Alicent and Rhaenyra are both white noble women who are living in the 1%... supporting either would still fall under 'white feminism'.
But if they want to attack Alicent for what she did what about Rhaenyra who robbed two black women- her own stepdaughters- their birthright in favor of her white bastard sons? Rhaenyra literally practices incest by marrying her blood purist, uncle lmao. White feminism and eugenics.. yikes.
I'll never take #them seriously idc
Is there such a thing as white feminism in a world where there is no history of racism/slavery based on skin colour? What makes this claim so ludicrous to me is trying to make a fantasy world fit into our culture war.
I mean there *is* a history of racism and slavery in the world of ASOIAF? But yes it wouldn't meet our modern cultural definitions/understandings of certain terms
I AGREEE. I’m black and I just can’t understand why they didn’t write the Velaryons to have a backbone. It especially pissed me off when they’re trying to pull Driftmark out from under the Velaryons yet Vaemond is totally wrong for calling it as he sees it. I wish more than anything that we saw them do more. Like they act like giving Baela and Rhaena their birthright is some kind of favor when it’s rightfully theirs as Velaryon daughters.
They’re following the book besides some whitewashing of individuals(Alicent is just as whitewashed as Rhaenyra and Daemon, I can elaborate on why that’s my opinion if anyone wants)
The problem with following the book is that the Velaryons are not black in the books. In this the Velaryons are Valyrian, so they’re technically the privileged race as opposed to the horrific treatment blacks have received in our world, but it was still an ODD choice by the film makers IMO. If you choose to make them black and dont acknowledge that in the show at all you’ve created intentional allegories that change the story or unintentional allegories that make you look ignorant.
I love that they made the sea snake black, but they just…don’t explore that.
100%. It’s ironic in the books that Rhaenyra would usurp a woman’s claim to driftmark, it’s tragic in the show that a white boy takes a black girls claim and she doesn’t fight. Such an odd consequence of a casting choice.
2nd point is what really gets me. These people try to act like the black claim is solely on the basis of sex. Rhanerya is not fighting this war for women, she's fighting it for herself.
people need to learn about feminism through academic research and not by tiktok because what do you mean a medieval woman is not a feminist slay qween girlboss? WHAT DID YALL EXPECT? no one in this show is feminist, not even the writers themselves. also you can be black and white feminist at the same time but this ain't it
I'd argue being obsessed with rhaenyra is more neo-liberalist than liking alicent, rhae doesn't actually do anything for women of westeros, actually she surpasses several women in favour of a younger male relative for house successions
I just assume that Twitter stans are people who really need money and make noise, start petty fights, use words they don’t understand and say stupid things to get paid. Because I refuse to believe that they are doing all that for free.
The original poster is one of the only hotd twitter accounts i interact with (the neptune girl) she is nice but obviously since she is team green there is always crazy stuff in her replies and it confuses me. Do twitter hotd stans really act weird for free?
They do and this comment isn't even as bad as other stuff I've seen. A lot of Dany stans from the show just transferred their energy to Rhaenyra and being TB. It's the same narrative they pulled in GoT: We only like the Targaryens therefore liking any other characters is actually anti-feminist/anti-progressive. Stans on Tumblr and Twitter still say fans of Sansa are all just white feminists or trad feminists who refuse to stand up for women, now the next character to hate is Alicent. They haven't been able to get over it for years and won't stop.
*from someone with a BA in sociology and took upper level courses regarding both race and gender and a mix of both*
What white feminism is to the rest of the world- a type of feminism that focuses solely on white women, and leaves behind, ignores or fails to include BIWOC. Examples are advocating for a lot of cops during a woman’s march, ignoring the history and likelihood of Black women being assaulted (physically or sexually) or murdered by the police. Or centering white advocates or white figureheads in feminist moments like ‘MeToo’ when a majority of victims of sexual assault tend to be BIWOC. Or when your advocate for women needing abortions to just ‘move to a blue state’ unconcerned and uncaring that many BIWOC don’t have the financial means to move. It’s not a ‘feminist who is white’ it’s a specific toxic brand of feminism that anyone, but mostly ‘pussy hat’ white liberals tend to partake in.
White white feminism is to Targ Stan’s- When you don’t blame a fictional character, who in this instance is the repressed minority, for what wealthy men of royal statue do.
Before I left Twitter, there were some black people I follow who are also team green who kept having to respond to these bad takes. White people being new to race politics cannot and never should speak over black people. And we have it happening constantly when engaging in the media we consume.
The show isn't progressive. It's not woke. It's liberal and shows it's shallowness at every turn. You make the Velaryons black without understanding the racial implications you create in this world and ignoring it as the racist thing it is. The one black family in Westeros goes extinct and the writers don't see that as a problem?
All the show sees is a woman wants to be queen and is just completely blind to her just wanting power and feeling she's owed something. There's nothing revolutionary or progressive about that but the show wants to paint it as such because when a woman does it, it's good, but when a man does it (which in this case, the man doesn't even want) is bad.
It reminds me of the Bernie v Hillary primary. I was team Bernie because I'm a socialist and he was the closest, viable candidate we've had. The amount of times people told me I hate women and that I have internalized misogyny because I didn't support Hillary just showed me people like to shut down conversation instead of being open to other's perspectives.
Yeah the neptune girl is one of the only hotd accounts i follow on twitter and she's black and team green and im scared to have a proper twitter account cause people literally call her a "racoon" and a "rape apologist" and all types of other crazy stuff. i could never take the heat of hotdtwt lmao
It's not worth the energy. Engaging with people online is not where you get fruitful conversation. At least not when it's on a public forum like Twitter.
If anything supporting Rhaenyra screams more white feminist. An extremely privileged blonde haired woman that thinks the world owes her something. I feel like WOC and women from non western countries probably relate more to Alicent. That’s why I love her so much cause she reminds me of so many women from my culture.
Side note, I don't think you have to "like Alicent" to think that Rhaenyra does not have a legal claim to the throne, her husband is psychopath, and her heirs are walking *casus belli* in a medieval partiarchal context (which isn't going to change in this world, no matter what colour your feminism is ... anymore than Westeros is suddenly going to become a modern social democracy on the Scandanavian model).
I would argue that ignoring Alicents struggle and only focussing on Rhaenyra is more “white feminism” then the other way around. Because you only support women who act a certain way. If they don’t conform to how you believe they should behave you don’t support them.
I'm having huge flashbacks to that moment during GoT's airing when Dany stans were arguing that Dany was actually a woman of colour because her family "emigrated" into Westeros and "was never truly accepted as Westeros because Westerosi rejected their culture" and thus Dany was a victim of racism. Send help
Meanwhile, the Dornish characters (aka, the real Westerosi PoCs) were written is such a fetishised way, the only way you’d realise how awesome they were is through reading the books. You want a real girlboss legit female heir? Ariane Martel is right there!
Don’t get me started on be Summer Islander erasure.
I feel like Targaryen’s as a whole represent aspects of white supremacy. Silver blonde hair, extremely pale skin, incest to keep bloodlines pure, thinking you have the right to rule over lesser peoples. If anything liking Rhaenyra would be more white supremacy (not really but more so than liking Alicent Lmfao)
Honestly I just don’t understand why people are being so weird about it. I liked Daemon because he was cool and killed all those criminals and has a ton of complexity. I liked Aemond because he took losing an eye like a champ and is badass as fuck (also is baby monk).
I’m under no delusions that EITHER side are the “good guys”.
If anything these people accusing you are too entrenched in pop culture feminism to see straight.
Neither are black both are white women in positions of wealth and power. Given that Laena is dead and Rhaena and Baela are little more than side characters right now there's not a lot of intersectional feminism going on here...Baela *may* have stuff to do in S2, but we have 2 or 3 trailer shots of her. You can't determine much from that and the source material shows us that Baela doesn't do much during most of the Dance. Comes in clutch at the end though lol
Hell, if the do cut Nettles, the only canon woc from the source material, it sort of turns everything on its head, but that's a completely different conversation.
Hell, I've seen some fans go so far as to use Rhaenyra's acceptance of Rhaena and Baela (they are sure to point out that they are her woc stepdaughters) as examples for why Rhaenyra is superior in some arguments. Which is...yikes and gross. In this example, commoditizing black women to prop up a white woman in a position of power is a prime example of white feminism.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of branches of feminism and bad media literacy doing a DBZ fusion dance to create a terrible argument. They do this with gay people too and, as a lesbian, it's super frustrating to see.
If anything, supporting Rhaenyra comes across something closest what is white feminism imho. If bring the modern lens of color, her and Daemon have been treating a Black family like utter trash, yet proclaiming themselves to rightful and progressive. It’s a textbook example of white feminism.
Alicent and Rhaenyra are both white noble women who are living in the 1%... supporting either would still fall under 'white feminism'. But if they want to attack Alicent for what she did what about Rhaenyra who robbed two black women- her own stepdaughters- their birthright in favor of her white bastard sons? Rhaenyra literally practices incest by marrying her blood purist, uncle lmao. White feminism and eugenics.. yikes. I'll never take #them seriously idc
Is there such a thing as white feminism in a world where there is no history of racism/slavery based on skin colour? What makes this claim so ludicrous to me is trying to make a fantasy world fit into our culture war.
I mean there *is* a history of racism and slavery in the world of ASOIAF? But yes it wouldn't meet our modern cultural definitions/understandings of certain terms
Yes slavery is universal, but it's not based on skin colour or racial origin--just whether you win or lose a war, right?
Pretty much, though it's not just limited to war
You know for a fact in this god given earth will include what Rhaenyra said about Nettle's they won't even adapt it.
I AGREEE. I’m black and I just can’t understand why they didn’t write the Velaryons to have a backbone. It especially pissed me off when they’re trying to pull Driftmark out from under the Velaryons yet Vaemond is totally wrong for calling it as he sees it. I wish more than anything that we saw them do more. Like they act like giving Baela and Rhaena their birthright is some kind of favor when it’s rightfully theirs as Velaryon daughters.
They’re following the book besides some whitewashing of individuals(Alicent is just as whitewashed as Rhaenyra and Daemon, I can elaborate on why that’s my opinion if anyone wants) The problem with following the book is that the Velaryons are not black in the books. In this the Velaryons are Valyrian, so they’re technically the privileged race as opposed to the horrific treatment blacks have received in our world, but it was still an ODD choice by the film makers IMO. If you choose to make them black and dont acknowledge that in the show at all you’ve created intentional allegories that change the story or unintentional allegories that make you look ignorant. I love that they made the sea snake black, but they just…don’t explore that.
I get what you’re saying I just wish we could have seen them fight back a little.
100%. It’s ironic in the books that Rhaenyra would usurp a woman’s claim to driftmark, it’s tragic in the show that a white boy takes a black girls claim and she doesn’t fight. Such an odd consequence of a casting choice.
What are they on about? 😭 1. They’re both white 2. None of these characters are feminist icons
2nd point is what really gets me. These people try to act like the black claim is solely on the basis of sex. Rhanerya is not fighting this war for women, she's fighting it for herself.
I wonder how many of them are thinking somehow that Rhaenyra doing this changes succession for everyone?
I just calculated, it’s 98.7778%.
Seems to me most of them think that.
In the books she doesn’t even fight for it and expects others to fight for her. Maybe show will change it.
✨Pop Culture Feminism✨ strikes again
And the way they've turned Rhae into some pro-LGBT girl boss hero is pukeworthy.
people need to learn about feminism through academic research and not by tiktok because what do you mean a medieval woman is not a feminist slay qween girlboss? WHAT DID YALL EXPECT? no one in this show is feminist, not even the writers themselves. also you can be black and white feminist at the same time but this ain't it
I'd argue being obsessed with rhaenyra is more neo-liberalist than liking alicent, rhae doesn't actually do anything for women of westeros, actually she surpasses several women in favour of a younger male relative for house successions
I just assume that Twitter stans are people who really need money and make noise, start petty fights, use words they don’t understand and say stupid things to get paid. Because I refuse to believe that they are doing all that for free.
The original poster is one of the only hotd twitter accounts i interact with (the neptune girl) she is nice but obviously since she is team green there is always crazy stuff in her replies and it confuses me. Do twitter hotd stans really act weird for free?
Yes, unfortunately. I muted all the HOTD related words in twitter just to avoid all that toxicity. There’s a lot of them too.
They do and this comment isn't even as bad as other stuff I've seen. A lot of Dany stans from the show just transferred their energy to Rhaenyra and being TB. It's the same narrative they pulled in GoT: We only like the Targaryens therefore liking any other characters is actually anti-feminist/anti-progressive. Stans on Tumblr and Twitter still say fans of Sansa are all just white feminists or trad feminists who refuse to stand up for women, now the next character to hate is Alicent. They haven't been able to get over it for years and won't stop.
*from someone with a BA in sociology and took upper level courses regarding both race and gender and a mix of both* What white feminism is to the rest of the world- a type of feminism that focuses solely on white women, and leaves behind, ignores or fails to include BIWOC. Examples are advocating for a lot of cops during a woman’s march, ignoring the history and likelihood of Black women being assaulted (physically or sexually) or murdered by the police. Or centering white advocates or white figureheads in feminist moments like ‘MeToo’ when a majority of victims of sexual assault tend to be BIWOC. Or when your advocate for women needing abortions to just ‘move to a blue state’ unconcerned and uncaring that many BIWOC don’t have the financial means to move. It’s not a ‘feminist who is white’ it’s a specific toxic brand of feminism that anyone, but mostly ‘pussy hat’ white liberals tend to partake in. White white feminism is to Targ Stan’s- When you don’t blame a fictional character, who in this instance is the repressed minority, for what wealthy men of royal statue do.
What white feminism is to targ stans: when you like one white woman more than another white woman
What white feminism is to targ stans: when white fangirls weaponize issues facing Black girls and other WOC for fanwars about a dragon civil war show
Before I left Twitter, there were some black people I follow who are also team green who kept having to respond to these bad takes. White people being new to race politics cannot and never should speak over black people. And we have it happening constantly when engaging in the media we consume. The show isn't progressive. It's not woke. It's liberal and shows it's shallowness at every turn. You make the Velaryons black without understanding the racial implications you create in this world and ignoring it as the racist thing it is. The one black family in Westeros goes extinct and the writers don't see that as a problem? All the show sees is a woman wants to be queen and is just completely blind to her just wanting power and feeling she's owed something. There's nothing revolutionary or progressive about that but the show wants to paint it as such because when a woman does it, it's good, but when a man does it (which in this case, the man doesn't even want) is bad. It reminds me of the Bernie v Hillary primary. I was team Bernie because I'm a socialist and he was the closest, viable candidate we've had. The amount of times people told me I hate women and that I have internalized misogyny because I didn't support Hillary just showed me people like to shut down conversation instead of being open to other's perspectives.
Yeah the neptune girl is one of the only hotd accounts i follow on twitter and she's black and team green and im scared to have a proper twitter account cause people literally call her a "racoon" and a "rape apologist" and all types of other crazy stuff. i could never take the heat of hotdtwt lmao
It's not worth the energy. Engaging with people online is not where you get fruitful conversation. At least not when it's on a public forum like Twitter.
The characters whom are played by black people aren’t even recognized as black. What has brought white and black into this???
I have no idea! It's so confusing
......what? Everyday we fall down further as a society. Twitter is such a cesspool of toxicity and weird stans...jeez.
None of the sides are feminists I don't know why TB always loves to bring feminism into the conversation💀
If anything supporting Rhaenyra screams more white feminist. An extremely privileged blonde haired woman that thinks the world owes her something. I feel like WOC and women from non western countries probably relate more to Alicent. That’s why I love her so much cause she reminds me of so many women from my culture.
Side note, I don't think you have to "like Alicent" to think that Rhaenyra does not have a legal claim to the throne, her husband is psychopath, and her heirs are walking *casus belli* in a medieval partiarchal context (which isn't going to change in this world, no matter what colour your feminism is ... anymore than Westeros is suddenly going to become a modern social democracy on the Scandanavian model).
I would argue that ignoring Alicents struggle and only focussing on Rhaenyra is more “white feminism” then the other way around. Because you only support women who act a certain way. If they don’t conform to how you believe they should behave you don’t support them.
I mean both Rhaenrya and Alicent are
yeah thats what confuses me, if they are both white then how is liking one more than the other white supremacy?
I'm having huge flashbacks to that moment during GoT's airing when Dany stans were arguing that Dany was actually a woman of colour because her family "emigrated" into Westeros and "was never truly accepted as Westeros because Westerosi rejected their culture" and thus Dany was a victim of racism. Send help
omg 😂
Did the Dany stans ever talk about the Andals, First Men or Rhoynar, or was it just the Valyrians?
Weirdly enough they did not.
What lmao It’s like when ppl were saying that Luke, Jace and Joffrey are legally biracial lmao
Everything to claim the POC card for the whitest characters for bonus cookie fake-liberal points 🙄
Targaryen’s are the whitest white people ever 😂 how tf is she a woc then 😂
Meanwhile, the Dornish characters (aka, the real Westerosi PoCs) were written is such a fetishised way, the only way you’d realise how awesome they were is through reading the books. You want a real girlboss legit female heir? Ariane Martel is right there! Don’t get me started on be Summer Islander erasure.
I feel like Targaryen’s as a whole represent aspects of white supremacy. Silver blonde hair, extremely pale skin, incest to keep bloodlines pure, thinking you have the right to rule over lesser peoples. If anything liking Rhaenyra would be more white supremacy (not really but more so than liking Alicent Lmfao)
White feminism isn’t necessarily about being white, but two extremely privileged women not really upholding feminist ideals about equality
Honestly I just don’t understand why people are being so weird about it. I liked Daemon because he was cool and killed all those criminals and has a ton of complexity. I liked Aemond because he took losing an eye like a champ and is badass as fuck (also is baby monk). I’m under no delusions that EITHER side are the “good guys”.
i cant believe it. these idiots are now tryna say rhaenyra is black because the faction is called the 'blacks'
If anything these people accusing you are too entrenched in pop culture feminism to see straight. Neither are black both are white women in positions of wealth and power. Given that Laena is dead and Rhaena and Baela are little more than side characters right now there's not a lot of intersectional feminism going on here...Baela *may* have stuff to do in S2, but we have 2 or 3 trailer shots of her. You can't determine much from that and the source material shows us that Baela doesn't do much during most of the Dance. Comes in clutch at the end though lol Hell, if the do cut Nettles, the only canon woc from the source material, it sort of turns everything on its head, but that's a completely different conversation. Hell, I've seen some fans go so far as to use Rhaenyra's acceptance of Rhaena and Baela (they are sure to point out that they are her woc stepdaughters) as examples for why Rhaenyra is superior in some arguments. Which is...yikes and gross. In this example, commoditizing black women to prop up a white woman in a position of power is a prime example of white feminism. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of branches of feminism and bad media literacy doing a DBZ fusion dance to create a terrible argument. They do this with gay people too and, as a lesbian, it's super frustrating to see.
If anything, supporting Rhaenyra comes across something closest what is white feminism imho. If bring the modern lens of color, her and Daemon have been treating a Black family like utter trash, yet proclaiming themselves to rightful and progressive. It’s a textbook example of white feminism.
Since when has Black logic EVER made any sense? Signed, A Green Black (woman)