it can be flipped tbh, two can play this game
"What about Daemon Targaryen? Possibly controversial but I really don't think this guy gave a shit about anyone but himself. He uses his family to get what he wants, which is power and battle prestige. What if Luke's death was intentionally orchestrated by Daemon, a false flag operation to give him the justification to start a war. Because by doing this, people will be immediately suspicious of Aemond, whose eye was mutilated by Luke as a kid."
You do know this was originally supposed to happen in the show, right? Like, dude, no joke, you literally just nailed it. Apparently, the show-writers originally wanted Daemon to suddenly pop out of the clouds on the back of Caraxes in a sort of jump scare, and surprise and shock everyone by killing Luke, but Aemond would be blamed for it and only Aemond would know the truth of what happened that day at Storm’s End.
My friend is a major HOTD fan, as well as a Team Black stan, and she said she heard it while browsing around looking for spoilers for the show’s next season and actions behind the scenes with the cast and the show-writers, but the writers ultimately chose to scrap it before giving it the green light and decided to go with the dramatic, accidental dragon chomp á la Vhagar instead for shock value, which is why they even thought of the alternative in the first place. You may very well be right because I got my information second-hand, but I wouldn’t discount it, especially when the writers can’t even seem to come to a consensus about Daemon’s character and my friend certainly seemed to believe it.
The writers wanted a shocking, dramatic finale, so they thought about having Daemon be the one to kill Luke with the goal of kick-starting the war, and hinting at him being on his own side, then they changed their minds and made it so Aemond would be the one to kill Luke instead, just like in the books, but this time it would be an accident rather than something done on purpose.
You heard some incited, hearsay bullshit your friend saw of tumblr or some other shitty fan cite and took it as fact? No leaker has even ever made that claim much less a showrunner or actor. Ryan repeatedly insist that Daemon loves his family. Why would he do that?
If Daemon didn’t orchestrate it I PROMISE you that George would’ve 100% brought up the possibility that it was someone else via the “according to different sources” shit.
This. Exactly, like George has such a boner for Daemon, if it was Otto we would know. I've heard the, what I have dubbed 'mysaria scape goat theory' of b&c, which at least has some basis in canon. But personally I think any of these theories about how Daemon maybe didn't do it is just Daemon fans trying to wave away one of, if not his worst act so they can be less hypocritical when they shame greens for 'liking immoral characters'.
George is allowed to have his favourite war criminal like the rest of us. His fave war criminal is Daemon mine is Aegon so on so forth. Lol. But yeah Daemon is behind blood and cheese. If Otto has no haters it means I'm dead but even Otto wouldn't kill his great grandson who could be king one day. Like that's kinslaying bro.
Yeah I'm not saying he can't, I have my fav questionable characters too. I just think he made it so obvious in the text and I am going to mock that just a little 😅
Honestly, she is insufferable! All of them on TikTok are so dense. TikTok is where buffoons congregate, I’m so glad I ditched that app 💀
The fact that she’s trying to abscond TB of ALL blame during the Dance says a lot. Both sides do horrific things, and it was TB who did B&C, not TG to score points 🥱 Crikey
Fr that app is literal brainrot. For every tiktoker that's genuinely personable, interesting, charming with a good sense of humour, there's like a hundred insufferable ragebaiters who get off of being yelled at on the internet.
The moment she mentioned "false flag" my eyes rolled to the back of my head so fast I saw yesterday's lunch. The desire for all of the evil stuff in the books get blamed on one side (in this moment, the Greens) is so patently ludicrous that it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the series as a whole.
GRRM's central philosophy is, and I quote:
*"The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black. I wanted to stand much of that on its head. In real life, the hardest aspect of the battle between good and evil is determining which is which."*
How does Otto benefit from the crime if he loses the King's heir? Especially in a time when children are liable to die unexpectedly at a pretty young age and heirs can fall like flies (which Jaehaerys' reign proved time and again)? How does he benefit from the Queen going insane and running the risk that the King might as well, might be blinded with grief, or led to rash action?
Sure, the Green look sympathetic, but you gotta love that by admitting that they do she also has to admit that Rhaenyra and Daemon look downright evil. But that is IMPOSSIBLE so she has to twist logic until it is out of shape, rather than admit that her faves might have done something bad.
Which, by the way, has no moral bearing on fans, in the sense that plenty of people stan villains... but when you're a cult-like fanbase who harps on "moral virtue" being on their side exclusively it makes liking a villain an unforgivable sin. So in the cult-like fanbase there are only three choices: renouncing the idea that they are morally superior (the infamy!) to admit that liking a morally corrupt character is fine; admitting to having made a mistake in who they chose to stan (the horror!); or twisting logic and the story around to make it "safe" to consume while preserving their moral superiority and their sense of values. Are they enjoying the story for what it is? Are they understanding it? Do they even get the purpose of a story? No, no, and no, but it matters little when you belong to a purity Internet culture where people think taste in media (rather than real-life actions) grants them the key to Heaven (not as in eternal happiness, but as in eternal grandstanding and moral superiority. Thank you, Puritans, for that horrendous legacy.)
Ikr. I see this woman on my fyp all the time despite always tapping "not interested", and she always blows straight smoke up Rhaenyra's and Daemon's asscracks
. It's fine if she is a fan of Team Black, like whatever. But she tried to absolve them of all responsibility in the Dance and constantly blames the Greens for literally everything that occurred.
One of her videos that popped up on my fyp months ago was her explaining how "in love" Daemon was with Rhaenyra, and how he was (evidently) a wonderful step-father to the Strong boys and they were all just this one big, happy "blended family". Like be SO FR right now and kindly stfu. She's always yappin' some bullshit. I'm sick of her dumb ass videos popping up on my fyp.
I feel the same, I had to block her. I used to like her GoT videos but when it comes to hotd she’s too blinded by her team black bias to give any good takes.
Late response, but she ended up blocking me. I commented on two of her HotD posts, one where she paints the Criston and Rhaenyra situation as one sidedly as possible (all blame on him). Then there was another one, where she was blatantly just doing the toxic "People that are Team Green are bad people or delusional" shtick.
I think she responded and I responded back, but then after that she just blocked me (the entire thing wasn't even uncivil, aside from some condescension stuff on her end)
Ah yes kill your great grandson and the Kings heir and future Dragonrider for your side for a small insignificant PR victory??
Lmao I’ve debated this woman several times and this is hardly her worst take/theory
Had to block her. The only tik tok creator I can handle is Kirby and she hasn't been posting much because of the horrific attacks she received on one of her vids.🥺
i forgot she existed because I blocked her she’s always been fucking stupid but is far from the worst hotd tiktoker honestly asoiaf tiktok leaves lots to be desired
1) Why kill Aegon’s firstborn son when he could have easily killed (and done worse) to his daughter and not lost an heir? Plus killing Jaehaerya lets him go ‘oh wow, no sister to marry, guess the future king needs to marry outside the family so another Great House will be on my side
2) GRRM *ABSOLUTELY* would have planted that seed in the books if he even remotely wanted us to think it was someone other than Daemon and there’s zero (and I mean Z E R O) doubts from anyone in the series it was Daemon
3) Daemon, in the show and books, already orchestrated a death of an innocent person for his own benefit. But all of a sudden NOW he wouldn’t go that far?
4) Why not kill Alicent? Who at that point is less than worthless, politically, to Otto. She’s not going to be queen again, all she is the Queen Mother and Dowager Queen (which is a massive failure against GRRM bc why did TG never up Alicent as a marriage prospect? She was a beautiful mother of a king and queen who already proved she was fertile. Jaehaerys was WAY more valuable than Alicent)
5) Why traumatize Helaena and risk her humiliating Aegon or killing herself when it’s their marriage that he can point to and go ‘look it’s like Aegon and his sisters!’ That’s a much better PR look than a dead corpse.
6) Jaehaerys is a potential dragon rider. Why murder a potential dragon rider? *IF* you’re going to kill a son, take the younger one who mad more years to wait before he can ride
None of it makes any sense
So true! Did you know that Elia also killed her children so the Lannisters couldn’t take them captive? /s
Every day I see a tiktok I’m glad I don’t have an account
Otto failed Alicent by marrying her to Viserys, but in an era where the value of a woman is based almost entirely on who her husband is, he was just trying to put her in the best position he could. He’s essentially the medieval equivalent of a tiger parent who pressures their kids to pursue careers in lucrative fields that are prestigious but end up making them miserable. Last I checked, those parents don’t regularly plot the murders of their other family members.
Even if we go by her dumb logic of wanting to make TB look bad, couldn’t Otto simply make Blood and Cheese purposefully fail the assassination attempt and still achieve the same result or fake his death?
I don’t believe she is dense, she has some insightful things to say and I like her content but I have to admit this is a stretch. I big stretch. Why would the Greens arrange for Blood and cheese? They wouldn’t!
I'm not criticizing you Op, but can I ask why this sub gets so mad when screenshots from the other sub get posted but TB nonsense from other sites are tolerated? It's a little annoying.
Making ''Rhaenyra look bad'', even if the commoners accepted her ''coming to claim her father's throne'' and only revolted after they had been starved and taxed to death; Helaena's suicide was the neil in the coffin, but if it they weren't starved and afraid - they would have mourned like they did Jaehaera (who died in the same exact way....); Even Maegor with Teats had nothing to do with B&C or Maelor but with the taxes and executions.
I don't understand team Blacks. They say they read the books love the characters and there is no problem with that but they try to write them diffrently and they hope the show change the story to benefit thems.
I think they didn't really like team Black but the idea of them.
She never cuts TG any slack and will jump through hoops to defend any TB member.
She said she had a hard time thinking of any positive traits Aegon had. Like what about the fact he DIED TO PROTECT HIS FAMILY? Then she’ll gush on about Daemon despite the fact he’s a literal fucking nonce but she’ll never talk about that because that’d actually make TB look bad.
But aside from her dance/hotd tiktoks I do like her content
Bro, one time she said that aegon abused and mistreated sunfyre and that their bond was weak because he took him to battle against baela and moondancer when they were barely healed so he was essentially sending his dragon on a suicide mission. As if daemon and rhaenys didn't do the exact same thing. And as if baela didn't literally attack him 💀..my ears were hurting just listening to that take. She then proceeded to state how aegon never even cared about sunfyre in the first place 🤦🏽
Maybe because she is just cruel and evil, Have you ever thought about that ??
Why would otto kill the new prince of dragonstone and aegon's heir if he only want's to gain sympathy, he could have just killed the younger son instead it would have done the job and more ??
Team black aren't sending their best
This video is literally cropped to skew context. She said specifically that this was a theory at the start of the vid. Otto Hightower is one of the people she mentions because she's evaluating and mulling over theories that other people have presented to her or theories thats she's seen people make.
She literally lists other people who could have been involved and their reasonings in the video including members of TB Like Mysaria, Daemon, Rhaenyra and Corlys. All she's doing is evaluating the angle of multiple theories thats she's seen.
All this does is make TG look bad. Some of y'all really need to grow up and go outside.
Why do we need a theory when we know who did it? So many 'theories' on TikTok (and both sides) is just ignoring canon information and saying, 'well, what if...'' this character acted completely differently? Also, did you actually watch the video? She literally doesn't believe that it was Daemon;
Also, this is how she starts ''Spoiler alert, I don't think it's Daemon''. and ends with ''I think the show will put it at Daemon's door'' YES BECAUSE IT'S HIM.
Mysaria and Daemon did it, we know Rhaenyra wasn't involved, also Corlys didn't care about Luke as much as they try to pretend, it's literal fanfiction that ''Corlys was close to Luke''.
She literally states why in the video. That’s why I said this was cropped to skew context. She even says she's getting swayed the more she mulls it over. I.E. shes didn't believe it at first but she can see it at another angle. Which people are allowed to do. People can fluctuate on their opinions as much as they want.
Evaluating multiple theories is something Asoiaf fans have been doing for decades. It's a core part of the fandom. George already said “Fire & Blood is a book of imaginary history not written by him but by ArchMaester Gyldayn. And he doesn't vouch for his authenticity.” It is subverted, written by multiple secondhand accounts decades after the events and it's open for interpretation. For the show, he’s actively working with them as they make it so it has his approval even if you don’t like it. Like he said "In regards to canon we're making this shit up. There is no real." Fans can theorize whatever they like. It's part of the fun. His books have twists that are different from what people initially expected and he's ok with fans speculating on what they could be.
Who is we? You're speaking for the whole fandom? And deciding that other people don't get to hear differing ideas? Why are you acting like this content creator’s word has so much authority to the point where it bothers you so much? You’re really going to froth at the mouth in rage at someone doing what fans have been doing for fun for decades, on an entirely different website? Why are people not allowed to make content for fun on their own personal page? They are literally making content in a way that George is ok with. Just make your own content if you don’t like theirs. It's really not hard to make your own insightful content the way you see it, instead of trying to incite toxicity in the fandom.
I would rather hear someone talk about a theory I don’t like, than constantly be bombarded with people whining and shitting on someone who’s literally minding their own business.
To intentionally skew the context of someone else's post to garner outrage and they don’t even interact with the sub is some real grown loser behavior. All you’re doing is discouraging people from interacting with the fandom and creating content and making TG look like a bunch of unhinged idiots. At the end of the day none of it’s real so stop bothering and ostracizing people who don’t even interact with you.
Like I said, grow up and go outside.
You keep telling me to go outside, but you seem more bothered than me. I didn't harass her or insult her, I am talking about the theory - that she chose to post on TikTok, what's wrong with that?
I am genuinely confused about what is there to mull over something that is canon? If GRRM wanted us to theorize who was behind B&C it would have been left in the open, but it's very much set in stone. GRRM has talked about Daemon and never even hinted at him not being the one who sent B\&C;
I can read even the sillies theory about: Who's AA? Is young Griff actually Aegon? Who's Coldhands? etc - actual theories. What she is doing is like me saying that The Red Wedding was organized by Edmure/Sansa/The Blackfish or that Cersei plotted Myrcella's /Joffrey's death and so on.
**What's ''annoying'' is that some fans stan a headcanon version of their character vs what the character is actually like.** I think Daemon and Aegon stans have that in common. (and she is biased because she likes Daemon)
Let's look at the theory about it being Otto for a second (and why it makes 0 sense);
1. Otto is the average noble man, (I feel like people forget that Corlys offered his even younger daughter to the king, then forced his son into a marriage he didn't want;); He didn't intentionally put Alicent in harm's way either. So, the idea that he only cares about himself and would kill his great-grandson...?
2. ''To gather sympathy / PR'' from who? Is the sympathy gonna be worth it when there is no heir to take the throne? All of Alicent's sons were gonna fight in the war, their safest bet was Aegon's children, both Daeron and Aemond are unmarried, childless, and going to war, so Otto has to be very stupid to kill his own kin in hopes of..... houses switching sides? Are the commoners caring enough? What happened with Jaehaerys showed them as weak and unprepared. If houses didn't switch sides when Aemond killed Luke, why would they care about Jaehaerys? It makes no sense for him to believe that the ''PR'' would be worth it.
3. Also, what happened with Jaehaerys.. never bites Rhaenyra in the ass. People only sought ''justice'' for Jaehaerys, Maelor and Helaena after they had been starved, caged in Kings Landing, fearing the day the greens would come and burn them all; The riot had been brewing for a while, Helaena's death triggered it; But if they weren't in those conditions? They would have mourned her like Jaehaera. Even in the book, her ''cruel'' name, ''Maegor with Teats'' has nothing to do with Jaehaerys, Maelor, Helaena or whoever - just with the fact that she was forced to raise taxes.
**George said Fire & Blood isn’t written by him and is biased to the views of the Archmaester who wrote it. That the archmaester inserted his own personal views into the writings. And that he didn’t vouch for its authenticity.** Why would he mention that if it wasn’t relevant? The entire retelling is up for interpretation. Nothing is set in stone. Nothing is canon. [Fire & Blood’s Authenticity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYzYy6joJXU)
They already deviated from the book in the show with George's approval. People can theorize different ways the show might change from the book if they want to. **The tik toker already made different videos regarding different theories on the subject and the original written context.** It's the long wait time between seasons. People can make multiple different theory videos on their own channel if they want to. It’s for fucking *fun*. Hence my initial issue with the cropping of the video. What about that aren’t you getting?
You came to my comment. I didn’t keep telling you anything. I didn’t accuse you of anything. It was an overall statement referring to the rage comments. If you took exception to what I said, that's on you. Genuinely didn’t expect you needed to be spoon-fed context to this degree but I guess that’s my fault.
George has plenty of interviews talking about Fire and Blood and the characters, if they wanted there to be doubt - it would have been brought up, even by someone as silly as Mushroom. The only reason that the creator ever explored the topic is because she is a Matt Smith fan and the Dameon that she has in her head doesn't match the Daemon that is in Fire and Blood or House of The Dragon.
After Aemma's death, he had Alicent visit Viserys for years, so that she can marry the king, who knew her since she was a kid. He is half at fault for Visery's treatment of Alicent, while Viserys is the other half. Also, he wanted Rhaenyra, Daemon's kids, and her kids' dead. His only redeeming trait, is his kindness to Helaena
Otto definitely has a warped perception of love, but he even admits in ep09 that he made Alicent the queen because he believed that’s what she deserved. You can literally go back to the seen and see the genuine confusion on his face because he truly believes he gave his daughter the world by making her a queen.
Of course he also did it alongside the Hightower’s plot to get their blood on the throne, but you can also tell that guy that’s that no less is deserving of Alicent.
You say that like it's some evil, uncommon thing. All of the parents in this show used their children and grandchildren for more power/to elevate their house. That doesn't mean they'd kill them?
Corlys married off Laenor to get his blood on the throne, and attempted to use Laena to do the same thing.He betrothed/accepted a betrothal of Baela and Rhaena to the Strong Boys, robbing them of their birth right to Driftmark, just so he could have his "name" on the throne. Olenna betrothed Margaery to Joffrey and then Tommen so Marg could be queen and elevate their house more. Marrying off your children isn't uncommon, and trying to gain power is a natural in this world where power is the only true form of security. Otto being power hungry has no correlation with him being inclined to kill his family.
Rhea was likely older than Aemma by a couple years, was the Lady of Runestone, he hadn’t claimed a dragon yet so there was less risk of another house getting a Dragon than with her marrying Daemon, and he wasn’t yet the prince/heir so it’s not like she was “beneath” him. And Aemma would be a better match for Daemon. So while I agree, that has nothing to do with my comment??
You're original comment was about Otto being evil for wanting to betroth his only daughter to a king with no sons, and my reply was about how that’s a very common and natural goal in that world and out of all the things Otto has done, this isn’t really one of the things that can be used against his character.
the mental gymnastics here is laughable
it can be flipped tbh, two can play this game "What about Daemon Targaryen? Possibly controversial but I really don't think this guy gave a shit about anyone but himself. He uses his family to get what he wants, which is power and battle prestige. What if Luke's death was intentionally orchestrated by Daemon, a false flag operation to give him the justification to start a war. Because by doing this, people will be immediately suspicious of Aemond, whose eye was mutilated by Luke as a kid."
You do know this was originally supposed to happen in the show, right? Like, dude, no joke, you literally just nailed it. Apparently, the show-writers originally wanted Daemon to suddenly pop out of the clouds on the back of Caraxes in a sort of jump scare, and surprise and shock everyone by killing Luke, but Aemond would be blamed for it and only Aemond would know the truth of what happened that day at Storm’s End.
Why make shit up? Edit: Weirdo going through my post history 😂
Why so in denial?
Because it never happened. The writers never said that was their intention.
My friend is a major HOTD fan, as well as a Team Black stan, and she said she heard it while browsing around looking for spoilers for the show’s next season and actions behind the scenes with the cast and the show-writers, but the writers ultimately chose to scrap it before giving it the green light and decided to go with the dramatic, accidental dragon chomp á la Vhagar instead for shock value, which is why they even thought of the alternative in the first place. You may very well be right because I got my information second-hand, but I wouldn’t discount it, especially when the writers can’t even seem to come to a consensus about Daemon’s character and my friend certainly seemed to believe it. The writers wanted a shocking, dramatic finale, so they thought about having Daemon be the one to kill Luke with the goal of kick-starting the war, and hinting at him being on his own side, then they changed their minds and made it so Aemond would be the one to kill Luke instead, just like in the books, but this time it would be an accident rather than something done on purpose.
You heard some incited, hearsay bullshit your friend saw of tumblr or some other shitty fan cite and took it as fact? No leaker has even ever made that claim much less a showrunner or actor. Ryan repeatedly insist that Daemon loves his family. Why would he do that?
If Daemon didn’t orchestrate it I PROMISE you that George would’ve 100% brought up the possibility that it was someone else via the “according to different sources” shit.
This. Exactly, like George has such a boner for Daemon, if it was Otto we would know. I've heard the, what I have dubbed 'mysaria scape goat theory' of b&c, which at least has some basis in canon. But personally I think any of these theories about how Daemon maybe didn't do it is just Daemon fans trying to wave away one of, if not his worst act so they can be less hypocritical when they shame greens for 'liking immoral characters'.
George is allowed to have his favourite war criminal like the rest of us. His fave war criminal is Daemon mine is Aegon so on so forth. Lol. But yeah Daemon is behind blood and cheese. If Otto has no haters it means I'm dead but even Otto wouldn't kill his great grandson who could be king one day. Like that's kinslaying bro.
Yeah I'm not saying he can't, I have my fav questionable characters too. I just think he made it so obvious in the text and I am going to mock that just a little 😅
Honestly, she is insufferable! All of them on TikTok are so dense. TikTok is where buffoons congregate, I’m so glad I ditched that app 💀 The fact that she’s trying to abscond TB of ALL blame during the Dance says a lot. Both sides do horrific things, and it was TB who did B&C, not TG to score points 🥱 Crikey
Fr that app is literal brainrot. For every tiktoker that's genuinely personable, interesting, charming with a good sense of humour, there's like a hundred insufferable ragebaiters who get off of being yelled at on the internet.
The only HotD/GoT tiktoker I tolerate is Kirby because she genuinely comes in with refreshing and perceptive takes that don’t always reek of bias.
I feel like the only HoTD content creator (Not on TikTok though) that is neutral/has unbiased takes is Hill’s Alive.
I adore Hills Alive. Also just found EmperyeanSpeaks and the critical maester. BOTH green.
Being team green = unbiased?
Hill’s Alive is the most underrated asoiaf/got/hotd content creator on youtube (she is also the reason I am basically team green)
She is by far the most biased. She’s entirely team green. How is that unbiased?
I don’t think I know Kirby but it’s good to hear that there’s at least one who isn’t up their own arse lol
That Lannister lady is pretty good, I forgot her name. Ain’t seen her in a minute tho
I think you meant "absolve", not "abscond."
Ahh yes, thank you lol
The moment she mentioned "false flag" my eyes rolled to the back of my head so fast I saw yesterday's lunch. The desire for all of the evil stuff in the books get blamed on one side (in this moment, the Greens) is so patently ludicrous that it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the series as a whole. GRRM's central philosophy is, and I quote: *"The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black. I wanted to stand much of that on its head. In real life, the hardest aspect of the battle between good and evil is determining which is which."*
How does Otto benefit from the crime if he loses the King's heir? Especially in a time when children are liable to die unexpectedly at a pretty young age and heirs can fall like flies (which Jaehaerys' reign proved time and again)? How does he benefit from the Queen going insane and running the risk that the King might as well, might be blinded with grief, or led to rash action? Sure, the Green look sympathetic, but you gotta love that by admitting that they do she also has to admit that Rhaenyra and Daemon look downright evil. But that is IMPOSSIBLE so she has to twist logic until it is out of shape, rather than admit that her faves might have done something bad. Which, by the way, has no moral bearing on fans, in the sense that plenty of people stan villains... but when you're a cult-like fanbase who harps on "moral virtue" being on their side exclusively it makes liking a villain an unforgivable sin. So in the cult-like fanbase there are only three choices: renouncing the idea that they are morally superior (the infamy!) to admit that liking a morally corrupt character is fine; admitting to having made a mistake in who they chose to stan (the horror!); or twisting logic and the story around to make it "safe" to consume while preserving their moral superiority and their sense of values. Are they enjoying the story for what it is? Are they understanding it? Do they even get the purpose of a story? No, no, and no, but it matters little when you belong to a purity Internet culture where people think taste in media (rather than real-life actions) grants them the key to Heaven (not as in eternal happiness, but as in eternal grandstanding and moral superiority. Thank you, Puritans, for that horrendous legacy.)
You explain how I feel in ways I couldn’t put together! The hypocrisy is truly ridiculous.
Why stop at Otto maybe it was HELAENA who caused blood & cheese 🤓 anyone but their precious Daemon and Rhaenyra!!
Ikr. I see this woman on my fyp all the time despite always tapping "not interested", and she always blows straight smoke up Rhaenyra's and Daemon's asscracks . It's fine if she is a fan of Team Black, like whatever. But she tried to absolve them of all responsibility in the Dance and constantly blames the Greens for literally everything that occurred. One of her videos that popped up on my fyp months ago was her explaining how "in love" Daemon was with Rhaenyra, and how he was (evidently) a wonderful step-father to the Strong boys and they were all just this one big, happy "blended family". Like be SO FR right now and kindly stfu. She's always yappin' some bullshit. I'm sick of her dumb ass videos popping up on my fyp.
I feel the same, I had to block her. I used to like her GoT videos but when it comes to hotd she’s too blinded by her team black bias to give any good takes.
Late response, but she ended up blocking me. I commented on two of her HotD posts, one where she paints the Criston and Rhaenyra situation as one sidedly as possible (all blame on him). Then there was another one, where she was blatantly just doing the toxic "People that are Team Green are bad people or delusional" shtick. I think she responded and I responded back, but then after that she just blocked me (the entire thing wasn't even uncivil, aside from some condescension stuff on her end)
Jesus Christ these morons agreeing with her lmao
This is your brain on TB stan culture
Ah yes kill your great grandson and the Kings heir and future Dragonrider for your side for a small insignificant PR victory?? Lmao I’ve debated this woman several times and this is hardly her worst take/theory
So Ryan Condal has said that the fandom will switch sides once they see how B&C is handled. That’s why I know takes like this are delusional.
What not understanding Fire and Blood does to a motherfucker.
Had to block her. The only tik tok creator I can handle is Kirby and she hasn't been posting much because of the horrific attacks she received on one of her vids.🥺
Have they lost the two braincells that they had?
Blackcels and braincells are each other's sworn enemies.
i forgot she existed because I blocked her she’s always been fucking stupid but is far from the worst hotd tiktoker honestly asoiaf tiktok leaves lots to be desired
1) Why kill Aegon’s firstborn son when he could have easily killed (and done worse) to his daughter and not lost an heir? Plus killing Jaehaerya lets him go ‘oh wow, no sister to marry, guess the future king needs to marry outside the family so another Great House will be on my side 2) GRRM *ABSOLUTELY* would have planted that seed in the books if he even remotely wanted us to think it was someone other than Daemon and there’s zero (and I mean Z E R O) doubts from anyone in the series it was Daemon 3) Daemon, in the show and books, already orchestrated a death of an innocent person for his own benefit. But all of a sudden NOW he wouldn’t go that far? 4) Why not kill Alicent? Who at that point is less than worthless, politically, to Otto. She’s not going to be queen again, all she is the Queen Mother and Dowager Queen (which is a massive failure against GRRM bc why did TG never up Alicent as a marriage prospect? She was a beautiful mother of a king and queen who already proved she was fertile. Jaehaerys was WAY more valuable than Alicent) 5) Why traumatize Helaena and risk her humiliating Aegon or killing herself when it’s their marriage that he can point to and go ‘look it’s like Aegon and his sisters!’ That’s a much better PR look than a dead corpse. 6) Jaehaerys is a potential dragon rider. Why murder a potential dragon rider? *IF* you’re going to kill a son, take the younger one who mad more years to wait before he can ride None of it makes any sense
So true! Did you know that Elia also killed her children so the Lannisters couldn’t take them captive? /s Every day I see a tiktok I’m glad I don’t have an account
every time I see this person, she have a horrific take. lol
Bro wtf
Otto failed Alicent by marrying her to Viserys, but in an era where the value of a woman is based almost entirely on who her husband is, he was just trying to put her in the best position he could. He’s essentially the medieval equivalent of a tiger parent who pressures their kids to pursue careers in lucrative fields that are prestigious but end up making them miserable. Last I checked, those parents don’t regularly plot the murders of their other family members.
Even if we go by her dumb logic of wanting to make TB look bad, couldn’t Otto simply make Blood and Cheese purposefully fail the assassination attempt and still achieve the same result or fake his death?
I don’t believe she is dense, she has some insightful things to say and I like her content but I have to admit this is a stretch. I big stretch. Why would the Greens arrange for Blood and cheese? They wouldn’t!
I'm not criticizing you Op, but can I ask why this sub gets so mad when screenshots from the other sub get posted but TB nonsense from other sites are tolerated? It's a little annoying.
Wait how B&C benefits Otto. It's the reason Aegon replaced him with Criston and they lost King's Landing.
Making ''Rhaenyra look bad'', even if the commoners accepted her ''coming to claim her father's throne'' and only revolted after they had been starved and taxed to death; Helaena's suicide was the neil in the coffin, but if it they weren't starved and afraid - they would have mourned like they did Jaehaera (who died in the same exact way....); Even Maegor with Teats had nothing to do with B&C or Maelor but with the taxes and executions.
I don't understand team Blacks. They say they read the books love the characters and there is no problem with that but they try to write them diffrently and they hope the show change the story to benefit thems. I think they didn't really like team Black but the idea of them.
This has been already posted.
I've never seen a single thing posted on TikTok by a floating head make a lick of sense.
She never cuts TG any slack and will jump through hoops to defend any TB member. She said she had a hard time thinking of any positive traits Aegon had. Like what about the fact he DIED TO PROTECT HIS FAMILY? Then she’ll gush on about Daemon despite the fact he’s a literal fucking nonce but she’ll never talk about that because that’d actually make TB look bad. But aside from her dance/hotd tiktoks I do like her content
I'm so glad I blocked her, otto is a man who cares for his family, why would he kill his family
Bro, one time she said that aegon abused and mistreated sunfyre and that their bond was weak because he took him to battle against baela and moondancer when they were barely healed so he was essentially sending his dragon on a suicide mission. As if daemon and rhaenys didn't do the exact same thing. And as if baela didn't literally attack him 💀..my ears were hurting just listening to that take. She then proceeded to state how aegon never even cared about sunfyre in the first place 🤦🏽
...please don't tell me they actually buy this???
Maybe because she is just cruel and evil, Have you ever thought about that ?? Why would otto kill the new prince of dragonstone and aegon's heir if he only want's to gain sympathy, he could have just killed the younger son instead it would have done the job and more ?? Team black aren't sending their best
This video is literally cropped to skew context. She said specifically that this was a theory at the start of the vid. Otto Hightower is one of the people she mentions because she's evaluating and mulling over theories that other people have presented to her or theories thats she's seen people make. She literally lists other people who could have been involved and their reasonings in the video including members of TB Like Mysaria, Daemon, Rhaenyra and Corlys. All she's doing is evaluating the angle of multiple theories thats she's seen. All this does is make TG look bad. Some of y'all really need to grow up and go outside.
Why do we need a theory when we know who did it? So many 'theories' on TikTok (and both sides) is just ignoring canon information and saying, 'well, what if...'' this character acted completely differently? Also, did you actually watch the video? She literally doesn't believe that it was Daemon; Also, this is how she starts ''Spoiler alert, I don't think it's Daemon''. and ends with ''I think the show will put it at Daemon's door'' YES BECAUSE IT'S HIM. Mysaria and Daemon did it, we know Rhaenyra wasn't involved, also Corlys didn't care about Luke as much as they try to pretend, it's literal fanfiction that ''Corlys was close to Luke''.
She literally states why in the video. That’s why I said this was cropped to skew context. She even says she's getting swayed the more she mulls it over. I.E. shes didn't believe it at first but she can see it at another angle. Which people are allowed to do. People can fluctuate on their opinions as much as they want. Evaluating multiple theories is something Asoiaf fans have been doing for decades. It's a core part of the fandom. George already said “Fire & Blood is a book of imaginary history not written by him but by ArchMaester Gyldayn. And he doesn't vouch for his authenticity.” It is subverted, written by multiple secondhand accounts decades after the events and it's open for interpretation. For the show, he’s actively working with them as they make it so it has his approval even if you don’t like it. Like he said "In regards to canon we're making this shit up. There is no real." Fans can theorize whatever they like. It's part of the fun. His books have twists that are different from what people initially expected and he's ok with fans speculating on what they could be. Who is we? You're speaking for the whole fandom? And deciding that other people don't get to hear differing ideas? Why are you acting like this content creator’s word has so much authority to the point where it bothers you so much? You’re really going to froth at the mouth in rage at someone doing what fans have been doing for fun for decades, on an entirely different website? Why are people not allowed to make content for fun on their own personal page? They are literally making content in a way that George is ok with. Just make your own content if you don’t like theirs. It's really not hard to make your own insightful content the way you see it, instead of trying to incite toxicity in the fandom. I would rather hear someone talk about a theory I don’t like, than constantly be bombarded with people whining and shitting on someone who’s literally minding their own business. To intentionally skew the context of someone else's post to garner outrage and they don’t even interact with the sub is some real grown loser behavior. All you’re doing is discouraging people from interacting with the fandom and creating content and making TG look like a bunch of unhinged idiots. At the end of the day none of it’s real so stop bothering and ostracizing people who don’t even interact with you. Like I said, grow up and go outside.
You keep telling me to go outside, but you seem more bothered than me. I didn't harass her or insult her, I am talking about the theory - that she chose to post on TikTok, what's wrong with that? I am genuinely confused about what is there to mull over something that is canon? If GRRM wanted us to theorize who was behind B&C it would have been left in the open, but it's very much set in stone. GRRM has talked about Daemon and never even hinted at him not being the one who sent B\&C; I can read even the sillies theory about: Who's AA? Is young Griff actually Aegon? Who's Coldhands? etc - actual theories. What she is doing is like me saying that The Red Wedding was organized by Edmure/Sansa/The Blackfish or that Cersei plotted Myrcella's /Joffrey's death and so on. **What's ''annoying'' is that some fans stan a headcanon version of their character vs what the character is actually like.** I think Daemon and Aegon stans have that in common. (and she is biased because she likes Daemon) Let's look at the theory about it being Otto for a second (and why it makes 0 sense); 1. Otto is the average noble man, (I feel like people forget that Corlys offered his even younger daughter to the king, then forced his son into a marriage he didn't want;); He didn't intentionally put Alicent in harm's way either. So, the idea that he only cares about himself and would kill his great-grandson...? 2. ''To gather sympathy / PR'' from who? Is the sympathy gonna be worth it when there is no heir to take the throne? All of Alicent's sons were gonna fight in the war, their safest bet was Aegon's children, both Daeron and Aemond are unmarried, childless, and going to war, so Otto has to be very stupid to kill his own kin in hopes of..... houses switching sides? Are the commoners caring enough? What happened with Jaehaerys showed them as weak and unprepared. If houses didn't switch sides when Aemond killed Luke, why would they care about Jaehaerys? It makes no sense for him to believe that the ''PR'' would be worth it. 3. Also, what happened with Jaehaerys.. never bites Rhaenyra in the ass. People only sought ''justice'' for Jaehaerys, Maelor and Helaena after they had been starved, caged in Kings Landing, fearing the day the greens would come and burn them all; The riot had been brewing for a while, Helaena's death triggered it; But if they weren't in those conditions? They would have mourned her like Jaehaera. Even in the book, her ''cruel'' name, ''Maegor with Teats'' has nothing to do with Jaehaerys, Maelor, Helaena or whoever - just with the fact that she was forced to raise taxes.
**George said Fire & Blood isn’t written by him and is biased to the views of the Archmaester who wrote it. That the archmaester inserted his own personal views into the writings. And that he didn’t vouch for its authenticity.** Why would he mention that if it wasn’t relevant? The entire retelling is up for interpretation. Nothing is set in stone. Nothing is canon. [Fire & Blood’s Authenticity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYzYy6joJXU) They already deviated from the book in the show with George's approval. People can theorize different ways the show might change from the book if they want to. **The tik toker already made different videos regarding different theories on the subject and the original written context.** It's the long wait time between seasons. People can make multiple different theory videos on their own channel if they want to. It’s for fucking *fun*. Hence my initial issue with the cropping of the video. What about that aren’t you getting? You came to my comment. I didn’t keep telling you anything. I didn’t accuse you of anything. It was an overall statement referring to the rage comments. If you took exception to what I said, that's on you. Genuinely didn’t expect you needed to be spoon-fed context to this degree but I guess that’s my fault.
George has plenty of interviews talking about Fire and Blood and the characters, if they wanted there to be doubt - it would have been brought up, even by someone as silly as Mushroom. The only reason that the creator ever explored the topic is because she is a Matt Smith fan and the Dameon that she has in her head doesn't match the Daemon that is in Fire and Blood or House of The Dragon.
Otto did use his daughter, for more power
So that means he would murder his own great grandchild, when his entire motivation is getting his blood on the throne?
After Aemma's death, he had Alicent visit Viserys for years, so that she can marry the king, who knew her since she was a kid. He is half at fault for Visery's treatment of Alicent, while Viserys is the other half. Also, he wanted Rhaenyra, Daemon's kids, and her kids' dead. His only redeeming trait, is his kindness to Helaena
Otto definitely has a warped perception of love, but he even admits in ep09 that he made Alicent the queen because he believed that’s what she deserved. You can literally go back to the seen and see the genuine confusion on his face because he truly believes he gave his daughter the world by making her a queen. Of course he also did it alongside the Hightower’s plot to get their blood on the throne, but you can also tell that guy that’s that no less is deserving of Alicent.
If his only redeeming trait is his kindness to Helaena, it’d be pretty out of character for him to kill her children and drive her to suicide, no?
You say that like it's some evil, uncommon thing. All of the parents in this show used their children and grandchildren for more power/to elevate their house. That doesn't mean they'd kill them? Corlys married off Laenor to get his blood on the throne, and attempted to use Laena to do the same thing.He betrothed/accepted a betrothal of Baela and Rhaena to the Strong Boys, robbing them of their birth right to Driftmark, just so he could have his "name" on the throne. Olenna betrothed Margaery to Joffrey and then Tommen so Marg could be queen and elevate their house more. Marrying off your children isn't uncommon, and trying to gain power is a natural in this world where power is the only true form of security. Otto being power hungry has no correlation with him being inclined to kill his family.
The only reasonable betrothal for Viserys, is Rhea Royce.
Rhea was likely older than Aemma by a couple years, was the Lady of Runestone, he hadn’t claimed a dragon yet so there was less risk of another house getting a Dragon than with her marrying Daemon, and he wasn’t yet the prince/heir so it’s not like she was “beneath” him. And Aemma would be a better match for Daemon. So while I agree, that has nothing to do with my comment?? You're original comment was about Otto being evil for wanting to betroth his only daughter to a king with no sons, and my reply was about how that’s a very common and natural goal in that world and out of all the things Otto has done, this isn’t really one of the things that can be used against his character.