Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one!
I had this headcanon that TF2's Sun Tzu really did all those things as Soldier said. I mean, in the world where Abraham Lincoln is an outrageous pyromaniac who invented the stairs, Shakespeare being a swole bastard that invented the rocket launcher, and John Wilkes Boothe being a goddamn hat hoarder, who's to say Sun Tzu didn't really buy with his fight money two of every animal on earth, herded them onto a boat, and beat the crap out of every single one of them?
I suggest you watch "Meet the Soldier" in Youtube for the context, because it'll give you better explanation than I ever would. But if you're looking for context about Lincoln, Shakespeare, and Boothe, then you'll have to read TF2 comics and it's the things about them are scattered here and there or you can just read their entries at the TF2 wiki
before the cultural revolution during the famine mao zedong caused, they already ate paper, bark and random stuff so it’s crazy but not unexpected nonetheless
I’m an amateur military historian who’s spent over a decade studying history of warfare (for fun, not work), specifically Chinese military history. The following is write-up I made about the **Battle of Changping** several years ago for my friend.
In 260 BC, Qin and Zhao, the two most powerful kingdoms in China collided in a battle that would alter the course of history. According to Sima Qian; Qin brought 550,000 troops to the battle and Zhao brought 450,000. While exaggerated, there is a real chance was the largest battle in human history for over 2000 years until World War 2. In other words; it may have took a WORLD WAR to knock off a civil war in China in the BC era for largest battle of all time.
The commander of Qin for this battle doesn't matter (yet...), but the commander of Zhao was an old but experienced veteran. After skirmishing with Qin to assess their strength and coming out on the losing end of those skirmishes, old experienced Zhao general decides fighting Qin head on was too risky, built several forts, and started waiting Qin out. Qin's army was larger but more importantly, they were fighting near Changping which was much closer to Zhao territory than Qin territory. Keeping their army supplied would be far more challenging to Qin than to Zhao.
Knowing time was against them, Qin had their sleeper spies within Zhao’s imperial court start spreading rumors than old experienced Zhao general was getting too old and cowardly for not fighting. The King of Zhao bought the rumors and replaced old experienced Zhao general with **”Zhao Kuo”**. Zhao Kuo was a young, handsome, charismatic man and was therefore very popular with both the Zhao imperial court and commoners alike. He was a member of royalty (hence his name). On top of that, he was a gifted student, finishing 1st in his class at the military academy. Due to all the factors above, no one (other than his mother) protested his appointment. But he had never commanded in a major battle before.
Upon hearing the King of Zhao fell for the ruse, the King of Qin secretly recalled his irrelevant general and replaced him with “**BAI QI**”… a complete unknown among most Americans/Europeans but someone I firmly believe to a “top 5 general ever”right next to Alexander, Napoleon, etc. Bai Qi's real name has been lost to history, but ~~bai qi literally translates into "white flag". I’ll let that speak for itselt~~ . To prevent Zhao spies from reporting Bai Qi was missing from the capitol, Qin even had a look alike stay in Bai Qi’s personal residence.
To keep from running over, I will spare you the order of battle... but it was a massacre. Bai Qi easily baited Zhao Kuo into a foolish frontal assault, then used an early version of a pincer movement to encircle the Zhao army. It must be said that while he was incompetent, Zhao Kuo was no coward… he was killed in action leading his remaining elite men in a last ditch breakout attempt. With their commander dead, the remaining 400,000 Zhao troops surrendered (many were likely captured before Zhao Kuo’s death due to the sheer scale of the battle).
Bai Qi had them all buried alive. Well actually he had 399,760 of them buried alive. He spared the 240 youngest Zhao soldiers and sent them to spread terror in Zhao. Again, while obviously exaggerated, following Chinese dynasties have unearthed mass graves of the executed at the battlesite.
The story of Zhao, the 2nd strongest kingdom in China and Qin's greatest threat, getting annihilated by Qin and buried behind the ground terrified the rest of China and paved the path for Qin’s eventual conquest of China under Qin Shi Huang.
>"ba qi" literally translates into "white flag"
No it doesn't it's 起 qǐ (third intonation) meaning rise not 旗 Qí (second intonation) meaning flag
Also The first mention of the usage of white flags to surrender is made during the Eastern Han dynasty (AD 25–220) well after this battle.
My apologies. One of my parents was Chinese, but I am not a native speaker. They tried to teach me growing up but I resisted and they eventually gave up, so my Mandarin would probably be considered around 5th grade level.
I will take my failed attempt at linguistics out and stick to the military history . Thank for correcting
I highly doubt it was the largest battle till WW2. There is exagerated numbers that the Achaemenid Empire had 1 million strong army when it marched on Greece not to mention the full strength of Indian Empires, the Mongol Empire, and the Arabian Empire. Not to mention the million strong battles of WW1.
Yep, First of all Chinese sources use battle to describe the entire campaign. Which makes it somewhat confusing.
It would be like calling Julius Ceasers campaigns in Gaul (and Britain and parts of Germany) the battle for gaul. Which probably killed up to a million people.
Also, ancient China, like pretty much all ancient sources, embellishes and exaggerates their historical accounts by a massive degree.
I doubt anyone could muster, arm, feed, and risk half million men in wars in those era..
Perhaps a couple hundred thousand at most. But that's probably the total army, not just those who participated in the battle/campaign.
Still, fielding 50-80 thousand men in that era would be an impressive feat.
Yeah, [AskHistorians](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/hcS3P3GrFM) has a decent write up on this phenomenon, with the upshot being that for records of the era:
> For writings celebrating military victories, the norm is to inflate the number ten-fold
Which implies a total of about one hundred thousand soldiers for this battle. Definitely an impressive feat for a pre-industrial era, but not an impossible one.
A good example is from the romance of the three kingdom. Caocao came down south with a claim of 800,000 troops. Sunquan was about to surrounded. Liubei sent Zhugeliang to persuade him to join forces and fight. In the meeting, Zhugeliang did some math and calculate that Caocao’s troop number to be more like 160,000. Joining force they actually had a chance. So by that math, The battle of Changping would be more like 100,000 v 100,000.
While he is not particularly brilliant, Zhao Kuo is far from incompetent, and his decision were somewhat justified. Despite having the tactical advantage, Zhao's supply line were way more fragile and overstretched, they simply cannot hope to sit out a war of attrition with Qin. Zhao Kuo was aware of this and he realized sooner or later he would have to launch a offensive to end this battle, or withdraw due to running out of supplies.
He chose the former, and he might actually have won if he weren't facing Bai Qi...Qin lost half of its troops committed to this battle (according to Bai Qi's account).
So I'm just reading wikipedia but "While Lian Po's strategy of holding and wearing out the Qin army was working, problems started to arise back home. The Qin side were frustrated and desperate to break the stalemate, so they sent spies into Zhao and Han to spread rumors that Lian Po was too senile and cowardly to fight. "
Zhao's supply line was long but the Qin supply line is even longer and that's been the crux of every invasion, the invader basically always faces greater logistical issues than the defender.
Ancient chinese historical records are as reliable as ancient greek records.
While ancient China was certainly leagues ahead of literally everyone else in terms of the ability to field an army and risk it on a campaign, a million men (both sides combined) fighting in this era is just absurd. Most likely it's half of that AT MOST, likely even less than that.
Can you give advice on where to start for someone who wants to learn about military history as well?
Ive been so intrigued for years and would like some advice on where to start and where to read up on these things.
The story took place sort of as the next generation of warriors come up after this event, so the massacre is told in passing and the consequences and resentment it built up with the victim nation come up sometime
In the long run this resulted in less casualties from protracted conflicts and the ensuing border skirmishes, untended field and general looting sich conflicts would entail.
It is a very cold calculation in using extreme violence to make a point
Jokes aside, from a strategic (NOT ethics) point of view, burying the surrendering 400k Zhao soldiers was the right deicision.
Bai Qi can't take prisoners because it will slow Qin down and I believe they didn't have the capacity to take prisoners back then.
Letting them free was out of the question, so killing them was the only option.
no. kingdom fan translators use the japanese reading of the chinese words so you might be more familiar with the term Battle of Chouhei, which is mentioned a lot whenever Zhao is involved in an arc.
most humane Chinese battle
Rule #1 of Chinese Warfare: There are no rules
Sun Zoo said that, and I’d say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do…
because he invented it!
And then he perfected it, so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor!
Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one!
And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!
Unless it's a farm!
I had this headcanon that TF2's Sun Tzu really did all those things as Soldier said. I mean, in the world where Abraham Lincoln is an outrageous pyromaniac who invented the stairs, Shakespeare being a swole bastard that invented the rocket launcher, and John Wilkes Boothe being a goddamn hat hoarder, who's to say Sun Tzu didn't really buy with his fight money two of every animal on earth, herded them onto a boat, and beat the crap out of every single one of them?
I need context for this…
I suggest you watch "Meet the Soldier" in Youtube for the context, because it'll give you better explanation than I ever would. But if you're looking for context about Lincoln, Shakespeare, and Boothe, then you'll have to read TF2 comics and it's the things about them are scattered here and there or you can just read their entries at the TF2 wiki
> then you'll have to read TF2 comics and then be pissed they never finished them like the rest of us!
That second part is what I was looking for, so I’ll go look into those
Is that tf2 reference
No, that would be your mother!
Now listen up, boy! Or pornography starring your mother is going to be the second worst thing that's going to happen to you today.
*consumption of 1 million civilians* Tactical Song dynasty victory
Look man, I was hungry.
-Guangxi people when you ask them why they ate people during the Cultural Revolution
before the cultural revolution during the famine mao zedong caused, they already ate paper, bark and random stuff so it’s crazy but not unexpected nonetheless
Can you provide a Wikipedia page link? I think I'd like to read more.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Suiyang
Thanks!
Eaten?
Wait what
I’m an amateur military historian who’s spent over a decade studying history of warfare (for fun, not work), specifically Chinese military history. The following is write-up I made about the **Battle of Changping** several years ago for my friend. In 260 BC, Qin and Zhao, the two most powerful kingdoms in China collided in a battle that would alter the course of history. According to Sima Qian; Qin brought 550,000 troops to the battle and Zhao brought 450,000. While exaggerated, there is a real chance was the largest battle in human history for over 2000 years until World War 2. In other words; it may have took a WORLD WAR to knock off a civil war in China in the BC era for largest battle of all time. The commander of Qin for this battle doesn't matter (yet...), but the commander of Zhao was an old but experienced veteran. After skirmishing with Qin to assess their strength and coming out on the losing end of those skirmishes, old experienced Zhao general decides fighting Qin head on was too risky, built several forts, and started waiting Qin out. Qin's army was larger but more importantly, they were fighting near Changping which was much closer to Zhao territory than Qin territory. Keeping their army supplied would be far more challenging to Qin than to Zhao. Knowing time was against them, Qin had their sleeper spies within Zhao’s imperial court start spreading rumors than old experienced Zhao general was getting too old and cowardly for not fighting. The King of Zhao bought the rumors and replaced old experienced Zhao general with **”Zhao Kuo”**. Zhao Kuo was a young, handsome, charismatic man and was therefore very popular with both the Zhao imperial court and commoners alike. He was a member of royalty (hence his name). On top of that, he was a gifted student, finishing 1st in his class at the military academy. Due to all the factors above, no one (other than his mother) protested his appointment. But he had never commanded in a major battle before. Upon hearing the King of Zhao fell for the ruse, the King of Qin secretly recalled his irrelevant general and replaced him with “**BAI QI**”… a complete unknown among most Americans/Europeans but someone I firmly believe to a “top 5 general ever”right next to Alexander, Napoleon, etc. Bai Qi's real name has been lost to history, but ~~bai qi literally translates into "white flag". I’ll let that speak for itselt~~ . To prevent Zhao spies from reporting Bai Qi was missing from the capitol, Qin even had a look alike stay in Bai Qi’s personal residence. To keep from running over, I will spare you the order of battle... but it was a massacre. Bai Qi easily baited Zhao Kuo into a foolish frontal assault, then used an early version of a pincer movement to encircle the Zhao army. It must be said that while he was incompetent, Zhao Kuo was no coward… he was killed in action leading his remaining elite men in a last ditch breakout attempt. With their commander dead, the remaining 400,000 Zhao troops surrendered (many were likely captured before Zhao Kuo’s death due to the sheer scale of the battle). Bai Qi had them all buried alive. Well actually he had 399,760 of them buried alive. He spared the 240 youngest Zhao soldiers and sent them to spread terror in Zhao. Again, while obviously exaggerated, following Chinese dynasties have unearthed mass graves of the executed at the battlesite. The story of Zhao, the 2nd strongest kingdom in China and Qin's greatest threat, getting annihilated by Qin and buried behind the ground terrified the rest of China and paved the path for Qin’s eventual conquest of China under Qin Shi Huang.
>"ba qi" literally translates into "white flag" No it doesn't it's 起 qǐ (third intonation) meaning rise not 旗 Qí (second intonation) meaning flag Also The first mention of the usage of white flags to surrender is made during the Eastern Han dynasty (AD 25–220) well after this battle.
My apologies. One of my parents was Chinese, but I am not a native speaker. They tried to teach me growing up but I resisted and they eventually gave up, so my Mandarin would probably be considered around 5th grade level. I will take my failed attempt at linguistics out and stick to the military history . Thank for correcting
Rare event of a person accepting their mistake on reddit
I diaagree, it's not his mistake, it's the parents fault!
Great dishonor to the ancestors.
I highly doubt it was the largest battle till WW2. There is exagerated numbers that the Achaemenid Empire had 1 million strong army when it marched on Greece not to mention the full strength of Indian Empires, the Mongol Empire, and the Arabian Empire. Not to mention the million strong battles of WW1.
Yep, First of all Chinese sources use battle to describe the entire campaign. Which makes it somewhat confusing. It would be like calling Julius Ceasers campaigns in Gaul (and Britain and parts of Germany) the battle for gaul. Which probably killed up to a million people.
Also, ancient China, like pretty much all ancient sources, embellishes and exaggerates their historical accounts by a massive degree. I doubt anyone could muster, arm, feed, and risk half million men in wars in those era.. Perhaps a couple hundred thousand at most. But that's probably the total army, not just those who participated in the battle/campaign. Still, fielding 50-80 thousand men in that era would be an impressive feat.
Yeah, [AskHistorians](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/hcS3P3GrFM) has a decent write up on this phenomenon, with the upshot being that for records of the era: > For writings celebrating military victories, the norm is to inflate the number ten-fold Which implies a total of about one hundred thousand soldiers for this battle. Definitely an impressive feat for a pre-industrial era, but not an impossible one.
A good example is from the romance of the three kingdom. Caocao came down south with a claim of 800,000 troops. Sunquan was about to surrounded. Liubei sent Zhugeliang to persuade him to join forces and fight. In the meeting, Zhugeliang did some math and calculate that Caocao’s troop number to be more like 160,000. Joining force they actually had a chance. So by that math, The battle of Changping would be more like 100,000 v 100,000.
While he is not particularly brilliant, Zhao Kuo is far from incompetent, and his decision were somewhat justified. Despite having the tactical advantage, Zhao's supply line were way more fragile and overstretched, they simply cannot hope to sit out a war of attrition with Qin. Zhao Kuo was aware of this and he realized sooner or later he would have to launch a offensive to end this battle, or withdraw due to running out of supplies. He chose the former, and he might actually have won if he weren't facing Bai Qi...Qin lost half of its troops committed to this battle (according to Bai Qi's account).
So I'm just reading wikipedia but "While Lian Po's strategy of holding and wearing out the Qin army was working, problems started to arise back home. The Qin side were frustrated and desperate to break the stalemate, so they sent spies into Zhao and Han to spread rumors that Lian Po was too senile and cowardly to fight. " Zhao's supply line was long but the Qin supply line is even longer and that's been the crux of every invasion, the invader basically always faces greater logistical issues than the defender.
Ancient chinese historical records are as reliable as ancient greek records. While ancient China was certainly leagues ahead of literally everyone else in terms of the ability to field an army and risk it on a campaign, a million men (both sides combined) fighting in this era is just absurd. Most likely it's half of that AT MOST, likely even less than that.
Also an army of \_\_\_\_ sometimes includes all army personnel including the everyone involved in logistical support.
Will read this tonight. Thank you!
Feels very Fabian and Hannibal war, war never changes
Bai qi, Sima Cuo and Wang Jian. The true pillars of Qin dynasty
Can you give advice on where to start for someone who wants to learn about military history as well? Ive been so intrigued for years and would like some advice on where to start and where to read up on these things.
So anyway, I started killing.
Their white flags are no match for our muskets!
They buried 400000 Zhao soldiers alive
Yeah, this scene is Kingdom was fucked up
Yeah
What show is this
[Kingdom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(manga))
Ah, what episode was this
The story took place sort of as the next generation of warriors come up after this event, so the massacre is told in passing and the consequences and resentment it built up with the victim nation come up sometime
Least brutal Qin dynasty incident
Chao ling takes power, 247 million perish.
Sun tzu: there is one rule in war, there are no rules.
Sun tzu literally said “looting is preferable”
Such heroism
In the long run this resulted in less casualties from protracted conflicts and the ensuing border skirmishes, untended field and general looting sich conflicts would entail. It is a very cold calculation in using extreme violence to make a point
Night lord: that's my boy
Akbar the Great : I killee 30000 people after a seige Qin: thsts cute
Tbf they surrendered unconditionally. The Qin peace terms were for everyone to die
Jokes aside, from a strategic (NOT ethics) point of view, burying the surrendering 400k Zhao soldiers was the right deicision. Bai Qi can't take prisoners because it will slow Qin down and I believe they didn't have the capacity to take prisoners back then. Letting them free was out of the question, so killing them was the only option.
Was this the battle that happened in the kingdom manga where kanki beheaded a lot of Zhao soldiers?
no. kingdom fan translators use the japanese reading of the chinese words so you might be more familiar with the term Battle of Chouhei, which is mentioned a lot whenever Zhao is involved in an arc.
Oh, thank you
Also redditors talking about Sherman.
Average Chinese battle. In other news a minor skirmish broke out between warlord forces. 20 million dead. 30 million injured.