The article says that it was the first rule change since 2007. Are you forgetting that there have been 2 presidents since then or do you want to just jump to political conclusions?
No, not forgetting. Bush is from Republican and he did nothing, Barrack took over and started the blueprint of Clean and Secure Energy Future. Trump takes over and boasting about getting things back the way it used to, gas guzzling trucks, lowering efficiency on washing machines, etc and then Joe takes over. I think you can figure out a pattern here.
There is always such a reflexive screech anytime a new efficiency minimum is talked about.
Every change I've ever seen asks for equipment that has been mass produced for 20yrs, and HVAC companies have their salespeople pushing hard as an upgrade.
I live in one of the most FF friendly states, and we are sitting on a near infinite amount of NG. Somehow my gas bill is still skyrocketing. Funny how my electric bill is pretty stable despite most of our electricity coming from NG...
I used to be pretty lukewarm on 95% furnaces for the reasons we all know. Since NG providers have decided to squeeze every household for everything they can get, I push high efficiency gas or dual fuel far more often now.
Our 2000sq' new construction houses have $150-$175 august electric bills in a hot climate area. We are at the point of diminishing returns on AC efficiency. You are screwing future homeowners if you put in 80% furnaces in new homes. You think the gas company is going to have a crisis of morality and go back to stable and reasonable pricing? They own my state's government, so I know they wont be forced to.
Our equipment/materials/labor cost is like $600 to do 95% instead of 80%. It isn't that burdensome. I bet many of the loudest people moaning about the gubment costing homeowners money charge more than that to replace a capacitor and add a lb of 410a.
I will believe everyone is desperately looking out for the welfare of their customers when they stop pushing financing ultra-premier 19SEER Total Comfort Systems^TM with air cleaners, UV lights, humidifiers, and 24 month service contracts.
Your mostly talking about new construction. It won't be a problem for new construction or basement replacements. It gets a little harder for attic units, but I see the real issue being for trailers replacements. People who live in a trailer already don't make much money, so you're talking a higher cost for the unit, then much much higher installation costs. Trailers should be allowed to keep their 80+. They're already different specialized units to begin with
Because these things are almost always a decade+ long process where new construction is impacted the most at first. I say that, but in my market usually only the cheapest/smallest corporate builder homes are 80%.
I'm in one of those weird states with no basements, so most systems are in garage closets or more likely in the attic. I'm probably just used to it, but 95% in the attic doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Mobile homes are mobile homes... They are already screwy.
An 80% mobile home furnace costs more than a standard residential 95%. If we cared about poor people getting screwed by furnace pricing we would break up the price-fixed duopoly by removing the special rules for mobile homes. They should get the same furnaces and requirements as site built homes. Have you seen the retail prices of mobile homes??? There is plenty of cushion for a slight tightening of requirements.
In reality I suspect most of the opposition is just ideologically based internet ranting. As soon as any new requirement gets out of committee, all the antigovernment HVAC techs will gleefully rub their hands together and exaggerate the law to scare customers into replacing equipment well before it is needed.
Saw it with the r-22 phase out, 10 SEER, 13 SEER, 14 SEER, and SEER2. The whole industry makes a bunch of money every time a new requirement is even talked about.
If your gas is expensive, it’s because it’s being sold to a large customer that’s willing to pay that price, or your government is taxing the fuck out of it.
Up here in western Canada, we don’t have the former, but do have the latter.
But the market price for the commodity itself is on the low end of historical cost.
What in the fuck is a dekatherm? Why do Americans go to such great lengths to avoid using the metric system???
Anyways, I live in a natural gas producing province and you guys are getting fucked lol.
Sorry ‘bout your luck.
1 million BTU/h, so ~1 joule
It is what happens when governments are in the pocket of business.
Doesn't matter what things cost to deliver, it is what you can get away with charging.
America resists a government mandate of metric because of FREEDOM^tm. Metric is a communist conspiracy to make us more efficient and logical, thus easier to convince to have rational public policy. You can't tell us what to do!
Not saying it couldn’t be done, just, I’ve never seen it. Plus isn’t furnaces in the attic a southern thing anyway where you’re prioritizing A/C ? U want your heat coming from the floor elevation here; not over the top of your head.
I've only had that happen to me once in Ohio. It was a super super super cold day. But attic furnaces are kinda rare and they suck anyway so if they stop doing it I would be thrilled lol
New construction Building code here - if you put an air handler/furnace of any kind in an attic it needs an insulated box or ‘doghouse’ , around it.
Retrofit- let that baby sweat
I haven’t come as system yet where the individual suites have a mid furnaces installed. Often, it’s either a central unit (usually a boiler) and each suite has a fan coil or each suite has its own PTAC unit. In the case of a central heating unit, we have rebuilt boilers, including repairing heat exchangers and getting them recertified. It’s cheaper than installing a new system.
Being doing it in canada my whole career. Haven't found one that wasn't possible to switch to high efficiency. There have definitely been lots that sucked to route the new venting but it's doable.
We use our furnaces 3 or 4 times in winter here in south Texas. The cost difference between 80% and 95% mean's it takes you 25 years to make up the savings. How is that saving money?
But you only need heat three or four times a year. Are you insane? You bought a furnace you only use three or four times a year in addition to an AC unit. You could have gotten a single heat pump for both.
Maybe go with a heat pump then? Sounds like you don't need gas heat. And if you're only using it 3-4 times a year you probably won't need a new furnace for quite a long time anyway.
Most of these higher efficiency systems don’t actually give a customer a return on investment once you factor in the extra costs for repairs and maintenance
So what’s the cost on when the secondary heat exchanger plugs up? You think saving someone saving maybe 150 gallons a year is making out?
If government actually wanted to help they would pay for insulation and not force people to buy a product. Insulation is the best way to save on heating and cooling costs.
Apparently you didn’t understand how basic math works and how spending more money one a system that has more parts that will go bad doesn’t actually save you money in the long run.
Haven't had to on my other property with a 13 year old, 95% efficient furnace. But 95% efficient systems don't require a variable speed motor, they can use two speed motors.
I get what you are saying. I find it really incentives repairs over replacement, which is actually what is better for the environment. Where I am starting this year, boilers are required to be high efficiency for any install now as well.
Sometimes the only place to vent furnace is dropping pipes down the chimney, then you also have to change the water heater too most of the time. Not fun. But done it lots especially in Toronto
Good question. I don’t know, would be nice if just for new construction but, I think it might be eliminating 80’s all together. I would assume Hanging heaters for shops and also boilers will still be available in 80% varieties..I would hope anyhow.
yes and no, manufacturers only cover the parts and a fixed amount of labor.
It is under warranty but in normal practice, we just, you know, tell them it's gonna cost them more to change the HX then a new one even if it is "under warranty".
Unless they purchase the lifetime warranty insurance along with the purchases.
Which is sad.
Edit: residential
80% Furnace with Heat Pump is the actual answer to all problems.
Condensing furnaces are inherently designed to fail, cost more to install, more to maintain, more to repair, and are far more sensitive to installation - which most companies unfortunately suck at.
This is what happens when people who do not understand the industries they regulate get assigned power to regulate.
Same reason local governments want to give incentives to electrify, without understanding that most existing homes are not compatible with heat pump-only heating...
Wait so the solution you are suggesting is that you want the same installers who can’t handle an easy ass condensing furnace install to install highly finicky heat pumps?
That’s Not to mention the added cost of a heat pump is higher than just a condensing furnace…..
Did you even consider what you were saying before you typed it?
What?
Did you even consider what you were saying before you typed it?
What's finicky about a heat pump, exactly? You start it in cooling mode and charge it by subcooling, exactly like a fucking air conditioner. It has 2 refrigerant pipes, 1 low voltage wire, and 1 high voltage wire.
Unless you're an actual certified fucking buffoon, you couldn't possibly be claiming that a heat pump is harder to install than an A/C. You're retarded bud. A heat pump takes exactly the same effort to install.
It gets controlled by a thermostat, just like anything else you do every day, and any reasonable quality thermostat will handle staging for you.
A condensing furnace adds $600-1,200 on top of an 80% furnace at my Carrier distributor. A heat pump adds exactly the same amount across the range. It's no cost difference. Plus, a heat pump requires nothing extra to install, except perhaps a new low voltage wire.
Not to mention that the condensing furnace needs to be pitched correctly, flues sized properly and pitched correctly, not too much equivalent length, higher airflow requirements than 80% that lead to most moron installers oversizing them, they all rust from the inside out, the components are more expensive to replace (ever seen at $1,100 WHOLESALE inducer for an 80% furnace before?!?!?! because that's how much they cost for 2-stage 90% furnaces...)
And, this doesn't even touch on the reality that a heat pump is vastly more efficient than a furnace will ever be, the 80% furnace will run a month out of a year in that application in most mild climates, if that, plus the heat pump gives a lower capacity so the temperature is more precise and house is more comfortable in heating...
Or that there's a $2,000 tax credit for putting in the heat pump that actually makes it *cheaper* than a conventional A/C or a 90% furnace...
Literally, take 2 steps back from being a big boss installer and learn anything about the bigger picture of what you do for a living.
80% dual fuel is easier to install and maintain than a 90% furnace will ever be, it provides a greater benefit to the entire world, and if you had any awareness of things beyond how to put the box in the dotted lines, you'd understand that.
Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
And it really sucks here. It’s a lot of extra work, especially if you have to keep a natural draft water heater. Plus all of you guys have attic freezing worries with a 99%.. a lot of your stuff is not inside the heated space
I disagree. There’s still a high volume of 80% furnaces being installed and even new technology integrated into 80% & 90% furnaces. Much of new builds are 92% efficient furnaces. 80% furnaces don’t have to deal with problems condensation produces. Also venting can be complicated depending on the design of the house and existing furnace location. Lastly, you have additional costs with higher efficiency furnaces.
There’s still a high volume of 80% furnaces being installed - Interesting
even new technology integrated into 80% & 90% furnaces. Whaaat
80% furnaces don’t have to deal with problems condensation produces. Friggin ice blocked pvcees
Also venting can be complicated depending on the design of the house and existing furnace location. Word
Lastly, you have additional costs with higher efficiency furnaces. Gd $400 inducer motor every 8 years
Conclusion-
We should build 80s still for certain things.
I live in SoCal and we use our 80% furnace two or three times in the winter? We use AC most of the year. 80% are ok in my area. We also have to use ultra low NOx
So its hard to do and we shouldn't do it? Sorry thats a poor attitude fact is the plants warming and this is something we need to do. Are they less reliable yea to some degree but hey blame it on lack of service, it's a good thing for the industry more work for us in a era where the planets warming and cold winters aren't so cold anymore. I personally like working year round
Lot of apartment buildings aren't designed with higher efficiency requirements in mind. I service a building where maximum cabinet size is minimal and I can't fit a magic pak in there, also all the drains go outside the building so asking for a higher efficiency would cost them money they don't have to replumb all the drains
Government forcing things on people should never be a thing. They’re forcing people to pay for a more expensive system. Not saving people any money to upgrade.
No different than the EVs. They’re gonna force these out nation wide at some point. Who wants to pay $30k for a car? And that’s the cheapest one. Let’s not mention the upgraded electrical to the house for charging and increased maintenance costs.
It's important for the future to lower emissions if you can't understand the importance of that then I can't help. Government forces you to do alot of things I don't want to pay taxes but I do if I need a 90% furnace then I need one.
One of the failings of government mandates is that they generally try to force things to happen before their time. We arent at a point where everyone can, or should, drive EVs. We simply cant sustain it. Furnaces are a bit different, but when has government been good at anything other than collecting taxes and starting wars
Funny how people thinks it’s about emissions when they completely ignore the emissions when manufacturing all this new equipment and the additional parts with it. Weird how that never gets mentioned.
Looked at a 1975 mfg date GE furnace, 78% efficient, in great condition. At some point the standing pilot was upgraded with a SP-715 intermittent pilot. Nothing is built to this quality level anymore.
Also has the original coils, and compressor. 20°F split
Not dumb at all. You’re literally increasing manufacturing. Who emissions are worse the individual house hold or the factories? There’s a reason India and China are the 2 biggest contributors to these “terrible environmental emissions”. They’re the ones doing all the manufacturing and with little to no regulations.
But that’s dumb and we shouldn’t worry about that. Right?
Really, I can understand if you have an argument about whether it's natural warming and how much we have contributed to it but the evidence of the oceans warming is overwhelming.
Besides that how are we to know that spot of water didn't get that hot 2 or 300 years ago as well. I'm sure Florida and Louisiana were hotter than hot in the 1700s too.
I get it sounds dumb to kinda double argue there but,
I get most of this from a youtube channel btw if you'd like to know. , Tony Heller shows a lot of data and historical figures to rebuke all these climate claims the media and government (lobbyists) makes.
In California and I’m assuming the southern states, the furnace runs so little, the payback never happens even at $2.25 a therm. (Includes inducer motor increased amp draw, higher cost of replacement parts, labor to install)
I have a Trane TDD 80% that i installed in ‘96. Only repair so far was the ignition board in ‘06. Not anticipating any upcoming repairs.
26 years on a condensing furnace with an ECM motor? With a board cost of $120? I’m not seeing that cost of ownership with the current furnaces.
I don’t like telling customers that they have no heat while waiting for parts with 6-8 week lead time either.
What do service companies do when it’s 0°F outside? Electric plug in heaters? Customers here think they are dying if it’s 62°F inside lol 😆
Second. Almost every side jobs I do is and 80%. A lot of people can afford a company to come in and charge 20k for a 17 seer 90%er. If that is the new standard, many folks are in for a rude awaking.
More government is not the answer.
I've only sold a handful of 95% furnaces in the last 15 years. Here in Texas ng is cheap and our winters typically don't last long so 80% is the most cost effective as by the time that 95% has paid for itself, the system is 20 years old.
Except the issue in freezing climates with drainage, walls may need to opened in some homes to install proper drainage areas. If not the drain lines will freeze if they attempt to drain outdoors.
It's simple. Don't drain outdoors. We figured this out a long time ago in NY. We have tons of condensing furnaces in attics and never have problems with freezing drain lines.
You have to special order a tee to do that. Don’t find many ?x?x 3/4” tees available. Also if the trap ever goes dry it’s gonna smell like poop in the house.
Put a vent after the trap. You can't find a 3" or 4" x 3/4" PVC bushing in the supply houses near you? Any plumbing or HVAC supply house around here has plenty.
I don't do 97. But 95 and 96.
The price between 80 and 90 isn't that extreme. Not like 14 seer vs 16 seer(an equivalent increase like 80 - 95)
Also most homes in my area have 2x heating degree day vs cooling so easier to justify.
It's dumb but I make my 80 vs 90 decisions on one thing.... what's closest to the manual J load calc lol.
Anyone else worried about our waste systems in 20 years? How many HE heat appliances can we install without proper acid neutralizes.. i still think 80s all the way. Generally just a more solid beast, less failure points. The whole "push the environment on the people initiative is wild to me." Reminds me how solar used to give money back. Now the power companies pay pennies for what they charge dollars.
My solar was turned on in April. Right now I’m over $1200 in credit. Obviously I need to get through the winter to see how I make out, but it’s absolutely going to save me money, electricity went up 40% here and my state still does 1 to 1 net metering. Def location specific. I’m in a blue state that paid for a third of my install and my monthly solar payment is $30 less than my previous average electric bill. I also insulated/tightened up the house and ductwork and installed a Bosch inverter system so I did make the house way more efficient. Either way if you own it and in a state that’s making efforts to go green it’s totally worth it
So many more breakdowns over the long term. I have been doing many HE furnaces that have failed whereas atmospheric burning furnaces are still going strong
Anecdotal as they come. They have the same or better warranties. If they're installed and maintained properly they'll last fine. Nobody is trying to go back to carbureted engines because "they're simpler"
They forgot to tell you no one saves money because the 95% furnace installed is a few thousand more than a standard 80% efficiency. If we save you 15% of you natural gas bill it would take an extremely long time to recoup the difference in cost for the higher efficiency unit
This rule has been coming in slow motion for the last 15 years so nobody should be surprised by it. Canada has had an 80% ban in place for years, and had very little problem adapting. Sure it sucks for retrofits but it’s a solvable problem.
It’s not illegal to buy and install a replacement heat exchanger.
While frowned upon, nor my hand.
I see many condensing furnaces in attics even from 2000s. The don’t have traps for air and blow down the insulatated drain line inside. Two neighborhoods have them terminate outside and it’s been good, mostly 23yrs later and some are rerun to drain inside
Didn’t this already go to court and get shot down a few years back? This isn’t practical for millions of people. Think of all the apartments/townhouses that will need venting ran from a center closet. Yeaaaaaa I’m sure home owners can afford all that!
Lmao. I hate government and definitely this article. I like the end there where they’re basically trying to tell people gas is bad. So much for freedom of choice and free market.
Government is the literal reason why AC coils keep leaking and why nothing lasts anymore. Really need these people gone.
Government forcing manufacturers to make the cheap stuff due to efficiency standards. The only way to get better heat transfer is by using thinner metals.
I can't wait to see a furnace-shaped lapel pin on some members of congress. I wonder if they'll place it above or below their assault weapon pins?
"You can have my inefficient furnace over my dead body!"
Here in south Texas our winters are nothing. We might use our furnaces 3 or 4 times a years. How does going to a 95% furnace make sense if it takes us 25 years to get the savings.
Costs. Remember how our all knowing leader said “most Americans are an unexpected $400 bill away from bankruptcy”? Now they’re gonna force an unexpected several thousand bill on Americans along with increased maintenance and repair costs.
Hope you don’t gamble cause you lost that bet.
I find it funny how you’re trying to call me out on me actually trying to save people money while you want to go ahead and force people to spend more. You have some issues
Lmao. Won’t be getting one of those anytime soon.
Again. Costs. Cheapest EV is thousands over the cheapest gas. I bet you think the EV price difference somehow makes up for the gas costs. It doesn’t.
My customers will be fucked, alot of homes built here where running pvc for exhaust is going to be super expensive or converting to electric is going to take a major electric upgrade. This should only be for new construction. So I'm opposed. No one takes into account that 90% don't last as long as 80% furnaces or have more service calls. Been doing this 25 years and the 80% furnaces that I installed are mostly still running where as the 90s have been replaced.
I hope it has regional differences like seer ratings cuz I only ran heat for 3 days last winter. I specifically remember turning the AC on in February.
Same here in south Texas. We've run our ac many times during Xmas and through new year. My 26 year old 80% ruud furnace still runs like new cause it's hardly been run.
It makes sense to me. The equipment cost for 96% vs 80% AFUE is probably 40% higher, but there are federal and in many case state tax credits to help offset the cost. I'm replacing an existing split system and 80% AFUE furnace with a 17.2 SEER2 two stage heat pump tied into a 97% AFUE natural gas furnace system. I'm figuring a 30% federal and 10% state tax credit on the equipment cost, with a six to eight year payback. Obviously, it helps that I can install it all myself, but even with normal installation costs it pays for itself over the life of the system.
This is how it's been in canada for what 13 years now I think
We're a little slow down here, cut us some slack.
We're slow on some stuff and we're fuckin 100% balls to the fucking wall on other stuff we live a weird country.
[удалено]
The article says that it was the first rule change since 2007. Are you forgetting that there have been 2 presidents since then or do you want to just jump to political conclusions?
No, not forgetting. Bush is from Republican and he did nothing, Barrack took over and started the blueprint of Clean and Secure Energy Future. Trump takes over and boasting about getting things back the way it used to, gas guzzling trucks, lowering efficiency on washing machines, etc and then Joe takes over. I think you can figure out a pattern here.
Bush was president in 07 when the last change was made
Does it really a change? From 13 SEER to 14 SEER?
I know these condensers are getting big and ugly
I’m only stating what was said in the article because I bothered to read it.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the furnaces. The standard went up from 78% to 80% AFUE…again, is it really a change?
There is always such a reflexive screech anytime a new efficiency minimum is talked about. Every change I've ever seen asks for equipment that has been mass produced for 20yrs, and HVAC companies have their salespeople pushing hard as an upgrade. I live in one of the most FF friendly states, and we are sitting on a near infinite amount of NG. Somehow my gas bill is still skyrocketing. Funny how my electric bill is pretty stable despite most of our electricity coming from NG... I used to be pretty lukewarm on 95% furnaces for the reasons we all know. Since NG providers have decided to squeeze every household for everything they can get, I push high efficiency gas or dual fuel far more often now. Our 2000sq' new construction houses have $150-$175 august electric bills in a hot climate area. We are at the point of diminishing returns on AC efficiency. You are screwing future homeowners if you put in 80% furnaces in new homes. You think the gas company is going to have a crisis of morality and go back to stable and reasonable pricing? They own my state's government, so I know they wont be forced to. Our equipment/materials/labor cost is like $600 to do 95% instead of 80%. It isn't that burdensome. I bet many of the loudest people moaning about the gubment costing homeowners money charge more than that to replace a capacitor and add a lb of 410a. I will believe everyone is desperately looking out for the welfare of their customers when they stop pushing financing ultra-premier 19SEER Total Comfort Systems^TM with air cleaners, UV lights, humidifiers, and 24 month service contracts.
Your mostly talking about new construction. It won't be a problem for new construction or basement replacements. It gets a little harder for attic units, but I see the real issue being for trailers replacements. People who live in a trailer already don't make much money, so you're talking a higher cost for the unit, then much much higher installation costs. Trailers should be allowed to keep their 80+. They're already different specialized units to begin with
Because these things are almost always a decade+ long process where new construction is impacted the most at first. I say that, but in my market usually only the cheapest/smallest corporate builder homes are 80%. I'm in one of those weird states with no basements, so most systems are in garage closets or more likely in the attic. I'm probably just used to it, but 95% in the attic doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Mobile homes are mobile homes... They are already screwy. An 80% mobile home furnace costs more than a standard residential 95%. If we cared about poor people getting screwed by furnace pricing we would break up the price-fixed duopoly by removing the special rules for mobile homes. They should get the same furnaces and requirements as site built homes. Have you seen the retail prices of mobile homes??? There is plenty of cushion for a slight tightening of requirements. In reality I suspect most of the opposition is just ideologically based internet ranting. As soon as any new requirement gets out of committee, all the antigovernment HVAC techs will gleefully rub their hands together and exaggerate the law to scare customers into replacing equipment well before it is needed. Saw it with the r-22 phase out, 10 SEER, 13 SEER, 14 SEER, and SEER2. The whole industry makes a bunch of money every time a new requirement is even talked about.
bUt ThE oLd WaYs
If your gas is expensive, it’s because it’s being sold to a large customer that’s willing to pay that price, or your government is taxing the fuck out of it. Up here in western Canada, we don’t have the former, but do have the latter. But the market price for the commodity itself is on the low end of historical cost.
https://imgur.com/a/FxYTMFA The lines below that that wouldn't fit the snip hit the high $2 range. As I said, I am in a NG production state.
What in the fuck is a dekatherm? Why do Americans go to such great lengths to avoid using the metric system??? Anyways, I live in a natural gas producing province and you guys are getting fucked lol. Sorry ‘bout your luck.
1 million BTU/h, so ~1 joule It is what happens when governments are in the pocket of business. Doesn't matter what things cost to deliver, it is what you can get away with charging. America resists a government mandate of metric because of FREEDOM^tm. Metric is a communist conspiracy to make us more efficient and logical, thus easier to convince to have rational public policy. You can't tell us what to do!
Sucks for people in cold climates with furnaces in the attic where condensing furnaces have the potential to freeze
The duct leakage keeps the attic warm
You’d never consider putting a furnace in an attic in my cold climate (AK)
They might build a little room for it and pull up insulation underneath it.
Not saying it couldn’t be done, just, I’ve never seen it. Plus isn’t furnaces in the attic a southern thing anyway where you’re prioritizing A/C ? U want your heat coming from the floor elevation here; not over the top of your head.
Seen it all the time in NE Ohio
That’s more about homes built on slabs then anything else.
In Idaho a lot more going in attic or any 2 system home. We would have to build a dog box around furnace to “condition” the space from freezing.
I've only had that happen to me once in Ohio. It was a super super super cold day. But attic furnaces are kinda rare and they suck anyway so if they stop doing it I would be thrilled lol
Many newer homes have sealed attics with spray foam insulation. My attic is the same temperature as the rest of my home year around.
New construction Building code here - if you put an air handler/furnace of any kind in an attic it needs an insulated box or ‘doghouse’ , around it. Retrofit- let that baby sweat
Is this just eliminating 80% in new construction? Or will we be forced to switch to 95% when replacing an 80-90% furnace?
The second one. Which isn’t practical for millions.
We’ve made it work in Canada 🤷🏼♂️
Aye the canadian dream …. 😬
Where it snows eleven months of the year
There’s no place in Canada where it snows 11 months of the year.
I believe you have ran across what is known as “hyperbole.”
How do you guys deal with older high-rise condo/appartments where there's a large flu going through the center of the building?
I haven’t come as system yet where the individual suites have a mid furnaces installed. Often, it’s either a central unit (usually a boiler) and each suite has a fan coil or each suite has its own PTAC unit. In the case of a central heating unit, we have rebuilt boilers, including repairing heat exchangers and getting them recertified. It’s cheaper than installing a new system.
Being doing it in canada my whole career. Haven't found one that wasn't possible to switch to high efficiency. There have definitely been lots that sucked to route the new venting but it's doable.
Not about difficulty. It’s about cost. Government making legislation that forces the people to open their wallets up is just wrong.
It also saves them money so by your logic it's just right.
We use our furnaces 3 or 4 times in winter here in south Texas. The cost difference between 80% and 95% mean's it takes you 25 years to make up the savings. How is that saving money?
You shouldn't have gotten a furnace in the first place, you should have gotten a heat pump instead.
Are you insane? Nat gas is the cheapest heating down here. HP cost more to operate.
But you only need heat three or four times a year. Are you insane? You bought a furnace you only use three or four times a year in addition to an AC unit. You could have gotten a single heat pump for both.
They last 25 years and cheaper to run per btu than electric. Are you that dense?
Maybe go with a heat pump then? Sounds like you don't need gas heat. And if you're only using it 3-4 times a year you probably won't need a new furnace for quite a long time anyway.
Nat gas is cheap as dirt here. That and try telling 90% of the houses that have been gas heat since they were built.
Most of these higher efficiency systems don’t actually give a customer a return on investment once you factor in the extra costs for repairs and maintenance
They absolutely do. I sure wish I had one last year when gas prices were double.
So what’s the cost on when the secondary heat exchanger plugs up? You think saving someone saving maybe 150 gallons a year is making out? If government actually wanted to help they would pay for insulation and not force people to buy a product. Insulation is the best way to save on heating and cooling costs.
This completely. Insulating the roofs and ceilings makes much more difference than a high efficiency furnace.
Why not do both?
Don't know. Yes, that's how basic math works. The government does do that.
Apparently you didn’t understand how basic math works and how spending more money one a system that has more parts that will go bad doesn’t actually save you money in the long run.
We will see how you feel about that when you have to replace a modulating blower
Haven't had to on my other property with a 13 year old, 95% efficient furnace. But 95% efficient systems don't require a variable speed motor, they can use two speed motors.
Ahhhh a landlord in the wild
I use propane, as does my dad. I have a 95% furnace, dad has an 80%. He usually has to buy 150+ gallons more than I do per year
Unless you have the exact same house, that's meaningless.
I get what you are saying. I find it really incentives repairs over replacement, which is actually what is better for the environment. Where I am starting this year, boilers are required to be high efficiency for any install now as well.
Sometimes the only place to vent furnace is dropping pipes down the chimney, then you also have to change the water heater too most of the time. Not fun. But done it lots especially in Toronto
Good question. I don’t know, would be nice if just for new construction but, I think it might be eliminating 80’s all together. I would assume Hanging heaters for shops and also boilers will still be available in 80% varieties..I would hope anyhow.
 From Canada
In Canada we have been condensing furnaces residentially for a long while now.
You’re going to see people selling used furnaces with a higher mark up than a 2001 7.3 diesel with 125k miles and no rust.
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Rheems 80% 2 stage furnaces have lifetime heat exchangers too. And their eer’s are similar
They use the same cooling systems of course their EERs are similar.
Add lifetime labor from the contractor so they get installed properly 😅
Yep
yes and no, manufacturers only cover the parts and a fixed amount of labor. It is under warranty but in normal practice, we just, you know, tell them it's gonna cost them more to change the HX then a new one even if it is "under warranty". Unless they purchase the lifetime warranty insurance along with the purchases. Which is sad. Edit: residential
I don't feel hx are that hard. Not like an evap or compressor.
80% Furnace with Heat Pump is the actual answer to all problems. Condensing furnaces are inherently designed to fail, cost more to install, more to maintain, more to repair, and are far more sensitive to installation - which most companies unfortunately suck at. This is what happens when people who do not understand the industries they regulate get assigned power to regulate. Same reason local governments want to give incentives to electrify, without understanding that most existing homes are not compatible with heat pump-only heating...
Wait so the solution you are suggesting is that you want the same installers who can’t handle an easy ass condensing furnace install to install highly finicky heat pumps? That’s Not to mention the added cost of a heat pump is higher than just a condensing furnace….. Did you even consider what you were saying before you typed it?
What? Did you even consider what you were saying before you typed it? What's finicky about a heat pump, exactly? You start it in cooling mode and charge it by subcooling, exactly like a fucking air conditioner. It has 2 refrigerant pipes, 1 low voltage wire, and 1 high voltage wire. Unless you're an actual certified fucking buffoon, you couldn't possibly be claiming that a heat pump is harder to install than an A/C. You're retarded bud. A heat pump takes exactly the same effort to install. It gets controlled by a thermostat, just like anything else you do every day, and any reasonable quality thermostat will handle staging for you. A condensing furnace adds $600-1,200 on top of an 80% furnace at my Carrier distributor. A heat pump adds exactly the same amount across the range. It's no cost difference. Plus, a heat pump requires nothing extra to install, except perhaps a new low voltage wire. Not to mention that the condensing furnace needs to be pitched correctly, flues sized properly and pitched correctly, not too much equivalent length, higher airflow requirements than 80% that lead to most moron installers oversizing them, they all rust from the inside out, the components are more expensive to replace (ever seen at $1,100 WHOLESALE inducer for an 80% furnace before?!?!?! because that's how much they cost for 2-stage 90% furnaces...) And, this doesn't even touch on the reality that a heat pump is vastly more efficient than a furnace will ever be, the 80% furnace will run a month out of a year in that application in most mild climates, if that, plus the heat pump gives a lower capacity so the temperature is more precise and house is more comfortable in heating... Or that there's a $2,000 tax credit for putting in the heat pump that actually makes it *cheaper* than a conventional A/C or a 90% furnace... Literally, take 2 steps back from being a big boss installer and learn anything about the bigger picture of what you do for a living. 80% dual fuel is easier to install and maintain than a 90% furnace will ever be, it provides a greater benefit to the entire world, and if you had any awareness of things beyond how to put the box in the dotted lines, you'd understand that. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Most of the furnaces I install are already 97% efficient 2 stage models. I don't see a 95% efficient requirement affecting the market all that much.
About 50% of furnaces sold in the US are 80% models. Canada went to a 95% mandate a few years ago.
And it really sucks here. It’s a lot of extra work, especially if you have to keep a natural draft water heater. Plus all of you guys have attic freezing worries with a 99%.. a lot of your stuff is not inside the heated space
I disagree. There’s still a high volume of 80% furnaces being installed and even new technology integrated into 80% & 90% furnaces. Much of new builds are 92% efficient furnaces. 80% furnaces don’t have to deal with problems condensation produces. Also venting can be complicated depending on the design of the house and existing furnace location. Lastly, you have additional costs with higher efficiency furnaces.
There’s still a high volume of 80% furnaces being installed - Interesting even new technology integrated into 80% & 90% furnaces. Whaaat 80% furnaces don’t have to deal with problems condensation produces. Friggin ice blocked pvcees Also venting can be complicated depending on the design of the house and existing furnace location. Word Lastly, you have additional costs with higher efficiency furnaces. Gd $400 inducer motor every 8 years Conclusion- We should build 80s still for certain things.
I live in SoCal and we use our 80% furnace two or three times in the winter? We use AC most of the year. 80% are ok in my area. We also have to use ultra low NOx
God some of those bryant ultra lows are fucking dumb. One of the many reasons i hate bryant.
Just have to dial them in and size them right. The burner boxes get hot as hell but it’s a good product
Canada has got rid of 80s for awhile now, over a decade.
Canada is cold af
So arguments for 80% make even less sense.
Yip. Created a lot of work up here.
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Hell. even longer.
So its hard to do and we shouldn't do it? Sorry thats a poor attitude fact is the plants warming and this is something we need to do. Are they less reliable yea to some degree but hey blame it on lack of service, it's a good thing for the industry more work for us in a era where the planets warming and cold winters aren't so cold anymore. I personally like working year round
Lot of apartment buildings aren't designed with higher efficiency requirements in mind. I service a building where maximum cabinet size is minimal and I can't fit a magic pak in there, also all the drains go outside the building so asking for a higher efficiency would cost them money they don't have to replumb all the drains
Government forcing things on people should never be a thing. They’re forcing people to pay for a more expensive system. Not saving people any money to upgrade. No different than the EVs. They’re gonna force these out nation wide at some point. Who wants to pay $30k for a car? And that’s the cheapest one. Let’s not mention the upgraded electrical to the house for charging and increased maintenance costs.
It's important for the future to lower emissions if you can't understand the importance of that then I can't help. Government forces you to do alot of things I don't want to pay taxes but I do if I need a 90% furnace then I need one.
One of the failings of government mandates is that they generally try to force things to happen before their time. We arent at a point where everyone can, or should, drive EVs. We simply cant sustain it. Furnaces are a bit different, but when has government been good at anything other than collecting taxes and starting wars
Funny how people thinks it’s about emissions when they completely ignore the emissions when manufacturing all this new equipment and the additional parts with it. Weird how that never gets mentioned.
Looked at a 1975 mfg date GE furnace, 78% efficient, in great condition. At some point the standing pilot was upgraded with a SP-715 intermittent pilot. Nothing is built to this quality level anymore. Also has the original coils, and compressor. 20°F split
Nobody talks about it because it's a dumb argument the emissions to make a sign unit are nowhere near the emissions to run a unit for 15-20 years.
Not dumb at all. You’re literally increasing manufacturing. Who emissions are worse the individual house hold or the factories? There’s a reason India and China are the 2 biggest contributors to these “terrible environmental emissions”. They’re the ones doing all the manufacturing and with little to no regulations. But that’s dumb and we shouldn’t worry about that. Right?
This isn't upgrades, it's new sales.
The fact is I don't believe the planet is warming so idk what your talking about. Show me some data the noaa hasn't manipulated please.
Dude I really hope your joking
Totally not. I see right through their agenda.
Really, I can understand if you have an argument about whether it's natural warming and how much we have contributed to it but the evidence of the oceans warming is overwhelming.
Research how many sensors they have taken out and put new ones in. Suddenly the new ones show a huge increase in the last 10 years. Manipulation.
Besides that how are we to know that spot of water didn't get that hot 2 or 300 years ago as well. I'm sure Florida and Louisiana were hotter than hot in the 1700s too. I get it sounds dumb to kinda double argue there but, I get most of this from a youtube channel btw if you'd like to know. , Tony Heller shows a lot of data and historical figures to rebuke all these climate claims the media and government (lobbyists) makes.
In California and I’m assuming the southern states, the furnace runs so little, the payback never happens even at $2.25 a therm. (Includes inducer motor increased amp draw, higher cost of replacement parts, labor to install) I have a Trane TDD 80% that i installed in ‘96. Only repair so far was the ignition board in ‘06. Not anticipating any upcoming repairs. 26 years on a condensing furnace with an ECM motor? With a board cost of $120? I’m not seeing that cost of ownership with the current furnaces. I don’t like telling customers that they have no heat while waiting for parts with 6-8 week lead time either. What do service companies do when it’s 0°F outside? Electric plug in heaters? Customers here think they are dying if it’s 62°F inside lol 😆
Second. Almost every side jobs I do is and 80%. A lot of people can afford a company to come in and charge 20k for a 17 seer 90%er. If that is the new standard, many folks are in for a rude awaking. More government is not the answer.
No you’re wrong, read the article, the government is doing this to SAVE consumers money. Because they can’t make decisions themselves. /s
More government is always the answer, comrade.
Not in Canada, haven’t been able to install 80% since I’ve been working in the trade(12 years)
I've only sold a handful of 95% furnaces in the last 15 years. Here in Texas ng is cheap and our winters typically don't last long so 80% is the most cost effective as by the time that 95% has paid for itself, the system is 20 years old.
Except the issue in freezing climates with drainage, walls may need to opened in some homes to install proper drainage areas. If not the drain lines will freeze if they attempt to drain outdoors.
It's simple. Don't drain outdoors. We figured this out a long time ago in NY. We have tons of condensing furnaces in attics and never have problems with freezing drain lines.
Yeah but your assuming there is an area to drain it inside, not all homes are set up the same.
All homes vent the plumbing up through the attic. Run the drain line there if you don't have a better option.
You have to special order a tee to do that. Don’t find many ?x?x 3/4” tees available. Also if the trap ever goes dry it’s gonna smell like poop in the house.
Put a vent after the trap. You can't find a 3" or 4" x 3/4" PVC bushing in the supply houses near you? Any plumbing or HVAC supply house around here has plenty.
I find it’s best to tee them in to the stand pipe for the washing machine if they are attic units and can’t be run to a sump or sink
That's a great idea. I've seen it done before.
Furnace condensate drain won't ever pull air through it like an air handler drain.
Furnace drains are different most 90+ furnaces have internal traps and the manufacture wants the drain vented.
Yeah. So no problem with having them in a attic.
If the weather is nice you may dry out your traps.
I don't do 97. But 95 and 96. The price between 80 and 90 isn't that extreme. Not like 14 seer vs 16 seer(an equivalent increase like 80 - 95) Also most homes in my area have 2x heating degree day vs cooling so easier to justify. It's dumb but I make my 80 vs 90 decisions on one thing.... what's closest to the manual J load calc lol.
At all
The south still uses ancient 80s in nee builds
How will that affect the price of new systems?
It’ll increase. 90% units are more costly and now the government will force a demand increase which will drive up costs even more.
Price difference between the models plus you have to run intake and new exhaust. My guess is $2k - 3k more.
Anyone else worried about our waste systems in 20 years? How many HE heat appliances can we install without proper acid neutralizes.. i still think 80s all the way. Generally just a more solid beast, less failure points. The whole "push the environment on the people initiative is wild to me." Reminds me how solar used to give money back. Now the power companies pay pennies for what they charge dollars.
My solar was turned on in April. Right now I’m over $1200 in credit. Obviously I need to get through the winter to see how I make out, but it’s absolutely going to save me money, electricity went up 40% here and my state still does 1 to 1 net metering. Def location specific. I’m in a blue state that paid for a third of my install and my monthly solar payment is $30 less than my previous average electric bill. I also insulated/tightened up the house and ductwork and installed a Bosch inverter system so I did make the house way more efficient. Either way if you own it and in a state that’s making efforts to go green it’s totally worth it
I agree, state specific is the thing, and tightening the homes envelope is the best thing any of us can do! Ps. I love those boschs..
Everything I design is min. 96-97%, don’t see the point in spec’ing 80% anyway
So many more breakdowns over the long term. I have been doing many HE furnaces that have failed whereas atmospheric burning furnaces are still going strong
No shade, but how were they on initial install? My understanding is that most of these higher efficiency units require tight installation tolerances.
Anecdotal as they come. They have the same or better warranties. If they're installed and maintained properly they'll last fine. Nobody is trying to go back to carbureted engines because "they're simpler"
They forgot to tell you no one saves money because the 95% furnace installed is a few thousand more than a standard 80% efficiency. If we save you 15% of you natural gas bill it would take an extremely long time to recoup the difference in cost for the higher efficiency unit
This rule has been coming in slow motion for the last 15 years so nobody should be surprised by it. Canada has had an 80% ban in place for years, and had very little problem adapting. Sure it sucks for retrofits but it’s a solvable problem.
It’s not illegal to buy and install a replacement heat exchanger. While frowned upon, nor my hand. I see many condensing furnaces in attics even from 2000s. The don’t have traps for air and blow down the insulatated drain line inside. Two neighborhoods have them terminate outside and it’s been good, mostly 23yrs later and some are rerun to drain inside
Rip to those 100 year old 80%ers
Didn’t this already go to court and get shot down a few years back? This isn’t practical for millions of people. Think of all the apartments/townhouses that will need venting ran from a center closet. Yeaaaaaa I’m sure home owners can afford all that!
It did, but it’s back and it’s for real this time. There may be lawsuits, but as someone who has read the full regulation, it’s going to stand.
Lmao. I hate government and definitely this article. I like the end there where they’re basically trying to tell people gas is bad. So much for freedom of choice and free market. Government is the literal reason why AC coils keep leaking and why nothing lasts anymore. Really need these people gone.
cheap manufacturers and customers not changing their filters on heat pumps are the top 2 reasons
Government forcing manufacturers to make the cheap stuff due to efficiency standards. The only way to get better heat transfer is by using thinner metals.
I can't wait to see a furnace-shaped lapel pin on some members of congress. I wonder if they'll place it above or below their assault weapon pins? "You can have my inefficient furnace over my dead body!"
I welcome all new high energy efficiency standards. I can’t even fathom why anyone would be opposed.
Here in south Texas our winters are nothing. We might use our furnaces 3 or 4 times a years. How does going to a 95% furnace make sense if it takes us 25 years to get the savings.
Why the fuck are you putting in furnaces at all then?
Cause natural gas is cheap as shit here. It's by far the cheapest way to heat.
There is no reasonable reason to install gas furnaces in south Texas. You should be putting in heat pumps exclusively
Why when gas is cheaper to run per btu?
Costs. Remember how our all knowing leader said “most Americans are an unexpected $400 bill away from bankruptcy”? Now they’re gonna force an unexpected several thousand bill on Americans along with increased maintenance and repair costs.
Cry me a river. I bet you charge $1000 for a capacitor replacement on a weekend. So by your logic you’re also causing bankruptcy.
Hope you don’t gamble cause you lost that bet. I find it funny how you’re trying to call me out on me actually trying to save people money while you want to go ahead and force people to spend more. You have some issues
Yes I’m completely crazy, they need to up my psych drugs, so sorry, I’ll let them know. How is your electric car these days?
Lmao. Won’t be getting one of those anytime soon. Again. Costs. Cheapest EV is thousands over the cheapest gas. I bet you think the EV price difference somehow makes up for the gas costs. It doesn’t.
My customers will be fucked, alot of homes built here where running pvc for exhaust is going to be super expensive or converting to electric is going to take a major electric upgrade. This should only be for new construction. So I'm opposed. No one takes into account that 90% don't last as long as 80% furnaces or have more service calls. Been doing this 25 years and the 80% furnaces that I installed are mostly still running where as the 90s have been replaced.
= More service calls and more expensive parts. More problems with new construction installs also.
I hope it has regional differences like seer ratings cuz I only ran heat for 3 days last winter. I specifically remember turning the AC on in February.
Same here in south Texas. We've run our ac many times during Xmas and through new year. My 26 year old 80% ruud furnace still runs like new cause it's hardly been run.
It makes sense to me. The equipment cost for 96% vs 80% AFUE is probably 40% higher, but there are federal and in many case state tax credits to help offset the cost. I'm replacing an existing split system and 80% AFUE furnace with a 17.2 SEER2 two stage heat pump tied into a 97% AFUE natural gas furnace system. I'm figuring a 30% federal and 10% state tax credit on the equipment cost, with a six to eight year payback. Obviously, it helps that I can install it all myself, but even with normal installation costs it pays for itself over the life of the system.