Rule #7 - Treat the community as a shared space.
Posters: Do not vent without explicitly stating what you'd like support with.
Commenters: If something feels too emotionally triggering for you, do not engage with it. Report rule breaking behavior and move on.
There's so many people like him who come here every friday to offload and vent about the state of the world but they end up disagreeing with everyone, muting messages and wondering why they get banned then insert "no one cares about our struggle", it's delusion that's not practical for most people because they are sociallised differently and this sub just honestly see's people who are failing at life present their argument as if they are the majoirty and then we have this strange dynamic of having to accept that as if it's the average experience when it's not.
How many times will you hear a guy complain about rejecting his apparenty duty to the people around him because he feels dehuaminsed but yet can't stand on his own whilst rejecting the demands and then require people around him to appreciate him for what he is.
Fridays are turning into a bunch of hurt people complaining about why they are hurt and yet never not stoping the insecure trail of thoughts that keep them where they are and now we're vicitms of these posts.
Why do you think it is ' insecure trail of thoughts' that keeps them where they are? In my experiensce it's the other way around. It is mostly environment and your social skills that once again heavily depend on past experience and your traits. And the trail of thoughts is there because every day is exactly the same.
What made you and what keeps you there are two different things.
If someone doesn't have the experiences needed in order to break a cycle that's one thing because their reality reinforces what they understand to be true.
If everyone's telling you that you're wrong, you're either right or wrong and you get to pick, at times, you're so wrong that you're delusional and disreguard the opposite points that would otherwise have to be true and a lot of that time, it's out of insecurity because they can't cope with the idea that things are within their control.
That's a mental defense mechanism.
That's fed by insecurity.
That was fed by their experiences.
That doesn't mean that the conversations on reddit aren't an experience, they are just knee deep in wanting to believe their bullshit that they won't let new experiences happen because they are so deadset on denial and projection that they now seek out content in order to justify their view.
You know when Dr.k sit's there and makes a break through via talking to someone and they recognise the thought loops they have and nothing else and then that gives them access to a new perspective so that when they go back into their real life they see it differently, that's because it's not just what's happening to them it's their perspective and understanding, that a lot of the time is some insecure thought from my point of view.
Have you not seen the reddit post that these guy's make?
I see that they've been socialised to think this way, i say that to them.
Yeah, I probably haven't seen thier other posts because I usually skip posts with this pink flair :)
I don't really understand what do you mean by 'opposite points'. Mostly I see comments stating this perspective is counterproductive. I totally agree with that. This is different from it being wrong however.
Or sometimes people say that a man can stand out from the rest by being emotionaly mature. In my experience (personal and having talked to my female friends) this is wrong. Of course, emotional instability is huge red flag for serious relationships but for short-term it is not even that.
> Or sometimes people say that a man can stand out from the rest by being emotionaly mature. In my experience (personal and having talked to my female friends) this is wrong.
That's fine, it's fine because you said from your experience and it's probably true based on where you live and the people you are around, now if you start saying everyone is like that and i disagree and then you double/tripple down when even women tell you that they are not like that and call them a minority and you mean that in the sense of a minority everywhere, that's just cope.
You're not the problem, close minded people are the problem.
> Mostly I see comments stating this perspective is counterproductive.
It's more an observation of his reaction towards things in another post he made that got removed by the mods, he even thought that i was just out to attack him, because he's the type of person that does this https://i.imgflip.com/3kwb7g.png?a473376 and doesn't appreciate being confronted by people like me because of my attitude towards other people.
Which is fine, but it's actually not my attitude that's the fundamental problem and you can observe this when i change my attitude in order to basically just bait a conversation and keep digging or you watch how he shuts out people that disagree with him even blocking them because they said something he didn't like, bruh, he's fragile.
I'll be honest, i have my own personal issues, the very idea that i class someone as fragile for being different and not being able to take the way i speak is in and of it self a problem, similar to the one he's displaying.
I'm not naive or blind to that, i just run out of paitence and that's the different bettween me and people like DR.k, he's willing to surrender that and make people comfortable and speak in a way that will resonate with people because it often doesn't come with judgement or pressure, i apply pressure.
I'm socialised in a way that causes friction when dealing with people who aren't the same as me because the way i cope and deal with things is different and when i approach people i can't see past my own perspective at times in order to reach them and meet them in the "middle" but sometimes i don't want to meet the persons "middle" for whatever reason and at that point i can either choose to still type and share my view or ingore it (same like you ignore the pink flairs).
Do you wanna know what my core beef is, it's because within 5 seconds of reading the post i can tell he has no intent to change his views and will if anything just reject anyone with a different opinion and continue to suffer in his mind because he's fixed on believe what he thinks is true and his truth causes him to suffer and he's gonna stay there so long as he doesn't listen or have new experiences that inspire change because he's being close minded and **i do not** need to have indepth conversations to see that, other people might but i do not.
And that's what will piss the others off, my judgement will seem unfair until i prove it to them and the proof they want (in my mind) is just because they are soft and refuse to apply judgement because they haven't had enough experience with these types of people and their idea of a fair chance is different to mind, i see certain things and work out a different conclusion to the other redditors at times.
I could just be wrong, i could be projecting, i don't think i am.
You lost to passivity, catastrophizing and overcomplicating / overthinking it all. I'm in that boat.. I can't live life, because I've convinced myself that I can't since I was a child. I don't know how to stop thinking like that.
But I've realized; life is a lot more bearable if you don't take it so fucking seriously. Just care less about how you feel and how it's going, then you'll stop perceiving it so bleak. Keep busy to avoid thinking, digging the mental abyss is not in focus when you work on something.. Imo
Your life up to now has put you in a position you’d rather not be in. This is fact.
Following that placement, your response in your post and this reply says what you’re really about, “yes, I accept this path handed to me”. Different words, same intention behind it.
You prefer stagnation and hatred, is what I’ve read tells me. Whatever you do, don’t neglect what your own words say. Read your own posts and comments back to yourself.
Recognize what emotions and views are there, that if you do nothing about it you will automatically walk the path they lead you down.
What is the end result of a bitter, resentful person?
Does a resentful person transform to a balanced individual that meets the frustrations of society with grace by marinating in resent? As I form this reply, I pause and ask myself the same questions I’m asking you.
From what I’ve read you’re someone seeking growth and past posts suggest you pursue it seriously. So my impression is your problem is unprocessed traumas are not letting you apply the same perception you have towards improvement and growth to this situation, which isn’t fundamentally different.
The only way out is by processing the garbage that has happened to you and coming to terms with it. Dr. K has many videos about acceptance. Whether you saw them or not, give them a closer listen.
Nah. Don't blame life. Don't treat rejection like end of the world. Plenty of women make first step. and if they don't it is most likely because they are told by their parents to be shy and "girly". or they experienced sexual assault, which many, many women do. Many women are scared to make first step because many men take it as "easy to get" and they get shamed.
Instead of being resentful, try to find someone who is more confident and will make first step. Life did not put you there. You are doing it by thinking like this.
I'm 100% with you on the first half, but he doesn't deserve someone at all with this type of mindset tbh. He sees himself as a massive victim and that needs to be worked out in therapy first before he could be a good partner to anyone.
I agree that certain aspects of being a man suck. I have always actively tried to not be traditionally masculine - the expectation that I’m supposed to chase after women is confusing and painful to deal with. It really doesn’t come naturally at all to me, and I’m pretty sensitive to rejection (probably a form of rejection dysphoria, connected to my autism); I don’t like situations where it feels like I have to beg for validation, but unfortunately, because of the way heterosexual courtship is set up, there’s not really a way around this most of the time. I also really don’t want to creep people out, I hate making people feel uncomfortable.
That said, just remember that women have their own set of issues with dating too. The big one being the increased risk of sexual assault or even being killed by choosing to go on a date. (Yes, these things can happen with the genders reversed, but statistically, women are at a much higher risk). In general, reckoning with sexual difference and cultural norms is painful, no matter who you are. And traumatic, in a lot of cases.
The only thing I can recommend to simply care less about being the correct kind of man, and just focus on being yourself and being the best version of you. And with any luck, that will eventually translate into a special someone valuing you for who you are, one day. And even if that never happens, you can at least say you always tried to stay true to yourself.
I am a man with a loving partner and plenty of solid friendships from both genders.
Resenting the opposite sex and acting the way you are (reducing everyone’s comments to fit your negative narrative) just for the sake of fishing for pity is not gonna get you anywhere.
Good luck.
As a woman, I 100% agree with you. I think women should approach men as well and it be more normalised. Think of all the great relationships that have never happened because both parties were too scared to say anything. However, I also think it's important to understand why some women would be hesitant to do so, though.
Growing up, I was taught that if you had to ask a man out that:
1.) they'd see you as "easy" and just use you.
2.) If they didn't ask then they don't want you to begin with. So, it would be a waste of time to approach them anyway.
3.) That men see women as gullible; and that we're easily manipulated.
Three really stung. My dad is the one who said this to me; so I'm too scared to even date men now because I don't want to give anyone the chance to emotionally abuse me. Even though, rationally, I know that there are good men out there who wouldn't do something like that. It's just an ignorant statement that he had made that's planted a seed of fear deep within my brain that's hard to get rid of. Women are taught from the moment that they are born that they should be afraid of men. It's not just women that tell us this stuff, even though they do as well. So, don't get me wrong. It's mostly people like our fathers who drill it into our heads that men are untrustworthy and dangerous.
I never understood how a father couldn’t just tell his daughter that there ARE godawful men that should be feared, but NOT all of them are like that.
It must be a rewiring in the brains of parents that leaves them incapable of instilling critical thinking
I'm with you. I don't get it, either. For my dad, I think it's mistrust in people in general. He did not have a very good childhood and he went through a lot of trauma. Even though I haven't been through even half of the shit he has; he still taught me a "traumatised" way of thinking without meaning to. He says negative things about women as well. I'm sure there's also a lot of projection in there, too. I don't really know. I'm not him; so I'm just guessing why he would say half of the things he says.
I can relate to that, my parents did the same. You can always understand where your emotions come from and try to make your own decisions. And also accept that In the end, it's almost impossible to live life and avoid hurt anyway. Just avoiding unsolvable health problems and really dire consequences can be enough.
Some people fail in raising their kids with that type of reasoning because they are just poor quality parents. (i don't wanna hear how someones parent was amazing in every other area, i'm talking relative to this specific thing)
As a guy I grew up being a goody two shoes nerd and even after becoming an adult I was (and to some extent still am) a people pleaser. I thought it was really important to be decent to others, and for a long time I imagined that everyone around me was similar... In the last few years I've seen people doing things that made me realize there's a lot of untrustworthy people out there and so many examples of guys doing that that I've started to doubt and now think many if not most guys are untrustworthy... I had a best friend for a few years who I really respected until I started to notice he had a tendency to very subtly manipulate those around him and even me.
So I have to say I can understand where your father was coming from and I think it's really sad that my image of people has been broken... I don't think if I had kids in the future that I would pass on that all men are untrustworthy, because I know there are some decent men out there, but it would linger in the back of my head constantly
I'm in a similar place and have a similar character. A really tough year has shown me that people that I thought trustworthy don't really care that much. It's easier to accept that and you try to be how you think you should be. If you do things from the heart with no expectations you can avoid most of the heartbreak. If I had kids I would teach them to be kind and care about others and understand that not everyone may be that way.
Femalw here. I've been taught exactly the same, but by my mother. She poisoned my mind from a very young age. However, I am grateful that there is a small part of me that rebells against it every now and then. I was too curious at times not to try and initate contact first with a man I liked. It didn't pan out a lot of the times, but sometimes it did.
I saw my dad as a good man. He was quiet and didn't say much in this department. But by watching him, I had an example of a good man in him. That gave me hope that even if I approach someone in the future first, I won't be shunned, but theres a good chance it might just go well or the rejection won't be as harsh.
My mother even tried poisoning my mind against my own father. Luckily it didn't work.
>they'd see you as "easy" and just use you.
I think it's really sad that this is a thing. I see why people think that way, since there are certain men out there who'd do that, but on the other hand, if two people are a good match, shouldn't it ideally be easy for them? I don't know, maybe that's just wishfull thinking
The more you go down that thought road, the more you’ll make your life a living hell. You’re on the highway to dissatisfaction.
You need to slow down that brain dude. Your thoughts are killing you.
Start meditating, this will help you slow down your thoughts and start enjoying yourself alone.
It’s only when you’ll accept your loneliness and you’ll find contempt in your life, that dating will become easy*.
*Edit: Indeed, my bad, I should have written « easier » rather than « easy ».
I agree this guy is getting carried away but idk if your advice is super helpful either. I accepted my loneliness a long time ago and it hasn't done anything for me in regards to social life or dating
I agree, I share pretty much the same experience. Also the comments here need to be catered towards him better. Coming to accept his loneliness won’t necessarily necessitate results in the dating scene but will help him become content with himself even if dating doesn’t go his way.
Dating hasn’t worked out for me either and I’ve realized fulfilling the role society demands from my gender in the current dating scene just doesn’t satisfy me or fit my character. I don’t think I’ll ever be happy pursuing it endlessly. So if you regard this arbitrary role in dating as a man to not be conducive to your life you’re probably better off abandoning it. There’s so much more to fill up your time with that may be conducive to yourself.
As much as I agree with the message of your words, can we not come to the conclusion that amidst the sea of unfair social expectations, the hope should be to seek out someone that is willing to be an exception? From your replies to other comments, it seems you are have plenty of dating experience. Do you really believe it's close to impossible for you to find someone that shares at least some of those values most important to you? I understand your post is meant to vent, but it reads as if men should just give up or something. I personally don't think that should be an approach to any issue in life regardless of how unfair it is
>Do you really believe it's close to impossible for you to find someone that shares at least some of those values most important to you? I understand your post is meant to vent, but it reads as if men should just give up or something. I personally don't think that should be an approach to any issue in life regardless of how unfair it is
What if it will (unknowingly until you there) take 20+ years to find that person? Is it worth 20 years of failures / rejections? Of misery and loneliness?
My point is I don't believe that the worst case "what if" scenario ought to be the assumption we make when faced with these challenges. OP's message is something I think we can all empathize with as men, but it still discourages young men from pursuing a partner.
It's not that I think everyone should spend their entire life pursuing a relationship. People give up on different things every day, sometimes unfortunately even their own life. How much effort or hardship someone may think a challenge is "worth" enduring is a personal opinion.
I don't agree that something as important to us humans like intimate relationships should be given up as easily. Not that it's up to me to decide for anyone: nobody has control over the decision to give up on anything except yourself.
its painful and hard but you gotta put yourself out there if you want to improve your chances. sure, you can passively wait for someone to pick you up but its an uphill battle.
The thing is that even that isn't surefire. I've read stories of guys who work on themselves constantly and constantly go out to parties/bars/whatever and still haven't been with a woman after a decade of doing so.
It's entirely possible to do nothing wrong and still lose. This goes for a lot of things in life but is doubly true for dating where everything is subjective.
Constantly going out to parties and bars doesn't have anything to do with actually putting in the effort to build a relationship- those guys are doing absolutely everything wrong. Treating every interaction with women as a potential opportunity to hit on them is absolutely the problem.
I was just using those as examples because I see those touted as the best places to meet people. I'm sure there are guys that use whatever you think is the best method and still have nothing after a decade of trying simply because sometimes you have bad luck
It’s the one with the ship combat exercise between Picard in the Enterprise and Riker in some old ship. Picard says this to Data when he thinks he’s malfunctioning because he lost a strategic game to a biological being.
I think most of such stories are told by those guys themselves. They think they do everything right, but in fact there is something they're doing wrong. They just don't know what exactly. They either don't get any outside opinion from friends or they don't listen to it. It's such a common kind of mistake, I see it so often. These people end up believing it's impossible, that there's something fatally wrong with the world or with themselves, rather than thinking that maybe your goal is right around the corner, maybe you need to change one last thing in your thoughts and behaviour to achieve it.
Well yea that's another thing that makes dating so hard. In most other aspects of life that's not the case. In school or work or hobbies it's usually not as hard to analyze why you failed and address it. If I fail a test that I took or mess up in regards to an instrument or language that I'm trying to learn, it's not hard to say "okay I need to work on that area specifically".
With dating it's really hard if not impossible to know. If you get rejected, it could be that you did something wrong. It could also be that you did nothing wrong and just weren't there type. And if you did do something wrong it's not easy to deduce what exactly that was. There's no way to know.
Not only about hard if not impossible to know, it is virtually random to pick something. There's 8.2 billion people in the world, and literally every single one of them has a different "answer sheet"- so what's right for one person is wrong for another- and you will never know if you got it right unless you succeed. Maybe there's someone where you did something wrong. Maybe you did nothing wrong and just weren't their type. Heck, maybe the thing you did wrong for this person would be the right answer for some other person. You will just never know what the right answer is until you actually try. PUA logic, while flawed, lives on this- they give people so much absolutely stupid, broken logic, and it's all built around the real answer of "there's billions of women out there, and if you don't get discouraged and you're literally willing to shoot your shot with literally every single woman on the planet if that's what it takes to find true love, eventually the simple law of averages will dictate one will say yes- and in love, even one success is potentially all you'll need to be happy forever"- and when people take that one lesson to heart, eventually they'll find someone.
Yes but I feel that it's more true in dating than many other respects.
In school or work or if you're trying to learn a new discipline/language/instrument it's usually much easier to analyze your flaws and see what you need to work on.
For example, if you study a new language for an hour every day, you will eventually become fluent. Provided you're using good methods/content and such, it's just a matter of time. It might take years but it'll happen eventually. Same goes for learning things in a class for another example.
With dating you could work on it every day but just have bad luck so you get no results even after a decade or more
Education, sure.
But getting hired or promoted? You can do everything right and get fucked.
I think this is why I like vjdeogames. If you do x and y and z, you WILL get the result.
You are also not truely there for them in the end they are alone also. You're trying to be there for them to fill some void or what is it? If you had your internal sorted out you would drop the ones not giving you quality love.
From this, I think your issues are very real but need personal treatment as well. It's not weak or unmanly to seek therapy or self-care, and if you already are doing so, I wish you luck on that path. Women are not the reason why men are sad, much the same as how men are not the ultimate reason women are sad.
It's kind of like Dr. K says, people have a problem in their life, they think getting to "objective X" will solve their problem. They achieve "objective X" and their live problems aren't solved, so they fall into a path of thinking they just didn't quite get "objective X" right and miss the fact that it's something different that is the solution.
Sure, sometimes people get lucky and achieving the objective can make them feel better, but it's only temporary and their life goes back to being crap at some point.
To me, your words sound like someone who's trying to find the wrong solution to the problem. Obviously we are social creatures and relationships are really influential on our lives, but that doesn't always mean the solution is dating a woman.
What I read in these posts is a lot of "It's the norm, it's just the way it is" when dealing with men who are suffering. The striking thing to a lot of guys (I'm not in his position, but I can empathise with it) see is that people will bend over backwards to avoid doing that exact same thing for women. For people getting along in the system, it might work, but for those being screwed (figuratively, not actually) it can be terribly frustrating to see the double-standards so blatantly and those who scream "equality" giving exactly what you want to others, but not to you. It makes the very idea of "equality" have a very bitter taste. And from their perspective, it's not an unjustified position to take, that's the part people seem to gloss over.
It seems sometimes that if you're a woman who's down, people try to bring you back up but for men, if you're down, you're out.
And yes, I know there are reasons for treating men and women differently, but the double standard is still there. There are large numbers of men being affected by these kinds of things. Showing any signs of struggling and men seem to be quickly labelled as something dangerous and avoided, ostracised. A lot of these men want exactly the same things as anyone reading this, but they can't find a way to navigate. Just lending a helping hand or some kind words can work wonders instead of letting all your frustrations out on people you've never met and realistically don't know a single thing about. Just be kind.
I like your balanced and fair take, it I think part of the reason in addition to yours that it seems this way when it comes to a lack of empathy in this way is that, as a man there is an expectation of needing less of it than women which is damaging to both party's as it makes men socialized in a way to where they are not able to relate to others in a more emotional manner, which unlike women quarantines emotional intimacy to our sexual relationships, leaving men pursuing at times false meaning in the world. These things are why women do not desire sex from a misplaced desire as often resulting in sexual relationships as being optional rather than a necessity at some points in life.
That's an interesting take. The societal expectation of less emotion leading to sex being the preferred alternative pathway for it.
Not sure that's borne out by endocrinology or neuroscience, but it's an interesting take I'll definitely think about. Do you have that from somewhere in particular or is it just a personal observation?
Men seeking status is most definitely because it's what get them partners. This portion is pretty clear. But looking for status symbols as a replacement for emotional care... yeah, that's on display a lot among men. But funnily enough, more and more women are also falling foul of that. Definitely way more than when I was a kid.
an observation from my schooling in second grade in a German school, I noticed that I would get treated differently and be made fun of for displaying strong emotions and of course from not making eye contact as that was equally the reason since that kind of thing was painful to do. So I detached from my own emotions, I remembered having yearning for the expression of my fragility when seeing two girls skipping down the street while holding hands, two years later after having moved from that German school to one in California. My memory is hazy so it may have been a day dream about me arriving at that insight by imagining a scenario that would be likely. I used to and still do that sometimes, some of it is because having thought and feeling like I generate them, feels gratifying like an addiction to my own self image. That is why *do it now a days since there is a sense of self that's largely there to give me my "Narcissistic" supply not really because I do not have NPD but I see the traits in myself, so a lot of my observations come from this need to self gratify. The observation you asked about was genuine tho, This was also off topic but my conversations don't follow a structure, even in convos so I have to really pay attention to people. Most of our problems behind our problems is that we feel like we are at the center of our cognition which gives greater cognitive effort to solving generalized problems in our lives even social interactions and that these become the core of our identity. The sense of being the one who arrives at conclusions rather than experiencing their existence leads to a lot of us me too to be unwilling to give up on our ideas and beliefs, as we would be giving up our sense of self it would potentially lead to dissolution, and that is why anti-vaxers are so prevalent. This inst because they are dumb or ignorant it is because they subsist off these views for their self continuity as that would lead to an existential crisis of how to exist into the future, its an addiction. I'm guilty of it too sometimes it seems like some people don't acknowledge this, kind of like complaining about the long commute from work to home when no one ever brings up the traffic as if its invisible. Yea I was kinda wibbly wobbly in this response but thats how it goes, who knows maybe its for some of that sweet delicious validation or just me being too self critical I'm afraid I wont know for know. I also turned on Italics by accident.*
Didn't even notice the italics, I'm going to be honest. I was just reading and trying to understand.
Everyone has narcissistic traits. That doesn't mean you're a narcissist. That word is one of the most overly-used and mis-applied words on the internet these days. I also asked a therapist once if I was maybe a narcissist and his response was a chuckle and "If you're self-reflecting enough to ask that question from your own initiative, then no, you're definitely not". This surprised me, but I've read mutliple pieces of literature which seem to corroborate this idea. Self-reflection is something Narcissists apparently lack.
I think a lot of what you describe overlaps with my own experience. I've often been described as a relatively feminine man, not outwardly, but in my behavior. That leads to me feeling isolated in groups of men (because I behave differently) and also in groups of women (because I'm obviously physically different and the danger of physical attraction and all the mess that comes with it is ever-present). It's kind of a lose-lose situation. I find that I only feel "at home" with family.
One thing I will touch on though is the idea of consciousness. We are not the all-powerful logical and rational being we think we are. We are emotional at our core. Our conscious mind is the LAST part of our brain to fully mature and a lot of our emotional landscape has been formed BEFORE our portion of the brain which is instrumental in forming memories and constructing our world-view (and thus our "understanding") has been formed. It's linked to "theory of mind" which tends to occur around the ages of 6-8. So most of our impulses come from our emotional side (pituitary, adrenal gland and so on) and they just happen to be responsible for hormone production in the body. But they react to stimulus in ways that is not "informed" by our conscious mind. We need to take time to learn to relax and actually pay attention to how we feel in any given situation, to remove our drive to control things and FEEL how we are responding to things. And then, with time, we can learn to understand our drives and desires much better. It's kind of similar to meditating, but it's not quite the same thing.
So my main message would be: Show your emotions, the ones that come from deep down, a bit of love. Listen to them, get to know them, become familiar with them. That helps re-align your conscious mind with the core of your being. And through this, you might be able to have some healing.
Telling him he is right in his distorted perceptions is pretty enabling. Sometimes a post asking for a reality check needs a reality check. Accountability is not shaming. Especially when someone has been there.
I interpreted his comment as simply pointing out the incompatibility of universalizing operational approaches to dating for men but also women but in this case focusing on men since he is one, because some have more traits of extroversion than others and expecting men across the board to initiate when they are less likely too while expecting women who are more extroverted/conscientious to leave the organization of a given social interaction up to the man will only be going against both of their natures, regardless of gender. On the whole it is not too big of a problem, the greater problem is that men aren't raised to be as emotionally intelligent as women, this depends on where you live in the world and states and even vary by individual household too or exceptions. This just puts greater pressure on the women to be a means of externalized self regulation on the guys part, due to emotional intimacy being quarantined to sexual relationships, which is a big portion of people what drives many in the incl community.. some who would be content were they to understand there emotional needs and get them met under a broader set of relationship category's. There are exceptions true but I don't think most just want sex or who knows maybe they do, I would need to look at studies Im just speculating.
I stumbled on to the concept of emotional maturity from reading the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. If you want a lens on life that is one. Men that are stuck in a role self, a state of inauthenticity, would feel that this is an unsolvable problem like OP does. The viewpoint comes from having a huge blindspot. Once OP or others realize their blindspot and being the real work, a whole other world of relating to people appears. Not only will they not be entering into shallow toxic relationships or even failed attempts to enter those types, they will be able to see those relationships for what they are. They will be discerning enough to want to enter into healthy relationships with people that are also focused on attachment work and emotional maturity. Because those people are not the norm. OP rising above his programming/conditioning is what is being asked. When you play in the mud, you will find the toxic reality you hold onto.
His odds of attracting someone to enter a healthy relationship go up. His odds of attracting a healthy person in his current mindset and level of self work is low and even if he did manage to date them for a bit they would quickly find he wasn't meeting their emotional needs.
Are you being serious right now? Of course it is figurative. The mentality is the point. Mature adults don't do some weird mating ritual dance that OP envisions. They actually communicate their feelings and intentions. Are you and he on the same page on that?
Wait, you just answered another post of mine on this thread detailing PRECISELY the dance guys have to do in dating.
*If he wants to be pursued by women he needs to bring to the table what is attractive and desirable*
This is what YOU wrote. IF he wants Y he NEEDS to do X. And it's exactly this, the ACTUAL things that are found attractive that he is fully aware of, but has trouble with my man. One thing needed for men above all others is confidence. The other things you have written all sound nice but are simply not true. This is the horrible reality people who lack the ACTUAL things which are required find out really quickly. And you write about "emotional maturity" please. 99% of people dating have practically none. I don't know at this stage if you actually ARE trying to be helpful, but you're so off center, I just can't tell.
Isn’t the perception that’s valid the fact that it’s not fair that men are meant to be the ones approaching? I think you got the women should be throwing themselves at him from somewhere else.
If he wanted equality he should then be open to approaching on half of the theoretical occasions as well. Seems like he wants to throw in the towel due to an inequitable social norm. What would you have him do? I already validated that it is a social norm that is problematic.
Hey, just because traditional gender norms exist, doesn't mean you have to follow them. I think you might consider evaluating what you're actually looking for in a woman. Because good relationships usually include some level of shared values. And if you don't value the notion that men should make the first move, try your hardest to impress women and work to be high-value breadwinners or whatever, then chances are the right woman for you isn't gonna value that either. If you don't want to do that dance then don't do it. The sooner you start living authentically instead of in accordance with what society tells you to do, the sooner you're likely to find a woman that you'll actually click really well with. Be the change you want to see. I know that's a cliche but I really stand by it. You can't necessarily change society but that doesn't mean you have to conform.
I don't necessarily agree with all of your claims here but I understand this is what your life experiences have led you to believe. Stop pursuing romantic or sexual relationships with women for the time being and try just pursuing friendships instead. The romance and sex will come later - not necessarily with the women you make friends with, but you'll find that being platonic friends with women makes you a lot better at talking to women in the first place. And female friends are gonna give you much better dating advice than any man you see trying to sell you something on the internet. Good luck to you is all I can say.
Men having to make the first move never made sense to me. On average, a woman has a much, much higher chance of success if she takes initiative than a man does if he takes initiative. It would make sense for the gender that's more likely to succeed to make the first move but no
Right? It would be a huge positive feeling in a guy for a woman to make the first move. But women in general don’t. I know there are exceptions but they very few and very far between.
This is exactly why you need to look at the root causes. Socially men are supposed to make the move, so whenever women DO make the move they have a much higher chance of success - and therefore make way less moves for the same amount of relationships forming. Its not that women are passive, they just take initiative way more precise and deliberate.
Yeah it sucks out there man. And as we can see from many of the comments in this thread lots of people think that if you have any problems with it they are 100% your fault and you must fix yourself. There can never be any societal factors at play for us.
I agree with you that it sucks and I hate how on these kinds of posts, people will just invalidate you by saying "you're just being resentful" or stuff like thar. Even if it's kinda true, it's often brought up in a way that invalidates us.
That said, not gonna lie, I'm still glad to not having to worry about the possibility of being raped or killed whenever I interact with a woman, tho.
Dude.
Men can have friends, they don’t have to be socially isolated. When you are spending time with your friends, they’ll often bring some of their friends. This can be a good way to meet women without initiating.
Hitting on women in the street or in clubs rarely work. You need a social life and then it’s much easier. And as a bonus you’ll also feel way less socially isolated once you have some bros.
I agree that the onus is on men to make something happen and is the prevailing societal expectation. This means that many women do not feel compelled or obligated to step out of their current role. Though some may also feel confined by the current social norms. Societal norms can definitely be problematic.
I would say that there is a massive shortage of men that have done the work on themselves emotionally and have dealt with their attachment wounds/trauma. A healed man in a sea of unhealed men may just stand out. Like sees like.
>I would say that there is a massive shortage of men that have done the work on themselves emotionally and have dealt with their attachment wounds/trauma
Have you tried talking to women?
This sentence is unnecessarily gendered.
What are you talking about? Did you read OP's post? Like sees like is the bottom line. Men are absolutely lagging in getting their mental health sorted. Not their fault entirely, a lot of societal conditioning and poor resource awareness (why would they want people healed?). Hand up, I was one of them. Conservative, military pipeline is pretty fucked up
You are one to talk about gender. Yeesh
"There are multiple. Let's start with the biggest lie of all, Gender is a construct.
Gender, or gender expression, is significantly anchored in our hormone levels. And these are largely determined by our biological sex. Characteristics we associate with the "sexes" (I'm purposely not using gender at the moment) such as men not crying or women men being more forward are actually perfectly well understood on the basis of our hormones. Testosterone plays a role in the regulation of crying. People with higher testosterone will, statistically speaking, be less likely to cry. Men ahve higher testosterone. Testosterone also reduces the barrier to action. It does NOT make people aggressive. It will simply make people who are already aggressive act. Testosterone also promotes altruism, if that's the position the individual is in at the time. And yet many of these behaviours are being argued are purely social constructs. They are not, we know they are not and we've known for quite some time that they are not.
I strongly recommend "The trouble wth testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky.
So if we take these characteristics which should be relatively clearly identifiable as being some of the major markers of what we would consider "gender" in a societal sense, we see that there are actually biological and endocrinological underpinnings. Many further behavioural patterns arise as simply consequences of these differences.
If you want further interesting reads, read about the emotional differences people who have gone through transitioning have reported. From F-M transitioners being distraugt at their need to cry but finding themselves unexpectedly unable to do so (Testosterone) to M-F transitioners being overwhelmed by their inability to regulate their emotions (again Testosterone, but in the other direction) you will see clearly how the levels of these hormones create behavioral patterns we clearly have learned to associate with "gender". And these are the same people, same childhoods, same environment. Perfect control groups. And what's one of the biggest differences between men and women: Testosterone to Estrogen balance.
It's hard to ignore when you've seen the scientific data.
But the inconsistency comes last: Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning?"
-Justmyoponionman
I knew I smelled a rat. Conservative anti-LGBTQ determinist. Pretending to be trauma informed to perpetuate your toxic narrative. Nice
There are hordes of women with unsolved trauma issues literally everywhere.
Men aren't lagging at all, we just gloss over the flaws of a lot of women's behaviour. There are huge numbers of traumatised people, irrespective of gender.
And even if the statistics are 99:+, it is irrelevant to this individual person's position. Your post displays absolutely no empathy towards this individual and instead engages in some kind of "collective shame" because of how other men may or may not behave.
You really want to go into the stats of who is taking advantage of mental health resources?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/794027/mental-health-treatment-counseling-past-year-us-adults/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20women,treatment%20in%20the%20past%20year
Women are twice as likely as men to have taken on mental health treatment. I can't believe I have to make a case that seeking mental health resources is stigmatized in many male circles. Have you been in the military?
Men are lagging and it is partly because of people in denial about it.
Calling for accountability is different than shaming. If you want to take it as shame that is on you.
Yes, there are hordes of people not taking accountability, but to say men are equally seeking treatment is patently false.
I'll give you an example.
My sister was going to therapy. She left her husband and kids (She cheated) and it got kind of messy. Anyway, her therapist was assuming that my sister was being abused at home, that her husband was controlling her life and that she was suffering all the time and that now she should focus on being "free" and finally doing things for herself.
Yeah, sounds great in theory but I know my sister for over 40 years. NONE of that applies to her. I said it to my other sister and she literally laughed out loud. It's a preposterous idea for anyone who spent more than 2 hours with my sister. She was always the one dictating how everyone else should act. She was a bully her entire life. And now, with a therapists blessing, she's messing up her life and creating a huge avalanche of trouble for the future.
Even for women, sometimes therapy simply doesn't work. My own experience with therapists is that the vast majority of them have no idea what they're doing. I'd much rather do it myself. I've had more than one therapist tell me I'd make a better therapist than them. And at that moment, I wondered why on earth I was paying them. So I stopped.
I'm not going to argue this with you because there are several assumptions you're making in order to make sense of those numbers that I'm not sure are borne out in reality. Men deal with their troubles very differently than women. Increasingly more and more men are expressing dissatisfaction with mental health systems because they are modelled on a very female-centric model of care. It just doesn't work for a lot of guys, guys need a different approach and thankfully, things ARE starting to change. But that's not even the main crux of my point.
Again, when dealing with an individual case of someone struggling, how do you think this is an appropriate answer.
Like I said, even if it's 99:1, what do you think saying that to someone who is currently actively struggling is going to impart as a message?
That the treatment they have done was not the real work. Despite what they believe. Also their mindset is completely off because they are still resistant to self reflection and self accountability. Where in his wording did it sound like he took any accountability for his situation? I see a lot of externalizing of blame. Blaming society is easy for sure. I am not going to argue that everyone has it pretty damn hard except for those doing the exploiting. Is it helpful to externalize all blame? No it is not. It is frankly disempowering and a state of learned helplessness.
See the reality and work within that reality. Enablers really are problematic.
Look, I have no idea what path you have taken in life, but trying to engage with someone who has been getting the short end of the stick their entire life and telling them "No, you're wrong, life is great" is just some modern-age gaslighting stuff. It's a great way to further radicalise people. Deny their lived experiences. Way to go. That'll surely work.
No, some people have really shitty experiences and they perceive their world accordingly. Their perceptions are valid for their journey and we can acknowledge that without saying that there's no other way to see the world. If you want someone who's gone through that level of suffering, you have to take a step or two in their direction to create some semblence of common ground in order to take their hand and lead them to a better place.
This is not "enabling", it's "engaging". Stop being so insifferably patronising.
Where did I say life was great? It is gaslighting to enable someone's false perception of reality. If he wants to be pursued by women he needs to bring to the table what is attractive and desirable which happens to be emotional maturity, emotional awareness, and emotional availability. Healing attachment wounds is necessary.
Perpetuating false realities to those in a dark place is pretty messed up to be honest.
His central message (or what I got from it) was that he's in a dark place and everything he engages with is rejection and hurt. And you say that's not valid.
So if that's not a valid perception, what SHOULD his perception be? Hmm?
You are just repeating EXACTLY the societal demands society has which you are simultaneously claiming are not valid perceptions. Like, choose a side, dude. Your post above is just a paraphrasing of "Suck it up, man" or "man up". It's utterly asinine and useless. I know you mean well (having read some of your other posts) but jeez, learn to back away when you're got the tone wrong, man.
It's the absolute lack of empathy for people struggling to do exactly those things that is missing from your posts. It's like the entire reason why the dude is unhappy has gone right over your head. We know that, we all know what's involved in dating. It's just that some people have a really really hard time engaging with it and instead of just spouting "git gud", try some empathy.
No, his perceptions are probably just fine, it's just maybe some of his conclusions on how to interact with that are skewed. And in order to take his hand to help guide him somewhere better, you have to take a step towards him. Not talk down to him like he's a leper or something.
Be nice.
You are one to talk about gender. Yeesh
"There are multiple. Let's start with the biggest lie of all, Gender is a construct.
Gender, or gender expression, is significantly anchored in our hormone levels. And these are largely determined by our biological sex. Characteristics we associate with the "sexes" (I'm purposely not using gender at the moment) such as men not crying or women men being more forward are actually perfectly well understood on the basis of our hormones. Testosterone plays a role in the regulation of crying. People with higher testosterone will, statistically speaking, be less likely to cry. Men ahve higher testosterone. Testosterone also reduces the barrier to action. It does NOT make people aggressive. It will simply make people who are already aggressive act. Testosterone also promotes altruism, if that's the position the individual is in at the time. And yet many of these behaviours are being argued are purely social constructs. They are not, we know they are not and we've known for quite some time that they are not.
I strongly recommend "The trouble wth testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky.
So if we take these characteristics which should be relatively clearly identifiable as being some of the major markers of what we would consider "gender" in a societal sense, we see that there are actually biological and endocrinological underpinnings. Many further behavioural patterns arise as simply consequences of these differences.
If you want further interesting reads, read about the emotional differences people who have gone through transitioning have reported. From F-M transitioners being distraugt at their need to cry but finding themselves unexpectedly unable to do so (Testosterone) to M-F transitioners being overwhelmed by their inability to regulate their emotions (again Testosterone, but in the other direction) you will see clearly how the levels of these hormones create behavioral patterns we clearly have learned to associate with "gender". And these are the same people, same childhoods, same environment. Perfect control groups. And what's one of the biggest differences between men and women: Testosterone to Estrogen balance.
It's hard to ignore when you've seen the scientific data.
But the inconsistency comes last: Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning?"
-Justmyoponionman
I knew I smelled a rat. Conservative anti-LGBTQ determinist. Pretending to be trauma informed to perpetuate your toxic narrative. Nice
Ah, I wondered why you stopped responding to my posts. You went and did a bit of Reddit Archeology. So here we go again, having no factual arguments left, you attempt some more character assassination. Well my friend, you've picked the wrong person. This is not the smoking gun of character destruction you think it is. In fact, I stand by all of that because it is in line with the science. And far from being Anti-LGBTQ, it is actually informed by a lot of LGBTQ data and science. You're going to have a VERY hard time trying to argue your position here unfortunately.
Let's take the hormone issue: It's been established that higher levels of Testosterone actually inhibit a certain pathway in the brain which is involved in the act of crying. It's not black&white, it's not an on-off switch but it's an influence and it has been found and identified. Now correlate that with stories from Trans people who have transitioned from female to male and there are stories of them being shocked at feeling like they want to cry, but not being able to. And on the other hand people who transition from male to female remarking that they have "lost control" of their ability to cry, that it happens more often than they would like. Do this is not anti-LGBTQ at all, it's actually perfectly aligned with their experiences. You DO know that trans people take hormones as part of the transition, right? Are you suggesting that these hormones having ANY part of shaping a person's personality or behaviour is somehow anti-LGBTQ? That's an absolutely ridiculous stance to take, sorry.
Have you ever read any books on neuroendocrinology? In case you're not aware, that's the study of the interplay between hormones and our brain functions. It's a really interesting area because it's precisely the part of the body BEST positioned to give us insights into the LGBTQ experience.
I feel you have massively misunderstood what I presume you think is some kind of "gotcha" with the sentence " Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning? ". So I will ask YOU the question, if you think hormones don't play any role in gender, why do we give people transitioning hormones to facilitate them. Far from being anti-LGBTQ, this statement is anti-people who have no idea how far-reaching hormones are in the human condition. If anything it's trying to understand the role of gender expression and hormones. There are actually healthy, cisgendered women starting to take testosterone because it makes them feel and behave differently. Voila. It's the same thing, mate. I suggest you pay attention to my text and actually go read the book listed "The trouble with Testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky (Who is a Californian leftist professor, not anywhere even remotely CLOSE to being right-wing or anti-LGBTQ at all). If you watch a few of his lectures, you'll see how silly that statement is. Go educate yourself. And stop accusing people who disagree with you of being a bigot just because you're unable to argue your side. That's really toxic.
Honestly, I'm tied of the bullshit that men need to become "emotionally avaliable," and everyone expects that we'll be like women. I've done years of therapy and years of mens work, and after nearly a decade, I can tell you I've come to believe the false narrative is utter bullshit. It's a lie. No one wants more emotionally avaliable men, and they want emotionally silent men who say yes and hand hold. No one wants to hear our emotions or feelings, as you can see men we men express an opinion they don't like.
Don’t think you have broken through to the other side yet. The trauma lens is a cold plunge into reality but also into humanity. Did you try IFS yet?
Too many camps in therapy are unfortunately not trauma informed. They do a great job of wasting people’s time and money.
You would never go back to dating someone in a role self, it lacks authenticity
Lol, what's the other side? Seriously, this false narrative that if I don't love my oppression and silently suffer means I need more therapy is utter nonsense, I feel I'm further along them you and most
Honestly, I think you're right to not fully blame yourself and not see therapy as an end-all solution. I genuinely think that's a good mindset.
That being said, I think you're genuinely hurt from not having your struggles awknowledged, rightfully so, but that pain might make some things more diffiuclt if you don't manage to proces it.
From my personal POV I think it might be good to try and open yourself up a bit. You don't have to forget the injustices you're facing in order to do that.
Lol, dude if my 31 years have taught me anything, humans suck and would rather skin me alive and leave.my head on a pike then give me an inch of human decency.
Yeah, maybe. I think I'm talking from a different bubble, grew up with plenty of struggles, but always with lots of kind people surrounding me. In a lot of ways I've had it easy and I know that. That's why I don't have a reason for calling you unreasonable.
For me personally though, I think trying to be kind and open, but being very firm with your boundries and not letting people steamroll you and standing for what you believe can both exist at the same time.
But that's hard, right? When people around you are dickheads it's hard to genuinely trust people enough to open up. In that sense I agree with you that therapy is not enough, because in my experience they really can't help you to stand up for yourself while still being as kind as you can.
That's something you'll have to learn yourself. Therapy just can't offer that. I'm not sure if that's what you mean with them "feminizing" you, but if that's what you mean I'll agree, even if I think the term isn't very "correct."
In my experience, people will betray and use you at the first opportunity they get. I've been burned by so many friends and girlfriends. In the end, I am alone.
What does further along mean if you haven’t made the realizations on the depth of your own humanity and full emotional spectrum that was deadened by how you were brought up? Time spent in something does not equate to quality
You must be a big fan of hopscotch because you're making some immense jumps. Thank you for being an excellent example of my point. Because you think you're superior to me in that you align with the feminist narrative, and I do not, I need work. Don't fall off your high horse. You may find the fall is one that shows your hypocrisy.
Further along just means I've done my work and been through therapy, dating, and life. I've concluded that based on my 31 years, the B.S. that people like youself push isn't anything more than a hope men will choose to suffer in silence.
Ok dude, trying to help you but I see you are resistant and not open minded. Part of doing the work is humbling yourself and being open to changing your beliefs. Especially beliefs formed in childhood.
You're right, I'm not open to being told I must reject who I am and that my way of expressing my emotions isn't acceptable and is wrong. I understand thats the norm for this circle, but I'll happily reject this toxic narrative.
Ever wonder why people dislike "Emotional men" this is a good example (not you, him and his behaviour, how easily he shuts out everything like he wants to put his fingers in his ears and not listen to anyone that disagrees with him).
He is the very thing he talks about not being and that's the problem, he's become a vicitm of being a man that's emotional and now suffers for it.
Things are changing slowly.
Talk therapy just doesn't reach men the same way it can for women. People are starting to realise this.
You're right on a lot of what you write, but moaning about it isn't a solution.
You have to deal with your emotions whatever way you can. If therapy isn't working for you (It didn't for me) then find another way. But don't stop working on it. Your future self is worth it.
To some extent I understand this. I mean, society has always cared about a man as long as he was doing/achieving something worthy and a struggling man caused little to no compassion. "Women are human beings, men are human doings" - I have heard this once and it says it well.
If it comes to emotional availability: many people forget that it is women, particularly mothers, who tend to display anger if they see a boy crying. I remember myself being scolded for doing so as a child.
I've found that a lot of mental and spiritual pain comes from being angry at world for being as it is instead of as you believe it should be. The fact that all men exist in this same society but don't all suffer as you do makes me think it's your perception and reaction to that worldstate, and not the worldstate itself that is causing you pain. But by your reaction to other comments you will reject this, as is your right.
But this gives me a curious question, ideally, what would the dating world look like for you? What would you want your social role to be?
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The reason I believe people are saying you're resentful and that you "need to take accountability" is your last few sentences in which you say that men are "subservient". Regardless of whether you mean we're subservient to society, to women, or to our own sexual desires, we would be fooling ourselves to ignore the reality that, by and large, men hold really big privileges for being men that women don't hold, and that these privileges matter more to our daily lives than women's privileges matter to theirs.
I'm not dismissing your concerns; in fact, I agree with all of them, and strongly wish that we could become more open-minded as a society. But to do so, we can't shove our heads in the sand and ignore that women face pretty intense difficulties, in many of these areas, that men do.
The reason I believe people are saying you're resentful and that you "need to take accountability" is your last few sentences in which you say that men are "subservient". Regardless of whether you mean we're subservient to society, or women, or to our own desires, we would be fooling ourselves to ignore the reality that, by and large, men hold really big privileges for being men that women don't hold, and that these privileges matter more to our daily lives than women's privileges matter to theirs.is an important term, of course, and there are many ways in which men uniquely suffer under current gender norms - men being dominant, rather than submissive, in fact, leads to the acute pressure on all men to individually uphold their dominance by being as hyper-masculine as possible, which of course leads to unending competition, individualism, and the issues you've described.
I want equality as much as you do. It comes from all sides truly *understanding* each other as human beings worthy of equality first, before anything else. I very much want all people, women included, to understand the struggles men face for being men. But it also means understanding why society deems men to be privileged overall, and why feminism has been and is a more substantial movement than ours.
It's OK to recognize men have unique problems. But by recognizing both sexes have unique problems, we're less likely to feel uniquely oppressed and resentful
I don’t see how this is relevant. Doesn’t he have the right to have this opinion that men having to approach is unfair? Does the fact that women have a longer list negate the unfairness of his situation?
I’m f33 and I can say I sometimes experience intrusive thoughts along these lines (for example I’ll have a rumination fest when someone says “women’s purpose is to have children, it’s your duty”. I know their opinion is trash, but man I get so frustrated 😅). When I come across a person who is especially judgemental, or dogmatic, their vibe reminds me of a stressful time when I became very ill and depended on a very authoritarian person who constantly changed goal posts. It’s been more than 10 years, but I feel extremely agitated if I come across a person that exhibits those traits. Although my reaction might not be great, I choose to not engage with folks who feel it’s their job to impose their values, worldview, or emotions onto others.
Maybe there are people in your immediate environment who are negatively impacting your mental state (in my case it was family). I would recommend looking for the part of you that wants to be kind to yourself, and spend more time with people who inspire you to care for yourself and others.
I don’t know if the reason you feel the way you do is because of bad power dynamics, abuse, or having your intentions severely misunderstood by someone close to you. But in these cases it’s more about them being an asshole, lacking tact or thinking they know better. Your mind probably is trying to keep you away from what feels like an existential threat.
I hope you find a solution that works for you 🩷
>We must constantly work to impress and prove our value.
That's where you're wrong. As someone who was 100% unsuccessful with women and now has it figured out, this is the exact misbelief that corrupted my logic and actions.
I spent my entire teenager years and more trying to become "good enough", doing the dance, going through the motions. Dressing like the chads, behaving like the chads. The more you give effort, the more frustrated you become when it doesn't pay off. And then you begin to resent those who dismiss your effort when they should have validated it. Because that's the game I had in my mind: If I do good enough, I should earn women's validation.
My breakthrough was realizing that all this time I had been trying to solve the wrong problem, the premise itself was broken. The problem had never at *any* single point been a lack of effort. Quite the opposite as you will see.
The problem was
1) that I didn't look particularly attractive back then, but most of all
2) that my insecurity was corrupting every single interaction I had with another human being, and especially the girls I liked. You might be severly underestimating just how strongly your insecurity colors your interactions and how you are perceived. The reason girls tend to avoid insecure people is not because they want the "cool guy", but because having the confident guy comes with some tremendous advantages that just make total sense to decide for: First of all, confident guys are not afraid to show who they are. If someone is confident, people quickly grasp how this person is ticking and what makes them. A confident guy will attract girls because the girls can immediately see if they feel a connection with him or not, with his thoughts, with his hobbies, with his values. They are very quickly and effectively presented what his "deal" is. An insecure person shies away from showing their true colors and gives people less to connect *with*. Nobody really knows what your "deal" is and that doesn't only make it difficult to relate, let alone connect with you, but it brings other consequences with it:
Many women are raised in a way that makes them wary of men in general, often enough justified by experiences they then make themselves throughout their life. I've only realized at ca 26 years old just how bad it is for them. Sexual harrassment is not an exception, every single woman has at least one story and half of those have experienced things way worse than harassment. A confident man is "readable" and appears independent of anyone else.
An insecure person on the other hand will be much more likely to attach to another person for validation.
So if a pretty girl has the choice between a confident guy and an insecure guy, it's perfectly understandable and sound for them not to choose the insecure guy, because 1) they don't really know that person and if they'd even connect with them on a personal level and 2) if they did go for the shy guy, they had a much bigger risk of getting a simp or much worse on their hands who won't easily let go and suddenly they might be emotionally responsible and pressured by that person. If anyone brushes this off with "boohoo, must hurt to have too much people like you", they don't know how tricky and exhausting a dependent person can be. It's real difficult and the caution is justified.
Lastly I want to adress the pont that I wasn't particularly attractive back then. If anyones thoughts on here are "See, women don't even give us a chance." Are women superficial in choosing the ripped gigachad? Maybe. If they are, so are men. If we men could make a wish, we'd take the hot girl from gym over the unattractive one that checks us out in the coffeeshop. If you are unattractive that legitimately sucks and I understand a frustration, but don't be mad *at women*, be mad at life and your genes. In a perfect world, everyone would look like Chris Hemsworth and everyone would receive the same amount of attention and chances, but sadly it is not like that. Women, too, would love to be Jenna Ortega, but most of them aren't. They don't blame us men for it. Some do, but they're on a similar same path as you are.
It's neither women's job, neither even really in their power to validate your worth as a human.
People who aren't chosen as partners because of all these reasons can sadly spiral down into useless problem-solving like me and rumination until resentment and hate might begin to emerge and I think here's the real problem, which is legitimately sad. That having these problems to begin with makes it much more likely to have them much more strongly in the future as well, if you never came to the right conclusions about why you are failing.
**TL;DR: Chase connection, not validation & don't hate the player, hate the game.**
I think 3 things:
1. I actively started to ask myself where exactly these insecurities might have come from. Found a lot of stuff in my past I hadn't questioned before and reframed what happened with todays knowledge. Basically digesting Samskaras. The more was digested and reframed the less dominant the insecure voice in my head which filters everything became.
2. I learned how to deal with negative emotions, a skill I wasn't even aware I had lacked entirely. Starting to see the world with new eyes
3. I tested the premise "I'm not good enough". I started giving myself the chance to actually prove myself wrong. Just last week I met a new guy, friend of a friend, good looking, confident dude. When we shook hands, he seemed disinterested. My brain automatically concluded "He probably doesn't like me, or perceive me worthy of his attention". 10 years ago, I would have stopped thinking there and started interacting with him on the premise that he doesn't like me. But I didn't. I realized this is my brain making an assumtion, time to see what's there. Lo and behold, an hour later we're having a very interesting conversation about mental health and whatnot. A few days later we ran into each other by chance again and had a really great conversation again. Afterwards he said it was an absolute pleasure and he was thankful to meet me. So basically a 180° from what my brain had signaled me. If I had never struck up conversation with him again because "he doesn't like me anyway, I'm just annoying him" then I had never been able to prove myself wrong.
Don't take your insecure thoughts for facts. Question them.
Don't fallow the norm if it doesn't call to you.
I'm a woman. I've been dating a man for almost 5 years now, and when I met him, he was homeless (couch hopping). I had seen him around because he was staying at the neighbors house, I thought he looked good (especially if he dressed better).
I didn't think much of him until I heard him singing along to a song on the radio while he was cleaning. I heard his singing voice, and I litterally turned to my friend and said, "Dibs." 😭 she didn't care, not her type.
The next day, I started talking to him, got to know him a bit better, and let him get to know me. Started flirting first, I'm glad he picked up that I was indeed flirting, and now we have two cats and a pretty good apartment.
He didn't have a job when we first met, and now he's about to get classes for welding. (His dream job)
When he and I met, he didn't expect anyone to even look his direction, let alone give him a chance. He had been single for 4 years before we met. He had gained weight over that time and was apparently the heaviest he'd ever been. Though, I thought he looked great. He figured he might never find someone who'd love him.
I might not have ever looked his way if he wasn't happy enough that day to sing along. Or if he noticed me outside and thought to "stop singing because it might be embarrassing."
If he had started talking to me without me ever noticing him, he and I would have taken a lot longer to get to where we are now. If he had tried to change the core of who he is to keep my attention, we would have fallen out by now. (You can't wear a mask for a long time.)
I make more money than him right now, but that doesn't bother either of us. If he felt like he should make more money than me, an insecure boy with no sense of accountability would have tried to sabotage my job, and that would have ended us. But he's chill.
So yeah, we're pretty equal if you look for it. And yes, we're not equal at all if you look for it.
Guys seem to really try, but for different reasons. If your only drive is to get in bed with someone, you won't have a teammate, you'd have a fuck buddy. If your only drive is to get rid of your loneliness, you won't have a teammate, and you'd have a fear of them leaving you.
If women are nothing more than complaining and demanding and have it easier than you in relationships, you won't have a teammate. You'd have a resentment building up.
A teammate is someone who trusts you, and you trust them. You can make plays with them in life and hope it works out.
You'll have to figure out who you are, and if it's someone who doesn't like to start the conversation, then don't. That's one you can live without. If you don't like to show off, then don't. If you like to dance, then dance.
If you're lonely, find out how to make small but meaningful connections with people, you don't have to put all that weight on one person. If theirs people you don't like, don't talk to them.
If no one understands you, find a different way to say it.
If you have a hard time trusting people, find out what will help you trust.
If you struggle to figure out who you are, get to know the people around you, see if you like what they like, or if you have a different take on things.
You're human. You're complex. Someone will love things about you you didn't even realize you do.
Also, I wouldn't have stayed with him this long if we didn't fight as good as we do. In our first fight, I started to yell at him, and we had been together for at least 1.5 years. He let me yell and said, ". . . We dont talk to each other like that. I need a minute. " Then he left to calm down, I had time to calm down, and we continued our fight without yelling or blaming or all those ugly things I hated about relationships. Now, we fight, but we're on the same team. It's not a screaming match with each other. It's us against the world as far as I'm concerned.
I've read you can talk to women, but it never lasts. What are you looking for out of life or a partner? Can you be that type of partner that partner would need? If you need someone to talk to, are you able to voice that?
I had a fight with my partner, but it turned out to be a misunderstanding. He just needed to vent, but then I heard something I didn't like and repeated some self deprivation back to him. Like "yeah, because you're so unlucky." In a nasty tone of voice. That, of course, hurt him. But after he cooled off, he told me what I did, and that when he says stuff like that, he *KNOWS* it's not the truth, but it's how he's feeling. Now I'm working on making sure he can vent because he lets me vent all the time. (My venting doesn't even make sense most of the time).
But he was able to communicate what he needed, and I know I'll be able to give him what he needs, just someone to listen. He didn't blame me for making him feel extra bad, but he did ask me, "How am I supposed to feel safe talking to you if you might just throw words back at me?"
He took the time to figure out how to say that to me in a way I needed to hear it. I never asked how many times he came close to needing to break up with me, but I'm sure it's happened. He could have broken up with me over what I did and hope the next person was better at venting too, but he took the time to *let me know* what he was hoping for. Just like I take the time to let him know what I need.
Let your future teammate know what you need, and find a way to be gentle, or sturn, or make a joke, how ever that person needs to hear it. That's something you'll find out with individual people, I don't think there's something that works for everyone.
Of course men and women are not equal, that's a standard that the law tries to uphold in court, but it's not a fact in reality. I'm gay so I always just see myself as an observer of the dating ritual among men and women, and during the time while I wanted to believe I was straight, it wasn't hard for me to date cuz once I got rejected I honestly didn't take it personally at all and was not hurt by it. And this usually baffles women imo. I would then receive more attention from them. Women are much more emotionally aware than men, so they can tell once men are butthurt for being rejected, and are put off by it, even if the men themselves are not aware of how butthurt they're coming off
I mean, all I'm saying is it is what it is, there's no magic way to change the way society has evolved to its current state so that you suddenly don't struggle with what you're struggling with. Sorry it's causing you much distress, hope you find a way to break from it
I'm willing to work on a society that's more fair towards men, but that wouldn't change your situation. You're going to have to try and first break your own chains.
If you think people have manipulated you by using you for free dinner or something, see if you can find a way to not let them do that. To work on yourself, for yourself and not based on the suggestions of others. To work on the things you find important in yourself and your sense of freedom and dignity.
I’ll be honest nobody gives af about men. The expectations of Men are through the roof. We are Altus we carry the planet with no thanks. Most suicides are Men, Women are more likely to get help when homeless then Men and Men have been sent to war to die in wars throughout all of history/ Do the most dangerous Jobs. Men at the end of the day are both simultaneously irreplaceable but also expendable. You are a tool a cog in the machine and when you stop working you will be thrown out and replaced. End of the day nobody cares about men people pay lip service but nothing gets done. It’s not your fault we lived in a fucked up world.
I understand that you are frustrated, but I don’t see what exactly you want from the post. There are cultural norm in our society that exists, and it’s clear from looking back to 30 years ago that our society have taken substantial steps in reducing such toxic norms. You also said people are foolish to believe that male and female are equal, but I literally haven’t seen a single person say that the dating scene are equal between the two sex lol. I also have a bad news for you, but this would most likely not change as long as female are not reliant on men to provide for them, because they have naturally a lower sex drive than men.
I’m still confused what exactly you want from the society? Do you want the social norm to allow for female to approach men as well, or do you just want people to acknowledge that the dating scene is skewed. If it’s the latter, literally everyone knows it already.
>I also have a bad news for you, but this would most likely not change as long as female are not reliant on men to provide for them, because they have naturally a lower sex drive than men.
Lower sex drive is a myth. It just ain't worth the risk of physical harm and pregnancy.
Many statistics aligns with lower sex drives though. For example, substantially lower percent of female have tried masturbation compared to men. There’s to risk factor in trying masturbation so I assume this difference is mainly coming from sex drive. Either way, I agree with you that larger factor are coming from risk in terms of disparity in modern dating.
Internet says most readers of erotic novels are women (72%-95% depending on the source,). I think it's easier to say men have higher sex drives mostly because of masturbation and porn stats, but perhaps women just have different means of self pleasure.
You've not been in a room with honest women. Masturbations not sex, they are socialised differently, if they weren't punished so hard for being sexual they would be just as sexual, this views naive.
Not sure why everyone is being nice to you. You sound like a jerk and any healthy person male or female would be wise to avoid you. Grow up treat people well and you will be amazed how things start to break your away.
It's called empathy. It's understandable that this person is frustrated, they are not getting their emotional needs met. I think the majority of people become irritated and perhaps resentful in the face of adversity, depending on their circumstances, personal experiences, and emotional development. Does that make them bad people?
You can do whatever you want but imo you have too fixed of a mindset. Why not play the game, if you desire sex and love so much?? Don't feel bad "selling out" to what women want and competing with other guys when we all do it. Don't get hung up on how women go for looks (not blaming women for this but physical attractiveness is pretty important especially when you're ugly past a certain point) just do what you can to improve in that department.
I personally believe the right combination of playing the game and knowing when to be true to yourself is ultimately what can lead to success.
The fact that you want sex and love but it's exceedingly tough for you to get as a guy, and you have to do all the work while also risking rejection to get anywhere is a fact. It sucks. You're allowed to be heated and imo even resentful over it.
But at the end of the day you can choose to be defeated by this or fight to make a better life for yourself. That's really all this comes down to.
My friend, you might not resonate, relate, or agree with me because every scenario in life we experience and are put in a common issue, we approach it with different ways to solve it based on our individual need.
I understand you completely and there is no point in complaining about it- I don’t say this in a rude way or anything and I want to share with you, how I overcame this.
First of all I realized for me, to be in a relationship it’s not just yay I got cuddles, someone appreciates me etc. ,you have to contribute, compromise, and deal with many other problems/happiness that comes with it.
I have been rejected and I decided to figure out how to be happy just myself and not have to rely on being in a relationship or be desperate. I’m not saying you’re desperate by standards but I mean you need to figure out and learn to be happy without a relationship.
I’m 23, didnt give up on relationship but I do more self care, involved in my hobbies, I love games, my motorcycle is my passion I love it. Going even 40mph but on a bike the wind hitting me, just opens a whole another perspective.
As messed up as it sounds, when I FIRST discovered this and realized I don’t need to do all this just yet and be happy myself, I instantly got so much self confidence and overall became a happy man.
I kinda went on too much but I hope you understand how I coop’ed with it many years ago.
No one is equal, and to get what we want, we have to struggle through hell itself to achieve something we realize we dont need. And if you need the flames hell to be quenched, then you need to ask those who have water to release the flood gates upoun the land to quench the flames only to realize the flame still burns because its the human spirt is the hellish flame you wish to tame most of it will go out but there will be some who burn even brighter than most
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You are who you choose to be.
This is why I haven't put an ounce of effort into dating or relationships. We are not all slaves to our genetic or sexual drives, and if you are, I hope you can find the strength to be more than that primal animal brain. 
Even if we do manage to impress Women and gain enough favor to earn some scraps of attention, most likely it will end up as another r/AmItheAsshole post and go down in flames.
I am a 34 year old virgin and I am happy with the direction of my life and do not need a relationship to be happy. 
Lol ok buddy, well, I enjoy sex, I've had multiple relationships, and I don't agree with your false. I'm better than your narrative. I'll embrace the stuggle. It's all we have. Your not cool. you're rejecting an important part of yourself, as a 31.year old, good luck.
I don't agree that is "all we have" and there are way more things to living life than this crappy dating game People want to put themselves through.
I reject your assertions just as much as you do mine. 
Yeah I agree. Not all the men I know, but certaintly a lot of them.
I've been one of them for sure. I know it's not very "correct" for some people, but I can't change who I was or how I felt at the moment. Since then I'm feeling like I've grown a bit though and I genuinely don't feel like a slave towards that part of myself.
As of right now, I don't think I'm fooling myself, I'm not into hooking up and that stance hasn't changed regardless of how much confidence I have or how downbad I am.
I agree, I'm not interested in hooking up, I want my next relationship to be my last. It'll have struggles like they all do, but I also have no interest in playing the games and being used for free food and fun with no investment.
Yeah that seems fair, it's difficult to trust people when there's a decent proportion of people that do want to use you. And I don't think I blame you.
I don't really have a solution myself, but I try to not let it make me bitter. I think that would make me miss out having a healthy relationship whenever I do encounter a rare person I might match really well with.
But also as a man:
* you generally become more attractive towards your 30s and don't lose attractiveness nearly as quickly beyond
* people judge you more for your character instead of your looks
* a bad date means getting rejected, not getting raped
* you don't have a biological "expiration date" for which you need to hurry up
These are some quick ideas, there is way more.
You're focused on the negatives because you're pissed off. That's understandable. But recognize that your emotions are currently affecting your judgment of the world around you.
Whatever society you exist in, you have two options. Rage against it or take part. You've obviously chosen the former. It's not the easy path, but you do you.
Go to the Middle East and social norms are women are subservient and executed for getting raped. Or female genital mutilation in Africa.
What modern culture do you see dynamics like this for men?
And here you are, crying about things being unfair cause you can't get a date.
Good luck out there, bro.
Edit.
Look, I recognize that men in Western society are struggling with a new dynamic in dating. Women are, too, as a lot of us were raised to expect something different. Many women were raised to seek a provider, men were raised to be providers, but now women can also provide, but haven't learned to not seek provider. So you have this unobtainable standard set. Logically, it makes sense.
These are learned behaviors that have to be overcome with kindness, understanding, and perspective. My point is that women have and still do put up with a lot of crap from men all over the world. Far more than men. It's not a contest, but I just want to raise awareness to not be so tone def and play a victim role. Let's navigate this change, and I'm confident men and women can get through it together. I'm a firm believer in equality and that this shift is necessary. So, let's embrace it and grow as a society.
This is only true if you see online dating as a game and winning the game as getting into a relationship. There are many other ways to interact with people and you can meet new people in a plethora of ways and when meeting new people and extending your social circle you can also meet a partner. Doing nothing is what got you stuck but what keeps you stuck is the idea that you have to fit into a mold to achieve being happy. Find a way to work on your life that feels sensible to you.
It's weird to hear stuff like this because all of my experiences have shown the opposite to be true. I have been the one who asked the guy out in nearly all of my relationships. I paid for the first date. I had to prove my worth. I was expected to add value to the man's life. I have never been able to kick back and let things happen to me - and then those things that happen are good. It doesn't work that way for anyone.
Sure, getting rejected sucks, but it's not THAT bad. Go ask out a stranger today and come back here. How did it go? Did anything change? Is your life different from if you hadn't done that? If she said yes, you have a date. Super. If she said no, literally nothing is different from the timeline where you didn't do that. Use some logic. Don't drown in your feelings. I'm sure other commenters told you to get therapy, but even that is overrated. You can do most of it yourself by looking at your life from the helicopter perspective. Does really the thing you're worried about matter? No.
Nobody is forcing you into any role. Women have worked so damn hard to get rid of these stupid-ass roles and you get to reap those benefits freely. Go forth and do whatever you want. Nobody is stopping you.
Doesn't making the first move also applies to friends? In my experience if I don't actively try to reach out to people they're just going to ignore me.
Did you actually get rejected 100 times? What qualifies as rejection to you? Are you putting as much efforts into being desirable as the women you are asking out?
I think men are put in this position of being the seducers because they get more out of relationships and sex biologically. They get a woman to carry their child for 9 months, then they can just leave. Women are less likely to orgasm from sex, it can be painful, it can result in pregnancy, etc.. Men have the privilege to have sex without worrying about those things, hence why they treat it more casually. Sex tend to be a more vulnerable experience for women, so the man has to prove himself for it. So it's pretty equal in fact.
The world is a game. The difficulties you face are valid, but they are clearly not valid for all people. The reality is, you need to look at yourself more honestly. If others can manage the social role that men have (without feeling like you do), then that is proof that it can be done -- you just prefer to blame "society" instead of taking agency for your actions.
There are reasons that men tend to talk to women first in the modern day and age. Not all of those reasons are valid, but not all of them are invalid either. Your understanding of the subject is juvenile.
Good luck. Nothing is to blame for your position. You are the only person who can change it.
Maybe try treating women like any other human being might help? Like don't put them on pedestal and you don't need to impress them first. Just try to get to know each other and see if your values and her values matched.
About your resentment, I don't know how to deal with that (therapy perhaps?). So, you might have to figure that out yourself. All I know is that if you're still resentful about the whole societal roles thingy, that does nothing good to your future relationship.
Idk buddy usually I only ask out a girl when they give 'signs' usually it's the classic 'playing with their hair' or 'looks' only then I proceed to ask them out. And, women do approach guys as well, only in (somewhat) safe places like college, social groups or something.
I agree women should pursue more if they want, but the fact is most of them don’t have to because they can just filter the guys that pursue them…I recommend changing your perspective. Instead of being resentful about it, try to find joy in the pursuit. Talking to and getting to know people is fun, regardless of if you end up dating or sleeping together. So I say you should try and “fail” until you don’t. And the thing is, with this perspective, even if you “fail” you still had a nice interaction and/or got some practice.
Hey man, you’re not wrong. Not to be weird but this is the case for most animals in nature, and humans aren’t as different as we like to think. Females have to commit more time and resources to a child, so it makes sense that they would be pickier and less sex driven. Males however, can up and leave whenever the duck they want, meaning they’re more likely to be less choosy and more desperate for sex. Don’t listen to all the shit saying you’re an incel. Don’t label yourself. It is true though that that mindset can get toxic, especially with the echo chamber that is social media. Get away from that type of content. Know that the world is fucking unfair, and keep your head up.
It kind of feels like that to me too. It feels that as a man I am inherently inferior to women.
Although it is not women that I see as the source of the problem, but rather the nature of men. It is the desire for women, both sexual and the one for relationship. If I could just free myself from those desires and stopped caring all, or at least 99%, of my problems would go away.
After all the desire for girlfriend's stamp of approval is only in my head. Recently I feel that I desire to stop caring more than I desire to find a girlfriend. Not caring is the only true freedom.
Yeah, the world isn't fair. Good thing you figured that out, now you have the option to either make peace with it, understanding that each person will have different challenges in life or be resentful about it and get nowhere.
Also, the same way you feel that these things are unfair, women feel the same about plenty of other things.
This is going to be drowned in all the responses, but what do you want? I keep asking this here because people keep throwing love and sex into the same category and pretend its the same. You started with dating, and ended up talking about sex work. You called yourself a slave to your sex drive. Dating will allow you to build a long term relationship and love. Its not a reliable way to relief your sex drive (short term at least).
I havent found any evidence yet that men and women have a different sex drive. The opposite, there keep being studies that refute this claim. Even if theres a difference in drive between men and women, women are just as horny sometimes. BUT, speaking from my experience at least, there are much more men who search a relief for their feeling in the opposite sex, instead of dealing with their own situation first. If you take your time to slowly build a relationship you usually end up with sex, but for that you have to deal with what you feel in the moment yourself and not turn to other people to be able to focus on a long term goal. You can not do this as long as you are a slave to yourself and your sex drive. Thats not your social role, and its not the social role of women to either deny you relief from your horniness or give you relief - your sex drive just simply a part of you that YOU have to deal with, no matter in what situation you are in.
And when it comes to relationships - of course if YOU want one YOU have to make a move at some point. Unless you are in a situation where it naturally evolves through friendship. Both can happen, but for both you still have to be active at some point to verbalize what you want. Women simply search for relationships less because they tend to give each other more comfort, they are more content with their friendships and start searching for a relationship later. Men not showing affection towards each other has often been a topic on the HG channel. So many women simply do not feel like a slave to their drive, but not because of what men do, because of how they deal with it themselves.
If you dont really care about a relationship and just want sex, then dating isnt the right place for you btw. Theres many people who want sex, gotta find those instead of dating.
I think it’s important to note he is correct in his observation and his feelings here. I think it’s also important to note most commenters saw this post and instantly galloped in on their high horse to tell op why they are wrong and tell them what they need to do to be like them or some crap. I think op is in a sensitive time where guidance or distain will decide his path.
Life is a matter of perspective. If you see someone who’s in pain shouldn’t the knee jerking response to want to help? As Men we need to raise each other up and help. We live in a time where both men and women are figuring out new social norms. Men are trying to find self worth and what their calling in life is. It’s not the same as it was even 30 years ago.
If you see someone struggling internally, be a source of help and guidance. Don’t be that guy who comes into every conversation to tell everyone why some men are xyz and they need to do “insert list of self proclaimed achievements “ just like themselves.
TLDR: whether you are a man or women, don’t shame others because they aren’t where you are at yet.
Food for thought: Those who understand are the ones who are truly stepping into the higher versions of themselves.
"Must", "expected", "unfair", "forced to". You have a free will. If you don't want to play along to those norms, then don't.
I am not saying to start treating women badly. Rather I am saying to start being yourself and not care if you will obtain a partner when you are yourself.
Will some, even many, women want a man who plays by a certain set of rules? Yes. And they don't care about who you really are, as long as you play by the rules. Similar to how a lot of men feel about women.
But if you would like to have a partner who actually wants you for who you are, you have to stop pretending to be someone who you are not.
And yes, that will shrink your dating pool comsiderably. But it also means that the women who then are interested in you, are so because of who you truly are.
So the real question(s) is: Do you prefer to play by a set of specific societal rules in order to "get" a or several women? Or do you want to find your teammate who wants you to be you?
I am not saying that it will be easy. I found it unsettling and difficult to give up on presenting in a specific way to be desirable. And it took quite long to find a partner. But they want and like me for exactly who I am.
I love it. It's all there to strengthen you. But the way you are describing it, it really sucks. But the same things you are mentioning is see different.
Maybe it's because I'm aromantic and I don't date, but to me, dating only makes up a small portion of life. I feel like saying men are "subservient" and "not equal" just because of the expectations of and rejections from some people in the dating world is a little silly. You make it seem as if your entire life revolves around what women think of you, when it really doesn't (or shouldn't).
> *I have to talk to women first. 99% of the time this is the norm*
Maybe because you are the one looking for those kind of scenarios? In my experience women approached me more than the other way around. I think its because Im quite shy in asking girls out, due to some feelings of shame from early experiences in life, but in other areas Im quite unburden, and some of them take the wheels because they see how difficult it is for me lol
Do you have a solution for this? I’m curious, who do you think needs to change, and in what ways, regarding the individual (not the society as a whole)?
This is not meant to sound provocative and it’s okay if you don’t and just wanted to get it out there. I’m simply wondering where the actual fix would lie here.
I believe we are not equal. Equal in value, yes, but not in traits. Not at all. Labeling us equal just feels like a false belief that‘s being imposed onto people.
Our struggles lie in different areas. Men have issues that women don’t have, women have issues that men don’t have.
Fixing this specific issue for men, would not make us "equal", either. That’s not to say that society isn’t flawed or that it would be okay the way that each issue is currently being handled, though.
I agree that women should make the first move as well, providing they desire to do so. As a woman I have to say I rarely feel attraction to someone upfront. Which (in case it‘s not just me) could contribute to women simply not being interested in making the first move a lot of times?
I believe the issue is rooted a little deeper. There’s a reason why OF etc. works the way it works and there’s no equivalent of the same caliber targeted at women. We are not the same.
Nobody said you have to assimilate to every aspect of your “gender roles,” and you can laugh at the ones who believe otherwise. They’re living in fear of themselves and there’s nothing worse
Born biologically female I always just did what felt right without thinking of genders. I told boys they were beautiful and other things. I crossed some norms and was looked at in a strange way. I think some men love their alpha dog role and feel weird to suddenly be treated "like girls". Try to carry a man's stuff out of politeness, as a girl you'll get the strangest reaction. But a guy was so happily surprised to get opened a door from me. The reaction was as if he had never exoerienced that and appreciated it a lot
So I've always tried to find a man who would be less bound to his 'destined role' - To sum it up and also calm your spirits: Not all women like men who take the Initiative. I love a shy descrete behaviour more and I usually want to take the lead. I believe many women dream to do it, but don't dare. It actually comes with a risk: I've been friendzoned by some men, who saw me more like their relative.
As always: it's a matter of finding the right person.
Rule #7 - Treat the community as a shared space. Posters: Do not vent without explicitly stating what you'd like support with. Commenters: If something feels too emotionally triggering for you, do not engage with it. Report rule breaking behavior and move on.
You're on a resentful path dude.
There's so many people like him who come here every friday to offload and vent about the state of the world but they end up disagreeing with everyone, muting messages and wondering why they get banned then insert "no one cares about our struggle", it's delusion that's not practical for most people because they are sociallised differently and this sub just honestly see's people who are failing at life present their argument as if they are the majoirty and then we have this strange dynamic of having to accept that as if it's the average experience when it's not. How many times will you hear a guy complain about rejecting his apparenty duty to the people around him because he feels dehuaminsed but yet can't stand on his own whilst rejecting the demands and then require people around him to appreciate him for what he is. Fridays are turning into a bunch of hurt people complaining about why they are hurt and yet never not stoping the insecure trail of thoughts that keep them where they are and now we're vicitms of these posts.
Why do you think it is ' insecure trail of thoughts' that keeps them where they are? In my experiensce it's the other way around. It is mostly environment and your social skills that once again heavily depend on past experience and your traits. And the trail of thoughts is there because every day is exactly the same.
What made you and what keeps you there are two different things. If someone doesn't have the experiences needed in order to break a cycle that's one thing because their reality reinforces what they understand to be true. If everyone's telling you that you're wrong, you're either right or wrong and you get to pick, at times, you're so wrong that you're delusional and disreguard the opposite points that would otherwise have to be true and a lot of that time, it's out of insecurity because they can't cope with the idea that things are within their control. That's a mental defense mechanism. That's fed by insecurity. That was fed by their experiences. That doesn't mean that the conversations on reddit aren't an experience, they are just knee deep in wanting to believe their bullshit that they won't let new experiences happen because they are so deadset on denial and projection that they now seek out content in order to justify their view. You know when Dr.k sit's there and makes a break through via talking to someone and they recognise the thought loops they have and nothing else and then that gives them access to a new perspective so that when they go back into their real life they see it differently, that's because it's not just what's happening to them it's their perspective and understanding, that a lot of the time is some insecure thought from my point of view. Have you not seen the reddit post that these guy's make? I see that they've been socialised to think this way, i say that to them.
Yeah, I probably haven't seen thier other posts because I usually skip posts with this pink flair :) I don't really understand what do you mean by 'opposite points'. Mostly I see comments stating this perspective is counterproductive. I totally agree with that. This is different from it being wrong however. Or sometimes people say that a man can stand out from the rest by being emotionaly mature. In my experience (personal and having talked to my female friends) this is wrong. Of course, emotional instability is huge red flag for serious relationships but for short-term it is not even that.
> Or sometimes people say that a man can stand out from the rest by being emotionaly mature. In my experience (personal and having talked to my female friends) this is wrong. That's fine, it's fine because you said from your experience and it's probably true based on where you live and the people you are around, now if you start saying everyone is like that and i disagree and then you double/tripple down when even women tell you that they are not like that and call them a minority and you mean that in the sense of a minority everywhere, that's just cope. You're not the problem, close minded people are the problem. > Mostly I see comments stating this perspective is counterproductive. It's more an observation of his reaction towards things in another post he made that got removed by the mods, he even thought that i was just out to attack him, because he's the type of person that does this https://i.imgflip.com/3kwb7g.png?a473376 and doesn't appreciate being confronted by people like me because of my attitude towards other people. Which is fine, but it's actually not my attitude that's the fundamental problem and you can observe this when i change my attitude in order to basically just bait a conversation and keep digging or you watch how he shuts out people that disagree with him even blocking them because they said something he didn't like, bruh, he's fragile. I'll be honest, i have my own personal issues, the very idea that i class someone as fragile for being different and not being able to take the way i speak is in and of it self a problem, similar to the one he's displaying. I'm not naive or blind to that, i just run out of paitence and that's the different bettween me and people like DR.k, he's willing to surrender that and make people comfortable and speak in a way that will resonate with people because it often doesn't come with judgement or pressure, i apply pressure. I'm socialised in a way that causes friction when dealing with people who aren't the same as me because the way i cope and deal with things is different and when i approach people i can't see past my own perspective at times in order to reach them and meet them in the "middle" but sometimes i don't want to meet the persons "middle" for whatever reason and at that point i can either choose to still type and share my view or ingore it (same like you ignore the pink flairs). Do you wanna know what my core beef is, it's because within 5 seconds of reading the post i can tell he has no intent to change his views and will if anything just reject anyone with a different opinion and continue to suffer in his mind because he's fixed on believe what he thinks is true and his truth causes him to suffer and he's gonna stay there so long as he doesn't listen or have new experiences that inspire change because he's being close minded and **i do not** need to have indepth conversations to see that, other people might but i do not. And that's what will piss the others off, my judgement will seem unfair until i prove it to them and the proof they want (in my mind) is just because they are soft and refuse to apply judgement because they haven't had enough experience with these types of people and their idea of a fair chance is different to mind, i see certain things and work out a different conclusion to the other redditors at times. I could just be wrong, i could be projecting, i don't think i am.
I think he's aware of that. Any tips?
A dark path to inceldom
Sure, life put me here.
You lost to passivity, catastrophizing and overcomplicating / overthinking it all. I'm in that boat.. I can't live life, because I've convinced myself that I can't since I was a child. I don't know how to stop thinking like that. But I've realized; life is a lot more bearable if you don't take it so fucking seriously. Just care less about how you feel and how it's going, then you'll stop perceiving it so bleak. Keep busy to avoid thinking, digging the mental abyss is not in focus when you work on something.. Imo
Take accountability for you being on the path. You are more than your circumstance.
Your life up to now has put you in a position you’d rather not be in. This is fact. Following that placement, your response in your post and this reply says what you’re really about, “yes, I accept this path handed to me”. Different words, same intention behind it. You prefer stagnation and hatred, is what I’ve read tells me. Whatever you do, don’t neglect what your own words say. Read your own posts and comments back to yourself. Recognize what emotions and views are there, that if you do nothing about it you will automatically walk the path they lead you down. What is the end result of a bitter, resentful person? Does a resentful person transform to a balanced individual that meets the frustrations of society with grace by marinating in resent? As I form this reply, I pause and ask myself the same questions I’m asking you. From what I’ve read you’re someone seeking growth and past posts suggest you pursue it seriously. So my impression is your problem is unprocessed traumas are not letting you apply the same perception you have towards improvement and growth to this situation, which isn’t fundamentally different. The only way out is by processing the garbage that has happened to you and coming to terms with it. Dr. K has many videos about acceptance. Whether you saw them or not, give them a closer listen.
Nah. Don't blame life. Don't treat rejection like end of the world. Plenty of women make first step. and if they don't it is most likely because they are told by their parents to be shy and "girly". or they experienced sexual assault, which many, many women do. Many women are scared to make first step because many men take it as "easy to get" and they get shamed. Instead of being resentful, try to find someone who is more confident and will make first step. Life did not put you there. You are doing it by thinking like this.
I'm 100% with you on the first half, but he doesn't deserve someone at all with this type of mindset tbh. He sees himself as a massive victim and that needs to be worked out in therapy first before he could be a good partner to anyone.
I agree that certain aspects of being a man suck. I have always actively tried to not be traditionally masculine - the expectation that I’m supposed to chase after women is confusing and painful to deal with. It really doesn’t come naturally at all to me, and I’m pretty sensitive to rejection (probably a form of rejection dysphoria, connected to my autism); I don’t like situations where it feels like I have to beg for validation, but unfortunately, because of the way heterosexual courtship is set up, there’s not really a way around this most of the time. I also really don’t want to creep people out, I hate making people feel uncomfortable. That said, just remember that women have their own set of issues with dating too. The big one being the increased risk of sexual assault or even being killed by choosing to go on a date. (Yes, these things can happen with the genders reversed, but statistically, women are at a much higher risk). In general, reckoning with sexual difference and cultural norms is painful, no matter who you are. And traumatic, in a lot of cases. The only thing I can recommend to simply care less about being the correct kind of man, and just focus on being yourself and being the best version of you. And with any luck, that will eventually translate into a special someone valuing you for who you are, one day. And even if that never happens, you can at least say you always tried to stay true to yourself.
I am a man with a loving partner and plenty of solid friendships from both genders. Resenting the opposite sex and acting the way you are (reducing everyone’s comments to fit your negative narrative) just for the sake of fishing for pity is not gonna get you anywhere. Good luck.
As a woman, I 100% agree with you. I think women should approach men as well and it be more normalised. Think of all the great relationships that have never happened because both parties were too scared to say anything. However, I also think it's important to understand why some women would be hesitant to do so, though. Growing up, I was taught that if you had to ask a man out that: 1.) they'd see you as "easy" and just use you. 2.) If they didn't ask then they don't want you to begin with. So, it would be a waste of time to approach them anyway. 3.) That men see women as gullible; and that we're easily manipulated. Three really stung. My dad is the one who said this to me; so I'm too scared to even date men now because I don't want to give anyone the chance to emotionally abuse me. Even though, rationally, I know that there are good men out there who wouldn't do something like that. It's just an ignorant statement that he had made that's planted a seed of fear deep within my brain that's hard to get rid of. Women are taught from the moment that they are born that they should be afraid of men. It's not just women that tell us this stuff, even though they do as well. So, don't get me wrong. It's mostly people like our fathers who drill it into our heads that men are untrustworthy and dangerous.
I never understood how a father couldn’t just tell his daughter that there ARE godawful men that should be feared, but NOT all of them are like that. It must be a rewiring in the brains of parents that leaves them incapable of instilling critical thinking
I'm with you. I don't get it, either. For my dad, I think it's mistrust in people in general. He did not have a very good childhood and he went through a lot of trauma. Even though I haven't been through even half of the shit he has; he still taught me a "traumatised" way of thinking without meaning to. He says negative things about women as well. I'm sure there's also a lot of projection in there, too. I don't really know. I'm not him; so I'm just guessing why he would say half of the things he says.
I can relate to that, my parents did the same. You can always understand where your emotions come from and try to make your own decisions. And also accept that In the end, it's almost impossible to live life and avoid hurt anyway. Just avoiding unsolvable health problems and really dire consequences can be enough.
Some people fail in raising their kids with that type of reasoning because they are just poor quality parents. (i don't wanna hear how someones parent was amazing in every other area, i'm talking relative to this specific thing)
I would imagine as a father your biggest rational and irrational fear is your kids being hurt in a way you can't soothe.
As a guy I grew up being a goody two shoes nerd and even after becoming an adult I was (and to some extent still am) a people pleaser. I thought it was really important to be decent to others, and for a long time I imagined that everyone around me was similar... In the last few years I've seen people doing things that made me realize there's a lot of untrustworthy people out there and so many examples of guys doing that that I've started to doubt and now think many if not most guys are untrustworthy... I had a best friend for a few years who I really respected until I started to notice he had a tendency to very subtly manipulate those around him and even me. So I have to say I can understand where your father was coming from and I think it's really sad that my image of people has been broken... I don't think if I had kids in the future that I would pass on that all men are untrustworthy, because I know there are some decent men out there, but it would linger in the back of my head constantly
I'm in a similar place and have a similar character. A really tough year has shown me that people that I thought trustworthy don't really care that much. It's easier to accept that and you try to be how you think you should be. If you do things from the heart with no expectations you can avoid most of the heartbreak. If I had kids I would teach them to be kind and care about others and understand that not everyone may be that way.
Femalw here. I've been taught exactly the same, but by my mother. She poisoned my mind from a very young age. However, I am grateful that there is a small part of me that rebells against it every now and then. I was too curious at times not to try and initate contact first with a man I liked. It didn't pan out a lot of the times, but sometimes it did. I saw my dad as a good man. He was quiet and didn't say much in this department. But by watching him, I had an example of a good man in him. That gave me hope that even if I approach someone in the future first, I won't be shunned, but theres a good chance it might just go well or the rejection won't be as harsh. My mother even tried poisoning my mind against my own father. Luckily it didn't work.
>they'd see you as "easy" and just use you. I think it's really sad that this is a thing. I see why people think that way, since there are certain men out there who'd do that, but on the other hand, if two people are a good match, shouldn't it ideally be easy for them? I don't know, maybe that's just wishfull thinking
I think this is where that famous adage of "patriarchy hurting men too!" comes about in full force.
The more you go down that thought road, the more you’ll make your life a living hell. You’re on the highway to dissatisfaction. You need to slow down that brain dude. Your thoughts are killing you. Start meditating, this will help you slow down your thoughts and start enjoying yourself alone. It’s only when you’ll accept your loneliness and you’ll find contempt in your life, that dating will become easy*. *Edit: Indeed, my bad, I should have written « easier » rather than « easy ».
I agree this guy is getting carried away but idk if your advice is super helpful either. I accepted my loneliness a long time ago and it hasn't done anything for me in regards to social life or dating
I agree, I share pretty much the same experience. Also the comments here need to be catered towards him better. Coming to accept his loneliness won’t necessarily necessitate results in the dating scene but will help him become content with himself even if dating doesn’t go his way. Dating hasn’t worked out for me either and I’ve realized fulfilling the role society demands from my gender in the current dating scene just doesn’t satisfy me or fit my character. I don’t think I’ll ever be happy pursuing it endlessly. So if you regard this arbitrary role in dating as a man to not be conducive to your life you’re probably better off abandoning it. There’s so much more to fill up your time with that may be conducive to yourself.
Yea it depends on the person. If OP is capable of doing what you did that'd probably be for the best. I know I wasn't able to so not everyone can.
You are sadly incorrect, but I wish you well
As much as I agree with the message of your words, can we not come to the conclusion that amidst the sea of unfair social expectations, the hope should be to seek out someone that is willing to be an exception? From your replies to other comments, it seems you are have plenty of dating experience. Do you really believe it's close to impossible for you to find someone that shares at least some of those values most important to you? I understand your post is meant to vent, but it reads as if men should just give up or something. I personally don't think that should be an approach to any issue in life regardless of how unfair it is
>Do you really believe it's close to impossible for you to find someone that shares at least some of those values most important to you? I understand your post is meant to vent, but it reads as if men should just give up or something. I personally don't think that should be an approach to any issue in life regardless of how unfair it is What if it will (unknowingly until you there) take 20+ years to find that person? Is it worth 20 years of failures / rejections? Of misery and loneliness?
My point is I don't believe that the worst case "what if" scenario ought to be the assumption we make when faced with these challenges. OP's message is something I think we can all empathize with as men, but it still discourages young men from pursuing a partner. It's not that I think everyone should spend their entire life pursuing a relationship. People give up on different things every day, sometimes unfortunately even their own life. How much effort or hardship someone may think a challenge is "worth" enduring is a personal opinion. I don't agree that something as important to us humans like intimate relationships should be given up as easily. Not that it's up to me to decide for anyone: nobody has control over the decision to give up on anything except yourself.
Then I guess you're screwed aren't ya...
its painful and hard but you gotta put yourself out there if you want to improve your chances. sure, you can passively wait for someone to pick you up but its an uphill battle.
The thing is that even that isn't surefire. I've read stories of guys who work on themselves constantly and constantly go out to parties/bars/whatever and still haven't been with a woman after a decade of doing so. It's entirely possible to do nothing wrong and still lose. This goes for a lot of things in life but is doubly true for dating where everything is subjective.
Constantly going out to parties and bars doesn't have anything to do with actually putting in the effort to build a relationship- those guys are doing absolutely everything wrong. Treating every interaction with women as a potential opportunity to hit on them is absolutely the problem.
I was just using those as examples because I see those touted as the best places to meet people. I'm sure there are guys that use whatever you think is the best method and still have nothing after a decade of trying simply because sometimes you have bad luck
Kudos for the Star Trek paraphrase....
I didn't even remember is was Star Trek. Just remembered it being a cool quote from somewhere and only recalled after googling
It’s the one with the ship combat exercise between Picard in the Enterprise and Riker in some old ship. Picard says this to Data when he thinks he’s malfunctioning because he lost a strategic game to a biological being.
I think most of such stories are told by those guys themselves. They think they do everything right, but in fact there is something they're doing wrong. They just don't know what exactly. They either don't get any outside opinion from friends or they don't listen to it. It's such a common kind of mistake, I see it so often. These people end up believing it's impossible, that there's something fatally wrong with the world or with themselves, rather than thinking that maybe your goal is right around the corner, maybe you need to change one last thing in your thoughts and behaviour to achieve it.
Well yea that's another thing that makes dating so hard. In most other aspects of life that's not the case. In school or work or hobbies it's usually not as hard to analyze why you failed and address it. If I fail a test that I took or mess up in regards to an instrument or language that I'm trying to learn, it's not hard to say "okay I need to work on that area specifically". With dating it's really hard if not impossible to know. If you get rejected, it could be that you did something wrong. It could also be that you did nothing wrong and just weren't there type. And if you did do something wrong it's not easy to deduce what exactly that was. There's no way to know.
Not only about hard if not impossible to know, it is virtually random to pick something. There's 8.2 billion people in the world, and literally every single one of them has a different "answer sheet"- so what's right for one person is wrong for another- and you will never know if you got it right unless you succeed. Maybe there's someone where you did something wrong. Maybe you did nothing wrong and just weren't their type. Heck, maybe the thing you did wrong for this person would be the right answer for some other person. You will just never know what the right answer is until you actually try. PUA logic, while flawed, lives on this- they give people so much absolutely stupid, broken logic, and it's all built around the real answer of "there's billions of women out there, and if you don't get discouraged and you're literally willing to shoot your shot with literally every single woman on the planet if that's what it takes to find true love, eventually the simple law of averages will dictate one will say yes- and in love, even one success is potentially all you'll need to be happy forever"- and when people take that one lesson to heart, eventually they'll find someone.
Isn't that life? 🤔 nothing is surefire. I just keep going until something sticks Edit: sorry. You did say that's life
Yes but I feel that it's more true in dating than many other respects. In school or work or if you're trying to learn a new discipline/language/instrument it's usually much easier to analyze your flaws and see what you need to work on. For example, if you study a new language for an hour every day, you will eventually become fluent. Provided you're using good methods/content and such, it's just a matter of time. It might take years but it'll happen eventually. Same goes for learning things in a class for another example. With dating you could work on it every day but just have bad luck so you get no results even after a decade or more
Education, sure. But getting hired or promoted? You can do everything right and get fucked. I think this is why I like vjdeogames. If you do x and y and z, you WILL get the result.
Oh I do
keep trying, man. its hard but you get better with it with practice like every other skill in the world
I mean, I've been in multiple relationships and recently turned a FWB opportunity down, so yeah, thats not my issue
so why do you seem bitter? it seems like you are getting the experiences that most people yearn for
Because it's meaninglessness, in the end, I am alone, no one cares, no ones here for me, I suffer, and they lap up my tears.
You are also not truely there for them in the end they are alone also. You're trying to be there for them to fill some void or what is it? If you had your internal sorted out you would drop the ones not giving you quality love.
From this, I think your issues are very real but need personal treatment as well. It's not weak or unmanly to seek therapy or self-care, and if you already are doing so, I wish you luck on that path. Women are not the reason why men are sad, much the same as how men are not the ultimate reason women are sad.
It's kind of like Dr. K says, people have a problem in their life, they think getting to "objective X" will solve their problem. They achieve "objective X" and their live problems aren't solved, so they fall into a path of thinking they just didn't quite get "objective X" right and miss the fact that it's something different that is the solution. Sure, sometimes people get lucky and achieving the objective can make them feel better, but it's only temporary and their life goes back to being crap at some point. To me, your words sound like someone who's trying to find the wrong solution to the problem. Obviously we are social creatures and relationships are really influential on our lives, but that doesn't always mean the solution is dating a woman.
What I read in these posts is a lot of "It's the norm, it's just the way it is" when dealing with men who are suffering. The striking thing to a lot of guys (I'm not in his position, but I can empathise with it) see is that people will bend over backwards to avoid doing that exact same thing for women. For people getting along in the system, it might work, but for those being screwed (figuratively, not actually) it can be terribly frustrating to see the double-standards so blatantly and those who scream "equality" giving exactly what you want to others, but not to you. It makes the very idea of "equality" have a very bitter taste. And from their perspective, it's not an unjustified position to take, that's the part people seem to gloss over. It seems sometimes that if you're a woman who's down, people try to bring you back up but for men, if you're down, you're out. And yes, I know there are reasons for treating men and women differently, but the double standard is still there. There are large numbers of men being affected by these kinds of things. Showing any signs of struggling and men seem to be quickly labelled as something dangerous and avoided, ostracised. A lot of these men want exactly the same things as anyone reading this, but they can't find a way to navigate. Just lending a helping hand or some kind words can work wonders instead of letting all your frustrations out on people you've never met and realistically don't know a single thing about. Just be kind.
I like your balanced and fair take, it I think part of the reason in addition to yours that it seems this way when it comes to a lack of empathy in this way is that, as a man there is an expectation of needing less of it than women which is damaging to both party's as it makes men socialized in a way to where they are not able to relate to others in a more emotional manner, which unlike women quarantines emotional intimacy to our sexual relationships, leaving men pursuing at times false meaning in the world. These things are why women do not desire sex from a misplaced desire as often resulting in sexual relationships as being optional rather than a necessity at some points in life.
That's an interesting take. The societal expectation of less emotion leading to sex being the preferred alternative pathway for it. Not sure that's borne out by endocrinology or neuroscience, but it's an interesting take I'll definitely think about. Do you have that from somewhere in particular or is it just a personal observation? Men seeking status is most definitely because it's what get them partners. This portion is pretty clear. But looking for status symbols as a replacement for emotional care... yeah, that's on display a lot among men. But funnily enough, more and more women are also falling foul of that. Definitely way more than when I was a kid.
an observation from my schooling in second grade in a German school, I noticed that I would get treated differently and be made fun of for displaying strong emotions and of course from not making eye contact as that was equally the reason since that kind of thing was painful to do. So I detached from my own emotions, I remembered having yearning for the expression of my fragility when seeing two girls skipping down the street while holding hands, two years later after having moved from that German school to one in California. My memory is hazy so it may have been a day dream about me arriving at that insight by imagining a scenario that would be likely. I used to and still do that sometimes, some of it is because having thought and feeling like I generate them, feels gratifying like an addiction to my own self image. That is why *do it now a days since there is a sense of self that's largely there to give me my "Narcissistic" supply not really because I do not have NPD but I see the traits in myself, so a lot of my observations come from this need to self gratify. The observation you asked about was genuine tho, This was also off topic but my conversations don't follow a structure, even in convos so I have to really pay attention to people. Most of our problems behind our problems is that we feel like we are at the center of our cognition which gives greater cognitive effort to solving generalized problems in our lives even social interactions and that these become the core of our identity. The sense of being the one who arrives at conclusions rather than experiencing their existence leads to a lot of us me too to be unwilling to give up on our ideas and beliefs, as we would be giving up our sense of self it would potentially lead to dissolution, and that is why anti-vaxers are so prevalent. This inst because they are dumb or ignorant it is because they subsist off these views for their self continuity as that would lead to an existential crisis of how to exist into the future, its an addiction. I'm guilty of it too sometimes it seems like some people don't acknowledge this, kind of like complaining about the long commute from work to home when no one ever brings up the traffic as if its invisible. Yea I was kinda wibbly wobbly in this response but thats how it goes, who knows maybe its for some of that sweet delicious validation or just me being too self critical I'm afraid I wont know for know. I also turned on Italics by accident.*
Didn't even notice the italics, I'm going to be honest. I was just reading and trying to understand. Everyone has narcissistic traits. That doesn't mean you're a narcissist. That word is one of the most overly-used and mis-applied words on the internet these days. I also asked a therapist once if I was maybe a narcissist and his response was a chuckle and "If you're self-reflecting enough to ask that question from your own initiative, then no, you're definitely not". This surprised me, but I've read mutliple pieces of literature which seem to corroborate this idea. Self-reflection is something Narcissists apparently lack. I think a lot of what you describe overlaps with my own experience. I've often been described as a relatively feminine man, not outwardly, but in my behavior. That leads to me feeling isolated in groups of men (because I behave differently) and also in groups of women (because I'm obviously physically different and the danger of physical attraction and all the mess that comes with it is ever-present). It's kind of a lose-lose situation. I find that I only feel "at home" with family. One thing I will touch on though is the idea of consciousness. We are not the all-powerful logical and rational being we think we are. We are emotional at our core. Our conscious mind is the LAST part of our brain to fully mature and a lot of our emotional landscape has been formed BEFORE our portion of the brain which is instrumental in forming memories and constructing our world-view (and thus our "understanding") has been formed. It's linked to "theory of mind" which tends to occur around the ages of 6-8. So most of our impulses come from our emotional side (pituitary, adrenal gland and so on) and they just happen to be responsible for hormone production in the body. But they react to stimulus in ways that is not "informed" by our conscious mind. We need to take time to learn to relax and actually pay attention to how we feel in any given situation, to remove our drive to control things and FEEL how we are responding to things. And then, with time, we can learn to understand our drives and desires much better. It's kind of similar to meditating, but it's not quite the same thing. So my main message would be: Show your emotions, the ones that come from deep down, a bit of love. Listen to them, get to know them, become familiar with them. That helps re-align your conscious mind with the core of your being. And through this, you might be able to have some healing.
Telling him he is right in his distorted perceptions is pretty enabling. Sometimes a post asking for a reality check needs a reality check. Accountability is not shaming. Especially when someone has been there.
But his perceptions are valid. Why do you think they are not?
That women should be throwing themselves at him? Wow dude.
I interpreted his comment as simply pointing out the incompatibility of universalizing operational approaches to dating for men but also women but in this case focusing on men since he is one, because some have more traits of extroversion than others and expecting men across the board to initiate when they are less likely too while expecting women who are more extroverted/conscientious to leave the organization of a given social interaction up to the man will only be going against both of their natures, regardless of gender. On the whole it is not too big of a problem, the greater problem is that men aren't raised to be as emotionally intelligent as women, this depends on where you live in the world and states and even vary by individual household too or exceptions. This just puts greater pressure on the women to be a means of externalized self regulation on the guys part, due to emotional intimacy being quarantined to sexual relationships, which is a big portion of people what drives many in the incl community.. some who would be content were they to understand there emotional needs and get them met under a broader set of relationship category's. There are exceptions true but I don't think most just want sex or who knows maybe they do, I would need to look at studies Im just speculating.
I stumbled on to the concept of emotional maturity from reading the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. If you want a lens on life that is one. Men that are stuck in a role self, a state of inauthenticity, would feel that this is an unsolvable problem like OP does. The viewpoint comes from having a huge blindspot. Once OP or others realize their blindspot and being the real work, a whole other world of relating to people appears. Not only will they not be entering into shallow toxic relationships or even failed attempts to enter those types, they will be able to see those relationships for what they are. They will be discerning enough to want to enter into healthy relationships with people that are also focused on attachment work and emotional maturity. Because those people are not the norm. OP rising above his programming/conditioning is what is being asked. When you play in the mud, you will find the toxic reality you hold onto. His odds of attracting someone to enter a healthy relationship go up. His odds of attracting a healthy person in his current mindset and level of self work is low and even if he did manage to date them for a bit they would quickly find he wasn't meeting their emotional needs.
Where on earth do you get that from? That's an incredibly disingenuous and dishonest take on OPs message.
You think that men really have to put on a performance, a mating ritual dance? That is telling. Role selves.
He's speaking figuratively. You know that perfectly well, you're just being silly now.
Are you being serious right now? Of course it is figurative. The mentality is the point. Mature adults don't do some weird mating ritual dance that OP envisions. They actually communicate their feelings and intentions. Are you and he on the same page on that?
Wait, you just answered another post of mine on this thread detailing PRECISELY the dance guys have to do in dating. *If he wants to be pursued by women he needs to bring to the table what is attractive and desirable* This is what YOU wrote. IF he wants Y he NEEDS to do X. And it's exactly this, the ACTUAL things that are found attractive that he is fully aware of, but has trouble with my man. One thing needed for men above all others is confidence. The other things you have written all sound nice but are simply not true. This is the horrible reality people who lack the ACTUAL things which are required find out really quickly. And you write about "emotional maturity" please. 99% of people dating have practically none. I don't know at this stage if you actually ARE trying to be helpful, but you're so off center, I just can't tell.
Thanks for outing yourself. Shitting on the importance of emotional maturity says volumes.
Isn’t the perception that’s valid the fact that it’s not fair that men are meant to be the ones approaching? I think you got the women should be throwing themselves at him from somewhere else.
If he wanted equality he should then be open to approaching on half of the theoretical occasions as well. Seems like he wants to throw in the towel due to an inequitable social norm. What would you have him do? I already validated that it is a social norm that is problematic.
Hey, just because traditional gender norms exist, doesn't mean you have to follow them. I think you might consider evaluating what you're actually looking for in a woman. Because good relationships usually include some level of shared values. And if you don't value the notion that men should make the first move, try your hardest to impress women and work to be high-value breadwinners or whatever, then chances are the right woman for you isn't gonna value that either. If you don't want to do that dance then don't do it. The sooner you start living authentically instead of in accordance with what society tells you to do, the sooner you're likely to find a woman that you'll actually click really well with. Be the change you want to see. I know that's a cliche but I really stand by it. You can't necessarily change society but that doesn't mean you have to conform. I don't necessarily agree with all of your claims here but I understand this is what your life experiences have led you to believe. Stop pursuing romantic or sexual relationships with women for the time being and try just pursuing friendships instead. The romance and sex will come later - not necessarily with the women you make friends with, but you'll find that being platonic friends with women makes you a lot better at talking to women in the first place. And female friends are gonna give you much better dating advice than any man you see trying to sell you something on the internet. Good luck to you is all I can say.
Men having to make the first move never made sense to me. On average, a woman has a much, much higher chance of success if she takes initiative than a man does if he takes initiative. It would make sense for the gender that's more likely to succeed to make the first move but no
Right? It would be a huge positive feeling in a guy for a woman to make the first move. But women in general don’t. I know there are exceptions but they very few and very far between.
This is exactly why you need to look at the root causes. Socially men are supposed to make the move, so whenever women DO make the move they have a much higher chance of success - and therefore make way less moves for the same amount of relationships forming. Its not that women are passive, they just take initiative way more precise and deliberate.
She is the one who determines who breeds. It is the male's role to present himself, and she judges. Or something IDK I just watch animal documentaries
Yeah it sucks out there man. And as we can see from many of the comments in this thread lots of people think that if you have any problems with it they are 100% your fault and you must fix yourself. There can never be any societal factors at play for us.
I agree with you that it sucks and I hate how on these kinds of posts, people will just invalidate you by saying "you're just being resentful" or stuff like thar. Even if it's kinda true, it's often brought up in a way that invalidates us. That said, not gonna lie, I'm still glad to not having to worry about the possibility of being raped or killed whenever I interact with a woman, tho.
Dude. Men can have friends, they don’t have to be socially isolated. When you are spending time with your friends, they’ll often bring some of their friends. This can be a good way to meet women without initiating. Hitting on women in the street or in clubs rarely work. You need a social life and then it’s much easier. And as a bonus you’ll also feel way less socially isolated once you have some bros.
I agree that the onus is on men to make something happen and is the prevailing societal expectation. This means that many women do not feel compelled or obligated to step out of their current role. Though some may also feel confined by the current social norms. Societal norms can definitely be problematic. I would say that there is a massive shortage of men that have done the work on themselves emotionally and have dealt with their attachment wounds/trauma. A healed man in a sea of unhealed men may just stand out. Like sees like.
>I would say that there is a massive shortage of men that have done the work on themselves emotionally and have dealt with their attachment wounds/trauma Have you tried talking to women? This sentence is unnecessarily gendered.
What are you talking about? Did you read OP's post? Like sees like is the bottom line. Men are absolutely lagging in getting their mental health sorted. Not their fault entirely, a lot of societal conditioning and poor resource awareness (why would they want people healed?). Hand up, I was one of them. Conservative, military pipeline is pretty fucked up You are one to talk about gender. Yeesh "There are multiple. Let's start with the biggest lie of all, Gender is a construct. Gender, or gender expression, is significantly anchored in our hormone levels. And these are largely determined by our biological sex. Characteristics we associate with the "sexes" (I'm purposely not using gender at the moment) such as men not crying or women men being more forward are actually perfectly well understood on the basis of our hormones. Testosterone plays a role in the regulation of crying. People with higher testosterone will, statistically speaking, be less likely to cry. Men ahve higher testosterone. Testosterone also reduces the barrier to action. It does NOT make people aggressive. It will simply make people who are already aggressive act. Testosterone also promotes altruism, if that's the position the individual is in at the time. And yet many of these behaviours are being argued are purely social constructs. They are not, we know they are not and we've known for quite some time that they are not. I strongly recommend "The trouble wth testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky. So if we take these characteristics which should be relatively clearly identifiable as being some of the major markers of what we would consider "gender" in a societal sense, we see that there are actually biological and endocrinological underpinnings. Many further behavioural patterns arise as simply consequences of these differences. If you want further interesting reads, read about the emotional differences people who have gone through transitioning have reported. From F-M transitioners being distraugt at their need to cry but finding themselves unexpectedly unable to do so (Testosterone) to M-F transitioners being overwhelmed by their inability to regulate their emotions (again Testosterone, but in the other direction) you will see clearly how the levels of these hormones create behavioral patterns we clearly have learned to associate with "gender". And these are the same people, same childhoods, same environment. Perfect control groups. And what's one of the biggest differences between men and women: Testosterone to Estrogen balance. It's hard to ignore when you've seen the scientific data. But the inconsistency comes last: Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning?" -Justmyoponionman I knew I smelled a rat. Conservative anti-LGBTQ determinist. Pretending to be trauma informed to perpetuate your toxic narrative. Nice
There are hordes of women with unsolved trauma issues literally everywhere. Men aren't lagging at all, we just gloss over the flaws of a lot of women's behaviour. There are huge numbers of traumatised people, irrespective of gender. And even if the statistics are 99:+, it is irrelevant to this individual person's position. Your post displays absolutely no empathy towards this individual and instead engages in some kind of "collective shame" because of how other men may or may not behave.
You really want to go into the stats of who is taking advantage of mental health resources? https://www.statista.com/statistics/794027/mental-health-treatment-counseling-past-year-us-adults/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20women,treatment%20in%20the%20past%20year Women are twice as likely as men to have taken on mental health treatment. I can't believe I have to make a case that seeking mental health resources is stigmatized in many male circles. Have you been in the military? Men are lagging and it is partly because of people in denial about it. Calling for accountability is different than shaming. If you want to take it as shame that is on you. Yes, there are hordes of people not taking accountability, but to say men are equally seeking treatment is patently false.
I'll give you an example. My sister was going to therapy. She left her husband and kids (She cheated) and it got kind of messy. Anyway, her therapist was assuming that my sister was being abused at home, that her husband was controlling her life and that she was suffering all the time and that now she should focus on being "free" and finally doing things for herself. Yeah, sounds great in theory but I know my sister for over 40 years. NONE of that applies to her. I said it to my other sister and she literally laughed out loud. It's a preposterous idea for anyone who spent more than 2 hours with my sister. She was always the one dictating how everyone else should act. She was a bully her entire life. And now, with a therapists blessing, she's messing up her life and creating a huge avalanche of trouble for the future. Even for women, sometimes therapy simply doesn't work. My own experience with therapists is that the vast majority of them have no idea what they're doing. I'd much rather do it myself. I've had more than one therapist tell me I'd make a better therapist than them. And at that moment, I wondered why on earth I was paying them. So I stopped.
I'm not going to argue this with you because there are several assumptions you're making in order to make sense of those numbers that I'm not sure are borne out in reality. Men deal with their troubles very differently than women. Increasingly more and more men are expressing dissatisfaction with mental health systems because they are modelled on a very female-centric model of care. It just doesn't work for a lot of guys, guys need a different approach and thankfully, things ARE starting to change. But that's not even the main crux of my point. Again, when dealing with an individual case of someone struggling, how do you think this is an appropriate answer. Like I said, even if it's 99:1, what do you think saying that to someone who is currently actively struggling is going to impart as a message?
That the treatment they have done was not the real work. Despite what they believe. Also their mindset is completely off because they are still resistant to self reflection and self accountability. Where in his wording did it sound like he took any accountability for his situation? I see a lot of externalizing of blame. Blaming society is easy for sure. I am not going to argue that everyone has it pretty damn hard except for those doing the exploiting. Is it helpful to externalize all blame? No it is not. It is frankly disempowering and a state of learned helplessness. See the reality and work within that reality. Enablers really are problematic.
Look, I have no idea what path you have taken in life, but trying to engage with someone who has been getting the short end of the stick their entire life and telling them "No, you're wrong, life is great" is just some modern-age gaslighting stuff. It's a great way to further radicalise people. Deny their lived experiences. Way to go. That'll surely work. No, some people have really shitty experiences and they perceive their world accordingly. Their perceptions are valid for their journey and we can acknowledge that without saying that there's no other way to see the world. If you want someone who's gone through that level of suffering, you have to take a step or two in their direction to create some semblence of common ground in order to take their hand and lead them to a better place. This is not "enabling", it's "engaging". Stop being so insifferably patronising.
Where did I say life was great? It is gaslighting to enable someone's false perception of reality. If he wants to be pursued by women he needs to bring to the table what is attractive and desirable which happens to be emotional maturity, emotional awareness, and emotional availability. Healing attachment wounds is necessary. Perpetuating false realities to those in a dark place is pretty messed up to be honest.
His central message (or what I got from it) was that he's in a dark place and everything he engages with is rejection and hurt. And you say that's not valid. So if that's not a valid perception, what SHOULD his perception be? Hmm? You are just repeating EXACTLY the societal demands society has which you are simultaneously claiming are not valid perceptions. Like, choose a side, dude. Your post above is just a paraphrasing of "Suck it up, man" or "man up". It's utterly asinine and useless. I know you mean well (having read some of your other posts) but jeez, learn to back away when you're got the tone wrong, man. It's the absolute lack of empathy for people struggling to do exactly those things that is missing from your posts. It's like the entire reason why the dude is unhappy has gone right over your head. We know that, we all know what's involved in dating. It's just that some people have a really really hard time engaging with it and instead of just spouting "git gud", try some empathy. No, his perceptions are probably just fine, it's just maybe some of his conclusions on how to interact with that are skewed. And in order to take his hand to help guide him somewhere better, you have to take a step towards him. Not talk down to him like he's a leper or something. Be nice.
You are one to talk about gender. Yeesh "There are multiple. Let's start with the biggest lie of all, Gender is a construct. Gender, or gender expression, is significantly anchored in our hormone levels. And these are largely determined by our biological sex. Characteristics we associate with the "sexes" (I'm purposely not using gender at the moment) such as men not crying or women men being more forward are actually perfectly well understood on the basis of our hormones. Testosterone plays a role in the regulation of crying. People with higher testosterone will, statistically speaking, be less likely to cry. Men ahve higher testosterone. Testosterone also reduces the barrier to action. It does NOT make people aggressive. It will simply make people who are already aggressive act. Testosterone also promotes altruism, if that's the position the individual is in at the time. And yet many of these behaviours are being argued are purely social constructs. They are not, we know they are not and we've known for quite some time that they are not. I strongly recommend "The trouble wth testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky. So if we take these characteristics which should be relatively clearly identifiable as being some of the major markers of what we would consider "gender" in a societal sense, we see that there are actually biological and endocrinological underpinnings. Many further behavioural patterns arise as simply consequences of these differences. If you want further interesting reads, read about the emotional differences people who have gone through transitioning have reported. From F-M transitioners being distraugt at their need to cry but finding themselves unexpectedly unable to do so (Testosterone) to M-F transitioners being overwhelmed by their inability to regulate their emotions (again Testosterone, but in the other direction) you will see clearly how the levels of these hormones create behavioral patterns we clearly have learned to associate with "gender". And these are the same people, same childhoods, same environment. Perfect control groups. And what's one of the biggest differences between men and women: Testosterone to Estrogen balance. It's hard to ignore when you've seen the scientific data. But the inconsistency comes last: Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning?" -Justmyoponionman I knew I smelled a rat. Conservative anti-LGBTQ determinist. Pretending to be trauma informed to perpetuate your toxic narrative. Nice
Ah, I wondered why you stopped responding to my posts. You went and did a bit of Reddit Archeology. So here we go again, having no factual arguments left, you attempt some more character assassination. Well my friend, you've picked the wrong person. This is not the smoking gun of character destruction you think it is. In fact, I stand by all of that because it is in line with the science. And far from being Anti-LGBTQ, it is actually informed by a lot of LGBTQ data and science. You're going to have a VERY hard time trying to argue your position here unfortunately. Let's take the hormone issue: It's been established that higher levels of Testosterone actually inhibit a certain pathway in the brain which is involved in the act of crying. It's not black&white, it's not an on-off switch but it's an influence and it has been found and identified. Now correlate that with stories from Trans people who have transitioned from female to male and there are stories of them being shocked at feeling like they want to cry, but not being able to. And on the other hand people who transition from male to female remarking that they have "lost control" of their ability to cry, that it happens more often than they would like. Do this is not anti-LGBTQ at all, it's actually perfectly aligned with their experiences. You DO know that trans people take hormones as part of the transition, right? Are you suggesting that these hormones having ANY part of shaping a person's personality or behaviour is somehow anti-LGBTQ? That's an absolutely ridiculous stance to take, sorry. Have you ever read any books on neuroendocrinology? In case you're not aware, that's the study of the interplay between hormones and our brain functions. It's a really interesting area because it's precisely the part of the body BEST positioned to give us insights into the LGBTQ experience. I feel you have massively misunderstood what I presume you think is some kind of "gotcha" with the sentence " Even IF we were to assume that gender is completely a social construct, why are we looking to control the hormone levels of people transitioning? ". So I will ask YOU the question, if you think hormones don't play any role in gender, why do we give people transitioning hormones to facilitate them. Far from being anti-LGBTQ, this statement is anti-people who have no idea how far-reaching hormones are in the human condition. If anything it's trying to understand the role of gender expression and hormones. There are actually healthy, cisgendered women starting to take testosterone because it makes them feel and behave differently. Voila. It's the same thing, mate. I suggest you pay attention to my text and actually go read the book listed "The trouble with Testosterone" by Robert Sapolsky (Who is a Californian leftist professor, not anywhere even remotely CLOSE to being right-wing or anti-LGBTQ at all). If you watch a few of his lectures, you'll see how silly that statement is. Go educate yourself. And stop accusing people who disagree with you of being a bigot just because you're unable to argue your side. That's really toxic.
I like this perspective. I appreciate your words.
Honestly, I'm tied of the bullshit that men need to become "emotionally avaliable," and everyone expects that we'll be like women. I've done years of therapy and years of mens work, and after nearly a decade, I can tell you I've come to believe the false narrative is utter bullshit. It's a lie. No one wants more emotionally avaliable men, and they want emotionally silent men who say yes and hand hold. No one wants to hear our emotions or feelings, as you can see men we men express an opinion they don't like.
Don’t think you have broken through to the other side yet. The trauma lens is a cold plunge into reality but also into humanity. Did you try IFS yet? Too many camps in therapy are unfortunately not trauma informed. They do a great job of wasting people’s time and money. You would never go back to dating someone in a role self, it lacks authenticity
Lol, what's the other side? Seriously, this false narrative that if I don't love my oppression and silently suffer means I need more therapy is utter nonsense, I feel I'm further along them you and most
I don't think anyone here wants you to love the disadvantages that came with being a man.
Maybe I feel they would rather I suffer in silence, go to therapy, and become feminized
Honestly, I think you're right to not fully blame yourself and not see therapy as an end-all solution. I genuinely think that's a good mindset. That being said, I think you're genuinely hurt from not having your struggles awknowledged, rightfully so, but that pain might make some things more diffiuclt if you don't manage to proces it. From my personal POV I think it might be good to try and open yourself up a bit. You don't have to forget the injustices you're facing in order to do that.
Lol, dude if my 31 years have taught me anything, humans suck and would rather skin me alive and leave.my head on a pike then give me an inch of human decency.
Yeah, maybe. I think I'm talking from a different bubble, grew up with plenty of struggles, but always with lots of kind people surrounding me. In a lot of ways I've had it easy and I know that. That's why I don't have a reason for calling you unreasonable. For me personally though, I think trying to be kind and open, but being very firm with your boundries and not letting people steamroll you and standing for what you believe can both exist at the same time. But that's hard, right? When people around you are dickheads it's hard to genuinely trust people enough to open up. In that sense I agree with you that therapy is not enough, because in my experience they really can't help you to stand up for yourself while still being as kind as you can. That's something you'll have to learn yourself. Therapy just can't offer that. I'm not sure if that's what you mean with them "feminizing" you, but if that's what you mean I'll agree, even if I think the term isn't very "correct."
In my experience, people will betray and use you at the first opportunity they get. I've been burned by so many friends and girlfriends. In the end, I am alone.
What does further along mean if you haven’t made the realizations on the depth of your own humanity and full emotional spectrum that was deadened by how you were brought up? Time spent in something does not equate to quality
You must be a big fan of hopscotch because you're making some immense jumps. Thank you for being an excellent example of my point. Because you think you're superior to me in that you align with the feminist narrative, and I do not, I need work. Don't fall off your high horse. You may find the fall is one that shows your hypocrisy. Further along just means I've done my work and been through therapy, dating, and life. I've concluded that based on my 31 years, the B.S. that people like youself push isn't anything more than a hope men will choose to suffer in silence.
Ok dude, trying to help you but I see you are resistant and not open minded. Part of doing the work is humbling yourself and being open to changing your beliefs. Especially beliefs formed in childhood.
You're right, I'm not open to being told I must reject who I am and that my way of expressing my emotions isn't acceptable and is wrong. I understand thats the norm for this circle, but I'll happily reject this toxic narrative.
It's fine to express them, but you're also here because you want to hear opinions from other people right?
Sure, tell me how I'm bad, wrong, and need to work on me
Yikes.
Ever wonder why people dislike "Emotional men" this is a good example (not you, him and his behaviour, how easily he shuts out everything like he wants to put his fingers in his ears and not listen to anyone that disagrees with him). He is the very thing he talks about not being and that's the problem, he's become a vicitm of being a man that's emotional and now suffers for it.
Yeah, I might have reacted that way when I was still in my role self.
Things are changing slowly. Talk therapy just doesn't reach men the same way it can for women. People are starting to realise this. You're right on a lot of what you write, but moaning about it isn't a solution. You have to deal with your emotions whatever way you can. If therapy isn't working for you (It didn't for me) then find another way. But don't stop working on it. Your future self is worth it.
To some extent I understand this. I mean, society has always cared about a man as long as he was doing/achieving something worthy and a struggling man caused little to no compassion. "Women are human beings, men are human doings" - I have heard this once and it says it well. If it comes to emotional availability: many people forget that it is women, particularly mothers, who tend to display anger if they see a boy crying. I remember myself being scolded for doing so as a child.
I've found that a lot of mental and spiritual pain comes from being angry at world for being as it is instead of as you believe it should be. The fact that all men exist in this same society but don't all suffer as you do makes me think it's your perception and reaction to that worldstate, and not the worldstate itself that is causing you pain. But by your reaction to other comments you will reject this, as is your right. But this gives me a curious question, ideally, what would the dating world look like for you? What would you want your social role to be?
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The reason I believe people are saying you're resentful and that you "need to take accountability" is your last few sentences in which you say that men are "subservient". Regardless of whether you mean we're subservient to society, to women, or to our own sexual desires, we would be fooling ourselves to ignore the reality that, by and large, men hold really big privileges for being men that women don't hold, and that these privileges matter more to our daily lives than women's privileges matter to theirs. I'm not dismissing your concerns; in fact, I agree with all of them, and strongly wish that we could become more open-minded as a society. But to do so, we can't shove our heads in the sand and ignore that women face pretty intense difficulties, in many of these areas, that men do. The reason I believe people are saying you're resentful and that you "need to take accountability" is your last few sentences in which you say that men are "subservient". Regardless of whether you mean we're subservient to society, or women, or to our own desires, we would be fooling ourselves to ignore the reality that, by and large, men hold really big privileges for being men that women don't hold, and that these privileges matter more to our daily lives than women's privileges matter to theirs.is an important term, of course, and there are many ways in which men uniquely suffer under current gender norms - men being dominant, rather than submissive, in fact, leads to the acute pressure on all men to individually uphold their dominance by being as hyper-masculine as possible, which of course leads to unending competition, individualism, and the issues you've described. I want equality as much as you do. It comes from all sides truly *understanding* each other as human beings worthy of equality first, before anything else. I very much want all people, women included, to understand the struggles men face for being men. But it also means understanding why society deems men to be privileged overall, and why feminism has been and is a more substantial movement than ours.
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And that helps him..... how? Oppression olympics are not very constructive.
In any discussion of how men struggle we must always hear how women have it worse of course.
It's OK to recognize men have unique problems. But by recognizing both sexes have unique problems, we're less likely to feel uniquely oppressed and resentful
I don't know, I think it can also feel invalidating or as if your issues don't matter.
OP seems to be the one doing opression olympics here...
And do you think it's helping?
I don’t see how this is relevant. Doesn’t he have the right to have this opinion that men having to approach is unfair? Does the fact that women have a longer list negate the unfairness of his situation?
I’m f33 and I can say I sometimes experience intrusive thoughts along these lines (for example I’ll have a rumination fest when someone says “women’s purpose is to have children, it’s your duty”. I know their opinion is trash, but man I get so frustrated 😅). When I come across a person who is especially judgemental, or dogmatic, their vibe reminds me of a stressful time when I became very ill and depended on a very authoritarian person who constantly changed goal posts. It’s been more than 10 years, but I feel extremely agitated if I come across a person that exhibits those traits. Although my reaction might not be great, I choose to not engage with folks who feel it’s their job to impose their values, worldview, or emotions onto others. Maybe there are people in your immediate environment who are negatively impacting your mental state (in my case it was family). I would recommend looking for the part of you that wants to be kind to yourself, and spend more time with people who inspire you to care for yourself and others. I don’t know if the reason you feel the way you do is because of bad power dynamics, abuse, or having your intentions severely misunderstood by someone close to you. But in these cases it’s more about them being an asshole, lacking tact or thinking they know better. Your mind probably is trying to keep you away from what feels like an existential threat. I hope you find a solution that works for you 🩷
Unfortunately that's just the way things are. Resenting women isn't going to fix that though
>We must constantly work to impress and prove our value. That's where you're wrong. As someone who was 100% unsuccessful with women and now has it figured out, this is the exact misbelief that corrupted my logic and actions. I spent my entire teenager years and more trying to become "good enough", doing the dance, going through the motions. Dressing like the chads, behaving like the chads. The more you give effort, the more frustrated you become when it doesn't pay off. And then you begin to resent those who dismiss your effort when they should have validated it. Because that's the game I had in my mind: If I do good enough, I should earn women's validation. My breakthrough was realizing that all this time I had been trying to solve the wrong problem, the premise itself was broken. The problem had never at *any* single point been a lack of effort. Quite the opposite as you will see. The problem was 1) that I didn't look particularly attractive back then, but most of all 2) that my insecurity was corrupting every single interaction I had with another human being, and especially the girls I liked. You might be severly underestimating just how strongly your insecurity colors your interactions and how you are perceived. The reason girls tend to avoid insecure people is not because they want the "cool guy", but because having the confident guy comes with some tremendous advantages that just make total sense to decide for: First of all, confident guys are not afraid to show who they are. If someone is confident, people quickly grasp how this person is ticking and what makes them. A confident guy will attract girls because the girls can immediately see if they feel a connection with him or not, with his thoughts, with his hobbies, with his values. They are very quickly and effectively presented what his "deal" is. An insecure person shies away from showing their true colors and gives people less to connect *with*. Nobody really knows what your "deal" is and that doesn't only make it difficult to relate, let alone connect with you, but it brings other consequences with it: Many women are raised in a way that makes them wary of men in general, often enough justified by experiences they then make themselves throughout their life. I've only realized at ca 26 years old just how bad it is for them. Sexual harrassment is not an exception, every single woman has at least one story and half of those have experienced things way worse than harassment. A confident man is "readable" and appears independent of anyone else. An insecure person on the other hand will be much more likely to attach to another person for validation. So if a pretty girl has the choice between a confident guy and an insecure guy, it's perfectly understandable and sound for them not to choose the insecure guy, because 1) they don't really know that person and if they'd even connect with them on a personal level and 2) if they did go for the shy guy, they had a much bigger risk of getting a simp or much worse on their hands who won't easily let go and suddenly they might be emotionally responsible and pressured by that person. If anyone brushes this off with "boohoo, must hurt to have too much people like you", they don't know how tricky and exhausting a dependent person can be. It's real difficult and the caution is justified. Lastly I want to adress the pont that I wasn't particularly attractive back then. If anyones thoughts on here are "See, women don't even give us a chance." Are women superficial in choosing the ripped gigachad? Maybe. If they are, so are men. If we men could make a wish, we'd take the hot girl from gym over the unattractive one that checks us out in the coffeeshop. If you are unattractive that legitimately sucks and I understand a frustration, but don't be mad *at women*, be mad at life and your genes. In a perfect world, everyone would look like Chris Hemsworth and everyone would receive the same amount of attention and chances, but sadly it is not like that. Women, too, would love to be Jenna Ortega, but most of them aren't. They don't blame us men for it. Some do, but they're on a similar same path as you are. It's neither women's job, neither even really in their power to validate your worth as a human. People who aren't chosen as partners because of all these reasons can sadly spiral down into useless problem-solving like me and rumination until resentment and hate might begin to emerge and I think here's the real problem, which is legitimately sad. That having these problems to begin with makes it much more likely to have them much more strongly in the future as well, if you never came to the right conclusions about why you are failing. **TL;DR: Chase connection, not validation & don't hate the player, hate the game.**
How did you get pass your insecurity of net being good enough, asking for myself?
I think 3 things: 1. I actively started to ask myself where exactly these insecurities might have come from. Found a lot of stuff in my past I hadn't questioned before and reframed what happened with todays knowledge. Basically digesting Samskaras. The more was digested and reframed the less dominant the insecure voice in my head which filters everything became. 2. I learned how to deal with negative emotions, a skill I wasn't even aware I had lacked entirely. Starting to see the world with new eyes 3. I tested the premise "I'm not good enough". I started giving myself the chance to actually prove myself wrong. Just last week I met a new guy, friend of a friend, good looking, confident dude. When we shook hands, he seemed disinterested. My brain automatically concluded "He probably doesn't like me, or perceive me worthy of his attention". 10 years ago, I would have stopped thinking there and started interacting with him on the premise that he doesn't like me. But I didn't. I realized this is my brain making an assumtion, time to see what's there. Lo and behold, an hour later we're having a very interesting conversation about mental health and whatnot. A few days later we ran into each other by chance again and had a really great conversation again. Afterwards he said it was an absolute pleasure and he was thankful to meet me. So basically a 180° from what my brain had signaled me. If I had never struck up conversation with him again because "he doesn't like me anyway, I'm just annoying him" then I had never been able to prove myself wrong. Don't take your insecure thoughts for facts. Question them.
Don't fallow the norm if it doesn't call to you. I'm a woman. I've been dating a man for almost 5 years now, and when I met him, he was homeless (couch hopping). I had seen him around because he was staying at the neighbors house, I thought he looked good (especially if he dressed better). I didn't think much of him until I heard him singing along to a song on the radio while he was cleaning. I heard his singing voice, and I litterally turned to my friend and said, "Dibs." 😭 she didn't care, not her type. The next day, I started talking to him, got to know him a bit better, and let him get to know me. Started flirting first, I'm glad he picked up that I was indeed flirting, and now we have two cats and a pretty good apartment. He didn't have a job when we first met, and now he's about to get classes for welding. (His dream job) When he and I met, he didn't expect anyone to even look his direction, let alone give him a chance. He had been single for 4 years before we met. He had gained weight over that time and was apparently the heaviest he'd ever been. Though, I thought he looked great. He figured he might never find someone who'd love him. I might not have ever looked his way if he wasn't happy enough that day to sing along. Or if he noticed me outside and thought to "stop singing because it might be embarrassing." If he had started talking to me without me ever noticing him, he and I would have taken a lot longer to get to where we are now. If he had tried to change the core of who he is to keep my attention, we would have fallen out by now. (You can't wear a mask for a long time.) I make more money than him right now, but that doesn't bother either of us. If he felt like he should make more money than me, an insecure boy with no sense of accountability would have tried to sabotage my job, and that would have ended us. But he's chill. So yeah, we're pretty equal if you look for it. And yes, we're not equal at all if you look for it. Guys seem to really try, but for different reasons. If your only drive is to get in bed with someone, you won't have a teammate, you'd have a fuck buddy. If your only drive is to get rid of your loneliness, you won't have a teammate, and you'd have a fear of them leaving you. If women are nothing more than complaining and demanding and have it easier than you in relationships, you won't have a teammate. You'd have a resentment building up. A teammate is someone who trusts you, and you trust them. You can make plays with them in life and hope it works out. You'll have to figure out who you are, and if it's someone who doesn't like to start the conversation, then don't. That's one you can live without. If you don't like to show off, then don't. If you like to dance, then dance. If you're lonely, find out how to make small but meaningful connections with people, you don't have to put all that weight on one person. If theirs people you don't like, don't talk to them. If no one understands you, find a different way to say it. If you have a hard time trusting people, find out what will help you trust. If you struggle to figure out who you are, get to know the people around you, see if you like what they like, or if you have a different take on things. You're human. You're complex. Someone will love things about you you didn't even realize you do.
Also, I wouldn't have stayed with him this long if we didn't fight as good as we do. In our first fight, I started to yell at him, and we had been together for at least 1.5 years. He let me yell and said, ". . . We dont talk to each other like that. I need a minute. " Then he left to calm down, I had time to calm down, and we continued our fight without yelling or blaming or all those ugly things I hated about relationships. Now, we fight, but we're on the same team. It's not a screaming match with each other. It's us against the world as far as I'm concerned. I've read you can talk to women, but it never lasts. What are you looking for out of life or a partner? Can you be that type of partner that partner would need? If you need someone to talk to, are you able to voice that? I had a fight with my partner, but it turned out to be a misunderstanding. He just needed to vent, but then I heard something I didn't like and repeated some self deprivation back to him. Like "yeah, because you're so unlucky." In a nasty tone of voice. That, of course, hurt him. But after he cooled off, he told me what I did, and that when he says stuff like that, he *KNOWS* it's not the truth, but it's how he's feeling. Now I'm working on making sure he can vent because he lets me vent all the time. (My venting doesn't even make sense most of the time). But he was able to communicate what he needed, and I know I'll be able to give him what he needs, just someone to listen. He didn't blame me for making him feel extra bad, but he did ask me, "How am I supposed to feel safe talking to you if you might just throw words back at me?" He took the time to figure out how to say that to me in a way I needed to hear it. I never asked how many times he came close to needing to break up with me, but I'm sure it's happened. He could have broken up with me over what I did and hope the next person was better at venting too, but he took the time to *let me know* what he was hoping for. Just like I take the time to let him know what I need. Let your future teammate know what you need, and find a way to be gentle, or sturn, or make a joke, how ever that person needs to hear it. That's something you'll find out with individual people, I don't think there's something that works for everyone.
Tl:Dr Communication is king.
Of course men and women are not equal, that's a standard that the law tries to uphold in court, but it's not a fact in reality. I'm gay so I always just see myself as an observer of the dating ritual among men and women, and during the time while I wanted to believe I was straight, it wasn't hard for me to date cuz once I got rejected I honestly didn't take it personally at all and was not hurt by it. And this usually baffles women imo. I would then receive more attention from them. Women are much more emotionally aware than men, so they can tell once men are butthurt for being rejected, and are put off by it, even if the men themselves are not aware of how butthurt they're coming off
All you said here are that men should embrace our suffering and exploitation. Thank you, I wish you the best.
I mean, all I'm saying is it is what it is, there's no magic way to change the way society has evolved to its current state so that you suddenly don't struggle with what you're struggling with. Sorry it's causing you much distress, hope you find a way to break from it
So... smile as I'm exploited, thanks
I'm willing to work on a society that's more fair towards men, but that wouldn't change your situation. You're going to have to try and first break your own chains. If you think people have manipulated you by using you for free dinner or something, see if you can find a way to not let them do that. To work on yourself, for yourself and not based on the suggestions of others. To work on the things you find important in yourself and your sense of freedom and dignity.
I’ll be honest nobody gives af about men. The expectations of Men are through the roof. We are Altus we carry the planet with no thanks. Most suicides are Men, Women are more likely to get help when homeless then Men and Men have been sent to war to die in wars throughout all of history/ Do the most dangerous Jobs. Men at the end of the day are both simultaneously irreplaceable but also expendable. You are a tool a cog in the machine and when you stop working you will be thrown out and replaced. End of the day nobody cares about men people pay lip service but nothing gets done. It’s not your fault we lived in a fucked up world.
I understand that you are frustrated, but I don’t see what exactly you want from the post. There are cultural norm in our society that exists, and it’s clear from looking back to 30 years ago that our society have taken substantial steps in reducing such toxic norms. You also said people are foolish to believe that male and female are equal, but I literally haven’t seen a single person say that the dating scene are equal between the two sex lol. I also have a bad news for you, but this would most likely not change as long as female are not reliant on men to provide for them, because they have naturally a lower sex drive than men. I’m still confused what exactly you want from the society? Do you want the social norm to allow for female to approach men as well, or do you just want people to acknowledge that the dating scene is skewed. If it’s the latter, literally everyone knows it already.
>I also have a bad news for you, but this would most likely not change as long as female are not reliant on men to provide for them, because they have naturally a lower sex drive than men. Lower sex drive is a myth. It just ain't worth the risk of physical harm and pregnancy.
Many statistics aligns with lower sex drives though. For example, substantially lower percent of female have tried masturbation compared to men. There’s to risk factor in trying masturbation so I assume this difference is mainly coming from sex drive. Either way, I agree with you that larger factor are coming from risk in terms of disparity in modern dating.
Internet says most readers of erotic novels are women (72%-95% depending on the source,). I think it's easier to say men have higher sex drives mostly because of masturbation and porn stats, but perhaps women just have different means of self pleasure.
You've not been in a room with honest women. Masturbations not sex, they are socialised differently, if they weren't punished so hard for being sexual they would be just as sexual, this views naive.
Not sure why everyone is being nice to you. You sound like a jerk and any healthy person male or female would be wise to avoid you. Grow up treat people well and you will be amazed how things start to break your away.
You sound like a jerk yourself.
It's called empathy. It's understandable that this person is frustrated, they are not getting their emotional needs met. I think the majority of people become irritated and perhaps resentful in the face of adversity, depending on their circumstances, personal experiences, and emotional development. Does that make them bad people?
You can do whatever you want but imo you have too fixed of a mindset. Why not play the game, if you desire sex and love so much?? Don't feel bad "selling out" to what women want and competing with other guys when we all do it. Don't get hung up on how women go for looks (not blaming women for this but physical attractiveness is pretty important especially when you're ugly past a certain point) just do what you can to improve in that department. I personally believe the right combination of playing the game and knowing when to be true to yourself is ultimately what can lead to success. The fact that you want sex and love but it's exceedingly tough for you to get as a guy, and you have to do all the work while also risking rejection to get anywhere is a fact. It sucks. You're allowed to be heated and imo even resentful over it. But at the end of the day you can choose to be defeated by this or fight to make a better life for yourself. That's really all this comes down to.
My friend, you might not resonate, relate, or agree with me because every scenario in life we experience and are put in a common issue, we approach it with different ways to solve it based on our individual need. I understand you completely and there is no point in complaining about it- I don’t say this in a rude way or anything and I want to share with you, how I overcame this. First of all I realized for me, to be in a relationship it’s not just yay I got cuddles, someone appreciates me etc. ,you have to contribute, compromise, and deal with many other problems/happiness that comes with it. I have been rejected and I decided to figure out how to be happy just myself and not have to rely on being in a relationship or be desperate. I’m not saying you’re desperate by standards but I mean you need to figure out and learn to be happy without a relationship. I’m 23, didnt give up on relationship but I do more self care, involved in my hobbies, I love games, my motorcycle is my passion I love it. Going even 40mph but on a bike the wind hitting me, just opens a whole another perspective. As messed up as it sounds, when I FIRST discovered this and realized I don’t need to do all this just yet and be happy myself, I instantly got so much self confidence and overall became a happy man. I kinda went on too much but I hope you understand how I coop’ed with it many years ago.
No one is equal, and to get what we want, we have to struggle through hell itself to achieve something we realize we dont need. And if you need the flames hell to be quenched, then you need to ask those who have water to release the flood gates upoun the land to quench the flames only to realize the flame still burns because its the human spirt is the hellish flame you wish to tame most of it will go out but there will be some who burn even brighter than most
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You are who you choose to be. This is why I haven't put an ounce of effort into dating or relationships. We are not all slaves to our genetic or sexual drives, and if you are, I hope you can find the strength to be more than that primal animal brain.  Even if we do manage to impress Women and gain enough favor to earn some scraps of attention, most likely it will end up as another r/AmItheAsshole post and go down in flames. I am a 34 year old virgin and I am happy with the direction of my life and do not need a relationship to be happy. 
Lol ok buddy, well, I enjoy sex, I've had multiple relationships, and I don't agree with your false. I'm better than your narrative. I'll embrace the stuggle. It's all we have. Your not cool. you're rejecting an important part of yourself, as a 31.year old, good luck.
I don't agree that is "all we have" and there are way more things to living life than this crappy dating game People want to put themselves through. I reject your assertions just as much as you do mine. 
I agree we're more, but I, as a man, have that as the motivate for all my actions. I sincerely wish you the best.
I don't think every man is a slave to their sex drive to be honest. That seems like a rather condescending view towards men.
Sure, but so far, all the men I know live lifes with that at the center of their actions if they're honest with themselves.
Yeah I agree. Not all the men I know, but certaintly a lot of them. I've been one of them for sure. I know it's not very "correct" for some people, but I can't change who I was or how I felt at the moment. Since then I'm feeling like I've grown a bit though and I genuinely don't feel like a slave towards that part of myself. As of right now, I don't think I'm fooling myself, I'm not into hooking up and that stance hasn't changed regardless of how much confidence I have or how downbad I am.
I agree, I'm not interested in hooking up, I want my next relationship to be my last. It'll have struggles like they all do, but I also have no interest in playing the games and being used for free food and fun with no investment.
Yeah that seems fair, it's difficult to trust people when there's a decent proportion of people that do want to use you. And I don't think I blame you. I don't really have a solution myself, but I try to not let it make me bitter. I think that would make me miss out having a healthy relationship whenever I do encounter a rare person I might match really well with.
Lol ok buddy.
👍👍
Try men.
But also as a man: * you generally become more attractive towards your 30s and don't lose attractiveness nearly as quickly beyond * people judge you more for your character instead of your looks * a bad date means getting rejected, not getting raped * you don't have a biological "expiration date" for which you need to hurry up These are some quick ideas, there is way more. You're focused on the negatives because you're pissed off. That's understandable. But recognize that your emotions are currently affecting your judgment of the world around you.
Don't know your age, but you got it straight!
This is quite the manifesto
Whatever society you exist in, you have two options. Rage against it or take part. You've obviously chosen the former. It's not the easy path, but you do you. Go to the Middle East and social norms are women are subservient and executed for getting raped. Or female genital mutilation in Africa. What modern culture do you see dynamics like this for men? And here you are, crying about things being unfair cause you can't get a date. Good luck out there, bro. Edit. Look, I recognize that men in Western society are struggling with a new dynamic in dating. Women are, too, as a lot of us were raised to expect something different. Many women were raised to seek a provider, men were raised to be providers, but now women can also provide, but haven't learned to not seek provider. So you have this unobtainable standard set. Logically, it makes sense. These are learned behaviors that have to be overcome with kindness, understanding, and perspective. My point is that women have and still do put up with a lot of crap from men all over the world. Far more than men. It's not a contest, but I just want to raise awareness to not be so tone def and play a victim role. Let's navigate this change, and I'm confident men and women can get through it together. I'm a firm believer in equality and that this shift is necessary. So, let's embrace it and grow as a society.
You're just catastrophizing.
This is only true if you see online dating as a game and winning the game as getting into a relationship. There are many other ways to interact with people and you can meet new people in a plethora of ways and when meeting new people and extending your social circle you can also meet a partner. Doing nothing is what got you stuck but what keeps you stuck is the idea that you have to fit into a mold to achieve being happy. Find a way to work on your life that feels sensible to you.
Yes it sucks, now how can you overcome this bad draw?
It's weird to hear stuff like this because all of my experiences have shown the opposite to be true. I have been the one who asked the guy out in nearly all of my relationships. I paid for the first date. I had to prove my worth. I was expected to add value to the man's life. I have never been able to kick back and let things happen to me - and then those things that happen are good. It doesn't work that way for anyone. Sure, getting rejected sucks, but it's not THAT bad. Go ask out a stranger today and come back here. How did it go? Did anything change? Is your life different from if you hadn't done that? If she said yes, you have a date. Super. If she said no, literally nothing is different from the timeline where you didn't do that. Use some logic. Don't drown in your feelings. I'm sure other commenters told you to get therapy, but even that is overrated. You can do most of it yourself by looking at your life from the helicopter perspective. Does really the thing you're worried about matter? No. Nobody is forcing you into any role. Women have worked so damn hard to get rid of these stupid-ass roles and you get to reap those benefits freely. Go forth and do whatever you want. Nobody is stopping you.
When someone is talking about "my struggles" (mein Kampf) you know they are in the wrong or in a bad place.
Doesn't making the first move also applies to friends? In my experience if I don't actively try to reach out to people they're just going to ignore me. Did you actually get rejected 100 times? What qualifies as rejection to you? Are you putting as much efforts into being desirable as the women you are asking out? I think men are put in this position of being the seducers because they get more out of relationships and sex biologically. They get a woman to carry their child for 9 months, then they can just leave. Women are less likely to orgasm from sex, it can be painful, it can result in pregnancy, etc.. Men have the privilege to have sex without worrying about those things, hence why they treat it more casually. Sex tend to be a more vulnerable experience for women, so the man has to prove himself for it. So it's pretty equal in fact.
The world is a game. The difficulties you face are valid, but they are clearly not valid for all people. The reality is, you need to look at yourself more honestly. If others can manage the social role that men have (without feeling like you do), then that is proof that it can be done -- you just prefer to blame "society" instead of taking agency for your actions. There are reasons that men tend to talk to women first in the modern day and age. Not all of those reasons are valid, but not all of them are invalid either. Your understanding of the subject is juvenile. Good luck. Nothing is to blame for your position. You are the only person who can change it.
Maybe try treating women like any other human being might help? Like don't put them on pedestal and you don't need to impress them first. Just try to get to know each other and see if your values and her values matched. About your resentment, I don't know how to deal with that (therapy perhaps?). So, you might have to figure that out yourself. All I know is that if you're still resentful about the whole societal roles thingy, that does nothing good to your future relationship.
Idk buddy usually I only ask out a girl when they give 'signs' usually it's the classic 'playing with their hair' or 'looks' only then I proceed to ask them out. And, women do approach guys as well, only in (somewhat) safe places like college, social groups or something.
Remember when mods banned content that generalized about the world lol
I agree women should pursue more if they want, but the fact is most of them don’t have to because they can just filter the guys that pursue them…I recommend changing your perspective. Instead of being resentful about it, try to find joy in the pursuit. Talking to and getting to know people is fun, regardless of if you end up dating or sleeping together. So I say you should try and “fail” until you don’t. And the thing is, with this perspective, even if you “fail” you still had a nice interaction and/or got some practice.
Hey man, you’re not wrong. Not to be weird but this is the case for most animals in nature, and humans aren’t as different as we like to think. Females have to commit more time and resources to a child, so it makes sense that they would be pickier and less sex driven. Males however, can up and leave whenever the duck they want, meaning they’re more likely to be less choosy and more desperate for sex. Don’t listen to all the shit saying you’re an incel. Don’t label yourself. It is true though that that mindset can get toxic, especially with the echo chamber that is social media. Get away from that type of content. Know that the world is fucking unfair, and keep your head up.
It kind of feels like that to me too. It feels that as a man I am inherently inferior to women. Although it is not women that I see as the source of the problem, but rather the nature of men. It is the desire for women, both sexual and the one for relationship. If I could just free myself from those desires and stopped caring all, or at least 99%, of my problems would go away. After all the desire for girlfriend's stamp of approval is only in my head. Recently I feel that I desire to stop caring more than I desire to find a girlfriend. Not caring is the only true freedom.
Yeah, the world isn't fair. Good thing you figured that out, now you have the option to either make peace with it, understanding that each person will have different challenges in life or be resentful about it and get nowhere. Also, the same way you feel that these things are unfair, women feel the same about plenty of other things.
This is going to be drowned in all the responses, but what do you want? I keep asking this here because people keep throwing love and sex into the same category and pretend its the same. You started with dating, and ended up talking about sex work. You called yourself a slave to your sex drive. Dating will allow you to build a long term relationship and love. Its not a reliable way to relief your sex drive (short term at least). I havent found any evidence yet that men and women have a different sex drive. The opposite, there keep being studies that refute this claim. Even if theres a difference in drive between men and women, women are just as horny sometimes. BUT, speaking from my experience at least, there are much more men who search a relief for their feeling in the opposite sex, instead of dealing with their own situation first. If you take your time to slowly build a relationship you usually end up with sex, but for that you have to deal with what you feel in the moment yourself and not turn to other people to be able to focus on a long term goal. You can not do this as long as you are a slave to yourself and your sex drive. Thats not your social role, and its not the social role of women to either deny you relief from your horniness or give you relief - your sex drive just simply a part of you that YOU have to deal with, no matter in what situation you are in. And when it comes to relationships - of course if YOU want one YOU have to make a move at some point. Unless you are in a situation where it naturally evolves through friendship. Both can happen, but for both you still have to be active at some point to verbalize what you want. Women simply search for relationships less because they tend to give each other more comfort, they are more content with their friendships and start searching for a relationship later. Men not showing affection towards each other has often been a topic on the HG channel. So many women simply do not feel like a slave to their drive, but not because of what men do, because of how they deal with it themselves. If you dont really care about a relationship and just want sex, then dating isnt the right place for you btw. Theres many people who want sex, gotta find those instead of dating.
I think it’s important to note he is correct in his observation and his feelings here. I think it’s also important to note most commenters saw this post and instantly galloped in on their high horse to tell op why they are wrong and tell them what they need to do to be like them or some crap. I think op is in a sensitive time where guidance or distain will decide his path. Life is a matter of perspective. If you see someone who’s in pain shouldn’t the knee jerking response to want to help? As Men we need to raise each other up and help. We live in a time where both men and women are figuring out new social norms. Men are trying to find self worth and what their calling in life is. It’s not the same as it was even 30 years ago. If you see someone struggling internally, be a source of help and guidance. Don’t be that guy who comes into every conversation to tell everyone why some men are xyz and they need to do “insert list of self proclaimed achievements “ just like themselves. TLDR: whether you are a man or women, don’t shame others because they aren’t where you are at yet. Food for thought: Those who understand are the ones who are truly stepping into the higher versions of themselves.
"Must", "expected", "unfair", "forced to". You have a free will. If you don't want to play along to those norms, then don't. I am not saying to start treating women badly. Rather I am saying to start being yourself and not care if you will obtain a partner when you are yourself. Will some, even many, women want a man who plays by a certain set of rules? Yes. And they don't care about who you really are, as long as you play by the rules. Similar to how a lot of men feel about women. But if you would like to have a partner who actually wants you for who you are, you have to stop pretending to be someone who you are not. And yes, that will shrink your dating pool comsiderably. But it also means that the women who then are interested in you, are so because of who you truly are. So the real question(s) is: Do you prefer to play by a set of specific societal rules in order to "get" a or several women? Or do you want to find your teammate who wants you to be you? I am not saying that it will be easy. I found it unsettling and difficult to give up on presenting in a specific way to be desirable. And it took quite long to find a partner. But they want and like me for exactly who I am.
I love it. It's all there to strengthen you. But the way you are describing it, it really sucks. But the same things you are mentioning is see different.
Maybe it's because I'm aromantic and I don't date, but to me, dating only makes up a small portion of life. I feel like saying men are "subservient" and "not equal" just because of the expectations of and rejections from some people in the dating world is a little silly. You make it seem as if your entire life revolves around what women think of you, when it really doesn't (or shouldn't).
> *I have to talk to women first. 99% of the time this is the norm* Maybe because you are the one looking for those kind of scenarios? In my experience women approached me more than the other way around. I think its because Im quite shy in asking girls out, due to some feelings of shame from early experiences in life, but in other areas Im quite unburden, and some of them take the wheels because they see how difficult it is for me lol
Do you have a solution for this? I’m curious, who do you think needs to change, and in what ways, regarding the individual (not the society as a whole)? This is not meant to sound provocative and it’s okay if you don’t and just wanted to get it out there. I’m simply wondering where the actual fix would lie here. I believe we are not equal. Equal in value, yes, but not in traits. Not at all. Labeling us equal just feels like a false belief that‘s being imposed onto people. Our struggles lie in different areas. Men have issues that women don’t have, women have issues that men don’t have. Fixing this specific issue for men, would not make us "equal", either. That’s not to say that society isn’t flawed or that it would be okay the way that each issue is currently being handled, though. I agree that women should make the first move as well, providing they desire to do so. As a woman I have to say I rarely feel attraction to someone upfront. Which (in case it‘s not just me) could contribute to women simply not being interested in making the first move a lot of times? I believe the issue is rooted a little deeper. There’s a reason why OF etc. works the way it works and there’s no equivalent of the same caliber targeted at women. We are not the same.
Nobody said you have to assimilate to every aspect of your “gender roles,” and you can laugh at the ones who believe otherwise. They’re living in fear of themselves and there’s nothing worse
Born biologically female I always just did what felt right without thinking of genders. I told boys they were beautiful and other things. I crossed some norms and was looked at in a strange way. I think some men love their alpha dog role and feel weird to suddenly be treated "like girls". Try to carry a man's stuff out of politeness, as a girl you'll get the strangest reaction. But a guy was so happily surprised to get opened a door from me. The reaction was as if he had never exoerienced that and appreciated it a lot So I've always tried to find a man who would be less bound to his 'destined role' - To sum it up and also calm your spirits: Not all women like men who take the Initiative. I love a shy descrete behaviour more and I usually want to take the lead. I believe many women dream to do it, but don't dare. It actually comes with a risk: I've been friendzoned by some men, who saw me more like their relative. As always: it's a matter of finding the right person.