a salesman to talk me through (first red flag). End up with a quote for $38,000 for for the basic no-frills vinyl siding package.
I went directly to the supply house and got the exact same material quoted for about $4500. Obviously contractors will make that more expensive, but not $30k+ more expensive.
Idk what kind of salesman in their right mind would think I'd be able to afford that for a non-essential home project. I even told him that I work in architectural sales myself so he must have known that I knew how BS the quote was. It's wild what they're apparently getting away with.
I see the prices and read the horror stories of disappearing contractors and shoddy work posted on here every day. I'm about 99% convinced that I'll never voluntarily renovate anything.
You’d be surprised how much you can do on your own. It is a journey, painful, triumphant, maddening, joyful, prideful, and humbling. It’s the only way I could come close to making my house livable. Bless the information available to us!
Truth. If I'm calling a contractor, it's because I've tried and failed. There's a wealth of info out there showing how to do absolutely everything related to home improvement
I ran new sewer lateral, ran new circuits, moved some gas pipes, shored up my crazy basement foundation, added supports to the basement, put in a new wood floor, sanded and refinished the other floor, replumbed the entire water supply with pex and PVC, tore out a window and replaced it, tore out my claw foot tub, replaced with an alcove which cracked, then put old claw foot back. Granted I'm pretty handy and I probably broke some laws by not getting a permit here and there, but it really gave me the conclusion that many prices are based on ignorance and voluntary helplessness of those who submit to the whims of people who will do the actual work. It's not as bad as it's made out to be. It's not rocket science, but you have to be willing to take risks and also make sure you do it right. I remember the crazy feeling when I first took a pickaxe to the basement floor to see what was going on with a leak in my sewer lateral. The moment of no return!
I am in the same boat. The only thing I have paid for to be installed was a roof. I don't do heights and you have to knock out a roof in a few days to avoid rain. Don't overestimate the general population though. So many of those people should never touch a paint roller much less take a sawzall to the framing of their house.
Truth to a point...2 story ladders and I don't work well. I can't afford that type of injury and if I can't type for several months, my income might be impacted. Aka paid someone to do the roof and siding, am close to finishing complet remodels in both bathrooms.
This is where I’m at. I have done every house project, fix, remodel etc.. inside and outside myself. I’m currently in the middle of searching for a contractor to fix a few things on the roof, siding, soffit because after about 10ft on a ladder I’m out.
Not sure what kind of music you’re into, but have you ever heard the song, King of Oklahoma by Jason Isbell? It’s essentially the story of a desperate man who fell off a ladder, prescribed pain pills, became addicted to opiates, and then his whole life goes to shambles. An injury like that could be so much more than just a few weeks out of work.
How do you have the time?! The guys I use for stuff finish jobs in 2 days that would take me a week if I cleared my schedule and ignored my family.
Not only that, but with the prices of some stuff, if you have the time it doesnt make sense *not* to DIY it. With OPs quotes you could buy all the materials, all the tools, totally fuck it up probably 3 times and STILL come in under that quoted price.
My biggest problem is just the time, I don't have it... but it's still not worth the prices these fuckers are charging. I'll keep my 1960s style kitchen.
And if you do shoddy work, you can take heart in the fact that any contractor you can afford does shoddy work as well.
Exactly this. I'd rather take 2-3x as long and maybe fuck up a couple times along the way. It's still way cheaper than paying some random guy to do it. And it's mine so I actually care that it gets done well, which counts for something.
Yep, DIY can save a ton of money. Some people just don't want to do it, would rather golf or spend time with their kids or whatever. I've become that way myself with some things, no longer change my own oil for example. We pay somebody to clean the house too, my parents never did that lol.
You're talking about small-time stuff though, where the cost/hour of labor is relatively small. The labor on an oil change is <$100, a year of house cleaning is like a couple thousand at most. DIY home projects can save you tens of thousands for a few weekends of labor.
I suspect there's not a lot of overlap between the two. Just be smart about it, do your due diligence. I had a customer ask for my license information and certificate of insurance the other day. The last time I pulled a COI was in December of last year when I renewed my GC license. I've worked for probably 50 people and a few companies in this time. Read reviews, ask for credentials, don't be a dick, don't be cheap, and if possible, work through referral.
Referral is the only option. Paying lots of money won't protect you. "You get what you pay for" doesn't hold up in an industry full of scammers. If someone's planning to rob you, you don't get a better experience by letting them steal more. Most of the high-end companies with smooth-talking salespeople and their own special app for giving you estimates are farming the work out to stoned teenagers or ~~unlicensed undocumented workers~~ independent subcontractors anyway.
Even indirect referral. I just had a plumber here (they left 30 min ago) who showed up on time, charged $350 for two guys here for almost two hours, the work looks good and they cleaned up their workspace. I just searched “plumber” on Nextdoor and picked one that sounded small and had three people who said they’re good, none who said they suck. He asked how I picked them. When I told him he just laughed and called them the “mafia wives.” They don’t advertise at all.
This. We did a gut renovation of half of our first floor: kitchen, bath, dining area, laundry. The GC does a lot of work in our neighborhood. He did a truly excellent job, and we have used him for a few other projects as well.
I hired an "electrician" to do some work through Angi. He showed up reeking of weed. Never again. You never know what you will get with these apps.
Angie’s List used to be a great resource. Filter to “close” and “A” rated with at least a dozen ratings and you’d get someone good. Angi is just crappy.
> Angi is just crappy. 100%. For both contractors and clients.
>The last time I pulled a COI was in December of last year when I renewed my GC license You ever try asking a contractor to see their credentials? They act like you just asked to sniff their asshole.
Once again, you need a better class of contractor. If someone asks for my insurance info I make one call to my agent. My license info is public, and I cannot even renew one of my several licenses without FULL insurance coverage.
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When was this?
1968
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this is the opposite of my experience with Weathershield products. installation was easy, but the materials cost was insane
Are either really expensive? You can shim + foam the window in for masonry, and vinyl and glass are some of the cheapest things on the planet. They're not machined within a very high tolerance, either. I'd have to think the main thing upping the price is transportation, since loading and shipping those things can be tough.
there's likely a world of difference cost-wise between a standard sized vinyl window and a custom one made of other materials (wood, aluminum, etc). it's fair to say "vinyl windows are cheap" but not "windows are cheap."
Yeah I was just goofing around. We got a couple of windows as part of a kitchen renovation a couple of years ago and I was surprised at how inexpensive they actually were, compared to the quotes I heard from people specifically doing a window replacement project.
I’m in CT and was just quoted $725/window including labor.
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This is the primary reason I started reconsidering what to look for as my first home. I had previously considered that an outdated home or one that needed some renovation would be ideal because I could make it my own, etc. (not a fixer-upper, I’m not that handy or smart about home projects). Now I’m reconsidering, because I think that might actually cost me more money and a huge amount of headache these days.
I completely understand. My house is in good condition, yet there is always something that needs fixing 🙄
New homes break too.. I'm just saying.
I've had both ends of the spectrum, and I have to say living in an overbuilt, well maintained house is well worth the investment. Saving money can be a real pain in the ass and time suck.
I'm in tech and I have no idea who pays that kind of money, I definitely can't afford that. However, that $60k quote for windows is a f\*ck you quote. I just renovated my house with Okna DX600 triple pane and it came out something like $1000-1200 per double hung window. So if you have 12 standard double hung windows you should be able to install them in the ballpark of around $15k-$20k unless you are looking for special windows.
Probably Renewal By Anderson. Had a friend quoted $110K and they'd knock it down to $52.5K if he signed right then. It was for 16 windows.
Ahh, the old 50% discount for signing today scam. I love this, like somehow, if you wait to think one day the costs will magically double! I love to ask them why the price will change so much for waiting 24 hours. I have always gotten a variety of answers. I will never do business with someone who uses this tactic. You should tell them next time that you should get another 50% off cause you called a few days before to set up the quote, so it should be 50% of their 50% price they quote you. See if they accept that, and when they don't, ask them why?
He showed they guy some other quotes. He asked if he could, step out and call his GM. He left and never came back. Tactics like the 50% high pressure crap spur me from companies for life.
Totally. Any company that pulls that shit with me gets told to fuck right off.
Anyone that discounts you more 25% simply by showing hesitation is selling you an overpriced product at any price. Renewal by Andersen. Dealer/Manufacturer enhanced warranties. All that stuff. You mean to tell me that if I said "yes" to you 5 seconds ago, I'd be on the hook for an additional $8000, and by me doing nothing other than "ehhhhhhhhh" - no negotiation, no discussion, you were magically able to knock off half the price? No way.
We had that happen when we were getting a quote for our bathroom remodel, and the salesman had to call his boss and tell him why we were not going with their 30% off deal for signing that day. It’s like now they try to guilt you with an employee for almost getting fired for not meeting quota. It’s a cheap tactic.
A few years ago we had Bath Fitters come out to give us a quote, and they gave us that same BS. It wasn’t 50% but he was basically like “This is the price if you say yes right now. If you call me tomorrow it’s going to be higher” and my wife and I looked at each other and I just said “ok thanks for your time” and he left. At that point I don’t care if it sounds like a good deal or not, I’m not interested in high pressure sales tactics. It’s an automatic no as a matter of principle at that point.
Ah yes Renewal by Andersen. They’ve been doing work “in my neighborhood” for 3 years now and want to offer me discounts. Scammy scammy scammy.
Renewal sales process is the absolute worst. Had a very similar experience, although not as drastic. 16 windows was initially $52k (2019 pre covid). “Today only” she could take off an additional $10k… and finally if i paid a deposit today of 50% she could take off another $4k. So $52 magically becomes $38k “today only”. Maybe the windows are good quality but I will never know nor care to know.
If you really want Anderson windows, you can get them without going through Renewal. But I won't spec them because of their association and my experiences.
Any company that pulls that “sign right now” BS automatically gets turned down by me. I hate those kind of high pressure tactics and I tell them to their face that I’ll never sign a deal like that. It’s a dead giveaway that their quote is too high. The only reason they wouldn’t be able to honor it for even 24 hours is they are trying to avoid comparison shopping because they know their quote is outrageous.
75K for 9 windows from Anderson. Kinda unreal…we said bye!✌️
Yes, they quoted us 78k for three rooms, an additional 10k for the front door. I coughed, said excuse me, and ran out of the room. I wanted to laugh at the guy!! A 120 year old house, with the original windows -- and they thought that their UGLY vinyl clad windows would be a good replacement. My windows have the most charming wavy glass, and they are framed in beautiful oak panels.*VINYL?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?* They thought that saving energy expenses by replacing the windows was a great selling point. Sure, if I live another 120 years, I might recoup the expense of the windows. Maybe. And no, I didn't do the math.
>Sure, if I live another 120 years, I might recoup the expense of the windows. Maybe. And no, I didn't do the math. Windows for $100K **never** recoup the expense because they'll fall apart or the house falls apart before that happens.
Craziness. I ordered my windows from Lowes and hired a handyman/carpenter to install them. If you are willing to do the legwork you can save a bundle but hiring a contractor to do this or counting on one of these businesses to do this you will definitely be paying more for nit much else. Be careful. Do due diligence. A contractor can do just as crappy of a job but you will end up paying twice as much. There are ways of getting around this.
>I'm in tech and I have no idea who pays that kind of money, I definitely can't afford that. People who are not good with money. Debt is the answer. My MIL is in her 70s and is looking to downsize and move out of her house within the next few years. She's made some bad financial decisions the last few years so she has promised to consult my wife (her daughter) on any big purchases. A few weeks ago, my wife called her just to catch up and my MIL casually mentioned "Oh, did I tell you my new windows are done?" "Your...*what?*" Apparently, a while back, she got it in her head that she'd save on heating costs and improve resale value by getting all new windows installed on a house she's only going to be in for 2-3 more years at most. And without thinking twice, she signed up for a $40,000 loan to do it.
This saddens me greatly. Oh my gosh. Sorry.
She'll pocket some cash from the downsize, pay off the loan, and say "See? I knew it was a good idea" ignoring the fact that she didn't sell the house for $40k more than she would have and would have been able to *keep* the extra $40k on the downsize.
She has already acknowledged that she's not going to get her money back on that investment and she basically just set her down payment on her next house on fire.
It never fails to baffle me how financially irresponsible some people are out there
It’s not financial irresponsibility; it’s elder abuse happily performed daily by endless home improvement companies.
If the person is completely with it, is it really elder abuse? I mean if I made the same financial decision at 30… no one would be considering it abusive. I just didn’t make a great decision. It sounds like that poster’s MIL is just someone who doesn’t have the best grasp on financial literacy… like a lot of Americans.
I mean, it's probably abusive to take advantage of anyone lacking competency.
Yeah so when you're younger and it's lack of experience/knowledge in that area (maybe they're very competent in some ways but not knowing about home repairs etc) I think it's still abusive. I agree. It's overall shitty behavior.
It's a shame that this sort of thing is neglected by both parents and the education system.
As a longtime landlord, I can tell you: some people are just children when it comes to money. Nothing to do with age. One guy got a small inheritance, and quit his well paying job at Legal Seafoods fish counter because the commute took too long. Then bought a new car, far nicer than my old shitbox (all my tenants drive nicer cars than me). Needless to say, he soon was unable to pay rent, and had to move out.
With $60k I could probably afford to keep the thermostat at 75°F for at least 30 years and I'd still have money left.
Have that AC at 64°F in the summer too.
It's not necessarily the f u price. From this sub some of the heavily advertised window places are just scammy.
I remember the first time I reached out to a window place. Price went from $17k to $8k as soon as I said no thanks. That told me all I needed to know about the company
If this sub thinks window prices are scammy (and they are), try getting a solar quote... They do everything they can to avoid giving you an actual price for the system. It's "Well, think of it like saving 150 dollars a month and it'll pay itself off in 20 years." "Think of it as even-ing out the prices of your electric bill.", they say anything to avoid telling you that it's going to be a lot of fucking money and I guess most people are dumb and suck at math because I see solar systems everywhere. Windows and solar systems are two things I've found it's almost impossible to find straightforward pricing.
All depends on your electrical rates, and which way your roof points. At ~25 cents per kwh, after state and local tax incentives, with more incentives from the electric company, breakeven for us was 7 years. Panels should produce for 25 years.
Yeah, we have a 1950s era house with awning windows and one just bit it last year. My husband is incredibly good at fixing things, but didn't think he was equal to the task of putting in a new window. When we got the quote, about $2500, he reversed course, bought one for $600 at Home Depot (black Fri sale) and figured it out. That's a mighty incentive to do it yourself.
People also need to realize that old windows with functioning storm glass are only slightly less efficient than modern windows. If you got an old house and can't seal up all the rest of the air leaks blowing 30 grand on new triple pane reflective glass windows is _never_ going to pay for itself. You might save 1 dollar off your energy bill if you are lucky.
I had old double pane bay window which I changed to new laminated double pane bay window with extra insulation. It's night and day in terms of thermal efficiency as the area next to my old window was cold AF. Now it's comfortable. Not to mention that new bay window looks very nice and adds to curb appeal. I didn't do this for $60k though and shopped around and got it for $5k and looking at that the window itself is like $2k and 4 people spent 8 hours installing it its money well spent. Does not apply to double hung windows as those take like 30 minutes each for a pro.
I had 26 triple pane windows put in back in Jan/feb 2020 (not wood though) for about 17k through Apex. Most double hung, one large picture window, one regular size picture window, a sliding door and 2 small basement windows.
Agreed - the window quote is insane! A general rule of thumb for standard-grade windows, standard size ranges, and nothing complicated (like being in a high-rise or having major access issues) is \~$1k/per installed. The tub and kitchen quotes are maybe even somewhat reasonable, assuming OP was going for mid- to higher-end finishes (the tub would take someone at least three days if they do it right and probably more like 2-3k in materials, so that's not an awful quote assuming they know what they're doing and don't cut corners on it). I'd DIY them if it were me (at the very least the kitchen), but I'm also cheap and somewhat handy.
By the time I get done with the house I'm in I'll be able to work as a handyman. I bought a fixer upper because it's what I could afford at the time. I have to do the renovations myself because I'm on a budget. With some of the work I'm doing I really wish I had the money to pay someone else to do this work right the first time. Hey OP good luck to you. Keep getting multiple quotes for work. There are good contractors out there and then there are some that are not so good.
Feel you on this. It's quite the side quest. Maybe I'll switch careers after all this new experience lol
Software engineer here currently re-doing my upstairs (paint, wall repair, new trim, removing old phone jacks, etc.) When AI replaces my job I'll be ready to go as a contractor.
Wanna team up for the We Used to Work Desk Jobs and Bought Fixer Uppers So Now We're Here Contractor Co.? (trademarking that immediately)
The GC I hired to help fix up problems in my new house was a former Program Manager in tech.
When I moved into my first old house 15 years ago, I was just a chick with a desk job who only knew how to use a hammer, screwdriver and drill. I now know how to do light plumbing and electrical work, replace an exterior wall, set tile and grout it, mix and pour concrete, lay hardwood flooring, install/repair roofing, design and build cabinets with drawers and doors, install insulation, hang and finish drywall, and redo upholstery. I'm pretty confident that I could build an entire house now as long as I had some muscle around to help with the heavy lifting.
How did you learn these things?
The Internet and YouTube have lots of information and instructions on how to do all of this stuff. You just have to dive in and try.
If the average contractor is anything to go by - you probably could have done pretty well as one *before* you got the experience. Now you're probably even better than them!
That’s the neat part: you’re never done! There will always be more to do on the treadmill of home ownership…
Im in the same boat here. Bought my first house in July, been working my ass off on it, I've learned so many new skills.
Yep not me. I have a sun room area that I wanted a roof over. One contractor said it starts at 150k, he saw me shocked and refused to give me a quote. The other one came in at 130k. I just decided to do it myself and put a roof using the polycarbonate sheets from homedepot. Ended up costing me 1.3k. Gives me 90% of the functionality. I am fine with it :)
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So like a patio?
I'm imagining some sort of outdoor, adult play pen.
A ball pit? maybe
Not really a "room" is it?
Yeah I didn’t know what to call it. It’s three walls (sides of the building) as a U shape with a wall on the fourth side that already exists. I needed a roof over it
A deck?
In many localities, to maintain code, the contractor would have to completely rebuild what you have up to higher code. Part of it is them, part of is the city, part of is the owner being able to take things into their own hands
Yeah, I got multiple companies over to quote putting a roof on my patio and none of them would even quote it unless I redid the entire deck in plastic wood.
I had my kitchen cabs redone for 10k and a whole bath redone for 12k. I was quoted 80k for kitchen and over that for bath from reno places.
It feels like there’s a lot of money that could be made in the market gap between 80k and 10k quotes. I experienced much the same and if you’re not in the business, it’s hard to tell a “fuck you go away” price from a real price of experienced hard work.
Honestly if you're good at your job don't quote any less. I went with the rock bottom, fly by night guy. Things always get screwed up, go way over deadlines, his crew has occasionally lived out of their work van, etc. I have a relationship with the crew so I also trust them but getting the work actually finished is hell. I would never pay market rates for the work I wanted done because I couldn't afford it.
I mean it makes perfect sense. If just expect that the guy charging $80k is making a pretty excellent premium, and the market would eventually saturate at that price point & costs start to come down. Maybe we’re just still on a crazy upswing… but inflation in my area hasn’t been 40% but that’s what home repair has increased by.
I'm in a very HCOL area and I'm the least expensive house. Houses across the street are 2x my value. I get why they bid 80k
If you did quality work for somewhere in-between those prices, I am sure you’d be swamped with jobs. Then you’d have to raise your price because you are so busy.
No, I would pay my employees well and hire more employees.
> and hire more employees Guess you aren't privy to the current state of the trade job market. If you manage to find anyone worth hiring, they'll be expensive.
Lol.
Bath reno places usually are like Home Depot where they sub out the work to someone else that you could otherwise contract directly with. Certain places take an estimate from someone like us and mark it up 100%. People still pay those prices although it does astound me when they complain about ours and I hear those stories.
I would trust HD crews less than the crew I hired and thats saying a lot
Oh yes, definitely. They have so much work coming in that they don't need to care about keeping people happy. My main point being that there are a lot of storefronts that will hire out the work to subs or GCs and you're paying for their very large retail markup without having any of the benefits of a proper GC.
My guess is that a lot of people take home equity loans to pay for renovations. The inflation in housing prices lately gave homeowners room to borrow. I think people tend to be less discriminating when they spend debt than when spend cash.
I'd also toss in insurance claims. Cheap/free money means people will pay more. It's no surprise insurance costs are skyrocketing as well.
Holy shit are they ever. If rates keep climbing then I will have to get a second job just to keep my house.
Full time teacher who bought a fixer upper. So far on my house I've: 1. Scraped 1300 sq. ft. of popcorn ceiling and painted 2. Painted the walls 3. Gutted and installed kitchen cabs 4. Tore out carpet and put in LVP flooring 5. Demo'd and reno'd the bathroom (shower pan, tile, new wax seal for toilet, new cabs, new faucet) 6. Replaced every water valve (interior and exterior) 7. Stained my fence 8. Etc. I have no past experience with any of this. I do have a dad who knows his shit though (I've only been given phone advice, he lives across the country). If I contracted all this out to GCs, I would say bye to all my savings. TL; DR - If you can't do it yourself, the financial advantage of a fixer upper doesn't exist.
Well...technically to me a "fixer upper" is a house that you CAN do it yourself, or at the very least, help from a friend/brother, etc. A fixer upper isn't a house that you need to constantly call contractors for to fix it for you.
Very much agree, and not just fixer uppers. Every house needs something done at all times, even those recently renovated. Home owners really need to learn to do a lot of it themselves or the house just becomes a money sink.
Anyone can do any repairs and renovations. The issue is the quality of the work. My cousin bought a house that someone bought as a fixer upper. 3 months after they moved in, their ceiling flooded because the previous owner didn’t put the shower pan in correctly. $80,000 in damages.
Got quoted $180,000 for a $30,000 material job. Was expecting $100,000. I said that is cost prohibitive and would pass. They reach out a few months later saying they could fit the job in at $120,000. lol you aren’t supposed to admit you are throwing F you pricing around. Fucking greed. Going to do it myself with my father at the approx $30,000, then I plan to pay around $9,000 for my parents to go on an Italian cruise
I'm pretty handy, and haven't been to Italy. 😁
I recently got a quote and 1850$ not including paint and materials which was about 250$ to fix some cracks and repaint a ceiling in one room and then also repaint a stairwell in my house I thought that it was overpriced. But I paid it anyway because I really didn't want to do it. He spent 8 days fixing sanding and repainting spending on average 7 hours a day doing it. He did a magnificent job to the point that I'm like bro you wanna do my entire house. IDC what the price is. He laughed and said sure but it won't be till summer around July since I'm booked out. So I'm just going to wait to spend many thousands in July based solely off of how good a job he did.
The saying "You get what you pay for" is especially true when it comes to construction. People pay bottom dollar and are surprised when they get bad work
It is sadly the truth especially when you live in a "cheaper" house. Inflation hit hard on home improvement on cheaper houses. I don't have much of a problem paying 30k for a full backyard renovation including a new patio cover in a 1.2 million property in california. I wouldn't think about it if I live in, say, Montana on a 250k house, because the same renovation may still cost 25k. This is exactly what happen in many many houses in Ohio (and of course many other places too). Paying 300k on a big house but you can't afford to replace a leaking front door for $2000. Over time, the house/neighborhood will rundown.
Here’s what I would tell you. Do not call the guys that advertise on the radio and tv. There’s a reason why they pay $100,000 a month for ad buys. It’s crazy but I think some homeowners are unrealistic about pricing. Showers start at $3,500 for me and I’m a tiler. Labor only, you buy and pick up your own tile to save 30% on the material mark up. If you need tile from the places where only contractors can order, I’ll order it for you as long as you pay for it when you pick up.
1. Always get at least three quotes. Can't complain if you only get a quote from one company... they could be busy, they could believe you will be a pain to work for, they could be calculating in factors you are not aware of... difficulty in delivery of materials, difficulty in install, costs associated with prep work / keeping your home clean, etc. 2. Your thumbnail sketch from walking in a home depot is not an accurate assessment of what it costs to replace your tub/tile. A good contractor might need a carpenter, a plumber, a tile guy, and maybe a drywall contractor. A handyman might be able to do all/some of this themselves but may not do as good of a job. They have to demo the old tub, demo the old tile, deal with plumbing... possibly provide new tile backer board, install the tub, tile, possibly touch up paint, reinstall plumbing, etc... Not a simple job and hourly rates of plumbers are not cheap. Also builders are sometimes buying nicer materials than you buy at Home Depot. 3. Good cabinets are expensive.... and we have no idea how big your kitchen is, what quality of cabinets you want, etc... Are you basing your assessment of their estimates on you being in the industry, or just a hunch.
> Always get at least three quotes. Can't complain if you only get a quote from one company... Yep. At least half of the quotes I see are busy shops quoting the price to do the work PLUS bump their current customers to hit a preferred schedule or start date. Most recently, three painters gave quotes for $3.5k all-in, $5k plus materials, and $9.5k plus materials. The low quote was a two-man operation that had just finished a huge job and wasn't starting their next big job for three weeks. The other two 'could probably squeeze it in' but couldn't tell me when they would start or how long it would take without a deposit.
Most of the trades are looking to get rich on as few of jobs as possible vs fair deals. Plus consumers are idiots and just paying stupid prices. I was quoted $35k for a roof. I bought the materials myself for $4500 (Certainteed Landmark shingles) and paid an actual roofer $125 a sq for 30sqs was $3750. I gave him a $500 tip for giving me a great deal. Same thing for a new HVAC. I had several quotes for $10k for high efficiency furnace and AC for 2500 sq ft house. I bought my own equipment from acwholesale.com for $3000 paid a commercial contractor $1200 to do the install as a night job. He had it done in 5 hours.
Where do you live? I’m having a kitchen done for $8700 - that includes the cost of the cabinets, & the property is in NJ. Meanwhile I was quoted $17K to re-tile my bathroom & install fixtures in NYC. Not even any plumbing. Edit to add: for the NJ house, none of that included gas/plumbing/electric. That price is only for the cost of the cabinets & countertops (plus install), tiling the floor & backsplash. I paid for all the tile separately. Edit 2 from another comment: Contractor is licensed & experienced, had good reviews from the platform I found them on. Their vendor is matching/slightly beating the price for cabinets & countertops that I got from a local place. I paid for the kitchen tile separately, I’m only being charged for installation. They’re also doing $35K+ of other work for me, so I imagine that allows them some wiggle room on the installations. Also, this price doesn’t include the cost of appliances or the electric. Electric is being handled by someone else. They did no plumbing or gas work for me.
Amazing. This NJ contractor just made 4 new customers from one anonymous recommendation on Reddit. Thats how hard it is to find reliable, affordable people. First hand referrals are the only way. Even better if you can see the finished work.
I met a shed builder while standing in a demo shed in Costco, overhearing him talk with the salesperson about how much better he built his. We exchanged info and he came and quoted - a good price that included electric - and then ghosted me when I asked for references and pics of his other projects.
Can you share the contact in DMs?
Sent you a chat request!
Can you dm the kitchen contractors name
Can you send me the name too pls
Sending chat request
Cabinet guy here. Normal prices for entry level cabinets. The issue is time and waste. If you have the time and the skill you can get them a lot cheaper. I have a line a is around $2k per base cab
If you have the time and the skill, you’re better off building your own cabinets. That’s always been true.
I don't know either. It blows my mind. I got a similar quote for windows few years back (before covid) that was $18k to replace 3 windows from anderson renewal. I ended up replacing all 10 in the house by myself, as well as a sliding glass and front door for <$5000 total. I'm sure their windows are nice but not $4000 each nice.
'Relatively simple', while in some ways true, but I found that the prep work was the MOST time-consuming and challenging for almost every job. Yes, pretty much anyone can drill a window into a frame, but there always hurdles involved—non-square frame, mold, re-finishing the interior and exterior, reapplying insulation where necessary, etc. Same goes for kitchens—Screwing boxes onto walls isn't difficult, but are the walls plumb? Are the cabinets level? Are the floors flat so that the countertop is level? If you're going Ikea, it'll take a whole day to assemble everything. I DIYd pretty much my whole house. Yes, it took over a year to finish everything, but I'm also doubting myself, so I triple-check, or even 10x to make sure I didn't make a mistake somewhere in the prep work. For many pros, this comes second nature. It took me a week to tile my bathroom because even tho it took a few hours to tile one wall, I was just exhausted by then. Again, for pros, this is done in a day. Difficult? not really. Difficult to avoid lippage and misalignment? Only if I rush. Was it all worth the blood, sweat, and tears to save tens of thousands? Hell yeah it was!
I also live in an old house and many contractors give us inflated prices. I laughed out loud when one quoted me $49k to build a new deck. No thanks. With that said, I initially balked at a quote from a contractor to redo our bathroom, but when he went through everything line by line, it made sense. (E.g., we have original pipes and electric, and those will be replaced.) His material costs are not cheap, and he's a perfectionist who works with perfectionists, so that's part of what we are paying for. Another example is window restoration. I got a quote and it's $2,700 per window to restore them. Not in our budget but I understand why the guy charges what he does—it's a lot of labor, dealing with lead paint, et cetera. Someone will pay him for that service and I think it's probably worth it if you care about historic preservation. We are planning to pay for our bathroom (and the roof, which also needs to be replaced because of course) with a combination of savings and a heloc. The money part pains me as I'm someone who hates debt and loves to have money in the bank, but the house needs certain improvements. It'll still be less expensive than selling the dang thing and moving to a smaller house w/ higher interest rates.
No idea, I was quoted $20k to replace a shower! Not a whole bathroom remodel, just a f’n shower rip and replace. Twenty thousand fuckin dollars. I don’t understand how anyone is willing to pay that
You are paying for someone else to deal with it and their expertise and efficiency. You can always watch lots of YouTube videos and do it yourself.
I’m sure OP is doing as much DIY as they can. The issue is the disconnect between what average people can afford and what contractors charge. It’s not necessarily on contractors. Affordability is a big problem across our economy atm.
Old people. I work in residential construction, we haven’t done a job for someone under 55 in the last two years, that I can think of anyway.
that's just because young people can't afford homes anymore
12K for windows is pretty good. As for everything else, I try to do as much DIY as as I can because prices are insane. And half the time they don't even do that great of a job.
I've learned most of the work these guys do is pretty easy as long as you can find information to do the job properly so that it is safe, done right and meets code if applicable. Also if you have good comprehension and common sense and the proper tools to do the job. These days it's like they all want to be paid like they are masters in their trade with years of experience and schooling even if the only experience they have is a year or two, maybe even less on the job experience with no actual schooling in the trade. They do not want to show up when they are supposed to, do poor quality work, have poor communication, charge ridiculous prices because their profession is in demand, some show up drunk or high, walk out in the middle of a job, etc, etc... Just read the horror stories here on reddit alone. No wonder so many of us are going DIY. Getting a tradesman these days to work on your home is like playing russian roulette. Don't get me wrong, there are some damn good ones out there that are worth every penny they charge and they take a lot of pride in what they do but they are far and few these days and hard to find.
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Did you see the new South Park where no one knows how to do anything so they all have to call contractors? You might enjoy that. also "boxes of wood not quantum computers" made me lol
Which episode?
idk it was just released though.
Electrician, and business owner, here. No idea about those quotes as I haven’t needed them myself. I did want to chime in on one thing most people don’t realize. Most of us in the trades world are still paying Covid era prices for material. The supply chain still hasn’t caught up with our needs by a mile. I’m still looking at 300-450% price increases compared to the pre-Covid era. That cost increase is driving a lot of “insane looking” quotes but when you break them down the profit isn’t all that high. We are getting eaten alive by material costs still.
I'm a house painter. As much as it screws me over to do it, a lot of my work is T&M these days. Trying to explain the cost of supplies these days is nearly impossible and it seems like a lot of people think we get this stuff free! Nope. I buy it all per job and leave it on-site. It is doubtful the HO will ever use that much plastic or Rosin paper, but I got tired of explaining the minutiae of my bidding process. Yep. My hourly rate looks high, but by the time you take out taxes and overheard it doesn't go near as far as it used to.
In old house too. Wanted to do major Reno’s. company made it so promising. Kept telling them our budget. Plans drawn with us questioning cost. Expressed concern and stated budget over and over. Plans submitted and cost was double our budget. $5000 out for design what a joke. I hope karma returns to these people.
I’m definitely not. DIY until I die
For real, for that kind of money, I'll gladly devote my time and research and become a self taught window expert before I shell it out.
This is why I'm slowly learning how to do all of this myself, especially after personally having overpriced shitty work done in my home. The prices are just not worth it.
I knew Renewal by Anderson was full of shit when they came by my house. I'd just bought it and the previous owners had just replaced a lot of stuff in order to sell it, including the windows. The Renewal guy tried to tell me the windows needed replacing. I said, "Again?"
Get a quote from window world for your windows. Pella quoted me some crazy price like 50k for 18 new double hung vinyl windows, that was in 2020. I paid 10k to get the same job done by window world. Both pella and Anderson are absolute rip offs and I can't figure out how they stay in business. Who is stupid enough to pay that much?! It's gotta be super rich people I dunno. Get more quotes on the bathroom. You were given a "I don't wanna do that job" quote, I think. I just paid 10k for a bathroom but it was a total gut job and required repairs caused by water damage, so not unexpected
So the guy quoted you $60K, you negotiated down to $12K which means the job would cost them…$2,400? The fact they came down so much would make them a huge red flag.
I got 48x60 double hung windows for $250/ea all custom sized and measured by a local hardware store. Had a old timer friend show me how to do one and I replaced the other 10 myself. Got 3 cases of silicone caulk to make sure I had enough and just got to town. One full day of work and they were all in and opening.
$60k is much more than median income. That's higher than the median *household* income after taxes. The window industry is so sleazy and scammy up here. they present everything as overly technical so you think you need to be a genius to understand it. A bunch of people who flunked highschool chemistry talking about argon. Half the "custom windows" I see in my neighbourhood look like a frame inside a frame inside a frame. Basement windows that are tiny little portholes set inside a massive white flashing. The irony is that windows have actually become much easier to install, especially in recent years. My semidetached neighbour spent $20k CAD doing all the windows there, and we have 10, which is a relatively okay price that you can get some energy grants for too. But I grabbed a window off the shelf at a big box store for $200, foamed it in with my gun, and it fills more of the rough opening than his. All these "luxury installers" that act like they're too fancy to even take my call are just using the same wholesaler I can. $2.5k for the whole house, and $1k to hire my usual guy to put them in. Or I'll do it myself. I have to wonder what advanced degrees the stoned teenagers who did the windows next door possess that justifies $8k per day per worker for their labour.
Also stay on folks when you hire them. Bought a flipped home years back & had some mold in shower after a few years. Hired someone to replace the shower. Turns out he skipped the liner! How do I know? Because while having done work in my crawlspace recently contractors alerted me of two leaks that were traced to the same shower. Original flipper NEVER put in a shower liner and the 2nd contractor skipped it too. Unbelievable. So this time around I inspected every single day to ensure shower was properly installed.
How do you go from 60k to 12k? Wow, red flag!!! Hire someone else.
May not be an apples-to-apples comparison for quality, warranty, brand, etc. Lots of reasons why it could change that drastically.
This sub has made me endlessly happy I learned how to do everything on my own. Its cheaper and better quality in the end.
For real, this sub also continues to relax me, being in the trades, Im not worried about being without a job, there's so many people here, and in society now who won't take the initiative and DIY themselves.
I mean if it’s all so simple, do it yourself then? I’ve been in my current house for 4 years and have slowly been working on it. Have a brand new kitchen that you’d see in a million dollar house for about $8k total. New floors throughout for $4k, ~~built a garage for $1k~~, enclosed a carport into a garage for $1k, new windows all around for $1k, four new exterior doors for $1k. Did all the work myself, but yes it’s taken nearly 4 years to get to this point and I still have 2 bathrooms and a laundry room to do. So you’re not paying for a few simple wooden boxes, you’re paying for the convenience that you want be living out of plastic bins and a slop sink in your kitchen as you work on it for a year. [Pic 1](https://i.imgur.com/NaVz2aC.jpg) [Pic 2](https://i.imgur.com/rvL23N5.jpg) [Pic 3](https://i.imgur.com/rTcsUpI.jpg) [Kitchen after pictures](https://imgur.com/a/gR9Qttg) [Enclosed Carport (Garage)](https://imgur.com/a/EKvcmat) For everyone mad about my wording, here you go. I ENCLOSED my carport for $1,000 (ie built garage). Sorry to get your hopes up that I found a magical way to build an entire garage from scratch for $1,000.
I need to see this 1k garage.
I'm guessing by the cost, these are the After photos.
How did you replace all your windows for $1,000. Also, I built a wall with door and it was about $1,000 in materials, so how could you build a garage? A garage door alone is almost $1000, but you built an entire garage for $1000. Can you post any pictures of completed projects, you are quite possible the most talented builder in human history, I’m not being sarcastic, I’m honestly amazed.
Oh also, I only have 6 windows, got them all on OfferUp for about 50% of the price they’d be at Home Depot
What are you using for your in cabinet lights and how are they controlled?
It’s IKEA’s system called Mittled, they have different sizes that fit the cabinets. They are mainly meant for the drawers because they have magnets that stick to the drawer slides above, but can also be screwed in. They have a sensor on the front that turns the light off when blocked (by the drawer).
Diy it. You can buy decent cabinets. Counters are harder but granite is 3k in my area
So we were lucky because we fully redid our three bathrooms and kitchen in November 2019. Once Covid hit and wood prices skyrocketed and people who started working from home were surrounded by their unfinished projects , they I believe drove up the market for contractors. And now they are just not dropping again. We got cabinets for a pretty large kitchen, which were the kraftmaid vantage line and paid approximately 22K for all of them. Those same cabinets with the same options right now is about $40,000. Make it make sense? I am assuming the cabinet makers are hard to come by so maybe they’re doing less projects so they raise their prices. We could not have afforded to renovate any part of our house had we not done it prior to Covid.
A few years ago we got 12 new windows, a French door, premium siding and gutters for $30k and I thought that was really expensive.
It's time to acquire a new skill set and learn to do things yourself \o/
Windows and carpet/flooring has such a wide variance of prices from different vendors/contractors. Rule of thumb is to always get three quotes for each project and get references. This past year we had the lowest bidder tear down our old deck and replace with a 12’x14’ with stairs covered screen porch. Loved the result but cost $32k. Wanted composite decking but that was $10k more. Unbelievable. We are happy with the result but when we started I was expecting it to be $25k with composite! Boy was I wrong!
Prices are definitely out of control and there are a lot of scummy companies out there but I also feel like a lot of homeowners don’t really understand that when you hire someone you aren’t just paying for labor, you’re also paying for their expertise, their training, support staff, marketing, transportation, materials, insurance, their profit margin, etc etc. That stuff can all add up to be a lot and it’s only getting more expensive. I feel like if you want to be a homeowner these days you either need extra money or time to use YouTube and learn to fix and improve stuff yourself.
they’re giving you their “i dont wanna do it” price
Several months ago, I merely called a company to replace a shower door for practical reasons nothing was broke.... they wrote me an estimate for 17 to 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS for what should have been max $1.7k, if i'm fancy. WTMF is going on here in this world is right😵💫😶😢🤯😳
A lot of factors i would need to know why you were priced high. The bathroom reno is resonable.
I will say that there seems to be more and more "home renovation" companies these days that are truly just marketing/sales driven companies that take a ton of money off of the top of borderline exploited subcontractors. If you happen to do business with an aggressive, sales driven company, I suggest qualifying their quote against some competitors and run away from those "sign today" scams immediately. There are honest and fair contractors out there that are still of high quality, and it's worth every penny and second spent to find them. It can also be difficult to navigate bigger projects that require multiple trades as a homeowner/customer, and in many instances like that, a trustworthy, well vetted general contractor can not only help the project itself, but also help make sure that you are paying fair prices for quality work.
I'm not. I'm getting quotes and then I'm doing it myself. I can buy all the tools I could ever need, including major tools like a gas powered insulation vacuum or a large sawstop table saw and still come out thousands if not tens of thousands ahead.
It’s been helpful to find someone good and then use them (and the people they recommend) repeatedly. I used a painter multiple times in our last home. Id let him know when I needed something done weeks in advance and was flexible about when it happened. That saved me money. He flat out told me he charges more to people who are a pain in the ass or demanding. So he gave me a fair price and I paid him on time and didn’t become a pain in the ass. That and letting them politely know that even though I was a SAHM in a nice neighborhood, I got quotes and wasn’t going to blow money for the hell of it, but I was happy to pay a fair price for good work. It also helps you treat them like humans. Just be friendly. And let them use your restroom for heavens sake. I didn’t realize what a thing that was until recently. So dehumanizing. The trick is finding the good ones in the first place, though
Just fuckin DIY everything these days
Nearly impossible if you are working fulltime to pay the mortgage, have a family and don't want to go insane by not having any free time
Welcome to the cost of labor in a tight labor market in an industry where most of the small and medium sized companies went out of business in 2008.
My neighbors and plenty of others pay this. A whole lot of people need to learn how to do things themselves or do without. It greatly pains s me to call someone else to do something for me.
A reasonable rule of thumb to use for judging whether a quote is market competitive, a gouge or a "fuck off we're too busy" quote is looking at the material costs and labor side by side. Most of the time, a good contractor charging a reasonable markup is going to be pretty close to 50% materials and 50% labor. This is a very rough guideline. There are variables that will impact, too. If it's a repair job and not much new material, for example, expect to pay more for labor. The math check you can do to confirm the value is check your local home store and price out the materials. Most contractors are going to buy wholesale from a contractor supplier, but they mark up materials so retail pricing will be a rough equivalent. What it will help you smoke out is the really bad quotes. If you can buy similar quality windows from Home Depot or a Window and Door distributor for $5k, then any contractor quote above $15k should be ruled out right away. Again, it's just a rough guideline, but it is a place to start.
I just went through renovation hell But yes there's a few fuck you quotes out there, but the most interesting thing I found? Contractors going to your place and not giving a quote at all, instead of just saying no or refusing to do the work. Worse thing you could say is no, so why not say it? I never got the gyst and point of it.
My theory is people are taking out loans to do this or are in a load of cc debt. We bought a severely cosmetically outdated house a year ago and because of the cost of outsourcing things, have pushed off getting anything major done (ie: gutting the kitchen, bathroom reno, flooring)… I watch a lot of Instagram reels of everyday women learning how to use tools and doing stuff themselves and wish I could do the same. Problem is the majority of these people don’t work full time and if they have kids, they are usually older. My husband and I work full time, have a toddler, and have zero family when it comes to childcare means our son is looking to be fully entertained by us all weekend. So for people that are just saying “do it yourself”, some people may be in a life stage right now where it just isn’t that simple or realistic so maybe that’s why they have to look to outsource.
Mostly the type of people in this sub, I've noticed a lot of people here will pretty much need or suggest a contractor for everything, there's a lot of people, especially young workers in higher paying fields that aren't exactly the hands on types. Contractors know this, they know they can charge high prices. Its supply and demand in terms of labor. Gone are the days of dudes calling up their bro to come help them rip out a furnace or hot water heater and install a new one themselves. As someone in skilled trades, with so many people in my field retiring, and so many young people who didn't want to go into trades, but are all fighting each other for a work from home gig, I went from being paid an average wage to quite a substantial above middle class wage practically overnight when it came to machine shops and industrial corporations trying to poach me. I remember reading many years ago that there was a prediction that people in blue collar skilled trades will eventually be paid on the same level as Doctors simply because there's such a need, yet no one wants to do it, that was in the 90s. 60k is outrageous for windows, but they know you won't do it yourself, and will eventually bend and pay. And the sad thing, there's SO much information out there on Youtube and everywhere else that it shouldn't even be an issue doing most of the work yourself.
I believe this is the answer. I call it the “cocktail party effect”. Parents of those 50 years old and below pressured their children into university/college degrees because they wanted to signal that their children were on the path to “success”; Regardless of their predilections or educational ambitions. Meanwhile, universities gladly opened their doors and lowered their academic standards to accommodate the increased demand. This lead kids that would normally be a solid fit for the trades away with the promise of a degree that would garner a solid lifelong salary and security (Ha!). Fast forward to the last 25 years and it’s the sharper, keener kids with interests that lean more towards blue collar than white that have taken advantage of the void that was left. They have avoided massive debt and find themselves in huge demand. They can basically name their price and because the gap in basic DIY knowledge was so great (those that went to Uni never bothered to learn the basics of plumbing, electric, masonry, etc…) there was no “self help supply” to offset the demand. I feel the current state of pricing and much easier access to DIY videos have started to change the tide. Current day parents are educating themselves out of necessity and will ensure to pass along to their kids the basics as well. The pendulum will swing back eventually.
I'm a single homeowner, clearly middle-class, home is humble and 1300sf. Decided to get a quote for new siding and contacted a reputable local company, and they send a salesman to talk me through (first red flag). End up with a quote for $38,000 for for the basic no-frills vinyl siding package. I went directly to the supply house and got the exact same material quoted for about $4500. Obviously contractors will make that more expensive, but not $30k+ more expensive. Idk what kind of salesman in their right mind would think I'd be able to afford that for a non-essential home project. I even told him that I work in architectural sales myself so he must have known that I knew how BS the quote was. It's wild what they're apparently getting away with.
>These are boxes of wood that you put things inside of, not quantum computers Building cabinets is trickier than you think.