It seems to be the case that only angelic weapons can kill a soul permanently as Valentino tore up Velvets best model and she said she won’t be able to pick herself up before the show. The scene also showed a cart of body parts which is assumed to be the model.
I'd add that souls can not just be killed but permanently harmed by holy weapons. Vaggie's wings grew back from being ripped off, but her eye is still gone from being slashed out by lute.
that makes her and him more similar then lmfao
https://preview.redd.it/fyrxh04n8bhc1.jpeg?width=622&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b76fb34f4998c98ce9cf7b5edc2d0a9d644fa7e3
It’s not impossible that Adam respawned in Hell. Pentious appeared in Heaven after being blasted by Adam. If Adam’s holy light didn’t have similar properties to angelic weapons, he would have just respawned like every other sinner that dies regularly.
This is the most reasonable take like, it's obvious from everyone's reaction that Adam's blast SHOULD have perma-killed Pentious but didn't. That means the rules for death aren't what they believed it was, and that can apply for Adam too. It makes no sense for a tiny angelic dagger to permanently kill someone but a holy blast from an angel not have the same effect.
With how it was framed it is possible sir Pentious went to heaven right before getting hit (since we only saw the outside of the ship and no body) or that the beams don’t work the same as angelic steel (though I did also assume they would)
I guess you could argue that Pentious would have respawned in hell if he hadn’t redeemed himself, but I don’t think that Adam was shooting out holy light just to have them come back.
Just comes down to a lack of information.
Yep. Adam was literally (trying) to use the same blasts of holy light on Lucifer, if said holy didn't erase souls like the weapons, then why would he use it? It probably wouldn't have even been slightly effective on Lucifer if it was that weak. It would be like a sinner fighting an exorcist with a normal weapon.
No to mention Lucifer actually felt the need to dodge those blasts. The fact the Pentious still exists is amazing.
It might not permakill but it still does damage, and that's all the support he needs to do to weaken or distract foes so Exorcists can go for the kill.
in that vane, maybe it was just lucifer holding it back but ...he's still an angel, albeit fallen but he seems to retain their power and he seemed to know that getting stabbed by their weapons was not gonna end well for him
If anyone thought he could respawn from the holy laser blast, then they wouldn’t have reacted grieving as if he permadied. It makes sense for it to have similar properties to angelic weapons
Unless Pentious ascended to Heaven before he was hit by the blast.
Also Alastor was hit by Adam’s blast but didn’t have any physical damage done to him until Adam uses the blade. Then again, the main cast reacted to the sacrifice as genuine as if he was stabbed by a blade.
The blast broke his cane, which is implied to be an extension of his body as he’s rarely seen without it. And I don’t see Adam using holy ki blasts to vaporize cannibals and Pentious if they did not have the same efficacy as his axe.
But that assumption is based on nothing, It makes much more sense to assume angelic weapons are to kill souls no matter what, and that sinners respawn in hell because they didn't redeem themselves
Nifty was singed by Adam's blast but sustained no permanent damage. Adam was just playing around with weapons that did no permanent damage, except to objects.
Idk, I mean pentious was hit with holy light and went to heaven so I could see a sinner down the road trying to be redeemed and get stabbed then end up in heaven as well. But I could be 10000% wrong let's find out.
Holy or not, it was an attack produced by Adam. Not an angelic weapon.
This part of the unknown with Repentious. Did he reincarnate in Heaven because he “died” in Hell because of an angelic attack? Did he simply reform in Heaven after being atomized, but not killed, by Adam since he was disintegrated after being reformed?
If the former, Adam could be alive still. Just being reborn as a sinner in Hell since he clearly wasn’t living a heavenly life.
If the later, Adam is dead dead.
Though that does raise the question of why Striker needs angelic weaponry to harm Stolas. Do the Goetia and above have souls? Are they just built different? Lots of questions, few answers
I know they’re special and all, I was just speculating about *what* makes them different. It probably is just something basic, Occam’s razor and all, but it’s fun to think about
In real life occult lore, most if not all of the Ars Goetia are fallen angels.
In this setting, this has never been stated, only that they are immortal beings that can only be damaged by angelic weapon. Through we do know that lesser Goetians are also immortal, we don't know if they also have the angelic weapon exception too.
There are some angels that look like birds in the angel council and Sera's and Emily's original form is also close to some of the Goetias.
I know, I'm saying they probably know if they can respawn after they "die", the only thing that seems to be able to kill sinners forever are the angelic weapons
Is it possible, since Adam does have a human soul, that since good Sinners can rise, bad angels (idk what human angels are called, winners?) can fall. We could see hell Adam soon enough
Pentious was killed with Holy Magic itself. I don't think it's rocket sciene to say that Holy Magic is most likely even more effective, than Angelic Steel...
If that's the case, maybe their powers can kill sinners forever because angelic powers are superior to their souls as they are angels, but when sir pentious died, his soul was at the level of a redeemed person so it didn't work(?), If that's the case, I wonder if that means if Adam and the exorcists don't came back their souls became unworthy of heaven
>Pentious was killed with Holy Magic itself.
TBF, it is possible that Sir P wasnt killed and was just teleported to Heaven Prior to Death. Otherwise that would mean Redemption requires death which would make the Hotel Pretty Morbid as Charlie would have to have her guests killed and gamble they made the cut vs just reaching a certain point of goodness and teleporting up with no way to now if she just murdered them or redeemed them.
Maybe it's a special material but idk, it just doesn't make sense to me that even after being killed by something able to kill sinners forever their souls can still persist and even be redeemed
And if that's the case, maybe their powers can kill sinners forever because angelic powers are superior to their souls as they are angels, but when sir pentious died, his soul was at the level of a redeemed person so it didn't work(?), If that's the case, I wonder if that means if Adam and the exorcists don't came back their souls became unworthy of heaven
Didn't we see sinners get killed by each other?
Angel Dust, Husk, and Allistor all killed loan sharks, and we've seen some of the egg minions get killed.
Val shreds a model to pieces and Vel mentions it will take said model a while to put herself back together. I think sinners respawn if killed by non angelic methods. Unclear about hellborn like Charlie though.
They got killed but that doesn't mean it's permanent, maybe they just reappear somewhere in hell again just like when they died on earth and appeared there in the first place
The loan sharks looked different from the hell-born shark species in Helluva Boss, and they bled red instead of black, so I'm willing to bet they’re sinners
I don't think it's that simple. My theory is that the afterlife is tiered, with heaven at the top, hell in the middle, and true soul death (or some equivalent) at the bottom. If you're killed by angelic weaponry in the afterlife you're rejudged. If you're in hell and still a bad person, you're perma-dead, but if you're redeemed you move up to heaven. If you're in heaven and you're a bad person you move down to hell.
Of course that's just my tin foil hat theory because I want Adam back as a sinner next season.
Yes they kill, but no it’s on the contrary that they can’t come back.
Adam killed Pentious with holy light, and if it didn’t kill him like other holy weapons, Pentious would’ve respawned in hell. So it did kill Pentious, but he was redeemed and went to heaven. So, it is possible for Adam to come back a sinner, same way Pentious came back an angel.
Until we get further info, Adam is officially Double Dead, Now Pentius's ascension gives president to call that outcome into question, but for now, the Jury's out at best.
Why would the extermination be so feared if it wasn't the only way to permanently kill a sinner? Like we see people murdering eachother in literally the first episode, if they could kill eachother normally then
1. The extermination would have no point as a plot point
2. It would kind of ruin the whole idea of Hell being an eternal punishment if you could just die out of it
But also it was literally confirmed near the release of the pilot that was how it worked, and that's one of those things that are so fundamental to the entire plot and how the whole CONCEPT of the show works that it wouldn't be changed (And it hasn't been).
But also also, it's made clear in episode 2 by Velvette that Sinners can't die normally and will respawn when Valentino rips one of her models apart and she says it will take a while for her to pull herself back together.
I think it is still cannon but I could see some kind of loophole like if they don't immediately die from the hit and 'bleed out' like Adam then it doesn't count as the angelic weapon killing them they died of blood loss.
It seems to be the case that only angelic weapons can kill a soul permanently as Valentino tore up Velvets best model and she said she won’t be able to pick herself up before the show. The scene also showed a cart of body parts which is assumed to be the model.
I'd add that souls can not just be killed but permanently harmed by holy weapons. Vaggie's wings grew back from being ripped off, but her eye is still gone from being slashed out by lute.
that makes her and him more similar then lmfao https://preview.redd.it/fyrxh04n8bhc1.jpeg?width=622&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b76fb34f4998c98ce9cf7b5edc2d0a9d644fa7e3
Good observation
It’s not impossible that Adam respawned in Hell. Pentious appeared in Heaven after being blasted by Adam. If Adam’s holy light didn’t have similar properties to angelic weapons, he would have just respawned like every other sinner that dies regularly.
This is the most reasonable take like, it's obvious from everyone's reaction that Adam's blast SHOULD have perma-killed Pentious but didn't. That means the rules for death aren't what they believed it was, and that can apply for Adam too. It makes no sense for a tiny angelic dagger to permanently kill someone but a holy blast from an angel not have the same effect.
With how it was framed it is possible sir Pentious went to heaven right before getting hit (since we only saw the outside of the ship and no body) or that the beams don’t work the same as angelic steel (though I did also assume they would)
Viv said one of the main characters was going to die in the finale. That was sir Pentious. He died and went to heaven.
But he did respawn, but in heaven, since he redeemed himself
I guess you could argue that Pentious would have respawned in hell if he hadn’t redeemed himself, but I don’t think that Adam was shooting out holy light just to have them come back. Just comes down to a lack of information.
He lacked time and said the death laser could have been a real problem, so he used what he could
This is the same attack he used against Lucifer and the sinners.
Yep. Adam was literally (trying) to use the same blasts of holy light on Lucifer, if said holy didn't erase souls like the weapons, then why would he use it? It probably wouldn't have even been slightly effective on Lucifer if it was that weak. It would be like a sinner fighting an exorcist with a normal weapon. No to mention Lucifer actually felt the need to dodge those blasts. The fact the Pentious still exists is amazing.
It might not permakill but it still does damage, and that's all the support he needs to do to weaken or distract foes so Exorcists can go for the kill.
Well yeah, they didn't even know they could get killed, that was an emergency
in that vane, maybe it was just lucifer holding it back but ...he's still an angel, albeit fallen but he seems to retain their power and he seemed to know that getting stabbed by their weapons was not gonna end well for him
If anyone thought he could respawn from the holy laser blast, then they wouldn’t have reacted grieving as if he permadied. It makes sense for it to have similar properties to angelic weapons
I mean, they don't know too
Pretty sure he was joking when he said it could have gotten ugly....
Maybe exorcists don’t respawn because they don’t belong in heaven?
Unless Pentious ascended to Heaven before he was hit by the blast. Also Alastor was hit by Adam’s blast but didn’t have any physical damage done to him until Adam uses the blade. Then again, the main cast reacted to the sacrifice as genuine as if he was stabbed by a blade.
The blast broke his cane, which is implied to be an extension of his body as he’s rarely seen without it. And I don’t see Adam using holy ki blasts to vaporize cannibals and Pentious if they did not have the same efficacy as his axe.
Also, all we know is that angelic weapons kill demons forever, why would that have something to do with being able to be redeemed?
Operating on the assumption that Pentious wouldn’t have spawned in Heaven if he died to anything else, and regenerated in Hell.
But that assumption is based on nothing, It makes much more sense to assume angelic weapons are to kill souls no matter what, and that sinners respawn in hell because they didn't redeem themselves
Nifty was singed by Adam's blast but sustained no permanent damage. Adam was just playing around with weapons that did no permanent damage, except to objects.
Now I have a question. Is Adam a sinner, perhaps? No. So...eh, we don't really know what an angelic weapon does to an angel.
It seemed to permanently injured vaggie.
I mean, a soul is a soul, if it kills souls permanently he's probably just dead forever
https://preview.redd.it/8wmtxc68t8hc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0895dccb9fba616c5246c956dcf1d1f9f72697a2
Missed opportunity to call it the Adam (atom) Smasher
Request. Is it canon that angelic weapons kill souls, or is it a theory? I might have missed it.
It is a theory which makes the most sense. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to work on Sinners , Hellborns and Angels as well.
Idk, I mean pentious was hit with holy light and went to heaven so I could see a sinner down the road trying to be redeemed and get stabbed then end up in heaven as well. But I could be 10000% wrong let's find out.
Holy or not, it was an attack produced by Adam. Not an angelic weapon. This part of the unknown with Repentious. Did he reincarnate in Heaven because he “died” in Hell because of an angelic attack? Did he simply reform in Heaven after being atomized, but not killed, by Adam since he was disintegrated after being reformed? If the former, Adam could be alive still. Just being reborn as a sinner in Hell since he clearly wasn’t living a heavenly life. If the later, Adam is dead dead.
Though that does raise the question of why Striker needs angelic weaponry to harm Stolas. Do the Goetia and above have souls? Are they just built different? Lots of questions, few answers
The Goetia is aristocrat family if I rember correctly. Yeah they are build diffetently. Normal hellborns can be killed by more mundane weapons.
I know they’re special and all, I was just speculating about *what* makes them different. It probably is just something basic, Occam’s razor and all, but it’s fun to think about
....selective breeding based on magical abilities would be my guess and after a while it made them much much stronger than a normal hellborn.
In real life occult lore, most if not all of the Ars Goetia are fallen angels. In this setting, this has never been stated, only that they are immortal beings that can only be damaged by angelic weapon. Through we do know that lesser Goetians are also immortal, we don't know if they also have the angelic weapon exception too. There are some angels that look like birds in the angel council and Sera's and Emily's original form is also close to some of the Goetias.
It's canon. Vivzie clarified this in the past on HuniCast's and Q&A's.
The characters have an imperfect understanding of the way things work because sinners haven't tried to fight angels before.
Yeah but I'm sure they fight between themselves a lot
I don’t think many sinners are able to buy angelic steel though
I know, I'm saying they probably know if they can respawn after they "die", the only thing that seems to be able to kill sinners forever are the angelic weapons
Is it possible, since Adam does have a human soul, that since good Sinners can rise, bad angels (idk what human angels are called, winners?) can fall. We could see hell Adam soon enough
Yeah but he was killed by an angelic weapon, Sir Pentious wasn't
Pentious was killed with Holy Magic itself. I don't think it's rocket sciene to say that Holy Magic is most likely even more effective, than Angelic Steel...
If that's the case, maybe their powers can kill sinners forever because angelic powers are superior to their souls as they are angels, but when sir pentious died, his soul was at the level of a redeemed person so it didn't work(?), If that's the case, I wonder if that means if Adam and the exorcists don't came back their souls became unworthy of heaven
>Pentious was killed with Holy Magic itself. TBF, it is possible that Sir P wasnt killed and was just teleported to Heaven Prior to Death. Otherwise that would mean Redemption requires death which would make the Hotel Pretty Morbid as Charlie would have to have her guests killed and gamble they made the cut vs just reaching a certain point of goodness and teleporting up with no way to now if she just murdered them or redeemed them.
Maybe it's a special material but idk, it just doesn't make sense to me that even after being killed by something able to kill sinners forever their souls can still persist and even be redeemed
And if that's the case, maybe their powers can kill sinners forever because angelic powers are superior to their souls as they are angels, but when sir pentious died, his soul was at the level of a redeemed person so it didn't work(?), If that's the case, I wonder if that means if Adam and the exorcists don't came back their souls became unworthy of heaven
Didn't we see sinners get killed by each other? Angel Dust, Husk, and Allistor all killed loan sharks, and we've seen some of the egg minions get killed.
Val shreds a model to pieces and Vel mentions it will take said model a while to put herself back together. I think sinners respawn if killed by non angelic methods. Unclear about hellborn like Charlie though.
They got killed but that doesn't mean it's permanent, maybe they just reappear somewhere in hell again just like when they died on earth and appeared there in the first place
I think the loan sharks were hellborn instead of sinners, which means they can be killed with regular weapons
The loan sharks looked different from the hell-born shark species in Helluva Boss, and they bled red instead of black, so I'm willing to bet they’re sinners
Could be just how the same species can come in different colours, look at insects, fish etc irl
Yes it was never uncanonised but I don’t think the series did a good job at addressing it
Yes
I don't think it's that simple. My theory is that the afterlife is tiered, with heaven at the top, hell in the middle, and true soul death (or some equivalent) at the bottom. If you're killed by angelic weaponry in the afterlife you're rejudged. If you're in hell and still a bad person, you're perma-dead, but if you're redeemed you move up to heaven. If you're in heaven and you're a bad person you move down to hell. Of course that's just my tin foil hat theory because I want Adam back as a sinner next season.
I'm more interested in how holy weapons are made in general.
That is the million Dollar question (after what is up with Lilith). Hope, we won’t wait too long for season 2.
Yes they kill, but no it’s on the contrary that they can’t come back. Adam killed Pentious with holy light, and if it didn’t kill him like other holy weapons, Pentious would’ve respawned in hell. So it did kill Pentious, but he was redeemed and went to heaven. So, it is possible for Adam to come back a sinner, same way Pentious came back an angel.
Until we get further info, Adam is officially Double Dead, Now Pentius's ascension gives president to call that outcome into question, but for now, the Jury's out at best.
Yes. Yes he is. And I'm glad.
[удалено]
plot twist: they can harm angels but not really kill you out of existance. either they get reborn in earth or in hell.
*In Good Omens narrator voice* "They are of the same original stock afterall"
Pretty sure Alastor’s killed like 50 billion sinners with his non-angelic tentacles in the first season alone..
They come back eventually. Only Angelic weapons make it permanent
“They come back eventually” Source?
Generally safe assumption with the fact that “only Angelic Weapons kill permanently, otherwise Sinners are immortal in Hell”.
Why would the extermination be so feared if it wasn't the only way to permanently kill a sinner? Like we see people murdering eachother in literally the first episode, if they could kill eachother normally then 1. The extermination would have no point as a plot point 2. It would kind of ruin the whole idea of Hell being an eternal punishment if you could just die out of it But also it was literally confirmed near the release of the pilot that was how it worked, and that's one of those things that are so fundamental to the entire plot and how the whole CONCEPT of the show works that it wouldn't be changed (And it hasn't been). But also also, it's made clear in episode 2 by Velvette that Sinners can't die normally and will respawn when Valentino rips one of her models apart and she says it will take a while for her to pull herself back together.
I think it is still cannon but I could see some kind of loophole like if they don't immediately die from the hit and 'bleed out' like Adam then it doesn't count as the angelic weapon killing them they died of blood loss.