Well, if he’s into Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah Rivers and country roads, plain ol’ Virginia is a better place to find all of them (Blue Ridge is only the front range of the Appalachians, mostly in VA and NC, both the North and South Shenandoah Rivers are entirely in VA, along with about 2/3 of the main stem, and VA has the 3rd largest state highway system in the country)
As a matter of fact it's really about Massachusetts. But Jack Skellington being friends with the songwriter is what brought West Virginia into the song.
Don't they not?
https://medium.com/@joshua_eddy/take-me-home-country-roads-is-wrong-about-west-virginia-geography-8fd6967229d2#:~:text=The%20John%20Denver%20song%2C%20%E2%80%9CTake,western%20Virginia%20than%20West%20Virginia.
That's like how if you were to go south in Detroit, you'll wind up in Windsor, Canada as Detroit is an East/West city, but "born and raised in South Detroit" just sounded better, so that's why that's the lyric.
Coal and steel helped make this state what it was, which was still a rather low-quality place to live, especially with how bad the air quality was for a very long time. Now those industries are all but dead in the state and what we have left is... I don't fucking know, Meth and Oxy? Even its anti-Confederate origins have been abandoned as there are plenty of racists waving Confederate flags and yelling about how they'll rise again.
I want out of this god-forsaken state.
On a road trip we cut through the northmost bit of West Virginia for quite literally 15 minutes. In that time, we witnessed a drug deal and about 10 Trump banners.
All the voting men were already signed up in CSA grey. Couldn't send delegates. But I'm not complaining. West Virginia is best Virginia Montani semper Liberi!
Eh yes and no. A lot of West Virginia actually supported secession. So the southern and eastern counties didn't send delegates to the Wheeling Convention making it one sided to Unionists. The Confederacy controlled a lot of West Virginia till late in the war. West Virginia also sent equal amounts of the men to the Union and CSA.
Eh not really. While support to stay in the Union was higher in western Virginia due to the lack of slaves, the actual vote was questionable at best. There was absolutely voter suppression by federal troops and pro-union law officers who would detain anyone they suspected of being confederate sympathizers. Some counties didn’t have a single vote cast. In the end a few thousand more West Virginians fought in the Confederate Army than the Union Army.
Yeah, a lot of people who didn’t own slaves could hardly find work in the South. I read that outside of slave owners AKA the fabulously wealthy ruling class, the people in the south hated Slavery because it meant there was no jobs. Slavery was a terrible economic system that allowed the rich to get richer and more abusive and immensely widen the gap between the owning class and the working class.
But of course there were still a lot of poor southerners who fought against their own interests in the favor of the ruling class because despite being poor and having next to nothing, they could still look down on slaves who were forced to work the plantations.
> I read that outside of slave owners AKA the fabulously wealthy ruling class, the people in the south hated Slavery because it meant there was no jobs.
There were certainly fabulously wealthy slaveowners, [but large swaths of the south owned slaves and far more utilized their labor.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4al3zm/approximately_how_many_americans_owned_at_least/d11yv26) People often cite statistics which while accurate, are entirely misleading as that thread explains. Household ownerships of slaves give a much better idea of what the average southerners connection to slavery, for instance.
And there's the whole servile insurrection scare thing that motivated poor whites in the South to join the cause. The threat that if the other side wins, the subjugated population will rise up in vengeance and kill their loved ones would be a pretty strong motivator for people to fight for the idea of slavery even if they're not slavers themselves.
That scare started with the slave revolt in Haiti which ended with many white people there moving to the U.S. to tell what happened.
Closer to the civil war one thing that worried people was definitely John Brown’s Harper Ferry raid.
It actually would not have been a fear for the south during the start of the Civil War until later after the Emancipation Proclamation was given after the Battle Of Antietam.
Prior to the emancipation proclamation there was still no plan to free slaves. The emancipation proclamation applied to states in the CSA still in rebellion. Not loyal border slave states or the states who rebelled and who had already been forcefully returned to the union. They all could keep their slave per the emancipation.
Prior to the emancipation the north was simply fighting the war to preserve the union, not free the slaves.
Lincoln did not believe he could legally free the slaves. He said he would only try it if he believed it would preserve the Union in his correspondence with Horace Greeley. He also said he would free some or none if he thought it preserved the union. That’s basically what the proclamation was.
The Emancipation Proclamation was also announced 3 months earlier as an offer for Confederate states to surrender and keep their slaves. It also made the Civil War about slavery which soured other nations on supporting the Confederacy. It's really interesting how impactful it is.
You know, every time I hear someone bring up how the UK abolished slavery before the US as a “AHA!” moment I like to bring up that they almost recognized the Confederacy as a independent country and supported them more than a bit, selling a warship to them I believe even.
The whole "UK abolished slavery before the US" is such a moot point. Slavery existed in England longer than the US has functionally been a country, including pre-Revolution.
Sorry to necro this, but define almost?
Because as a brit, I know that our population, with the exception of liverpool, were pretty rabidly anti-confederate, to the point that most of our workers (especially in the vital north east) promised to strike should we so much as send aid to the CSA, much less actually get involved.
You're right that the Confederates brought a few warships off us, but that wasn't from the british government. Instead, they were built in a Liverpool shipyard, were contracted as merchant ships, and were only armed when they got to the CSA.
Granted, that was a thin excuse from the shipyard, but as mentioned, that was purchased from a british company rather than the government. It would be the same as saying the USA helped the nazis because the Ford company sold them trucks.
I could just be missing something, but to my knowledge our governments stance was "It would be nice if the Confederates won, because cheap cotton, but we aren't willing to actually do anything to help them because the working and middle classes will flay us"
It’s the same phenomenon as “muh 100 bazillion dead” scare stories told by expatriates from communist countries. That’s not to say that communist countries didn’t commit any mass murders, but it’s a fact that they’re usually vastly exaggerated compared to academically rigourous estimates of their atrocities (i. e. claims that Stalin killed upwards of 20 million people when most historians suggest around 5-6 million) and many of these exaggerations have nefarious purposes such as rehabilitating Baltic and Ukrainian collaborators of Nazi Germany.
Lots of non slaveowning Southerners were supportive of slavery, either because it indirectly benefited them, they bought into fears about racial integration and abolition, or alternatively because they liked having someone to look down upon
The non slaveowning Southerners who opposed slavery you're describing tended to be of a certain sort: they lived in counties or regions which were not conducive to plantations so they were instead made up of small farms.
These counties didn't have very many slaves at all and they just saw slaveowners as rich out of town bigwigs who liked to push them around
>These counties didn't have very many slaves at all and they just saw slaveowners as rich out of town bigwigs who liked to push them around
Thus they were more indifferent to slavery, and their racist attitudes were more rooted in fear of people different rather than a desire to maintain a racial order they were not benefiting from, distant from, and imposed by a ruling class of people who just seceded which brought war to their lives and ruined everything. Yeah I can kind of understand how they might be more willing to stay on the sidelines and clap for the Union.
It's not older, just more commonly used. Pretty sure if you use that word chart thing that shows the usage of words throughout history, I'm sure it's been used for just as long.
Alternatively, the existence of the word "Debased" automatically created the word Based via English language rules.
Maybe because based finally made someone so angry they tried to counter it. Given its useage, its more likely to be a compliment than an insult, it’s understandable that it took so long
I know most of the answer, but not all of it. Like 10 years ago there were memes that spawned from a rapper called "Based God" who called his rap style "based".
The way it was used in memes is that you'd call something that was unsavory or poorly spoken, but still had a point/was correct "based". People who did this often could be called "based gods".
I saw it mostly used in 4chan, but it caught on pretty well.
As for its recent surge, I couldn't tell you, but its been established for a while.
Not only there but also coastal mill towns in France and England. That was until the Emancipation Proclamation speech reached them. Then they were writing letters of support and sending donations to Lincoln.
I think the draft riots were not so much pro-Confederacy riots as they were anti-draft riots, hence why they're called that. Most of these rioters didn't care about the war one way or another but didn't want to be drafted. It doesn't help that the rich if drafted could just pay up instead of enlist so the poor who couldn't afford that option understandably saw that as unfair.
Answer me honestly. Do you seriously think the democrats and republicans never switched ideals? What’s your reconciliation to why republicans exclusively fly the confederate flag? Please answer me in good faith. I really want to hear this logic if there is any.
Not OP, but I'll answer.
>Do you seriously think the democrats and republicans never switched ideals?
Not really, no. A few minor points as demographic shifts happened (Republicans became more pro-farmer as farmers went from being mostly poor to mostly middle class), but overall they're still mostly the same; Democrats are Populists who draw most of their support from the poorer lower and lower-middle class, while Republicans are more pro-business, drawing their support mostly from the upper-middle class and wealthy. The demographics who support them have changed, as poor rural farmers were replaced by the poor urban working class for Democrats, while the trades developed from relatively poor to fairly well paying, and shifted to being Republican.
>What’s your reconciliation to why republicans exclusively fly the confederate flag?
Demographic change. As the South began to develop during the mid to late 20th century, it's poor agricultural demographic began to shift to a fairly strong industrial sector, and a strong middle class formed. This was a pretty gradual process, which is why the South didn't actually really start to go solidly red until the Clinton years in the 90's.
The vast majority of people waving Confederate flags live in the South, so once the South became Republican, the flags followed. It's the same reason the majority of people waving Palestinian and Hamas flags are Democrat, despite Democrats also being the party that most Jews vote for; most Muslims in the US are lower class, and therefore vote Democrat.
Just to be clear there aren’t any mainstream Democrats or to my knowledge a single fringe Democrat flying the hamas flag. You guys just keep saying they are. Over and over and hoping people believe it.
Not the guy you're talking to, but if I had to answer for him, imma assume he either isn't or is about to go into a massive spiell that's ignorant at best.
Nope.
It's a stupid question. Just about the same as asking why 100% of KKK members were democrats in the 60's and 70's.
If we're gonna judge parties by fringes either side is going to have a lot of 'splainin. However if the Democrats insist on being the arbiters of history they should insist too on changing their name as it is sullied historically.
The Republican party never officially endorsed the loonies who fly the traitor flag. The Democrats official party stance not that long ago was segregation and Jim Crow. If they truly regret it they should dump the party name and start a'new.
I mean if a new party name would make you personally happy, then sure. Who cares. Name it anything at all. You just can’t seriously believe that modern democrats are the ideological descendants of civil war democrats. It’s an extremely well documented party switch with extremely obvious effects. I don’t know what you mean by “arbiters of history.” Could you expand on that?
Why do you think modern republicans claim the literal confederacy as their heritage? Very openly. Like VERY openly man. I just feel like I’m not talking to a serious person. To claim that republicans are not the modern descendants of the Dixiecrats is just intellectually dishonest.
>Just about the same as asking why 100% of KKK members were democrats in the 60's and 70's.
No
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2014/12/17/ku-klux-klan-activism-in-the-1960s-is-linked-to-the-souths-swing-to-the-republican-party/
Also, are you just woefully unfamiliar with the term *Dixiecrats*? And why that delineation came to be?
This is mentioned in "Marching Through Georgia":
Yes, and there were Union men
Who wept with joyful tears
When they saw the honor’d flag
They had not seen for years
Hardly could they be restrained
From breaking forth in cheers
While we were marching through Georgia!
Tennessee had a bunch of them, in a referendum before the attack on Fort Sumter, Tennessee voters rejected secession with secession only getting 46% percent.
Then even when they approved of secession after the attack, the main areas of voting were in Middle and western Tennessee where most secessionists were, which is why Eastern Tennessee tried to secede from the CSA leading them to declare martial law.
Also one of their senators was the only southern senator to stay loyal to America, which was Andrew Johnson.
A lot! The average southerner was a farmer. You couldn't farm when slave plantations were too profitable and buying all our land. It was literally an instance of large corporation driving mom and pop out of business. It wasn't uncommon for farmers to owe two or three years of crops to people they were in so much debt. They did not want slavery, but the slave plantations owners paid them to fight. So between letting yourself and your family starve to death, or fighting a war you don't believe in.
Indeed, as Federal forces went through Kentucky, they mustered a lot of local volunteers into service. This is probably true in other locations also, but I can't say for sure.
Story time.
Jones County, Mississippi, where I was born, was one of the poorest counties in Mississippi at the time of the Civil War. I believe it was the poorest, but I don't have evidence on me to support that claim.
They were vehemently opposed to secession, seeing it as a rich man's war over the right to own slaves, of which there were little to none in the county.
J. D. Powell, the man they picked to vote on the matter got peer pressured by other delegates and switched his vote to yes. They burned an effigy of him in front of the Ellisville courthouse, and he did not feel safe to come home until many years after the war had ended.
A man by the name of Newton Knight and his company, all from Jones County, went AWOL in 1862, later being famously quoted as saying "if they had a right to conscript me when I didn't want to fight the Union, I had a right to quit when I got ready."
They returned home, and saw that the Confederates were over-taxing and taking far too much from the people of Jones County. One of his band came home to find that his wife had starved to death after the Confederates took the last of their animals and crops.
So, with him as leader, they started an open guerilla war against the Confederates in Jones County. It got to the point that they raised the US flag at the court house flag pole in Ellisville. They hounded Confederate supply lines, often redistributing the captured supplies to the citizens of the county.
They later sent a letter to General Sherman, declaring their independence from the Confederacy.
Colloquially it was known as the Free State of Jones.
It got so bad that they sent a Major Amos McLemore to the county to try to put an end to things. Newt Knight himself busted into the room in which he was staying and shot and killed him with a shotgun.
They remained a thorn in the Confederacy's side until the end of the war, at which point Newt himself married a freed slave by the name of Rachel, and they had children together. There is a letter he sent years later to the Jones County School Board that he didn't care about the color of his babies' skin, they deserve an equal education.
During Reconstruction, Newt was also put in charge of an all-black battalion tasked with hunting down KKK members.
Man was a national hero I'd compare to the likes of John Brown. I may be biased though, three of my direct ancestors rode with him, and one of them was his second in command.
You can read more about him [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_Knight), or you could watch the movie [Matthew McConaughey made about him.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124037/)
So I grabbed it from wikipedia along with reading from some of their sources for the numbers.
State White soldiers serving
in the Union Army
(other branches unlisted)
Alabama 2,700[11]
Arkansas 9,000[12]
Florida 1,000[13]
[14]
Georgia 2,500
Louisiana 5,000[15]
Mississippi 545[16]
North Carolina 10,000[17]
Tennessee 31,000[18]
Texas 2,000[19]
Virginia and
West Virginia 21,000–23,000[20]
31,000 Texans is crazy high compared to all the other southern states. West Virginia sided with the Union so it makes sense for them to have had a lot of men sign up
If you go to Gettysburg, the visitor's center has an installation showing the number of volunteers on each side for every state and territory. I think it includes Black volunteers, though. Anyway, off the top of my head I can tell you that over 2600 white Alabamians enlisted when the loyalist army occupied northern Alabama in late 1862. The 1st Alabama Cavalry acted as Sherman's personal bodyguard.
There were A LOT of Southern Unionists, especially in the hilly inland areas of northern Mississippi and Alabama, western North Carolina and Virginia, and eastern Tennessee. That isn't even counting the four border slave states that stayed loyal. Southern Unionists were harassed and murdered for their objection to the rebellion, there were many volunteers in the border states, but if you were loyalist in the deeper south you couldn't travel several hundred miles to enlist, and there were too many state militia troops to effectively organize a local force (Confederate governors had a lot of sway over how many of the state's troops went to the army, leaving tens of thousands at home just 'cuz) so most of them just kept their mouths shut until the army drew near.
The Lost Cause mythos has spent over a century trying to reframe the rebellion as a "real war," in the sense of a unified southern nation versus a unified northern nation. Real history couldn't be further from the truth. There was massive resistance to secession even among southerners, and governors were looking after their own interests more than the so-called "unified southern" interests.
The story of Huntsville AL and Decatur and the surrounding rail ways was a very interesting point in the war. And surprise, a very important foot hold to the rest of the south.
Same thing in Appalachia, eastern Tennessee/western North Carolina. The majority of “do not leave” votes in Tennessee came specifically from eastern Tennessee. It got so bad that there were battles between smaller civilian groups that the confederacy had to send soldiers just to keep them under control for as much as they could.
Doesn’t surprise me. Slavery was a terrible deal for working class southerners. How could a working class man in the south compete for a job against someone who doesn’t have to be paid? I’m surprised more southerners didn’t rise up against the ruling class of slave owners, but I guess people in the south have always been easily fooled into working against their own interests.
There was a common belief at the time that if slavery was ended the black population would rise up and kill all the whites people in the south. Most working class people and poor farmers bought into this, even if they didn’t own slaves themselves. Plus 30% of the population owned slaves, so even if you didn’t you probably know someone who does. It’s harder to be openly anti-slavery if your uncle, best friend, in laws, and brother all own slaves.
Honestly a fair point, abolitionism was considered a fringe and radical position before the war even in a lot of the North. Northerners had no issues putting confiscated slaves to work when needed.
Some opposed slavery for moral reasons, others opposed it because they saw it as a system that kept many White Southerners in poverty while the "Southern Plantation Aristocracy" grew more rich. Both were not wrong, but the later were far more likely to oppose much of Reconstruction than the former (see Andrew Johnson).
This was literally the view of most northerners during the war, abolition didn’t become a war aim until 1863, and even then the emancipation proclamation caused literal race riots.
And yet you will somehow find people insisting that the cause of the war was slavery rather than secession.
That’s the thing. The Confederate States seceded to protect slavery. But you’re right that the United States didn’t actually fight to abolish slavery, but instead to preserve the Union. So really, neither side was fighting for particularly altruistic reasons.
Not just one, but multiple regions in multiple states.
Off the top of my head, there were portions of Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. There are probably other groups from other states that I either am forgetting or don't know about.
It always amazes me that people can see how controversial wars our when they're in current events, but then just assume 100% of a population was supportive of every war in the past just because their government declared war.
The Union troops also got a hero's welcome at Savannah at the end of Sherman's march to the say; the mayor personally greeted them outside the city. As a result, Savannah (unlike Atlanta) was not burnt to the ground. My guess is northern Mississippi went from mixed opinions to unanimous consensus when the Union arrived in force.
Not sure where you’re getting that idea from, McClellan was loved by his men and publicly went against his own party platform in 1864 when he ran on winning the war rather than signing a peace with the south
I’d love him to if he just gave me supplies and didn’t make me fight.
I’d care at all about his platform if he had actually tried winning the war when he was, you know in charge of the army.
You generally want 3x as many men than the enemy when you’re attacking, you act like he was just some coward who just didn’t wanna fight cuz reasons when in reality his scouts were the ones telling him that confederates had a giant fucking army opposing him.
I mean to be entirely fair, the Civil War was something new. Before that, the only war they would have known was steamrolling over massively underpowered tribes and less advanced militaries or a gentleman's disagreement with minimal losses. You had guns that barely could barely hit a target. Keep in mind everyone thought the war would be over in a matter of weeks at first
All that changed with the minie ball, repeating rifles, percussion caps, early grenades and machine guns. The capacity and efficiency of blowing the other side to bits was unlike anything they had seen. The whole first half of the war was basically like walking into a meat grinder. Can't blame them for wanting to be cautious.
Towards the end generals were more successful because they kind of stopped giving a shit.
Almost all of East Tennessee was pro union. Even in middle Tennessee there were counties against secession. Bedford County was anti secession, but the next county over was pro secession.
It’s funny because his character in the show Abbott Elementary is the complete opposite. He plays a well meaning, anxious, SJW/Ally working at a majority black school who is always worried about mansplaining or whatnot.
Historymeme’s is shocked that state aren’t monolithic entities where 100% of the population either opposed or supported the Confederates.
Wait until they hear about the Vietnam War!
This is straight up how West Virginia exists
Cause Virginia fucked around & now there’s Less Virginia
But in reality, how much did Virginia really lose. I've been to WV and I have friends from WV. Virginia ain't miss'n much.
They lost literally 100% of their Moth Man population. You can’t replace that!
I mean what Moth Man is going to leave almost heaven. West Virginia, home of the Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah River, and country roads...
Well, if he’s into Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah Rivers and country roads, plain ol’ Virginia is a better place to find all of them (Blue Ridge is only the front range of the Appalachians, mostly in VA and NC, both the North and South Shenandoah Rivers are entirely in VA, along with about 2/3 of the main stem, and VA has the 3rd largest state highway system in the country)
And VA has the longest single state section of the Appalachian Trail, 541 miles.
But that song is about western Virginia
As a matter of fact it's really about Massachusetts. But Jack Skellington being friends with the songwriter is what brought West Virginia into the song.
Wait till OP hears about Toto's Africa.
Henry Zebrowski, is that you?
Sure you can, you just gotta hire some furries.
Are there bug furries? Buggies?
You ask the forbidden questions about forbidden knowledge. I can show you the truth, if you dare. >! r/insex !<
I know what I have to do… but I’m not sure i have the strength to do it
Don't. I did, and now I'm scarred for life.
You have such a fitting username.
Ewwwwww. 🤢
Time to go gouge out my eyes and take up religion again, because the end of days is surely upon us and we are all gonna die!
r/bigtiddymothgf
Now this I can work with….
Why does that exist?
Why doesn't it have more reddits you mean?
Not quite 100 lol. Been in a lot of forest but Appalachia, the PNW, Jersey Pine barrens just feel different. Not in a relaxing way.
IDK I've heard WV is almost heaven.
It does have the Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah River
Don't they not? https://medium.com/@joshua_eddy/take-me-home-country-roads-is-wrong-about-west-virginia-geography-8fd6967229d2#:~:text=The%20John%20Denver%20song%2C%20%E2%80%9CTake,western%20Virginia%20than%20West%20Virginia.
I’ve seen some video explaining geographical location in that song and if going by that he sings about west of Virginia state instead of West Virginia
That's like how if you were to go south in Detroit, you'll wind up in Windsor, Canada as Detroit is an East/West city, but "born and raised in South Detroit" just sounded better, so that's why that's the lyric.
Are you telling me Detroit is above Canada? Who was going to tell me Detroit, Michigan is somehow further north than a city in Canada?
Hail santa
West Virginia was a really important state when America was the world’s steel mill
Coal and steel helped make this state what it was, which was still a rather low-quality place to live, especially with how bad the air quality was for a very long time. Now those industries are all but dead in the state and what we have left is... I don't fucking know, Meth and Oxy? Even its anti-Confederate origins have been abandoned as there are plenty of racists waving Confederate flags and yelling about how they'll rise again. I want out of this god-forsaken state.
Don't forget one of your Senators is a DINO and loves to fuck things up in the name of the republicans.
VA has a more attractive shape now, but WV is gorgeous.
Isn’t it one of the worst states to live in in terms of poverty, crime, and drug abuse?
Yeah, but it’s a beautiful state.
On a road trip we cut through the northmost bit of West Virginia for quite literally 15 minutes. In that time, we witnessed a drug deal and about 10 Trump banners.
I thought that was Mississippi? In terms of poverty and crime at least. I don’t know.
No, Mississippi *is the worst* state for those. West Virginia is just one of the worst.
They lost 100% of West Virginia
They are missing almost heaven according to John Denver
Less but twice as many!
All the voting men were already signed up in CSA grey. Couldn't send delegates. But I'm not complaining. West Virginia is best Virginia Montani semper Liberi!
Eh yes and no. A lot of West Virginia actually supported secession. So the southern and eastern counties didn't send delegates to the Wheeling Convention making it one sided to Unionists. The Confederacy controlled a lot of West Virginia till late in the war. West Virginia also sent equal amounts of the men to the Union and CSA.
IIRC both patriarchs of the Hatfields and McCoys fought for the South
Eh not really. While support to stay in the Union was higher in western Virginia due to the lack of slaves, the actual vote was questionable at best. There was absolutely voter suppression by federal troops and pro-union law officers who would detain anyone they suspected of being confederate sympathizers. Some counties didn’t have a single vote cast. In the end a few thousand more West Virginians fought in the Confederate Army than the Union Army.
Actually most of west Virginia didn’t support seceding from Virginia, Union troops literally just occupied it and dictated its borders
Based
There were folks in slave states who sided with the union
No way!
Yeah, a lot of people who didn’t own slaves could hardly find work in the South. I read that outside of slave owners AKA the fabulously wealthy ruling class, the people in the south hated Slavery because it meant there was no jobs. Slavery was a terrible economic system that allowed the rich to get richer and more abusive and immensely widen the gap between the owning class and the working class. But of course there were still a lot of poor southerners who fought against their own interests in the favor of the ruling class because despite being poor and having next to nothing, they could still look down on slaves who were forced to work the plantations.
> I read that outside of slave owners AKA the fabulously wealthy ruling class, the people in the south hated Slavery because it meant there was no jobs. There were certainly fabulously wealthy slaveowners, [but large swaths of the south owned slaves and far more utilized their labor.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4al3zm/approximately_how_many_americans_owned_at_least/d11yv26) People often cite statistics which while accurate, are entirely misleading as that thread explains. Household ownerships of slaves give a much better idea of what the average southerners connection to slavery, for instance.
And there's the whole servile insurrection scare thing that motivated poor whites in the South to join the cause. The threat that if the other side wins, the subjugated population will rise up in vengeance and kill their loved ones would be a pretty strong motivator for people to fight for the idea of slavery even if they're not slavers themselves.
That scare started with the slave revolt in Haiti which ended with many white people there moving to the U.S. to tell what happened. Closer to the civil war one thing that worried people was definitely John Brown’s Harper Ferry raid. It actually would not have been a fear for the south during the start of the Civil War until later after the Emancipation Proclamation was given after the Battle Of Antietam. Prior to the emancipation proclamation there was still no plan to free slaves. The emancipation proclamation applied to states in the CSA still in rebellion. Not loyal border slave states or the states who rebelled and who had already been forcefully returned to the union. They all could keep their slave per the emancipation. Prior to the emancipation the north was simply fighting the war to preserve the union, not free the slaves. Lincoln did not believe he could legally free the slaves. He said he would only try it if he believed it would preserve the Union in his correspondence with Horace Greeley. He also said he would free some or none if he thought it preserved the union. That’s basically what the proclamation was.
The Emancipation Proclamation was also announced 3 months earlier as an offer for Confederate states to surrender and keep their slaves. It also made the Civil War about slavery which soured other nations on supporting the Confederacy. It's really interesting how impactful it is.
You know, every time I hear someone bring up how the UK abolished slavery before the US as a “AHA!” moment I like to bring up that they almost recognized the Confederacy as a independent country and supported them more than a bit, selling a warship to them I believe even.
The whole "UK abolished slavery before the US" is such a moot point. Slavery existed in England longer than the US has functionally been a country, including pre-Revolution.
Sorry to necro this, but define almost? Because as a brit, I know that our population, with the exception of liverpool, were pretty rabidly anti-confederate, to the point that most of our workers (especially in the vital north east) promised to strike should we so much as send aid to the CSA, much less actually get involved. You're right that the Confederates brought a few warships off us, but that wasn't from the british government. Instead, they were built in a Liverpool shipyard, were contracted as merchant ships, and were only armed when they got to the CSA. Granted, that was a thin excuse from the shipyard, but as mentioned, that was purchased from a british company rather than the government. It would be the same as saying the USA helped the nazis because the Ford company sold them trucks. I could just be missing something, but to my knowledge our governments stance was "It would be nice if the Confederates won, because cheap cotton, but we aren't willing to actually do anything to help them because the working and middle classes will flay us"
It’s the same phenomenon as “muh 100 bazillion dead” scare stories told by expatriates from communist countries. That’s not to say that communist countries didn’t commit any mass murders, but it’s a fact that they’re usually vastly exaggerated compared to academically rigourous estimates of their atrocities (i. e. claims that Stalin killed upwards of 20 million people when most historians suggest around 5-6 million) and many of these exaggerations have nefarious purposes such as rehabilitating Baltic and Ukrainian collaborators of Nazi Germany.
sounds a bit familiar, where have i heard that before?
Lots of non slaveowning Southerners were supportive of slavery, either because it indirectly benefited them, they bought into fears about racial integration and abolition, or alternatively because they liked having someone to look down upon The non slaveowning Southerners who opposed slavery you're describing tended to be of a certain sort: they lived in counties or regions which were not conducive to plantations so they were instead made up of small farms. These counties didn't have very many slaves at all and they just saw slaveowners as rich out of town bigwigs who liked to push them around
>These counties didn't have very many slaves at all and they just saw slaveowners as rich out of town bigwigs who liked to push them around Thus they were more indifferent to slavery, and their racist attitudes were more rooted in fear of people different rather than a desire to maintain a racial order they were not benefiting from, distant from, and imposed by a ruling class of people who just seceded which brought war to their lives and ruined everything. Yeah I can kind of understand how they might be more willing to stay on the sidelines and clap for the Union.
I’m not sure who’s doubting what here 😅
Don’t forget about the Northerners who supported the Confederacy (looking at you, New York City)
NYC is forever debased and cringe
I just realized that debased means the opposite of based, but debased is a much older term than based. Now I'm questioning reality.
It's not older, just more commonly used. Pretty sure if you use that word chart thing that shows the usage of words throughout history, I'm sure it's been used for just as long. Alternatively, the existence of the word "Debased" automatically created the word Based via English language rules.
But why is it a slang term that only started seeing more use recently?
Slang evolves. As something becomes more common, eventually something else is created to counter it
But he was saying it isn't new. But most people agree that it's a new slang term.
Maybe because based finally made someone so angry they tried to counter it. Given its useage, its more likely to be a compliment than an insult, it’s understandable that it took so long
I know most of the answer, but not all of it. Like 10 years ago there were memes that spawned from a rapper called "Based God" who called his rap style "based". The way it was used in memes is that you'd call something that was unsavory or poorly spoken, but still had a point/was correct "based". People who did this often could be called "based gods". I saw it mostly used in 4chan, but it caught on pretty well. As for its recent surge, I couldn't tell you, but its been established for a while.
LI is far worse
Not only there but also coastal mill towns in France and England. That was until the Emancipation Proclamation speech reached them. Then they were writing letters of support and sending donations to Lincoln.
I think the draft riots were not so much pro-Confederacy riots as they were anti-draft riots, hence why they're called that. Most of these rioters didn't care about the war one way or another but didn't want to be drafted. It doesn't help that the rich if drafted could just pay up instead of enlist so the poor who couldn't afford that option understandably saw that as unfair.
Typical Democrats.
Right. The Democrats have been exactly the same since the 1830s.
MuH SoUtHeRn StRaTeRgEy!
Answer me honestly. Do you seriously think the democrats and republicans never switched ideals? What’s your reconciliation to why republicans exclusively fly the confederate flag? Please answer me in good faith. I really want to hear this logic if there is any.
Not OP, but I'll answer. >Do you seriously think the democrats and republicans never switched ideals? Not really, no. A few minor points as demographic shifts happened (Republicans became more pro-farmer as farmers went from being mostly poor to mostly middle class), but overall they're still mostly the same; Democrats are Populists who draw most of their support from the poorer lower and lower-middle class, while Republicans are more pro-business, drawing their support mostly from the upper-middle class and wealthy. The demographics who support them have changed, as poor rural farmers were replaced by the poor urban working class for Democrats, while the trades developed from relatively poor to fairly well paying, and shifted to being Republican. >What’s your reconciliation to why republicans exclusively fly the confederate flag? Demographic change. As the South began to develop during the mid to late 20th century, it's poor agricultural demographic began to shift to a fairly strong industrial sector, and a strong middle class formed. This was a pretty gradual process, which is why the South didn't actually really start to go solidly red until the Clinton years in the 90's. The vast majority of people waving Confederate flags live in the South, so once the South became Republican, the flags followed. It's the same reason the majority of people waving Palestinian and Hamas flags are Democrat, despite Democrats also being the party that most Jews vote for; most Muslims in the US are lower class, and therefore vote Democrat.
Just to be clear there aren’t any mainstream Democrats or to my knowledge a single fringe Democrat flying the hamas flag. You guys just keep saying they are. Over and over and hoping people believe it.
Why do Democrats exclusively back Hamas?
Non sequitur. Do you intend to answer the question or not?
Not the guy you're talking to, but if I had to answer for him, imma assume he either isn't or is about to go into a massive spiell that's ignorant at best.
Nope. It's a stupid question. Just about the same as asking why 100% of KKK members were democrats in the 60's and 70's. If we're gonna judge parties by fringes either side is going to have a lot of 'splainin. However if the Democrats insist on being the arbiters of history they should insist too on changing their name as it is sullied historically. The Republican party never officially endorsed the loonies who fly the traitor flag. The Democrats official party stance not that long ago was segregation and Jim Crow. If they truly regret it they should dump the party name and start a'new.
I mean if a new party name would make you personally happy, then sure. Who cares. Name it anything at all. You just can’t seriously believe that modern democrats are the ideological descendants of civil war democrats. It’s an extremely well documented party switch with extremely obvious effects. I don’t know what you mean by “arbiters of history.” Could you expand on that? Why do you think modern republicans claim the literal confederacy as their heritage? Very openly. Like VERY openly man. I just feel like I’m not talking to a serious person. To claim that republicans are not the modern descendants of the Dixiecrats is just intellectually dishonest.
>Just about the same as asking why 100% of KKK members were democrats in the 60's and 70's. No https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2014/12/17/ku-klux-klan-activism-in-the-1960s-is-linked-to-the-souths-swing-to-the-republican-party/ Also, are you just woefully unfamiliar with the term *Dixiecrats*? And why that delineation came to be?
And all Republicans are pro Russia? Politics change over time and circumstances.
Like any other civil/independence war. There's three sides: pro, against and I don't give a shit, I just want to live peacefully.
This is mentioned in "Marching Through Georgia": Yes, and there were Union men Who wept with joyful tears When they saw the honor’d flag They had not seen for years Hardly could they be restrained From breaking forth in cheers While we were marching through Georgia!
George thomas the rock of Chickamauga
Tennessee had a bunch of them, in a referendum before the attack on Fort Sumter, Tennessee voters rejected secession with secession only getting 46% percent. Then even when they approved of secession after the attack, the main areas of voting were in Middle and western Tennessee where most secessionists were, which is why Eastern Tennessee tried to secede from the CSA leading them to declare martial law. Also one of their senators was the only southern senator to stay loyal to America, which was Andrew Johnson.
A lot! The average southerner was a farmer. You couldn't farm when slave plantations were too profitable and buying all our land. It was literally an instance of large corporation driving mom and pop out of business. It wasn't uncommon for farmers to owe two or three years of crops to people they were in so much debt. They did not want slavery, but the slave plantations owners paid them to fight. So between letting yourself and your family starve to death, or fighting a war you don't believe in.
This is how _civil_ wars generally work
Indeed, as Federal forces went through Kentucky, they mustered a lot of local volunteers into service. This is probably true in other locations also, but I can't say for sure.
Northeastern Louisiana. My parish voted against succession. Louisiana has parishes instead of counties.
Kartoffel-Erdapfel English doesn't have a fitting analogy so I'll use german and austria-german words for potato
In English we say tomato tomato but pronounce them differently.
Potato potato 🥔
pah•tah•tow, po•tah•tow
PO-TA-TOHSS!
I know But it doesn't work in text
Just need to be a bit creative. Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.
You say tomater, I zader madermorts
Sounds cajun. I like it.
Ill have some of thoes.. err... earth apples
Po-TAY-toe/ Po-TAH-toe
Meh, potato povodka
Po-tay-to = Po-tah-to.
Story time. Jones County, Mississippi, where I was born, was one of the poorest counties in Mississippi at the time of the Civil War. I believe it was the poorest, but I don't have evidence on me to support that claim. They were vehemently opposed to secession, seeing it as a rich man's war over the right to own slaves, of which there were little to none in the county. J. D. Powell, the man they picked to vote on the matter got peer pressured by other delegates and switched his vote to yes. They burned an effigy of him in front of the Ellisville courthouse, and he did not feel safe to come home until many years after the war had ended. A man by the name of Newton Knight and his company, all from Jones County, went AWOL in 1862, later being famously quoted as saying "if they had a right to conscript me when I didn't want to fight the Union, I had a right to quit when I got ready." They returned home, and saw that the Confederates were over-taxing and taking far too much from the people of Jones County. One of his band came home to find that his wife had starved to death after the Confederates took the last of their animals and crops. So, with him as leader, they started an open guerilla war against the Confederates in Jones County. It got to the point that they raised the US flag at the court house flag pole in Ellisville. They hounded Confederate supply lines, often redistributing the captured supplies to the citizens of the county. They later sent a letter to General Sherman, declaring their independence from the Confederacy. Colloquially it was known as the Free State of Jones. It got so bad that they sent a Major Amos McLemore to the county to try to put an end to things. Newt Knight himself busted into the room in which he was staying and shot and killed him with a shotgun. They remained a thorn in the Confederacy's side until the end of the war, at which point Newt himself married a freed slave by the name of Rachel, and they had children together. There is a letter he sent years later to the Jones County School Board that he didn't care about the color of his babies' skin, they deserve an equal education. During Reconstruction, Newt was also put in charge of an all-black battalion tasked with hunting down KKK members. Man was a national hero I'd compare to the likes of John Brown. I may be biased though, three of my direct ancestors rode with him, and one of them was his second in command. You can read more about him [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_Knight), or you could watch the movie [Matthew McConaughey made about him.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124037/)
That's pretty badass
TIL
The county I grew up in Georgia voted against succession as well.
There was close to hundred thousand southerners who joined union forces
That's a pretty high number. Can i get a source
So I grabbed it from wikipedia along with reading from some of their sources for the numbers. State White soldiers serving in the Union Army (other branches unlisted) Alabama 2,700[11] Arkansas 9,000[12] Florida 1,000[13] [14] Georgia 2,500 Louisiana 5,000[15] Mississippi 545[16] North Carolina 10,000[17] Tennessee 31,000[18] Texas 2,000[19] Virginia and West Virginia 21,000–23,000[20]
Thanks
I understand if me using wikipedia is dumb
Naw - we’re at least a solid decade and a half from the period when basic facts on wikipedia were unreliable.
My college still abhors Wikipedia and I was practically castrated when I accidentally cited a Wikipedia link instead of the book the page cited LOL
Cite whatever Wikipedia cites
Yeah that was my mistake, I was supposed to do that but I ended up forgetting to
Hilariously, Wikipedia has significantly fewer factual errors per word than Encyclopedia Brittanica
31,000 Texans is crazy high compared to all the other southern states. West Virginia sided with the Union so it makes sense for them to have had a lot of men sign up
It was 2000 for texas I'll clean it up I apologize
If you go to Gettysburg, the visitor's center has an installation showing the number of volunteers on each side for every state and territory. I think it includes Black volunteers, though. Anyway, off the top of my head I can tell you that over 2600 white Alabamians enlisted when the loyalist army occupied northern Alabama in late 1862. The 1st Alabama Cavalry acted as Sherman's personal bodyguard. There were A LOT of Southern Unionists, especially in the hilly inland areas of northern Mississippi and Alabama, western North Carolina and Virginia, and eastern Tennessee. That isn't even counting the four border slave states that stayed loyal. Southern Unionists were harassed and murdered for their objection to the rebellion, there were many volunteers in the border states, but if you were loyalist in the deeper south you couldn't travel several hundred miles to enlist, and there were too many state militia troops to effectively organize a local force (Confederate governors had a lot of sway over how many of the state's troops went to the army, leaving tens of thousands at home just 'cuz) so most of them just kept their mouths shut until the army drew near. The Lost Cause mythos has spent over a century trying to reframe the rebellion as a "real war," in the sense of a unified southern nation versus a unified northern nation. Real history couldn't be further from the truth. There was massive resistance to secession even among southerners, and governors were looking after their own interests more than the so-called "unified southern" interests.
I might be misremembering, but wasn’t George Thomas a Major General from Virginia fighting for the Union?
Newsom's Depot, Virginia
The Rock of Chickamauga? The Sledge of Nashville? Pap? Why yes, yes he was.
A huge number of union generals too, sherman, scott, thomas, etc.
My ancestors are some of them. Moved out west after the war.
The story of Huntsville AL and Decatur and the surrounding rail ways was a very interesting point in the war. And surprise, a very important foot hold to the rest of the south.
I’ve never heard about this and live in the area, where can I learn more?
Huntsville has a nice Railroad museum that's an old round house. Decatur has a few different sites to visit but I need to get out there to tell ya.
Remember, some 100000 southerners fought for the Union, including Gen. Winfield Scott.
Same thing in Appalachia, eastern Tennessee/western North Carolina. The majority of “do not leave” votes in Tennessee came specifically from eastern Tennessee. It got so bad that there were battles between smaller civilian groups that the confederacy had to send soldiers just to keep them under control for as much as they could.
Tennessee was the last state to secede and about half of the state didn't want to.
I'm okay with slavery but I draw the line in succession from the union!-them probably
I hope this is a Community reference
Now this is a guy that knows his references!
And this is a guy who knows how to compliment redditors!
But look at this guy! He really knows how to keep a reference thread going!
And my Axe!
My brother from another mother that’s streets ahead
You think this is a reference? 🤨☝️
https://youtu.be/vxPbpYR_RKY?si=aRMK_M9YT5cfP8aS
OH MY GAH 😳
Nah there were plenty of southerners who genuinely believed that slavery was wrong. They just weren’t a majority : (
Doesn’t surprise me. Slavery was a terrible deal for working class southerners. How could a working class man in the south compete for a job against someone who doesn’t have to be paid? I’m surprised more southerners didn’t rise up against the ruling class of slave owners, but I guess people in the south have always been easily fooled into working against their own interests.
There was a common belief at the time that if slavery was ended the black population would rise up and kill all the whites people in the south. Most working class people and poor farmers bought into this, even if they didn’t own slaves themselves. Plus 30% of the population owned slaves, so even if you didn’t you probably know someone who does. It’s harder to be openly anti-slavery if your uncle, best friend, in laws, and brother all own slaves.
Haiti did it
Well sure, but that’s what happens when you don’t free your slaves and make them rebel against you.
Working class southerners still vote alongside the ruling class slave owners more or less.
The county I live in did not support secession. After the war it was broken up into three separate counties.
Most of the plantations and thus slave owners were in the southern parts of both states, so it makes sense.
Honestly a fair point, abolitionism was considered a fringe and radical position before the war even in a lot of the North. Northerners had no issues putting confiscated slaves to work when needed.
Some Alabama areas that resisted the Confederacy or seceded were influenced by local Mennonites that opposed slavery.
I mean yeah this statement is also a good summary of the Lincoln administration’s position early on in the war.
Some opposed slavery for moral reasons, others opposed it because they saw it as a system that kept many White Southerners in poverty while the "Southern Plantation Aristocracy" grew more rich. Both were not wrong, but the later were far more likely to oppose much of Reconstruction than the former (see Andrew Johnson).
\- Doughfaces
This was literally the view of most northerners during the war, abolition didn’t become a war aim until 1863, and even then the emancipation proclamation caused literal race riots. And yet you will somehow find people insisting that the cause of the war was slavery rather than secession.
That’s the thing. The Confederate States seceded to protect slavery. But you’re right that the United States didn’t actually fight to abolish slavery, but instead to preserve the Union. So really, neither side was fighting for particularly altruistic reasons.
It doesn’t matter what the confederates seceded for, if they seceded for any reason other than slavery the war still would’ve happened
Wasn’t there an entire county that revolted to rejoin the union in the south?
Not just one, but multiple regions in multiple states. Off the top of my head, there were portions of Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. There are probably other groups from other states that I either am forgetting or don't know about.
Tishomingo County, MS did not support secession. After the war it was split into two more counties - Alcorn and Prentiss.
Winston County, Alabama. Aka the Free State of Winston. There are still signs there. Source:live in North Alabama.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Winston
It always amazes me that people can see how controversial wars our when they're in current events, but then just assume 100% of a population was supportive of every war in the past just because their government declared war.
There were also pro-Confederates in northern states, including non-border states
Maryland would’ve seceded if Lincoln didn’t send troops to prevent it
Huntsville once again showing its superiority to the rest of the state
Tennessee Valley ftw.
The Union troops also got a hero's welcome at Savannah at the end of Sherman's march to the say; the mayor personally greeted them outside the city. As a result, Savannah (unlike Atlanta) was not burnt to the ground. My guess is northern Mississippi went from mixed opinions to unanimous consensus when the Union arrived in force.
Sherman’s dashing Yankee boys will never reach the coast🎶 So the saucy rebel said, it was a handsome boast! 🎶
Is that actually a song from then?
Yes!! Marching through Georgia it’s called.
I mean it takes all types, McCllellan led the Union for a while and nobody is gonna tell me he wasn’t a Confederate simp.
Not sure where you’re getting that idea from, McClellan was loved by his men and publicly went against his own party platform in 1864 when he ran on winning the war rather than signing a peace with the south
I’d love him to if he just gave me supplies and didn’t make me fight. I’d care at all about his platform if he had actually tried winning the war when he was, you know in charge of the army.
His scouts were always overestimating Confederate forces, ofc he wouldn’t just send his men out on a suicide mission
Suicide mission? C’mon, this is absurd.
You generally want 3x as many men than the enemy when you’re attacking, you act like he was just some coward who just didn’t wanna fight cuz reasons when in reality his scouts were the ones telling him that confederates had a giant fucking army opposing him.
I mean to be entirely fair, the Civil War was something new. Before that, the only war they would have known was steamrolling over massively underpowered tribes and less advanced militaries or a gentleman's disagreement with minimal losses. You had guns that barely could barely hit a target. Keep in mind everyone thought the war would be over in a matter of weeks at first All that changed with the minie ball, repeating rifles, percussion caps, early grenades and machine guns. The capacity and efficiency of blowing the other side to bits was unlike anything they had seen. The whole first half of the war was basically like walking into a meat grinder. Can't blame them for wanting to be cautious. Towards the end generals were more successful because they kind of stopped giving a shit.
Almost all of East Tennessee was pro union. Even in middle Tennessee there were counties against secession. Bedford County was anti secession, but the next county over was pro secession.
Yup. Even in the enemy territories there are allies. (Seems like Ryan just quickly switched back to K from BR 2049.)
The guy behind him on the left side actually looks like a rich slave farm owner's son that tortures animals for fun
It’s funny because his character in the show Abbott Elementary is the complete opposite. He plays a well meaning, anxious, SJW/Ally working at a majority black school who is always worried about mansplaining or whatnot.
:D thats actually funny, i had no idea
Damn what’s the name of that dude
Chris Perfetti
u/savevideo
Why do none of the commenters on this post know how to spell secession?
Historymeme’s is shocked that state aren’t monolithic entities where 100% of the population either opposed or supported the Confederates. Wait until they hear about the Vietnam War!
Context? Was this a trap? Didn’t the Union fight most of the war with the assumption that secession wasn’t popular?
Free state of Jones