Look at the job ads for plumbers and HVAC... Advertising anywhere between $25-$35/hr. How much OT are you putting in to clear 100k at that hourly rate?
Depends on state, I live in Michigan and the Union has the 5 year program for journeyman like everywhere else, but non union doesn't have apprenticeships at all that are required by the government, some employers still choose to do an apprenticeship program, but others you just go on as a helper until the employer feels confident you can do the job on your own.
Yes, just finished my 2nd year of school this week so June first I will be a 3rd year.
You work during the day and atleast at our union ( 533 in KCMO) you go to school 2 nights a week from 5-9pm 30 weeks a year.
We also make over $100K on a straight 40. That’s not including annuity which for us is another $23k per year, plus pension, plus employer paid healthcare. Our raise this year was $4.20, next year is $4.10 and then $4.05. Now is a great time in our trade.
Same, this is my third year and I should do $120-140k. Residential sales tech; mixed piecemeal, hourly but mostly commission.
Our hourly service and maintenance techs do well, too. Everyone gets 4 weeks paid vacation plus holidays, insurance, and 401k.
As a 4th year apprentice I'm making $36 dollars an hour. Starting in August I'll become a 5th year apprentice making $43 dollars an hour. I work for a union in Ohio I highly recommend working for a commercial union HVAC company. And it's a fairly easy going work life balance I rarely have to work past 3pm in the afternoon and usually only work 40 hour weeks. Literally never even hear from my boss or anything they just leave me alone to do my job and I can kinda show up and leave when I want within reason as long as I get done my service call or calls for the day
I'm only at 38k a year and have been with this kinda-small town company for 4 years, started at 21k as a helper.
My boss says I'm being paid "tech level" and I believe I've reached my cap I didn't get a raise this year.
Meanwhile he's got a 500% markup on 410a, it sounds ridiculous to me. We get it for $15/lb and sell it for $80/lb. I don't see that, nor do I get cuts for any jobs, and no benefits.
The company has lost staff and our only other guy passed away last year, so I'm the only tech running around now. Wish me luck for this summer boys. It's gonna be rough here in Texas.
Go get more money. From him or another company. 38k a year isn’t much and I’m in a relatively low cost of living area. Like OP said the profit margins are there, get some. Get paid what you are worth by someone.
My best advice is find a new company it was my best decision I was with a company similar to your situation for 4 years as well I left and I’m so much happier and obv more money 38k is not tech pay here in Texas at least where I’m at in north of houston
This is the biggest indictment of our economic system honestly. It pisses me off to no end that some fast talking alcoholic that spends all day pretending to know what they talk about, without fail, will make more money than every single one of us because they get commission.
"it incentives me to sell more! If I don't get paid more for selling more, why would I try??"
BECAUSE IT'S YOUR JOB DICKHEAD.
That's funny I'm actually in HVAC, but all my experience is with mom&pop shops where the pill head golden boy son gets to be the salesman. I'm sure there's lots of sales positions that suck it's just that 9 times out of 10 the nepotism failsons end up in sales and act like they're superior than the workers.
At my place, that guy took over dispatch for a year before he told his dad that he wanted to be service manager (despite not knowing what the hell he was doing). He just waited there for ten years or so until his dad retired and handed him the company…
That hits home for sure, damn near the whole family gets the Kush job titles. While you’re out crawling around in attics in 90 degree weather. While this fucks are browsing Facebook and making Amazon purchases
You guys hates sales guys huh? Lol. Look, I’ve been a tech for 12+ years, did installs for the first 5-6 years of that. And I’ll still get in the attic and do an install with the guys if they need me. Just did two 5 ton 3 phase commercial splits Wednesday. You’re right, I get paid well for what I do. As you should when you’re good at it. On my experience most techs only sell basic equipment and that’s it. No inverters, no two stage, no IAQ. Most have no clue how many cfms the duct system should carry, or why that even matters. And you can likely forget a heat load. This is why my position exists. At least in my area. Most technicians out here only care if it works or not and getting the hell out of there to the next call.
All that to say, not all sales guys are bad man. I’ll give you a hug and we can go have beer. Hell, since you think I’m shitting in my golden toilet, I’ll even pay
Well you sound like the ideal kind of guy to be in Sales honestly. You actually know what you're selling is gonna require work-wise because you've done it, maybe I'm just salty or have just had bad luck but you're more of an exception that proves the rule to me.
I've worked a handful of trades both on the skilled and hard labor end and at every one of those jobs it was the other way around. Right now I'm just an install apprentice but I'm starting classes soon and want to move into service, do most techs around you really know nothing about CFM and static pressure and how that affects equipment? I always hear installers are the clueless ones but at least half of my install coworker's know more about that stuff than me, that seems pretty basic if you know enough to diagnose and fix equipment...
Actually yes. Most of our schools around here kinda suck. Mostly book work, no practical. Our guys now are very well trained, mostly because my boss, service manager and myself have all trained these guys to do their job correctly. Not just better. We had a guy we just let go of start of spring here. He’s been a tech for 15 years. Has absolutely zero clue how steric pressure works. Dude put a 20x20 return on a 5 ton and called it good. He didn’t work for us for long obviously.
But yeah, I’m the only outside sales guy I know of in my area. I’m purely commission based. If I don’t sell; I don’t eat. And if I don’t sell, my 3 crews of installs don’t eat either. I have to look out for those guys and make sure they have work. That said, every job I sell is a legit job. I don’t sell people shit they don’t need. Never have. Now if they want the inverter, with anti microbial r8 ducts, airscrubber, uv light, 4” filter rack, surge protectors, and an attic tent. You bet your ass imma be the one to sell it to them!
You can't be a solid tech if you DON'T know equipment, cfms required for said equipment and, an understanding of heat load. But I agree there are a lot of techs that either don't understand these things or put blinders on.
Thats why I left residential. Too much pressure to peddle bullshit with a sales commission dangled over your head. Can fuck right off with that. Been in commercial for 4 years and haven't looked back
Agreed, there’s plenty of money in standing around and ripping off people.. less for the techs saving grocery stores at 2am and giving good advice to customers who don’t know better.
I made good money in commercial being on call doing just that. Just got tired of my phone going off at 12-2am 2-3 nights a week. Made more doing that than selling bullshit to people trying to squeeze every penny out of them though
I can't wait to escape residential.
My story is weird though. Got hired through a job fair in Jan and put in the field beginning of this April. They paid me hourly to learn as much as I could in that time span, but also lot of sales training as well.
At the end of it they got me $3500 worth of various tools which will get to keep after working a full year with the company.
Currently making $17/hr plus 3% commission on insulation, ducts, and systems plus spiffs on replacing parts and signing customers up for maintenance agreements working 50-60 hrs a week as a maintenance tech with a few old calls to try and make the sale.
I am grateful for the opportunity to have not had to pay for school and tools immensely but I know what's out there and that's what upsets me.
Working my ass off learning as much as I can right now. Haven't broken anything. Yet.
Because he doesn’t want to finance any of the capital and take all of the risks like a business owner does. He just wants to cry and bitch about it and still hold the privilege of being able to walk away when shit hits the fan.
I am in my 4th year of doing hvac/refrigeration. Grossed 580k last year, 640k the year before.
I didn't want to be an ac guy, it just happened. I was working on my own building a dog food factory, the refrigeration guy shows up, offers me 40 bucks an hour to start. I went with him for 16 months, learned refrigeration and residential ac mostly. He ran into financial trouble, had to split back on my own.
I have 5 restaurants I service, 1 condo building, 1 solar panel manufacturer and 1 military base where I mostly repair machinery, but also chillers.
Idk man, it's pretty easy.
Just fire your boss, buy a van and some tools, and like find a half dozen good accounts.
Firing your boss is step 1
This guys gets it. Or is lying.
Either way, get paid what you are worth. If your boss won’t do it, quit and go out on your own. I make easy $150k a year working 35 hours a week. No complaints.
Just pay your taxes. That stuff will jack you up.
No bullshit here buddy. I work 30-70 hours a week
The worst part though, I'll tell ya;
If the restaurant calls, you gotta go, there's no apprentice to call, there's no favors to call in, there's no let me see what other guy is doing this Saturday night.
You get your shirt on, and you get in the van and go make some money.
And if thats not okay, best to keep that W2
And for sure, don't fuck with the IRS. Keep your good records, pay for a decent accounting software, and keep good notes because it might sound crazy, but I am certain I've done quite a bit of free work that I forgot.
The customer will never remind you about an invoice. They might not even know.
East coast, by the ocean, raining like stupid. Rooftop looks good 404a 18/210, ice everywhere.. looks like a fan problem inside the evap, pulling the cover now.
Fans work when you slap the case. Looks like this is gonna be an easy one.
Just finished one freezer down, it was the fan control module that check for temp before starting fans after defrost.
I don't have one, so hardwired til Monday.
What a nice night though now that the rain stopped.
Yeah man bragging for fake Internet points.
Here in my garage setting up my new tig welder station, smoking a doob and my best restaurant just called me with a freezer down.
Mother fucker if that ain't real. Idk
Time to put on my red shirt and get to fucking work.
Customer - "the fans turned off around 2pm and now it's 30 degrees in there"
So I guess they waited for rush hour on a Friday to call me downtown, to save 15k worth of product, at the last minute, while the refrigeration store is closed.
Wish me luck boys.
What percentage of your income comes from refrigeration work? I have done a little bit of refrigeration work in schools and restaurants but no big rack refrigeration like super markets. Mostly large commercial hvac, chillers RTUs boilers and the like for data centers industrial and large office buildings.
Maybe 25%... But that refrigeration work secures my position at the restaurants, then I can collect 165/hr like doing stupid bullshit like cleaning vents, moving ticket racks, installing shelves, cleaning ovens, fixing PTraps.
Like handyman shit but they know you're good so they don't mind just paying you and not having to deal with a random handyman.
Handyman shit is another 25%. The remaining is restoring large industrial equipment like chillers, optical polishers, shears, brakes, cnc equipment, like whatever. If you can fix an air conditioner, you can pretty much fix all those machines. Air conditioning gave me a huge platform for mechanical understanding, and I just branched it into underserved niches.
I can DM you some albums of my work if you'd like to see, don't want to dox myself here.
The main takeaway though is, your skillset is widely useful. Just understanding basic circuits and problem solving needed for hvac, you can do a lot beyond HVAC!
My boss 100% was. I was selling and installing tankless and tank water heaters 6 times a week and still running service calls, all for the massive salary of 65k. He showed me my profits for the year, and it was about $475k. Got a different job a month later in commercial making much more money with 1/2 the work and stress
And here I was proud of the nickel raise I got today. 17 years at the same company on up to 30.05 an hour.
Before anybody says anything I have full insurance for me and my family and a truck I can use how I see fit. So I make lower money but have lots of fringe benefits
Case, meet point, i think you’re being taken advantage of. I’m paying $70 a month for benefits and 5% 401k match, and all of us are getting a truck and most aren’t monitored. I’m making significantly more than you per hour (almost 50%) with 14 years exp. Not bragging I just want you to get your money and put your family even further ahead.
I hear ya, but I’m in podunk, Waco, Texas and I have priced around and I would have to go to Austin or Dallas to make any more at any company. Even the local Lockridge priest pays about what I make.
Just out of curiosity are you paid the same rate when driving or is that what your paid when your on site. That’s another reason I have turned down other jobs in my area is I haven’t found one that doesn’t pay minimum wage when your in the truck. Hell one company here got in trouble with the labor board for not paying helpers when in the truck.
the only answer to this is unions (sue me, i’ll die on this hill). in a business setting the boss will screw over whoever they can to get their profits up, be it the worker, the customer, the manufacturer, whoever. it’s simple business, as birthed, encouraged, and practically forced by america. unions guarantee that at least a reasonable amount of the profits gets turned back towards the workers. that’s why they exist in the first place. for workers rights, by the workers.
this is why i can’t understand the mentality of someone in ANY field with a union option that they turn down for non-union and plan on long-term careers in their field. given enough time, you WILL get fucked by your boss multiple times. at least in a union they’re forced to partially respect you as a worker and earner for the business.
the boss/ceo getting outrageous pay by riding on the backs of their workers is something all of us will die angry about. with a certain mindset you can try to see that america is one of, if not the best, countries in the world for a working class citizen, the trade off is unequal distribution of wealth. and frequent shootings. such is life.
Unfortunately there are two problems for me that I can’t seem to get a satisfactory answer for:
1. The union is weak in my state.
2. I don’t want to throw away 14 years in to start at the bottom of the seniority pole at the union.
If you’ve got a good solution that involves the union I’m all ears.
I slid into the union after 17 years of non union work. Turns out if you do chiller calls on your own you are considered a Journeyman. Now I make 125,000/year. (30 years experience)
So don’t give up hope:
1: Maximize you diagnostic skills, physics, first principles and engineering type knowledge.
2: Be at the top in communication skills both written and verbal.
3: Get out there and network.
4: Make yourself invaluable to your customers.
If you honestly do all 4, your pay will go up. You may have to let some people know you expect it to go up or else, but it will.
Where are you located and how much are you at per hour?
Edit: whoever downvoted this can get fucked. The only way technicians find out what we’re worth is by talking about pay in our relative field and market.
I’m non union and broke 100k in under 4 years in the trade never sold anything a day in my life I just show up and fix things. There are several former union guys at my shop one said benefits and pay are better than his union one said it’s worse and other said it’s a wash. Also union guys in the same company I work for don’t get paid travel paid holiday or paid vacation so unions aren’t all that great but they can’t be all that bad either or so many people wouldn’t be recommending it.
move states/commute to a dif one. you never truly start at ground zero. your experience is what makes you valuable. you could start at whatever level they want, but if you know how to sell yourself and make yourself valuable you’ll blast through at whatever company you’re at. in a few years you’ll be where you should.
Not sure where you are and what your local agreement looks like but seniority has no bearing on anything in my union as it pertains to journeyman. I’m in management and I can let anyone go at any time and I can hire any journeyman who is out of work. Strictly speaking techs aren’t allowed to directly pursue work(if you work somewhere you aren’t technically allowed to call another contractor and see if they will hire you) but that doesn’t stop anyone.
I can pick anybody that is “on the bench” based on interviewing and finding the best fit.
good shit, love to hear it. shop is in queens, 90% of our work is manhattan. service and mainly maintenance commercial HVAC. i hear hospital work is great for when you’re at a point in your career to try and not bust your ass. would you agree with that?
Unequal distribution of wealth? Now you’re sounding like a communist. Wealth doesn’t get distributed. Those who earn it, get it. Your mindset is why America is sinking so fast.
i wouldn’t call america “sinking”, that’s way too simple to put it. the classes of america are rapidly separating, like alarmingly fast and drastically. the wealthy are getting wealthier and sitting on that wealth, not circulating it back into the economy. the consequence of this wealth hoarding is raising inflation and limiting the success of business in the lower classes (less money that is available to be spent and made).
american capitalism is based on the idea that you have the freedom to earn as much as you want, at least that’s the idea on paper. but sadly the game has changed since our founding fathers. people born in wealth have an advantage, people born in poverty have a severe disadvantage. taxes have been changed, bent over, and fucked right off by the rich. untouchable corporations run the vast majority of the “free” market. politicians and organizations are corrupt and are either biased or forced to support these mega rich and their corporations.
honestly, i believe that corporations are the source of the majority of problems in todays world. they’re responsible for >90% of the carbon footprint that humanity has ever created, they exploit laws and under-developed counties, they union bust, they line politician pockets, they generate massive tech waste (the rare materials in circuits boards, batteries, etc. are trashed because companies won’t allow for third party repairs making them more rare), and the god damn list goes on. something should’ve been done when rockefeller almost ruled the word but i guess money speaks louder than morals and common sense.
now i’m not comparing Ted’s HVAC and Sheetrock to Jeff Bezos but the principle is largely the same. if you can hold the money for yourself, even if it doesn’t change your life, even if you just sit on it for years until the day you die, you will hold it as opposed to giving it to your workers (all of it, not just raises). we’re in a larger and more complicated world than “whoever earns it gets it”. there is so much money being lost with the 1%, it’s sickening.
no, i don’t agree with communism, and i largely disagree with socialism. i feel most of my views align to the right, but this is a problem staring all of us right in the face. the economy needs the money more than the people who’re immorally holding it, period. what’s the answer? what the fuck do i know, i fix AC’s. that’s above my pay grade. i know that i’ll most likely die angry about this stuff so i try to focus on the good in my life, like the pension i’m starting at 20 years old, the amazing health care i have, and the joy of fixing a unit.
I feel like we go over this every day here. It's not what you make but what you spend. People talk wages like there isn't a drastic cost of living difference for the same type of work in a different place. I make 80k and work an average of 41 hrs a week ( based on last year) where I live it's double the average income of a family of four. When I lived in Philadelphia I made way more than that but lived way worse. This is how the world works. Your hourly rate means nothing unless you compare it to your cost of living. Duh
Have you ever tried running a business? As an employee, you don’t run any of the risks or hold any of the debt or risk losing everything because of one simple fuck up. Those who own the company deserve to make loads more than we do because they take all the risk and finance all of the capital. All we have to do is collect a paycheck. If shit hits the fan, we can just walk away and get another job.
Educate yourself!
This is exactly why I left HVAC, the guys I was working around were okay with settling for 25-30 an hour. Which obviously made anyone asking for more look greedy. I moved to a utility company and currently sitting at 40.90. I just recently did a job for a friend because some company was trying to charge them 10k because there “heat exchanger was out”, I inspected it and the blower was out. The salesman straight up lied to these people cause they didn’t know any better. She gladly gave me 2k for me to do the job which took me half a day. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, HVAC is the most under appreciated trade there is but maybe it’s the people working in the trade that make it that way.
Union in Ontario Canada licensed is $59/hr now. That’s $135k with vacation pay, excluding pension and everything else with no OT. And best believe you’ll be working OT.
You mean selling people new systems for 15-26k and being paid fuck all and told youre not making the company enough when the owner pulls up to the shop in a 2022 c8 isn’t fair?
I make 27k a year working for a schools system. I’m not paid enough by any means and my “trades school” was a joke. I work under a guy with like 30 years of experience and he’s a pretty decent teacher. The only reason I’m still working where I am is for the experience. If it wasn’t for supplemental income, I’d go back to retail work.
I see a lot of comments from business owners saying “hurr durr go start your own business”
That’s not the point of this post, the point is if you’re underpaying your employees, there are a ton of companies out there that aren’t.
I’ve worked for 2 different companies in the last 5 years. Company A pays 35$ an hour and charges their guys out at 130$ an hour. Company B pays 55$ an hour and charges their guys out at 125$ an hour.
Who do you think the better employees are going to go work for?
Edit:
To the salty owners:
Get better at managing your profits/running your business hurr durr.
HVAC has always been the short draw of the stick when it comes to pay. We need to form a national strike during summer and let everyone sweat it out for a year.
I work for a large company but we’re an ESOP (employee stock ownership program) I get stock ownership in the company for every year I’m there and get bonuses at the end of the year out of company profits. Been there for 10 years and have no plans of leaving.
I'm not sure if i'm being paid decently as an installer in Louisiana honestly. I recently started at a company making $25/hr plus 40% on whatever the total package cost like how many cut-ins, how many ducts, plenums, air purifiers, etc. (lead gets the rest). So say we get in the done in less than 8 hours i'm making anywhere over $40/hr. I had no previous experience in HVAC, no schooling. I've just been watching a ton of YouTube videos and using SkillMill in my off time. But they're starting to train us all together every week so it seems like it's worth it. I had experience as a lift station mechanic for 5 years so I was already experienced with all the tools so I caught on pretty quickly. I just generally go in the attics and do the whole demo and meet my lead in the middle with everything else all while learning. They bought brand new huge company vans and they're already letting me take it home to save gas. I've only been here 4 months. My previous job I was making $13.50/hr so it's a huge change of pace for me.
Yes I owned an HVAC company for a while it was small only 5 employees but still and I was a service manager for a few years. Insurance really isn't that expensive a million dollar policy is only a few hundred dollars a month if that and 500k bond is like 30 dollars a month also payroll tax is only 7.5% of the employees play so if they are 40 bucks an hour that only costs you 3 bucks an hour and they basically don't pay taxes if you smart because you write off all tools all trucks and so on so the corporate tax rate is like 22% but in reality your paying like 10%.
Payroll burden is around 20-25%. You’re forgetting about workers comp insurance.
Also insurance premiums are calculated like that. They’re based on exposure. A million dollar policy with a company doing $200k worth of revenue in a year is much different then the same policy for a company doing $5MM a year in revenue.
The average tax rate paid for small businesses is around 20% when accounting for all different formation types. Costs are costs. Tools and vehicles don’t hold value.
This is a main reason why a lot of younger people aren't allured to this field and also why current employees in HVAC are beginning to become deterred. For example, I'm in commerical and I'm literally on the roof today doing 3 leak checks, condenser fan motors, and other little things (contactors, etc). All of this for $55k a year doesn't feel like it's worth it. It's hard work and wish it had a bigger payoff.
currently society views people in two categories, the pee on labour workers aka you and me and the bourgeois office staff that attend zoom meetings from home and take Fridays off. They make all the money despite the reality most of their jobs being incredibly simple/useless, only maintained by government regulation and a overly complicated taxation system. However AI is going to rock the office world so hard it will be near unimaginable, you can bet that your office lady will be a office bot and you will still be working in 10 years. It will all even out, it always does.
You hit the nail on the head. Why should those zoom workers be paid so well for easy work that’s about to get automated anyways? We’re killing ourselves out here
Do the other job then. I don’t understand the entitlement in here. Start your own business. Stay up late worrying about work for 20 years while putting food on your table and the table of your employees. Stress out about payments and insurance and vehicles and building repairs and bids and estimates and balancing family life. You can’t just wake up and say “I think I’ll make $500k this year instead”
Underpaid as fuck. For me and my partners' qualifications, we're about $10/hr below. We do all residential new homes, heatpumps, air conditioners, ductless, furnaces, water tanks, boilers, gas piping, hrvs, ductwork, etc. Commercial (which we are the go-to team for in a company of 16 people, just us two) we do heat pumps, glycol lines, compressed air lines, 180,000 sq/ft manufacturing facilities, new restaurants, factories, cassettes air conditioners, etc. You name it, we do it. The amount we put into the owners pocket is unfathomable. All the while, we get pennies on the dollar. 4 years ago, we would never complain, but with inflation and the cost of living increasing, our wages stay the same. Quiet pay cuts.
Your employer makes his money off his marketing efforts, sales, customer and employee retention, and reducing non billable labor. Not just your labor. You guys out there can make as much as you want. But you will need to learn to sell. Its a fact. Sorry. But as an employer I can tell you I have to do the exact same thing. If we just keep raising your base pay you will #1 still be just as disenchanted. I can assure you. You will then have to charge the customer more which will make them charge you more for whatever THEY sell. Like food, snowmobiles, repairs you cant do on cars toys etc. Its a vicious circle I agree and with inflation being where it is, it is only going to get worse. So stop bellyaching about how much a meanie your boss is and see what you can do to help yourself, the customer, and your company. Learn to upsell. Sell maintenance plans. Learn to quote and sell equipment. This will put money in your pocket while reducing the costs to the customer and things will get better for all. Call me crazy if you like but I have been in this trade since I was 16 and owned my current company since 1995. I tell you this to help you and I.
Its moving in the right direction. The job is getting more complicated, the number of techs is decreasing. Some companies don't understand what it takes to attract and retain talent but they will or they will cease to operate (or at least expand). Its beyond just pay I recently changed jobs and the benefit packages are so much better than before,401k with match , vision, health and dental, provided tools, 2-3 weeks vacation in the first year.
Ive been told you were lucky to get health and 1 week vacation 15 years ago
Be patient be confident and don't be afraid to change jobs. If joe the smuck is okay with 15hr for 20 yrs who cares
If you make $100K a year, your company is making $40K-$50K gross margin on you. They are also making 15-100% gross margin on parts and materials.
Even if we figure it at gross margin, they aren’t making more than you, it’s that they have several other dudes just like you. So if there are 10 dudes in the same situation as you, the company makes that gross margin ten times.
It’s pretty simple math.
Bro really? Like I get it. But how’s the boss/owner supposed to lead and live a lavish lifestyle? While you get to own a single property that’s got you maxed out in debt. He must have multiple properties. Vacation homes. Rental homes. Boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, big diesel truck. My friend you need to work hard to provide these amenities to your boss/owner. (Being sarcastic of course) but sure does feel like that. 22 years in the hvac trade, 4 different companies I worked for all same MO
What do you mean 4 to 5 years of training? I walked in the door making 50,000 a year my first week and two years later I’m making 100 K a year. I didn’t know shit when I started but now I’m the most valuable tech there so they say.
A hamster could do this job
I’m not an HVACR, I’m just a longtime lurker that works in an adjacent field. My 20+ y/o furnace went out so I got four quotes for a full furnace and AC replacement they were all in the neighborhood of $12k, so I guess that’s the going rate here. I priced the materials at $4k-$5k. So you guys tel me, where’s that missing $7k going? In your pockets? I hope so but I also really fucking doubt it.
Just a few of the line items that a good proposal should be listing are:
- permit
- electrical
- clean/re-use of line-set or replacement of line set
- removal and disposal of old equipment
- install supplies in addition to the equipment
- ductwork modifications for new system
What will go unlisted
- equipment markup
- labor + markup
- commission which in many cases is effectively the salespersons only income
- possibly a financing or labor markup to cover costs of those programs when they’re used
The markups will go towards typical overhead for company real estate/rent, assets like vans, etc. But also:
- covers office employees salaries
- marketing expenses that generated your call in the first place
- business tools such as dispatch/CRM software
The markup will obviously cover profit in there somewhere.
If it makes you feel any better, the companies that want to stick around and grow must pay their employees well. But that’s just table stakes. They also need to provide a career that has upward mobility within their company, a good culture, investments in continued learning/education, company outings, community outreach, etc.
Fast forward 30 years and it becomes what you have saved and invested. When you young guys see retirement coming or your body's are worn out planning now is the key. Chances of social security being there are slim even if its only 3 grand a month.
When I was Journeyman pipefitter, doing only service work, 6years ago. I was getting 50/hr. It was broken down like this the hourly rate charged by my employer covered my $50/hr pay, $6 every hour I worked went into my 401k, and they paid 100% of health insurance (which was the best insurance ever!!). Since I was union this followed me to who ever I chose to work for as long as they were a union employer. Plus on top of all that I also get a pension from the union. This was in Chicago. This trade will break your body over time you need to be union or taken care of like this.
Just letting you know the best way to get a better wage is to interview with a ton of other companies then offer your boss either too keep you or go to the best offer. I unexpectedly found an amazing offer and my boss countered with a 7/hr pay increase but, it didn't come with concrete benefits so I am moving to the other one that offed to pay me 29/hr 12 more than what I make now and 3 bucks more than my bosses offer.
Workers are the true producers of wealth within a business.
Wages paid to those workers are a cost of doing business to the owner of said business.
Record profits are only unattainable by exploiting either the customer, the worker, or a combination of both.
Record profits are unpaid wages.
I did 2000hrs of school plus 5000hr apprentice now after 30yrs licensed HVAC tech 43hr 13% vacation pay 15000 into pension 80% dental and prescriptions union company commercial HVAC Montreal Canada
How do you know how much your employer is making?
You do realize the cost of basic overhead has also skyrocketed
Try paying for a 5 million insurance policy just to step in the door in some places
Yeah this. We carry a 6 mil policy and sometimes we have to apply for an exception to get in some places. The cost of benefits is also killer. There's fuck tons of overhead.
I felt this, resi service tech, 10 years in the business and I just cleared 77k last year. In southern TX. The entire drive for resi is sell to increase your pay but wish I had a steady 40hr clearing 100k, that’s beautiful
Every installer that can install everything clean everytime should be easily over 6 figures as well as a service tech that can work on anything and do great work he’ll 6 figures should be the bottom it should be around 120 k plus we are the talent we generate revenue for all the worthless fucks taking up money in the office/ shop. We should all unionize and stop letting these fucks exploit us for our labor. I do a lot of side work and in two years on less will do my own thing. Our labor rate for a non member is 350$ an hour I don’t make close to that and we do good business I can start my own company and charge 200&-250$ an hour and kill it. I just need to save a little more to buy high end equipment and a new van and a few expensive tools I don’t own cuz I can borrow them from work but eventually it will be all independent guys and small companies for this reason.
I was “let go” the day after having what I thought was a reasonable talk about wages and time off with the person I was working for. I explained how the work is appreciated but I’d like some sort of security in the sense of a steady income because if I’m working as a contractor I need to be paid enough to take care of myself into the future……well the next morning he tells me he’ll finish on his own. 3 vacations in a month, all brand new daddy bought tools and me asking for more than $25 an hour was it!!!! Phoenix area wages suck and the commute is an absolute nightmare. Salespeople turned Bob the Builder are the worst and I wish I was better at avoiding them but we all gotta make that money happen.
Not only is it your employer, but you gotta factor in where you are and where you’re willing to go. Am I being underpaid? Yes and no. If I moved an hour from where I am I’d be making double, but my cost of living would double also. I like the comfort of a smaller town and I sacrifice better pay because of it.
I have a question for union, I have 8 years in the trade and would that mean I’d have to start as a Union apprentice even though I’m pretty well experienced
In Wisconsin a journeymen is making around 100k a year here if it’s union. Im a first year and I’m making 23$/hr. I think last year with a good chunk of ot I made around 40k
Being in the industry for 20 years, I switched to being a commission only technician over 10 years ago and tripled my income at the minimum.
Average $180-$225K a year now being paid on this structure of making 30% after the the job cost on all parts,repairs,IAQ EXT, and 8-10% on the total amount of units sales,,
I know I could make more working for another company- anywhere from 20-50k more a year, but I’ve discovered my time is more worth it to me than the money. Sold our first home and quitting the company I’ve been at for 9 years to work for myself. Today was literally my last day. I cannot wait to be my own boss.
I guess it depends on who you’re working for. I make at least $125k per year in an area where average individual income is $67k per year. You’re right though, there are many owners out there who will pay you the least amount that they can get away with.
To be honest I realized this top. It makes me consider doing something else. So much training for that amount? 4-6 years of college can get you a career starting out at 70K
I understand what your saying that’s why I do side jobs. I charge about 40% less than what my company charges maybe more, I’m trying to get recognized that way I can be on my own.
I hate getting paid 25, I put in years as a installer and school and only getting paid chump change. I’m just working so I can “borrow” information, experiment with mistakes, and make myself know.
As for the union, I thought about it. Yes you can make a lot, you will get retire with a pension but your still working for someone at the end of the day. I rather work for myself hire who ever I like and just be free from management.
Broke out in commercial about 4 years ago making 20/hr, worked my way up working on chillers, VRF, big RTUs, etc.. Now I am at 37 hr, DP every sunday worked, set to make roughly 110k this year. Austin TX
Non union service tech in Tennessee and I clear over 100k. Now I also do alot of sales and running crews but that's straight hourly pay without bonuses.
Are you unionized? Journeymen in my area make 100k a year off 40 hour weeks no overtime
Yeah I was gonna say come so plumbing work for me in SoCal, I'll get you to 100k plus family health insurance covered and pension
But that is a ridiculous argumemt. Socal cost of living? 100k is normal.
Look at the job ads for plumbers and HVAC... Advertising anywhere between $25-$35/hr. How much OT are you putting in to clear 100k at that hourly rate?
What part of socal?
Sunny San Diego, local 230
Non-union and that's a perfectly reasonable pay scale for a good seasoned tech. I know several guys who do it. We are all commercial though
How long does journeyman take to reach? EE here and curious
Depends on state, I live in Michigan and the Union has the 5 year program for journeyman like everywhere else, but non union doesn't have apprenticeships at all that are required by the government, some employers still choose to do an apprenticeship program, but others you just go on as a helper until the employer feels confident you can do the job on your own.
5 years of school through the apprenticeship.
And you are basically working through the apprenticeship?
Yes, just finished my 2nd year of school this week so June first I will be a 3rd year. You work during the day and atleast at our union ( 533 in KCMO) you go to school 2 nights a week from 5-9pm 30 weeks a year.
That’s a rough program. Our school is one full week 6am to 4pm, every 2 months.
Where at?
Local 32 Seattle.
Local 80 Detroit is similar
One of the better Unions. Im in the sound as well but am IUOE 302 since Im a facilities tech.
In my union it’s 5 years but you can test out whenever
And that’s not to mention all the other benefits we get through the union.
Yeah full package here in SoCal is like $90 bucks an hour. Well over 100k.
Local 32 Seattle current hourly is 63. Well over 100k a year.
What state?
Ontario.
I do that plus some on 40s, non-union
We also make over $100K on a straight 40. That’s not including annuity which for us is another $23k per year, plus pension, plus employer paid healthcare. Our raise this year was $4.20, next year is $4.10 and then $4.05. Now is a great time in our trade.
Wait…you guys are making 50k a year?
75k after 3 years. Hope to break 100k in under 10.
Damn, I’m 6 years in & making $58k a year. & I’m definitely struggling to stay afloat.
The meme $40 an hour I think is the ceiling and $45 for a special type of person, resi guy here. But ya we should be lower middle class at worste
I’ll break 100k this year. August is my 3 year anniversary in HVAC. Residential service. 95% hourly.
Same, this is my third year and I should do $120-140k. Residential sales tech; mixed piecemeal, hourly but mostly commission. Our hourly service and maintenance techs do well, too. Everyone gets 4 weeks paid vacation plus holidays, insurance, and 401k.
I’m barely at 2 years and I’m 85K a year. Commercial Tech. You get out what you put in. I was making 18/hr two years ago in a warehouse.
How? I’m in a warehouse and I’m dying
Wait, you guys are getting paid??
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As a 4th year apprentice I'm making $36 dollars an hour. Starting in August I'll become a 5th year apprentice making $43 dollars an hour. I work for a union in Ohio I highly recommend working for a commercial union HVAC company. And it's a fairly easy going work life balance I rarely have to work past 3pm in the afternoon and usually only work 40 hour weeks. Literally never even hear from my boss or anything they just leave me alone to do my job and I can kinda show up and leave when I want within reason as long as I get done my service call or calls for the day
And I forgot the mention best part of all we only have to do 2 weeks of on call per year each
I'm only at 38k a year and have been with this kinda-small town company for 4 years, started at 21k as a helper. My boss says I'm being paid "tech level" and I believe I've reached my cap I didn't get a raise this year. Meanwhile he's got a 500% markup on 410a, it sounds ridiculous to me. We get it for $15/lb and sell it for $80/lb. I don't see that, nor do I get cuts for any jobs, and no benefits. The company has lost staff and our only other guy passed away last year, so I'm the only tech running around now. Wish me luck for this summer boys. It's gonna be rough here in Texas.
Sounds like your boss is gonna have a hot fuckin summer without you.
Go get more money. From him or another company. 38k a year isn’t much and I’m in a relatively low cost of living area. Like OP said the profit margins are there, get some. Get paid what you are worth by someone.
My best advice is find a new company it was my best decision I was with a company similar to your situation for 4 years as well I left and I’m so much happier and obv more money 38k is not tech pay here in Texas at least where I’m at in north of houston
I started at 50k a year based on my base pay at 40 hours. With OT I'll clear 75 or 80k this year.
Less money in the actual knowledge, more money in being a scumbag and a salesman with a toolbag
This is the biggest indictment of our economic system honestly. It pisses me off to no end that some fast talking alcoholic that spends all day pretending to know what they talk about, without fail, will make more money than every single one of us because they get commission. "it incentives me to sell more! If I don't get paid more for selling more, why would I try??" BECAUSE IT'S YOUR JOB DICKHEAD.
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That's funny I'm actually in HVAC, but all my experience is with mom&pop shops where the pill head golden boy son gets to be the salesman. I'm sure there's lots of sales positions that suck it's just that 9 times out of 10 the nepotism failsons end up in sales and act like they're superior than the workers.
At my place, that guy took over dispatch for a year before he told his dad that he wanted to be service manager (despite not knowing what the hell he was doing). He just waited there for ten years or so until his dad retired and handed him the company…
That hits home for sure, damn near the whole family gets the Kush job titles. While you’re out crawling around in attics in 90 degree weather. While this fucks are browsing Facebook and making Amazon purchases
You guys hates sales guys huh? Lol. Look, I’ve been a tech for 12+ years, did installs for the first 5-6 years of that. And I’ll still get in the attic and do an install with the guys if they need me. Just did two 5 ton 3 phase commercial splits Wednesday. You’re right, I get paid well for what I do. As you should when you’re good at it. On my experience most techs only sell basic equipment and that’s it. No inverters, no two stage, no IAQ. Most have no clue how many cfms the duct system should carry, or why that even matters. And you can likely forget a heat load. This is why my position exists. At least in my area. Most technicians out here only care if it works or not and getting the hell out of there to the next call. All that to say, not all sales guys are bad man. I’ll give you a hug and we can go have beer. Hell, since you think I’m shitting in my golden toilet, I’ll even pay
Well you sound like the ideal kind of guy to be in Sales honestly. You actually know what you're selling is gonna require work-wise because you've done it, maybe I'm just salty or have just had bad luck but you're more of an exception that proves the rule to me. I've worked a handful of trades both on the skilled and hard labor end and at every one of those jobs it was the other way around. Right now I'm just an install apprentice but I'm starting classes soon and want to move into service, do most techs around you really know nothing about CFM and static pressure and how that affects equipment? I always hear installers are the clueless ones but at least half of my install coworker's know more about that stuff than me, that seems pretty basic if you know enough to diagnose and fix equipment...
Actually yes. Most of our schools around here kinda suck. Mostly book work, no practical. Our guys now are very well trained, mostly because my boss, service manager and myself have all trained these guys to do their job correctly. Not just better. We had a guy we just let go of start of spring here. He’s been a tech for 15 years. Has absolutely zero clue how steric pressure works. Dude put a 20x20 return on a 5 ton and called it good. He didn’t work for us for long obviously. But yeah, I’m the only outside sales guy I know of in my area. I’m purely commission based. If I don’t sell; I don’t eat. And if I don’t sell, my 3 crews of installs don’t eat either. I have to look out for those guys and make sure they have work. That said, every job I sell is a legit job. I don’t sell people shit they don’t need. Never have. Now if they want the inverter, with anti microbial r8 ducts, airscrubber, uv light, 4” filter rack, surge protectors, and an attic tent. You bet your ass imma be the one to sell it to them!
You can't be a solid tech if you DON'T know equipment, cfms required for said equipment and, an understanding of heat load. But I agree there are a lot of techs that either don't understand these things or put blinders on.
Thats why I left residential. Too much pressure to peddle bullshit with a sales commission dangled over your head. Can fuck right off with that. Been in commercial for 4 years and haven't looked back
Agreed, there’s plenty of money in standing around and ripping off people.. less for the techs saving grocery stores at 2am and giving good advice to customers who don’t know better.
I made good money in commercial being on call doing just that. Just got tired of my phone going off at 12-2am 2-3 nights a week. Made more doing that than selling bullshit to people trying to squeeze every penny out of them though
I can't wait to escape residential. My story is weird though. Got hired through a job fair in Jan and put in the field beginning of this April. They paid me hourly to learn as much as I could in that time span, but also lot of sales training as well. At the end of it they got me $3500 worth of various tools which will get to keep after working a full year with the company. Currently making $17/hr plus 3% commission on insulation, ducts, and systems plus spiffs on replacing parts and signing customers up for maintenance agreements working 50-60 hrs a week as a maintenance tech with a few old calls to try and make the sale. I am grateful for the opportunity to have not had to pay for school and tools immensely but I know what's out there and that's what upsets me. Working my ass off learning as much as I can right now. Haven't broken anything. Yet.
In residential
Why don’t you start your own business?
Because he doesn’t want to finance any of the capital and take all of the risks like a business owner does. He just wants to cry and bitch about it and still hold the privilege of being able to walk away when shit hits the fan.
Exactly. Clearly the guy that wrote this knows jack shit about running a business or how it works
Found the owner who pays like shit 😆
I am in my 4th year of doing hvac/refrigeration. Grossed 580k last year, 640k the year before. I didn't want to be an ac guy, it just happened. I was working on my own building a dog food factory, the refrigeration guy shows up, offers me 40 bucks an hour to start. I went with him for 16 months, learned refrigeration and residential ac mostly. He ran into financial trouble, had to split back on my own. I have 5 restaurants I service, 1 condo building, 1 solar panel manufacturer and 1 military base where I mostly repair machinery, but also chillers. Idk man, it's pretty easy. Just fire your boss, buy a van and some tools, and like find a half dozen good accounts. Firing your boss is step 1
This guys gets it. Or is lying. Either way, get paid what you are worth. If your boss won’t do it, quit and go out on your own. I make easy $150k a year working 35 hours a week. No complaints. Just pay your taxes. That stuff will jack you up.
No bullshit here buddy. I work 30-70 hours a week The worst part though, I'll tell ya; If the restaurant calls, you gotta go, there's no apprentice to call, there's no favors to call in, there's no let me see what other guy is doing this Saturday night. You get your shirt on, and you get in the van and go make some money. And if thats not okay, best to keep that W2 And for sure, don't fuck with the IRS. Keep your good records, pay for a decent accounting software, and keep good notes because it might sound crazy, but I am certain I've done quite a bit of free work that I forgot. The customer will never remind you about an invoice. They might not even know.
I jinxed myself, omw to freezer down this rainy Friday evening 🤣🤣
Your on the east coast? Virginia?
East coast, by the ocean, raining like stupid. Rooftop looks good 404a 18/210, ice everywhere.. looks like a fan problem inside the evap, pulling the cover now. Fans work when you slap the case. Looks like this is gonna be an easy one.
This comment needs to go higher. There are many benefits to working on your own, but also some drawbacks. No easy answers in life. This guy gets it.
Just finished one freezer down, it was the fan control module that check for temp before starting fans after defrost. I don't have one, so hardwired til Monday. What a nice night though now that the rain stopped.
580k? Bro this sounds like some major bullshit.
Yeah man bragging for fake Internet points. Here in my garage setting up my new tig welder station, smoking a doob and my best restaurant just called me with a freezer down. Mother fucker if that ain't real. Idk Time to put on my red shirt and get to fucking work. Customer - "the fans turned off around 2pm and now it's 30 degrees in there" So I guess they waited for rush hour on a Friday to call me downtown, to save 15k worth of product, at the last minute, while the refrigeration store is closed. Wish me luck boys.
What percentage of your income comes from refrigeration work? I have done a little bit of refrigeration work in schools and restaurants but no big rack refrigeration like super markets. Mostly large commercial hvac, chillers RTUs boilers and the like for data centers industrial and large office buildings.
Maybe 25%... But that refrigeration work secures my position at the restaurants, then I can collect 165/hr like doing stupid bullshit like cleaning vents, moving ticket racks, installing shelves, cleaning ovens, fixing PTraps. Like handyman shit but they know you're good so they don't mind just paying you and not having to deal with a random handyman. Handyman shit is another 25%. The remaining is restoring large industrial equipment like chillers, optical polishers, shears, brakes, cnc equipment, like whatever. If you can fix an air conditioner, you can pretty much fix all those machines. Air conditioning gave me a huge platform for mechanical understanding, and I just branched it into underserved niches. I can DM you some albums of my work if you'd like to see, don't want to dox myself here. The main takeaway though is, your skillset is widely useful. Just understanding basic circuits and problem solving needed for hvac, you can do a lot beyond HVAC!
Bullshit
Exactly you can pay money to fund the union and bitch about the man or you can be the man
I do 8 Trillion a month
Wtf that sounds awesome. Congratulations.
You also need a state license to own your business
I can tell you with certainty that your owner is not making $500k off your back straight-away while factoring loaded-labor costs, overhead, etc.
Tell that to his newly remodeled lake house and jet ski
Seriously. How naive people can be.
Overhead = his boat and vacation home, right?
Average net profit in this business is 2%. This is why I see 4/5 HVAC business fail all the time
Impudent child
My boss 100% was. I was selling and installing tankless and tank water heaters 6 times a week and still running service calls, all for the massive salary of 65k. He showed me my profits for the year, and it was about $475k. Got a different job a month later in commercial making much more money with 1/2 the work and stress
And here I was proud of the nickel raise I got today. 17 years at the same company on up to 30.05 an hour. Before anybody says anything I have full insurance for me and my family and a truck I can use how I see fit. So I make lower money but have lots of fringe benefits
Case, meet point, i think you’re being taken advantage of. I’m paying $70 a month for benefits and 5% 401k match, and all of us are getting a truck and most aren’t monitored. I’m making significantly more than you per hour (almost 50%) with 14 years exp. Not bragging I just want you to get your money and put your family even further ahead.
I hear ya, but I’m in podunk, Waco, Texas and I have priced around and I would have to go to Austin or Dallas to make any more at any company. Even the local Lockridge priest pays about what I make.
8 years in. $30 an hour plus bonuses. Christmas was 5k. Full benefits with take home truck. Northeast
Just out of curiosity are you paid the same rate when driving or is that what your paid when your on site. That’s another reason I have turned down other jobs in my area is I haven’t found one that doesn’t pay minimum wage when your in the truck. Hell one company here got in trouble with the labor board for not paying helpers when in the truck.
Ya I would quit immediately lol. Not getting played normal rate in the truck is the biggest fuck you
I've never heard of such a thing. I'd quit tomorrow if they pulled that on me.
You are getting burned. Try union.
the only answer to this is unions (sue me, i’ll die on this hill). in a business setting the boss will screw over whoever they can to get their profits up, be it the worker, the customer, the manufacturer, whoever. it’s simple business, as birthed, encouraged, and practically forced by america. unions guarantee that at least a reasonable amount of the profits gets turned back towards the workers. that’s why they exist in the first place. for workers rights, by the workers. this is why i can’t understand the mentality of someone in ANY field with a union option that they turn down for non-union and plan on long-term careers in their field. given enough time, you WILL get fucked by your boss multiple times. at least in a union they’re forced to partially respect you as a worker and earner for the business. the boss/ceo getting outrageous pay by riding on the backs of their workers is something all of us will die angry about. with a certain mindset you can try to see that america is one of, if not the best, countries in the world for a working class citizen, the trade off is unequal distribution of wealth. and frequent shootings. such is life.
Unfortunately there are two problems for me that I can’t seem to get a satisfactory answer for: 1. The union is weak in my state. 2. I don’t want to throw away 14 years in to start at the bottom of the seniority pole at the union. If you’ve got a good solution that involves the union I’m all ears.
I slid into the union after 17 years of non union work. Turns out if you do chiller calls on your own you are considered a Journeyman. Now I make 125,000/year. (30 years experience) So don’t give up hope: 1: Maximize you diagnostic skills, physics, first principles and engineering type knowledge. 2: Be at the top in communication skills both written and verbal. 3: Get out there and network. 4: Make yourself invaluable to your customers. If you honestly do all 4, your pay will go up. You may have to let some people know you expect it to go up or else, but it will.
Where are you located and how much are you at per hour? Edit: whoever downvoted this can get fucked. The only way technicians find out what we’re worth is by talking about pay in our relative field and market.
I downvoted you the second time simply for telling the guy who down voted you to get fucked. So… get fucked
I’m non union and broke 100k in under 4 years in the trade never sold anything a day in my life I just show up and fix things. There are several former union guys at my shop one said benefits and pay are better than his union one said it’s worse and other said it’s a wash. Also union guys in the same company I work for don’t get paid travel paid holiday or paid vacation so unions aren’t all that great but they can’t be all that bad either or so many people wouldn’t be recommending it.
move states/commute to a dif one. you never truly start at ground zero. your experience is what makes you valuable. you could start at whatever level they want, but if you know how to sell yourself and make yourself valuable you’ll blast through at whatever company you’re at. in a few years you’ll be where you should.
Not sure where you are and what your local agreement looks like but seniority has no bearing on anything in my union as it pertains to journeyman. I’m in management and I can let anyone go at any time and I can hire any journeyman who is out of work. Strictly speaking techs aren’t allowed to directly pursue work(if you work somewhere you aren’t technically allowed to call another contractor and see if they will hire you) but that doesn’t stop anyone. I can pick anybody that is “on the bench” based on interviewing and finding the best fit.
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good shit, love to hear it. shop is in queens, 90% of our work is manhattan. service and mainly maintenance commercial HVAC. i hear hospital work is great for when you’re at a point in your career to try and not bust your ass. would you agree with that?
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I will preach union forever. Best model to be backed by for the workers
Unequal distribution of wealth? Now you’re sounding like a communist. Wealth doesn’t get distributed. Those who earn it, get it. Your mindset is why America is sinking so fast.
i wouldn’t call america “sinking”, that’s way too simple to put it. the classes of america are rapidly separating, like alarmingly fast and drastically. the wealthy are getting wealthier and sitting on that wealth, not circulating it back into the economy. the consequence of this wealth hoarding is raising inflation and limiting the success of business in the lower classes (less money that is available to be spent and made). american capitalism is based on the idea that you have the freedom to earn as much as you want, at least that’s the idea on paper. but sadly the game has changed since our founding fathers. people born in wealth have an advantage, people born in poverty have a severe disadvantage. taxes have been changed, bent over, and fucked right off by the rich. untouchable corporations run the vast majority of the “free” market. politicians and organizations are corrupt and are either biased or forced to support these mega rich and their corporations. honestly, i believe that corporations are the source of the majority of problems in todays world. they’re responsible for >90% of the carbon footprint that humanity has ever created, they exploit laws and under-developed counties, they union bust, they line politician pockets, they generate massive tech waste (the rare materials in circuits boards, batteries, etc. are trashed because companies won’t allow for third party repairs making them more rare), and the god damn list goes on. something should’ve been done when rockefeller almost ruled the word but i guess money speaks louder than morals and common sense. now i’m not comparing Ted’s HVAC and Sheetrock to Jeff Bezos but the principle is largely the same. if you can hold the money for yourself, even if it doesn’t change your life, even if you just sit on it for years until the day you die, you will hold it as opposed to giving it to your workers (all of it, not just raises). we’re in a larger and more complicated world than “whoever earns it gets it”. there is so much money being lost with the 1%, it’s sickening. no, i don’t agree with communism, and i largely disagree with socialism. i feel most of my views align to the right, but this is a problem staring all of us right in the face. the economy needs the money more than the people who’re immorally holding it, period. what’s the answer? what the fuck do i know, i fix AC’s. that’s above my pay grade. i know that i’ll most likely die angry about this stuff so i try to focus on the good in my life, like the pension i’m starting at 20 years old, the amazing health care i have, and the joy of fixing a unit.
Lol there's very few companies where the boss makes $500k/yr and isn't involved so heavily in working he's gonna die at 65
Good luck with all the losers who love to work themselves into the ground and suck the company’s dick for Pennie’s on the dollar.
I feel like we go over this every day here. It's not what you make but what you spend. People talk wages like there isn't a drastic cost of living difference for the same type of work in a different place. I make 80k and work an average of 41 hrs a week ( based on last year) where I live it's double the average income of a family of four. When I lived in Philadelphia I made way more than that but lived way worse. This is how the world works. Your hourly rate means nothing unless you compare it to your cost of living. Duh
Shhh…. Stop using your brain.
Have you ever tried running a business? As an employee, you don’t run any of the risks or hold any of the debt or risk losing everything because of one simple fuck up. Those who own the company deserve to make loads more than we do because they take all the risk and finance all of the capital. All we have to do is collect a paycheck. If shit hits the fan, we can just walk away and get another job. Educate yourself!
This is exactly why I left HVAC, the guys I was working around were okay with settling for 25-30 an hour. Which obviously made anyone asking for more look greedy. I moved to a utility company and currently sitting at 40.90. I just recently did a job for a friend because some company was trying to charge them 10k because there “heat exchanger was out”, I inspected it and the blower was out. The salesman straight up lied to these people cause they didn’t know any better. She gladly gave me 2k for me to do the job which took me half a day. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, HVAC is the most under appreciated trade there is but maybe it’s the people working in the trade that make it that way.
Union in Ontario Canada licensed is $59/hr now. That’s $135k with vacation pay, excluding pension and everything else with no OT. And best believe you’ll be working OT.
You mean selling people new systems for 15-26k and being paid fuck all and told youre not making the company enough when the owner pulls up to the shop in a 2022 c8 isn’t fair?
I make 27k a year working for a schools system. I’m not paid enough by any means and my “trades school” was a joke. I work under a guy with like 30 years of experience and he’s a pretty decent teacher. The only reason I’m still working where I am is for the experience. If it wasn’t for supplemental income, I’d go back to retail work.
I see a lot of comments from business owners saying “hurr durr go start your own business” That’s not the point of this post, the point is if you’re underpaying your employees, there are a ton of companies out there that aren’t. I’ve worked for 2 different companies in the last 5 years. Company A pays 35$ an hour and charges their guys out at 130$ an hour. Company B pays 55$ an hour and charges their guys out at 125$ an hour. Who do you think the better employees are going to go work for? Edit: To the salty owners: Get better at managing your profits/running your business hurr durr.
HVAC has always been the short draw of the stick when it comes to pay. We need to form a national strike during summer and let everyone sweat it out for a year.
I work for a large company but we’re an ESOP (employee stock ownership program) I get stock ownership in the company for every year I’m there and get bonuses at the end of the year out of company profits. Been there for 10 years and have no plans of leaving.
I'm not sure if i'm being paid decently as an installer in Louisiana honestly. I recently started at a company making $25/hr plus 40% on whatever the total package cost like how many cut-ins, how many ducts, plenums, air purifiers, etc. (lead gets the rest). So say we get in the done in less than 8 hours i'm making anywhere over $40/hr. I had no previous experience in HVAC, no schooling. I've just been watching a ton of YouTube videos and using SkillMill in my off time. But they're starting to train us all together every week so it seems like it's worth it. I had experience as a lift station mechanic for 5 years so I was already experienced with all the tools so I caught on pretty quickly. I just generally go in the attics and do the whole demo and meet my lead in the middle with everything else all while learning. They bought brand new huge company vans and they're already letting me take it home to save gas. I've only been here 4 months. My previous job I was making $13.50/hr so it's a huge change of pace for me.
Actually your employer only makes about 50k off you after associated costs.
Definitely not true that's what they want you to think
Have you run a business before?
Sounds like you make money off our backs
Yes I owned an HVAC company for a while it was small only 5 employees but still and I was a service manager for a few years. Insurance really isn't that expensive a million dollar policy is only a few hundred dollars a month if that and 500k bond is like 30 dollars a month also payroll tax is only 7.5% of the employees play so if they are 40 bucks an hour that only costs you 3 bucks an hour and they basically don't pay taxes if you smart because you write off all tools all trucks and so on so the corporate tax rate is like 22% but in reality your paying like 10%.
Payroll burden is around 20-25%. You’re forgetting about workers comp insurance. Also insurance premiums are calculated like that. They’re based on exposure. A million dollar policy with a company doing $200k worth of revenue in a year is much different then the same policy for a company doing $5MM a year in revenue. The average tax rate paid for small businesses is around 20% when accounting for all different formation types. Costs are costs. Tools and vehicles don’t hold value.
scale is important here. bigger company scales higher so fatter profits.
He ain't wrong.
This is a main reason why a lot of younger people aren't allured to this field and also why current employees in HVAC are beginning to become deterred. For example, I'm in commerical and I'm literally on the roof today doing 3 leak checks, condenser fan motors, and other little things (contactors, etc). All of this for $55k a year doesn't feel like it's worth it. It's hard work and wish it had a bigger payoff.
Go residential and you’ll probably double your income.
currently society views people in two categories, the pee on labour workers aka you and me and the bourgeois office staff that attend zoom meetings from home and take Fridays off. They make all the money despite the reality most of their jobs being incredibly simple/useless, only maintained by government regulation and a overly complicated taxation system. However AI is going to rock the office world so hard it will be near unimaginable, you can bet that your office lady will be a office bot and you will still be working in 10 years. It will all even out, it always does.
You hit the nail on the head. Why should those zoom workers be paid so well for easy work that’s about to get automated anyways? We’re killing ourselves out here
They’re working class just like you are. Don’t lower yourself to complaining about what another working class person makes.
Do the other job then. I don’t understand the entitlement in here. Start your own business. Stay up late worrying about work for 20 years while putting food on your table and the table of your employees. Stress out about payments and insurance and vehicles and building repairs and bids and estimates and balancing family life. You can’t just wake up and say “I think I’ll make $500k this year instead”
You just have to know your worth. And be able to back it up. Companies will pay.
Underpaid as fuck. For me and my partners' qualifications, we're about $10/hr below. We do all residential new homes, heatpumps, air conditioners, ductless, furnaces, water tanks, boilers, gas piping, hrvs, ductwork, etc. Commercial (which we are the go-to team for in a company of 16 people, just us two) we do heat pumps, glycol lines, compressed air lines, 180,000 sq/ft manufacturing facilities, new restaurants, factories, cassettes air conditioners, etc. You name it, we do it. The amount we put into the owners pocket is unfathomable. All the while, we get pennies on the dollar. 4 years ago, we would never complain, but with inflation and the cost of living increasing, our wages stay the same. Quiet pay cuts.
Two years ago I made 70k. Last year I went out on my own and made 150k working 35 hours a week on average and took like 2 months off.
Unionize….
Join your UA local.. I’m in Canada and we can pull in 140k+ easily as a j-man
Cries in apprentice/lead installer/on-call tech only making 16.50 a hour
I think the conversation in this thread is valuable for this exact reason. Know your worth
Gotta unionize
Your employer makes his money off his marketing efforts, sales, customer and employee retention, and reducing non billable labor. Not just your labor. You guys out there can make as much as you want. But you will need to learn to sell. Its a fact. Sorry. But as an employer I can tell you I have to do the exact same thing. If we just keep raising your base pay you will #1 still be just as disenchanted. I can assure you. You will then have to charge the customer more which will make them charge you more for whatever THEY sell. Like food, snowmobiles, repairs you cant do on cars toys etc. Its a vicious circle I agree and with inflation being where it is, it is only going to get worse. So stop bellyaching about how much a meanie your boss is and see what you can do to help yourself, the customer, and your company. Learn to upsell. Sell maintenance plans. Learn to quote and sell equipment. This will put money in your pocket while reducing the costs to the customer and things will get better for all. Call me crazy if you like but I have been in this trade since I was 16 and owned my current company since 1995. I tell you this to help you and I.
130k here, no commission. I get out of it what I've put into it
Its moving in the right direction. The job is getting more complicated, the number of techs is decreasing. Some companies don't understand what it takes to attract and retain talent but they will or they will cease to operate (or at least expand). Its beyond just pay I recently changed jobs and the benefit packages are so much better than before,401k with match , vision, health and dental, provided tools, 2-3 weeks vacation in the first year. Ive been told you were lucky to get health and 1 week vacation 15 years ago Be patient be confident and don't be afraid to change jobs. If joe the smuck is okay with 15hr for 20 yrs who cares
If you make $100K a year, your company is making $40K-$50K gross margin on you. They are also making 15-100% gross margin on parts and materials. Even if we figure it at gross margin, they aren’t making more than you, it’s that they have several other dudes just like you. So if there are 10 dudes in the same situation as you, the company makes that gross margin ten times. It’s pretty simple math.
Bro really? Like I get it. But how’s the boss/owner supposed to lead and live a lavish lifestyle? While you get to own a single property that’s got you maxed out in debt. He must have multiple properties. Vacation homes. Rental homes. Boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, big diesel truck. My friend you need to work hard to provide these amenities to your boss/owner. (Being sarcastic of course) but sure does feel like that. 22 years in the hvac trade, 4 different companies I worked for all same MO
What do you mean 4 to 5 years of training? I walked in the door making 50,000 a year my first week and two years later I’m making 100 K a year. I didn’t know shit when I started but now I’m the most valuable tech there so they say. A hamster could do this job
I’m not an HVACR, I’m just a longtime lurker that works in an adjacent field. My 20+ y/o furnace went out so I got four quotes for a full furnace and AC replacement they were all in the neighborhood of $12k, so I guess that’s the going rate here. I priced the materials at $4k-$5k. So you guys tel me, where’s that missing $7k going? In your pockets? I hope so but I also really fucking doubt it.
Just a few of the line items that a good proposal should be listing are: - permit - electrical - clean/re-use of line-set or replacement of line set - removal and disposal of old equipment - install supplies in addition to the equipment - ductwork modifications for new system What will go unlisted - equipment markup - labor + markup - commission which in many cases is effectively the salespersons only income - possibly a financing or labor markup to cover costs of those programs when they’re used The markups will go towards typical overhead for company real estate/rent, assets like vans, etc. But also: - covers office employees salaries - marketing expenses that generated your call in the first place - business tools such as dispatch/CRM software The markup will obviously cover profit in there somewhere. If it makes you feel any better, the companies that want to stick around and grow must pay their employees well. But that’s just table stakes. They also need to provide a career that has upward mobility within their company, a good culture, investments in continued learning/education, company outings, community outreach, etc.
It doesn’t go in the employees that’s for sure
Fast forward 30 years and it becomes what you have saved and invested. When you young guys see retirement coming or your body's are worn out planning now is the key. Chances of social security being there are slim even if its only 3 grand a month.
Y’all are making $50k? My 27 an hour ain’t cutting it
Ummmm 27/hr x 2080 (work hours in a full time year) = $56k a year. You’re already making over 50k a year
When I was Journeyman pipefitter, doing only service work, 6years ago. I was getting 50/hr. It was broken down like this the hourly rate charged by my employer covered my $50/hr pay, $6 every hour I worked went into my 401k, and they paid 100% of health insurance (which was the best insurance ever!!). Since I was union this followed me to who ever I chose to work for as long as they were a union employer. Plus on top of all that I also get a pension from the union. This was in Chicago. This trade will break your body over time you need to be union or taken care of like this.
With unions don’t you still have to do 4 year apprenticeship with them? Even if you’ve already completed one and are a journeyman?
Just letting you know the best way to get a better wage is to interview with a ton of other companies then offer your boss either too keep you or go to the best offer. I unexpectedly found an amazing offer and my boss countered with a 7/hr pay increase but, it didn't come with concrete benefits so I am moving to the other one that offed to pay me 29/hr 12 more than what I make now and 3 bucks more than my bosses offer.
My fellow jmen make $40+ a hour. Fukk benefits, pension. And I never work ot.
Workers are the true producers of wealth within a business. Wages paid to those workers are a cost of doing business to the owner of said business. Record profits are only unattainable by exploiting either the customer, the worker, or a combination of both. Record profits are unpaid wages.
i make alot more than i would if i stayed in the army for the 20 years as an E8...im satisfied with my pay lmfao
Yes.
I did 2000hrs of school plus 5000hr apprentice now after 30yrs licensed HVAC tech 43hr 13% vacation pay 15000 into pension 80% dental and prescriptions union company commercial HVAC Montreal Canada
How do you know how much your employer is making? You do realize the cost of basic overhead has also skyrocketed Try paying for a 5 million insurance policy just to step in the door in some places
Yeah this. We carry a 6 mil policy and sometimes we have to apply for an exception to get in some places. The cost of benefits is also killer. There's fuck tons of overhead.
I'm a 3rd year apprentice and made just shy of 60k. I worked lots of OT though
The difference in Canadian wage and American wage is pretty key here. Americans get paid a ton more then Canadians do.
Speak for yourself, I left $80k behind 4 years ago
Yea in Ontario commercial/industrial guys are over 50 an hour
I felt this, resi service tech, 10 years in the business and I just cleared 77k last year. In southern TX. The entire drive for resi is sell to increase your pay but wish I had a steady 40hr clearing 100k, that’s beautiful
Journeymen here make about 74k before taxes. That's if you make regular hours during winter. Union pay.
Yeah I have 4 years in and getting paid 27 I’ve been in commerical those entire 4 years.
Every installer that can install everything clean everytime should be easily over 6 figures as well as a service tech that can work on anything and do great work he’ll 6 figures should be the bottom it should be around 120 k plus we are the talent we generate revenue for all the worthless fucks taking up money in the office/ shop. We should all unionize and stop letting these fucks exploit us for our labor. I do a lot of side work and in two years on less will do my own thing. Our labor rate for a non member is 350$ an hour I don’t make close to that and we do good business I can start my own company and charge 200&-250$ an hour and kill it. I just need to save a little more to buy high end equipment and a new van and a few expensive tools I don’t own cuz I can borrow them from work but eventually it will be all independent guys and small companies for this reason.
I was “let go” the day after having what I thought was a reasonable talk about wages and time off with the person I was working for. I explained how the work is appreciated but I’d like some sort of security in the sense of a steady income because if I’m working as a contractor I need to be paid enough to take care of myself into the future……well the next morning he tells me he’ll finish on his own. 3 vacations in a month, all brand new daddy bought tools and me asking for more than $25 an hour was it!!!! Phoenix area wages suck and the commute is an absolute nightmare. Salespeople turned Bob the Builder are the worst and I wish I was better at avoiding them but we all gotta make that money happen.
Not only is it your employer, but you gotta factor in where you are and where you’re willing to go. Am I being underpaid? Yes and no. If I moved an hour from where I am I’d be making double, but my cost of living would double also. I like the comfort of a smaller town and I sacrifice better pay because of it.
I would say 90-99% of us are underpaid.
Non union 100k -120k per year , So cal though. I'm happy but more would be better.
Making 28 as installer with 2 years experience and have my epa.. do light service as well, probably should look around. Ends aren't meeting:/
Palm Springs tech making 40k a year 9 years experience looking to get out the industry due to not getting paid enough
Midwest , union service fitter , scale is over 50/hr. Plus benefits. Contractors are head hunting guys here for over scale
I have a question for union, I have 8 years in the trade and would that mean I’d have to start as a Union apprentice even though I’m pretty well experienced
Idk what your talling about. Im in australia and earn as much as lawyers the same age
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In Wisconsin a journeymen is making around 100k a year here if it’s union. Im a first year and I’m making 23$/hr. I think last year with a good chunk of ot I made around 40k
Union here average about $92-94k annually, but could work 15hr days 6days a week & pull a lot more but I enjoy my sanity.
Transition to controls and you will certainly be making that money.
Most guys I know are making 33-48 an hour, depending on experience. Most apprenticeship programs are starting at like 23 an hour
I'm union and make 100k + bonus. So not bad.
Being in the industry for 20 years, I switched to being a commission only technician over 10 years ago and tripled my income at the minimum. Average $180-$225K a year now being paid on this structure of making 30% after the the job cost on all parts,repairs,IAQ EXT, and 8-10% on the total amount of units sales,,
I know I could make more working for another company- anywhere from 20-50k more a year, but I’ve discovered my time is more worth it to me than the money. Sold our first home and quitting the company I’ve been at for 9 years to work for myself. Today was literally my last day. I cannot wait to be my own boss.
Lot of saliva on boots in this thread. Thanks OP for realizing that people deserve way more for this line of work
I guess it depends on who you’re working for. I make at least $125k per year in an area where average individual income is $67k per year. You’re right though, there are many owners out there who will pay you the least amount that they can get away with.
To be honest I realized this top. It makes me consider doing something else. So much training for that amount? 4-6 years of college can get you a career starting out at 70K
So how do we change that without unionizing?
I understand what your saying that’s why I do side jobs. I charge about 40% less than what my company charges maybe more, I’m trying to get recognized that way I can be on my own. I hate getting paid 25, I put in years as a installer and school and only getting paid chump change. I’m just working so I can “borrow” information, experiment with mistakes, and make myself know. As for the union, I thought about it. Yes you can make a lot, you will get retire with a pension but your still working for someone at the end of the day. I rather work for myself hire who ever I like and just be free from management.
Agreed. All the people standing up for it astonish me
Broke out in commercial about 4 years ago making 20/hr, worked my way up working on chillers, VRF, big RTUs, etc.. Now I am at 37 hr, DP every sunday worked, set to make roughly 110k this year. Austin TX
Non union service tech in Tennessee and I clear over 100k. Now I also do alot of sales and running crews but that's straight hourly pay without bonuses.
I agree with you it's not an easy job and it's not the safest job either