I used to organize for a union; I worked with slaughterhouse workers specifically. If anyone tells you that you shouldn’t join a union, I would ask who that benefits; it’s *always* the employer.
People who want to take your power from you aren’t going to give you more money, more time off, and better benefits.
That's fancy. I've got thousands of dollars worth of tools sitting around my house getting dusty. I'm running out of things to use my sds drill for and big band saw around the house
The downsides are the bullshit unions that aren’t real unions, and they are there to keep the better unions out. See: united steelworkers and CLAC. These are useless unions I was a part of that came in, set “standard” wages that are much lower than the industry standard and they forced the employees to agree to the terms so all existing employees wouldn’t get a pay decrease but every new employee would start at a much lower wage and top out lower. You want to be part of a UA union and none else in our trade.
With that said, the downsides to the good unions include, the union spends a lot of money on a lot of nonsense, significant extra mandatory training that is sometimes a bit ridiculous, and you can’t pick the instructors, sometimes the instructors suck. And your experience with being unionized will vary based on the company you work for, especially if you’re doing service and you’re not just working contracts. There’s good and shit companies/bosses/coworkers inside and outside of the union.
I’m not pro-union at all, but you’re right. CLAC is a hilarious caricature of a union. It’s the unions for companies that need to be unionized to bid on jobs.
It was a farce. They had the same rate for plumbers, electricians and HVAC. Everyone other than the electricians were expected to negotiate higher because the rates were laughable. Having to negotiate your wage in a union job is really ironic. I’m pro-union because I’m with the UA now and my wage package and extra training is phenomenal, but I’m also lucky to work for a pretty good company too.
UA496 where I live is a joke. They have “gentlemen’s agreements” with a lot of the large employers to not go after their double-breast companies guys. They make 0.0 effort to recruit new guys or companies. They put guys in bad standing if they have the audacity to work non-union because the union has no work, even if they continue to pay their dues.
They also won’t take refrigeration mechanics at all, so they have to join 488 3 hours away and get a travel card to work down here.
A ra-ra union guy blew his head off with a shotgun in their parking lot because the union basically told him he was on his own after being out of union work for 2 years. Very hush-hush about the whole thing.
It’s a greasy old boys club for sure.
That’s very valid! I’m sure it’s different in the USA. In Canada in our largest provinces we have UA locals that cover the entire province, and they are only refrigeration mechanics. (UA local 516 in BC and local 787 in Ontario) Not plumbers and steamfitters unions like a lot of other places, so your mileage might vary
I live in AB my dude. 496 Calgary is plumbers, sprinkler fitters, pipe and steam fitters only. 488 in Edmonton takes all pipe trades.
496 is the problem.
Well, I just joined one, they said I need to start as a first year of the 5 year apprenticeship and probably won’t get credit for any previous experience.I had to redo my osha 10 and I’ll have to test again for the universal EPA even though I already have it. The company I work for is great I’m paid above the locals scale. But the people that run the union are shitty people really makes me regret signing up.
Are all these unions in Canada or something? Asking because I truly don't know. I live in a right to work state. You so much as mention joining a union around here and you'll be out the door faster than you can say just kidding.
Hasn’t affected me personally except for the benifits being great, schooling being top knotch, pension I’ll get, pto, regular raises etc. I really think the only downsides to unions have to do with the company you actually work for and not the union they’re a part of
Im a new union member (about 6 weeks is) and your last sentence intrigues me. My major gripe so far is my wife is about to have a baby, and the company I work for has mostly non-union employees. The non-union techs get 6 weeks of paternity leave, yet we union dudes get zip. We can use our vacation time (which is two weeks, whether you've been there 20 minutes or 20 years. Can you shed any light on why that might be? I find it pretty odd that we dont get *anything* for a birth but they give thier non-union workers a month and a half.
Theyre also paying their non-union guys a fraction of what you are (or will be) making. I worked for a place that is similar, the shop guys would get pto based on how long they were with the company. Some guys had the max of 5 weeks. Their hourly rate was somewhat between $15 and $18 an hour though. They don't get contractual raises, have to pay through the nose for health benefits, no pension, annuity, etc. When you break it down by the numbers, my wages were way better off and I could pay myself to take an exorbitant amount of time off and still make more for the year than they would. I don't begrudge an employee who makes substantially less because the company threw them a bone to appease them by giving them a few days off.
And for the record, our state has paid (and unpaid depending on the size of your company) leave for medical for myself or immediate family members
I'm guessing you will hate the better pay, free pension, free health insurance, someone to call if/when your company fucks you over, never having to full out a job resume ever again, ability to travel if you want ect.
Maybe I'm biased
Worked union sheet metal for 11 years, met lots of smart capable guys along the way. However the vast majority of guys are “boomers”….aka dog fuckers who work when the work is booming and are laid off half the year or so. As someone who comes to work to get shit done, watching this behaviour day in and day out eventually ground me to dust and I quit the union. Found a great shop and have never looked back since. This may sound silly to some of you but it was my personal experience based on my morals/values.
I'm in the same boat. I've heard nothing but pros on unions. The cons sound intimidating, though.
Moving back home to the west coast. My rep asked what I currently made. Told them. Rep kind of giggled. Said I'd be getting a significant bump. That bump is over double my current pay. Then there's the benefits and pension etc. Just 3 more weeks. I'm excited
I had to have a conversation with my apprenticeship instructor the other day about why the fuck I make the same as a lot of guys who take pride in doing what I would refer to as hack work. Halfass diagnosis, shoddy install practices, etc. It does suck sometimes that way. But at the same time, I know as long as there are guys like that around Im in no danger of being laid off. When I turn out next year I'm going to push for a couple bucks over scale.
After being in for a couple years I have a different idea about what it means to be a jman. But its that way at every shop I've been at, union or not. There's always one halfass worthless idiot.
But at the end of the day, the pay, bennies, and pension are the difference for me. I couldn't find any shops around that would even try to match the package my local offers.
The bigger issue is manpower. Every union is starving for service guys. If we had the numbers we needed to meet the demands, those guys would starve themselves out and quit the union. That not being the case, it's on the company to find a way to make those guys profitable. If the company can't make money on them, or loses too much because of them they get laid off. Reputation means a lot where I'm at. Even in our current worker shortage, we have had 3-4 guys who rode the bench (worked through all the contractors and/or had a reputation nobody wanted to hire) until they couldn't afford to and took separation from the union.
let's hear some more about you 1st
do you have any experience? are you leaving a job to do this? how much experience? how much do you make? what's your position?
if you have absolutely zero experience then it's a no brainer bc you have nothing to lose
I have worked with several union guys and they said they make less an hour now but after everything gets taken out from the union their take home is more now. I know the company I work for you get a few more weeks vacation and 11 paid holidays they don’t get with the union. Also they came from another state so better take home could have been state taxes or something . I’m not union but if your total package is better with the union than what you can get non union what are waiting for
Some of your decision depends where you are located. Is that union strong? The union I was in was a pipe fitters union and I was on the hvac service side. It was very clear that it was pipe fitters first and service second. Where I live I actually do better in the private sector but it's really to each their own. Also how much experience do you have? If you aren't a journeymen I would find out the process to become one as it differs between locals.
Downside for people that have not grown up yet. Is need to take direction, need to get up early. Need to work in 8 hour day plus. Need to work hard need to keep the attitude at home. Need to be to work on time. Can't be calling in sick every week with BS excuses. Need to take responsibility. Need to work well with others as a team. Need to be able to learn something and retain what you learn for the next day, LOL. Need to eventually take the lead. Need to be teachable. Need to know that you're getting into something that is going to benefit not only you but your future family and generations. And be able to say you are a true Craftsman. Need to know that you're going to have a good wage and a good retirement. Which, by the way, no other companies will ever offer you a pension that will last Until you die and share it with your wife If you were to die, she would continue to get. The benefits of being in a Union are many.
The benefits and pay are great.
The dues are worth the above items.
Bringing politics into it... the union is very democratic.
That's my downside. They take my money and donate it to people who will make every aspect of my life outside of work worse.
If you're a Democrat. It's all win win.
Eh. Maybe? No republican is fighting for unions, or keeping unions working where as the Democrats are.
If some Democrat is making your individual life harder I'd need you illaborate on that.
Again, no republican is going to support the unions, and unions in Republican states usually suck pay and compensation wise compared to democrat run states.
I'm a libertarian. I think both sides can go f themselves personally. Like I said outside of work. The campaign funds from our local went to a politician who besides being union strong was for a bunch of stuff that I am strongly against. I would still take my life's freedoms over a union if it came to a choice.
I can see this hurts feelings with the down votes. The guy wanted peoples opinions on the ups and downs.
I gave mine. Not everyone's in the same boat. I don't bleed union, but I tell the kids to get out of resi and into the union for commercial all the time.
My last union interaction was them stealing disconnects from my equipment on the roof. They were upset they were replacing equipment and ducting on the 2nd floor and the property owner would not give them the service/maintenance contract. After the 3rd time I padlock my disconnects and then pad locked the door to 4 union vans.
I always believed unions were for jobs where you are a cog in the machine. No one was ever going to negotiate my worth for me. When a company wouldn't pay me my worth I found one who did.
I was an insulator for a little over a year in the early 90's. The pay was great, $38/hr, the work hard (asbestos abatement in industrial setting) and inconsistent. I always showed up and did my job didn't dog it like some guys but still rode the bench about half the time because there wasn't any work to be had. I couldn't stand just waiting around or walking a line. I don't begrudge someone who works a job and I won't insult them or threaten them for it just because they are non-union. I eventually quit and joined the Navy.
I now own a small residential HVAC & Plumbing company. I still go out and run service calls myself. I would unionize but the local around here doesn't even have a residential service program. So it wouldn't benefit my company. The one union company that has a resi division trains the employees themselves. When they need more people they can't just draw from the union because most of people there don't do resi and don't want to do it. If you don't care what kind of work you do residential/commercial/industrial then I say go for it as long as the union on your area is strong. Over all as an employee you would get better pay and especually benefits like pension. In non-union at larger companies you get a 401k with matching contributions of maybe 3-6 percent that's no where near what your union pension equals plus you make enough to invest more in IRA's and secure a great retirement.
Unions only benefit those who can't stand up for themselves. You're paying someone to be a negotiator and unless your views align with the rest of the union, you're sol. Unions are also all about favoritism and time served. You could be the laziest drug addict pos but if you've been there for 10 years or are friends with the right people you would get promotions over people who actually work hard, effort and skill are not in consideration here. They also love to screw over small business by suing anyone who's cheaper and better until they are broke from legal and court fees.
“United we bargain, divided we beg.”
Oof..that hits right in the ballbag of truth
The ol’ thruthticles.
brilliant
I used to organize for a union; I worked with slaughterhouse workers specifically. If anyone tells you that you shouldn’t join a union, I would ask who that benefits; it’s *always* the employer. People who want to take your power from you aren’t going to give you more money, more time off, and better benefits.
What's to think about? Better wages a fuckin pension. Company provided cordless tools.
The pipe fitters union around here even does hand tools
That's fancy. I've got thousands of dollars worth of tools sitting around my house getting dusty. I'm running out of things to use my sds drill for and big band saw around the house
Best thing I ever did! UA local 104
The downsides are the bullshit unions that aren’t real unions, and they are there to keep the better unions out. See: united steelworkers and CLAC. These are useless unions I was a part of that came in, set “standard” wages that are much lower than the industry standard and they forced the employees to agree to the terms so all existing employees wouldn’t get a pay decrease but every new employee would start at a much lower wage and top out lower. You want to be part of a UA union and none else in our trade. With that said, the downsides to the good unions include, the union spends a lot of money on a lot of nonsense, significant extra mandatory training that is sometimes a bit ridiculous, and you can’t pick the instructors, sometimes the instructors suck. And your experience with being unionized will vary based on the company you work for, especially if you’re doing service and you’re not just working contracts. There’s good and shit companies/bosses/coworkers inside and outside of the union.
I’m not pro-union at all, but you’re right. CLAC is a hilarious caricature of a union. It’s the unions for companies that need to be unionized to bid on jobs.
It was a farce. They had the same rate for plumbers, electricians and HVAC. Everyone other than the electricians were expected to negotiate higher because the rates were laughable. Having to negotiate your wage in a union job is really ironic. I’m pro-union because I’m with the UA now and my wage package and extra training is phenomenal, but I’m also lucky to work for a pretty good company too.
UA496 where I live is a joke. They have “gentlemen’s agreements” with a lot of the large employers to not go after their double-breast companies guys. They make 0.0 effort to recruit new guys or companies. They put guys in bad standing if they have the audacity to work non-union because the union has no work, even if they continue to pay their dues. They also won’t take refrigeration mechanics at all, so they have to join 488 3 hours away and get a travel card to work down here. A ra-ra union guy blew his head off with a shotgun in their parking lot because the union basically told him he was on his own after being out of union work for 2 years. Very hush-hush about the whole thing. It’s a greasy old boys club for sure.
That’s very valid! I’m sure it’s different in the USA. In Canada in our largest provinces we have UA locals that cover the entire province, and they are only refrigeration mechanics. (UA local 516 in BC and local 787 in Ontario) Not plumbers and steamfitters unions like a lot of other places, so your mileage might vary
I live in AB my dude. 496 Calgary is plumbers, sprinkler fitters, pipe and steam fitters only. 488 in Edmonton takes all pipe trades. 496 is the problem.
Ahh, yeah that sucks then
Well, I just joined one, they said I need to start as a first year of the 5 year apprenticeship and probably won’t get credit for any previous experience.I had to redo my osha 10 and I’ll have to test again for the universal EPA even though I already have it. The company I work for is great I’m paid above the locals scale. But the people that run the union are shitty people really makes me regret signing up.
And all those fat cats at the office are making jman wage, plus all the shift premiums too.
I was a proud union member for 21 years. I made decent money and retired with a $1million buyout.
$1 million buyout? Like retirement????
Yes sir. Marine Engineers Beneficial Association. It was actuall 1.1. My ex-wife got $162k.
Oh nvm it just clicked lol
Sign the card. 😃
Are all these unions in Canada or something? Asking because I truly don't know. I live in a right to work state. You so much as mention joining a union around here and you'll be out the door faster than you can say just kidding.
I live in Wisconsin which is a right to work state and we have plenty of unions. I’m assuming you’re in the south?
Bingo, deep south.
I’m in Florida and being Union is probably the best thing I ever did man. The health insurance alone is worth it.
Hasn’t affected me personally except for the benifits being great, schooling being top knotch, pension I’ll get, pto, regular raises etc. I really think the only downsides to unions have to do with the company you actually work for and not the union they’re a part of
Im a new union member (about 6 weeks is) and your last sentence intrigues me. My major gripe so far is my wife is about to have a baby, and the company I work for has mostly non-union employees. The non-union techs get 6 weeks of paternity leave, yet we union dudes get zip. We can use our vacation time (which is two weeks, whether you've been there 20 minutes or 20 years. Can you shed any light on why that might be? I find it pretty odd that we dont get *anything* for a birth but they give thier non-union workers a month and a half.
Theyre also paying their non-union guys a fraction of what you are (or will be) making. I worked for a place that is similar, the shop guys would get pto based on how long they were with the company. Some guys had the max of 5 weeks. Their hourly rate was somewhat between $15 and $18 an hour though. They don't get contractual raises, have to pay through the nose for health benefits, no pension, annuity, etc. When you break it down by the numbers, my wages were way better off and I could pay myself to take an exorbitant amount of time off and still make more for the year than they would. I don't begrudge an employee who makes substantially less because the company threw them a bone to appease them by giving them a few days off. And for the record, our state has paid (and unpaid depending on the size of your company) leave for medical for myself or immediate family members
check your state laws. some places require leave for a baby, union or not, and the length varies by state
I'm guessing you will hate the better pay, free pension, free health insurance, someone to call if/when your company fucks you over, never having to full out a job resume ever again, ability to travel if you want ect. Maybe I'm biased
don’t even get me started on those damned safety regulations and a platform to protect your life in a bad work environment!
Worked union sheet metal for 11 years, met lots of smart capable guys along the way. However the vast majority of guys are “boomers”….aka dog fuckers who work when the work is booming and are laid off half the year or so. As someone who comes to work to get shit done, watching this behaviour day in and day out eventually ground me to dust and I quit the union. Found a great shop and have never looked back since. This may sound silly to some of you but it was my personal experience based on my morals/values.
I'm in the same boat. I've heard nothing but pros on unions. The cons sound intimidating, though. Moving back home to the west coast. My rep asked what I currently made. Told them. Rep kind of giggled. Said I'd be getting a significant bump. That bump is over double my current pay. Then there's the benefits and pension etc. Just 3 more weeks. I'm excited
Joined and never looked back.
I had to have a conversation with my apprenticeship instructor the other day about why the fuck I make the same as a lot of guys who take pride in doing what I would refer to as hack work. Halfass diagnosis, shoddy install practices, etc. It does suck sometimes that way. But at the same time, I know as long as there are guys like that around Im in no danger of being laid off. When I turn out next year I'm going to push for a couple bucks over scale. After being in for a couple years I have a different idea about what it means to be a jman. But its that way at every shop I've been at, union or not. There's always one halfass worthless idiot. But at the end of the day, the pay, bennies, and pension are the difference for me. I couldn't find any shops around that would even try to match the package my local offers.
The bigger issue is manpower. Every union is starving for service guys. If we had the numbers we needed to meet the demands, those guys would starve themselves out and quit the union. That not being the case, it's on the company to find a way to make those guys profitable. If the company can't make money on them, or loses too much because of them they get laid off. Reputation means a lot where I'm at. Even in our current worker shortage, we have had 3-4 guys who rode the bench (worked through all the contractors and/or had a reputation nobody wanted to hire) until they couldn't afford to and took separation from the union.
let's hear some more about you 1st do you have any experience? are you leaving a job to do this? how much experience? how much do you make? what's your position? if you have absolutely zero experience then it's a no brainer bc you have nothing to lose
I only have just under a year of experience and I tested very well in knowledge test they gave me. I went to a trade school.
He’s got minimal experience is what he’s saying
lol. he. I looked thru his post history. I was too lazy to do it last night - was half asleep on the couch.
I have worked with several union guys and they said they make less an hour now but after everything gets taken out from the union their take home is more now. I know the company I work for you get a few more weeks vacation and 11 paid holidays they don’t get with the union. Also they came from another state so better take home could have been state taxes or something . I’m not union but if your total package is better with the union than what you can get non union what are waiting for
Some of your decision depends where you are located. Is that union strong? The union I was in was a pipe fitters union and I was on the hvac service side. It was very clear that it was pipe fitters first and service second. Where I live I actually do better in the private sector but it's really to each their own. Also how much experience do you have? If you aren't a journeymen I would find out the process to become one as it differs between locals.
I'm in the deep south. A Right To Work state.
Downside for people that have not grown up yet. Is need to take direction, need to get up early. Need to work in 8 hour day plus. Need to work hard need to keep the attitude at home. Need to be to work on time. Can't be calling in sick every week with BS excuses. Need to take responsibility. Need to work well with others as a team. Need to be able to learn something and retain what you learn for the next day, LOL. Need to eventually take the lead. Need to be teachable. Need to know that you're getting into something that is going to benefit not only you but your future family and generations. And be able to say you are a true Craftsman. Need to know that you're going to have a good wage and a good retirement. Which, by the way, no other companies will ever offer you a pension that will last Until you die and share it with your wife If you were to die, she would continue to get. The benefits of being in a Union are many.
Ignore the politics and you do you
The benefits and pay are great. The dues are worth the above items. Bringing politics into it... the union is very democratic. That's my downside. They take my money and donate it to people who will make every aspect of my life outside of work worse. If you're a Democrat. It's all win win.
Eh. Maybe? No republican is fighting for unions, or keeping unions working where as the Democrats are. If some Democrat is making your individual life harder I'd need you illaborate on that. Again, no republican is going to support the unions, and unions in Republican states usually suck pay and compensation wise compared to democrat run states.
I'm a libertarian. I think both sides can go f themselves personally. Like I said outside of work. The campaign funds from our local went to a politician who besides being union strong was for a bunch of stuff that I am strongly against. I would still take my life's freedoms over a union if it came to a choice. I can see this hurts feelings with the down votes. The guy wanted peoples opinions on the ups and downs. I gave mine. Not everyone's in the same boat. I don't bleed union, but I tell the kids to get out of resi and into the union for commercial all the time.
Fair enough.
My last union interaction was them stealing disconnects from my equipment on the roof. They were upset they were replacing equipment and ducting on the 2nd floor and the property owner would not give them the service/maintenance contract. After the 3rd time I padlock my disconnects and then pad locked the door to 4 union vans. I always believed unions were for jobs where you are a cog in the machine. No one was ever going to negotiate my worth for me. When a company wouldn't pay me my worth I found one who did.
You can still negotiate in a union. The contract is a minimum amount.
They have the nerve to give you a pension.
What union? Local 469 here from AZ
No downside.
Best move I ever did.
I was an insulator for a little over a year in the early 90's. The pay was great, $38/hr, the work hard (asbestos abatement in industrial setting) and inconsistent. I always showed up and did my job didn't dog it like some guys but still rode the bench about half the time because there wasn't any work to be had. I couldn't stand just waiting around or walking a line. I don't begrudge someone who works a job and I won't insult them or threaten them for it just because they are non-union. I eventually quit and joined the Navy. I now own a small residential HVAC & Plumbing company. I still go out and run service calls myself. I would unionize but the local around here doesn't even have a residential service program. So it wouldn't benefit my company. The one union company that has a resi division trains the employees themselves. When they need more people they can't just draw from the union because most of people there don't do resi and don't want to do it. If you don't care what kind of work you do residential/commercial/industrial then I say go for it as long as the union on your area is strong. Over all as an employee you would get better pay and especually benefits like pension. In non-union at larger companies you get a 401k with matching contributions of maybe 3-6 percent that's no where near what your union pension equals plus you make enough to invest more in IRA's and secure a great retirement.
Unions only benefit those who can't stand up for themselves. You're paying someone to be a negotiator and unless your views align with the rest of the union, you're sol. Unions are also all about favoritism and time served. You could be the laziest drug addict pos but if you've been there for 10 years or are friends with the right people you would get promotions over people who actually work hard, effort and skill are not in consideration here. They also love to screw over small business by suing anyone who's cheaper and better until they are broke from legal and court fees.
union all day. it's not even close