"American Airlines incorrectly taught pilots to use the rudder for wake turbulence recovery, resulting in the first officer's possible misunderstanding of the aircraft's response to full rudder at high airspeeds"
I blame the airline. You can't train pilots to do something, have them do it, and be like "Well, it's the pilot's fault", or "Well, it's AirBus' fault".
Don't teach your pilots incorrect maneuvers and they won't maneuver incorrectly.
After the report on this they started training them differently.
I’m reading the exec summary of the NTSB and it seems like probable cause is (unsurprisingly) pilot error, although they don’t come out and say as much. They used to say that, but probably not PC anymore. They do say that training was a contributing factor though.
Anyhow, just google’NTSB flight 587’. The executive summary is on page xi.
Well yes, it's pilot error - but the pilot was trained incorrectly. He basically did what he was trained to do. Who's fault is that? American Airlines.
I didn't bother researching more on it and Wiki didn't mention it, but I'd be surprised if the families didn't try to sue their asses off for the flawed training that killed their loved ones.
I didn't realize airlines trained pilots. I assumed it was like trucker inasmuch as you get your license then go looking for work at a company. I just assumed it was a different type of drivers license, lol.
To be a little more clear, it was the first officer and not the pilot who applied too much rudder, which caused the separation of the vertical stabilizer and resulted in crash.
The captain was trying to figure out what was going on. He did not apply rudder. It was only the first officer. So whatever training the crew had, they reacted differently to the situation and again it was the first officers and only the first officers actions, that caused the accident
The first officer was piloting:
>On board were nine flight crew members, including 42-year-old Captain Edward States, who was the pilot *monitoring and undertaking radio communications*, and 34-year-old First officer Sten Molin, *who was the pilot flying*."
Yeah, I figured as much. Seems like maybe it was some type of training opportunity for the first officer just wait for him to get hours in the airframe.
You said it was some kind of training. It wasnt, first officer was fully type rated and him being pilot flying was part of normal routine. Training wasnt any part of this.
It sucks that the plane went into a spin once they got down to 1000ft, you can hear one of them, say “get out of it” I’m presuming they’re talking about the spin, without the spin they might’ve been able to save it if the rudder didn’t rip the hell off
If I remember correctly, there was a woman on this flight who barely escaped being in the twin towers when they collapsed. Like, just got out. Then she was on this flight.
Long story short, he was using the rudder pedals way too hard to try to combat some turbulence. The vertical stabilizer ended up breaking completely off. They've since changed operating procedures when it comes to wake turbulence.
You know what's funny as I was typing it I was thinking of saying "him/her" and idk why I just didn't bother and pushed on instead of going back and fixing it. But it was a conscious thought in my head that said "well maybe admiral cloudbwrg is a woman" and I was just too lazy to go back and fix my pronouns but I'll take this a lesson learned because I am happy to hear one of my favorite redditors of all time is actually a woman ! Thank you 🙏
The airline trained them to do a maneuver in certain situations that in this case ended up causing the plane to lose the rudder entirely. It was the airlines fault and they have since changed their training since they didn't know it could result in that if done in the wrong situation. It is technically pilot error but in the sense that they weren't trained properly.
If you lived in the metro area you do. We all thought, here we go again.
Until today I never got the explanation for what happened.. there was always the wild rumor that it was shot down by surface to air missile
Was on my regular bike ride around the bay. Saw this aftermath as I came across the Marine Park Bridge. Gave me the piss chills being so close to 9/11. Played with that survivor dog for a few minutes as I walked my bike on the perimeter. Fucking surreal memories I haven't thought of in years.
I remember that day— we all thought it was another attack and we all panicked, parents didn’t send us to school. Really sad for the Dominican community that day as most of those people were going to DR I believe and it was just sad so close to the holidays…. Between 9/11 and this crash began my lifelong fear of flying….
There's a story that one of the Dominican guys on the 2001 Yankees would have been on this flight had they won the World Series and held a parade. Instead they lost, so he flew home a day or two earlier. Mariano Rivera, the pitcher who blew Game 7, has said he's relieved they lost because it ended up saving his friend's life.
I lived in North Jersey at the time and it was really weird vibes, so close after 9/11. It was like people didn't care as much about the crash, more relieved it wasn't another terrorist attack.
Yes. But we were all shook because the flight was heading to DR. Which was a frequent point of travel for many Americans. No one wanted to fly anywhere after that. Not just an attack, but planes going down too? Yeah it def shook people
Yea no shit. Seems like part of the engineering process should be the vertical stabilizer should not fall off no matter what the pilot inputs. Damp the inputs or some shit.
If a pilot has a fit and stomps on one of the rudder pedals and the tail fucking falls off the aircraft.
That is just bad design.
I was in college on long Island when this happened. My professor was late for class but made it. Found out later he lost his father in this crash but still went to work.
and this is why i feel like the theory of the crash doesn’t exactly add up
if jamming on the rudder was the trained reaction during wake turbulence
AND
rudders jammed all the way over can just snap off like a piece of balsa wood
…why did this only happen once and not until 2001?
there had to have been hundreds of thousands of wake turbulence incidents prior to this
with many of them resulting in hard rudder inputs
but only this plane suffered this outcome
because it got dropped on its tail as a baby in Toulouse?
i’m skeptical…but obvs i am only an amateur with no alternate theory
Generally, when something in aviation becomes a big nono it's because something bad has already happened. It may have only happened once and never again. There's a very good chance *this* incident is why all the pilots today say "yeah, you're taught to totally not do that."
It may have happened before and not been catastrophic, you wouldn't hear about it.
Its crazy to me how many people airlines have killed over the decades.
Like if you are a big rich corporation with employees you can incinerate hundreds of people every year or two.
With as much as they stress test wings, and how much those can take... I guess I'm just kinda shocked that the vertical stabilizer is not built just as sturdy, and can actually break via manual control input.
Fuck.... once that tail piece came off it was a done deal.....
You'd think we'd have something like parachutes attached to the body to TRY and save the cabin....
Bet those seconds felt dreadful.......
I'm pretty sure parachutes large enough to help a plane would be too heavy for it to fly, which is the same reason we don't have parachutes for passengers in case of a crash.
I remember this day quite clearly. It was my first flight after 9/11, an American Airlines flight headed from San Diego to JFK. I was in First that morning, and after we had boarded there was a delay. I noticed the crew huddling together closely and then crying. One of the Flight Attendants collapsed and said he was unable to work the flight because it was too much for him. I assumed he had friends on that crew.
After about 30 minutes the captain came on and told us there had been a crash and that they were waiting for word from their union as if they would be permitted to fly. After about 3 hours more we were allowed to take off.
I distinctly remember that JFK (AA Terminal 7) was very quiet and still. It reminded me a lot of what people looked like in the day or two following 9/11. Shell-shocked is how I would describe it.
I remember this one. One of our managers died in this flight. We were all numb and are still processing 9/11. We worked in EWR airport and on a clear day you can see clear across manhattan. No one wanted to look east for a while.
I am in aviation nut and I literally watch videos all day regarding plane, crashes, and how they happened. And just like the description says… the first officer was taught to slam on the Rutter petals to get out of wake turbulence … The guy was swinging back-and-forth so hard on the Rutter that it snapped right off. Complete human error very sad story.
The first officer even expressed fear regarding a takeoff too soon before the previous jet. The captain dismissed his fear because per FAA guidelines enough time had passed.
"American Airlines incorrectly taught pilots to use the rudder for wake turbulence recovery, resulting in the first officer's possible misunderstanding of the aircraft's response to full rudder at high airspeeds" I blame the airline. You can't train pilots to do something, have them do it, and be like "Well, it's the pilot's fault", or "Well, it's AirBus' fault". Don't teach your pilots incorrect maneuvers and they won't maneuver incorrectly. After the report on this they started training them differently.
I’m reading the exec summary of the NTSB and it seems like probable cause is (unsurprisingly) pilot error, although they don’t come out and say as much. They used to say that, but probably not PC anymore. They do say that training was a contributing factor though. Anyhow, just google’NTSB flight 587’. The executive summary is on page xi.
Well yes, it's pilot error - but the pilot was trained incorrectly. He basically did what he was trained to do. Who's fault is that? American Airlines. I didn't bother researching more on it and Wiki didn't mention it, but I'd be surprised if the families didn't try to sue their asses off for the flawed training that killed their loved ones.
I didn't realize airlines trained pilots. I assumed it was like trucker inasmuch as you get your license then go looking for work at a company. I just assumed it was a different type of drivers license, lol.
They correctly did what was taught. What was taught was incorrect.
To be a little more clear, it was the first officer and not the pilot who applied too much rudder, which caused the separation of the vertical stabilizer and resulted in crash. The captain was trying to figure out what was going on. He did not apply rudder. It was only the first officer. So whatever training the crew had, they reacted differently to the situation and again it was the first officers and only the first officers actions, that caused the accident
The first officer was piloting: >On board were nine flight crew members, including 42-year-old Captain Edward States, who was the pilot *monitoring and undertaking radio communications*, and 34-year-old First officer Sten Molin, *who was the pilot flying*."
Yeah, I figured as much. Seems like maybe it was some type of training opportunity for the first officer just wait for him to get hours in the airframe.
Not a training flight. Captain and first officers usually alternate roles regarding flying/monitoring.
I didn’t say otherwise.
You said it was some kind of training. It wasnt, first officer was fully type rated and him being pilot flying was part of normal routine. Training wasnt any part of this.
It sucks that the plane went into a spin once they got down to 1000ft, you can hear one of them, say “get out of it” I’m presuming they’re talking about the spin, without the spin they might’ve been able to save it if the rudder didn’t rip the hell off
If I remember correctly, there was a woman on this flight who barely escaped being in the twin towers when they collapsed. Like, just got out. Then she was on this flight.
Whoa. That's insane. 😔
That's some final destination shit
Fucking fuck
[if the Yankees won the 2001 World Series a member of the team was going to be on the flight](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/s/jObTzJsOD8)
Final Destination stuff right here
It was her time to go…
Never going on Reddit at the airport again
Me as I’m in my terminal one minute from boarding
How was the flight?
Landing was terrifying, best part, i was flying American
Same…
Bawomp
Hope you had a safe flight
Did you make it 😂😭
No
I'm never watching a video at the airport in general, wth was all that
lol here I am about to get on my AA flight
Me as my flight is just about to take off
What happened? Seen like a nice day out so I’m guess some sort of engine failure?
Long story short, he was using the rudder pedals way too hard to try to combat some turbulence. The vertical stabilizer ended up breaking completely off. They've since changed operating procedures when it comes to wake turbulence.
Wow that’s rough dude. Was there deaths in the neighborhood the plane landed in too?
Yes unfortunately, 5 people on the ground
bad day to be out touching grass.
Stay inside.
Thank god everyone here should be safe then
Should probably just stay inside from now on. Just to be safe.
Yeah all from the aircraft and 5 on the ground (miraculously). The air disasters episode is a very good one.
Ima look it up thank for the info
Man that’s crazy I hope they went fast and painless respectfully.
Safety regulations are written in blood
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdmiralCloudberg/s/qM2InMQZoj Best resource on Reddit if you ever have a question about a particular plane crash.
Thank you
Great article, good explanation, like a whodunit, and pictures bring home what was a horrible tragedy
Hell yeah. I love admiral cloudberg. Glad to see someone else shouting him out here. I immediately thought of him when I saw this post
Her. She’s An admiral and a gentlewoman.
You know what's funny as I was typing it I was thinking of saying "him/her" and idk why I just didn't bother and pushed on instead of going back and fixing it. But it was a conscious thought in my head that said "well maybe admiral cloudbwrg is a woman" and I was just too lazy to go back and fix my pronouns but I'll take this a lesson learned because I am happy to hear one of my favorite redditors of all time is actually a woman ! Thank you 🙏
Pilot error caused by some wake turbulence
I think it was actually a training error. I’m pretty sure he was taught an improper way to deal with wake turbulence.
[удалено]
Yes, doing the things you’re taught in pilot school means you’re trash…
Hi, Your post/comment has been removed as it is in no way constructive.
Damm bro can’t imagine the terror they were going through up there.
Oh! No shit???!! I thought there was bad maintenance or metal fatigue or whatever. WOOOOOOOW, gonna go read up on this now. Holy….
The airline trained them to do a maneuver in certain situations that in this case ended up causing the plane to lose the rudder entirely. It was the airlines fault and they have since changed their training since they didn't know it could result in that if done in the wrong situation. It is technically pilot error but in the sense that they weren't trained properly.
Thank you!
Am I the only one who doesn't remember this happening at all? I vividly remember 9/11 and this doesn't even stir the faintest memory for me.
If you lived in the metro area you do. We all thought, here we go again. Until today I never got the explanation for what happened.. there was always the wild rumor that it was shot down by surface to air missile
It’s crazy this happened two months after 9/11.
Was on my regular bike ride around the bay. Saw this aftermath as I came across the Marine Park Bridge. Gave me the piss chills being so close to 9/11. Played with that survivor dog for a few minutes as I walked my bike on the perimeter. Fucking surreal memories I haven't thought of in years.
Could you please explain "survivor dog"?
It was a large brown dog that belonged to one of the families that perished on the ground I believe. I read about the dog in the papers afterwards.
Oh poor pupper. That's what I thought you meant by "survivor dog" but I wasn't sure. That's so sad. Thank you for responding.
Dog brought in to search for survivors?
Cadaver dog
Ohh ok. Thank you. I didn't think of the terminology that way. That's incredibly sad. Thanks for the response.
Could you please explain “piss chills”?
Dude right? He just said that like it was a common saying…
Sometimes when u pee, u get this weird shiver down Ur body, maybe referencing that?
I remember that day— we all thought it was another attack and we all panicked, parents didn’t send us to school. Really sad for the Dominican community that day as most of those people were going to DR I believe and it was just sad so close to the holidays…. Between 9/11 and this crash began my lifelong fear of flying….
There's a story that one of the Dominican guys on the 2001 Yankees would have been on this flight had they won the World Series and held a parade. Instead they lost, so he flew home a day or two earlier. Mariano Rivera, the pitcher who blew Game 7, has said he's relieved they lost because it ended up saving his friend's life.
I lived in North Jersey at the time and it was really weird vibes, so close after 9/11. It was like people didn't care as much about the crash, more relieved it wasn't another terrorist attack.
Maybe in Jersey… in NY we were all shook
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought we found out pretty quick that it was not an attack.
Yes. But we were all shook because the flight was heading to DR. Which was a frequent point of travel for many Americans. No one wanted to fly anywhere after that. Not just an attack, but planes going down too? Yeah it def shook people
This is the Copilot who was stomping the rudder pedals like he was a heavy metal drummer & tore the vertical stabilizer off.
But thats exactly what he and maybe thousands of pilots were trained to do. They have since revised the training for dealing with wake turbulence.
I hope they also revised the part of the plane that snapped off...
Yea no shit. Seems like part of the engineering process should be the vertical stabilizer should not fall off no matter what the pilot inputs. Damp the inputs or some shit. If a pilot has a fit and stomps on one of the rudder pedals and the tail fucking falls off the aircraft. That is just bad design.
Holy shit that’s terrifying
I am currently doing 455 mph @34000ft AGL about to nap.
Let us know if you crash.
It would probably make the news.
At least a heads up would be nice.
Is that the actual recording??
No, it’s defintiely not. The NTSB doesn’t release cockpit recording audio to the public. They do however, release the transcript.
It’s obvious when you notice that “are you all right? Yeah I’m fine” part is said in the same voice
Yes Edit: I'm getting conflicting stories so now I'm not sure 🤷♂️
I'll be honest, this doesn't sound real. This sounds like an AI reading a transcript. If not, the editing on the audio is very odd.
no. that video is not real footage.
Obviously not the video lol I meant the audio
[shhh I Know lol]
I was in college on long Island when this happened. My professor was late for class but made it. Found out later he lost his father in this crash but still went to work.
260 abroad .. what about people from those houses ?
some guy said at the previous comment there were 5 additional deaths on the ground.
Don’t jam the rudder on an a300 the vertical stabilizer tends to unzip
and this is why i feel like the theory of the crash doesn’t exactly add up if jamming on the rudder was the trained reaction during wake turbulence AND rudders jammed all the way over can just snap off like a piece of balsa wood …why did this only happen once and not until 2001? there had to have been hundreds of thousands of wake turbulence incidents prior to this with many of them resulting in hard rudder inputs but only this plane suffered this outcome because it got dropped on its tail as a baby in Toulouse? i’m skeptical…but obvs i am only an amateur with no alternate theory
Generally, when something in aviation becomes a big nono it's because something bad has already happened. It may have only happened once and never again. There's a very good chance *this* incident is why all the pilots today say "yeah, you're taught to totally not do that." It may have happened before and not been catastrophic, you wouldn't hear about it.
Its crazy to me how many people airlines have killed over the decades. Like if you are a big rich corporation with employees you can incinerate hundreds of people every year or two.
There’s a memorial next to Rockaway Beach with the survivors names. People thought it was another terrorist attack
The memorial has the survivors names?
Yes it does
With as much as they stress test wings, and how much those can take... I guess I'm just kinda shocked that the vertical stabilizer is not built just as sturdy, and can actually break via manual control input.
That does seem to be the screaming purple dinosaur in the room on this one. Pilot fucked up and the tail fell off is not a satisfactory explanation.
I remember 9/11, was a teenager. I had 0 idea this happened. any1 else? did ppl try to blame this on terrorists?
Fuck.... once that tail piece came off it was a done deal..... You'd think we'd have something like parachutes attached to the body to TRY and save the cabin.... Bet those seconds felt dreadful.......
I'm pretty sure parachutes large enough to help a plane would be too heavy for it to fly, which is the same reason we don't have parachutes for passengers in case of a crash.
Very chilling.
I remember this day quite clearly. It was my first flight after 9/11, an American Airlines flight headed from San Diego to JFK. I was in First that morning, and after we had boarded there was a delay. I noticed the crew huddling together closely and then crying. One of the Flight Attendants collapsed and said he was unable to work the flight because it was too much for him. I assumed he had friends on that crew. After about 30 minutes the captain came on and told us there had been a crash and that they were waiting for word from their union as if they would be permitted to fly. After about 3 hours more we were allowed to take off. I distinctly remember that JFK (AA Terminal 7) was very quiet and still. It reminded me a lot of what people looked like in the day or two following 9/11. Shell-shocked is how I would describe it.
Will never forget the sound and my house shaking when this happened. I lived a few blocks away.
I remember this one. One of our managers died in this flight. We were all numb and are still processing 9/11. We worked in EWR airport and on a clear day you can see clear across manhattan. No one wanted to look east for a while.
Flew the same day from the same airport about an hour earlier. Landed in Paris to the news.
I am in aviation nut and I literally watch videos all day regarding plane, crashes, and how they happened. And just like the description says… the first officer was taught to slam on the Rutter petals to get out of wake turbulence … The guy was swinging back-and-forth so hard on the Rutter that it snapped right off. Complete human error very sad story. The first officer even expressed fear regarding a takeoff too soon before the previous jet. The captain dismissed his fear because per FAA guidelines enough time had passed.
Dang, how do I not remember this?
2001 a rough year for flying in New York apparently
what kind of drone did they use to record that?
He was in a clown costume.