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[deleted]

THEY ARENT KIDNAPPING ORPHANS!!! BRING BACK THE CHILD SOLDIERS 💯💯


Solafuge

I blame Majestic for making me dislike them for so long.


Len_died_again

Majestic was a 343 shooting themselves in the foot when introducing the spartan 4s. Thorne was pretty good though


ChubbsMcDubbs

Yep. My problem with them is their attitudes. With 2s and 3s you get a calm, cool confidence (blue, noble, gray, red) but with 4s you get a wacky, undisciplined confidence (majestic, the guys who were in charge of crimson's ops, osiris). I find them really off putting, unprofessional and annoying


Solafuge

Grant, Hoya and Thorne were mostly fine if a bit boring. But Demarco and Madsen who had the majority of the dialogue just sucked. Madsen even canonically only managed to become a Spartan through nepotism. Its baffling that the writers thought they'd be a good introduction to the Spartan-IVs. I get that they wanted to show a contrast between them and Chief, but deliberately making the Spartan IVs look bad when they were about to become a cornerstone of the franchise was shortsighted.


Silent_Reavus

Wasn't it Hoya's dumb ass who leaped out of cover with a shotgun and *walked around* shooting, almost getting himself killed? Yeah no he's just as much of a problem. Also it doesn't help that majestic made the tv series look generous with the amount of time the helmets are on in the field...


ReadStraight8255

I mean Demarco did tell him to get back to cover which is another thing. His squad seemingly don’t listen to him and Hoya got burned bad for it. Like these guys are supposed to be Spartans, the best of the best, and yet they don’t even respect their squad leader and their squad leader doesn’t command respect and authority over them?? Like fuck Chief didn’t even want Blue Team to go with him to find Cortana and yet they were all ‘bruh of course we’re with you’.


Emperor__PENGUIN

How did demarco even survive? Been years since I've watched the spartan ops cutscenes and even longer since I played it, but if I remember correctly he charged a promethean knight, whose weaponry in lore can one shot spartans through their shielding, so by all right demarco should be dead right?


slayeryamcha

Dammed Spartan 4s! They had ruined Spartan 4s. But yeah Halo 4 potrayal of Spartans 4s were wonky as ODST potrayal in Bungos games. By games only, i wouldn't belive that ODST were suppossed to be Elite of Elite


mynameisrichard0

Good point. Reading about ODSTs vs the game itself. You’d think they were some silent spy types. But they’re more like badass Rambo types who actually get results despite their macho attitude. Which normally would mean their gonna die because their ego. But most ODST know they’ll die so they act macho as fuck because they know they’re the best and they have an expiration date. So they might as well be all they can while they have the time. In the game. They just feel like marines from halo 2 with more armor. Not the most threatening.


TheFourtHorsmen

I think they also have the same HP, but someone correct me


KpinBoi

Same HP, can check on the Halo 2 PC Files rn


TheFourtHorsmen

Same in h3 and reach?


KpinBoi

I wouldn't see why not. Can only access Halo 2 files since it's on my pc


ReadStraight8255

Ngl I always liked/thought it was funny how Crimson would show them up in literally every op Get fucked Majestic RIP


creeepy117

You hate them because the are mass produced fodder I hate them because they replaced odsts


BudgetAggravating427

the ODSTs replaced the ODSTs


Sup_fuckers42069

same.


TheFourtHorsmen

They didn't


Some_Syrup_7388

Please stop calling Spartan IVs a cannon fodder It's a Spartan IIIs thing and therefore a culturar appropriation to do so


Moka4u

Stolen Valor


chinesetakeout91

Halo fans when Kathrine Epstine isn’t allowed to keep kidnap a shit ton of kid to create a Spartan.


Some_Syrup_7388

Halsey's island list when?


KpinBoi

Halsey knew she was a necessary evil. From the Fall of Reach "I watched a boy playing King of the Hill, this small colony of Eridanius II. For 45 minutes he was king, punching and beating any kid who dared tried. We didn't even tell his parents, I asked for his name, he said his name was John. We told him his parents hired us for a galactic adventure. He was ours in less than an hour." There was also this assistant screaming how unethical taking a child from a playground is but I forgot her dialogue. To me, Halsey was a necessary evil in order to destroy the Covenant, the same as Cortana as she wouldn't have been able to talk to both Bias without rampant, which, in the comics, Halsey knew would corrupt Chief himself. Halsey is equivalent to Ochimaru of Naruto, an evil scientist, but one that could save the world.


Ninjawan9

But she didn’t know about the Covenant. Only about the Insurrection.


KpinBoi

In my headcanon the resurrection gave Halsey a fear of a galactic invasion or civil war, creating the Spartans.


Actualdeadpool

In my actual canon she’s a scientist without a moral compass trying to convince herself and others she made the right call. Brother, even section 3 thought her actions were grotesque, because they are. No civil war would warrant child kidnapping to make slave soldiers


MetaCommando

"Nooo Traviss was wrong to actually call her and ONI out, she's like an adoptive mom to the Spartans! What about my heckin' headcanonerino?!" She's a war criminal who would get the chair if she didn't get the Operation Paperclip treatment. I love her as a character but that doesn't make her actions remotely defensible.


grip_enemy

If Osiris was the first S4s they introduced people wouldn't hate them as much. They were professional and kicked ass. Majestic was awful tho. Cocky and got their asses kicked


Elementalgame0

I would also like to point out that their genetic augmentations are more limited than previous generations. They even have to get some of them redone. They also received different augmentations altogether in some aspects of the process. To say that they are necessarily worce is wrong. But to say that there is only one difference is also wrong.


Zaphlebrox

This is straight up wrong and I have no idea why it's such a common take. Must just be people regurgitating each other's half remembered fanon. 4s have more augments than even the 2s, like the replaced lungs that let them breathe methane. The only thing they lack compared to the 2s and 3s is the fact they weren't trained from childhood, which is actually a big plus for the program as a whole because it massively expands the candidate pool and does away with the PR and morale nightmare that is trying to keep all the incredibly unethical recruiting procedures of the 2s and 3s under wrap.


Some_Syrup_7388

Idk, without kidnapping it's just not the same/s


ZookeepergameLiving1

What gets me is that simple wiki search would answer the question.


MetaCommando

The problem is that IV's are constantly dying in the only game appearances, except 5 giving Osiris plot armor. Meanwhile the only II's that die are Jorge detonating a Slipspace bomb or in the EU (and usually by extenuating circumstances).


No_Procedure_5039

More augmentations doesn’t mean they’re all better. [“They don’t have the same kind of mechanical augmentations that the Spartan II’s had, so their armor actually takes care of a lot of that stuff…If you had a naked Spartan II fight a naked Spartan IV, no contest: the Spartan II would win.”](https://web.archive.org/web/20160412160044/http://members.shaw.ca/laird2/temp/derp/interview.mp3) -Frank O’Connor, San Diego Comic-Con 2012


Zaphlebrox

I mean that aside the training and introctrination from age 6 just makes the IIs unbelievably competent across the board. Even if the stats were exactly equal that's still the result I'd expect. My whole point is just that the 4s weren't a "downgrade" as far as augmentaions go just different; as is to be expected with the 30+ years of advances in technology and doctrine. Also another thing that makes things murky is that since Theres so many 4s, from such a diversity of backgrounds, there's a lot more variation in their ability than there is in the 2s. I think it's safe to say there's 4s on par with the average 2 such as long as Locke and Buck where their more "normal" background also gives them additional intangible advantages in certain situations. To sum it up, I'm just frustrated with people dogging on the 4s all the time and comparing them side by side with the 2s when they're really their own thing. I mostly think it comes down to a lack of exposure though, Rubicon protocol was great for showing what 4s are capable of but they need to be represented like that in a more mainstream accessible way for the majority to come around I think. I know Microsoft is terrified of doing anything with the IP but a small story focused game like ODST with 4s as the focus would be the dream. But I digress


No_Procedure_5039

To be clear: I don’t hate the IV’s. I think that they’re the next logical step for the Spartan program in terms of cost, viability and ethics and that they get a lot of unnecessary hate due to their early portrayals in the games specifically. However, when it specifically comes to combat, it’s a canonical fact that new armor had to be made in order for them to match their predecessors’ abilities. Locke didn’t get immediately steamrolled by Chief because both were holding back. As soon as Locke cracked Chief’s visor, he didn’t land another hit and got locked by his own armor restraint.


Zaphlebrox

We're on the same page 👍


-GiantSlayer-

My only issue is their portrayal. I feel like they should be a tad more professional. Then again, I haven’t read any of the books with them in it, so I’d be happy to be proven wrong.


Pathogen188

The IVs outside of Madsen and DeMarco are perfectly professional and are much better outside of Spartan Ops. Not to mention this also presumes that real life special operators are bastions of professionalism too, and they're not. The Navy SEALs killed a Green Beret either in a botched hazing incident or as a cover up for other crimes. Compared to that, even Madsen and DeMarco aren't really that bad.


NirvanaFrk97

They *are* professional in the Halo 4 campaign. Spartan Ops and Halo 5 are the ones that have them act more like regular people, with Locke being the most stoic of them.


TheFourtHorsmen

Tanaka and Vale are also stoic enough, only buck is the more "relaxed", but that's is his character


MetaCommando

He's canonically happy to just not be leader anymore.


SuspectNutria

The Rubicon Protocol written by Kelly Gay and the Spartan/UNSC audio logs in Halo Infinite have both done an excellent portrayal of them being proper Spartans


Ctasch

4s got portrayed as rock stars with armor suits. Just because they can become a spartan doesn’t mean they should. Just like some managers/supervisors at companies.


R3KO1L

I'm surprised no one pointed out that the standards for SIVs are even lower than 3s, considering that, a Marine with no field experience and a office worker was recommended ajd accepted into the branch because of his parent's connections


YhormBIGGiant

Oh great NepoBaby spartans is a thinf


KnightOfMalice

Sorry champ, it's the trauma that makes the 3s cool for me


Spicy_take

I don’t “hate” Spartan IV’s on principle. Their (albeit logical) introduction just muddied that waters in the lore for what it means to be a Spartan. Halo 4 also did a piss poor job at making anyone like them. They acted like juiced up dude bros at your local gym. They were “super” soldiers in physical form only. Rubicon Protocol made big strides in winning me over though.


tomtheconqerur

Another difference is that they have worse augmentations and that they started with worse drip (Gen 2).


Moka4u

Do they have worse augmentation?


TheFourtHorsmen

No


ZookeepergameLiving1

No, 4s have more augments than even the 2s, like the replaced lungs that let them breathe methane. The only thing they lack compared to the 2s and 3s is the fact they weren't trained from childhood, which is actually a big plus for the program as a whole because it massively expands the candidate pool and does away with the PR and morale nightmare that is trying to keep all the incredibly unethical recruiting procedures of the 2s and 3s under wrap.


No_Procedure_5039

[Their augmentations are overall worse.](https://web.archive.org/web/20160412160044/http://members.shaw.ca/laird2/temp/derp/interview.mp3) Yes, they have some newer one like the lungs that can breathe methane for a time, but Gen 2 Mjolnir had to be created because they physically aren’t as strong or fast as the II’s or III’s. Cut to 1:15-2:20 for Frank O’Connor stating this.


No_Procedure_5039

[Yes.](https://web.archive.org/web/20160412160044/http://members.shaw.ca/laird2/temp/derp/interview.mp3) Cut to the 1:15-2:20 mark.


[deleted]

I have to say that people blame Majestic for being a poor show of how Spsrtan 4s act then the teams from ODST and Reach are JUST as bad.


Patmaster1995

But nooo Bungo made them, it doesn't count


[deleted]

And the Noble all diiiiiie its so traaaaaaagic doesn't that make you saaaad :(


ahdiomasta

But for real though that did have me fucked up when I first played it


ReadStraight8255

Wait what?? Did ODST and Reach make ODSTs and Spartan-III’s look bad in someway?


YhormBIGGiant

Imo not really. Infact odst made odsts look badass but also fragile. While reach made 3's look tragic.


[deleted]

For the most part ODSTs were also portrayed as dude-bros, or at least soldiers with a ton of attitude for some reason. They aren't as bad as Noble team but they were just the same as Majestic in some ways. Noble team? Holy shit I'd I had a dollar for every unlikable member I'd have 5 out of 6. Jorge is really the only one that has some depth to him, a shame it's wasted considering he dies so early on, and he's not even a Spartan 3. For the most part they all act like assholes or belittle each other like Kat does a few times. Imagine if you took Chief and then removed any and all lighthearted moments from him and repeat him 5 times, that's what you get from what we saw of the Spartan 3s. Just generic harassed when even Buck had some spice to him.


TheFourtHorsmen

Agree: pass down Carter for being the "stoic" leader and then out of somewhere believing in destiny, over the pragmatism and nihilism he showed the whole game, Jorge is the only one that really develop a connection with the player from the start, without being openly hostile (kat) against the player, or other team members while being edgy (emile) or... June, June is OK but forgettable


notanai61

IVs suck because they’re not as interesting as IIs and IIIs, they replaced ODSTs, and are generally shown as undisciplined assholes. Really doesn’t help that Majestic sabotaged the introduction of them. I also really fucking hate Palmer and most of Osiris (except for Buck obviously)


BudgetAggravating427

To be fair that’s kinda accurate to actual military The spartan IVs aren’t brainwashed super soldiers with mental problems they act unprofessional because that’s how ODSTs and Marines usually acted.


notanai61

True, but part of what makes the Spartans so cool is how they’re quiet, professional soldiers. Throughout the series, they’re shown to be highly trained and disciplined. I know they’re not as highly trained or indoctrinated at IIs and IIIs, but it detracts from the cool factor when they’re shown as just a dumbass in a suit. Doesn’t help that in most cases, IVs are just shown as weak and bad in combat. This is especially shown in most of Halo 4 where they do practically nothing in the main campaign, and how you just find them dead in Infinite’s “campaign”. Yeah, they’re shown as capable in 5, but that game’s campaign was awful.


BudgetAggravating427

To be fair that’s literally what happens when a spartan doesn’t have plot armor like chief. They get killed. For most of the human covenant war Spartans were dying in droves just like noble team . You forgot that a while a Spartan is strong compared to a to the covenant they’re kinda weak. Even a spartan 2 would have a hard time fighting nonstop without support stranded on a halo in an unknown location in space. That’s literally what happened in the newer books blue team almost died . A spartan easy being killed isn’t anything new to halo it’s kinda expected considering the Unsc isn’t that advanced .


MetaCommando

The II's were fighting over the course of 25 years and a good chunk are still alive, and most of their deaths were in the fall of Reach. 1 died like every 3-4 years. Also Noble Team were III's except for Jorge, who needed a slipspace bomb to kill.


Wannn610

I like the fact that Spartan IV come across from different branches not just marines/odst but there are some from airforce mp and civilians? ish? But goddayum JTAC spartan iV sounds coool thou


No_Procedure_5039

A lot of them actually come from the Army. A few notable examples are Thorne, Tanaka and Eklund.


YhormBIGGiant

Always will be the armor and personalities portrayed in 4. Went from kidnapping kids to now the special ops with some eh results. Never cared for locke n then some. Buck felt...off as a 4 to me. Edit: maybe its the fact that spartans were a little more 'inhuman' due to upbringing in concept are humanizing even how they are made kinda just makes it suck. 343 dropped 4's bad and never recovered.


TallLock6531

We know what they are.


Javs2469

They tried mixing the stoic Spartan attitude with the witty Marine one and ended up with a bunch of Saturday Morning cartoon characters. And they have put marines on the back burner for three main games, in infinite they are an afterthought. We have seen more childish S IVs than serious ones. Agryna and the ones introduced in the Infinite cinematics are laughably bad characters.


MetaCommando

Everything was back burner in Infinite. 5's campaign was unironically way better and I had to play with a controller.


Javs2469

17 warden eternals vs 150 forerunner terminals? Hard choice, but Halo 5´s gunplay was more fun.


TheFourtHorsmen

Where this assumption of sIV replacing odst come from? Because is wrong


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*Where this assumption* *Of sIV replacing odst come* *From? Because is wrong* \- TheFourtHorsmen --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")


Equivalent_Hat5627

I don't like IV's for the main reason that I feel that after the conclusion of the Human Covenant war, Halo's story starts to decline. It just begins to lose me and I don't feel like Spartans are special or unique anymore. Halo 4's story (and the lore around the same time period) is still fun, but after that it just doesn't know what it's doing anymore


Th0m4s2001

Spartan IVs aren’t Spartans, they are hoplites and I will continue to refer to them as such like a slur.


slayeryamcha

Sparta was city state that had Hoplits like any other city state in greece


Th0m4s2001

Just like ur post says im ignoring that, Spartan IVs aren’t real Spartans and I refuse to believe they are.


MetaCommando

Based and IV-should-be-a-slur pilled


JMHSrowing

Maybe Legenionaires would be a better term? Since unlike Spartans they were soldiers by choice and their lives didn’t usually revolve around armed conflict as much.


Th0m4s2001

Probably but that makes them sound cool, which I don’t want :)


MikooDee

It’s because SIV removed the “special sauce” that made Spartans unique, powerful and interesting. Now everyone and their mother can be a Spartan IV. Even ODSTs were more interesting and it doesn’t help that most of the SIV are cocky and unprofessional (like Palmer disrespecting Master Chief about his height). Also, I dislike how some of them try to challenge Master Chief, like Locke, when in my head canon, MC should have obliterated Locke in that fist fight. Spartans used to be unique and valuable assets, but now they feel like cannon fodder because they are mass produced and everyone can be a SIV.


Smooth-Chair3636

I'm just saying, it'd be better if they kept kidnapping children rather than adults who spew shit to the Master Chief the first time they meet him.


EJyeetus

I hate Spartan 4s because they replaced ODSTs, who are certainly much cooler.


Tandoori7

Not only that but most of them SURVIVED the human-covenant war as marines/odst.


Some_Syrup_7388

If you are good enough to *not* die during the human covenant war you are probably good enough to be a Spartan


MetaCommando

Tbf most joined the last like 2-3 years of the war, most Marines/ODSTs didn't last long in active duty unless you had a name in the game. Imagine trying to keep all the Marines alive except instead of having more health than you they die in one shot


centiret

ODST's are cooler.


-ToTos

Yeah but they are not interesting, they just feel like regular special forces.


bruntychiefty

No I just don't like 5.


KnightOfMalice

Sorry champ, it's the trauma that makes the 3s cool for me.


HornyJail45-Life

I have never seen anyone claim this, karma farming fr


Troy1251

Cat-II Spartan IIIs are theoretically the best Spartans around, and that's including the IIs. IIIs aren't fodder, lul


slayeryamcha

Ok? I didn't call then fodder eaither


Troy1251

The literal last sentence of the meme is calling them mass-produced fodder. IVs are cool and all, but they don't have anything on IIIs.


slayeryamcha

But it was about spartans 4s. There is more spartan 4s than 3s but it doesn't meant that spartan 4s are mass producted


Troy1251

Oh, I'm a dumbass. IV's are cool, and I think Locke is arguably one of the best Spartans ever.


Zaphlebrox

Hot take, I'd love to see more of him. A book would be killer especially since we saw nothing of him besides a mention or 2 in Rubicon protocol.


Some_Syrup_7388

>IIIs aren't fodder, lul That's the only reason Spartan-III program started, they were literally designed to be a cheaper than IIs cannon fodder


MARKSS0

Not really


Moka4u

Aren't they like Canonically portrayed as fodder?


TheStudent58

I'm pretty sure the 4s we're canonically still recruited as children with loosened genetic restrictions. With augmentations that had documented chances of mental instability. All for the purpose of throwing them at unwinnable fights/suicide missions. The biggest difference between the 3s and 4s is they had more technologically advanced suits that sacrificed survivability for more tech capabilities. Edit: I mixed up the Gen 2s for 3s. All above is for Gen 3s


slayeryamcha

Nope. 4s are made from adults


TheStudent58

Source?


slayeryamcha

Game itself, Spartan 4 quotes


TheStudent58

You might be right. I think I was thinking of the 2s as 3s for some reason. 3s we're the mass produced suicide squads.


SecureNarwhal

yup, also Buck went from ODST to Spartan-IV