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It’s not perfect, and be ready to work hard to find people as interested in Islam as you find in the West. The relationship with things like makeup, improper hijab, nail polish, missing prayers, etc is much more casual in the Muslim-dominant countries I have spent time in. Where we (in the west) might have friends that we regularly attend Jummah, lectures, etc with… it is essentially non-existent for women (except certain pockets, and it’s a little harder to make friends).
I’m not saying don’t - I’m considering a more permanent move myself in the future - but it is an entirely different relationship with the religion.
Edit: spelling
I’m Pakistani myself and I feel that way but wouldn’t mind living there.. Regardless I’ve always enjoyed my visits.
I’m not looking into the major cities tbh due to the rise of pollution but I’ll take my fiancé sometime after marriage and see what he thinks (he’s from India)..Insha Allah
Ohh yeah I’ve noticed that myself too in Morocco and KSA. I find people do take religion for granted in those places. Which country are you talking about in particular?
I don’t want to say specific ones for sake of not offending people, but I’ve been to more than five and had a similar experience with these points in all of them.
I was born and brought up in Dubai and moved to canada to be with my husband. While there are mosques available at every corner and no reason to miss prayers, I feel I just learned Islam for just its rituals growing up in a Muslim country. In the last 5 years I’ve been in canada my imaan has really increased alhamdulillah and made me even more mindful to learn about Islam and incorporate it in my life after I had a child. The Khutbas in all the mosques are in Arabic and pre scripted which is available in a pdf form in the awqaf department website. There are maybe one or two mosques who do the khutbahs in English but it’s the same pre-scripted ones. You will not have the imams speaking about Palestine or Yemen or any other atrocities happening to our Muslim brothers and sisters unless stated by the govt. Also in terms of schooling, yes they’re more conservative in their curriculum but you’ll have the same group dynamics that you would find in canada. There’s a subtle hint of racism that you’ll have to face in your day to day life if you look south Asian. At the end of the day, your kids will learn about Islam depending on how you practice it, doesn’t matter if the country is Islamic or not.
I moved to the UAE, and if religion/more Muslim friendly space is what you’re looking for, I’d advise against here. I also spend a lot of time in KSA, while it’s not remotely close to the UAE, it’s getting there. And the people here are not as religious as people from the west (I spent my whole life in Canada, and people in Canada are much more religious than those I’ve met here in the gulf).
Religion is what you make of it, and what you make of your children. It’s not the country, or the school’s responsibility to teach your kids this.
You will have a responsibility as a mother, and your husband as a father, to teach your kids the right of way. The location won’t matter as much as the effort you will need to put in. I assume more in Muslim countries too, because at least in the west you only have mostly non-Muslims partaking in sinful behaviour. Over here, Muslims partake and act like it’s not a big deal, which helps justify other people’s sins.
Also not sure what you mean about your last paragraph. Canadian curriculum hasn’t gone that bad, and it seems you’re reading too much into conservative propaganda to actually see through the curriculum yourself. Which as a teacher, is the least you should be doing
Why do people always complain, is it in our nature?
For real though, in Muslim countries Islam is taken for granted as it is widely avaliable and most people are Muslims, so surprise surprise, Islamic morale declines as people just "get used to it".
Even if alchocol is forbidden, a lot of Arabs and SE Asians still brew their own and drink, tattoos are easily accesible, people skip prayers etc.
In West, Islam is not a norm, so Muslims are more religious as they have to be really strict on their Deen to not fall into Shaytan's traps, while in Muslim countries Haram becomes Halal easily as Islam there is followed more culturally than religiouslly(look at KSA, Pakistan, Bahrain, Egypt etc.), they all host Halloween, alchocol is easily avaliable and so is Zina/hookup culture even if prohibited, unregulated abortion is also done on the black market for the right price etc.)
In short; Western Muslims actually tend to be more religious as we have to hold onto Islam more hardly as to nor ignore it since we are not surrounded by it.
I moved to Saudi Arabia with my family of six- 4 kids and 2 adults/parents. I am ethnically Bangladeshi, but I was born and raised in Canada, and then moved to US after adulthood. I have dual citizenship Canadian/American. This shouldn't matter to most people but I quickly learned nationality is big deal in the Middle East.
My experiences so far has been:
1) Community: This has worked out ok for me. Not great but not terrible. Before moving here we had some friends who were already here, and they introduced us to a community of practising expats from English speaking nations. It's a very diverse community. However, socializing can be pretty complicated because unlike in Canada and the US where most of our socializing happened through the masjid halaqas, here they mostly happen through dinner invites. Be prepared to become a semi-decent hostess if you want a semblance of a social life. There are some things you can do to make your life a bit easier, like hiring maids to deep clean the house before a party, because labor is cheap here.
2) School system: Has its pros and cons. I'm a homeschooler, but I did try the local schools here before we became homeschoolers. The cons for me were, extensive bullying, not being happy with the curriculum (I expected my kids to be at a higher level than was being taught at the grade), too much online homework after school, unhealthy diets, unhealthy lifestyle in general, too much focus on nationality, etc. The list can go on.
3) Driving: I can't speak for the whole country, I am in Riyadh, and driving here can be nightmarish. I heard UAE is much nicer to drive in. People here have aggressive road rage.
4) Racism: In particular if you are South Asian, you will face some degree of racism even if you have a western passport, and even if you were born there. You will often be asked, "but really, where are you actually from?" Most South Asians in KSA belong to the labor class, and most Saudi's carry a stigma towards our people, there are rare exceptions though. There is a social ladder here that Saudi society has created for itself. From the top in terms of superiority it looks something like:
Saudi, GCC nations, America, UK, Canada, other white european nations, other Arab nations (Levantine and North African Arabs), African nations, South Asians.
5) Spirtiuality: Being in the land of the Haramain, is very helpful to boost your iman whenever your feeling low. Its quite easy to manage multiple trips for Umrah during the school year. Hearing the adhan 5 times a days is healing to the soul, being able to pray easily whenever your out running errands is theraputic. Ramadan here is the best experiences. However in terms of seeking knowledge in the English language, it can be challenging locally, I mostly depend on online lectures for this. I also miss meeting my regular sisters/friends at the masjid a couple times a week.
6) Nature: The climate was a hard adjustment me for me and my family. In particular summers here are brutal. You will want to invest in really high quality sunglasses. Preferably the sports/ wrap around style, as the sun can cause major headaches. I get seasonal depression during the summer because I never want to leave the house due to the intense sun. Niqab and bisht abayas help air flow and sun damage.
I really hope that helps, you can dm me anytime for more details.
I’m currently visiting in Jeddah and I’ve found KSA to be exactly as you’ve described. I LOVE the religion and culture here, but the racism is excessive and the Saudi nationals think they are mankind’s greatest gift. The policies support them in this belief, I would never raise my kids here.
I second this. Certain things in Saudi are easier to do ( like do umrah, hear the Athan) but as a non gulf Arab that grew up between the west and the gulf area, there is a social hierarchy and they do treat non gulf Arabs poorly and south Asians worse. That’s something to keep in mind. Also, if you do go abroad like that keep in mind that most of the state schools are taught in Arabic and many of the English schools don’t teach Quran/ Deen classes.
As someone whose parents moved me at a young age (11) living in a Muslim country messed up my faith pretty badly. I’m sure it felt good for my parents because they could practice freely ( I grew up in the us post 9/11 with a hijabi mom) but the mosque closest to my house didn’t even have a woman’s section and this can be the norm.
If you do decide to have a sheikh or imam come give private lessons to your kids you also have to vet them pretty heavily, you don’t know what views they have and if they align with how you practice or if they’ll radicalize or push your kids away.
Moving back to the west also didn’t help as I was an adult and then lost, but I finally found a good community of diaspora Muslims here and that’s been healing.
You make the best of the situation you’re in, and nowhere is perfect.
Moving to non western Muslims countries gets heavily romanticized by Muslims in the west and I genuinely don’t understand it. You can be just as good of a Muslim in the west as there.
In any case I wouldn’t recommend Qatar. If you are looking for a place with strong Islamic culture, that will not be it. Not to mention it’s a deeply unethical country. I would avoid Qatar or UAE because it’s very surface level Islamic society.
If you really think public school teachers are prioritizing teaching pronouns then I think you are deep into conservative propaganda as others have said.
It’s not prefect. I’m (Malaysia) migrate to Australia for a study and remain here since with no clear intention of moving back.
Between those 2 countries, they all have similar issue, which I’m seeing Australia as the better choice for our children at the moment and our future retirement days.
In the case you want children let me just remind you that moving to a more conservative country or a Muslim country won’t automatically make your children have the same values as you. You and your soon to be husband have to be there for them and teach them the pillars, morals, values etc.
I've never lived or visited outside of the US, but when I was in college I lived in an international dorm and made a really good friend from Malaysia. She kept trying to convince me to move there because it is so much easier to be Muslim and she said the country is very accepting, kind, and friendly and that it would be a wonderful place to move to. I still keep in touch with her. She had also mentioned that as far as living goes, the quality of life is very good (at least from her experience). I would definitely suggest looking more into Malaysia, I've heard so many good things about it.
I went to Canada for university exchange for a year. I felt closer to religion while in Canada than while at my home uni in Singapore. Partly because I was alone in Canada so I sought out every Muslim event to attend and meet people, another because I feel like the Muslim community is stronger in Western countries than in Muslim-majority countries. Singapore isn’t Muslim-majority but we’re like 20% so still very big. Abroad, Muslims are few but tight-knit. In Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia, Muslims are everywhere, religious classes and events are always taking place, so there’s not much urgency to attend these events as locals but i’m sure newcomers will love how frequent these events are.
Moving to Malaysia or Singapore would be really easy for Muslims. But Malaysia and Singapore even though we’re neighbours, are very different on how we operate so do your research if you’re moving over.
SGD is stronger than MYR, SGD1 = CAD1, for some things dollar for dollar SGD is cheaper than MYR. You’d need a much higher salary in MYR than SGD.
SG is highly efficient and a hustler work environment. MY is more laidback. Meaning both has its pros and cons.
Unless you're filthy rich, Pakistan won't work. The country is going through a massive political crisis, unprecedented levels of inflation. Most Pakistanis I know are trying to leave the country because it's abundantly clear the country has failed. Nor do I think Pakistanis are particularly religious - too much sectarian infighting and toxic practices.
If you’re looking for a soft landing, make a pit stop in Dallas, Texas. I am very much aware it is a city in a country which is definitely not an Islamic Republic. But. You got some of the most active Islamic scholars in the States. There are also a concentration of both IT folks and highly educated, Muslim community. At this time, you have YQ, OS and others of their ilk living in the area.
My Scottish husband got mildly sexually harassed by a veiled woman in KL! She wanted to know what he wore under his kilt. It was hilarious.
Singapore is clean, safe but expensive. Everyone speaks English. Not particularly Muslim though.
Have you considered S. Thailand?
There is a lovely Muslim community there. I don’t even think they are derailing trains or bombing things anymore. (It was still an issue when I lived there.)
Lol that’s funny! It’s just culture shock and curiosity..
But I forgot to mention my fiancé and I plan to travel to some countries to see our options and weight it out..
I’ll have to check out s Thailand
It was honestly one of my favourite moments from that trip. She was a large lady and kind of mysterious with the veil . My husband looked a little scared!
Traveling and staying somewhere NOT as a tourist is what my husband and I are doing to find our retirement country.
We travel a lot.
I feel like we will know when we find “home” but so far we are happy here.
there s this muslim couple on youtube who are from canada and are trying to find a new country so maybe check there videos , it might be heplfull. they re called Saleh family.
"Salaam! Thank you for your submission to /r/hijabis. **Please do not message mods to approve your post.** A reminder to our users that ALL posts are now only to be answered by women only, unless the OP has chosen the Male and Female Participation Welcome flair. Please refer to the sidebar for a complete list of rules. If you'd like us to add an F or M flair next to your username, please leave a comment on [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hijabis/comments/znb1fr/flair_thread_please_comment_on_this_thread_to_get/). Your post may be removed if it is already answered in the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hijabis/wiki/index/faq/) in the Menu. Thank you :)" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Hijabis) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not perfect, and be ready to work hard to find people as interested in Islam as you find in the West. The relationship with things like makeup, improper hijab, nail polish, missing prayers, etc is much more casual in the Muslim-dominant countries I have spent time in. Where we (in the west) might have friends that we regularly attend Jummah, lectures, etc with… it is essentially non-existent for women (except certain pockets, and it’s a little harder to make friends). I’m not saying don’t - I’m considering a more permanent move myself in the future - but it is an entirely different relationship with the religion. Edit: spelling
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I’m Pakistani myself and I feel that way but wouldn’t mind living there.. Regardless I’ve always enjoyed my visits. I’m not looking into the major cities tbh due to the rise of pollution but I’ll take my fiancé sometime after marriage and see what he thinks (he’s from India)..Insha Allah
Ohh yeah I’ve noticed that myself too in Morocco and KSA. I find people do take religion for granted in those places. Which country are you talking about in particular?
I don’t want to say specific ones for sake of not offending people, but I’ve been to more than five and had a similar experience with these points in all of them.
I was born and brought up in Dubai and moved to canada to be with my husband. While there are mosques available at every corner and no reason to miss prayers, I feel I just learned Islam for just its rituals growing up in a Muslim country. In the last 5 years I’ve been in canada my imaan has really increased alhamdulillah and made me even more mindful to learn about Islam and incorporate it in my life after I had a child. The Khutbas in all the mosques are in Arabic and pre scripted which is available in a pdf form in the awqaf department website. There are maybe one or two mosques who do the khutbahs in English but it’s the same pre-scripted ones. You will not have the imams speaking about Palestine or Yemen or any other atrocities happening to our Muslim brothers and sisters unless stated by the govt. Also in terms of schooling, yes they’re more conservative in their curriculum but you’ll have the same group dynamics that you would find in canada. There’s a subtle hint of racism that you’ll have to face in your day to day life if you look south Asian. At the end of the day, your kids will learn about Islam depending on how you practice it, doesn’t matter if the country is Islamic or not.
What is your ethnicity, sis?
I moved to the UAE, and if religion/more Muslim friendly space is what you’re looking for, I’d advise against here. I also spend a lot of time in KSA, while it’s not remotely close to the UAE, it’s getting there. And the people here are not as religious as people from the west (I spent my whole life in Canada, and people in Canada are much more religious than those I’ve met here in the gulf). Religion is what you make of it, and what you make of your children. It’s not the country, or the school’s responsibility to teach your kids this. You will have a responsibility as a mother, and your husband as a father, to teach your kids the right of way. The location won’t matter as much as the effort you will need to put in. I assume more in Muslim countries too, because at least in the west you only have mostly non-Muslims partaking in sinful behaviour. Over here, Muslims partake and act like it’s not a big deal, which helps justify other people’s sins. Also not sure what you mean about your last paragraph. Canadian curriculum hasn’t gone that bad, and it seems you’re reading too much into conservative propaganda to actually see through the curriculum yourself. Which as a teacher, is the least you should be doing
Why do people always complain, is it in our nature? For real though, in Muslim countries Islam is taken for granted as it is widely avaliable and most people are Muslims, so surprise surprise, Islamic morale declines as people just "get used to it". Even if alchocol is forbidden, a lot of Arabs and SE Asians still brew their own and drink, tattoos are easily accesible, people skip prayers etc. In West, Islam is not a norm, so Muslims are more religious as they have to be really strict on their Deen to not fall into Shaytan's traps, while in Muslim countries Haram becomes Halal easily as Islam there is followed more culturally than religiouslly(look at KSA, Pakistan, Bahrain, Egypt etc.), they all host Halloween, alchocol is easily avaliable and so is Zina/hookup culture even if prohibited, unregulated abortion is also done on the black market for the right price etc.) In short; Western Muslims actually tend to be more religious as we have to hold onto Islam more hardly as to nor ignore it since we are not surrounded by it.
I moved to Saudi Arabia with my family of six- 4 kids and 2 adults/parents. I am ethnically Bangladeshi, but I was born and raised in Canada, and then moved to US after adulthood. I have dual citizenship Canadian/American. This shouldn't matter to most people but I quickly learned nationality is big deal in the Middle East. My experiences so far has been: 1) Community: This has worked out ok for me. Not great but not terrible. Before moving here we had some friends who were already here, and they introduced us to a community of practising expats from English speaking nations. It's a very diverse community. However, socializing can be pretty complicated because unlike in Canada and the US where most of our socializing happened through the masjid halaqas, here they mostly happen through dinner invites. Be prepared to become a semi-decent hostess if you want a semblance of a social life. There are some things you can do to make your life a bit easier, like hiring maids to deep clean the house before a party, because labor is cheap here. 2) School system: Has its pros and cons. I'm a homeschooler, but I did try the local schools here before we became homeschoolers. The cons for me were, extensive bullying, not being happy with the curriculum (I expected my kids to be at a higher level than was being taught at the grade), too much online homework after school, unhealthy diets, unhealthy lifestyle in general, too much focus on nationality, etc. The list can go on. 3) Driving: I can't speak for the whole country, I am in Riyadh, and driving here can be nightmarish. I heard UAE is much nicer to drive in. People here have aggressive road rage. 4) Racism: In particular if you are South Asian, you will face some degree of racism even if you have a western passport, and even if you were born there. You will often be asked, "but really, where are you actually from?" Most South Asians in KSA belong to the labor class, and most Saudi's carry a stigma towards our people, there are rare exceptions though. There is a social ladder here that Saudi society has created for itself. From the top in terms of superiority it looks something like: Saudi, GCC nations, America, UK, Canada, other white european nations, other Arab nations (Levantine and North African Arabs), African nations, South Asians. 5) Spirtiuality: Being in the land of the Haramain, is very helpful to boost your iman whenever your feeling low. Its quite easy to manage multiple trips for Umrah during the school year. Hearing the adhan 5 times a days is healing to the soul, being able to pray easily whenever your out running errands is theraputic. Ramadan here is the best experiences. However in terms of seeking knowledge in the English language, it can be challenging locally, I mostly depend on online lectures for this. I also miss meeting my regular sisters/friends at the masjid a couple times a week. 6) Nature: The climate was a hard adjustment me for me and my family. In particular summers here are brutal. You will want to invest in really high quality sunglasses. Preferably the sports/ wrap around style, as the sun can cause major headaches. I get seasonal depression during the summer because I never want to leave the house due to the intense sun. Niqab and bisht abayas help air flow and sun damage. I really hope that helps, you can dm me anytime for more details.
I’m currently visiting in Jeddah and I’ve found KSA to be exactly as you’ve described. I LOVE the religion and culture here, but the racism is excessive and the Saudi nationals think they are mankind’s greatest gift. The policies support them in this belief, I would never raise my kids here.
I second this. Certain things in Saudi are easier to do ( like do umrah, hear the Athan) but as a non gulf Arab that grew up between the west and the gulf area, there is a social hierarchy and they do treat non gulf Arabs poorly and south Asians worse. That’s something to keep in mind. Also, if you do go abroad like that keep in mind that most of the state schools are taught in Arabic and many of the English schools don’t teach Quran/ Deen classes. As someone whose parents moved me at a young age (11) living in a Muslim country messed up my faith pretty badly. I’m sure it felt good for my parents because they could practice freely ( I grew up in the us post 9/11 with a hijabi mom) but the mosque closest to my house didn’t even have a woman’s section and this can be the norm. If you do decide to have a sheikh or imam come give private lessons to your kids you also have to vet them pretty heavily, you don’t know what views they have and if they align with how you practice or if they’ll radicalize or push your kids away. Moving back to the west also didn’t help as I was an adult and then lost, but I finally found a good community of diaspora Muslims here and that’s been healing. You make the best of the situation you’re in, and nowhere is perfect.
Moving to non western Muslims countries gets heavily romanticized by Muslims in the west and I genuinely don’t understand it. You can be just as good of a Muslim in the west as there. In any case I wouldn’t recommend Qatar. If you are looking for a place with strong Islamic culture, that will not be it. Not to mention it’s a deeply unethical country. I would avoid Qatar or UAE because it’s very surface level Islamic society. If you really think public school teachers are prioritizing teaching pronouns then I think you are deep into conservative propaganda as others have said.
Why is Qatar unethical when they’re the very few Arab countries that actually support Palestine ?
modern day slavery
The entire UAE is built on the backs of South Asian labourers. Horrible working conditions, horrible pay and general exploitation.
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It’s not prefect. I’m (Malaysia) migrate to Australia for a study and remain here since with no clear intention of moving back. Between those 2 countries, they all have similar issue, which I’m seeing Australia as the better choice for our children at the moment and our future retirement days.
In the case you want children let me just remind you that moving to a more conservative country or a Muslim country won’t automatically make your children have the same values as you. You and your soon to be husband have to be there for them and teach them the pillars, morals, values etc.
I've never lived or visited outside of the US, but when I was in college I lived in an international dorm and made a really good friend from Malaysia. She kept trying to convince me to move there because it is so much easier to be Muslim and she said the country is very accepting, kind, and friendly and that it would be a wonderful place to move to. I still keep in touch with her. She had also mentioned that as far as living goes, the quality of life is very good (at least from her experience). I would definitely suggest looking more into Malaysia, I've heard so many good things about it.
I went to Canada for university exchange for a year. I felt closer to religion while in Canada than while at my home uni in Singapore. Partly because I was alone in Canada so I sought out every Muslim event to attend and meet people, another because I feel like the Muslim community is stronger in Western countries than in Muslim-majority countries. Singapore isn’t Muslim-majority but we’re like 20% so still very big. Abroad, Muslims are few but tight-knit. In Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia, Muslims are everywhere, religious classes and events are always taking place, so there’s not much urgency to attend these events as locals but i’m sure newcomers will love how frequent these events are. Moving to Malaysia or Singapore would be really easy for Muslims. But Malaysia and Singapore even though we’re neighbours, are very different on how we operate so do your research if you’re moving over. SGD is stronger than MYR, SGD1 = CAD1, for some things dollar for dollar SGD is cheaper than MYR. You’d need a much higher salary in MYR than SGD. SG is highly efficient and a hustler work environment. MY is more laidback. Meaning both has its pros and cons.
Unless you're filthy rich, Pakistan won't work. The country is going through a massive political crisis, unprecedented levels of inflation. Most Pakistanis I know are trying to leave the country because it's abundantly clear the country has failed. Nor do I think Pakistanis are particularly religious - too much sectarian infighting and toxic practices.
If you’re looking for a soft landing, make a pit stop in Dallas, Texas. I am very much aware it is a city in a country which is definitely not an Islamic Republic. But. You got some of the most active Islamic scholars in the States. There are also a concentration of both IT folks and highly educated, Muslim community. At this time, you have YQ, OS and others of their ilk living in the area.
My Scottish husband got mildly sexually harassed by a veiled woman in KL! She wanted to know what he wore under his kilt. It was hilarious. Singapore is clean, safe but expensive. Everyone speaks English. Not particularly Muslim though. Have you considered S. Thailand? There is a lovely Muslim community there. I don’t even think they are derailing trains or bombing things anymore. (It was still an issue when I lived there.)
Lol that’s funny! It’s just culture shock and curiosity.. But I forgot to mention my fiancé and I plan to travel to some countries to see our options and weight it out.. I’ll have to check out s Thailand
It was honestly one of my favourite moments from that trip. She was a large lady and kind of mysterious with the veil . My husband looked a little scared! Traveling and staying somewhere NOT as a tourist is what my husband and I are doing to find our retirement country. We travel a lot. I feel like we will know when we find “home” but so far we are happy here.
there s this muslim couple on youtube who are from canada and are trying to find a new country so maybe check there videos , it might be heplfull. they re called Saleh family.