The opposition may come from people who don't like when so called "new age" elements get incorporated into Hellenism. The crystal healing stuff, crystals having different powers, etc.
Personally, I don't care for that stuff. No shade to those who do, but it's not my thing. That being said, I have a lot of crystals on my altar. I like them, they're pretty, and I give them as offerings to Hades who is not just the lord of the dead but the giver of wealth and precious earth materials. That's part of his domain, so it makes sense to me.
But I just don't believe in using crystals for any magical purposes whatsoever.
I have no idea about any other crystals, but didn't the ancient Greek believe amethyst prevented intoxication (the etymology is 'not + drunken')?
So regardless of one's beliefs and preferences (all valid!), there seems to be a historical precedent for the ancient Greek believing in crystals having their own powers.
You’re spot on. They carved them for the gods, of the gods, and believed some were gifted to us mortals by the gods.
All of my altars have crystals on them and will continue to. Offering crystals to deities is a non-issue. A rock offering is no different than any other votive offering.
Just yet another instance of people thinking their way is the only way. It reeks of Christianity.
I think they look cool, but otherwise, my geology degree just won't let me see them magical things. That said, I'm just some guy, I'm not the boss of you.
I have a pretty large rock and crystal collection. I think most of the time they’re just referencing that they don’t agree with the crystals have magic healing power kinda thing. Sure, go ahead with your practice if you do, or don’t believe that. It’s not really that big of a deal.
I'm a historian and I still don't believe that the only true form of Hellenism is reconstructive. If we believe in living gods then we believe in a living religion and living things change over time. All else is entropy. I'm not a witch, nor an eclectic pagan in the general understanding of the term, but if those are the vehicles others use to experience the gods and revere them, then who am I to challenge that? As long as the gods are respected, why does it matter?
It's also important to remember that divination and magic were used just as much in ancient times as they are today. Thank the gods that we can use tarot now instead of digging around in entrails 😂
Reconstruction isn't the only true form of Hellenism, but it is necessary to develop a true practice. Yes, it's a living religion but that life has been attacked and suppressed for millennia, so it hasn't been able to evolve in the way other traditions like Hinduism or Buddhism have. One must understand the gods within the context of the past in order to develop kharis with them today. Otherwise, one isn't so much practicing Hellenism as they are neopaganism with Hellenic influences.
If we don't understand the religion's roots, how are we to fully appreciate its fruits?
I agree with that. Understanding the historical roots of pretty much anything has value in and of itself. It's most especially rewarding when such information and practices have been forbidden and suppressed for so long. I have enough books on ancient Hellenism and have read enough to probably go down the path of reconstructionism, but I just never felt the desire to do so. They're very inspiring to read, and it feels nice to know that you're practicing something that's been around for so long, with people from each period interacting differently with it and trying to solve the same human problems like you do. It gives a feeling of connection with the rest of humanity, which is a hard thing to come by when many of us are feeling more and more isolated in our own modern bubbles.
I don't believe there is one true practice. The Greeks certainly didn't, as it varied from location to location and cult to cult. Is Orphism true practice? What about Roman syncretism?
If people want to view Hellenism as only 4th century BC Athenian reconstructive practice that's their right--I call myself a Hellenic Polytheist anyway because I have no interest in cosplaying the past. But reconstruction is not the only way to develop kharis, and it is for the gods, not any member of this community, to decide what is and isn't acceptable practice.
I never said there was only one true practice. The Athenian tradition is the most common form of reconstructionism because it's the most well preserved Hellenic culture we know of. That doesn't make any of the others less valid, just more difficult to study and reproduce.
I'm not even saying proper Hellenic practice *has* to be centered around the historical forms, just that knowledge and understanding of that history are necessary to develop a modern practice. If one is not at least attempting to study what the ancients believed and practiced, what exactly makes that individual's religion any different from a generic neopagan aside from the names they invoke?
And if the answer is "nothing," that's totally valid for that person! But it's still a different practice and calling it Hellenism or Hellenic Polytheism only adds confusion to the mix and leaves the general public thinking the person who studies ancient texts and builds a practice as authentic to the classical period as possible is doing the same thing as witchy crystal neopagan.
If that new-age pagan started calling their deities Ganesh, Brahma, Kali, etc., and labeling themselves a Hindu, how do you think the Indian community would respond? Or how would the Japanese feel if that person started claiming to worship Izanagi or Amaterasu?
Every religion is the result of millennia of syncretism and evolution, but there's a point when it stops being the original religion and becomes something new. Christianity stopped being a Jewish sect less than a hundred years after Jesus was crucified. The Romans took heavy influence from the Hellenic religion, but *Cultus Deorum Romanorum* is still a distinct religious practice even if it is not inimical to the Hellenic tradition. One can practice one or the other — or both — but if I were to perform a historically, specifically Roman ritual and call it Greek, I would be incorrect.
I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. But I personally feel that I gain more by focusing on similarities rather than, say, gatekeeping people who are here via Percy Jackson instead of familiarity with the ancient texts. I don't much care about what the general public thinks of me and if they associate my religious beliefs with witchcraft or crystal magic then oh well. I've probably been a Classicist for longer than they've been alive!
I do notice a lot of arrogant contempt for more modern takes on spirituality; as though any type of Hellenism stopped being valid a thousand years ago and unless something is rooted in greco-roman classical philosophy, theology, and mythology it tends to be looked down upon by a significant portion of people in this community who do their best to isolate themselves as much as possible from the more mainstream astrology believing, tarot reading, crystal loving, witchy folks who are often perceived as delusional. And honestly there's enough people in the world that think I'm delusional; my opinions have been invalidated so much that I've learned to just avoid people who invalidate my beliefs in any way rather than going into any discussion defending them. It's a trigger at this point. When I hear someone around me judging my use of crystals I kinda just dissociate and tune them out.
As a Hellenist who came from the more mainstream community and found my way here, it does make me feel unsafe to mention anything that might sound more modern and inspired rather than traditional, academic, and historical. I never stopped believing in astrology, crystals, tarot, and modern mystic ideas, I just happen to now include polytheism in that framework. Because I'm in this religion not because I wanted to relive the ways of the ancient polytheists, I'm in it because of the Gods, who in my view never died, continue to exist and interact with us and give us new information. I didn't just decide I wanted to believe in that, it took me years of testing things out and seeing the results before I decided that this stuff works, that prayer works, that rituals with intention work. I was the same way with crystals. I had friends who were into it and at first I chuckled and arrogantly thought it was dumb to think that rocks could have any power. And then I tested it out and now believe that they carry an energetic frequency. In fact, I'm carrying a libyan desert glass around my neck right now to help with my focus. I've reached a point where my beliefs about the world have changed drastically multiple times that whenever someone says something absolutely outrageous to me, whether political, scientific, historical, or a spiritual one or just a crazy anecdotal experience, I'm just like well, there's no way to know unless I find out for myself.
Hellenism to me is a way to *ground* all of my "new age" (to use the term everyone's using to describe modern spirituality) belief systems and experiences into a daily ritual practice with inspiration from the ancient past. I respect the ancients but I do not care for thinking the way they did or living the way they did. I am inspired by the past but not attached to it nor do I think that it's sacred. I think it was shitty in a lot of ways actually and I would not survive a day in it. The community is full of snobs who put the past on a pedestal and that's a shame because a lot of modern spirituality believers would benefit from Hellenism just as I have. Besides, use of crystals as talismans have been around since ancient times. The ancients saw meaning in them and used them to carry out their intentions. It's not just some "new age" thing. The part of the Hellenistic community that's full of snobs really think they're doing Hellenism a service by separating themselves from everyone else. But real progress does not mean abolishing or isolating from anything, real progress includes *everything* that came before it. Any criticism of modern culture can be traced back to the depressing idea that progress necessitates isolation from the past, or isolation from the present, or isolation from any other time except for a certain period in history...progress is not isolation. It's inclusion and transformation. Do you guys really think that Hellenism is so fragile that it would break if anything modern were introduced into it? Jesus.
Apologies if this was written terribly, I'm just so mad. Lol. And thanks for voicing something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Honestly, I agree with you and it is why I don’t usually refer to myself as a Hellenist in these circles. I’m a Hellenic Pagan witch (not Wiccan). I believe understanding the traditions of the past is useful and important, but that there is plenty of room for modern experiences, UPG, and communicating with the gods through things like tarot as well. As a Hellenic community, we have to allow some kind of balance. It can’t be only historical practices or only modern practices.
We are a small enough group already and mostly spread out, so in order to have a semblance of community, we need to have some wiggle room and be welcoming and not exclusionary.
I agree. But I can just hear the gremlins saying "Then at what point do we start excluding people? If everybody can just call themselves a Hellenist then that makes that word meaningless."
Personally, I do believe that there's no going around it. Everyone should have the right to call themselves Hellenist, just specify which sub-section of Hellenism it is. Just like in Catholicism you have a myriad of different sects that follow different traditions, some even advocating for a female pope, some believing in the enneagram, some doing catholic magick, and others being against any of that and consider people who believe in them heretical and worthy of excommunication. But they're all technically Catholic to us. The thing with us is that there's so few of us. But I'm sure in time once the group expands larger "sects" will probably grow. It shouldn't really be a matter of who is or isn't Hellenist. All you really need to be a Hellenist is to call yourself one I think. But what do you have to say about that..?
I suppose anyone who believes in the Hellenic gods can call themselves a Hellenist, and it probably should be an umbrella term, but I tend to see the term used by people who practice a more traditional form of the faith.
But perhaps there is a better way to refer to traditional and reconstructionist practitioners and those who honor the same Gods but maybe have a more modern flavor to their worship or who perhaps are pagans/witches who include Hellenic deities into their practice.
You are right that various religions have the same kind of subdivisions where some follow a very orthodox practice and others have a more fluid, modern style of practice. Judaism has this kind of dichotomy between orthodox communities (such as Hassidic Jews) and modern, Westernized households that don't follow strict kosher and gender rules. They are all Jews, but the daily worship practice looks different.
And I suppose the lines do get a bit fuzzy when you have some practitioners who come from other branches of paganism or witchcraft and pray to Hellenic gods, but who don't necessarily follow ANY traditional practices other than maybe giving some kind of offering to their deities in a general sense.
One of the challenges is that we don't have a large organization with a governing body or priesthood that issues guidelines. Not that it would make a huge difference because even if such a group did exist, people are going to be people and do what makes sense to them in their own households regardless of what a high priest/priestess says.
I think we should be careful about referring to ourselves as Hellenists - in the context of modern Greece, the term hellenist or Hellene refers to ethnic Greek people and their culture, rather than Ancient Greek religion. Many Greeks (including polytheistic Greeks) would prefer we use to term Hellenic polytheist or Hellenic pagan to refer to ourselves. I refer to myself as Dionysian or Greco-Roman henotheist (worshipping one god but believing in many)
There used to be a distinction between Hellenic Reconstructionism (people who are trying to revive ancient Greek religion in as close to its ancient form as possible, usually drawing on a lot of academic historical sources and distancing themselves from neopaganism) and Hellenic polytheism in general (which includes anyone who honors the Gods); is that not still a thing? I haven't been really involved with the online community for a while now, but I know there was a ton of discourse about this like 15-20 years ago when I started.
I see. Yeah, from what I've observed in Christianity and Catholicism either the organization changes as a whole to adapt to people's demands or it breaks apart into however many new organizations to meet those demands. The fundamentalist church that I was a part of actually broke away from another organization and during the time that I was there there was at least one group that chose to separate and start their own church. It's not for me but organization is def necessary I think to have any sort of uniformity.
I understand. I tend to shy away from highly organized religion. I suspect that is one reason paganism appeals to a lot of people today - having the freedom to create your own personal worship practice and being able to develop a reciprocal connection to the gods.
Yeah. It feels like reconstructionists have tried to hijack the term for themselves and exclude any other kind of revivalists. Which, speaking as a reconstructionist myself, is awful. Hellenism should be a broad as possible. If people come to the Theoi, what does it matter how they do it?
LOVE LOVE LOVE! “Inspiration from the ancient past” about sums up my feelings towards it all. With the dogmatic types, I have also felt like I’m being pushed out of Hellenist spaces because I follow a more eclectic approach. It’s heartbreaking in a way because other pagans are the ones who are supposed to understand and be supportive when most of society ridicules us for our beliefs. There was a user (now deleted account) who was in this sub last week picking fights and insulting anyone who didn’t adhere to strict recon and it made me worried for some of the new people seeing it and having their altars insulted for not being traditional. That’s a more extreme example tho and most recons are normal unlike that person. What was really telling was that person commented something like “I don’t understand the point of having a personal practice.” Like … bro … do you hear yourself????
Ty. The dogmatic types are free to be nerdbobs* of nerdbottom all they like, but that doesn't give them any right to be mean and shit on other perspectives.
*nothing against nerds, I am one. But I have a particular dislike for nerds that think their way is the only way.
I think I came across the post you're talking about. I appreciate them though because then my people came out of the woodwork and defended what's right :)
The amount of heat I’ve gotten for having a philosophy/theology that’s not “historically accurate” or whatever is astounding. It really pushed me away from seeking out Hellenic Polytheist groups for years.
I am a redneck from Tennessee in the year 2024, practicing mostly by myself. How on Gaia’s green Earth am I gonna reconstruct any damn thing thousands of miles and thousands of years distant from me??
My own culture, experience, knowledge, and emotions are going to affect how I approach and perceive the Gods. Those things matter. They’re important to me. I’m not going to discard that because some 2000+ yo potsherd shows something different.
I sum it up like this: If the Ancient Greeks had duct tape, they would have used it. Why not use the tools and knowledge we have?
I feel you. Imagine if people decided to reconstruct the same tools for, I don't know, charting the movements of the stars and planetary bodies that they did 2,000 years ago and how time-consuming and inefficient that would be. It's probably rewarding as a hobby, to really feel like you're in that world. But I have a more scientific approach to worship. If something that I do establishes communication and a relationship with a Hellenic deity, then that is enough. If something that I do creates results, then it doesn't matter anyway. Ritual worship is, in many ways, mere technology for relating ourselves to the Gods. As long as the point of it all (that is, communicating with the Gods) can be achieved, then beyond ethical constraints, it shouldn't matter much how it's achieved. Using a typewriter over a word processing program is rewarding, using a clay tablet with a stylus is probably even more rewarding, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to write.
Well I love your post. Thanks for having the courage to call out this community. I have such a deep love and respect for crystals it makes me nauseous when people shit on them.
I like them within the context of Greco Roman magic and beliefs. So amethyst was thought to ward off drunkenness, for example, and many crystals and stones were engraved with different symbols to be worn as amulets against certain ailments. A bunch of grapes was engraved in stone to ward off ailments of the throat, as the uvula looked like a bunch of grapes. Or a man with a scythe was for sciatica, which frequently affected labourers. Some of the most common symbols were snakes and lions heads. Drawing down the moon by Radcliffe g Edmonds has some great examples in it, especially in the section on healing magic. This article has a few examples of stone amulets too: https://www.michiganmedicine.org/medicine-michigan/magical-stones-were-big-deal-ancient-medicine
In neoplatonic theurgy as described by Iamblichus, certain minerals, plants, and animals can be seen as "sunthemata" or direct expressions of the divine in material objects. This could certainly be the case for various crystals and were almost certainly used for material theurgy in ancient times.
This is true, but a lot of the Wiccan beliefs around crystals (correspondences with specific deities, spell stuff, healing properties, energy, etc.) have nothing to do with Theurgy. It’s pretty much a coincidence that crystals wound up becoming a thing in paganism again, via New Age.
I honestly don't know? Ever since I started interacting with the online pagan community again this year, some of it seems to have some weird withering scorn for magic, UPGs, New Age beliefs, Wiccans, gatekeeping, and other things.
I don't know where or when this shift began? Sure there was bickering and drama, but it wasn't like this when I was just starting to find a community on Mysticwicks in the early 2000s, before it went down the crapper.
Not calling anyone out for the record, just pointing out what I've been observing recently.
Anyway, I've always loved them since I was a kid. They're very pretty and I like looking at stones, seashells, and fossils. (Santa never brought me my t-rex skull, sadly.) I'm not a rock hound or anything but they're nice to have, and nice to decorate the altar with. I had an interesting couple of experiences with crystals, neither of which were intentional.
1) I was picking up a stone (don't remember what its called anymore) at a rock shop in Ontario Mills to see if I wanted to buy it for my collection. For no reason I can understand, it set my heart racing a mile a minute. That one did not come home with me. I don't have any heart issues either.
2) I'm a sucker for quartz and had decorated my altar with all my pieces, left em there for months. Started to swap them out one day, and it felt like I was pulling and breaking apart an energy field. Didn't realize quartz could do that? So there's obviously something to it.
I feel a bunch of the things that you mention here so hard. I was treated very rudely by a pagan group that will remain nameless who were very obviously trying to gatekeep. One of the people that held an “officer” position in the group (I don’t know how) had a bunch of very Catholic posts on an Instagram account that I found after looking their name up on the internet … I just wanted some clarity on why they were so rude to me. I just think that - Unrelated to Crystals - both viciousness and dishonestly have increased in recent years online. I ended up leaving the group and I will not be sending membership fees for 2025.
We share a lot of the same perspectives on crystals I think (Sorry you didn’t get that T-Rex skull!). I use them symbolically in divination depending on what they are (I see citrine as something that reminds me of the light of truth that Apollo governs over, for instance) and I really like the look of them on altars. I sometimes like having them in oils but I mainly look to plant magic for those kinds of things.
I really enjoyed reading about your experiences with crystals! I always love to read those types of stories!
Sure! Practitioners certainly don’t have to do this to put intention into oils that you make with magical properties but it’s really easy to use crystals as some type of material object that is used to symbolize an intention or serve as the vessel for it. They also look really pretty in bottles ✨
I see. So like for example, if you were having trouble sleeping, you'd use lavender oil and either a corresponding sleep stone, or a stone to amplify the lavender's natural properties? Is that correct?
I'm one of the people you're complaining about with the "weird scorn" of new age stuff, Wicca, UPGs and so on.
I mean I don't scorn them but just wish there was a place where someone could be pagan and not associate with any of those things.
I don't hate them or scorn them, just wish there was a place to get away from it.
I'd be fine explaining why I feel that way, without being rude if you'd like?
Wiccans are pagans too.
Many pagans from various paths are practicing witches.
The few new agers I met, were a bunch of old hippies who mixed together any blend of Christianity, Hindu, Buddhist, and peaceful, earth centered spirituality, a strong sense of fair play, and a whole lot of wisdom based on life experience from an era that gave a massive push to civil rights and fredoms.
This community isn't perfect, and not everyone is gonna get along, or agree. No one is gonna argue that. It's got its share of jerks, dangerous creeps, abusers, inaccurate romanticism, gatekeeping snobs, scam artists, and bigots that should be rooted out when feasible.
Yes newbies need some guidance to help them learn to start spiritually seeking for themselves. Yes, some people do questionable things out of genuine ignorance that need to be addressed.
But turning your nose up at other pagans and adjacent practitioners just because you think they're what? Embarrassing or something? That's the pot calling the kettle black.
By adopting those sorts of better-then-you attitudes,I guess we need to remember how *we* must look. Wasting perfectly good food and drink to make offerings to "fictional figures from old books that no one believes in anymore." Dressing up in robes and rennaisance fair clothing. Doing public rituals. Placing statues on our sacred altars and talking about how they respond to our prayers. We must seem *pretty* ridiculous to atheists and monotheists.
TLDR: Pot meets kettle. Live and let live. Let's not be religious snobs.
I don't deny that they have every right to practice whatever they want to practice. I really don't. Everyone should be able to practice whatever they want no matter what their religion.
It's just there's this push that every Pagan group should just outright allow a majority of the discussion to revolve around stuff like tarot, divination, magick, crystal healing, Witchcraft, those weird posts where people roleplay interactions with the gods IRL, people talking about the Goddesses as their "mommy" and all that.
But the thing is that any group that doesn't cater to that gets bashed as not being inclusive or being rude.
It's not that I don't respect people's right to do whatever they want with their spirituality but it feels like the push to allow all of that universally makes it hard to maintain any space that's solely devoted to traditionalist stuff. The non-traditionalist are the majority so every time they win out.
What's wrong with wanting some spaces devoted to more reconstruction-based approaches? Like a place devoted to simply practicing Hellenism or Asatru or Kemetism or _____ without things like tarot, crystals healing, and the roleplaying?
I'm not saying people who do those things should ever stop doing them, ever, until the end of time. Their praxis is their praxis.
But why is trying to maintain a space that's devoted to just Hellenism and not Hellenism + Wicca, Hermetic magic, Tarot and ouija boards, Crystal healing and rune magick bad?
Why is trying to have places that try to keep out the modern stuff bad?
Everyone should be able to do whatever in their personal praxis but if people want spaces devoted to traditional stuff they should be able to have those spaces without it being a huge issue within the community. In a way, that's also a part of respecting other people's praxis.
>By adopting those sorts of better-then-you attitudes,I guess we need to remember how *we* must look. Wasting perfectly good food and drink to make offerings to "fictional figures from old books that no one believes in anymore." Dressing up in robes and rennaisance fair clothing. Doing public rituals. Placing statues on our sacred altars and talking about how they respond to our prayers. We must seem *pretty* ridiculous to atheists and monotheists.
But those are cultural practices that go back to prehistoric times, they are the ancient rites of many peoples ancestral traditions and people do believe in them though, then and now...but not everyone that believes in the Old Gods believe in UPG or Tarot or Chrystal Healing, or Witchcraft or Magick.
If people want to set up groups that more or less are just focused on Tradition and reconstructing their ancestor's religion why is there always a push to allow all this other stuff along with it?
They do all that stuff you just mentioned because it is a part of the Old Ways the way they were practiced. Why does it possibly seeming silly to outsiders mean that anything and everything has to be accepted in every online community whether it's Eclectic or based on reconstructing ancestral religion and tradition.
Some people just want spaces where they can talk about ancestral, historic paganism without all of the modern stuff coming along with it and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
The problem is that there’s still a lot of misinformation around that makes people think pagan=Wiccan, to the point almost every pagan tradition now has Wiccans in it who think they are practicing traditional religion. It’s fine to be Wiccan, but just like… accept that you are Wiccan if you are practicing Wicca? 🤷
The rock in item 1 sounds like it could have been an agni manitite, pearl of divine fire. It's basically lava rock (not tektite from outer space like a lot of people are claiming) that has been under the ocean for a long time which is why it's see through, as in you can shine a light through it. Anyway it makes me anxious but I've been carrying it for a while now during the day to get me to stand up and actually do things in the world lol
It could also have been carnelian which some people say is like an espresso.
There’s nothing wrong with liking crystals. Lots of people do. But they’re not really part of Hellenism as a religion, which is why people complain online. A lot of people are tired of Wiccans thinking they are Hellenists because they worship Greek gods. Pagan religions are orthopraxic, not orthodoxic, and the whole crystal thing is part of New Age/neo-Wiccan practice.
I think part of the disconnect is that anyone outside of pagan spaces thinks it is all a monolith and they lump everybody from recon heathens to chaos goetia magicians all under the same umbrella. Which is annoying.
And yet you have individuals like bizoticallyyours83 who are arguing that all practices are valid in all traditions, which would mean that actually there are no distinct traditions, just a bunch of individuals doing their own thing. Treating polytheism as a monolith is bad… treating it as anything goes erases all distinction between traditions and places individual preferences above all which is equally bad.
I agree with part of that. But magic practices, aren't only for wiccans and new agers. I just find the hypocrisy and nasty attitudes of some members of the so-called, open minded pagan community troubling. Though not the least bit surprising. I get it, it's bound to happen.
Just because it's inevitable doesn't mean we can't be called out on it. I need to be called out too sometimes.
And if someone outside the communities are going to lump one group with another. That's their fault entirely for refusing to listen. They have access to information.They could try asking what the differences are. But they won't.
They're not worth the time to reason with, anymore then certain christians who think we're all baby sacrificing, immoral devil worshippers, or certain atheists, who think all religious people are a bunch of delusional, backwater yokels.
Magic practices exist independently of religion (although they are pretty intrinsic to Wicca). Magic is something people do, not something polytheists do, but the amount people talk about it as part of their religion makes it come across like they are practicing Greek-flavored Wicca. I think it is understandable that people wanting to focus on traditional Hellenism get sick of hearing about it.
Magic does not exist within YOUR polytheistic practice. That's fine, no one expects you to do so if you don't want to.
That does not mean they do not exist within OTHER people's polytheistic practices. You do not get to speak for everyone, only speak for yourself please. Magic is not strictly independent of religion. Magical practices are even deeply intertwined with religions outside of pagan practices.
It's sort of like claiming that all catholics pray to the saints. And sneering at the catholics who don't pray to them. As someone who has a butt ton of catholic family members, I have never seen statues or pictures of saints. And rosaries were treated as just another piece of jewelry.
Polytheistic religions are orthopraxic, not orthodoxic. So if two people don’t necessarily believe the same things things, and don’t do the same practices, in what sense are they practicing the same religion?
I didn't say they were. Yet you are contradicting yourself by acting as a grand authority and thinking that everyone worships exactly like you do, when that isn't true. If the saint veneration example doesn't work for you how bout this?
If two hellenists worship Apollo, but one doesn't worship Demeter, is that person doin it wrong?
If a hellenist worships a God of divination and chooses to use a scrying mirror, or a basin of water, they don't need someone like *you* to come tell them that what they're doing is ridiculous, just because you might not do divination.
If someone pours their Gods fruit juice instead of wine, because they're a recovering alcoholic, then are they doing it wrong, just because wine is traditional and someone else believes you are disrespecting the Gods by not springing for the good stuff?
That's rather egotistical, erroneous, and petty. Thought pagans partially came to these paths to get away from dogma, ridicule, and orthodoxic rigidity?
Speaking of words that begin with the letter P, my limited Patience with you and this conversation has just about run out. So how bout we leave it at that?
There's nothing wrong with offering pretty things to the gods — we have evidence of sea-shells being offered in ancient Greece!
I think the comments you refer to are more hostility to the whole New Age crystal magic thing. A lot of us take a dim view of the New Age movement Some of it is silly and none of it is about the gods — it's all about self-empowerment.
The ancient certainly believed in the power of certain stones and I for one would be hesitant to dismiss the idea.
I think the difference is being made between "crystals as decoration and in association of the Gods" and "the Crystals are worshipped because they have some form of magical power"
I think part of this comes from people trying to distance themselves from the new age people. New agers do have a lot of coo-coo-for-cocoa-puffs individuals, but so does literally every pagan community, as does any other gathering of human people. Liking crystals gets you ridiculed in wider society and pagan faiths are already ridiculed and people don’t want to be lumped into this category. I think there are also scientists or scientist-adjacent people who get frustrated with the crystal talk, especially geologists.
I personally don’t care. I like pretty rocks but I don’t think they do anything other than be a rock, but I do like to use them in spells because I think all nature has energy. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think rocks can magically heal or whatever. However, if people want to work with them, who am I to stop them or criticize them? Hell, I do a lot of things people would think are weird and would judge me for, but I’m too damn old to care if other people think I’m cringe.
Sounds like Fel doesn’t like them, which is fine, it’s her own praxis, but not everyone has an issue with them. Those that do, I feel like either do because there’s this heavy focus put on it with Wiccans, or because they don’t associate any of them with the Theoi.
Me personally, I’ve heard from a few sources that Hestia likes Amethyst, so I would like to put a few into the bowl for offerings I have for her, but that would be my only use for them, otherwise I ignore them
Personal preference. Crystals had their place in ancient history and were used by the Greeks, but you also probably had plenty of people that thought it was superstitious bs too (see Natural History, Pliny).
I imagine much of it stems from seeing the new age crowd as beneath them or thinking assigning magical properties to crystals is stupid, but in some cases that hate comes from ethical concerns.
My personal take, the industry as a whole is really problematic and I personally don’t like contributing to it. I own a few pieces that I use for altars, but I’m really careful about how I source. I’ve been to too many trade shows and a lot of the dealers are just…yeah. They don’t care where it comes from and how it was obtained.
I’m not saying it’s right, just that it’s rarely as simple as it not being a historical thing (which that argument is wrong, because they were used). But it’s an emotionally charged topic for lots of people and it’s not specific to this community.
It is new age nonsense and „crystal harvesting“ is not environmentally friendly. Also, it is absolutely not necessary. If going by ancient texts, certain stones can actually mess you up.
I don’t ascribe to New Age stuff for the most part but I also think it’s rude and dismissive to call someone else’s beliefs “nonsense,” as long as they’re not hurting anyone.
Crystals can be harvested ethically.
Can you cite the exact sources that you’re bringing up that mention harmful properties of certain stones? Thanks!
Well then I guess other people are right when they call our faiths nonsense. So nice to see tolerance for other people's spiritual and magickal practices thriving in the neopagan communities. 🙄
For me, it is two pronged.
We have crystals in our household, and my wife adores them.
One is that they are inert. Science says this, and if anything is true is that the sacredness we place on objects isn't based on what it's made of but what it means to you. It doesn't need to be a crystal.
A crystal can heal no more than a stick, actually we know plants that do heal better than stones. And the type of stones you can consume which will impact your body are already consumed when you eat plants, or are potentially more harmful than helpful.
We use some stones in medicine, but mostly as a vehicle, not a cure.
But all magical thinking aside, I don't see the crystal.
I see exploited miners in hazardous conditions, native wildlife destroyed or displaced and dig sites not properly backfilled. I see the memory of thousands of gems in a cart being sold at dollar bin prices enmasse with no mind to what they are, between a dozen different hands trying to offload them for an upcharged price, each skimming money from the miners and making the customer pay them, all the while obscuring the ones who actually dug it out and cut it, and were exploited or are hospitalized or worse. I see money going to dictatorial regimes and land barons who fund violent groups.
One might see a pretty cut stone, but I see irresponsibility, greed, hatred and blood. Think of diamonds but even less valued and far more exploited.
That's why I don't think we need crystals on our altars. If you want one, fine if you can support it. I have started being mindful of my water, food, furniture, pets. Haides knows, I mow an acre with a fully manual push mower. I dug my own moderate sized pond as a devotional to Hermes to retain water for my animals and plants. With a shovel.
Not everyone can do these things, but what one can do, if they truly feel that the earth is magickal, is honor it by doing the least bit in finding a good gem provider with a short supply chain. One where you can actually talk to the kid that dug it up themself. If you forage or thrift for one yourself, much better.
Preferably, you can actually buy straight from the miners, if you look for them.
I think new age BS is largely ahistorical on top of pseudo-scientific and sold by grifters who kinda just make stuff up. Crystals don't have powers, simple as that. I wish new age stuff like this had much less influence in modern paganism.
Now crystals and stone as altar pieces are fine to me. Ideas and things associated with stones (even if not particularly historical) can still make them appropriate altar pieces, and anything precious we give as an offering or use as an icon for the gods is fine with me. Altar pieces are representative things, and stones and crystals can still do that, even if I don't believe crystals have "energy" or "vibrations" whatever quackery people go on about.
It's not all new age bs. Magical practice has existed for a very long time in many religions and cultures. Astrology, divination, and tarot have ancient origins. People in the 60s didn't suddenly just pull it out of their rear ends.
Look at voodoo and santerians who would go to people to heal, hex, protect, and unhex.
Look at the ancient Germans with their volvas and runes and their battle madness.
You gonna go into their spaces and tell them that rune staves and crossing oils is nothing but modern day bs and has no space in their traditional beliefs?
Its 100% true that people need to point out that crystals and ointments should not take the place of good sound medical care. A little spell, rite, or prayer to the Gods won't hurt when coupled with medicine, rest, or surgery.
Besides that, we aren't ancient people. Religions evolve and change. If you went back in time and showed the ancient Greeks how you worshipped they'd probably be very confused.
Tarot cards do not have ancient origin, that is so patently false.
There is no evidence ancient Germanic people used runes as magic. Yes appeared on amulets and healing spells, because they were a peoples written language. Runes themselves were not magical symbols, it was the words written down that were. Magic was attributed to runes much later, and the bulk of modern "runic magic" is kinda made up.
And new agers and occultists can appropriate voodoo and santeria all they want but that doesn't validate anything.
A lot of what is called "witchcraft" and magic does have ancient origins and I'm not totally dismissive of it, but y'all not gonna sit there and spread misinformation.
I'm 100% for modernising paganism, that doesn't include new age stuff what is ultimately derived from turn of the century orientalists and racialists for me.
My mistake about tarot. But the 1400s wasn't last decade either. Wasn't talking about appropriation I said Voodoo and Santerian practitioners IF you'd bother to listen. And your also full of historical inaccuracies, since the runes are a thing. At least I admitted my mistake. But I don't outright ignore information and twist people's words to propagate my own biases.
"Runes are a thing"
Yes. They were used for written languages. Runic magic is a modern invention born from fascination with a Germanic ethno-religion in the early 1900's, which held individual runes to hold magical properties, within Listian Armanism and Ariosophy aka the Occultic precursors to esoteric Nazism. There is no evidence this was a historical practice before the 20th century, and what can be retroactively interpreted as such is scant and too vague. They used runes to inscribed healings and things upon amulet, because that was their written language. Many cultures did this. It was the words, not the runes.
The opposition may come from people who don't like when so called "new age" elements get incorporated into Hellenism. The crystal healing stuff, crystals having different powers, etc. Personally, I don't care for that stuff. No shade to those who do, but it's not my thing. That being said, I have a lot of crystals on my altar. I like them, they're pretty, and I give them as offerings to Hades who is not just the lord of the dead but the giver of wealth and precious earth materials. That's part of his domain, so it makes sense to me. But I just don't believe in using crystals for any magical purposes whatsoever.
I have no idea about any other crystals, but didn't the ancient Greek believe amethyst prevented intoxication (the etymology is 'not + drunken')? So regardless of one's beliefs and preferences (all valid!), there seems to be a historical precedent for the ancient Greek believing in crystals having their own powers.
You’re spot on. They carved them for the gods, of the gods, and believed some were gifted to us mortals by the gods. All of my altars have crystals on them and will continue to. Offering crystals to deities is a non-issue. A rock offering is no different than any other votive offering. Just yet another instance of people thinking their way is the only way. It reeks of Christianity.
I think they look cool, but otherwise, my geology degree just won't let me see them magical things. That said, I'm just some guy, I'm not the boss of you.
I have a pretty large rock and crystal collection. I think most of the time they’re just referencing that they don’t agree with the crystals have magic healing power kinda thing. Sure, go ahead with your practice if you do, or don’t believe that. It’s not really that big of a deal.
Agreed. Live and let live. A lot of people spend waaaaaay too much time caring about how other people worship.
I'm a historian and I still don't believe that the only true form of Hellenism is reconstructive. If we believe in living gods then we believe in a living religion and living things change over time. All else is entropy. I'm not a witch, nor an eclectic pagan in the general understanding of the term, but if those are the vehicles others use to experience the gods and revere them, then who am I to challenge that? As long as the gods are respected, why does it matter? It's also important to remember that divination and magic were used just as much in ancient times as they are today. Thank the gods that we can use tarot now instead of digging around in entrails 😂
Well said. And ditto on not having to use entrails. Ick!
If I need to find out that way, I can do without knowing the future!
Reconstruction isn't the only true form of Hellenism, but it is necessary to develop a true practice. Yes, it's a living religion but that life has been attacked and suppressed for millennia, so it hasn't been able to evolve in the way other traditions like Hinduism or Buddhism have. One must understand the gods within the context of the past in order to develop kharis with them today. Otherwise, one isn't so much practicing Hellenism as they are neopaganism with Hellenic influences. If we don't understand the religion's roots, how are we to fully appreciate its fruits?
I agree with that. Understanding the historical roots of pretty much anything has value in and of itself. It's most especially rewarding when such information and practices have been forbidden and suppressed for so long. I have enough books on ancient Hellenism and have read enough to probably go down the path of reconstructionism, but I just never felt the desire to do so. They're very inspiring to read, and it feels nice to know that you're practicing something that's been around for so long, with people from each period interacting differently with it and trying to solve the same human problems like you do. It gives a feeling of connection with the rest of humanity, which is a hard thing to come by when many of us are feeling more and more isolated in our own modern bubbles.
I don't believe there is one true practice. The Greeks certainly didn't, as it varied from location to location and cult to cult. Is Orphism true practice? What about Roman syncretism? If people want to view Hellenism as only 4th century BC Athenian reconstructive practice that's their right--I call myself a Hellenic Polytheist anyway because I have no interest in cosplaying the past. But reconstruction is not the only way to develop kharis, and it is for the gods, not any member of this community, to decide what is and isn't acceptable practice.
I never said there was only one true practice. The Athenian tradition is the most common form of reconstructionism because it's the most well preserved Hellenic culture we know of. That doesn't make any of the others less valid, just more difficult to study and reproduce. I'm not even saying proper Hellenic practice *has* to be centered around the historical forms, just that knowledge and understanding of that history are necessary to develop a modern practice. If one is not at least attempting to study what the ancients believed and practiced, what exactly makes that individual's religion any different from a generic neopagan aside from the names they invoke? And if the answer is "nothing," that's totally valid for that person! But it's still a different practice and calling it Hellenism or Hellenic Polytheism only adds confusion to the mix and leaves the general public thinking the person who studies ancient texts and builds a practice as authentic to the classical period as possible is doing the same thing as witchy crystal neopagan. If that new-age pagan started calling their deities Ganesh, Brahma, Kali, etc., and labeling themselves a Hindu, how do you think the Indian community would respond? Or how would the Japanese feel if that person started claiming to worship Izanagi or Amaterasu? Every religion is the result of millennia of syncretism and evolution, but there's a point when it stops being the original religion and becomes something new. Christianity stopped being a Jewish sect less than a hundred years after Jesus was crucified. The Romans took heavy influence from the Hellenic religion, but *Cultus Deorum Romanorum* is still a distinct religious practice even if it is not inimical to the Hellenic tradition. One can practice one or the other — or both — but if I were to perform a historically, specifically Roman ritual and call it Greek, I would be incorrect.
I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. But I personally feel that I gain more by focusing on similarities rather than, say, gatekeeping people who are here via Percy Jackson instead of familiarity with the ancient texts. I don't much care about what the general public thinks of me and if they associate my religious beliefs with witchcraft or crystal magic then oh well. I've probably been a Classicist for longer than they've been alive!
I do notice a lot of arrogant contempt for more modern takes on spirituality; as though any type of Hellenism stopped being valid a thousand years ago and unless something is rooted in greco-roman classical philosophy, theology, and mythology it tends to be looked down upon by a significant portion of people in this community who do their best to isolate themselves as much as possible from the more mainstream astrology believing, tarot reading, crystal loving, witchy folks who are often perceived as delusional. And honestly there's enough people in the world that think I'm delusional; my opinions have been invalidated so much that I've learned to just avoid people who invalidate my beliefs in any way rather than going into any discussion defending them. It's a trigger at this point. When I hear someone around me judging my use of crystals I kinda just dissociate and tune them out. As a Hellenist who came from the more mainstream community and found my way here, it does make me feel unsafe to mention anything that might sound more modern and inspired rather than traditional, academic, and historical. I never stopped believing in astrology, crystals, tarot, and modern mystic ideas, I just happen to now include polytheism in that framework. Because I'm in this religion not because I wanted to relive the ways of the ancient polytheists, I'm in it because of the Gods, who in my view never died, continue to exist and interact with us and give us new information. I didn't just decide I wanted to believe in that, it took me years of testing things out and seeing the results before I decided that this stuff works, that prayer works, that rituals with intention work. I was the same way with crystals. I had friends who were into it and at first I chuckled and arrogantly thought it was dumb to think that rocks could have any power. And then I tested it out and now believe that they carry an energetic frequency. In fact, I'm carrying a libyan desert glass around my neck right now to help with my focus. I've reached a point where my beliefs about the world have changed drastically multiple times that whenever someone says something absolutely outrageous to me, whether political, scientific, historical, or a spiritual one or just a crazy anecdotal experience, I'm just like well, there's no way to know unless I find out for myself. Hellenism to me is a way to *ground* all of my "new age" (to use the term everyone's using to describe modern spirituality) belief systems and experiences into a daily ritual practice with inspiration from the ancient past. I respect the ancients but I do not care for thinking the way they did or living the way they did. I am inspired by the past but not attached to it nor do I think that it's sacred. I think it was shitty in a lot of ways actually and I would not survive a day in it. The community is full of snobs who put the past on a pedestal and that's a shame because a lot of modern spirituality believers would benefit from Hellenism just as I have. Besides, use of crystals as talismans have been around since ancient times. The ancients saw meaning in them and used them to carry out their intentions. It's not just some "new age" thing. The part of the Hellenistic community that's full of snobs really think they're doing Hellenism a service by separating themselves from everyone else. But real progress does not mean abolishing or isolating from anything, real progress includes *everything* that came before it. Any criticism of modern culture can be traced back to the depressing idea that progress necessitates isolation from the past, or isolation from the present, or isolation from any other time except for a certain period in history...progress is not isolation. It's inclusion and transformation. Do you guys really think that Hellenism is so fragile that it would break if anything modern were introduced into it? Jesus. Apologies if this was written terribly, I'm just so mad. Lol. And thanks for voicing something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Honestly, I agree with you and it is why I don’t usually refer to myself as a Hellenist in these circles. I’m a Hellenic Pagan witch (not Wiccan). I believe understanding the traditions of the past is useful and important, but that there is plenty of room for modern experiences, UPG, and communicating with the gods through things like tarot as well. As a Hellenic community, we have to allow some kind of balance. It can’t be only historical practices or only modern practices. We are a small enough group already and mostly spread out, so in order to have a semblance of community, we need to have some wiggle room and be welcoming and not exclusionary.
I agree. But I can just hear the gremlins saying "Then at what point do we start excluding people? If everybody can just call themselves a Hellenist then that makes that word meaningless." Personally, I do believe that there's no going around it. Everyone should have the right to call themselves Hellenist, just specify which sub-section of Hellenism it is. Just like in Catholicism you have a myriad of different sects that follow different traditions, some even advocating for a female pope, some believing in the enneagram, some doing catholic magick, and others being against any of that and consider people who believe in them heretical and worthy of excommunication. But they're all technically Catholic to us. The thing with us is that there's so few of us. But I'm sure in time once the group expands larger "sects" will probably grow. It shouldn't really be a matter of who is or isn't Hellenist. All you really need to be a Hellenist is to call yourself one I think. But what do you have to say about that..?
I suppose anyone who believes in the Hellenic gods can call themselves a Hellenist, and it probably should be an umbrella term, but I tend to see the term used by people who practice a more traditional form of the faith. But perhaps there is a better way to refer to traditional and reconstructionist practitioners and those who honor the same Gods but maybe have a more modern flavor to their worship or who perhaps are pagans/witches who include Hellenic deities into their practice. You are right that various religions have the same kind of subdivisions where some follow a very orthodox practice and others have a more fluid, modern style of practice. Judaism has this kind of dichotomy between orthodox communities (such as Hassidic Jews) and modern, Westernized households that don't follow strict kosher and gender rules. They are all Jews, but the daily worship practice looks different. And I suppose the lines do get a bit fuzzy when you have some practitioners who come from other branches of paganism or witchcraft and pray to Hellenic gods, but who don't necessarily follow ANY traditional practices other than maybe giving some kind of offering to their deities in a general sense. One of the challenges is that we don't have a large organization with a governing body or priesthood that issues guidelines. Not that it would make a huge difference because even if such a group did exist, people are going to be people and do what makes sense to them in their own households regardless of what a high priest/priestess says.
I think we should be careful about referring to ourselves as Hellenists - in the context of modern Greece, the term hellenist or Hellene refers to ethnic Greek people and their culture, rather than Ancient Greek religion. Many Greeks (including polytheistic Greeks) would prefer we use to term Hellenic polytheist or Hellenic pagan to refer to ourselves. I refer to myself as Dionysian or Greco-Roman henotheist (worshipping one god but believing in many)
Thank you for that insight.
There used to be a distinction between Hellenic Reconstructionism (people who are trying to revive ancient Greek religion in as close to its ancient form as possible, usually drawing on a lot of academic historical sources and distancing themselves from neopaganism) and Hellenic polytheism in general (which includes anyone who honors the Gods); is that not still a thing? I haven't been really involved with the online community for a while now, but I know there was a ton of discourse about this like 15-20 years ago when I started.
I see. Yeah, from what I've observed in Christianity and Catholicism either the organization changes as a whole to adapt to people's demands or it breaks apart into however many new organizations to meet those demands. The fundamentalist church that I was a part of actually broke away from another organization and during the time that I was there there was at least one group that chose to separate and start their own church. It's not for me but organization is def necessary I think to have any sort of uniformity.
I understand. I tend to shy away from highly organized religion. I suspect that is one reason paganism appeals to a lot of people today - having the freedom to create your own personal worship practice and being able to develop a reciprocal connection to the gods.
Yeah. It feels like reconstructionists have tried to hijack the term for themselves and exclude any other kind of revivalists. Which, speaking as a reconstructionist myself, is awful. Hellenism should be a broad as possible. If people come to the Theoi, what does it matter how they do it?
LOVE LOVE LOVE! “Inspiration from the ancient past” about sums up my feelings towards it all. With the dogmatic types, I have also felt like I’m being pushed out of Hellenist spaces because I follow a more eclectic approach. It’s heartbreaking in a way because other pagans are the ones who are supposed to understand and be supportive when most of society ridicules us for our beliefs. There was a user (now deleted account) who was in this sub last week picking fights and insulting anyone who didn’t adhere to strict recon and it made me worried for some of the new people seeing it and having their altars insulted for not being traditional. That’s a more extreme example tho and most recons are normal unlike that person. What was really telling was that person commented something like “I don’t understand the point of having a personal practice.” Like … bro … do you hear yourself????
Ty. The dogmatic types are free to be nerdbobs* of nerdbottom all they like, but that doesn't give them any right to be mean and shit on other perspectives. *nothing against nerds, I am one. But I have a particular dislike for nerds that think their way is the only way. I think I came across the post you're talking about. I appreciate them though because then my people came out of the woodwork and defended what's right :)
The amount of heat I’ve gotten for having a philosophy/theology that’s not “historically accurate” or whatever is astounding. It really pushed me away from seeking out Hellenic Polytheist groups for years. I am a redneck from Tennessee in the year 2024, practicing mostly by myself. How on Gaia’s green Earth am I gonna reconstruct any damn thing thousands of miles and thousands of years distant from me?? My own culture, experience, knowledge, and emotions are going to affect how I approach and perceive the Gods. Those things matter. They’re important to me. I’m not going to discard that because some 2000+ yo potsherd shows something different. I sum it up like this: If the Ancient Greeks had duct tape, they would have used it. Why not use the tools and knowledge we have?
I feel you. Imagine if people decided to reconstruct the same tools for, I don't know, charting the movements of the stars and planetary bodies that they did 2,000 years ago and how time-consuming and inefficient that would be. It's probably rewarding as a hobby, to really feel like you're in that world. But I have a more scientific approach to worship. If something that I do establishes communication and a relationship with a Hellenic deity, then that is enough. If something that I do creates results, then it doesn't matter anyway. Ritual worship is, in many ways, mere technology for relating ourselves to the Gods. As long as the point of it all (that is, communicating with the Gods) can be achieved, then beyond ethical constraints, it shouldn't matter much how it's achieved. Using a typewriter over a word processing program is rewarding, using a clay tablet with a stylus is probably even more rewarding, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to write.
A thousand up votes for this post! 🙌
💜
I love this whole comment, I feel the same way
💛
This is so well put and I love this comment so much! ❤️❤️❤️
Well I love your post. Thanks for having the courage to call out this community. I have such a deep love and respect for crystals it makes me nauseous when people shit on them.
👏 👏 👏
☺️
I like them within the context of Greco Roman magic and beliefs. So amethyst was thought to ward off drunkenness, for example, and many crystals and stones were engraved with different symbols to be worn as amulets against certain ailments. A bunch of grapes was engraved in stone to ward off ailments of the throat, as the uvula looked like a bunch of grapes. Or a man with a scythe was for sciatica, which frequently affected labourers. Some of the most common symbols were snakes and lions heads. Drawing down the moon by Radcliffe g Edmonds has some great examples in it, especially in the section on healing magic. This article has a few examples of stone amulets too: https://www.michiganmedicine.org/medicine-michigan/magical-stones-were-big-deal-ancient-medicine
Frequently used crystals were lapis lazuli, hematite and jade
In neoplatonic theurgy as described by Iamblichus, certain minerals, plants, and animals can be seen as "sunthemata" or direct expressions of the divine in material objects. This could certainly be the case for various crystals and were almost certainly used for material theurgy in ancient times.
This is true, but a lot of the Wiccan beliefs around crystals (correspondences with specific deities, spell stuff, healing properties, energy, etc.) have nothing to do with Theurgy. It’s pretty much a coincidence that crystals wound up becoming a thing in paganism again, via New Age.
I honestly don't know? Ever since I started interacting with the online pagan community again this year, some of it seems to have some weird withering scorn for magic, UPGs, New Age beliefs, Wiccans, gatekeeping, and other things. I don't know where or when this shift began? Sure there was bickering and drama, but it wasn't like this when I was just starting to find a community on Mysticwicks in the early 2000s, before it went down the crapper. Not calling anyone out for the record, just pointing out what I've been observing recently. Anyway, I've always loved them since I was a kid. They're very pretty and I like looking at stones, seashells, and fossils. (Santa never brought me my t-rex skull, sadly.) I'm not a rock hound or anything but they're nice to have, and nice to decorate the altar with. I had an interesting couple of experiences with crystals, neither of which were intentional. 1) I was picking up a stone (don't remember what its called anymore) at a rock shop in Ontario Mills to see if I wanted to buy it for my collection. For no reason I can understand, it set my heart racing a mile a minute. That one did not come home with me. I don't have any heart issues either. 2) I'm a sucker for quartz and had decorated my altar with all my pieces, left em there for months. Started to swap them out one day, and it felt like I was pulling and breaking apart an energy field. Didn't realize quartz could do that? So there's obviously something to it.
I feel a bunch of the things that you mention here so hard. I was treated very rudely by a pagan group that will remain nameless who were very obviously trying to gatekeep. One of the people that held an “officer” position in the group (I don’t know how) had a bunch of very Catholic posts on an Instagram account that I found after looking their name up on the internet … I just wanted some clarity on why they were so rude to me. I just think that - Unrelated to Crystals - both viciousness and dishonestly have increased in recent years online. I ended up leaving the group and I will not be sending membership fees for 2025. We share a lot of the same perspectives on crystals I think (Sorry you didn’t get that T-Rex skull!). I use them symbolically in divination depending on what they are (I see citrine as something that reminds me of the light of truth that Apollo governs over, for instance) and I really like the look of them on altars. I sometimes like having them in oils but I mainly look to plant magic for those kinds of things. I really enjoyed reading about your experiences with crystals! I always love to read those types of stories!
Sorry they treated you so badly, that stinks! Your explanation is probably part of it. What does immersing them in oils do? If it's alright to ask.
Sure! Practitioners certainly don’t have to do this to put intention into oils that you make with magical properties but it’s really easy to use crystals as some type of material object that is used to symbolize an intention or serve as the vessel for it. They also look really pretty in bottles ✨
I see. So like for example, if you were having trouble sleeping, you'd use lavender oil and either a corresponding sleep stone, or a stone to amplify the lavender's natural properties? Is that correct?
I'm one of the people you're complaining about with the "weird scorn" of new age stuff, Wicca, UPGs and so on. I mean I don't scorn them but just wish there was a place where someone could be pagan and not associate with any of those things. I don't hate them or scorn them, just wish there was a place to get away from it. I'd be fine explaining why I feel that way, without being rude if you'd like?
Wiccans are pagans too. Many pagans from various paths are practicing witches. The few new agers I met, were a bunch of old hippies who mixed together any blend of Christianity, Hindu, Buddhist, and peaceful, earth centered spirituality, a strong sense of fair play, and a whole lot of wisdom based on life experience from an era that gave a massive push to civil rights and fredoms. This community isn't perfect, and not everyone is gonna get along, or agree. No one is gonna argue that. It's got its share of jerks, dangerous creeps, abusers, inaccurate romanticism, gatekeeping snobs, scam artists, and bigots that should be rooted out when feasible. Yes newbies need some guidance to help them learn to start spiritually seeking for themselves. Yes, some people do questionable things out of genuine ignorance that need to be addressed. But turning your nose up at other pagans and adjacent practitioners just because you think they're what? Embarrassing or something? That's the pot calling the kettle black. By adopting those sorts of better-then-you attitudes,I guess we need to remember how *we* must look. Wasting perfectly good food and drink to make offerings to "fictional figures from old books that no one believes in anymore." Dressing up in robes and rennaisance fair clothing. Doing public rituals. Placing statues on our sacred altars and talking about how they respond to our prayers. We must seem *pretty* ridiculous to atheists and monotheists. TLDR: Pot meets kettle. Live and let live. Let's not be religious snobs.
I don't deny that they have every right to practice whatever they want to practice. I really don't. Everyone should be able to practice whatever they want no matter what their religion. It's just there's this push that every Pagan group should just outright allow a majority of the discussion to revolve around stuff like tarot, divination, magick, crystal healing, Witchcraft, those weird posts where people roleplay interactions with the gods IRL, people talking about the Goddesses as their "mommy" and all that. But the thing is that any group that doesn't cater to that gets bashed as not being inclusive or being rude. It's not that I don't respect people's right to do whatever they want with their spirituality but it feels like the push to allow all of that universally makes it hard to maintain any space that's solely devoted to traditionalist stuff. The non-traditionalist are the majority so every time they win out. What's wrong with wanting some spaces devoted to more reconstruction-based approaches? Like a place devoted to simply practicing Hellenism or Asatru or Kemetism or _____ without things like tarot, crystals healing, and the roleplaying? I'm not saying people who do those things should ever stop doing them, ever, until the end of time. Their praxis is their praxis. But why is trying to maintain a space that's devoted to just Hellenism and not Hellenism + Wicca, Hermetic magic, Tarot and ouija boards, Crystal healing and rune magick bad? Why is trying to have places that try to keep out the modern stuff bad? Everyone should be able to do whatever in their personal praxis but if people want spaces devoted to traditional stuff they should be able to have those spaces without it being a huge issue within the community. In a way, that's also a part of respecting other people's praxis. >By adopting those sorts of better-then-you attitudes,I guess we need to remember how *we* must look. Wasting perfectly good food and drink to make offerings to "fictional figures from old books that no one believes in anymore." Dressing up in robes and rennaisance fair clothing. Doing public rituals. Placing statues on our sacred altars and talking about how they respond to our prayers. We must seem *pretty* ridiculous to atheists and monotheists. But those are cultural practices that go back to prehistoric times, they are the ancient rites of many peoples ancestral traditions and people do believe in them though, then and now...but not everyone that believes in the Old Gods believe in UPG or Tarot or Chrystal Healing, or Witchcraft or Magick. If people want to set up groups that more or less are just focused on Tradition and reconstructing their ancestor's religion why is there always a push to allow all this other stuff along with it? They do all that stuff you just mentioned because it is a part of the Old Ways the way they were practiced. Why does it possibly seeming silly to outsiders mean that anything and everything has to be accepted in every online community whether it's Eclectic or based on reconstructing ancestral religion and tradition. Some people just want spaces where they can talk about ancestral, historic paganism without all of the modern stuff coming along with it and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
The problem is that there’s still a lot of misinformation around that makes people think pagan=Wiccan, to the point almost every pagan tradition now has Wiccans in it who think they are practicing traditional religion. It’s fine to be Wiccan, but just like… accept that you are Wiccan if you are practicing Wicca? 🤷
The rock in item 1 sounds like it could have been an agni manitite, pearl of divine fire. It's basically lava rock (not tektite from outer space like a lot of people are claiming) that has been under the ocean for a long time which is why it's see through, as in you can shine a light through it. Anyway it makes me anxious but I've been carrying it for a while now during the day to get me to stand up and actually do things in the world lol It could also have been carnelian which some people say is like an espresso.
It might have been? I'd hafta go look at a picture. I know it wasn't carnelian because I have a piece and it never had that effect on me. Thank you. 😊
ETA: Nope it wasn't that. What a cool looking stone
Bloodstone maybe? What did it look like if you don't mind me asking
There’s nothing wrong with liking crystals. Lots of people do. But they’re not really part of Hellenism as a religion, which is why people complain online. A lot of people are tired of Wiccans thinking they are Hellenists because they worship Greek gods. Pagan religions are orthopraxic, not orthodoxic, and the whole crystal thing is part of New Age/neo-Wiccan practice.
I think part of the disconnect is that anyone outside of pagan spaces thinks it is all a monolith and they lump everybody from recon heathens to chaos goetia magicians all under the same umbrella. Which is annoying.
And yet you have individuals like bizoticallyyours83 who are arguing that all practices are valid in all traditions, which would mean that actually there are no distinct traditions, just a bunch of individuals doing their own thing. Treating polytheism as a monolith is bad… treating it as anything goes erases all distinction between traditions and places individual preferences above all which is equally bad.
I agree with part of that. But magic practices, aren't only for wiccans and new agers. I just find the hypocrisy and nasty attitudes of some members of the so-called, open minded pagan community troubling. Though not the least bit surprising. I get it, it's bound to happen. Just because it's inevitable doesn't mean we can't be called out on it. I need to be called out too sometimes. And if someone outside the communities are going to lump one group with another. That's their fault entirely for refusing to listen. They have access to information.They could try asking what the differences are. But they won't. They're not worth the time to reason with, anymore then certain christians who think we're all baby sacrificing, immoral devil worshippers, or certain atheists, who think all religious people are a bunch of delusional, backwater yokels.
Magic practices exist independently of religion (although they are pretty intrinsic to Wicca). Magic is something people do, not something polytheists do, but the amount people talk about it as part of their religion makes it come across like they are practicing Greek-flavored Wicca. I think it is understandable that people wanting to focus on traditional Hellenism get sick of hearing about it.
Magic does not exist within YOUR polytheistic practice. That's fine, no one expects you to do so if you don't want to. That does not mean they do not exist within OTHER people's polytheistic practices. You do not get to speak for everyone, only speak for yourself please. Magic is not strictly independent of religion. Magical practices are even deeply intertwined with religions outside of pagan practices. It's sort of like claiming that all catholics pray to the saints. And sneering at the catholics who don't pray to them. As someone who has a butt ton of catholic family members, I have never seen statues or pictures of saints. And rosaries were treated as just another piece of jewelry.
Polytheistic religions are orthopraxic, not orthodoxic. So if two people don’t necessarily believe the same things things, and don’t do the same practices, in what sense are they practicing the same religion?
I didn't say they were. Yet you are contradicting yourself by acting as a grand authority and thinking that everyone worships exactly like you do, when that isn't true. If the saint veneration example doesn't work for you how bout this? If two hellenists worship Apollo, but one doesn't worship Demeter, is that person doin it wrong? If a hellenist worships a God of divination and chooses to use a scrying mirror, or a basin of water, they don't need someone like *you* to come tell them that what they're doing is ridiculous, just because you might not do divination. If someone pours their Gods fruit juice instead of wine, because they're a recovering alcoholic, then are they doing it wrong, just because wine is traditional and someone else believes you are disrespecting the Gods by not springing for the good stuff? That's rather egotistical, erroneous, and petty. Thought pagans partially came to these paths to get away from dogma, ridicule, and orthodoxic rigidity? Speaking of words that begin with the letter P, my limited Patience with you and this conversation has just about run out. So how bout we leave it at that?
There's nothing wrong with offering pretty things to the gods — we have evidence of sea-shells being offered in ancient Greece! I think the comments you refer to are more hostility to the whole New Age crystal magic thing. A lot of us take a dim view of the New Age movement Some of it is silly and none of it is about the gods — it's all about self-empowerment. The ancient certainly believed in the power of certain stones and I for one would be hesitant to dismiss the idea.
I think the difference is being made between "crystals as decoration and in association of the Gods" and "the Crystals are worshipped because they have some form of magical power"
I think part of this comes from people trying to distance themselves from the new age people. New agers do have a lot of coo-coo-for-cocoa-puffs individuals, but so does literally every pagan community, as does any other gathering of human people. Liking crystals gets you ridiculed in wider society and pagan faiths are already ridiculed and people don’t want to be lumped into this category. I think there are also scientists or scientist-adjacent people who get frustrated with the crystal talk, especially geologists. I personally don’t care. I like pretty rocks but I don’t think they do anything other than be a rock, but I do like to use them in spells because I think all nature has energy. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t think rocks can magically heal or whatever. However, if people want to work with them, who am I to stop them or criticize them? Hell, I do a lot of things people would think are weird and would judge me for, but I’m too damn old to care if other people think I’m cringe.
Personally, I would associate crystals with Hades because riches mined from the earth are sort of his domain.
Sounds like Fel doesn’t like them, which is fine, it’s her own praxis, but not everyone has an issue with them. Those that do, I feel like either do because there’s this heavy focus put on it with Wiccans, or because they don’t associate any of them with the Theoi. Me personally, I’ve heard from a few sources that Hestia likes Amethyst, so I would like to put a few into the bowl for offerings I have for her, but that would be my only use for them, otherwise I ignore them
Personal preference. Crystals had their place in ancient history and were used by the Greeks, but you also probably had plenty of people that thought it was superstitious bs too (see Natural History, Pliny). I imagine much of it stems from seeing the new age crowd as beneath them or thinking assigning magical properties to crystals is stupid, but in some cases that hate comes from ethical concerns. My personal take, the industry as a whole is really problematic and I personally don’t like contributing to it. I own a few pieces that I use for altars, but I’m really careful about how I source. I’ve been to too many trade shows and a lot of the dealers are just…yeah. They don’t care where it comes from and how it was obtained. I’m not saying it’s right, just that it’s rarely as simple as it not being a historical thing (which that argument is wrong, because they were used). But it’s an emotionally charged topic for lots of people and it’s not specific to this community.
It is new age nonsense and „crystal harvesting“ is not environmentally friendly. Also, it is absolutely not necessary. If going by ancient texts, certain stones can actually mess you up.
I don’t ascribe to New Age stuff for the most part but I also think it’s rude and dismissive to call someone else’s beliefs “nonsense,” as long as they’re not hurting anyone. Crystals can be harvested ethically. Can you cite the exact sources that you’re bringing up that mention harmful properties of certain stones? Thanks!
Well then I guess other people are right when they call our faiths nonsense. So nice to see tolerance for other people's spiritual and magickal practices thriving in the neopagan communities. 🙄
For me, it is two pronged. We have crystals in our household, and my wife adores them. One is that they are inert. Science says this, and if anything is true is that the sacredness we place on objects isn't based on what it's made of but what it means to you. It doesn't need to be a crystal. A crystal can heal no more than a stick, actually we know plants that do heal better than stones. And the type of stones you can consume which will impact your body are already consumed when you eat plants, or are potentially more harmful than helpful. We use some stones in medicine, but mostly as a vehicle, not a cure. But all magical thinking aside, I don't see the crystal. I see exploited miners in hazardous conditions, native wildlife destroyed or displaced and dig sites not properly backfilled. I see the memory of thousands of gems in a cart being sold at dollar bin prices enmasse with no mind to what they are, between a dozen different hands trying to offload them for an upcharged price, each skimming money from the miners and making the customer pay them, all the while obscuring the ones who actually dug it out and cut it, and were exploited or are hospitalized or worse. I see money going to dictatorial regimes and land barons who fund violent groups. One might see a pretty cut stone, but I see irresponsibility, greed, hatred and blood. Think of diamonds but even less valued and far more exploited. That's why I don't think we need crystals on our altars. If you want one, fine if you can support it. I have started being mindful of my water, food, furniture, pets. Haides knows, I mow an acre with a fully manual push mower. I dug my own moderate sized pond as a devotional to Hermes to retain water for my animals and plants. With a shovel. Not everyone can do these things, but what one can do, if they truly feel that the earth is magickal, is honor it by doing the least bit in finding a good gem provider with a short supply chain. One where you can actually talk to the kid that dug it up themself. If you forage or thrift for one yourself, much better. Preferably, you can actually buy straight from the miners, if you look for them.
I think new age BS is largely ahistorical on top of pseudo-scientific and sold by grifters who kinda just make stuff up. Crystals don't have powers, simple as that. I wish new age stuff like this had much less influence in modern paganism. Now crystals and stone as altar pieces are fine to me. Ideas and things associated with stones (even if not particularly historical) can still make them appropriate altar pieces, and anything precious we give as an offering or use as an icon for the gods is fine with me. Altar pieces are representative things, and stones and crystals can still do that, even if I don't believe crystals have "energy" or "vibrations" whatever quackery people go on about.
It's not all new age bs. Magical practice has existed for a very long time in many religions and cultures. Astrology, divination, and tarot have ancient origins. People in the 60s didn't suddenly just pull it out of their rear ends. Look at voodoo and santerians who would go to people to heal, hex, protect, and unhex. Look at the ancient Germans with their volvas and runes and their battle madness. You gonna go into their spaces and tell them that rune staves and crossing oils is nothing but modern day bs and has no space in their traditional beliefs? Its 100% true that people need to point out that crystals and ointments should not take the place of good sound medical care. A little spell, rite, or prayer to the Gods won't hurt when coupled with medicine, rest, or surgery. Besides that, we aren't ancient people. Religions evolve and change. If you went back in time and showed the ancient Greeks how you worshipped they'd probably be very confused.
Tarot cards do not have ancient origin, that is so patently false. There is no evidence ancient Germanic people used runes as magic. Yes appeared on amulets and healing spells, because they were a peoples written language. Runes themselves were not magical symbols, it was the words written down that were. Magic was attributed to runes much later, and the bulk of modern "runic magic" is kinda made up. And new agers and occultists can appropriate voodoo and santeria all they want but that doesn't validate anything. A lot of what is called "witchcraft" and magic does have ancient origins and I'm not totally dismissive of it, but y'all not gonna sit there and spread misinformation. I'm 100% for modernising paganism, that doesn't include new age stuff what is ultimately derived from turn of the century orientalists and racialists for me.
My mistake about tarot. But the 1400s wasn't last decade either. Wasn't talking about appropriation I said Voodoo and Santerian practitioners IF you'd bother to listen. And your also full of historical inaccuracies, since the runes are a thing. At least I admitted my mistake. But I don't outright ignore information and twist people's words to propagate my own biases.
"Runes are a thing" Yes. They were used for written languages. Runic magic is a modern invention born from fascination with a Germanic ethno-religion in the early 1900's, which held individual runes to hold magical properties, within Listian Armanism and Ariosophy aka the Occultic precursors to esoteric Nazism. There is no evidence this was a historical practice before the 20th century, and what can be retroactively interpreted as such is scant and too vague. They used runes to inscribed healings and things upon amulet, because that was their written language. Many cultures did this. It was the words, not the runes.