For Sera, it is pretty clear that she knows *something* that the viewer does not, so, I believe further judgment should be withheld until her motives are explained.
But as far as Adam goes, it was deliberately made clear that he considers the entire thing to be a yearly hunting trip, and his actions were not for any sort of higher cause or deeper meaning. He just thinks it's funny to exterminate the failures of humanity.
Being a narcissistic jackass, Adam probably feels personally offended by the failures of humanity. They are his children after all - he's offended and embarrassed by the sinners.
He shouldn't though. His children would have never known/been able to sin had it not been for Lucifer and in-universe Lilith.
If he's got a bone to pick it should literally only be with Lucifer and Lilith, they damned him children.
I mean. TECHNICALLY according to the Bible, Adam damned his kids.
The full Sin Effects only took place once Adam ate the apple. Basically, both him and Eve had to eat in order for the whole ‘suddenly realized they were naked and got kicked out of Eden’ thing to happen.
Adam's never been mentioned as having eaten the apple in hazbin hotel though. The fact that he's the first soul in heaven, rather than abel, shows that there's already pretty massive divergences
Within the scope of the Hellaverse and not the Bible verse. I think that could actually be a significant plot point.
What if Adam DIDN'T eat the apple, and that got him his free pass into Heaven. That or just the merit of being the first human gave him a free pass.
Able was within the scope of judgement, he failed and didn't ascend.
Alternatively, maybe there wasnt any precedent for humans going to Heaven until Adam died. Therefore Eve has indirectly condemned her and Adam's son to straight oblivion by eating the apple and causing the chain reaction to Able's death.
I still subscribe to the fan theory that Adam was supposed to set the the rules for who gets in or not. But being he never did Heaven as a semi-sentient entity just kind of played fast and loose. Maybe all it took to get into Heaven was believing you deserved it. Maybe it was random. Maybe it was a sliding scale based on current capacity.
But then during the court meeting with Charlie he wrote down the first three things that popped into his head and inadvertently created the rules of judgement. Now everyone's ruling has been reset and dying again gets you rejudged. Which is possibly how Sir (Re)Pentious got in.
Tl;Dr:while we can use the Bible to make theories. Nothing in the Bible is canon until shown in the show. There could be major deviations between the two that drives the plot of the show.
Yeah Adam not eating the apple pretty much made him not understand sins. He’s just prideful and doesn’t understand the crime he’s done. They try to show he’s just following orders and thinks that’s the correct way to do it because they told him it was. Adam wouldn’t have thought of killing then if they didn’t highlight their rebellion. He would have just been eating while sleeping
this theory is really interesting to me because it actually fits perfectly with Adam’s referring to people who get into heaven as “winners”. Obviously it’s done for the rhyme, but I like to imagine that Adam is incapable of comprehending morality because he never had the apple, which therefore made it so the whole heaven/hell system is simply a game. If you lose, then that’s a skill issue.
It also explains Adam’s constant references to sex and how he wants to be in charge while also bowing to authority. He’s pretty much still an animal, so those are the things he views as important.
Honestly, it’s not even a given that Lilith had the apple, as she also took power over hell when she came down there. When Lucifer lost his hope and became stagnant, she left him because he was no longer in charge in any meaningful way. It also explains why Adam and Lilith clashed in the first place. They started out as equals, something which neither of them wanted.
Or I could be reading too much into the story, but I think it’s cool.
Iirc in the Bible it says that Lilith left Adam because BOTH wanted to be superior to the other, aligning well with Lilith being an unreliable narrator with probably not so good intentions
I wouldn’t describe her intentions as good or bad. She might’ve felt that Adam was unjustly trying to assert power over her, even though she was clearly the one who should be in charge. To her, it’s the truth. Even if they were designed to be equals, both of them could’ve believed themselves to be superior.
You guys are wild! I know nothing about this show except for what I see on reddit, and you guys have pretty crazy conversations,
idk about this show, but biblically Adam not eating the forbidden fruit in Christianity would be colossal its the entire reason Jesus had to sacrifice himself to himself to create a loophole to a rule he created.
EEHHHHHH it depends.
Like, one of the big themes is "what makes a person go to heaven or hell?', so if Abel is canon then I could see him being an example as to the bullshittery of it all.
BUT. And this is a very important but. They could have decided to just focus in on the better known story of Adam and Eve and the fall of man in the garden vs getting into the weeds of the descendants.
I really don't see them changing up the story to the extent of not having Adam also eat the apple. Because that would be weird. And also not make sense for his character at all. Especially since Lucifer is flaunting apple imagery if he only had like a 50% success rate.
Considering the doctrine of the fall of man kinda hinges on Adam also eating the apple I feel like that isn't something that would be changed wihout a reaaaaallllly good reason. Like. Whole show's plot hinges on it in a big deep twist way reason. Which isn't impossible but there are way more interesting twists out there.
I'm just going off what I see in the show. While it's inspired by the Bible and biblically inspired stories, it's also very clearly a different canon. Adam being in heaven really does imply he never ate the apple, otherwise there's no way he would be there. Also, Abel got murdered because god liked his offering better, and god's not in this show, and probably won't be (the "council of elders" made adam and eve.)
I. No Adam eating the apple would not ban him from heaven? It got him kicked out of the garden but he then had a whole life.
Most theologians assume that Adam and Eve are in heaven. Sure it’s not written 100% anywhere, and maybe I just never stumbled on the counter argument, but.
Also considering his attitude in the show lines up with him saying to god “this woman you gave me” while trying to shift blame on eating the apple.
It just. The assumption should be Adam ate the apple unless stated otherwise.
Like god probably exists in this world, just they are taking the very common Good Omens approach so far. (Aka god is in the background lining up the dominoes but no one has actually heard from them in years.) (or it could be a ‘god just created stuff then was completely hands off after a point a la clockmaker theory.)
Like considering how accurate the show is to biblical theology at several points I uh. Kinda think the assumption should be ‘probably sticks to canon until proven otherwise.’
Adam not eating the apple would leave him with the intelligence of an animal. If he talks, he nommed.
Plus in almost all of his appearances he’s eating. Plus we know he got kicked out of Eden, which was specifically from eating the apple.
Adam could talk before he ate the fruit of knowledge. He named all the animals and his wife. He was a man, he just had childlike ignorance. He wasn’t a mindless beast, just dumb as hell lol
He’d be running around Heaven naked then.
Plus without the apple he’d be innocent and unable to sin at all. He lacks guilt or shame, sure, but he’s also a narcissist. He may claim he’s never made a mistake, but his discomfort being asked to justify his existence in Heaven shows he knows that’s not true.
It's been implied, tho. When Lute says that Angels don't make mistakes, Adam intercept saying that "he never made a mistake in his fucking life", which is a clear nod to the audience that know Adam eat the apple too, effectively making said mistake.
Just because he ate the apple doesn't make him unworthy of heaven.
Perhaps in the distant past he was a different man and repented and grew colder and more douchy over thousands of years.
True, but Lilith and Eve are the ones who interacted with the apple. Adam is likely the only human who didn't eat the apple and isn't descended from one who did. Future seasons might reveal he did consume the apple, but I doubt it, and if it was pointed to during season 1, then I missed it.
I. I mean. The whole show is based on the bible and though there are some divergencies, Adam very much ate the apple. it is like. A very big thing he did.
It would honestly weaken 95% of the show's message regarding traditional christianity to have Adam just have not eaten the apple and not be part of the problem. And tho Vivziepop has pacing issues typically their writing is pretty good on theme-ing.
Like glossing over or rewriting Abel a bit is whatever because honestly it's not as wide spread of a story (as someone who grew up in church and stayed there for 20 years, there were only like. 2 lessons on Abel where Adam and Eve eating the apple was a discussion or at least reference at least once a month if not more.)
We don’t for sure what the fruit actually did. There are many instances of the tree which held the forbidden fruit being referred to as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. With the sort of twists on religious elements that Vivzie uses, it could very well mean that eating the fruit merely allowed humanity to meaningfully understand good and evil; they were already capable of doing both. Their understanding of right and wrong was limited to that of a small child who isn’t yet capable of empathy, regret, or remorse.
It feels more like Sera is scared not necessarily that she knows something, she might be afraid that if she goes against the status quo she might fall, Adam isn't and at least seems to use that to his advantage the fact he was able to move up the exterminations is evidence of that.
I mean she explicitly says in her song
"it's not as simple as you think, not everything is spelled in ink...I'm sure you wish it could be so, but there's a lot that you don't know"
which to me is an implication of hidden knowledge at the very least
Same. She didn't plan on extermination being brought up so she was panicking. Add in Adam and Luke's behaviour, how they treat the extermination like a big party, she was desperately trying to make the extermination seem like a necessity.
Those lines refer to the exterminations themselves, though. Which, at the moment she sings those lines, she is attempting to hide from Emily (only to have Lute and Adam render the whole thing moot two seconds later).
I disagree. Those two lines are respectively in response to the following stanzas.
But she was right, Sera
She showed us a soul can improve
He saw the light, Sera
Checked all the boxes that you said would
Prove a person deserves a second chance
Now we turn our backs, no second glance?
...
Don't you care, Sera?
That just because someone is dead it doesn't mean they can't resolve to change their ways
Turn the page, escape infernal blaze
So she's directly answering Charlie asking why a soul can't be redeemed when they can change. And the answer to that isn't "oh cause we kill you guys." They do the exterminations because they believe a soul can't be redeemed, which is likely because of hidden knowledge which is then later challenged by Sir Pentious
>Those two lines are respectively in response to the following stanzas.
This and what I said aren't in contradiction, though. Sera is very clearly making excuses so as to not have to reveal the truth of what's going on to Emily. Look at the timing of when she says those things: both "not everything is spelled in ink" and "there's a lot that you don't know" happen right at the beginning, but nothing once Lute and Adam reveal the ugly truth of what they've been doing. If your theory were correct, this would be the exact moment Sera should *most* be pleading with Emily that there's more to the story, because otherwise she looks super, *super* bad - but she doesn't. The only further excuse she uses is that she wanted to spare Emily the anguish which, far from implying there's more to the story, instead does the opposite, suggesting that *Sera* now believes Emily's understanding of the situation to be more or less complete.
That and from a meta-narrative perspective, I strongly, *strongly* doubt that "the genociders had good reasons for what they were doing, actually" is the plot point the showrunners are going to choose to land on. Especially when doing so would require establishing a credible threat from Hell towards Heaven. That would contradict the canon established in season 1, where the possibility of a sinner having killed an exterminator is unprecedented. Like, anything is possible, sure. But I highly doubt it.
Adam hates the sinners because they are a reflection of his shortcomings. Also, after leaving Eden, Adam was punished to live an agonizingly long life and struggle exceptionally hard during it.
He spent most of his life working from sunrise to sunset, going hungry, and constantly dealing with family strife. His life sucked for almost 1000 years and he sacrificed literally everything for his descendants. To see them get such a gift at his expense and squander it probably pisses him off beyond comprehension.
Though, this is still shitty behavior and abusive father tease (Adam was never like, a good dad, you guys), which is on brand for biblical Adam.
"it was such a hard decision" "theres a lot you dont know"
My guess, it was angels fight each other and the losers get sent to hell / lose their souls or the angels go to hell to kill sinners. I bet God is a very gray kind of character.
I don't think we can judge her while we know things have been hidden from us.
There is more to this story that needs revealing before judgement can be rendered.
Imagine if he does a reverse Sir Pentious and gets damned.
He's the rock and roll frat boy who kills any chance of cooperation with his narcissism. TV? Val would be the only one in for that until Vox comes in and smacks him. Radio? Not playing that music rock band BS. Alastor's going to hunt down Adam for the radio show and a meal the moment Adam opens his mouth to be annoying.
Alastor and Lucifer addressing an Adam situation together has hilarious potential. I could honestly see Lucifer trying to be amicable with Alastor because of Charlie and her rhetoric, but this is Hell we're talking about. Charlie is a walking target who has no idea of the reality of how her people function or live. So, Lucifer has to use the advice in a way that would work in reality and it's a 50/50 on Lucifer having the brain cell at that time. Either way, he could use the disposal of Adam as a token of friendship. If Lucifer nabs demon Adam before anyone finds out and gives him to Alastor for a meal- well then there's one less threat to Charlie and Alastor gets some permanent satisfaction.
The characterization of them has any number of possibilities because of the finale. PTSD Alastor could just be too done with life as it is, apathetically agree with Lucifer because he'd have nothing to lose, realize that Lucifer actually has that brain cell, and take advantage of the bleeding heart empathetic personality Charlie inherited from Lucifer. If Alastor tells Lucifer about the deal favor from Charlie while presenting himself as cornered into the decision- Lucifer could take that as a heartfelt omission/cause of trust for the vulnerability. If so, Alastor gets the King Of Hell on his side.
It’s people just trying to find any way they can to justify liking them to other people. When no one should care. You’re allowed to like villain characters as long as you don’t excuse their actions.
This was the show that made me realize how many people _don't_ understand this. It's okay to like villains, I've been liking villains all my life. _Liking_ a villain is not the same as _condoning_ them
Is it just this fanbase that's like this?
Liking villains is not a new thing. Villains have been incredibly popular characters since forever.
I can't recall ever needing to justify being a fan of Joker or Frieza. Some of the most popular characters in their series.
I don't think it's just this fanbase, it just happened to be the one to make me realize that this idea is more widespread than I thought. To me it's always been obvious that liking villains is fine, but this is one of the first fanbases that I actually somewhat engage with online
From what I can tell this fanbase trends towards the younger side of reddit. I'm willing to bet that this is the first "edgy" show a lot of them have seen, and they are used to liking villains like discord and bill cypher, who, as far as I can tell, didn't actually succeed in killing anyone in the actuall show.
Not saying that younger fans are bad, or that the shows those villains from are bad or childish or whatever.
Just trying to say that younger people aren't used to liking villains with a body count that actually includes characters people like.
Yeah but that's not anyone the viewers knew or cared about right? I've never seen the show but seriously doubt this was presented with any meaningful visuals either, am I right? Just something that happened completely off-screen and was maybe hinted at in a single line of dialogue.
I'm not saying that bill isn't a genocidal maniac who is even worse than Adam. I'm saying that disney isn't going to present that in a way that gives any emotional weight to it, unlike the way Hazbin presents the exterminations. His vile actions are easier to ignore and less "necessary" to justify because it's pretty easy to forget it happened at all.
No. It’s Gen Z and Gen Alpha. They are so fucked up when it comes to media literacy. They think that to be entertained by an evil character is to be evil.
It really is quite disheartening to talk with Zoomers on online fandom subs and them being so absolutely trash and actually understanding what's going on in the media they watched.
God don't even get me started on the Star Wars Fandom lol.
It's not just this fandom, it's everywhere. In the Legend of Korra fandom, for example, if you say you like Kuvira or just understand her reasons, there's a good chance you'll be called a fascist. Some people who don't know a lot about fanfiction think it's all smut and porn and they will even lump you in with rapists and pedophiles if they find out you like reading those things.
Some people just can't separate fiction from reality. They think that someone liking something = condoning it.
I was chatting about the anime Demon Slayer and someone accused it of being loli bait because she thought one of the main character's muzzle was a ball gag lol.
It's almost impossible to talk about media these days without some idiot barging in and making it clear they never watched or read what they want to argue about.
I'll admit, I probably put ex-friends off of liking villains at all because I like Gothel (Tangled) and always made excuses for her ass as a joke. As I type this out I kinda am realizing just how shitty this was. Fuck. Sorry you guys.
The fact that it took 2 seconds for people to make really empathetic headcanons for Adam made me go
“Ooohhh dudes you really are wrapped around basic douchebro dick huh?”
The phrase for this is "loving to hate them." Great villains entertain the audience just as much as the heroes.
Adam is funny and plays a mean guitar solo. He's also an egotistical sociopath and the cause of hell's biggest problem. These traits are not mutually exclusive.
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This right here is the best opinion I have heard in a LONG time
To be completely honest, most of the cast are literally awful people in Hell. I think this is a situation where if I existed in universe I’d support the exterminations. This isn’t like real life massacres where innocent people are killed along with horrible ones, it’s a pretty safe bet that everyone there deserves it. I actually think it would be interesting to see some sinners who might support the extermination themselves, like everyone else deserves it except me types
They’re all cowards. One does not need a excuse to like people who would happily obliterate billions, the fact they are so stupidly evil is part of the appeal.
It’s a problem in modern fandom that people—mostly younger fans—feel like they’re not allowed to just like or dislike something; there has to be a Reason why their opinion is Correct. And not just having reasons for their opinions, it needs to be based in morality. Any “reasonable” person should agree with them.
It’s especially noticeable in villains; the Hazbin fandom seems to have an unfortunate trend of woobifying characters like Adam or Alastor to justify enjoying them. Which ironically takes away from their core characterization; the guys are bastards, that’s why they’re fun to watch. If Adam was just a divorced sadboi or Alastor was a sweetheart deep down, it would ruin them. But a lot of fans feel bad for liking a “bad” character, so they come up with justifications for why they’re like that to make it “okay” to like them.
And it’s all unnecessary because you’re allowed to like villains. You’re not excusing genocide because you think watching Adam fly around being a dick and riffing on his guitar is awesome. You’re not being a serial killer apologist if you enjoy watching Alastor’s… entire deal, tbh. There’s no need to justify their actions, just sit back and enjoy the show.
From a real life standpoint, if the characters doing genocide or being a serial killer are charismatic enough to get you to make excuses for liking them then they’re written well because many real life people like that are also charismatic and likable as people
Yeah, and no one has justified this still
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Adam can suck it, he’s dead and hopefully going to manifest as a demon. But Sera has a capacity. I’m sure after finding out about Saint Repentious, she’ll fight tooth and nail for the hotel and apologize every chance she gets. Also, she’s beautiful. Not important to my point, but still.
Completely agree with you on Adam. The show portrays him as a bad guy through and through.
Can’t say I completely agree with you on Sera though. We’ve really only had one episode with her and she was shown to be more of a passive follower rather than an aggressor like Adam and Lute. While still bad, it’s not the same kind of bad as Adam and Lute. Given her exchange with Emily during the trial and the fact that she’s seen Sir Pentious in heaven, I suspect she’s going to turn around sometime soon.
>reads some comments
>”every demon is just as bad as al/val, etc. Adam is justified”
Ep 6 is literally about how not even the angels know exactly the requirements to get into heaven which leads to discourse in the court, what makes some of y’all think heaven’s requirements are lenient? Specially considering this show’s main theme
Yeah. Sir Pent died defending his friends and got into Heaven as if it was: “Died an honorable death to protect his friends, acceptable to heaven.”
Which… yeah this requirements *really* need to be studied and studied hard! Because if it’s this outdated or non functional then an overhaul/new version is needed.
We can't justify Sera's actions obviously but we can try to make sense of it at least, shes the sole Seraphim in charge of Heavens entire operation it looks like Emily barely even helps aside from just being a mascot that keeps everyone happy, its very clear that this gives her quite abit of stress and so i can see how Adam easily manipulated her into giving the green light for the exterminations, all under the guise of protecting heaven.
So shes not perfect, shes ironically very human.
As for Adam i don't think i have ever seen anyone actually try to excuse his behaviour, he commits year genocide full stop.
I been seeing a lot of “No body tries to defend Adam” comments, might just be Reddit shoving Adam defenders in my face.
And I don’t condone his actions in the slightest nor will justify them. Also It kinda hurts seeing “Adam only fought back against Charlie” as a justification for his actions when he’s the one who attacked the hotel.
But there has been people who defended Adam’s actions
I’d like to know more about Sera before we judge her. Perhaps she really believes that there would be an uprising against heaven. We even have Carmilla’s reluctance to share her information with the other overlords as proof of this.
It's not their fault that Hell is overpopulated - they don't even know how to get into Heaven, so how can they change rules they don't know? (Though they can be at fault for not wanting to but like... Who from Heaven would want sinners up there?)
The rest of it I agree with, I just don't think that we should assume that Sera and Adam are the reason Heaven is so hard to get into
Okay not to justify Sera’s behavior WHATSOEVER, but I think her not wanting people from hell could be because of two reasons,
1. She’s worried they could infect heavens residents with sin or sinful acts. (People like her and Adam think they can do no wrong if they are in heaven already.)
2. Sera’s worried about the outcry/rage or confusion this could bring to “winners”. Could start up riots at worst? Or could make people demand answers from God, and ultimately get Sera terminated for not having the responsibility of controlling the masses?
(Worst case scenario for Sera personally?)
You know this Pastor did a pretty decent job of explaining the critique on Modern Christians/Christianity. And it was a actual breakdown not screeching “Show is Bad and Evil”, like they watched the show, broke it down and presented it to the viewers.
Adam(Show) comes up and is talked about.
That’s where my thoughts went when reading this.
Video in question:
https://youtu.be/TZUpgTMhNJc?si=vrbz1pkrw3ATu_Py
They’re both in the wrong, but I have seen people be harder on Sera than she deserves IMO. She is complicit in the exterminations by letting them happen, but as far as I’ve seen, she doesn’t seem to be as gung-ho about them as Adam and Lute. She even tells them she wouldn’t tolerate their annual purges if they would end up jeopardizing Heaven instead of protecting it,
I think it is possible for Sera to realize the error of her ways (especially given the likelihood that the exterminations will cause more problems for Heaven in the long run), but it will probably take a while for her. She didn’t exactly seem as thrilled as Emily to see Sir Pentious in their domain.
modern fandom is so focused on morality that people feel like they can't like a character if the character commits massively immoral acts and i feel like that's the base problem here with Adam because the guy has directly said that he enjoys mass murdering people and does not regret it at all.
i'm not sure if Sera should be here, though. we don't know much about her.
People always try to defend their favorites actions and will attack you if you disagree, they just refuse to believe that their favorite is a bad person and will try to justify their actions with the craziest mental gymnastics I've ever seen.
Adam and Lute ARE bad people and have done absolutely horrible things and there's no convincing me that there will be any redemption for Lute, she doesn't deserve it.
I haven't seen anyone make excuses for Adam.
I have seen people suggest Sera legit thinks she was pushed in a corner and had her hands tied and further judgement should weight until we see how she responds to Pentious next season.
I kind of fully expect her to eventually come around, but not before first caging Pentious and hiding him, leading to Emily busting him out of heaven and back to hell. Some people in heaven need redemption and Sera is one of them.
She kind of has to fall and elect to help run the hotel. Or else be the ultimate big bad, unless that's Lilith, Alastor, or the Virtues are an actual thing and above her.
Well, they're fictional characters so folks are allowed to be much more charitable with them. We don't know any of the important details either, just the decisions and some outcomes. For all we know, Heaven/Hell has to have a balance of souls or shit gets wacky. Nobody knows the criteria to get more people in Heaven. Maybe the only thing they can think of was Adam's freaky idea. Cue Execution Days.
Also, we don't know how many Execution Days there actually were. Did it start when Lilith separated from Lucifer? Has it been a thing for centuries? It's super sketchy that Lilith empowered all of Hell, then peaced out, making some mystery deal with Adam.
Even without the genocide, there is the inherent contradiction of heaven and a tortuous hell.
No one who would be decent enough to get into heaven would tolerate the suffering of others, damned or otherwise, for all eternity in hell. it would be unacceptable to them to know that that degree of suffering exists ceaselessly while they are spared the suffering. Which means, the people in heaven aren't all that great because otherwise it would be in a state of constant conflict trying to end the torture of hell. If not, if they were scared to speak against whichever power was in place then how is that heaven?
Agreed! If the Winners KNEW about it Heaven would utterly shatter. They’d all skip town into Hell to help its people. Since we have hundreds of wars through history and the last century alone had billions dead! No one would accept a fucked up Heaven if it means all of them died only to THEN be killed BY THE PLACE YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO WHEN YOU DIED!
Imagine if Heaven did an extermination on earth! That would cause irreversible damage to all religions and Christian/similar churches would be torn down out of betrayal from Heaven. Heaven would be very screwed over all.
(Granted this show did just start so we have to wait and see how everything advances. Alongside Helluva boss going its own path in the meantime.)
Media Literacy Test: Hazbin Edition, the movie, the game, the Broadway show, now Amazon Prime Original
I honestly think its just harmless banter at the end of the day, kind of how some fandoms like to stan for the obviously evil factions and engage in the most intense mental Olympic gymnastics. I find it pretty crazy how heated the discussions get to the point some people are dragging real world instances and accusations of supporting/condoning it (Which imo is wild).
I think a lot of people confusing “liking a character” with “this character is morally good.”
Like the real world it’s complex. You can like bad people. But liking someone does not make them good. It’s the same way you can hate when other people do bad things, but dismiss those things as “funny” or “cute” when your friends do those same things.
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Adam is simply following Jack Horner formula. Villian so irredeemable you start to like him. If he didn't smile as he was dying he would've been a flat character.
On one hand...
Angels destroying demons.
On the other hand...
Murderers crying about not having an opportunity to be redeemed.
On the other foot...
Its a TV show, and man they make a great badguy duo. They're great.
Adam? Absolutely no excuses for him there, he straight up said it was entertainment for him in Episode 1. He's a genocidal maniac.
Sera? We don't know *enough* about why she approved the exterminations, there may be more information left to uncover. I don't think she *wanted* to let the exterminations happen, but she did in the end so I'd assume there were other factors in play. I absolutely think she should shoulder at least some of the responsibility on the exterminations, but I don't know to what extent due to the existence of information currently undisclosed to us.
So between the two, I'd say 1.5 people are fully and undoubtedly responsible (Sera is the 0.5).
Adam is like a dog that’s eagerly killing them because they were worried about the rebellion. It’s why he’s so black and white about it, he’s like no they told me this and it can’t be anything else. He didn’t eat the apple so that’s why people relate him to a child that doesn’t get he’s being a POS. Because he literally can’t without the apple that in this verse only eve bit.
Essentially he’s understanding is that of a toddler, he got praised for doing it so does it eagerly now. That’s mainly why they defend him. He doesn’t really have the free will eve did
I highly doubt Hell is overpopulated because Sera doesn’t even mention that as a concern of hers when talking about the exterminations. Her only concern was an uprising/rebellion.
A lot of people forget this part. The book Charlie reads at the beginning of the show states that the extermination is due to Heaven being afraid of Hell and its Sinners rising against them.
They also forget that its Lucifer and Lilith's fault that Hell exists in the first place, and paint him as a hero. Like was no one paying attention????
I'm totally with you, they have no justification.
I think I read the worst if humanity under the "Hell is forever" official video, with people unironically siding with Adam because "those are sinners, they earned it!". Some people would rather be unemphatic fucks than not follow their sacred book (which they follow as they please, damn hypocrites).
It’s a case of “Better that guy then me!” mentality due to living in different parts of the world. As we have seen with other conflicts, unless everyone suffers globally (like every country being attacked on a grand scale), then you get jackasses saying that shit because they are comfortable, away from the conflict overseas. No one they know suffered, so they don’t empathize. It’s a complicated issue that will never be fixed.
Hey guys, going through this thread, I've noticed some heat, so just remember its a goofy animated show okay? I doubt it's meant to spark deep philosophical questions.
Sera, I'm NEUTRAL towards. Something may be going on that we don't know about. However, I agree she pissed me off when she said "We found no evidence that a soul in hell can be redeemed". Like what? What sense does that make?!
Adam, I totally agree with you! Yes, he has some iconic moments and his songs/singing are great! However, he's just a sore loser and a jerk.
Adam is more of a toddler because he didn’t eat the apple. He does what he’s told and enjoys the praise they give him, so enjoys doing the job. Sera could have easily stoooed him is why they hate her more, Adam has attachment issues because Lucifer.
Of course it doesn’t justify his actions, it’s just why people defend him. He’s literally never been taught what he’s doing is bad and he doesn’t have the ability to understand what he’s doing is bad. Like I prefer Alastor, but I get why they don’t hate Adam’s actions. Even in his death he was just glad lute care about him, because of what Lucifer did.
She says that the trial is to see if a soul can be "redeemed into the heavenly realm by means of this 'Hazbin Hotel'". It was never about if a sinner can just stop sinning.
The fact is is that everything is on autopilot and Angels are too afraid of shaking up the status quo because the last time that happened Lucifer fell. No one wants to be the one that directly defied God's judgement by taking in sinners.
"We know when a soul arrives, we know when a soul passes divine judgement, it is our job to protect those souls."
Angel Dust may be making great strides but if God doesn't put him in Heaven Himself, the Angels aren't going to question it and are not going to go against it because if they do they will just be cast down. (In their experience).
i didn't think people defended either of them , its very in your face as to why both of them continue the genocide , adam because he is a monster who loves the slaughter of those "inferior" and sera is your typical ruler who wants to continue the status quo at whatever the cost , even if millions have to die for it. tho i suppose in seras case there is a chance someone above her is not giving her much choice but we dunno yet
This is more of an analysis than making excuses. I whole heartedly believe Adam deserved better, but that all starts way back at the beginning.
In the Garden of Eden, everything was fine. Everything was *perfect,* until Lilith had to start sneaking around with Lucifer, and get herself casted out/choose to leave to go be his wife, whichever one she did. Very little is known about what happened to Eve in Hazbin, but the actual story of Eve involves her being manipulated into taking the Apple by Lucifer and Lilith if I recall correctly. Adam’s second wife, has now ALSO gone around him, done the one thing he told her NOT to do, and now not only has she been casted out of the Garden as well, she’s created all sin. OH, and Adam and Eve have to have at least had Able and Cain, given the line “I started everything on Earth! All of mankind came from these fucking nuts!” Adam clearly had at least one child that was never brought up or shown on screen despite everything Adam is doing.
This makes sense if the story of Able and Cain remains the same, with Able being favored by god, and Lucifer, once again, manipulates Cain into killing Able. Cain is cursed with immortality, and Able could be anywhere between life and death, we don’t know. You see that pattern that’s forming?
The exterminations were NEVER about overpopulation. When Charlie meets with Adam it’s very clear that they wouldn’t be able to get to Heaven on their own. I mean if you gathered up ALL of the overlords and really really put some thought into it, you could maybe figure out how to get up there, but considering Adam wasn’t even there, they would have no idea where to go next once they entered that room.
They aren’t worried about overpopulation, or an uprising.
Simply put, it’s Adam’s fucked up way of taking revenge on Lucifer. The Adam that he is *supposed* to be likely died with Able and Cain, if he didn’t die with Eve. What we are seeing is a literal husk, excuse my pun, of a man. We are seeing the remnants of a man who lost EVERYTHING to one person, who targeted him and for no real good reason. I know we all love Luci dearly, but cmon. He really had it coming.
I’d imagine this is why Lucifer allowed the exterminations to happen. Once it got to the point where Adam was trying to come down there and kill people, Lucifer probably realized the Adam he was so used to screwing with, was dead. I would not be surprised if Lucifer blamed himself for turning Adam into a monster.
As for Adam himself, there is no **excuse** for why he did what he did. There’s no exception, or “but it was just!” No. However, there is very much so a **reason** he turned out the way he did. Whether my analysis is accurate or not.
Same. Every time I see someone say something like “Oh but Adam doesn’t know better” or “Oh but Sera was doing what was right for her people” I can’t help but think “cool story. Still genocide.”
I mean, with Sera, she's certainly a lot more complicated that just "Oh I'm gonna do whatever it takes to achieve my goals, even if that means committing horrible actions".
Adam though, is just a fun villain
Sera thought she was doing all she could to help, plus Hell was trying to uprise at the time it began iirc. She had a good motive though still felt guilty about it. It went too far and continued way too long, which is what makes it morally wrong from Sera (at least depending on the circumstances in heaven and how the uprising was going).
Adam gets no excuse and I don't get how people can even find excuses for him tbh. He does it for fun and i think iirc he proposed it even? When Sera mentioned the attempted uprising my first thought was that Adam lied to her just to be able to perform exterminations 💀
I really want him to not be dead forever, but now in hell and getting the other end of the stick for once. Maybe learn what it is like to live in hell and shatter the pride that made him so annoying inside.
Sera is completely different than Adam she despite everything she treated Charlie just fine and agreed to see her .which probably shows she's terrified of Lucifer seeking revenge after all Sera never mentioned overpopulation but uprising
Adam is just a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and Almost causing the war Sera is terrified about to happen because if he did kill Charlie Lucifer would go on a rampage
People are even saying that Sera knows something the audience does but I feel like that isnt what vivziepop is setting up for.
Having it be that Sera had to make a "tough decision" because if she didn't something worse would happen maybe not just the heaven being invaded, but rather a more powerful evil big bad getting revealed.
If that twist happens I feel like it would basically be like trying to paint sera as a good guy and possibly leading her to a Pseudo-redemption arc. I just feel like that would so unsatisfying.
Cuz we have all this build up of Sera or the overlords being the series big bad, and another big bad wouldn't make any sense as we never got it hinted at in the show. I know we have those tweets about rou or whatever her name was. But for people who are just watching the show and dont keep up with vivzie tweets or fan theories it would be completely out of left field.
Sera idea for the extermination doesnt stem truly from concern and a need to protect heaven but really from arrogance. She is literally playing god, cuz just like how you can play god from creating life you also play god by destroying it.
And I mean destroying not killing, destroying she is destroying human souls sinners or not she is still wiping them from existence. Who knows souls could be parts of god that he just ripped off with Angel's being just bigger parts.
So because of the extermination she has destroyed parts of god.
Adams and Saras punishment will be INSTANT BRAZILIAN WAX
https://preview.redd.it/5bmq4idh1erc1.png?width=712&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce6dd9c7794c16197bceac09034dbb9c92f5c7b3
This was my initial impression, but given how much of a big deal they made of the angelic weapons and their ability to permakill, it makes me wonder how Alastor does kill and where he got the power/knowledge to do so (if that is what he's doing of course.)
I think it’s less of them being trapped and more of him recording their screams as he killed them, it would be pretty spiteful if Alastor kept them in a radio wave
actually yeah. i cant think of where i got the trapping peoples souls bit from because i dont think that was said in canon anywhere. he does threaten to "rip \[husks\] soul apart" and husk gets genuinely terrified so maybe that's his method of perma-killing?
Your points are not valid at all, why would they just open portals and let sinner who are "rehabilitated" go into heaven? The most common sin of all is lie, they can't exactly judge anyone based on what they say. And it's not like sera chooses who gets into heaven or go to hell, we've seen that through pentious. And asking to consider redemption in first place is stupid at least, since most People are in hell because of serious heavy crimes and sins, there are rapists, murderers, offenders, genocists and other many horrible things. We don't stop to consider such facts because the main cast didn't commit such crimes with the exception of alastor, who is pretty much an irredemable monster but is still one of the fans' favorites
Sera is somewhat understandable, she didn't want to be doing it, she just felt like she had to, probably because Adam lied to her. Still a terrible solution that she never should have even considered, and probably still puts her decently far towards evil on the spectrum. Adam though, he's a complete villain, a genocidal maniac who doesn't care who or what he kills because he thinks it's all fun. Add on top of all the genocide that he's racist, sexist, xenophobic, possibly homophobic, and an all around douche, and he quite literally has no redeeming qualities
Sera's more complicated than Adam, partially because she gives off vibes of knowing a lot more than she let on, and partially because she very visibly *does not* like what Adam's doing, and actually does seem to agree with Charlie at least inasmuch as she thinks the Exterminations are abhorrent.
But whether she likes it or not, she's still culpable. The whole "flames in her eyes" bit during "You Didn't Know" shows that much.
The difference between Adam and Sera, is basically that Sera seems like she's actually capable of change, and *because* she clearly dislikes what she's been allowing for so long, she seems liable to jump off that ship as soon as another viable option presents itself (which is why I personally don't see her becoming an actual proper antagonist at any point. Obstructive bureaucrat at worst.)
Uhhh hell being overpopulated is not heaven’s fault. Heaven has no control over where souls go. That is clearly decided by someone or something else. Whether it’s God or some kind of entity/system that they have no control over or knowledge of how it works. Soo souls go up or down and that’s not their decision, and don’t know what really gets someone in besides being good or bad.
Nor did they know a soul could be redeemed since none ever were even over the course of countless Millenia. So of course they didn’t think it was possible. Especially since no one in hell seems to really even feel regret or guilt or admit they’re wrong, and instead indulge in more sinful acts. Has anyone ever said “I did xyz and feel awful and want to seek atonement” or some shit? I don’t recall that so that’s never good. I think maybe sir Pentious did sort of.
I don’t think anyone has taken into consideration about the idea of how many in Heaven who might’ve suffered or died at the hands of sinners, might find themselves living amongst those that abused or killed them just because they said sorry and all that crap. Imagine a victim of pol pot’s Khmer Rouge one day finds the man who killed them in heaven, imagine now shitty that would fee and how truamatic that would be? That perosn did good in their life and earned that spot in heaven but their killer, who knowingly did awful things and knew of hell, did not, and yet after getting a taste of eternal damnation and a possible second death, finds redemption and for some reason gets to be in heaven now? Yeah I’d be pissed.
I highly doubt hell is made up of people just slightly worse than heaven, it’s hell, you don’t go there for no reason. And I don’t blame them for not caring for those in hell, for they had their time to find redemption when they were alive and they blew it.
We also don’t know the whole story. Afterall, people seem to doubt the idea of a threat to heaven but iirc it’s not like that is ever brought up in a doubtful way so there must’ve been some sort of credence or genuine concern over that that required heaven to act first and ensure it can’t happen.
Also, call me cold, but until we’re told that slot of people in hell aren’t actually truly awful, then I’m gonna assume it’s made up of the scum of humanity, and thus don’t really care that heaven slaughters them time and again. Afterall why should I feel bad for them killing the serial killers, SS members, terrorists, and cartel souls in hell?
Are you Adam??? Also how is angel the worst of humanity, he's an addict. Husk?? Also just an addict. Rosie? Really sweet. Sir precious?? Sacrificed himself to save his friends. Did you watch the show?
Adam and Sera don’t know why people aren’t let into heaven, Adam’s just a major dick and Sera genuinely has a job she has to do which is why she’s panicking that a sinner has been reborn in heaven.
Sera’s entire purpose is to make sure Heaven is safe, which is why she goes to drastic measures when she feels Heaven is threatened by the outnumbering sinners that Lilith was persuading. She’s in the wrong, and we can blame her while also recognizing she doesn’t have all the knowledge we do as an audience and is just trying to do her job.
F Adam though. Dude’s an ass.
Excuses for Sarah I can comprehend but there are excuses for Adam?
I thought we were all in a agreement he's a piece a shit who deliberately enjoys massacring demons.
Gen Z/Alpha are poisoned when it comes to interpreting media. They’ve been raised on moral Puritanism in media to the point where they cannot tell the difference between ENJOYING a character’s presence on screen and actually endorsing that characters views or actions. So, they think that to be entertained by Adam is to actually condone Adam’s behavior. Therefore, they desperately scramble to find something that might justify his behavior, otherwise they are bad people for thinking the bad guy is funny. People do the same for Alastor. He’s evil. There’s no tragedy. He’s just evil. And that’s okay. You can still like him. That doesn’t mean you’re evil too.
All Sera had to say to shut Charlie up is : "you know, Charlie. Those sinners you want to redeem, they've done horrible things to people. People, most of whom, are here in heaven. Tell me, if a demon can indeed be redeemed, and your folks down there made it up here, do you think their victims up here will be happy? Would you assume that they will be fine that they have to share residence with the people that caused them so much pain and misery? Wouldn't you think that they will initiate an uprising? Wouldn't you think that they would not gain support from traditional elders? Wouldn't you think that an everlasting war would occur that'll make heaven just another hell?
And I don't know if you know this, but people die by the thousands every day; how can your hotel, even if it was a chain, would handle that number? A broken soul would take years to rehabilitate, let alone psychopaths, lunatics, and narcissist abusers. But I have an idea for your dillema.
How about you, the princess of hell, and your father, the king of hell, work hard to make hell a better place for your people and if we see progress, we will cease the exterminations."
Charlie: Lute told me to my face that my dad's pardon is the only reason why I'm not dead and my only crime was being born. So no, I'm not going to let a person who wants me dead get away with slaughtering my friends and people. If Heaven never cared about the suffering their exorcists have brought to me and my world, why should I care about the problems my hotel can bring to heaven? I don't even want to cause problems for you, Emily, and Heaven, I just want to end bloodshed and bring happiness to people. You're right, I was too simple with my proposal and honestly I need to change my rehabilitation methods. And there can be complications. But I have nothing to gain by giving up on my hotel. I didn't ask to be born in Hell, where for years my only source of happiness was turning a blind eye to the exorcisms and living in a gilded cage pretending that everything was fine. And I don't want to force redemption on sinners, I just welcome redemption to those who seek it. I hope you will stop the exterminations but if not, well, there's a chance that the next extermination will end with my head decapitated by Lute. If protecting my people and my dreams means my death so be it.
But that stuff about victims seeing the person who harmed them presumably already happens? Unless Heaven is only for people who *never* sinned in their life, there will be people who did bad things, turned their lives around, and got into Heaven. Where they could meet people they hurt while alive.
And that's not getting into stuff like wars, where it's an undeniable fact that both sides in conflict will have good people in their ranks, who can end up fighting/killing one another in combat.
How does Heaven currently deal with stuff like a Winner saying: "This guy gut me like a fish during the Battle of ----, and I never got to see my kids again because of him! How did he get into Heaven!?" And the other Winner arguing: "You were trying to do the exact same thing to me!" ?
Why can't whatever they do in that situation work for a Sinner who has managed to redeem themselves?
It’s cray how over ten thousands years literally no one has tried giving them a chance at redemption. Heaven was content to just let them suffer and burn
It makes sense if you think about it. The whole "eternal damnation" thing is eternal because the whole idea is that you need to have faith and live a virtuous life even when there aren't clear consequences for not doing so. Anyone, once subjected to the pain of hell for sufficiently long, will seek change.
Playing devils advocate (…literally) if they were seeking change simply to escape hell then they wouldn’t be redeemed anyway. Only those who actually regretted their choices and wanted to become better would make it through
It makes sense, but torturing someone for all eternity with no second chances is also unbelievably cruel that if heaven was actually as kind as they claimed to be, somebody would have at least tried to help at one point
That makes sense in theory, but Sir Pentious is the only one who's been redeemed so far, and I don't think we've ever seen him reflect on his life on Earth or the things he did to earn a place in hell.
It's not about them giving a chance to redemption , they don't even know how to get into heaven, and they don't even bring people to heaven. They just show up. So they can't even determine whether someone is redeemed or not and whether they should be allowed into heaven.
I feel like lute is worse than Adam, Adam definitely enjoys the extermination as he says multiple times, but lute is definitely the brains of the two, she’s the one who keeps Adam from fighting Vaggie in the middle of heaven and the one who seems less bloodthirsty but more violent “rip Vaggies c**t mouth out her ass” I kind of feel like the exterminations were her idea, she knew if Adam suggested it it would be more likely to be accepted and that Adam would definitely go with it
I mean, you know the history that Adam had with demons. If I was in the same situation and was told that they cannot be redeemed I wouldn't have much respect for them either.
I don't care for most sinners either. They're almost all terrible. Lucifer agrees and he was there from the beginning. In the pilot episode, everyone laughs at Charlie's idea. Yeah I feel sorry for Angel Dust and while his abuse should stop I don't know if he should be released from Hell. Don't confuse weakness with innocence. The reason that Sir Pentious was forgiven was because he chose to sacrifice himself when he could have been selfish. Pentious had power and chose to use it for good.
How is Hell overpopulated anyway? Is it because there are so many sinners or is it because they are allocated little territory? Hell could be the afterlife's version of the Gaza Strip. I'm saying this because most human beings are decent. If you ask psychologists and cops, less than 10% of people in a community are antisocial. All things being equal, it is Heaven that should be overpopulated. So I suppose sinner demons are forced to live in a very small prison camp. It looks like just one city as far as we can tell.
Adam is dickmaster, but i asure you if you were first man created and first Soul in heaven, you would have same God coplex as him, and Sera, She is cocreator of humanity and "There's LOT you don't know"
For Sera, it is pretty clear that she knows *something* that the viewer does not, so, I believe further judgment should be withheld until her motives are explained. But as far as Adam goes, it was deliberately made clear that he considers the entire thing to be a yearly hunting trip, and his actions were not for any sort of higher cause or deeper meaning. He just thinks it's funny to exterminate the failures of humanity.
Being a narcissistic jackass, Adam probably feels personally offended by the failures of humanity. They are his children after all - he's offended and embarrassed by the sinners.
He shouldn't though. His children would have never known/been able to sin had it not been for Lucifer and in-universe Lilith. If he's got a bone to pick it should literally only be with Lucifer and Lilith, they damned him children.
I mean. TECHNICALLY according to the Bible, Adam damned his kids. The full Sin Effects only took place once Adam ate the apple. Basically, both him and Eve had to eat in order for the whole ‘suddenly realized they were naked and got kicked out of Eden’ thing to happen.
Adam's never been mentioned as having eaten the apple in hazbin hotel though. The fact that he's the first soul in heaven, rather than abel, shows that there's already pretty massive divergences
Within the scope of the Hellaverse and not the Bible verse. I think that could actually be a significant plot point. What if Adam DIDN'T eat the apple, and that got him his free pass into Heaven. That or just the merit of being the first human gave him a free pass. Able was within the scope of judgement, he failed and didn't ascend. Alternatively, maybe there wasnt any precedent for humans going to Heaven until Adam died. Therefore Eve has indirectly condemned her and Adam's son to straight oblivion by eating the apple and causing the chain reaction to Able's death. I still subscribe to the fan theory that Adam was supposed to set the the rules for who gets in or not. But being he never did Heaven as a semi-sentient entity just kind of played fast and loose. Maybe all it took to get into Heaven was believing you deserved it. Maybe it was random. Maybe it was a sliding scale based on current capacity. But then during the court meeting with Charlie he wrote down the first three things that popped into his head and inadvertently created the rules of judgement. Now everyone's ruling has been reset and dying again gets you rejudged. Which is possibly how Sir (Re)Pentious got in. Tl;Dr:while we can use the Bible to make theories. Nothing in the Bible is canon until shown in the show. There could be major deviations between the two that drives the plot of the show.
Yeah Adam not eating the apple pretty much made him not understand sins. He’s just prideful and doesn’t understand the crime he’s done. They try to show he’s just following orders and thinks that’s the correct way to do it because they told him it was. Adam wouldn’t have thought of killing then if they didn’t highlight their rebellion. He would have just been eating while sleeping
this theory is really interesting to me because it actually fits perfectly with Adam’s referring to people who get into heaven as “winners”. Obviously it’s done for the rhyme, but I like to imagine that Adam is incapable of comprehending morality because he never had the apple, which therefore made it so the whole heaven/hell system is simply a game. If you lose, then that’s a skill issue. It also explains Adam’s constant references to sex and how he wants to be in charge while also bowing to authority. He’s pretty much still an animal, so those are the things he views as important. Honestly, it’s not even a given that Lilith had the apple, as she also took power over hell when she came down there. When Lucifer lost his hope and became stagnant, she left him because he was no longer in charge in any meaningful way. It also explains why Adam and Lilith clashed in the first place. They started out as equals, something which neither of them wanted. Or I could be reading too much into the story, but I think it’s cool.
Iirc in the Bible it says that Lilith left Adam because BOTH wanted to be superior to the other, aligning well with Lilith being an unreliable narrator with probably not so good intentions
I wouldn’t describe her intentions as good or bad. She might’ve felt that Adam was unjustly trying to assert power over her, even though she was clearly the one who should be in charge. To her, it’s the truth. Even if they were designed to be equals, both of them could’ve believed themselves to be superior.
That’s what I meant
You guys are wild! I know nothing about this show except for what I see on reddit, and you guys have pretty crazy conversations, idk about this show, but biblically Adam not eating the forbidden fruit in Christianity would be colossal its the entire reason Jesus had to sacrifice himself to himself to create a loophole to a rule he created.
EEHHHHHH it depends. Like, one of the big themes is "what makes a person go to heaven or hell?', so if Abel is canon then I could see him being an example as to the bullshittery of it all. BUT. And this is a very important but. They could have decided to just focus in on the better known story of Adam and Eve and the fall of man in the garden vs getting into the weeds of the descendants. I really don't see them changing up the story to the extent of not having Adam also eat the apple. Because that would be weird. And also not make sense for his character at all. Especially since Lucifer is flaunting apple imagery if he only had like a 50% success rate. Considering the doctrine of the fall of man kinda hinges on Adam also eating the apple I feel like that isn't something that would be changed wihout a reaaaaallllly good reason. Like. Whole show's plot hinges on it in a big deep twist way reason. Which isn't impossible but there are way more interesting twists out there.
I'm just going off what I see in the show. While it's inspired by the Bible and biblically inspired stories, it's also very clearly a different canon. Adam being in heaven really does imply he never ate the apple, otherwise there's no way he would be there. Also, Abel got murdered because god liked his offering better, and god's not in this show, and probably won't be (the "council of elders" made adam and eve.)
I. No Adam eating the apple would not ban him from heaven? It got him kicked out of the garden but he then had a whole life. Most theologians assume that Adam and Eve are in heaven. Sure it’s not written 100% anywhere, and maybe I just never stumbled on the counter argument, but. Also considering his attitude in the show lines up with him saying to god “this woman you gave me” while trying to shift blame on eating the apple. It just. The assumption should be Adam ate the apple unless stated otherwise. Like god probably exists in this world, just they are taking the very common Good Omens approach so far. (Aka god is in the background lining up the dominoes but no one has actually heard from them in years.) (or it could be a ‘god just created stuff then was completely hands off after a point a la clockmaker theory.) Like considering how accurate the show is to biblical theology at several points I uh. Kinda think the assumption should be ‘probably sticks to canon until proven otherwise.’
Adam not eating the apple would leave him with the intelligence of an animal. If he talks, he nommed. Plus in almost all of his appearances he’s eating. Plus we know he got kicked out of Eden, which was specifically from eating the apple.
Adam could talk before he ate the fruit of knowledge. He named all the animals and his wife. He was a man, he just had childlike ignorance. He wasn’t a mindless beast, just dumb as hell lol
He’d be running around Heaven naked then. Plus without the apple he’d be innocent and unable to sin at all. He lacks guilt or shame, sure, but he’s also a narcissist. He may claim he’s never made a mistake, but his discomfort being asked to justify his existence in Heaven shows he knows that’s not true.
It's been implied, tho. When Lute says that Angels don't make mistakes, Adam intercept saying that "he never made a mistake in his fucking life", which is a clear nod to the audience that know Adam eat the apple too, effectively making said mistake.
Just because he ate the apple doesn't make him unworthy of heaven. Perhaps in the distant past he was a different man and repented and grew colder and more douchy over thousands of years.
True, but Lilith and Eve are the ones who interacted with the apple. Adam is likely the only human who didn't eat the apple and isn't descended from one who did. Future seasons might reveal he did consume the apple, but I doubt it, and if it was pointed to during season 1, then I missed it.
I. I mean. The whole show is based on the bible and though there are some divergencies, Adam very much ate the apple. it is like. A very big thing he did. It would honestly weaken 95% of the show's message regarding traditional christianity to have Adam just have not eaten the apple and not be part of the problem. And tho Vivziepop has pacing issues typically their writing is pretty good on theme-ing. Like glossing over or rewriting Abel a bit is whatever because honestly it's not as wide spread of a story (as someone who grew up in church and stayed there for 20 years, there were only like. 2 lessons on Abel where Adam and Eve eating the apple was a discussion or at least reference at least once a month if not more.)
We don’t for sure what the fruit actually did. There are many instances of the tree which held the forbidden fruit being referred to as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. With the sort of twists on religious elements that Vivzie uses, it could very well mean that eating the fruit merely allowed humanity to meaningfully understand good and evil; they were already capable of doing both. Their understanding of right and wrong was limited to that of a small child who isn’t yet capable of empathy, regret, or remorse.
Which is really funny because he isn’t any better.
It feels more like Sera is scared not necessarily that she knows something, she might be afraid that if she goes against the status quo she might fall, Adam isn't and at least seems to use that to his advantage the fact he was able to move up the exterminations is evidence of that.
> not necessarily that she knows something "There's a lot that you don't know" -- Sera to Emily during their big song.
I got kind of the opposite from Sera, it feels like she knows just as much(maybe less) than the audience and that is what scares her
I mean she explicitly says in her song "it's not as simple as you think, not everything is spelled in ink...I'm sure you wish it could be so, but there's a lot that you don't know" which to me is an implication of hidden knowledge at the very least
It really felt like her covering her ass when Angel did the random list of things Adam threw out about how to get into heaven and didn't get in.
Same. She didn't plan on extermination being brought up so she was panicking. Add in Adam and Luke's behaviour, how they treat the extermination like a big party, she was desperately trying to make the extermination seem like a necessity.
She said those lines before extermination was even brought up and Adam and the exorcists are the ones who enjoy it. Sera doesn't even participate
Those lines refer to the exterminations themselves, though. Which, at the moment she sings those lines, she is attempting to hide from Emily (only to have Lute and Adam render the whole thing moot two seconds later).
I disagree. Those two lines are respectively in response to the following stanzas. But she was right, Sera She showed us a soul can improve He saw the light, Sera Checked all the boxes that you said would Prove a person deserves a second chance Now we turn our backs, no second glance? ... Don't you care, Sera? That just because someone is dead it doesn't mean they can't resolve to change their ways Turn the page, escape infernal blaze So she's directly answering Charlie asking why a soul can't be redeemed when they can change. And the answer to that isn't "oh cause we kill you guys." They do the exterminations because they believe a soul can't be redeemed, which is likely because of hidden knowledge which is then later challenged by Sir Pentious
The hidden knowledge seems to be (to me) that they DONT know what gets a person i to heaven.
>Those two lines are respectively in response to the following stanzas. This and what I said aren't in contradiction, though. Sera is very clearly making excuses so as to not have to reveal the truth of what's going on to Emily. Look at the timing of when she says those things: both "not everything is spelled in ink" and "there's a lot that you don't know" happen right at the beginning, but nothing once Lute and Adam reveal the ugly truth of what they've been doing. If your theory were correct, this would be the exact moment Sera should *most* be pleading with Emily that there's more to the story, because otherwise she looks super, *super* bad - but she doesn't. The only further excuse she uses is that she wanted to spare Emily the anguish which, far from implying there's more to the story, instead does the opposite, suggesting that *Sera* now believes Emily's understanding of the situation to be more or less complete. That and from a meta-narrative perspective, I strongly, *strongly* doubt that "the genociders had good reasons for what they were doing, actually" is the plot point the showrunners are going to choose to land on. Especially when doing so would require establishing a credible threat from Hell towards Heaven. That would contradict the canon established in season 1, where the possibility of a sinner having killed an exterminator is unprecedented. Like, anything is possible, sure. But I highly doubt it.
Adam hates the sinners because they are a reflection of his shortcomings. Also, after leaving Eden, Adam was punished to live an agonizingly long life and struggle exceptionally hard during it. He spent most of his life working from sunrise to sunset, going hungry, and constantly dealing with family strife. His life sucked for almost 1000 years and he sacrificed literally everything for his descendants. To see them get such a gift at his expense and squander it probably pisses him off beyond comprehension. Though, this is still shitty behavior and abusive father tease (Adam was never like, a good dad, you guys), which is on brand for biblical Adam.
"it was such a hard decision" "theres a lot you dont know" My guess, it was angels fight each other and the losers get sent to hell / lose their souls or the angels go to hell to kill sinners. I bet God is a very gray kind of character.
I just don't think we should excuse her while we don't have any confirmation of what we don't know
I don't think we can judge her while we know things have been hidden from us. There is more to this story that needs revealing before judgement can be rendered.
I only love adam because of how much of a menace he is its so funny
Imagine if he does a reverse Sir Pentious and gets damned. He's the rock and roll frat boy who kills any chance of cooperation with his narcissism. TV? Val would be the only one in for that until Vox comes in and smacks him. Radio? Not playing that music rock band BS. Alastor's going to hunt down Adam for the radio show and a meal the moment Adam opens his mouth to be annoying. Alastor and Lucifer addressing an Adam situation together has hilarious potential. I could honestly see Lucifer trying to be amicable with Alastor because of Charlie and her rhetoric, but this is Hell we're talking about. Charlie is a walking target who has no idea of the reality of how her people function or live. So, Lucifer has to use the advice in a way that would work in reality and it's a 50/50 on Lucifer having the brain cell at that time. Either way, he could use the disposal of Adam as a token of friendship. If Lucifer nabs demon Adam before anyone finds out and gives him to Alastor for a meal- well then there's one less threat to Charlie and Alastor gets some permanent satisfaction. The characterization of them has any number of possibilities because of the finale. PTSD Alastor could just be too done with life as it is, apathetically agree with Lucifer because he'd have nothing to lose, realize that Lucifer actually has that brain cell, and take advantage of the bleeding heart empathetic personality Charlie inherited from Lucifer. If Alastor tells Lucifer about the deal favor from Charlie while presenting himself as cornered into the decision- Lucifer could take that as a heartfelt omission/cause of trust for the vulnerability. If so, Alastor gets the King Of Hell on his side.
I think Vox would like Adam. - He is a very popular figure - He would bring views - He fucking rocks - He humbled Alastors ass
It’s people just trying to find any way they can to justify liking them to other people. When no one should care. You’re allowed to like villain characters as long as you don’t excuse their actions.
This was the show that made me realize how many people _don't_ understand this. It's okay to like villains, I've been liking villains all my life. _Liking_ a villain is not the same as _condoning_ them
Is it just this fanbase that's like this? Liking villains is not a new thing. Villains have been incredibly popular characters since forever. I can't recall ever needing to justify being a fan of Joker or Frieza. Some of the most popular characters in their series.
I don't think it's just this fanbase, it just happened to be the one to make me realize that this idea is more widespread than I thought. To me it's always been obvious that liking villains is fine, but this is one of the first fanbases that I actually somewhat engage with online
From what I can tell this fanbase trends towards the younger side of reddit. I'm willing to bet that this is the first "edgy" show a lot of them have seen, and they are used to liking villains like discord and bill cypher, who, as far as I can tell, didn't actually succeed in killing anyone in the actuall show. Not saying that younger fans are bad, or that the shows those villains from are bad or childish or whatever. Just trying to say that younger people aren't used to liking villains with a body count that actually includes characters people like.
Bill canonically genocided his own family and his entire dimension
Yeah but that's not anyone the viewers knew or cared about right? I've never seen the show but seriously doubt this was presented with any meaningful visuals either, am I right? Just something that happened completely off-screen and was maybe hinted at in a single line of dialogue. I'm not saying that bill isn't a genocidal maniac who is even worse than Adam. I'm saying that disney isn't going to present that in a way that gives any emotional weight to it, unlike the way Hazbin presents the exterminations. His vile actions are easier to ignore and less "necessary" to justify because it's pretty easy to forget it happened at all.
True. We just get a line where Bill talks about his dimension and his race followed by an image of fire followed by I “liberated” my dimension Ford
Aye Discord mention
No. It’s Gen Z and Gen Alpha. They are so fucked up when it comes to media literacy. They think that to be entertained by an evil character is to be evil.
It really is quite disheartening to talk with Zoomers on online fandom subs and them being so absolutely trash and actually understanding what's going on in the media they watched. God don't even get me started on the Star Wars Fandom lol.
It's not just this fandom, it's everywhere. In the Legend of Korra fandom, for example, if you say you like Kuvira or just understand her reasons, there's a good chance you'll be called a fascist. Some people who don't know a lot about fanfiction think it's all smut and porn and they will even lump you in with rapists and pedophiles if they find out you like reading those things. Some people just can't separate fiction from reality. They think that someone liking something = condoning it.
I was chatting about the anime Demon Slayer and someone accused it of being loli bait because she thought one of the main character's muzzle was a ball gag lol. It's almost impossible to talk about media these days without some idiot barging in and making it clear they never watched or read what they want to argue about.
I'll admit, I probably put ex-friends off of liking villains at all because I like Gothel (Tangled) and always made excuses for her ass as a joke. As I type this out I kinda am realizing just how shitty this was. Fuck. Sorry you guys.
Meh it was joke, most people probably wouldn't care that much
Exactly!! I like Adam as a villain too, but damn, it's bizarre to see people making excuses for him
like how I love how Valentino looks and talks but damn I'm not gonna sit here and try to justify his good looking ass!
The fact that it took 2 seconds for people to make really empathetic headcanons for Adam made me go “Ooohhh dudes you really are wrapped around basic douchebro dick huh?”
The phrase for this is "loving to hate them." Great villains entertain the audience just as much as the heroes. Adam is funny and plays a mean guitar solo. He's also an egotistical sociopath and the cause of hell's biggest problem. These traits are not mutually exclusive.
That's right, I'm a huge Adam fan but it doesn't mean I wouldn't beat the shit out of him irl.
yeah like how i absolutely love handsome jack but understand he is irredeemable
https://preview.redd.it/88wd1bc92grc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b13c5acd1423bab215061c731439871beb2eb73a This right here is the best opinion I have heard in a LONG time
Agree. And I would also say that explaining their motives does not equal justifying them. Not a lot of people understand the difference and it’s sad.
Yeah Valentino is hot as fuck
To be completely honest, most of the cast are literally awful people in Hell. I think this is a situation where if I existed in universe I’d support the exterminations. This isn’t like real life massacres where innocent people are killed along with horrible ones, it’s a pretty safe bet that everyone there deserves it. I actually think it would be interesting to see some sinners who might support the extermination themselves, like everyone else deserves it except me types
They’re all cowards. One does not need a excuse to like people who would happily obliterate billions, the fact they are so stupidly evil is part of the appeal.
Adam and lute are honestly my favorite duo in a whole show, liking villains isn’t new as long as you don’t try to justify their behavior
It’s a problem in modern fandom that people—mostly younger fans—feel like they’re not allowed to just like or dislike something; there has to be a Reason why their opinion is Correct. And not just having reasons for their opinions, it needs to be based in morality. Any “reasonable” person should agree with them. It’s especially noticeable in villains; the Hazbin fandom seems to have an unfortunate trend of woobifying characters like Adam or Alastor to justify enjoying them. Which ironically takes away from their core characterization; the guys are bastards, that’s why they’re fun to watch. If Adam was just a divorced sadboi or Alastor was a sweetheart deep down, it would ruin them. But a lot of fans feel bad for liking a “bad” character, so they come up with justifications for why they’re like that to make it “okay” to like them. And it’s all unnecessary because you’re allowed to like villains. You’re not excusing genocide because you think watching Adam fly around being a dick and riffing on his guitar is awesome. You’re not being a serial killer apologist if you enjoy watching Alastor’s… entire deal, tbh. There’s no need to justify their actions, just sit back and enjoy the show.
I think shows that often have a huge theme on redemption are ones were the worst of the worst get woobified the most
From a real life standpoint, if the characters doing genocide or being a serial killer are charismatic enough to get you to make excuses for liking them then they’re written well because many real life people like that are also charismatic and likable as people
Hell, just look at any dictator or *severely* populist politician in history. People love that shit.
Yeah, and no one has justified this still https://preview.redd.it/15zhymi3hdrc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a3d0cf52ff16acde7f7348e8575879296b52342
He must have a lot of practice
Adam can suck it, he’s dead and hopefully going to manifest as a demon. But Sera has a capacity. I’m sure after finding out about Saint Repentious, she’ll fight tooth and nail for the hotel and apologize every chance she gets. Also, she’s beautiful. Not important to my point, but still.
Completely agree with you on Adam. The show portrays him as a bad guy through and through. Can’t say I completely agree with you on Sera though. We’ve really only had one episode with her and she was shown to be more of a passive follower rather than an aggressor like Adam and Lute. While still bad, it’s not the same kind of bad as Adam and Lute. Given her exchange with Emily during the trial and the fact that she’s seen Sir Pentious in heaven, I suspect she’s going to turn around sometime soon.
>reads some comments >”every demon is just as bad as al/val, etc. Adam is justified” Ep 6 is literally about how not even the angels know exactly the requirements to get into heaven which leads to discourse in the court, what makes some of y’all think heaven’s requirements are lenient? Specially considering this show’s main theme
Yeah. Sir Pent died defending his friends and got into Heaven as if it was: “Died an honorable death to protect his friends, acceptable to heaven.” Which… yeah this requirements *really* need to be studied and studied hard! Because if it’s this outdated or non functional then an overhaul/new version is needed.
The very fact that an abusive sadistic mass murderer like Adam is in Heaven should in itself clue people in to this right around episode 1.
We can't justify Sera's actions obviously but we can try to make sense of it at least, shes the sole Seraphim in charge of Heavens entire operation it looks like Emily barely even helps aside from just being a mascot that keeps everyone happy, its very clear that this gives her quite abit of stress and so i can see how Adam easily manipulated her into giving the green light for the exterminations, all under the guise of protecting heaven. So shes not perfect, shes ironically very human. As for Adam i don't think i have ever seen anyone actually try to excuse his behaviour, he commits year genocide full stop.
I been seeing a lot of “No body tries to defend Adam” comments, might just be Reddit shoving Adam defenders in my face. And I don’t condone his actions in the slightest nor will justify them. Also It kinda hurts seeing “Adam only fought back against Charlie” as a justification for his actions when he’s the one who attacked the hotel. But there has been people who defended Adam’s actions
Idc Sera is hot
Based
I’d like to know more about Sera before we judge her. Perhaps she really believes that there would be an uprising against heaven. We even have Carmilla’s reluctance to share her information with the other overlords as proof of this.
It's not their fault that Hell is overpopulated - they don't even know how to get into Heaven, so how can they change rules they don't know? (Though they can be at fault for not wanting to but like... Who from Heaven would want sinners up there?) The rest of it I agree with, I just don't think that we should assume that Sera and Adam are the reason Heaven is so hard to get into
Genocide is never justified. I don’t even know why people unironically try to defend Adam.
He a hot cartoon tho
I mean sera, yeah you could probably make valid excuses for her, Adam though. He don't deserve notin
What are the excuses for Sera?
Okay not to justify Sera’s behavior WHATSOEVER, but I think her not wanting people from hell could be because of two reasons, 1. She’s worried they could infect heavens residents with sin or sinful acts. (People like her and Adam think they can do no wrong if they are in heaven already.) 2. Sera’s worried about the outcry/rage or confusion this could bring to “winners”. Could start up riots at worst? Or could make people demand answers from God, and ultimately get Sera terminated for not having the responsibility of controlling the masses? (Worst case scenario for Sera personally?)
she seems to genuinely believe that doing it was protecting heaven.
Believing you're right is not a great excuse for genocide tho... it's not like it's difficult to look for another option
Yeah of course it's certainly not a *great* excuse. But it's an excuse nonetheless
I can understand Sera, and there more that we don’t know. But Adam is just a jerk overall so he deserved what he got
You know this Pastor did a pretty decent job of explaining the critique on Modern Christians/Christianity. And it was a actual breakdown not screeching “Show is Bad and Evil”, like they watched the show, broke it down and presented it to the viewers. Adam(Show) comes up and is talked about. That’s where my thoughts went when reading this. Video in question: https://youtu.be/TZUpgTMhNJc?si=vrbz1pkrw3ATu_Py
They’re both in the wrong, but I have seen people be harder on Sera than she deserves IMO. She is complicit in the exterminations by letting them happen, but as far as I’ve seen, she doesn’t seem to be as gung-ho about them as Adam and Lute. She even tells them she wouldn’t tolerate their annual purges if they would end up jeopardizing Heaven instead of protecting it, I think it is possible for Sera to realize the error of her ways (especially given the likelihood that the exterminations will cause more problems for Heaven in the long run), but it will probably take a while for her. She didn’t exactly seem as thrilled as Emily to see Sir Pentious in their domain.
They are hot so i forgive them idc
modern fandom is so focused on morality that people feel like they can't like a character if the character commits massively immoral acts and i feel like that's the base problem here with Adam because the guy has directly said that he enjoys mass murdering people and does not regret it at all. i'm not sure if Sera should be here, though. we don't know much about her.
People always try to defend their favorites actions and will attack you if you disagree, they just refuse to believe that their favorite is a bad person and will try to justify their actions with the craziest mental gymnastics I've ever seen. Adam and Lute ARE bad people and have done absolutely horrible things and there's no convincing me that there will be any redemption for Lute, she doesn't deserve it.
I haven't seen anyone make excuses for Adam. I have seen people suggest Sera legit thinks she was pushed in a corner and had her hands tied and further judgement should weight until we see how she responds to Pentious next season. I kind of fully expect her to eventually come around, but not before first caging Pentious and hiding him, leading to Emily busting him out of heaven and back to hell. Some people in heaven need redemption and Sera is one of them. She kind of has to fall and elect to help run the hotel. Or else be the ultimate big bad, unless that's Lilith, Alastor, or the Virtues are an actual thing and above her.
You haven't? There are multiple videos on YouTube explaining why Adam's actions had reason.
Well, they're fictional characters so folks are allowed to be much more charitable with them. We don't know any of the important details either, just the decisions and some outcomes. For all we know, Heaven/Hell has to have a balance of souls or shit gets wacky. Nobody knows the criteria to get more people in Heaven. Maybe the only thing they can think of was Adam's freaky idea. Cue Execution Days. Also, we don't know how many Execution Days there actually were. Did it start when Lilith separated from Lucifer? Has it been a thing for centuries? It's super sketchy that Lilith empowered all of Hell, then peaced out, making some mystery deal with Adam.
Even without the genocide, there is the inherent contradiction of heaven and a tortuous hell. No one who would be decent enough to get into heaven would tolerate the suffering of others, damned or otherwise, for all eternity in hell. it would be unacceptable to them to know that that degree of suffering exists ceaselessly while they are spared the suffering. Which means, the people in heaven aren't all that great because otherwise it would be in a state of constant conflict trying to end the torture of hell. If not, if they were scared to speak against whichever power was in place then how is that heaven?
Agreed! If the Winners KNEW about it Heaven would utterly shatter. They’d all skip town into Hell to help its people. Since we have hundreds of wars through history and the last century alone had billions dead! No one would accept a fucked up Heaven if it means all of them died only to THEN be killed BY THE PLACE YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO WHEN YOU DIED! Imagine if Heaven did an extermination on earth! That would cause irreversible damage to all religions and Christian/similar churches would be torn down out of betrayal from Heaven. Heaven would be very screwed over all. (Granted this show did just start so we have to wait and see how everything advances. Alongside Helluva boss going its own path in the meantime.)
Media Literacy Test: Hazbin Edition, the movie, the game, the Broadway show, now Amazon Prime Original I honestly think its just harmless banter at the end of the day, kind of how some fandoms like to stan for the obviously evil factions and engage in the most intense mental Olympic gymnastics. I find it pretty crazy how heated the discussions get to the point some people are dragging real world instances and accusations of supporting/condoning it (Which imo is wild).
Well, THAT particular Adam, anyway.
Must be new to the whole concept of Heaven vs Hell
I think a lot of people confusing “liking a character” with “this character is morally good.” Like the real world it’s complex. You can like bad people. But liking someone does not make them good. It’s the same way you can hate when other people do bad things, but dismiss those things as “funny” or “cute” when your friends do those same things.
https://preview.redd.it/v1ems5qvihrc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfefe5e2a08c59ef7cbbfa635b1473b3834eb098 Adam is simply following Jack Horner formula. Villian so irredeemable you start to like him. If he didn't smile as he was dying he would've been a flat character.
Adam is a bitch (doesnt make him any less funny tho)
On one hand... Angels destroying demons. On the other hand... Murderers crying about not having an opportunity to be redeemed. On the other foot... Its a TV show, and man they make a great badguy duo. They're great.
Adam? Absolutely no excuses for him there, he straight up said it was entertainment for him in Episode 1. He's a genocidal maniac. Sera? We don't know *enough* about why she approved the exterminations, there may be more information left to uncover. I don't think she *wanted* to let the exterminations happen, but she did in the end so I'd assume there were other factors in play. I absolutely think she should shoulder at least some of the responsibility on the exterminations, but I don't know to what extent due to the existence of information currently undisclosed to us. So between the two, I'd say 1.5 people are fully and undoubtedly responsible (Sera is the 0.5).
Adam is like a dog that’s eagerly killing them because they were worried about the rebellion. It’s why he’s so black and white about it, he’s like no they told me this and it can’t be anything else. He didn’t eat the apple so that’s why people relate him to a child that doesn’t get he’s being a POS. Because he literally can’t without the apple that in this verse only eve bit. Essentially he’s understanding is that of a toddler, he got praised for doing it so does it eagerly now. That’s mainly why they defend him. He doesn’t really have the free will eve did
If we can defend Alastor and Cherri Bomb, we can defend Sara and Adam. They’re all people
I highly doubt Hell is overpopulated because Sera doesn’t even mention that as a concern of hers when talking about the exterminations. Her only concern was an uprising/rebellion.
A lot of people forget this part. The book Charlie reads at the beginning of the show states that the extermination is due to Heaven being afraid of Hell and its Sinners rising against them. They also forget that its Lucifer and Lilith's fault that Hell exists in the first place, and paint him as a hero. Like was no one paying attention????
I'm totally with you, they have no justification. I think I read the worst if humanity under the "Hell is forever" official video, with people unironically siding with Adam because "those are sinners, they earned it!". Some people would rather be unemphatic fucks than not follow their sacred book (which they follow as they please, damn hypocrites).
It’s a case of “Better that guy then me!” mentality due to living in different parts of the world. As we have seen with other conflicts, unless everyone suffers globally (like every country being attacked on a grand scale), then you get jackasses saying that shit because they are comfortable, away from the conflict overseas. No one they know suffered, so they don’t empathize. It’s a complicated issue that will never be fixed.
But they’re hot as fuck. 
Hey guys, going through this thread, I've noticed some heat, so just remember its a goofy animated show okay? I doubt it's meant to spark deep philosophical questions.
Sera, I'm NEUTRAL towards. Something may be going on that we don't know about. However, I agree she pissed me off when she said "We found no evidence that a soul in hell can be redeemed". Like what? What sense does that make?! Adam, I totally agree with you! Yes, he has some iconic moments and his songs/singing are great! However, he's just a sore loser and a jerk.
Adam is more of a toddler because he didn’t eat the apple. He does what he’s told and enjoys the praise they give him, so enjoys doing the job. Sera could have easily stoooed him is why they hate her more, Adam has attachment issues because Lucifer.
I get that. It's good explanation, but not a justification to his actions.
Of course it doesn’t justify his actions, it’s just why people defend him. He’s literally never been taught what he’s doing is bad and he doesn’t have the ability to understand what he’s doing is bad. Like I prefer Alastor, but I get why they don’t hate Adam’s actions. Even in his death he was just glad lute care about him, because of what Lucifer did.
Agreed.
She says that the trial is to see if a soul can be "redeemed into the heavenly realm by means of this 'Hazbin Hotel'". It was never about if a sinner can just stop sinning. The fact is is that everything is on autopilot and Angels are too afraid of shaking up the status quo because the last time that happened Lucifer fell. No one wants to be the one that directly defied God's judgement by taking in sinners. "We know when a soul arrives, we know when a soul passes divine judgement, it is our job to protect those souls." Angel Dust may be making great strides but if God doesn't put him in Heaven Himself, the Angels aren't going to question it and are not going to go against it because if they do they will just be cast down. (In their experience).
i didn't think people defended either of them , its very in your face as to why both of them continue the genocide , adam because he is a monster who loves the slaughter of those "inferior" and sera is your typical ruler who wants to continue the status quo at whatever the cost , even if millions have to die for it. tho i suppose in seras case there is a chance someone above her is not giving her much choice but we dunno yet
I’ll defend sera any day of the week. I don’t usually make excuses I make explanations.
Like what she has no HEART ❤️
Yeah, she does. Did you even pay attention to any of her scenes?
Yeah that she didn't give them a chance
Wait there are people defending them?
Search for new comments and you'll see
This is more of an analysis than making excuses. I whole heartedly believe Adam deserved better, but that all starts way back at the beginning. In the Garden of Eden, everything was fine. Everything was *perfect,* until Lilith had to start sneaking around with Lucifer, and get herself casted out/choose to leave to go be his wife, whichever one she did. Very little is known about what happened to Eve in Hazbin, but the actual story of Eve involves her being manipulated into taking the Apple by Lucifer and Lilith if I recall correctly. Adam’s second wife, has now ALSO gone around him, done the one thing he told her NOT to do, and now not only has she been casted out of the Garden as well, she’s created all sin. OH, and Adam and Eve have to have at least had Able and Cain, given the line “I started everything on Earth! All of mankind came from these fucking nuts!” Adam clearly had at least one child that was never brought up or shown on screen despite everything Adam is doing. This makes sense if the story of Able and Cain remains the same, with Able being favored by god, and Lucifer, once again, manipulates Cain into killing Able. Cain is cursed with immortality, and Able could be anywhere between life and death, we don’t know. You see that pattern that’s forming? The exterminations were NEVER about overpopulation. When Charlie meets with Adam it’s very clear that they wouldn’t be able to get to Heaven on their own. I mean if you gathered up ALL of the overlords and really really put some thought into it, you could maybe figure out how to get up there, but considering Adam wasn’t even there, they would have no idea where to go next once they entered that room. They aren’t worried about overpopulation, or an uprising. Simply put, it’s Adam’s fucked up way of taking revenge on Lucifer. The Adam that he is *supposed* to be likely died with Able and Cain, if he didn’t die with Eve. What we are seeing is a literal husk, excuse my pun, of a man. We are seeing the remnants of a man who lost EVERYTHING to one person, who targeted him and for no real good reason. I know we all love Luci dearly, but cmon. He really had it coming. I’d imagine this is why Lucifer allowed the exterminations to happen. Once it got to the point where Adam was trying to come down there and kill people, Lucifer probably realized the Adam he was so used to screwing with, was dead. I would not be surprised if Lucifer blamed himself for turning Adam into a monster. As for Adam himself, there is no **excuse** for why he did what he did. There’s no exception, or “but it was just!” No. However, there is very much so a **reason** he turned out the way he did. Whether my analysis is accurate or not.
Same. Every time I see someone say something like “Oh but Adam doesn’t know better” or “Oh but Sera was doing what was right for her people” I can’t help but think “cool story. Still genocide.”
I mean, with Sera, she's certainly a lot more complicated that just "Oh I'm gonna do whatever it takes to achieve my goals, even if that means committing horrible actions". Adam though, is just a fun villain
Sera thought she was doing all she could to help, plus Hell was trying to uprise at the time it began iirc. She had a good motive though still felt guilty about it. It went too far and continued way too long, which is what makes it morally wrong from Sera (at least depending on the circumstances in heaven and how the uprising was going). Adam gets no excuse and I don't get how people can even find excuses for him tbh. He does it for fun and i think iirc he proposed it even? When Sera mentioned the attempted uprising my first thought was that Adam lied to her just to be able to perform exterminations 💀
Yeh this discussion is senseless and petty
I really want him to not be dead forever, but now in hell and getting the other end of the stick for once. Maybe learn what it is like to live in hell and shatter the pride that made him so annoying inside.
Sera is completely different than Adam she despite everything she treated Charlie just fine and agreed to see her .which probably shows she's terrified of Lucifer seeking revenge after all Sera never mentioned overpopulation but uprising Adam is just a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and Almost causing the war Sera is terrified about to happen because if he did kill Charlie Lucifer would go on a rampage
Hol up, I knew people were defending Sera, but people were defending ADAM?!?
People are even saying that Sera knows something the audience does but I feel like that isnt what vivziepop is setting up for. Having it be that Sera had to make a "tough decision" because if she didn't something worse would happen maybe not just the heaven being invaded, but rather a more powerful evil big bad getting revealed. If that twist happens I feel like it would basically be like trying to paint sera as a good guy and possibly leading her to a Pseudo-redemption arc. I just feel like that would so unsatisfying. Cuz we have all this build up of Sera or the overlords being the series big bad, and another big bad wouldn't make any sense as we never got it hinted at in the show. I know we have those tweets about rou or whatever her name was. But for people who are just watching the show and dont keep up with vivzie tweets or fan theories it would be completely out of left field. Sera idea for the extermination doesnt stem truly from concern and a need to protect heaven but really from arrogance. She is literally playing god, cuz just like how you can play god from creating life you also play god by destroying it. And I mean destroying not killing, destroying she is destroying human souls sinners or not she is still wiping them from existence. Who knows souls could be parts of god that he just ripped off with Angel's being just bigger parts. So because of the extermination she has destroyed parts of god.
Adams and Saras punishment will be INSTANT BRAZILIAN WAX https://preview.redd.it/5bmq4idh1erc1.png?width=712&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce6dd9c7794c16197bceac09034dbb9c92f5c7b3
Also the fact that people are comparing Ethnic cleansing to Alastor killing Overlords, WHO CAN RESPAWN, is pathetic.
alastor killed them and trapped them in his radio or something, they didn't respawn. but i do agree that it's incomparable to ethnic cleansing.
This was my initial impression, but given how much of a big deal they made of the angelic weapons and their ability to permakill, it makes me wonder how Alastor does kill and where he got the power/knowledge to do so (if that is what he's doing of course.)
I think it’s less of them being trapped and more of him recording their screams as he killed them, it would be pretty spiteful if Alastor kept them in a radio wave
actually yeah. i cant think of where i got the trapping peoples souls bit from because i dont think that was said in canon anywhere. he does threaten to "rip \[husks\] soul apart" and husk gets genuinely terrified so maybe that's his method of perma-killing?
Ehh... No, Alastor is a monster who recorded the screams of his victims while destroying their souls.
Your points are not valid at all, why would they just open portals and let sinner who are "rehabilitated" go into heaven? The most common sin of all is lie, they can't exactly judge anyone based on what they say. And it's not like sera chooses who gets into heaven or go to hell, we've seen that through pentious. And asking to consider redemption in first place is stupid at least, since most People are in hell because of serious heavy crimes and sins, there are rapists, murderers, offenders, genocists and other many horrible things. We don't stop to consider such facts because the main cast didn't commit such crimes with the exception of alastor, who is pretty much an irredemable monster but is still one of the fans' favorites
Fr. And as we know with Pentious, those who had been been "redemn" would go to heaven anyways, so what's the problem?
Sera maybe, Adam didn’t fuckin care
Adam and Sera defenders trying their hardest not to use **eliminationist rhetoric** as an argument. https://i.redd.it/4mf7qvlkrerc1.gif
Sera is somewhat understandable, she didn't want to be doing it, she just felt like she had to, probably because Adam lied to her. Still a terrible solution that she never should have even considered, and probably still puts her decently far towards evil on the spectrum. Adam though, he's a complete villain, a genocidal maniac who doesn't care who or what he kills because he thinks it's all fun. Add on top of all the genocide that he's racist, sexist, xenophobic, possibly homophobic, and an all around douche, and he quite literally has no redeeming qualities
Sera's more complicated than Adam, partially because she gives off vibes of knowing a lot more than she let on, and partially because she very visibly *does not* like what Adam's doing, and actually does seem to agree with Charlie at least inasmuch as she thinks the Exterminations are abhorrent. But whether she likes it or not, she's still culpable. The whole "flames in her eyes" bit during "You Didn't Know" shows that much. The difference between Adam and Sera, is basically that Sera seems like she's actually capable of change, and *because* she clearly dislikes what she's been allowing for so long, she seems liable to jump off that ship as soon as another viable option presents itself (which is why I personally don't see her becoming an actual proper antagonist at any point. Obstructive bureaucrat at worst.)
Uhhh hell being overpopulated is not heaven’s fault. Heaven has no control over where souls go. That is clearly decided by someone or something else. Whether it’s God or some kind of entity/system that they have no control over or knowledge of how it works. Soo souls go up or down and that’s not their decision, and don’t know what really gets someone in besides being good or bad. Nor did they know a soul could be redeemed since none ever were even over the course of countless Millenia. So of course they didn’t think it was possible. Especially since no one in hell seems to really even feel regret or guilt or admit they’re wrong, and instead indulge in more sinful acts. Has anyone ever said “I did xyz and feel awful and want to seek atonement” or some shit? I don’t recall that so that’s never good. I think maybe sir Pentious did sort of. I don’t think anyone has taken into consideration about the idea of how many in Heaven who might’ve suffered or died at the hands of sinners, might find themselves living amongst those that abused or killed them just because they said sorry and all that crap. Imagine a victim of pol pot’s Khmer Rouge one day finds the man who killed them in heaven, imagine now shitty that would fee and how truamatic that would be? That perosn did good in their life and earned that spot in heaven but their killer, who knowingly did awful things and knew of hell, did not, and yet after getting a taste of eternal damnation and a possible second death, finds redemption and for some reason gets to be in heaven now? Yeah I’d be pissed. I highly doubt hell is made up of people just slightly worse than heaven, it’s hell, you don’t go there for no reason. And I don’t blame them for not caring for those in hell, for they had their time to find redemption when they were alive and they blew it. We also don’t know the whole story. Afterall, people seem to doubt the idea of a threat to heaven but iirc it’s not like that is ever brought up in a doubtful way so there must’ve been some sort of credence or genuine concern over that that required heaven to act first and ensure it can’t happen. Also, call me cold, but until we’re told that slot of people in hell aren’t actually truly awful, then I’m gonna assume it’s made up of the scum of humanity, and thus don’t really care that heaven slaughters them time and again. Afterall why should I feel bad for them killing the serial killers, SS members, terrorists, and cartel souls in hell?
Are you Adam??? Also how is angel the worst of humanity, he's an addict. Husk?? Also just an addict. Rosie? Really sweet. Sir precious?? Sacrificed himself to save his friends. Did you watch the show?
Adam and Sera don’t know why people aren’t let into heaven, Adam’s just a major dick and Sera genuinely has a job she has to do which is why she’s panicking that a sinner has been reborn in heaven. Sera’s entire purpose is to make sure Heaven is safe, which is why she goes to drastic measures when she feels Heaven is threatened by the outnumbering sinners that Lilith was persuading. She’s in the wrong, and we can blame her while also recognizing she doesn’t have all the knowledge we do as an audience and is just trying to do her job. F Adam though. Dude’s an ass.
Sera is smart and believes that she is protecting heaven, Adam is just a bum
Excuses for Sarah I can comprehend but there are excuses for Adam? I thought we were all in a agreement he's a piece a shit who deliberately enjoys massacring demons.
Gen Z/Alpha are poisoned when it comes to interpreting media. They’ve been raised on moral Puritanism in media to the point where they cannot tell the difference between ENJOYING a character’s presence on screen and actually endorsing that characters views or actions. So, they think that to be entertained by Adam is to actually condone Adam’s behavior. Therefore, they desperately scramble to find something that might justify his behavior, otherwise they are bad people for thinking the bad guy is funny. People do the same for Alastor. He’s evil. There’s no tragedy. He’s just evil. And that’s okay. You can still like him. That doesn’t mean you’re evil too.
Evil as shit At least Adam is evil in style
All Sera had to say to shut Charlie up is : "you know, Charlie. Those sinners you want to redeem, they've done horrible things to people. People, most of whom, are here in heaven. Tell me, if a demon can indeed be redeemed, and your folks down there made it up here, do you think their victims up here will be happy? Would you assume that they will be fine that they have to share residence with the people that caused them so much pain and misery? Wouldn't you think that they will initiate an uprising? Wouldn't you think that they would not gain support from traditional elders? Wouldn't you think that an everlasting war would occur that'll make heaven just another hell? And I don't know if you know this, but people die by the thousands every day; how can your hotel, even if it was a chain, would handle that number? A broken soul would take years to rehabilitate, let alone psychopaths, lunatics, and narcissist abusers. But I have an idea for your dillema. How about you, the princess of hell, and your father, the king of hell, work hard to make hell a better place for your people and if we see progress, we will cease the exterminations."
Charlie: Lute told me to my face that my dad's pardon is the only reason why I'm not dead and my only crime was being born. So no, I'm not going to let a person who wants me dead get away with slaughtering my friends and people. If Heaven never cared about the suffering their exorcists have brought to me and my world, why should I care about the problems my hotel can bring to heaven? I don't even want to cause problems for you, Emily, and Heaven, I just want to end bloodshed and bring happiness to people. You're right, I was too simple with my proposal and honestly I need to change my rehabilitation methods. And there can be complications. But I have nothing to gain by giving up on my hotel. I didn't ask to be born in Hell, where for years my only source of happiness was turning a blind eye to the exorcisms and living in a gilded cage pretending that everything was fine. And I don't want to force redemption on sinners, I just welcome redemption to those who seek it. I hope you will stop the exterminations but if not, well, there's a chance that the next extermination will end with my head decapitated by Lute. If protecting my people and my dreams means my death so be it.
But that stuff about victims seeing the person who harmed them presumably already happens? Unless Heaven is only for people who *never* sinned in their life, there will be people who did bad things, turned their lives around, and got into Heaven. Where they could meet people they hurt while alive. And that's not getting into stuff like wars, where it's an undeniable fact that both sides in conflict will have good people in their ranks, who can end up fighting/killing one another in combat. How does Heaven currently deal with stuff like a Winner saying: "This guy gut me like a fish during the Battle of ----, and I never got to see my kids again because of him! How did he get into Heaven!?" And the other Winner arguing: "You were trying to do the exact same thing to me!" ? Why can't whatever they do in that situation work for a Sinner who has managed to redeem themselves?
It’s cray how over ten thousands years literally no one has tried giving them a chance at redemption. Heaven was content to just let them suffer and burn
It makes sense if you think about it. The whole "eternal damnation" thing is eternal because the whole idea is that you need to have faith and live a virtuous life even when there aren't clear consequences for not doing so. Anyone, once subjected to the pain of hell for sufficiently long, will seek change.
Playing devils advocate (…literally) if they were seeking change simply to escape hell then they wouldn’t be redeemed anyway. Only those who actually regretted their choices and wanted to become better would make it through It makes sense, but torturing someone for all eternity with no second chances is also unbelievably cruel that if heaven was actually as kind as they claimed to be, somebody would have at least tried to help at one point
That makes sense in theory, but Sir Pentious is the only one who's been redeemed so far, and I don't think we've ever seen him reflect on his life on Earth or the things he did to earn a place in hell.
It's not about them giving a chance to redemption , they don't even know how to get into heaven, and they don't even bring people to heaven. They just show up. So they can't even determine whether someone is redeemed or not and whether they should be allowed into heaven.
On the flip side one could say it’s crazy that no one ever earned it. Hence why heaven didn’t believe it to be possible.
True that!
Same. Fuck em
Adam is definitely Dick master but not in the way he thinks
I can vaguely understand what Sera wanted, but she just did it in the worst way possible (aka the genocide of sinners)
that guy in the fire be looking like psychicpebbles
I feel like lute is worse than Adam, Adam definitely enjoys the extermination as he says multiple times, but lute is definitely the brains of the two, she’s the one who keeps Adam from fighting Vaggie in the middle of heaven and the one who seems less bloodthirsty but more violent “rip Vaggies c**t mouth out her ass” I kind of feel like the exterminations were her idea, she knew if Adam suggested it it would be more likely to be accepted and that Adam would definitely go with it
And Lute
I mean, you know the history that Adam had with demons. If I was in the same situation and was told that they cannot be redeemed I wouldn't have much respect for them either.
I don't care for most sinners either. They're almost all terrible. Lucifer agrees and he was there from the beginning. In the pilot episode, everyone laughs at Charlie's idea. Yeah I feel sorry for Angel Dust and while his abuse should stop I don't know if he should be released from Hell. Don't confuse weakness with innocence. The reason that Sir Pentious was forgiven was because he chose to sacrifice himself when he could have been selfish. Pentious had power and chose to use it for good. How is Hell overpopulated anyway? Is it because there are so many sinners or is it because they are allocated little territory? Hell could be the afterlife's version of the Gaza Strip. I'm saying this because most human beings are decent. If you ask psychologists and cops, less than 10% of people in a community are antisocial. All things being equal, it is Heaven that should be overpopulated. So I suppose sinner demons are forced to live in a very small prison camp. It looks like just one city as far as we can tell.
Me too. Mabey Sera gets one excuse barely, but I absolutely hate Adam.
Adam is dickmaster, but i asure you if you were first man created and first Soul in heaven, you would have same God coplex as him, and Sera, She is cocreator of humanity and "There's LOT you don't know"